The Disturbing Views of God and Suffering in the Book of Job
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
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Many people have a rough idea about the story of Job, the incredibly wealthy and righteous man whom God allows "the Satan" (who is not the Devil, btw) to deprive of all he has (including killing his ten children) and plague with horrible pain, in order to see if he will stay righteous. Most readers don't realize, however, that the vast majority of the book comes from a different author who has a completely different view of why people suffer. In this episode we talk about what both authors have to say and discuss honestly and forthrightly whether either view of suffering is at all convincing; in addition, we talk about why the views of God in this book can be so disturbing.
Megan asks Bart:
- Did you ever teach the Hebrew Bible?
- We usually stick with the NT and early Christian writings…why is it important to discuss this particular book of the OT?
- What is the book of Job about?
- You suggested the title for the episode: could you answer it for us? Why does no one understand it?
- If people do understand that these are two different sources, how do they try to reconcile the differences?
- Why do you think people take the much longer, poetic section as secondary to the beginning and end verses?
- Do the two sources have the same message?
- How does the poetic source explain suffering?
- What does that end section give us?
- Are there any similar unsettling points in the narrative?
- Thinking about the deaths of the children, do people argue that this is the fault of the Satan figure?
- Where then did the Christian understanding of Satan come from?
- What do you think the take away message is of the book.
- How do most modern Christians understand the book of Job?
To say that God tested Job would imply that 1) God can't see inside someone's mind and 2) God can't see the future.
Great question! OBVIOUSLY god is after something else! oh the depths of the infinite
its' also curious that Satan does not know this about humans at this point..
I was a JW and we were taught that there were things god prevented himself from knowing
@@cygnustsp but the only reason to do any test is to see what happens.
@@hamobu right, so god decided not to read Job's heart or see the future, he left everything up to Job and Satan.
I was always struck by the idea that Job lost his family and later God replaced them and everything was fine again. Obviously the writer has never lost anyone close to him. There's always a hole in your heart.
My thoughts exactly.
Not true....there are 40 chapters of pain....the issue is perspective....the finite meets the infinite. This is the perspective most people miss since they cannot comprehend it. Job personally met it.
@@1bengrubb senseless suffering to make a point. This is Hellenistic thinking. This will always be an issue with thinking people.
If humans can't comprehend then why this stupid test@@1bengrubb
In ancient times infant mortality was very common. It was not difficult to come up with the idea of having more children to make up for the lost ones. Regardless, it was a very easy way of ending the narrative and not entering into complications.
Spare a thought for Mrs Job. All the pregnancies and natural births. She was bereaved of her children like Job was. When, in the immeasurable grief and desolation she asked why Job didn't curse God to get things over with, she was called a fool.
And when Job's fortunes and family were restored she had to go through all the pregnancies and births again.
Just because God and Satan had a little wager about a man's loyalty.
To me, that is pretty bloody callous...
What do you mean"Go through the births again"?.... Being pregnant was a blessing back then..... Perhaps not today
Jobs wife was one of the people I used to look forward to meeting in Heaven. I’m no longer convinced there is such a place, so I’ll just have to invent our conversation I guess.
@@1bengrubb We usually perceive pregnancy in ancient times through the patriarchal male perspective. I'm sure that, just like today, pregnancy back then occurred in a wide variety of circumstances: in some of them, it would be viewed as a blessing; in others, it would be viewed as very burdensome and unfortunate.
@@1bengrubb Try going through 20 pregnancies as fast as humanly possible and see what a blessing you think it is. I expect some of the children came from concubines or slaves though.
@@lawsonj39 no...family was just more important in that culture than ours. A big family was status---for the woman as well---she viewed the world through the patriarchal male perspective.. Replacement rate was something like 6 kids. A big family was a fortress, an economic engine, source of connections, the commenter is just ignorant of the culture. All through the bible children are a blessing never a burden. Happy is the man his quiver full. The first command "be fruitful and multiply" defines the culture.
This podcast has changed my life
Mine too. For the better !
I wouldn't go that far, but I do love it. In a world of culture wars, genocides, and ecological destruction, it is such a treasure to find a small space for intelligent discussion between two respectful and empathetic people.
Will your death change your life?
@@tryme3969 I would say there's a good case for thinking that our knowledge that we are mortal (and the subsequent repression of that realisation) is indeed the major driver of our beliefs and perhaps the reason why we developed culture in the first place. In that sense death has shaped all our lives. It's a complicated story though...
JOB is not giving us the full story. He said "The thing which I greatly feared has come upon me." What did Job before Satan came? "In the days of my youth, when the SECRET OF GOD was upon my Tabernacle." Job is the oldest book in the Bible, and it's mysteries are very deep. Job 31:35 (31+35=66 book bible) "If my adversary had written a book, I would surely bind it as a crown to me." There is a lot more to say, but people respect a scholar, they don't respect an Esotericist.
Thank you for spreading information about the bible.
"The best cure for Christianity is reading the bible"
- Mark Twain
This is rarely sufficient, especially on people who were raised as children to believe their Bible is both (1) always wise, (2) full of mysteries. It creates a mindset of excessive generosity and provides a backup plan that makes it very impervious, even to contradictions, inconsistancies or obscurity. This is why sound epistemology or actual bible criticism is needed and more efficient. Not saying deconversion / deconstruction never happens by just reading the Bible, but it's rare, and usually requires a prior "breach", and "tools".
@@ackbooh9032is sufficient but no Christian will read it
Never understood this point. I've read the Bible all the way through twice and I haven't turned away from my faith because of it.
@@ackbooh9032 - it is extremely rare that they read it like a regular book, cover to cover, even if it takes a month or two. A couple of people calling themselves Christian have said they did (out of a thousand that I've asked) but weren't convincing as they could recall nothing beyond sunday school stories when asked.
As an agnostic, reading Job commands more of my respect for the Ancient Hebrew outlook, not less. It distills more reality than your average atheist tract. It's interested in life unmediated by human all too human defence mechanisms.
When I was a kid Job's story really confused me. It was the start of questioning the bible and religion. - - - - rocking that pink hair by the way!!!
The pink hair is a childish obscenity.
There’s a very funny episode in the second season of the wonderful show Good Omens that depicts the Job story, including angels perplexed that Job doesn’t seem too thrilled to hear God will be replacing his dead children with more children as a “reward.”
Best episode of season 2 by far.
"Apparently I need to create a whale"
I was just coming here to recommend that. Love that series
I just saw that for the first time last night.
