Can I get some balloons in chat? Edited by - / hqrubbish Follow me on Twitter - / theoryfighter Music from Monolord - • Monolord - Vænir Instr... #fightinggames #fgc #karnovsrevenge
It’s funny how broken moves in fighting games are never the fullscreen laser or the instakill combo, it’s always just some low kick that lingers a bit too long and single handedly invalidates half the cast
Yup. In Battle Arena Toshinden for PSX, if you play as Rungo, and do a standing punch (square button), he bashes quickly with his club. Thing is, it has shitloads range and recovers faster than opponents damage animation, this meaning that you can infinity kill anyone in the game by simple pokes.
Reminds me of melee. Fox's defining tool is his frame 1, invincible shine. Puff's defining tool us her gigantic 12% back air. Samus's defining tool is... crouching. Just crouching. And its probably the tool that annoys newer players the most.
You didn't mention the bull :( (i mean to be fair it's obscure WITHIN obscure, but when you beat the story mode of this game without dropping a round, you get a secret fight against a literal bull. Fought against with proper mechanics. It is unplayable without hacking, has a lot of broken boss character properties, and probably wouldn't fit well in this video but like... it's a goddamn bull)
It's not the only one. One of the opponents in Human Killing Machine (the pseudo-sequel to Tiertex's Atari ST port of the first Street Fighter) is a matador, and after defeating him you then fight the bull. It's not even the first animal you fight in that game.
The editing on this video was absolutely incredible TF and I'm really excited to see you develop this style more. And as always, I'm incredibly supportive of any mindset that encourages more thought to afforded to fighting games and how they can be navigated.
"Balloon!" Haha what a hilarious move. I would love to see an analysis of Claw's wall dive from ST. It's the most dynamic move I've come across. It's often called broken but it can be countered with any character by a knowledgeable player. It's dynamic nature would make for an interesting video.
Claw Dive has both counterplay and counter counterplay. It's why Hyoball is such an effective tactic. Claw can mix up his offense to mess with the opponent just as much if not more than they can respond after getting knocked by it. 2012's Tournament of Legends is a pretty good place to see just how effective it is and some good counters.
Cool thanks. I will check that out. There is a TH-cam channel called"mao". He's a Japanese player that posts lots of claw matches. That's where I got a lot of my strats. It's also really fun to just hang out on Fightcade2 and spectate live matches. Hell, you could of seen me on there kicking that @$$ with claw about 10 minutes ago.
@Darian Hagan I wouldn't say it's broken. It's really hard to pull off. It only works on certain characters when they are turtleing. For example it doesn't work on Blanka even when he is turtleing. I rarely see Vega's super pulled off with experienced players. Personally I can only pull it off on someone who I am dominating after they start turtleing. Also the movement and timing for the super is difficult.
@@riggel8804 The idea is that the super's not really required. If you miss the input for the super, you still get the grab. And if they're too far away you still get the claw dive. Both put the opponent back in the same situation as before which is the reason Claw's so busted. He hits or grabs ya and does it again till he wins or you guess right and go back to neutral against a very fast character with good pokes who can start the dive shenanigans again when he gets a knockdown. If you watch ST any Claw players who has a full super will be inputting for the Super Izuna Drop every single time they do a wall dive because there's no reason not to.
Seeing Fighter's History being discussed like this makes me genuinely so happy, this series has been beaten into the ground for years now, and watching someone recognize and talk about something good about it is extremely refreshing. Thanks a lot, man.
Calling something broken is a day one option select lmao. Excellent writing already. Btw TF, the audio mixing has improved drastically. Your voice is clear as day. The music is much clearer as well, but mixed in just right to add texture without muddying up your very British accent.
I agree wholeheartedly with this video, and the sentiment that it is really easy for the mob mentality to take over when no nuance is put forth. However, I also believe this same argument *could* be used easily to dismiss any form of criticism. Not in the case of this video, as it provides information on the move, its usage, its counterplay, how it affects the meta, and most important personally, the move according to every other options available at the moment. But, my problem is that I've seen far too many times when the answer back to criticism is "you have to adapt" or "get good", without providing anything back in answer. Like I said, this video is the perfect example on how to NOT do that, it presents the case and all the details about it, just saying that the mob mentality generalization can also go both ways.
Short Version: The fact that an obstacle can be overcome does not preclude it from being unwarranted or detrimental. ;) In this particular case, I do see how such an experience could leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.
It's not mob mentality when I've never seen this game nor do I know anyone who plays this game nor have I ever seen any criticism of this game. The fact that he admits the devs would nerft this attack if possible is proof enough that it's broken. :)
@@7F0X7 It is very much the definition of mob mentality to go off word of mouth despite having never experienced it first hand to determine your own opinion on it though
@@aliasmcgames So if I have experience with the game, then I'm part of the "mob mentality", but if I've never played it or heard about it, and I come to a negative conclusion about the game from watching this video, then my opinion is not valid. LOL what a stupid comment.
The issue with this same topic is that people tend to get used to and learn counter-plays for things that are not interesting, can be spammed ad nasium and don't require a lot of skills to abuse. Once they do learn how to play around it, any complain gets side-tracked as "git gud" or "lizard-priest is not even top 3 on pro-play". And sure, these thing may not be so important in the higher echelons, but it creates a really UNFUN learning curve where these moves dominate most of your time.
Fun is completely subjective. And honestly your entire complaint sounds like the people who complain about parrying solving a ton of issues in ds1. If you don't like the game don't play it.
