The Book of Job and the Problem of Evil
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- How could an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God allow Job to endure unspeakable suffering?
The authors of the Book of Job were troubled by the question: Why do the righteous suffer when the wicked prosper? We’ll consider and evaluate their proposed answers.
The part of the book of Job that I find most fascinating is the small but imperative section that eludes to the political system of the gods. When people say the Jews (and subsequently some Christian sects) are monotheistic they are ignoring the polytheistic origin of the religion. The concept of the Trinity also contradicts the monotheistic ideology but the Trinitarian sects have gone to great lengths to attempt to reconcile the contradiction.
Another excellent lecture from Mr Hamer. I highly recommend viewing his lectures as they are substantive in academic research.
They are great Aren't they .... they really are..
We love you Pastor ❤️ God bless you 🙏✝️
Thank you
We see how they changed the meaning
Thank you so much
I am moving to Austin Texas but wish i had your community as neighbors❤️👵🏻
Great 👍
I love your lectures, thank you for hitting so many topics that are potentially controversial.
Also, I love the book of Job. It is quite possibly the most beautiful book in all of scripture.
Some of the insight in this book that isn't found elsewhere:
in the Epilogue, when all of Job's other wealth is doubled from what is listed in the Prologue, his new set of children is the same number as the original. Suggesting the immortal nature of identity, since he now has twice as many children ... only if his original children still somehow exist, and are still connected to him.
Its also interesting, in a time when a man's wife was his property, Job's wife was not taken. And, in a time of polygamy being normal, when his wealth was doubled, he wasn't given a second wife. This suggests that God viewed the two as one flesh (Gods instruction to the Accuser: "only touch not his flesh").
Also, in the section where you mention God's statements about how insignificant Job is by comparison to God, it could be read another way. It could simply be God pointing out (to us, the intended audience) that Job's perspective is not complete. If Job KNEW that he was an eternal being, then the question "Where were you when the Earth was framed?" is intended not to belittle, but to demonstrate that the problem of evil runs beyond the scope of mortality.
The book does a wonderful job of exploring the problem of evil, without answering it directly, so that a person wrestling with it can find commonality in one of many sections of the book, as they wrestle their way toward wisdom, and if new arguments to the answer for the problem of evil are presented, an addition could be added to the book without removing any of what is there.
I would have liked to have the story of Job as told in the Koran to have been included in the discussion, that might have additional twists worth considering.
Again, thanks for an excellent presentation of an interesting topic.
Excuse my naïveté, however, I’m unfamiliar with the story of Job via the Quran. Is the story of Job told in a different light? You’ve piqued my curiosity and I will be hitting google now, but I’d love your insight based on your informative post here.
Thanks! 🙏
Job is the story of how God thought proving something to the devil was more important than the happiness of Job, and more importantly, his sons. The moral of the story, beautifully simple, is: God and the devil are one. This God therefore is not God, but an imposter allowed to prevail because of the absence (sin) of the real God.
Your interpretations are very interesting.
The Book of Job is great...as toilet paper.
God is the cause of all causes, because without him nothing would exist. Obviously, a division of the original perfect harmony and unity of God was necessary to create a space in which the process of creation is possible at all. This process, with the goal of restoring the original unity, is still in full swing.
Pain, suffering and death are born of separation, and when Jesus died on the cross, God reconciled with His creation and initiated the spiritual establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth with His resurrection. Jesus' sacrifice of grace alone proves that God is good - because he takes responsibility for the suffering in this world, since he created it.
God is not santa claus looking
I agree
Also the Vedas in Indian philosophy express the power of sacrifice in keeping right with the cosmos.
That proper action invoke proper consequences in the karmic relations.
But ritual is not a guarantor of good fortune, but we're yoked to the obligation of righteous duty.
In the same way as prudential vs. reflective outlines the discrepancy, you can't assume "good" karma out of the cycle of birth and rebirth, death and re-death. It's not a credit score.
They were writings to make you think
RE: Job's replacement children. Who Bore these 7 sons and 3 daughters?? Certainly not his current wife!🤣
HA. HA. HA.