Funny, witty and intelligent.
Then this afternoon I get this video in my You tube feed.
Coincidence, or AI algorithm at work?
I'm convinced it's the latter.
Sounds like an interesting show. I'll have to watch that when my wife is away. I think she'd have a stroke watching it.
I wish the whole series was actually just those Bible snippets! Id love to watch just that and the running commentary.
Reading Job as a young Christian opened up so many questions. Looking into Job helped close the door on Christianity for me.
Good for you. It's nicer out here in reality, isn't it?🙂
Why? Suffering is a part of life, and the book of Job helps teach us that not everything seems just all the time, but we have to trust in the process, and everything does have a purpose.
@@jacksonray3596 if you went through what job went through and you knew the petty reason God killed your entire family, would you still believe in a just God?
@@alvinyong9370 I’m not going to pretend like I understand everything. There is so much we can’t comprehend. Yes, I would still believe in a just God.
@@jacksonray3596 Apart from the story of Job and other killings ordered by God in the old testament, the most difficult part for me to believe in a just God is hell.
God basically used the Bill Cosby explanation. "I brought into this world, I'll take you out!"
And, just like Bill Cosby, the biblical god has been presented and believed to be a wonderful deity, but turned it to be quite horrible.
Too soon.
God replacing Jobs wife and children sound harsh (which it is) however, if you see them as possessions, non people, minor slaves, it changes the perspective.
Certainly not for the better
@@markc5015 very true. I am basing this off ancient Near East culture on how they viewed women and children.
Or if you assume they view women and children as we do today ( read job 29). Then you have more of a struggle here
@@anthonycraig274 Except that's not how the Bible treats losing children elsewhere. When Jacob believes Joseph was killed, he grieves bitterly and later on it's said that losing Benjamin would outright kill him. So no, children were not treated like mere possessions. I mean, if they were then God wouldn't even bothered with the whole "sacrifice Isaac" thing.
Job: what have I done to be punished?
YHVH: Fuck you, that’s what.
😂😂😂😂😂
Is god Donald Trump? His party has only one platform: F_ck you!
😂
Very good question....job violated the first commandment
Not being a theist that was my attitude to Job. But then I'm thankful to Christianity because at age of 15 I went to a church for the first time and I became an atheist before the end of the service.
I'm not a bible scholar. I do have a doctorate in clinical psychology, so that's the lens through which I look. After hearing and reading the views of non-apologist bible scholars for the last several years, here is what I personally believe. Given the people who came to power around the time of the bronze age collapse were most probably the most violent of warlords, they were probably akin to what we'd think of today as narcissists and psychopaths. We know sometimes humans were deified in the cultures of that time... and I suspect violent narcissists would have loved being deified. And if, as a lower status person, you had such a powerful warlord on your side, protecting you from other warlords, you probably became enmeshed with your own warlord's views and desires. If you didn't acquiesce to his demands, you'd either face his violent and capricious whims, or possibly lose his protection against other warlords. Over time, I suspect these types of power dynamics just became cultural norms. At some point we could use the modern construct of Stockholm Syndrome as a model for how lower status peoples would interact with their local strongman. To my way of thinking, this bronze age and post bronze age way of life was the context in which we happened to inherit our idea of who God is. So yes, when trying to contemplate why there is suffering in the world, and why we might lose control to outsiders, etc, at that time, they would have to reason based on these cultural memes and dynamics. Why do we suffer? Because we didn't do a good enough job of appeasing capricious warlords/gods. That's why. 🦋🧡🦋
Basically, Bible god is bipolar, a narcissist, etc.
@@jasonnelson316 - definitely, and don't forget drunken stepfather. Who else would create the cosmos and every creature within it but not build a fence around his two favorite trees and then blame the kids?
I suggest reading Domination and the Arts of Resistance: Hidden Transcripts by James C. Scott. Contrary to the Marxist insistence on "false consciousness", or convenient recapitulation of the life of a people in the culture bound frame of psychoanalysis, the empirical evidence suggests most subalterns are aware of their interests, and are not "gaslighted", "enmeshed" , or "fused" with respect to their self. Job is unlikely to be a moral homily devised by the elite of the time since it deals with an elite man in context. Rather, it deals with reality; unmediated, existential reality 21st century life experiences - to borrow from your argot- only as reaction formation.
❤
Read job 29 then tell me about warlords....
The four noble truths provide a solution to the problem of suffering. The reason why we suffer is because the universe is constantly changing, and our attachment to things can not keep up.
There are things we can do as humans to lessen suffering, and this is to live compassionately towards self and others. To live compassionately we must cultivate our mind by overcoming harmful thoughts, habits, and behaviors. This should be the point of all religions.
Thanks & as a Christian who's studied & learned much from Buddhism, the 2 systems have much in common & can complement each other IMHO. For more, see Sermon on the Mount & Thich Nhat Hanh's book, Living Buddha, Living Christ
Indeed, this is the point of the Book of Job. At the start, Job has no compassion. He admitted that he only did good in order to maximize his riches and reputation. He mocked people behind their backs and covered it up when people called him out so that no one would believe the accusers. He put homeless employees out on the street because he thought they were too dirty. He emotionally abused his children, and did not respect his daughters on the same level as his sons.
At the end of the book, he gives his daughters an inheritance on the same level as his sons, even though he is not duty-bound to. He does it out of love.
The book totally disregards the fate of the children, and so do all religious apologists. I find that terribly immoral
I really struggle with this book of the bible. Job is destroyed with God's consent...basically in a deal with Satan...and when Job wants to know why, he's treated abysmally. How can you not be absolutely terrified by a God like that? How can a person honestly love a God like that? He terrifies me.
I totally agree!
I think it’s important to start with an all loving god created a Very Good creation out of his love and created humans as sharers, helpers, and participaters in this divine creation. God gifts humans with free will. We are immature and fall. As we fall god grants us grace to save us. Suffering from illuminates and intensifies as we fall further from grace to keep us from losing ourselves completely. That’s not to say “kids with illness is to glorify god”. I would say that is a tragic consequence of the fall and we are able to recognize that as awful bc we inherently know they good in which things should be.
And an Omniscience God doesn't know what is going to happen ... can't really loose the bet. Gotta feel story for Satan
@@tookie36 - "The fall"? I'd say that it is Christianity that fell. Even in a legend like this, how can anybody else possibly be culpable for some perceived fault of Adam & Eve? What a terrible religion these tales spawned!