I loved this discussion, because anyone who views a move without the full context its being used in can easily call something broken, the same can happen with entire characters if given the wrong idea of where they sit in the game. Take a look at any marvel game, and you can identify any number of moves or characters who would individually be called broken, but that's because it's a 3v3 game series, and TOD combo's are a part of the fun, so any individual move being too good is much less of an issue.
@@mrosskne A TOD refers to a touch of death combo, in a team fighting game it's a combo that will kill a character, provided you have the resources to do it.
It is easy to write off Fighters History Dynamite as just being a Street Fighter 2 rip-off, but it is a surprisingly competent fighting game, and actually ended up again one of my favourites for the Neo Geo. I wouldn't call it the best fighting game on the Neo Geo, but it's one of my favorites. And it isn't surprising that he would be a powerful character, considering he's the final boss of the game.
Love the new presentation! Love the flexible concepts around balloon as well. It reminds me of the numerous counterplay options to crouch cancelling in MvC2.
Wow, this video is absolutely stunning. This feels like one of those old VHS tapes or DVDs with match footage and tech on them, like the famous INH Great Grapple 2004. Absolute banger of a video on an important topic. If there's any other moves I'd like to see this kind of video on, maybe Ukyo's Tsubame Gaeshi across Samsho games?
I'd like to add one small thing at 4:16 - you don't even need to hit with Balloon to cancel it into a normal move. This makes the mixup potentially scarier as you can delay or fake out the double overhead and go low.
I would love to see you talk about C-Nero's 5[C] in MBAACC, it may be the single most versatile (read: "broken") normal I have ever encountered in any fighting game.
The problem with "broken" moves isnt necessarily that they have no counterplay. The main issue is how massively they can distort the meta. When the other player is living in constant fear of some absurdly powerful option you have and their whole gameplan revolves around dealing with it, you have a problem. Its just bad game design. Of course, if the powerful move is a part of the characters archetype or a core feature of the character, like pots command throw, then its fine. Alot of really old games were made by designers who didnt know what they were doing because fighting games were still in their infancy and the results were all over the place.
so like, that's a subjective value judgement. it's not objectively bad game design to be primarily playing around a dominating handful of options, whether or not that's "fun" depends solely on... what you personally find fun. you dont have to enjoy it lol, but it's an unusual play experience that, as you observe, you often can't really get out of newer titles; and to some extent, that's literally why these older titles have ongoing playerbases, because people want that experience and can't really get it anywhere else.
@@martmine4618 i wrote about rather a lot other than fun, the thrust of my point was that "objectively bad game design" as a judgement inevitably makes an arbitrary call as to what your metric of "objective" game design is. it's true that i did not read him as carefully as i could have, but it's not like you made much of an effort to read me either.
I'd actually argue that giving a character a clear identty behind a specific gameplan to adapt to a threatening move is beneficial to the game rather than an issue A large problem with fighting games during the time period, and hell, even Karnov itself, was that they were all recycling the same ideas with few exceptions. If you throw a move like that on any character, you've got a unique trait that differentiates itself. Plus, sometimes the counterplay is actually *better* than the "actual" game in other matchups. That's subjective though.
Damn what a fantastic video with brilliant production behind it too. I definitely agree and have experienced so many numpties talk down to me with their bad information that had been passed down to them, giving them a simple and surface level understanding of a topic that I specialise in.
I’ve literally never heard of this game, but Balloon by itself makes me want to give it a try. I come from platform fighters, so jumping in other 2D fighters-including airdashers-has always felt really restrictive. So being able to initiate a free-form drift at any point during your jump -and skip neutral- sounds super sick.
You might like kof actually mai in 2002 has a ton of aerial movement options as well as kof having a surprising amount of impact on platform fighting movement
Ok, so about Trovao. The "Full screen safe on block drill". I'm a Gio main and I can confidently say that it is neither of those things. It is absolutely not fullscreen, it's barely half screen, it's only projectile invulnerable *after* it starts, it has a ton of startup (27 frames), and a ton of recovery (15 frames) meaning it's EXTREMELY committal to throw out. It's not a neutral skip in the slightest, it'll get you killed for throwing it out whenever.
Love the new look! Especially around the second half where it all comes together nicely. Really love they way the whole video feels like it's presented in a 3D space! Can't wait for the next one!
This reminds me of Melee Fox's shine (reflector) move. It has a frame 1 startup, in invulnerable on that same frame (so you can't grab armor them), at frame 4 or so you can jump out of it and do it again, or wavedash out of it to follow up on opponents, off-stage it send at a gross angle that makes it really hard to get back alive, cancels falling momentum so you can mixup falling timing, and no matter the percentage it sends the same amount so it's consistent as well. So it's often referred to as broken by people outside of melee. However there's a lot of counterplay to shine, like "Smash DI" which lets you use the electric effect of the move and the frames of impact to force your character way out of range of the move's followups, can be used off-stage to keep you close enough to get back, with ASDI down you can potentially grab it right afterwards, or you can wavedash back a bit and grab (it has a small-ish range), or pivot and counter hit, or simply jump with an aerial attack to make using the move really hard to pull off without getting hit. A lot of top level players know about this but most outsiders just see the shine spam and get killed by it a lot themselves so they assume it's broken without counterplay. I feel like there's a lot of parallels.
Good Editing and I love hearing your takes on game balance. Even though I'm not terribly well versed in fighting games, having dabbled in modding other games, I really like your takes on game balance. The Play vs Counterplay arguments, mixups and prediction is really insightful. Even in PvE situation having a strong or OP strat is great for new players and lets vets challenge themselves by deciding to not use it or finding similar work arounds.