Paul describes his own Job-like experience:
"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness." 2 Corinthians 12:7-9.
The Greek is " αγγελος (aggelos) σαταν (satan)" - An Angel of Satan. So here we have Satan in the NT functioning as God's helper in the same way he does in Job.
Catholics also place a heavy emphasis on textural criticism of the Bible... since Catholics don't ascribe to "Sola scriptura."
The idea that there must be multiple authors because there seems to be a change of tone is really resolved of attributing elements to other books in the Bible that are really nothing to do with this book and acting as though because you feel like there's a huge disconnect between Genesis 1 and 2, which there is, that must mean that God from the whirlwind is contradicting what something was said earlier.
In God in the whirlwind tells job to sack up which isn't invalid advice, because Jobe has decided to wallow in his misery and await his death. God also then takes job side and reprimands his friends. It's important to know he represents all four of the friends, so to claim that the fourth friend was the voice of God before God shows up in the whirlwind is a complete misreading of the text. You're supposed to come out of it with the understanding that the voice of the prophets is the voice of job's for friends, and the person who's life and foundation was destroyed who did everything right didn't receive any type of cosmic punishment because of idolatry, or the wrong type of worship. But that these things can happen even to the righteous. And it will always gets lost in everything is Northern Israel's fate and then the subsequent alteration of the entire religious system of Canaan after. The mythical lost in tribes of Israel. Because the fact of the matter is is that they were scapegoated and called wicked and they must have been doing all this evil and that's why God let them be conquered. What the book of Job is there to do is to explain to the reader that that is nonsense and that while it was advantageous for the profits to make those types of assertions, their ultimately wrong and if you suffer in your own life that's nothing to do with God punishing you. But as long as you're breathing and alive, horrors may happen to you but you should never give up on life itself. You cherish the life that you had with your first children, and then be lucky enough to have more children who you tell stories to about your first children. And that just seems to be lost to the people who read this in pieces and then claim that it's multiple authors some together. Jobs words throughout the entire book, including in chapter one and in chapter 2 fully comply with all of his Lamentations in the poetry
This is the most underrated episode of John hamers series of lectures, but he's absolutely wrong about multiple contradictory narratives at play in Job
There are other factors not just the change of tone, it’s the different styles, the different theologies, different language nuances, ie the difference between Shakespearean English and, say 100 years ago.
The Catholic New American Bible translates Proverbs 22:19 as "That your trust may be in the LORD, I make known to you the words of Amen-em-Ope."
How can that be possible
God speaking
The "problem of evil" is only an issue if you accept two axioms as true: That God is omnipotent, and that God is all good. If God is good but also evil, then there is no issue anymore. I do not believe there is a passage in the bible that claims God is *only* good and has no evil. There are way more lines in the bible about fearing God, than about God being good. Is the God of the Old Testament good? It seems more like a feeble, naive human wish than something God actually said about Himself.
Ecclesiastes 4
2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.
This line implies the Gnostic belief; that creation itself was a big mistake.
I like the self-knowledge of Gnosticism but creation is not a mistake. It's supposed to be dualistic, otherwise we would have no contrast. We can only interpret that something feels good by having bad feelings to contrast it with. Creation is perfectly balanced as the "game for God to play".
@@dogechrist And yet, it is acknowledge by all mainstream Christian sects that we live in a fall world. A world of sin. The only disagreement is where to place the blame for that. Most will say it is because Eve ate a fruit she was told not to. Gnostics say it was created as a fallen world by a flawed and ignorant creator.
Read Isaiah 45:7
King James Version
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
@@filipeazevedo6165 yup, also Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
@@filipeazevedo6165 So how can God be "all good" if he creates evil?