@@MossyMozart Christianity def fell. Everyone wants to use God for their own glory. The irony would be funny if it was so tragic.
I appreciated Bart's honest and accurate show of anger against - and disapproval of - God in his assessment here of the Book of Job. This is one of the first times I have seen Mr. Ehrman come flatly out in a revealed display of anger against God, and this is helpful and emboldening for me to do the same.
The lesson of the Book of Job is in how it teaches us to deal with the Problem of Evil. The takeaway is "Never ask that question." Problem solved!
This question is so important it’s one of the pillars of billions of peoples faith 😂 I think I interpreted Job differently than you
The lesson I learned from Bart ehrman and other theologians is never ask ANY question if you want to to keep your faith. Don't ask how bible came about, don't ask history of christianity, don't ask origin of trinity etc. You'll do pretty well.
I assume you are being sarcastic, since that does not solve anything.
This is the first time I've heard that the book of Job was actually two sources mashed together.
If you read any modern commentary on it, or even just read the introduction to it in an academic annotated Bible (say the Oxford Annotated Bible, or the Oxford Jewish Study Bible) it's one of the very first things that it will mention.
These discussions are invaluable for informing the masses
There was this one story I heard from a missionary when I was a kid, maybe 9 or 10 years old.
He was married and had like 9 kids or something, he had been an unbeliever while being married previously to a Christian woman. She tried to convert him, but he wasn't having any of it. So she prayed that God would "do whatever it takes to save him," and then she got cancer and died. *And he converted!*
So I grew up believing that if you wanted something hard enough, you had to be willing to sacrifice yourself (which makes sense, right?). So when tensions in my family were really high (because my parents were very abusive and some of my less cooperative siblings weren't having it, one of my brothers in particular), I'd literally pray for God to end my life if it meant that my death would result in my family coming to peace. And I prayed this for *years,* all throughout my teenage years especially.
As an adult, I now look back on that man's story as more terrifying than any horror film I've seen. Just the belief that God would take someone's life to break another person into submission is the most abusive thing I've ever heard of. I'm gonna question it, God. Sorry not sorry. (I don't actually believe in God anymore btw.)
😢❤
The God portrayed by religion doesn't necessarily represent the true God.
@@sam.246 I hear that the true God is a Scotsman
Job and Ecclesiastes might be the most existentialist books the Bible.
Book of Revelations to you; ‘fine, I am a children’s book’
@@potiphajerenyenje6870It's Revelation
Job and Ecclesiastes are the two books of the Bible that come the closest to "telling it like it is." That's the reason you'll rarely hear priests and pastors and rabbis quoting scripture from them.
The book of Job seems similar to the movie 'Trading Places' where the the rich brothers bet a dollar on how one guy will respond to sudden adversity and another to sudden fortune.
Yes, indeed.
Reminds me of Lincolns second inaugural address where he attempts to find meaning in the Civil War: "Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
I know this is not the focus but MEGAN!! Your glasses are AMAZING
The God portrayed in certain parts of the Hebrew Bible is clearly a sociopath. If I were still a Christian, I would have to adopt the view of Marcion.
Any similarities to Q in Star Trek TNG?
Bible is ill-devised literature.
_" If I were still a Christian, I would have to adopt the view of Marcion."_
Have you created another god/religion for yourself or of yourself?
Hell, it does not stop there: The New Testament has another sociopath torturing and murdering his begotten son to expel the sins of man. HOW BLOODY CRUEL and EVIL the father is. Even Abraham did not kill his son. The NT is based on a blood lust that has poisoned mankind for 2000 years.
@@John.Flower.ProductionsYou realize there are different views and interpretations right?? Your view isn’t the only one.
~19 minutes - The conversation about God testing Job, and Jews and Christians as an answer to suffering.
If God is all-knowing, why would he need to test anyone? He already knows the outcome. If he knows the outcome, and inflicts suffering on someone he knows will be faithful anyway, isn't that cruelty?
This are the obvious objections so it’s probably easy to assume there is a deeper meaning to be understood
It is, and the message of the Book of Job is "and what are you going to do about it?"
My favorite theological podcast - Bart is fantastic!
Glad you're here! - Social Media Team
The way Job gets new kids to replace the old ones makes me think it's a clue that the writer was not a parent, like maybe he was some kind of celibate priest or similar, because he didn't comprehend how horrifying a compromise that would be in actual reality.
no....the creator of the universe has personally explained to job his kids are not dead. --you just had to be there
@@1bengrubbYou were there!!??
@@JamesDirette no what I'm saying is you have to take in so much information to really understand what's going on. Job 29 tells us how much he loved his kids.... And at the very beginning of the book they are adults and he's still watching out for them. Job is exactly the same as we are today and the story is presenting all that....
@@1bengrubb how so? ... I thought a roof fell on them.
@@russellmiles2861 no no you have to think beyond this life. Death is not the end of existence and that's what Job learns in his exchange with God. His kids are not dead he'll see them again. Job in his mortality gains the perspective of eternal life. His whole perspective shifts. The pain of his loss is still there but now he knows it's temporary
It seems like the introduction is chronically overlooked. It starts with Job presuming the guilt of his sons and explicitly without any actual knowledge of it. Eventually, Job is confronted with being inescapably on the receiving end of that thinking, he handles it badly, and eventually claims to know the real whole truth even better than God. So, God slaps him down with how Job has never had all that knowledge he thinks he has and never will. Job repents for his presumptive thinking, confesses that he himself shares the deficiency he accuses of others, and repents. The whole gift of kids as restoration does seem weird to us today, but remembering conversations about family size with my rural ancestors while they still lived convinces me that it was not so strange not so long ago.
One of the reasons among many that I'm an atheist, and if there is a god, it's a cruel being, and i want nothing to do with it. Like he knows Job did absolutely nothing wrong. And then comes down on him for questioning his actions of cruelty.
It's literally a story of an all powerful being gaslighting someone. Just to prove a point.
well... no....we have an all powerful being that stops everything to respond to job.... what level does that put job on?
But if there is an All powerful cruel God. What does you not wanting anything to do with it even mean? If that being really is cruel it can force you to be with it for a literal eternity and not wanting to do anything with it means absolutely nothing in every sense of the word
@@Malik-lf6zj- WTF? God either does not exist or he is an asshole, pure and simple. Just ask the 100 million people who died in WWII.