There was a move in mortal kombat that once had 34 variations, was hard to dodge, and was unblockable. It was since then nerfed, but it was a time to be had when if your opponent picked the character, you had a low chance of winning
Fantastic video! I love the emphasis on "interesting" over "balanced". Reminds me of a Halo 2 developer talk, paraphrased: "I don't think of game balance as evenness. We think of balance like stacking stones - duration. Will players keep coming back because the game is interesting? That's the balance I want"
I immediately recognized Rubbish's editing on this video. They absolutely have the greatest production value in the world of FG content tbh. And, thank you for making a video to talk about this sort of thing and concept through an unlikely source.
damn man, production value is rising here! looking great! congrats! and nice to understand this game finally, ive seen jwong playing it and got me curious, if you did more videos on this game would be awesome!
Damn man! I loved your videos before but all the work in editing was so awesome! The presentation is absolutely incredible! Congratulations and thank you for your hard work!
MVC2 had a nice progression over the dreaded AHVB, which threatened to kill the game in its 1st year. After a few years multiple characters became fast enough to be able to deal with Cable and his AVHB. and then you have examples like 3Strike where Yun/Chun were 1A/1B from year one until today. T
Man, your editing is top-notch. Great vid overall and that move definitely is "interesting" haha. Thinking about it more, I have definitely been quick to judge moves in the past myself, especially during the SFxT days. But yeah, it's wild now seeing how quickly discussions become a tale of two extremes on Twitter.
Before this video I had only ever heard the name Karnov's Revenge in passing and definitely didn't know anything about it specifically, but this was an incredibly interesting video and the presentation was beyond top notch.
Awesome ideas as always, buuuut the new editing style makes everything so much clearer and punctuates your text (And also just looks and sounds fantastic)
The most infamous move I could think of was the good old Dimensional Cape from Brawl. A move with basically no counterplay since, due to a design oversight, Metaknight is invincible and invisible for however long the player wanted it to be. While Metaknight cannot jump during this, so you can escape to a platform to avoid it, the problem is that you can end up in a situation where you're behind on lives and cannot catch up since the Metaknight player is completely untouchable. You lose to a time out. Obviously this exploit was banned, since there's really no good counterplay to it, but it does go to show that there are times where you can't just adapt. To be fair, these moves are usually a result of oversights and mistakes rather than design decisions.
6:45 Owner of the channel says this when melee Fox's shine is the ultimate combo starter, edge guard tool, shield pressure tool, both invincible and active on frame 1 and reflects projectiles and is jump cancellable as early as frame 4 in a game where wavedash's first component is jump. Oh and it also comboes into itself, defines fox's neutral and while it's not the biggest hitbox in the game, it's alwase safe to throw. And Falco has a better neutral skip, it's just called Falco's lazer. You can throw it, it has 3 frames startup and ends really fast, can be fast fallen, allows Falco to control the space and control the pace of the match, is a combo starter, is a good snipe edgeguarder. Litterally melee's competitive players are forced to learn to deal with it in order to get far. Also the only way to 100% not get destroyed by this projectile is to reflect it, luckily everyone can reflect projectiles with perfect shields
The new editing style is cool but honestly I like your older basic style better. The arcade border takes up a lot of unnecessary space and, combined with the filter, makes the video kinda overwhelming and hard to watch on smaller screens. Great video nonetheless!
Balloon seems really interesting, at least. I think that's what makes older 'broken' games like this, mvc2 etc so beloved, because it's fun and unique first and foremost
4:30 looks like absolutely hell to deal with… Really impressive production! I have no idea how to do a bunch of that stuff… and it’s so far above and beyond, when just talking about a near broken move.
such a cool examination. can't believe your channel doesn't have more subs, hoping you blow up! The flexibility of the move really reminds me of Fox and Falco's "Shine" (down+b) in SSBM. A 1f invincible move that can cancel into all sorts of shenanigans. Melee was also never patched, and it's cool to see how players have simply adapted and played around dealing with that move. Great point about having to see single moves in context and not in a vaccuum.
It's reasonable to assume that the reason attacks like this exist is because the development process boiled down to designing the characters, designing the attacks and what they *should* do, and then being put under crunch to program it all with testing only ensuring that everything works. No roundtable discussions or committees discussing every minute detail of every attack.
I think Meta Knight is an interesting case, like Karnov people who didn't really play Brawl, or played it at a lower level, misunderstood how broken he was. He was top 1 and extremely popular, but his popularity in tournament was more from how fun he was to play than his strength (Most of Brawl wasn't a very fun game lol).
See, I'd agree if it were simple. As it stands, any player introduced to this will not have fun, and will be forced to study it to counterplay it. By saying "it's fine", you're dooming the game to have a minute audience all because of one single move on one single character. Sorry, but that's broken.
Reminds of how the original Street Fighter 2 was intended to be you and your opponent try to land as many single hits as possible until only one is still left standing. Then people found out you can combo and this really broke things because a well versed player would delete an opponents health bar since the game didn't take combo damage into consideration. It can become hard to attract new players to a game when your opponent gets turned into a spectator.
You use the sickest music in your videos. Was about to see Monolord live. Damn shame I got sick that week. At least here I can combine it with my second favorite hobby.
I'm very impressed with this video. You made your points and supported them very well and I loved the editing and creative effects going on here. Just an outstanding video. I'm still happy to call this move broken, though. I love broken stuff in fighting games, all my favorite games have crazy overpowered things that could be called "broken" but it balances when lots of characters have cheap stuff. To me, "broken" is a term of endearment.
Very good vid, with great editing too! Never expected to see such an indepth vid about fucking KARNOV. Would love to see more vids on a specific move in the future.