Devil wins when good dont help others
Sorry but every knee will bend to the son iasua isous navi xristos. You must call on the name of the Lord to be saved from the wrath coming upon the world. Deuteronomy means 2nd law. Means there was a law covenant before deuteronomy. Covenant lasts upto a thousand years. The last covenant with yhwh is fulfilled by xristos coming to buy back persons with the sacrifice of his pure blood born, of the holy spirit/ breath of father, it makes the son the owner as he paid the price for all once. The father did not leave the heavens which he sustains to become flesh and die like a man. Is thst logical? He sent his son. The father sends the spirit as a helper. Do you see why you must recognise the son is a creator, therefore God. A cord of 3 cannot be broken.
More arrogant prosletising.
Powerful (albeit dickish) speech
39:03
For their profit
I am God. You are God. We are God. We create Heaven, or we create Hell, here ’on Earth; God decide's.
My wife is god
Without rules wild west happens
Those who are listening to this, be sure to read the books and passages he is referring to to make sure he isn't changing the context or situation.
I’ve read Job via the KJV. Are you saying he’s misrepresenting the message of Job? Genuinely interested.
Thanks.
@@seansolidworks4736 ,
He misrepresents everything. He assumes a history that isn't there and puts his take on it. I would look at other sources and read things myself before believing what he is saying. This is a propaganda video to move you to thinking the most accurate book isn't any more then the stories of men for the purpose of philosophy.
@@notstayinsdowns Considering an Omniscient, Omnipotent Infinite God of all Creation that no human will ever be able to understand in all the fullness... wouldn't it be safe to accept that all Bible study, in the end, is individual interpretation? And the challenge is to take the lessons on board as you are able and willing at any given point...live them in your life... experience them... and let yourself be always open to deeper understandings?
@@glenn-younger ,
All things are individual interpretation. The point of discussion is to find what is the correct meaning. To misrepresent the facts doesn't misinterpret but is an attempt to mislead.
Deeper understanding isn't changing the facts but understanding what is said.
@@notstayinsdowns Perhaps you can share which facts you feel he's misrepresenting? I listen from the perspective that this is "one man's point of view". I'd be interested in pulling the thread of understanding more on your point of view. Thanking you in advance...
Job is a book about religious argument. And the end is G0d correcting everyone. I don't know what he is talking about.
So man must suffer for the whim of some insecure 'god' who has something to prove to one of his more important creations? What type of God would put the devil above his people UNLESS that God WAS the devil. Seems really obvious. Dirty bird.
@@chrisbova9686 ,
Since that isn't the case, I would suggest you actually read the Bible instead of letting people tell you things because they want you to be trapped like they are.
@@notstayinsdowns where do you think I got that idea? It was after losing everything in a fire started by nefarious technology, I was in a little shed I built for myself to live in, with my three dogs, and randomly opened my bible... To job. I witnessed the nefarious technology first hand. From the clouds came a beam. Next day, high park fire, 2012. God is not here. Just the devil.
God is not a personal being interested in your particular plight. Grow your mind and notice the wonder and splendor all around you in a bigger sense. On top of that, take responsibility for your life. U pop ur narcissistic point of view is that typical and normal for a child. If you are one, then you will see this as you grow. If you are mot a child, start growing your spiritual relationship up shop with the Universe and all beings. Expand your awareness.
@@chrisbova9686 ,
Without trouble we have no free will. To dismiss the good because there is bad is not a logical position. It seems you are more about trying to manipulate God to do for you instead of you doing good.
I suggest that you stop trying to define god as this or that and you be truthful with your audience and admit that there is no evidence for a god (or gods ). Stop stringing these gullible people along.Cheers.
The evidence of God is in the hearts of believers. It's personal. Unless you've experienced the transformational power you wouldn't understand. But you can never get there with a closed mind.
@@doughughes9423 If you don't close your mind to everything else you'll never get to where you are.
Surely, the fact that the vast majority of humanity in this day and throughout history have sensed a higher purpose than mere ego-gratification attests as evidence. It's just not something that can be substantiated by science as it is something immaterial. Only theology and philosophy can explain such things.
The speaker outright says that the book doesn't depict what really happened anywhere, how do you think he is professing this belief?
If I give a lecture on One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest will you interrupt every time I talk about Nurse Ratchet to say "she's not real!"?