@@Malik-lf6zj I totally agree with this sentiment, you would worship it out of pure self interest. I do think the Bible and the Quran depict this deity as evil, but if an evil deity is our god, then it would be in our best interest to worship it. Clearly the injunctions in both mandate believers to commit evil deeds by any normative definition. The atheist is not someone who says I do not want to worship evil, the atheist is one who says that natural error and contradictions within both the Bible and Quran clearly demonstrate that those who wrote these texts were neither omnipotent nor omniscient and therefore cannot be inspired or dictated by a deity with these qualities. The god of the Bible and the god of the Quran cannot exist.
@@1bengrubb well yes. you keep inserting "infinite" into your arguments but you don't seem to realize that this is also negates all of your arguments. if your God is infinite than it's no issue for him to "stop everything to respond to job". if your God is infinite then he already knows the outcome of this petty, disgusting game he's playing. it's a faulty argument.
What a fantastic video! Bart and Megan are both outstanding scholars and great presenters.
I think Job is the greatest book in the Bible. I understood it to say that we can never understand God or do anything to affect him so why try? Who or what God is or isn't, wants or doesn't want, isn't our business or concern; just be the best you, stick to your ideals. That was my takeaway as a teen and I still like it. Especially useful with pesky born-again types.
This story brought me through some very difficult times… and, yes, I’m receiving everything back, in many forms 🥰🙏🏻
eres ateo?
It was the enlightenment, humanism, and modernity that created kindness and compassion in the modern world not Jesus or Christianity.
Why does God need a Starship?
My favorite movie line of all time.
Even Thanos needed a starship
_I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things._ Isaiah 45:7
This thing about the children - I also find it deeply disturbing. Job is an ancient text; could this be before the Israelites thought of God as being able to raise the dead?
The quote from Isaiah sounds exactly like something Satan would say. Interesting.
totally agree. I don't think job had the concept of life beyond this one....making the death that much more tragic.. once he met the infinite death takes a different perspective
Arguably the Hebrew Bible doesn't include an afterlife, or the idea of resurrection except under very special circumstances. This was a later development and only really one or two of the most recent books (e.g. Daniel) include any reference to these ideas.
The story of Job's is often criticized because it ignores his emotional attachment to his children, as though they were objects (like a tent) that could be replaced.
There is another theological side of the Job story that I have never seen discussed. Job is a worthy human being in God & Satan's sight but his children are disposable objects. Are his children not also God's creations who deserve to have a relationship with God as much as Job?
The Book of Job is indeed a revealing look at Bronze Age ideas of morality. It's about power, not grace or fairness.
Exactly!
And here I always thought this book was about writing a CV and how to ace your interview >.>
Job seems to me to be a reflection of ourselves when it comes to suffering. Was there something i did to cause it? Can i remain a good person in the face of tragedy? We can do all the right things but still be struck down by the randomness of life. If we continue to uphold our principles through hardship, we have the possibility to regain what we've lost as long as we don't lose sight of who we are. People turn to substance abuse, for example, when life beats them down. By doing that, they spiral into a bottomless pit and end up in a hell of their own making. Holding tight to your morality may, at the very least, keep you from making things worse and possibly coming out a better person on the other side. That is my takeaway.
I agree its about handling pain and suffering with an outlook to hope. To be a parable it has to be the most extreme example. I dont think job is happy his kids are dead but there is chance for light on the other side of the tunnel. Kids died all the time back then, it was in humanities interest to mourn but then hope and try again
Without a God, we see things as random- life just happens. This book is literally saying the opposite, that bad things are happening intentionally. Suffering because someone wills it against you is different than a random tragedy striking.
@@justinbaker2883 a child dying is different than a child being murdered.
@amyrenee1361 You are right. The intentional suffering we bring upon each other is the most evil of all. People conspire with the dark side of themselves to bring tragedy to others.
Some people don't even notice these materials are not a continuous story. They read like robots, not paying attention. I noticed the book was discontinuous, like a collection of writings on Job, the very first time I read this book as a young adult (I had not read it in my childhood).
One of the most important books of the Bible.
but soooo clouded and obscure and difficult to get the meanning..
Way back in University, I wrote an enormous work I titled, Bargaining with the Devil: A Game Theoretic Analysis. One of the chapters was on the Book of Job. From memory (this was 40 years ago) the conclusion was that given the strategies and outcomes (in matrix form) God would continue testing Job until God runs out of ways of testing Job. My conclusion was that Job finally begins questioning God’s action when the only thing left to take from him is his Wife. Who, up until then, had been left conspicuously untouched.
Spare a thought for Mrs Job. All the pregnancies and natural births. She was bereaved of her children like Job was. When, in the immeasurable grief and desolation she asked why Job didn't curse God to get things over with, she was called a fool.
And when Job's fortunes and family were restored she had to go through all the pregnancies and births again.
Just because God and Satan had a little wager about a man's loyalty.
To me, that is pretty bloody callous...
@@johandelen1838 Good thing it’s only a story. The interesting question is why would such a story be created? What is it about the circumstances in which the author(s) are living that such a story is designed to address?
@@kencusick6311 I agree with you, it is a story, in my mind it is a parable. It is a story meant to convey a truth or to give information.
Judging by the end of the story , God knew from the beginning that Job wasn't as perfect as he could be and allowed a situation to develop to expose some flaw in Job that wasn't obvious to anyone but God and maybe also Elihu. It is evident that Job comes to a self awareness at the end, that the whole episode was designed to elicit. It appears to me that Job had some error in his thinking that God was correcting. It seems to me that God knew Job meant well even if he didn't fully understand God. It seems to me that God was using Satan, who was also misreading Job, to create a situation to get Job's attention to increase and improve Job's self awareness, which seems to have been that Job didn't actually know as much as he thought he did, that he, Job, didn't actually have the full picture, quite.
I think the comforting thing about the story is that we relax and trust God to do his good work in us, and bring us to where he wants us, our own failings not withstanding Him.