@TheoryFighter So it did get changed, in the SNES follow up (Fighter's History: Mizoguchi long name I can't remember), they made it so that if you do it on the ground, it makes you go backwards into the air (but I find holding up-forwards after the motion negates that effect) Not sure if they changed anything about the invulnerability, it just seems the same, you can't combo into it from any air normal as far as I can tell, but you can combo after doing the balloon attack One last big change that still makes it completely broken, if you do the air version on a cornered opponent, it hits multiple times, regardless if you are blocking or not, and that can lead to followups That's not the only Karnov move that is broken though, his charge kicks are also completely broken, doing it into the opponent leaves you point blank and plus (I'm pretty sure) and pushes you pretty far into them, so they have little chance of getting out of a loop What do you think of these changes?? (The SNES game is very weirdly balanced and I have a feeling it was unfinished because it seems pretty easy to fix the bugs they left, they added new moves to characters that either really help, or don't help at all, I can't really find an example that's in-between, and it has a weird character selection, leaving out their more iconic characters (Ray, Samchay, Marstorious, Jean, Matlok) and only added an overpowered Chelnov)
One more thing to add, the stages in that game are pretty thin, so you have a high chance of getting cornered, all the reason Karnov can just get into your face
Sadly developers can’t afford to go outta there way and try something wild because of profits. Making games isn’t about making fun entertainment but rather making profit, that’s why when an indie developer does something unique it blows up because they have less risk in doing so.
This entire conversation reminds me of brawl meta knight. A super strong character that defines the entire meta game and while many people hate this, just as many people love how ridiculous the meta game is cause of him
Reductive is the absolute best word to apply to the majority of online fighting game discourse and I'm glad you used it here. Broken is a term thrown around so often to the point of abuse where if pressed what the term actually means, you'll get a different answer every time. Kinda want to see you do a video on how balance isn't really a correlation to a fighting game being fun (or even good) or not seeing your takes in this video.
This game is insane and I absolutely love it! Also wow, the video editing is absolutely S tier. I had to pickup my jaw from the floor after 5:35 to 6:00
You're quickly becoming my favourite fg channel. Amazing production value. 3s Yun, makes me say man, this is bullshit, but when i double dp out of taunt, the yun is saying the same. The power to patch can do great things, but patching the fun out before we knew it was there can be a shame, and devs wont take a risk on something theyll likely have to patch. fun over balance is something ive always felt so its cool to hear you convey it so well
Damn, this video looks really nice. Great job, man. Did you make this alone or do you have a team? The jump in production values / visual quality is really fantastic, keep it up! On topic: Taking moves like these out of FGs is also meaning to take the fun out of them imho, gotta love the crazy things from the olden days! I feel there is hardly anything like this happening in games nowadays and it is a bit of a shame. IMHO: too much emphasis on balance and focusing too much on the competetive side of things is actually hurting the genre somewhat, instead I'd say we should embrace the insanity and make everyone ridiculously broken instead.
It’s funny how broken moves in fighting games are never the fullscreen laser or the instakill combo, it’s always just some low kick that lingers a bit too long and single handedly invalidates half the cast
Sometimes it is the instant kill combo though
@@ATMOSK1234 Yeah but without the visual layer of abstraction nobody's gonna jump to the instant-kills defense.
Yup. In Battle Arena Toshinden for PSX, if you play as Rungo, and do a standing punch (square button), he bashes quickly with his club. Thing is, it has shitloads range and recovers faster than opponents damage animation, this meaning that you can infinity kill anyone in the game by simple pokes.
Reminds me of melee. Fox's defining tool is his frame 1, invincible shine. Puff's defining tool us her gigantic 12% back air. Samus's defining tool is... crouching. Just crouching. And its probably the tool that annoys newer players the most.
R.O.B. dtilt ☠
Throwing your entire body is a pretty effective form of attack. Also, loving the increase in production value
Ah yes, the old "Swamp Stage" technique.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
@@TheKing-qz9wd Disagree all you want, perfection is perfection 👌 👌
Throwing the enemy's entire body is pretty effective too. Clearly the best solution is to play a grappler and do REAL SOVIET DAMAGE!
@@lilwyvern4 unga bunga all the way
You didn't mention the bull :(
(i mean to be fair it's obscure WITHIN obscure, but when you beat the story mode of this game without dropping a round, you get a secret fight against a literal bull. Fought against with proper mechanics. It is unplayable without hacking, has a lot of broken boss character properties, and probably wouldn't fit well in this video but like... it's a goddamn bull)
Thanks for the info!
Saw it in MUGEN
Hope it makes it to Switch!
XD
It's not a bull, it's an ox. With muscles.
@@Ephraim225 So the MUGEN I saw renamed the MooBro...
XD
It's not the only one. One of the opponents in Human Killing Machine (the pseudo-sequel to Tiertex's Atari ST port of the first Street Fighter) is a matador, and after defeating him you then fight the bull. It's not even the first animal you fight in that game.
@@GreenChillZone
That
Is
HILARIOUS!
XD
The editing on this video was absolutely incredible TF and I'm really excited to see you develop this style more. And as always, I'm incredibly supportive of any mindset that encourages more thought to afforded to fighting games and how they can be navigated.
"Balloon!" Haha what a hilarious move.
I would love to see an analysis of Claw's wall dive from ST. It's the most dynamic move I've come across. It's often called broken but it can be countered with any character by a knowledgeable player.
It's dynamic nature would make for an interesting video.
Claw Dive has both counterplay and counter counterplay. It's why Hyoball is such an effective tactic. Claw can mix up his offense to mess with the opponent just as much if not more than they can respond after getting knocked by it. 2012's Tournament of Legends is a pretty good place to see just how effective it is and some good counters.