Job's wife is the book's most intriguing character in my opinion. She had to be affected as well, especially losing all of their children, but she basically leaves it to Job and his friends to hash out why all this is happening. "Curse God and die" she says before leaving the scene. She seems alienated from Job's God; she's not involved in the cycle of debates, she doesn't even seem interested in the subject. Is it because she knows she has no place in all this because she is a woman? It's all God and Job and I suspect it always has been even before these events. So, denied the ability to participate, she goes about her own way. While Job and his friends are sitting and arguing on the ash heap, there is work to be done. The damaged house needs repair, the crops need replanting, animals need to be replaced, food has to be cooked, clothes need washing and mending, and the men certainly aren't doing any of this. I can see her heading for the storm cellar when the Tornado God shows up; she knows that it is a waste of time to argue with it because all it does is go round and round and destroy things. She is a lot like Benjamin the Donkey in Animal Farm: life goes on, regardless--badly. I think it is interesting that the Lord "gives" Job ten more children to replace the ones he lost--children do not just pop out of nowhere, so where did they come from? Was she a willing participant in the process of creating new children or was this just one more thing she had to put up with? Or did Job start over with a new wife (or wives) as well?
I also think it is interesting that Christian apologists who defend how Job's friends responded to him completely miss the verse where the Tornado God tells them, "I am very angry with you because you have not spoken the truth about me the way my servant Job has." So he is agreeing with Job that he is everything that Job has said about him. The authors of the Book of Job knew exactly what they were doing when they made God appear as a tornado; it's not a random choice. Quite frankly, I am surprised that the book made it into the canon of either the Jewish or Christian Bibles; it's a really subversive text that does not portray God in a flattering light. I once challenged a Christian friend to show me where in the Book of Job it says that God loves him. Oh, but God does, he loves everyone, she said. Then show me where it says that. Show me where the word love appears. I'll get back with you, she said. I'm still waiting.
Very good commentary.❤
Enjoyed reading it 👍
Great comment!! I totally agree!!
I thought Job's first wife got dizzed ... you saying she went on a holiday, hung out with in-laws or some such?
She really doesn’t appear in the book at all. I mean you can say you as a feminist find the lack of her presence to be a very interesting topic, but she is not the most interesting character, she can’t be when she’s barely alluded to
@@HkFinn83 First of all, you are making the assumption that I am a feminist. You don't know that. You are basing this assumption on my being a woman and sympathizing with this character. Secondly, why shouldn't her absence from the story be significant? Sometimes it is what is not there that may be the most important detail--I believe there is a famous Sherlock Holmes story that is built around this concept.
From an "analytic idealist" point-of-view, I'd argue that the Book of Job is showing us how unbound mind (God, in religious symbolism) is not a meta-conscious agent but rather an instinctual one, behaving how it does because it is what it is. That makes it unique in major religious canon, as far as I'm aware.
Great stuff as always, thank you Bart and Megan!
JOB is not giving us the full story. He said "The thing which I greatly feared has come upon me." What did Job before Satan came? "In the days of my youth, when the SECRET OF GOD was upon my Tabernacle." Job is the oldest book in the Bible, and it's mysteries are very deep. Job 31:35 (31+35=66 book bible) "If my adversary had written a book, I would surely bind it as a crown to me." There is a lot more to say, but people respect a scholar, they don't respect an Esotericist.
Bro what does any of that Yap even mean 😂😂 tf is a meta conscious agent?? What is an instinctual one??? And what is an unbound mind?? There’s nothing instinctual about God ( your unbound mind) making a decision to fuck with Job. When anything acts instinctually there is no conscious decision been made. Instinct isn’t a thought. It’s an action. God was either testing job or punishing job so how is that an instinctual conscious mind? Please help me understand stand
@@Malik-lf6zj - God keeps saying how incomprehensible he is to a human mind like that of Job, how much beyond understanding and definitely not to be controlled or held accountable in any way. Lukas reflects that in common modern idiom, nonsensical as it may seem. But who are we to say what makes sense to a creature such as God?
Folx in the comments aren't happy, Lukas. It's a third view that isn't Creationist or Orthodox Atheist. You HAVE to be one of those two camps, ok?
@@realbrickwalls no he doesn’t. I just wanted to know what he was saying with those words that probably mean nothing
at 32'53".....we see something extremely rare: Bart's true feelings of exasperation at religious dogma; he's the consummate professional and balanced academic 99% of the time but I LOVED it when he asked rhetorically (of the person who lives blissfully without ever questioning the proposition that suffering is the will of G@d and that we shouldn't engage our faculties on the matter) "how human are you?" This was a brilliant episode that really got to the heart of the matter!
Why does god need a world wind? Why can’t he just restore what took away. God sounds an abusive spouse. And he likes to gamble.
And He's very vain!
Does the Book of Job say that God is omnipotent or does it merely say that he is extremely powerful? Not having actually read it, a fortiori memorized it, I can’t say, but I’d wager it does not call him omnipotent-if only because omnipotence is an abstract, philosophical idea, and the story is concrete and particular.
He "use" a world wind because it is not a real story. Is just a literate piece to convey certain ideas of God, suffering and so forth. Job did not exist either. Is a character in a drama. Just it. Is amazing how several critiques speaks as the story was true... Is a piece of writing that try to convey certain ideas (god or bad)
I could not wait for this discussion. I feel that Job is the most profound book in the old testament. When I was a freshman in college, my humanities prof said that Job was a contest between god and satin. I was appalled. After listening to Bart's analysis, I have a better understanding of this book after 50 years. The one thing that keeps coming to mind is whether the Jews of Europe fell back on this book during their persecution under the Nazis. I somehow wish that this was brought into Bart's discussion and analysis of Job.
It was pointed out to me (by an evangelical no less) that when G$d decided to test Job through loss and affliction, he didn't take away the old ball & chain......now that's a parable!
That's right! And then she has to pump out twice as many children! I'd say she'd be ready to curse God and die!! 😆😆😆
It’s an odd God that’s portrayed in Job. He’s not an attractive character at all, he’s neither reasonable, nor kind nor even good in any way that we would think of nowadays.
but what if this event is the first discovery of life after death?
To me, the authors forgot god was supposed to be all knowing so for god to wager with Satan on whether job would stay faithful comes off as cruel and sadistic. The question of suffering that this narrative is supposed to answer ends up being an indictment against god.
All nonsense anyway.
There are a few places in the bible where the god character wasn't all knowing. It's been several years since I've read it though.
Jesus said unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no part in me.... The god here is no different
@@ginafrancis4950 if this God is all knowing and Satan is not then there is some other un mentioned objective.
Yeah, even when I was in highschool and going to Sunday school, I had problems with the idea that Job's children were replaced as if that was no big deal.
👏🙂
Great podcast episode
I pray for forgiveness. The Hubris! Yet Bart's final words are worth noticing. I pray for Bart Ehrman. I pray for divine mercy on him and me.
I was thinking about this story recently. The story of Job seems to me to be a Jewish take on what the Greeks do with bad things happening to well off people. Usually the gods get jealous or ruin that person because they desire them. In Job it seems that a prosecutorial being does that job and god welcomes it in weirdly boastful attitude.
Almost the entirety of Job is as from being Jewish as anything in The Bible.
Got to hear a really interesting talk from Dr. Richard Middleton, from Northeastern Seminary, about Job, during my undergraduate. It's nice to get another scholar's perspective. One of his essential claims was that the speech from the Whirlwind is critically misunderstood as a fierce backlashing reprimand when it should instead be understood as an uplifting invitation from God encouraging a bit of talking back. I may be misremembering though, it was nearly a decade ago.
Maybe Job should be understood as a thought experiment exploring the nature of free will as it relates to faith. Then it all culminates by juxtaposing a temporal perspective with an eternal one, giving a final evaluation of the merits of faith vs nihilism.
Yes, one way to escape from all the evil in the bible is to "understand" it as something different. Believing what the bible actually says would be absurd.
"Blessed is the one who grasps your infants and smashes them against the rock"
(Book of psalms 137:9)
I don't understand what juxtaposting a culminate temporal spective is but I think i agree with what you said sortof.
I find great joy in reading Job every night. God is doing a great job
This book de-converted me.
You let a book take your faith away from you?
@@tryme3969 do you believe that aesop witnessed a race between a tortoise and a hare?
If a finite mind meets the infinite how does that change the reading?? Hint God's very first question is actually the answer.
@@mister_kanielathe characterization of God is the issue not if you believe the event
@@mister_kaniela Are you trying to make a point or just being silly?
22:00 Bart "... its really a troubling view of sufferings" aaaaaahhhh now we can feel the leftovers of Bart's personal frustrations, anger, confusion with suffering. Great struggle!
you seem to have many different pairs of glasses
I met a person once who told me that, The Book of Job is there favourite book and they think its because it's hilarious. The person actually enjoyed laughing at the suffering Job went through. I couldn't tell if this person was being serious at first, but given how much they enjoy schadenfreude, I think it's safe to assume that they may actually be serious, and that is very uncomfortable and haunting if to be true.
Nothing in the book of Job indicates that it's by or about an Israelite (or Judahite). It's almost certainly a story picked up (with minimal editing and adaptation) from Mesopotamian or Persian sources during the Babylonian exile. THAT's why it seems so out of place in the Tanakh...
Let's just take a moment to remember all the servants in Job's service killed to test Job's righteousness and their bereaved families.
As a child in a "job" of a family, one of seven sons with three sisters, the idea that Job's wife would have to go through more pregnancies and likely miscarriages to give back to Job his "job" of kids rather horrifies me.
I think you are missing exactly how the outer story depicts the wealth of Job. He has camels, donkeys, paired oxen, and sheep. And the servants to care for them. Donkeys have one real use, to carry heavy loads for rural delivery of goods, camels carry goods long distances in caravans, paired oxen pull heavy wagons of goods over roads. In the outer story these all get stolen. Sheep are the odd item, but they can provide nonperishable uncarded, spune, or woven wool as potential trade goods to round out the loads Job is sending around, to help make a profit.
Job was the Jeff Bezos of his day.
A what strikes me as stupid about the writing of the outer story is that none of these animals and their caretakers would ever be in one place at one to be stolen or killed in one raid. They would be out doing their work. Even sheep wouldn't be kept together. Those poor sheep, killed by an exploding volcano.
I think the inner story is actually a pretty good effort to put forward different reasons why suffering happens, differing philosophical viewpoints on the suffering of the innocent.
Note that Job lives in a tent (inner story)while his oldest son lives in an admittedly poorly built house (outer story). You'd think with his own house that son at least would have given Job a grand child, but no mention of spouses or grandchildren.
When I read Job the story struck me as having three layers, the poetic inner core, a middle buffer describing the personal harm done to Job, his wife's part, and the appearance of Jaweh to brag on creating the world with his amusing beastry, and the third layer being the wealth loss and restoration wrapped around that, along with El holding his council meeting with Jaweh and the Satan, El's inspector/provocator, attending. The Satan strikes me as being rather put out with Jaweh's prying, rather than acting shifty. The way the Satan challenges Yaweh's boosting by saying Yaweh's holds Job safe from the Satan, under his personal protection, makes me feel that El had assigned the position of the Satan to one of his sons especially to see how well the tribal gods were doing.
I think the original lyrical poets who composed the inner core didn't even describe the suffering of Job because that would be more effective during a recitation, "You've all heard of the suffering of Job, but let me tell you about..." Let the audience imagine the worst infliction they could rather than get into an argument with them over whether what the poet gave was really all that bad.
I wonder if the writers/compiler of Job weren't trying to refute the theory of karma or fate or something like that which may have existed contemporaneously
I'm glad he discusses how ridiculous killing 10 children is and how psychopathic replacing 10 children with 10 different children is as a gesture of benevolence and reward for devotion.
th-cam.com/video/kZKuixGmiMw/w-d-xo.html best explanation
Fun fact: Job is the oldest book of the bible, and shows a very different view of God.
what is the view that is different?
JOB is not giving us the full story. He said "The thing which I greatly feared has come upon me." What did Job before Satan came? "In the days of my youth, when the SECRET OF GOD was upon my Tabernacle." Job 31:35 (31+35=66 book bible) "If my adversary had written a book, I would surely bind it as a crown to me."
That's somewhat misleading. It IS in all likelihood a very old story - almost certainly from ancient Mesopotamian sources (though almost certainly not as old as, say, the flood narrative adapted from Mesopotamian sources and imported into Genesis at around the same time).
But it's a very late addition to the writings section of the Tanakh. Its inclusion dates back to - at the earliest - the Babylonian exile, if not the Achaemenid Persian period.
Bart's claim that the Book of Job was written in the 5th or 6th century B.C. is highly suspect, and your presentation that Job is the OLDEST book in the Bible, written even before Moses' Pentateuch, is quite likely correct.
When i first read the bible in my early 20's i went into it knowing nothing other than it's "The good book" I wasn't religious but i wasn't really opposed to religion or considered it a negative pox on society and critical thinking like I do now. I was of course utterly horrified with the bible's contents and The Book of Job really stood out as one of the most particularly diagnostic stories for me forming my impression of the character of God as a malignant narcissistic psychopath devoid of any empathy whatsoever who views humanity as ants who exist for no reason other than to be sycophants for him, give him adoration and labor for him.