Cool thanks. I will check that out.
There is a TH-cam channel called"mao". He's a Japanese player that posts lots of claw matches. That's where I got a lot of my strats. It's also really fun to just hang out on Fightcade2 and spectate live matches. Hell, you could of seen me on there kicking that @$$ with claw about 10 minutes ago.
@@riggel8804 Mao's the Claw player in the Tournament of Legends so I think we both got a good idea of what he can do. 8D
@Darian Hagan I wouldn't say it's broken. It's really hard to pull off. It only works on certain characters when they are turtleing. For example it doesn't work on Blanka even when he is turtleing. I rarely see Vega's super pulled off with experienced players. Personally I can only pull it off on someone who I am dominating after they start turtleing. Also the movement and timing for the super is difficult.
@@riggel8804 The idea is that the super's not really required. If you miss the input for the super, you still get the grab. And if they're too far away you still get the claw dive. Both put the opponent back in the same situation as before which is the reason Claw's so busted. He hits or grabs ya and does it again till he wins or you guess right and go back to neutral against a very fast character with good pokes who can start the dive shenanigans again when he gets a knockdown.
If you watch ST any Claw players who has a full super will be inputting for the Super Izuna Drop every single time they do a wall dive because there's no reason not to.
Seeing Fighter's History being discussed like this makes me genuinely so happy, this series has been beaten into the ground for years now, and watching someone recognize and talk about something good about it is extremely refreshing. Thanks a lot, man.
Crazy editing on this one, props for the editor for making this video so much more interesting.
Calling something broken is a day one option select lmao. Excellent writing already. Btw TF, the audio mixing has improved drastically. Your voice is clear as day. The music is much clearer as well, but mixed in just right to add texture without muddying up your very British accent.
I agree wholeheartedly with this video, and the sentiment that it is really easy for the mob mentality to take over when no nuance is put forth. However, I also believe this same argument *could* be used easily to dismiss any form of criticism. Not in the case of this video, as it provides information on the move, its usage, its counterplay, how it affects the meta, and most important personally, the move according to every other options available at the moment. But, my problem is that I've seen far too many times when the answer back to criticism is "you have to adapt" or "get good", without providing anything back in answer. Like I said, this video is the perfect example on how to NOT do that, it presents the case and all the details about it, just saying that the mob mentality generalization can also go both ways.
Short Version: The fact that an obstacle can be overcome does not preclude it from being unwarranted or detrimental. ;) In this particular case, I do see how such an experience could leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.
Literally Pikachu from Smash Ult, and the preachers who kept the rat from being nerfed since day 1.
It's not mob mentality when I've never seen this game nor do I know anyone who plays this game nor have I ever seen any criticism of this game. The fact that he admits the devs would nerft this attack if possible is proof enough that it's broken. :)
@@7F0X7 It is very much the definition of mob mentality to go off word of mouth despite having never experienced it first hand to determine your own opinion on it though
@@aliasmcgames So if I have experience with the game, then I'm part of the "mob mentality", but if I've never played it or heard about it, and I come to a negative conclusion about the game from watching this video, then my opinion is not valid.
LOL what a stupid comment.
Definitely worth the wait for the upgrade in presentation and editing. I hope this becomes the standard for the channel, great work!
The issue with this same topic is that people tend to get used to and learn counter-plays for things that are not interesting, can be spammed ad nasium and don't require a lot of skills to abuse. Once they do learn how to play around it, any complain gets side-tracked as "git gud" or "lizard-priest is not even top 3 on pro-play". And sure, these thing may not be so important in the higher echelons, but it creates a really UNFUN learning curve where these moves dominate most of your time.
Fun is completely subjective. And honestly your entire complaint sounds like the people who complain about parrying solving a ton of issues in ds1. If you don't like the game don't play it.
@@Envy11235 So are "interesting" and "fair". Your comment is such a non-answer it hurts.
I loved this discussion, because anyone who views a move without the full context its being used in can easily call something broken, the same can happen with entire characters if given the wrong idea of where they sit in the game. Take a look at any marvel game, and you can identify any number of moves or characters who would individually be called broken, but that's because it's a 3v3 game series, and TOD combo's are a part of the fun, so any individual move being too good is much less of an issue.
Unless your vergil then just be broken
TOD?
@@mrosskne A TOD refers to a touch of death combo, in a team fighting game it's a combo that will kill a character, provided you have the resources to do it.
It is easy to write off Fighters History Dynamite as just being a Street Fighter 2 rip-off, but it is a surprisingly competent fighting game, and actually ended up again one of my favourites for the Neo Geo. I wouldn't call it the best fighting game on the Neo Geo, but it's one of my favorites.
And it isn't surprising that he would be a powerful character, considering he's the final boss of the game.
I think Fighter's History and Karnov's Revenge are very underappreciated. Glad some FGC channels are exploring it. 🙂
Love the new presentation! Love the flexible concepts around balloon as well. It reminds me of the numerous counterplay options to crouch cancelling in MvC2.
Happy karnovemnber.
Wow, this video is absolutely stunning. This feels like one of those old VHS tapes or DVDs with match footage and tech on them, like the famous INH Great Grapple 2004. Absolute banger of a video on an important topic. If there's any other moves I'd like to see this kind of video on, maybe Ukyo's Tsubame Gaeshi across Samsho games?
I'd like to add one small thing at 4:16 - you don't even need to hit with Balloon to cancel it into a normal move. This makes the mixup potentially scarier as you can delay or fake out the double overhead and go low.