Flash forward to today, i'm a professional artist and working on a 10 book graphic novel that allegories some of the most famous stories of the bible to try to get people to see it from my perspective, in part skewing the perspective it's told from from god and his chosen people but instead telling the story from the perspective of God's victims, most of whom are utterly devoted to him and just trying their best.
The book of job is by far the most important story to this graphic novel and sorta mirror's the main character's story throughout it. WHen i was writing the part of the script where i really hit home on this point I reread the book of job and the whole bible as it had been awhile (I've read the thing four times.) and even moreso today I found the book of job to be just one of the most horrifically indicting stories of god's character. The main character is of course faced with the same dilemma as Job as to how to view god after he's done this or allowed this to be done to him. Do you love god even more and submit and possibly accept great rewards or do you set out to destroy him so he can never do this to anybody else?
The Book of Job , and the God therein , are both abominations, imho. As is just about everything in the Old Testament…..btw, Bart’s book “God’s Problem” is so great….all about suffering and how it’s not possible to understand why there’s so much of it on this planet…cannot be reconciled with Christianity or the Jewish God of the Old Testament.
I would never believe as someone who doesn’t believe in god, the stories of the bible, etc would be listening to this. However, seeing it as classical literature, it changes everything. I may even consider buying Bart’s book about memory.
There is a Big Bang passage in Job where God opens his arms and the Universe comes flying out.
It's funny, I was 7, at religion school, and asked the exact same question to my cathecist about Job's children, as if the deaths of the original set was even meaningful. :D My cathecist didn't know how to answer, by the way.
I always took the message to essentially be that "stuff" happens. Same with the saying about the rain falling on the just and unjust alike. Admittedly, I only ever knew the basic story.
That sounds about right. Clearly all the background God/Satan nonsense is just an ancient fantasy that tries to explain the inexplicable.
I played one of the counselors in a production of "J.B." by Archibald MacLeish. The play doesn't (as I remember it) do anything to resolve the troubling aspects of the book. I'm afraid I missed a few that you described here in my re-readings of the book itself. What a cluster! Yes, a very disturbing set of ideas. But what awful friends the "counselors" were...
Read gods very first quesiton to job as an answer......probe that for a bit
From the age of 12 to 18 I was a member of Job's Daughteers, the teen girls organization of the Masons. Every initiation we told the story of Job. I see now it was just the narrative and none of the poetry. I can still recite parts of it by memory., and I'm 73.
Jeez, the Book of Job sounds like the whole premise of *Trading Places*.
Either God was right and Job did NOTHING wrong, meaning that his true reward for obedience should have been being left alone OR Satan was correct, making God imperfect. Satan WAS right to the extent that God felt the need to reprimand Job towards the end of the book.
EDIT: It's all ridiculous from the start anyway. A bet to see what will happen? God is...GOD. He ALREADY KNOWS what will happen.
If god already knows like you say-----then something else is afoot....what if the real story is not written but implied
Or this is not about Gods character but suffering and what the author thinks about it, and how to bare it.
"I can do no wrong, for I know not what it is." 🎭
Furthermore, according to you, you can do no right, for you know not what it is. I contend for objective morality based on the self-evident principle that everyone wants to do with greater quality and/or quantity more of what they want to do. This is a self-evident axiom from which derivations can be made: If "everyone" wants to do what they want, then there can be conflicting or according wants. According wants means that acting synergistically with others who want similar things improves the ability to achieve their wants more effectively than if they all went at it alone. This is best achieved through principled, interdependent character (See 7 Habits of Highly Effective People) and leads to a stable, upward spiral of growth. Conflicting wants are unstable, and therefore demand resolution or else suffer a downward spiral into misery and ineffectiveness. Therefore, objectively correct principles harmonize with others in such a way as to enable everyone to do what they want more effectively, and to turn away from wrongs, which are wants that would irreparably clash with others to the point of causing your world to crumble. e.g. Hitler did wrong because his actions conflicted so profoundly with "everyone flourishing" that it demanded total war against him and further, it demanded many people in his own ranks to perform many assassination attempts. Unstable to say the least. The natural governing principles/laws of cooperation with independent, rational minds is as inescapably true as trying to deny the natural law of gravity after jumping off a cliff without any gear.
@@timrose4310 In your entire wall of text, you didn't demonstrate that you got my reference. This is from The Mysterious Stranger, No. 44. It is Mark Twain's version of Satan, who acts just like God.
I had hoped that the theater masks would have given the reference away, as it connects to a claymation summary of that unfinished work in progress.
@@timrose4310 th-cam.com/video/Ntf5_ue2Lzw/w-d-xo.html
@JasonFennec I just wanted to debunk the notion implied by the quote. Sorry for presuming you agreed with the quote, and for not looking it up. Tho, it probably would be good for u to include "- Satan" instead of hoping it's clear enough who said the quote or where the quote comes from.
@@timrose4310 The quote, in absence of the source, is pure evil. It is how the mind of a sociopath thinks.
Bart, you should look at the story of the prodigal son. Everyone gets the meaning wrong. The prodigal son doesn't get anything from his father when he returns. The faithful son still gets everything.
Well, he did get a ring and a welcome home party...that was pretty nice!! 😉 😆
@@hurdygurdyguy1 lol. Yeah. But I hate how everyone says it's this great story about repentance. It's not. And you can bet when dad dies, the prodigal is out on his butt.
This seems to be close to the Oedipus curse. Oedipus tried to outrun the curse but didn’t realize that was impossible. Or perhaps “Appointment In Samarra”!
Isn't Job a pre Hebrew story/text?
why I love Neil Gaiman's version in Good Omens season 2... oh, yeah... these are totally NEW children. They're not the original children, those are gone for sure!
Glasses game on point as always!
Job is an Uz-realite!
Carl Jung ”Answer to Job” very good
Jung?
I always enjoy your videos. However, this one on Job does not sit comfortably with me. There are subtle nuances in the Book of Job that you do not take into account. After the dialogue between Job and his friends, God blames the friends for not speaking right of God as Job did. God did not dismiss Job's position entirely. In the great poem of God's speech, the principle of causality is undermined - making room for mystery and paradox. In logic and traditional theology, the principle of causality and its theological equivalent retribution are seen as the foundation of 'meaning'. Here and in the book of Ecclesiastes this view is challenged. However, the world is not surrendered to total chaos. The central motives in God's speech are procreation and nourishment, indicating that God is trustworthy although He is not predictable.