I would love to see you talk about C-Nero's 5[C] in MBAACC, it may be the single most versatile (read: "broken") normal I have ever encountered in any fighting game.
where's the axl pfp
Biohazard! lol
Its because he literally has no other nuetral button but i guess thats what happens when you dont wanna fight with arms
@@Yadadameanfool He has j.C, j.B, 4C, 2C, a massive 2A, deer, crow, and snakes.
@@Yadadameanfool I mean if you look well at it, his J.C is fighting with an "arm". An arm with a massive amount of black stuff on it
Or the snakes.
Hell yeah, Karnov's Revenge representation. Good video to round out #Karnovember
"developers are afraid to innovate"
Goldlewis busts in with his pizza wheel, and happy chaos shoots everyone in the face.
happy chaos is just elphelt lol
@@isaacsteele7986 yeah, i know he's different. i just wanted to own this liberal with facts and logic
Your videos have come a long way from your early thesis videos! Even as someone passionate about FGs, I learned a ton from this video.
The problem with "broken" moves isnt necessarily that they have no counterplay. The main issue is how massively they can distort the meta. When the other player is living in constant fear of some absurdly powerful option you have and their whole gameplan revolves around dealing with it, you have a problem. Its just bad game design. Of course, if the powerful move is a part of the characters archetype or a core feature of the character, like pots command throw, then its fine. Alot of really old games were made by designers who didnt know what they were doing because fighting games were still in their infancy and the results were all over the place.
so like, that's a subjective value judgement. it's not objectively bad game design to be primarily playing around a dominating handful of options, whether or not that's "fun" depends solely on... what you personally find fun. you dont have to enjoy it lol, but it's an unusual play experience that, as you observe, you often can't really get out of newer titles; and to some extent, that's literally why these older titles have ongoing playerbases, because people want that experience and can't really get it anywhere else.
He's not even talking about fun or not. You didn't even pay attention to what he said.
@@martmine4618 i wrote about rather a lot other than fun, the thrust of my point was that "objectively bad game design" as a judgement inevitably makes an arbitrary call as to what your metric of "objective" game design is. it's true that i did not read him as carefully as i could have, but it's not like you made much of an effort to read me either.
I'd actually argue that giving a character a clear identty behind a specific gameplan to adapt to a threatening move is beneficial to the game rather than an issue
A large problem with fighting games during the time period, and hell, even Karnov itself, was that they were all recycling the same ideas with few exceptions. If you throw a move like that on any character, you've got a unique trait that differentiates itself.
Plus, sometimes the counterplay is actually *better* than the "actual" game in other matchups. That's subjective though.
The editing on this is actually incredible. I look forward to what other incredible stuff you pull in your future videos.
WAKE UP BABE KARNOV VID
Damn what a fantastic video with brilliant production behind it too.
I definitely agree and have experienced so many numpties talk down to me with their bad information that had been passed down to them, giving them a simple and surface level understanding of a topic that I specialise in.
Peter it makes me happy to see another doom fan that's into fighting games! Love your work haha
I’ve literally never heard of this game, but Balloon by itself makes me want to give it a try. I come from platform fighters, so jumping in other 2D fighters-including airdashers-has always felt really restrictive. So being able to initiate a free-form drift at any point during your jump -and skip neutral- sounds super sick.
You might like kof actually mai in 2002 has a ton of aerial movement options as well as kof having a surprising amount of impact on platform fighting movement
@@isaiahtorok7079 Noted! Already had an eye on KOF 2002
Try Melty Blood, it has the best air movement and freedom out of every FG, you can even drift in the air after neutral jumps
Ok, so about Trovao. The "Full screen safe on block drill". I'm a Gio main and I can confidently say that it is neither of those things. It is absolutely not fullscreen, it's barely half screen, it's only projectile invulnerable *after* it starts, it has a ton of startup (27 frames), and a ton of recovery (15 frames) meaning it's EXTREMELY committal to throw out. It's not a neutral skip in the slightest, it'll get you killed for throwing it out whenever.
Love the new look!
Especially around the second half where it all comes together nicely.
Really love they way the whole video feels like it's presented in a 3D space!
Can't wait for the next one!
The editing in this is insane! You're amazing at this, I love your fighting game videos.
The production and editing is phenomenal. Wow. Great video in terms of the actual subject too of course!
This reminds me of Melee Fox's shine (reflector) move. It has a frame 1 startup, in invulnerable on that same frame (so you can't grab armor them), at frame 4 or so you can jump out of it and do it again, or wavedash out of it to follow up on opponents, off-stage it send at a gross angle that makes it really hard to get back alive, cancels falling momentum so you can mixup falling timing, and no matter the percentage it sends the same amount so it's consistent as well. So it's often referred to as broken by people outside of melee.
However there's a lot of counterplay to shine, like "Smash DI" which lets you use the electric effect of the move and the frames of impact to force your character way out of range of the move's followups, can be used off-stage to keep you close enough to get back, with ASDI down you can potentially grab it right afterwards, or you can wavedash back a bit and grab (it has a small-ish range), or pivot and counter hit, or simply jump with an aerial attack to make using the move really hard to pull off without getting hit. A lot of top level players know about this but most outsiders just see the shine spam and get killed by it a lot themselves so they assume it's broken without counterplay.
I feel like there's a lot of parallels.
That Ryu timeline was awesome; EX3 at "please no" killed me lol
Good Editing and I love hearing your takes on game balance. Even though I'm not terribly well versed in fighting games, having dabbled in modding other games, I really like your takes on game balance. The Play vs Counterplay arguments, mixups and prediction is really insightful. Even in PvE situation having a strong or OP strat is great for new players and lets vets challenge themselves by deciding to not use it or finding similar work arounds.