Whoever put together the book of Job was obviously mocking theism. It may be my favorite book in the bible. The idea should be mocked.
So good.
You are looking at the story of Job from a modern perspective. Back when the story of Job came into being, at least 50% of babies died within their first year. What effect did losing half of your children have on people? And was this part of the reason for Job? It could be part of the story of Abraham and the sacrifice of his son, Isaac.
You are looking at it from a modern assumption. How do you know what they felt back then? Isn't every individual within a time period different? Can't we all just agree that what was done to Job was wrong?
@@amyrenee1361 The question is, why was the Book of Job written, and where was it written? Up to 80% of the Old Testament was written down during and immediately after the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century. What effect did this have on how Job was written? Was Job written as a way to tell the Israelites not to lose faith after the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 BC, and their years in exile?
Claiming that 10 more children would see someone "restored" after having lost their first 10 suggests that this story was written by some "wise" old idiot. Presumably one who has never had kids.
And what about a the 10 innocents who were killed simply as collateral damage in this heavenly wager? Were they somehow "restored" after being snuffed out also? And then there are all the other bereaved family members? Given that Jobs "children" were clearly adult children, it is safe enough to assume that there were most likely wives/husbands of these "children" who lost their partners, and also children who lost their parents?
Anyone who thinks this story sets any good example regarding morals or righteousness needs to take a good hard look at themselves, and then ask how they ever became so deluded and divorced from rational thought.
Sometimes the point of a story is what is not said, or what is not asked. Job demands evidence of his sins/wrong doings from God, which is the same as demanding evidence of God's existence. God confronts and speaks to Job after this inquiry. God is displeased, but that is irrelevant to Job, Job still got what he desired from his original demand, which is proof of God's existence. The point of the story of Job is not given directly in Job, the point comes down to one's own inner view. The point of Job is to consider: If everything was taken away from Job and Job demanded evidence of his sins from God, but God did not respond to Job. Ask yourself: What would Job have done then? Would he remain pious and praise God? Would he stop believing in God? Would he curse God? Would he believe in God but think God is faulty or not completely righteous? Would he do as his three friends suggested and strive to find sins in his own behaviour, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant? Whatever ones' view of how Job would behave through God ignoring Job's demand is the point of the story of Job.
I mean what you're saying isn't accurate at all. Job does not ruminate on his doubts of the existence of god. He is ruminating on his doubts on the morality of god's seeming judgement of him. Job rightfully has to assume god is judging him for something and job wants to have counsel with him to plead his case that he doesn't deserve this.
So what does god do? God shows up and basically shows what a monster he is and how little he cares for job or anybody else beyond what job or anybody else can do for him in worshipping him and praising him. God then rewards job for his utter submission in the face of his horrible cruelty. It's an awful story.
@@nunyabusiness9056 I never said Job runinates on his doubts of the existence of God. BECAUSE as you said, God shows up. You missed the point entirely. The question is: What would Job have done if God hadn't showed up?
It's all rhetorical...none of the events happened in real life, it's a manufactured story... Job had to repent because it was necessary for the plot of the story...
@@DarwinsStepChildren I didn't miss anything haha. Demanding evidence of ones sins isn't demanding evidence of the existence of god. You're just flat out making garbage up lol.
If i get interrogated by the police and they suggest i did something wrong, i might ask them for evidence i did some wrong doing. I"m not doubting the existence of god.
You're twisting yourself in knots here to be an apologist for this story lol.
@@nunyabusiness9056 You still haven't answered the question: What would Job have done if God hadn't shown up? If you wish to say mentioning the police and stating someone is twisting themselves in knots answers this question, then you didn't miss anything.
Yeah Job got a raw deal. Went through all of that, never `cursed God and died,` and still got one of the longest lectures in literary history. Not to mention, it makes a point of noting that instead of resurrecting his children, God just `gave them new kids,` because his original kids were up in heaven waiting for him. Which means, Job's wife had to give birth to 10 more kids! That's almost as bad as what Job went through to begin with. LOL
but got a new woman at the end; so no big deal
But, iirc at the time Job was written/compiled there was no concept of resurrection... you died and were buried, the end, no "going to heaven"
@@hurdygurdyguy1 True, which only begs the question, but yep, point noted.
Love the subject and I love your pink hair! 😊
The story of Job's children which are fair game to be killed in order to test Job, and which can simply be replaced with other children, is probably the most chilling example of how the OT writers viewed children. Aside from Job's story, there's Isaac - whom Abraham would be fully entitled to sacrifice, as the story never questions Abraham's right to kill his son. There's Jephtha's daughter (unnamed of course, she's only a girl, after all) - who does get sacrificed by her father, and the story fully assumes that Jephtha has every right to kill his daughter. And there's the baby son of David and Bathsheba - who is killed by God as punishment for the adultery committed by David. None of these children are assumed to have any kind of right to their own lives.
Puts a lie to the "every life is precious" cant, doesn't it?
Ah yes. This book, oh man. This work is so much. Its incredible
Curse God and die? Hurt him but don't kill him, and replaced rather than restored children. I get it now, life after death not yet a thing
Excellent.
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I remember reading this Bible book and thinking that Satan actually won the bet. Job ultimately lost hope and basically accused God of wrongdoing and upheld his own innocence. Maybe that's not exactly "cursing God to his face" but it's pretty close. And then God's only response is a tirade about how powerful he is and how that makes Job automatically wrong, which is the behavior of a child or narcissist who is losing an argument. I don't believe the writer ever stated that God won the bet. I don't know that God is necessarily even supposed to be the good guy in this book, given that it has almost nothing to do with the rest of the OT or the Hebrew religion anything is possible.
I think there is also a societal intent in the Job narrative. It's saying, in effect, that if someone is down on their luck or inflicted by a disease, they aren't necessarily on God's bad side, or guilty of some sin. Only God knows. It is a sin however to think that you know that someone else has sinned in the eyes of the God just because of someone's personal circumstances.
So, in the day to day workings of a society you're allowed to think kindly and support those who are in pain or in need. Their suffering doesn't mean they are cursed by God, by default. It might simply be a test (or even a whim) of the deity. However, if you judge them harshly that can raise the ire of the deity. So don't do that.
New kids or his family restored brought back to life
I would love to hear a discussion with Bart and Joel Baden on this topic. Two of my favorite scholars on the different areas of the bible.