There was a move in mortal kombat that once had 34 variations, was hard to dodge, and was unblockable. It was since then nerfed, but it was a time to be had when if your opponent picked the character, you had a low chance of winning
I have no memory of such a move, do you know which one it is and in which game?
@@soulwarrior5791 Mortal Kombat 11
Sheeva stomp
Chief's been doing 6 overheads since the beginning of time
Truly revolutionary.
Fantastic video! I love the emphasis on "interesting" over "balanced". Reminds me of a Halo 2 developer talk, paraphrased: "I don't think of game balance as evenness. We think of balance like stacking stones - duration. Will players keep coming back because the game is interesting? That's the balance I want"
I immediately recognized Rubbish's editing on this video. They absolutely have the greatest production value in the world of FG content tbh. And, thank you for making a video to talk about this sort of thing and concept through an unlikely source.
damn man, production value is rising here! looking great! congrats!
and nice to understand this game finally, ive seen jwong playing it and got me curious, if you did more videos on this game would be awesome!
>Notorious
>Karnov's
Pick one
What's the difference?
Damn man! I loved your videos before but all the work in editing was so awesome! The presentation is absolutely incredible!
Congratulations and thank you for your hard work!
5:42 Man, that CRT filter makes the snow stage background look so much nicer than in the actual game 😅
You know the video is gonna be good when it opens with Vanilla Ice tandem combo nonsense.
MVC2 had a nice progression over the dreaded AHVB, which threatened to kill the game in its 1st year. After a few years multiple characters became fast enough to be able to deal with Cable and his AVHB. and then you have examples like 3Strike where Yun/Chun were 1A/1B from year one until today. T
Man, your editing is top-notch. Great vid overall and that move definitely is "interesting" haha. Thinking about it more, I have definitely been quick to judge moves in the past myself, especially during the SFxT days. But yeah, it's wild now seeing how quickly discussions become a tale of two extremes on Twitter.
Before this video I had only ever heard the name Karnov's Revenge in passing and definitely didn't know anything about it specifically, but this was an incredibly interesting video and the presentation was beyond top notch.
Fighting game video essays and doom metal? Fucking subbed. Can't wait to dig into your previous stuff.
Awesome ideas as always, buuuut the new editing style makes everything so much clearer and punctuates your text (And also just looks and sounds fantastic)
Balloon was invented by the ancient Karnovians to manage No Neutral November
It is balloon!
The most infamous move I could think of was the good old Dimensional Cape from Brawl. A move with basically no counterplay since, due to a design oversight, Metaknight is invincible and invisible for however long the player wanted it to be. While Metaknight cannot jump during this, so you can escape to a platform to avoid it, the problem is that you can end up in a situation where you're behind on lives and cannot catch up since the Metaknight player is completely untouchable. You lose to a time out.
Obviously this exploit was banned, since there's really no good counterplay to it, but it does go to show that there are times where you can't just adapt. To be fair, these moves are usually a result of oversights and mistakes rather than design decisions.
0:39 "Deeming something broken is the day 1 option select that will help you avoid any accountability". Nice :P
6:45 Owner of the channel says this when melee Fox's shine is the ultimate combo starter, edge guard tool, shield pressure tool, both invincible and active on frame 1 and reflects projectiles and is jump cancellable as early as frame 4 in a game where wavedash's first component is jump. Oh and it also comboes into itself, defines fox's neutral and while it's not the biggest hitbox in the game, it's alwase safe to throw. And Falco has a better neutral skip, it's just called Falco's lazer. You can throw it, it has 3 frames startup and ends really fast, can be fast fallen, allows Falco to control the space and control the pace of the match, is a combo starter, is a good snipe edgeguarder. Litterally melee's competitive players are forced to learn to deal with it in order to get far. Also the only way to 100% not get destroyed by this projectile is to reflect it, luckily everyone can reflect projectiles with perfect shields
The new editing style is cool but honestly I like your older basic style better. The arcade border takes up a lot of unnecessary space and, combined with the filter, makes the video kinda overwhelming and hard to watch on smaller screens. Great video nonetheless!
No
Balloon seems really interesting, at least. I think that's what makes older 'broken' games like this, mvc2 etc so beloved, because it's fun and unique first and foremost
Karnov's was a perfect clusterfuck of brokenness. No one was truly broken because everyone was.
4:30 looks like absolutely hell to deal with…
Really impressive production! I have no idea how to do a bunch of that stuff… and it’s so far above and beyond, when just talking about a near broken move.
I dunno if it’s necessarily “broken” also namely because he’s a boss character and the title character.
He should be OP.
such a cool examination. can't believe your channel doesn't have more subs, hoping you blow up!
The flexibility of the move really reminds me of Fox and Falco's "Shine" (down+b) in SSBM. A 1f invincible move that can cancel into all sorts of shenanigans. Melee was also never patched, and it's cool to see how players have simply adapted and played around dealing with that move. Great point about having to see single moves in context and not in a vaccuum.
Fucking cackled at seeing Balloon sail through everyone to just smack Akuma.
Entertaining and Educational.
It's reasonable to assume that the reason attacks like this exist is because the development process boiled down to designing the characters, designing the attacks and what they *should* do, and then being put under crunch to program it all with testing only ensuring that everything works. No roundtable discussions or committees discussing every minute detail of every attack.
Don't tell them it's actually fair! I live for the "what the FUCK" I occasionally hear next to me when I potbuster someone
Shoutouts to Heather
Fantastic production, so glad this showed up in my recommendations!
This is shot and edited so well it's ridiculous. Fantastic work. I'm hitting that bell for sure.
I think Meta Knight is an interesting case, like Karnov people who didn't really play Brawl, or played it at a lower level, misunderstood how broken he was.
He was top 1 and extremely popular, but his popularity in tournament was more from how fun he was to play than his strength (Most of Brawl wasn't a very fun game lol).
What an upgrade, using the editing to display your points very well. Keep it up Mr. Theory
See, I'd agree if it were simple. As it stands, any player introduced to this will not have fun, and will be forced to study it to counterplay it. By saying "it's fine", you're dooming the game to have a minute audience all because of one single move on one single character. Sorry, but that's broken.
Reminds of how the original Street Fighter 2 was intended to be you and your opponent try to land as many single hits as possible until only one is still left standing. Then people found out you can combo and this really broke things because a well versed player would delete an opponents health bar since the game didn't take combo damage into consideration. It can become hard to attract new players to a game when your opponent gets turned into a spectator.
All i really got from this video is "Back in MY days"
Omg these edits are amazing!! Great job!
Visuals and editing on that were terrific. Well done 👍👍👍
Loving the editing improvements here.
Yo, the editing on the Pot sequence was absolutely incredible.
man I did not like looking at this video at all. i feel sick
You use the sickest music in your videos. Was about to see Monolord live. Damn shame I got sick that week. At least here I can combine it with my second favorite hobby.
The editing with CRT effects is amazing!
Your videos keep getting better, super keen for whatever you have in store next
that character looks so funny, I like that one of his most powerful tool is inflating himself
Sick editing, sick essay. Karnov players are another breed.
sick editing and production
I'm very impressed with this video. You made your points and supported them very well and I loved the editing and creative effects going on here. Just an outstanding video. I'm still happy to call this move broken, though. I love broken stuff in fighting games, all my favorite games have crazy overpowered things that could be called "broken" but it balances when lots of characters have cheap stuff. To me, "broken" is a term of endearment.
Monolord works so well for this video.
Very good vid, with great editing too! Never expected to see such an indepth vid about fucking KARNOV. Would love to see more vids on a specific move in the future.
God Dog, production has really went up in these vids. Good job as always!
When it comes to this guy, free balloon day is every day
@TheoryFighter
So it did get changed, in the SNES follow up (Fighter's History: Mizoguchi long name I can't remember), they made it so that if you do it on the ground, it makes you go backwards into the air (but I find holding up-forwards after the motion negates that effect)
Not sure if they changed anything about the invulnerability, it just seems the same, you can't combo into it from any air normal as far as I can tell, but you can combo after doing the balloon attack
One last big change that still makes it completely broken, if you do the air version on a cornered opponent, it hits multiple times, regardless if you are blocking or not, and that can lead to followups
That's not the only Karnov move that is broken though, his charge kicks are also completely broken, doing it into the opponent leaves you point blank and plus (I'm pretty sure) and pushes you pretty far into them, so they have little chance of getting out of a loop
What do you think of these changes??
(The SNES game is very weirdly balanced and I have a feeling it was unfinished because it seems pretty easy to fix the bugs they left, they added new moves to characters that either really help, or don't help at all, I can't really find an example that's in-between, and it has a weird character selection, leaving out their more iconic characters (Ray, Samchay, Marstorious, Jean, Matlok) and only added an overpowered Chelnov)
One more thing to add, the stages in that game are pretty thin, so you have a high chance of getting cornered, all the reason Karnov can just get into your face
Sadly developers can’t afford to go outta there way and try something wild because of profits. Making games isn’t about making fun entertainment but rather making profit, that’s why when an indie developer does something unique it blows up because they have less risk in doing so.
This entire conversation reminds me of brawl meta knight. A super strong character that defines the entire meta game and while many people hate this, just as many people love how ridiculous the meta game is cause of him
Reductive is the absolute best word to apply to the majority of online fighting game discourse and I'm glad you used it here. Broken is a term thrown around so often to the point of abuse where if pressed what the term actually means, you'll get a different answer every time. Kinda want to see you do a video on how balance isn't really a correlation to a fighting game being fun (or even good) or not seeing your takes in this video.
This game is insane and I absolutely love it!
Also wow, the video editing is absolutely S tier. I had to pickup my jaw from the floor after 5:35 to 6:00
the video production is fckin wonderful, btw. Don't think it goes unnoticed.
Despite being bottom tier , Ryoko having air firewheel to toss Karnov out of balloon is super satisfying.
Jesus, i think i found my new fighting games analysis channel now
First video of yours I've seen but I love your style!
You're quickly becoming my favourite fg channel. Amazing production value.
3s Yun, makes me say man, this is bullshit, but when i double dp out of taunt, the yun is saying the same. The power to patch can do great things, but patching the fun out before we knew it was there can be a shame, and devs wont take a risk on something theyll likely have to patch. fun over balance is something ive always felt so its cool to hear you convey it so well
Damn, this video looks really nice. Great job, man. Did you make this alone or do you have a team? The jump in production values / visual quality is really fantastic, keep it up!
On topic: Taking moves like these out of FGs is also meaning to take the fun out of them imho, gotta love the crazy things from the olden days! I feel there is hardly anything like this happening in games nowadays and it is a bit of a shame. IMHO: too much emphasis on balance and focusing too much on the competetive side of things is actually hurting the genre somewhat, instead I'd say we should embrace the insanity and make everyone ridiculously broken instead.
Content aside, editing was sick. Good job!
Oh, so THIS is where Dno's emote comes from
Dude not even cable TV puts as much effort as you calm down it makes me guilty of watching for free 😅
You're one of my favorite TH-cam channels, keep it up.
Haha. Saw the silhouette and thought BALLOON!!! right away.