Special Moves and the 512 Rule
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.ค. 2021
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#fgc #tutorials #streetfighter - เกม
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"...Judging as how people wake up in strive" LMFAO
A faint _"VOLCANIC VIPER!!!"_ can be heard in the distance.
If robbing people with wakeup potbuster is wrong I don't want to be right
COUNTER!!
COUNTER!!!
All those failed wakeup supers...
I love it when my opponent blocks on wake up, then I throw their asses 3 times in a row.
I read the title and thought "What the hell kind of move input is neutral, down back, down"
Same lmao
Sounds like me trying to get to down from neutral.
That's me trying to Korean backdash.
Sup loser
Actually, that kinda does sound like a QCF motion.
Not the normal QCF, the QCF Zangief had for Green Hand in Super Turbo, where you do back, then down
I feel like the 512 rule can also have very, VERY negative effects as well. Namely, if the player is doing a blatantly wrong input when the move comes out, and they know what they were doing when it came out, they might get stuck repeating that incorrect input trying to recreate the effect.
Fortunately, this is "good" for Capcom. They get a big moment to happen which might lead to putting it more quarters even if the player(s) never finds out why the move happened.
Turbo mode was partially implemented for the sake of getting more people to put in quarters by Capcom according to Itsuno.
Another 512 Rule issue may be getting specials when you don't want them which puts you into trouble but they tend to be pretty strong on hit or block in SF2, so it isn't necessarily bad.
So the cpu in SF2 doesn't cheat with non-charged Flash Kicks and the like, it just gets lucky all the time. Lesson learned.
actually the cpu in sf2 does cheat, desk did a video on it i think
@@AuntBibby it was a joke
@@pizzaiolom oh....... sry
"ohh the dolphin is cute" - A Totsugeki warrior has been born!!!
Y a m a d a - s a n
Literally me I shit you not I started the game not even 5 minutes after 3 minutes of loading I said "omg this character is adorable!!" And I've been breaking ribs with dolphins ever since
She probably went to floor 9 first day one the moment she discovered totsugeki
I didn't learn how to do a dp motion flawlessly just to wake up and block. What are you gonna do, punch me, rc, carry me to the corner and delete 90% of my health? Didn't think so.
Potemkin quietly performs a half circle back
I quietly hold back
The ken flowchart flows in our veins brotha
I remember when i was growing up, my dad always thought that you had to use 50 moves in a row in order to do zangief's piledriver, because he apparently heard some kid tell him that when he was in school. I wonder if this became a rumor because of the 512 rule
i'm a year late but i wouldn't doubt it. there were crazy rumors about every game back then. one such rumor was on monster rancher, my brother told me he heard that if you were really mean to your monster, and let it die, it would come back as a playable ghost. i did it with one of my favorite monsters, and...it didn't work of course. i was crushed. now, we realize that you CAN unlock a playable ghost, but not through the way we thought.
another example, is gta. back in the day, you had to get your cheat codes through forums, magazines or word of mouth. there were TONS of fake cheat codes on forums back in the day. 100s. i still don't know why people did that, but it was frustrating as hell.
@@ryukaganzeroful don't forget Pokèmon, and the rumors of Mew hiding under the truck, the secret fourth starter evolutions and the legendary Missingno and Pokerus (which ended up being real)!
You know what would be complete madness? Someone doing a tas of the 512 rule, that is they are only allowed to block and use specials from the 512 rule
Even better, a charge-input only showcase where you combo off of forward input moves with charge specials from 512 :')
Was just thinking the same, although I dunno if the rng for it has been documented... might need to use the MAME debugger and study the disassembly.
@@ultralowspekken desk just did that using the glitch that hd remix had :)
How the hell did arcade players play Darkstalkers without command lists
The one in my local Arcade had them screen stickers with the movelist
Samurai Shodown 2 and further sequels actually showed the input when the CPU did a move (replacing the name under the health bar) so watching the Attraction Mode would let you know the moves..eventually
XD
considering darkstalkers really wasnt as popular as sf, i think most people just didnt play it at arcades
As a kid I thought rush down/speed characters were always the best cause I would button mash and those characters would actually react to my mashing.
An important corollary to this, I think, is that special moves should *look* special. I spent a good two years back in the early nineties convinced that I wanted to play Blank just because his electricity look so cool.
Bandit bringer is the fucking coolest move of all time and it sold me on Sol Dadguy in a heartbeat
This is a gold comment
Blanka, Chun Li and Honda got a lot of people to try em just due to how crazy electricity or dozens of strikes in a second look and also because it is executed by mashing.
It is the kind of special move that is most likely to be be found by someone who doesn't know what they are doing and strong when you get it.
Negative Edge also helps other moves come out more often but it isn't blatantly lying to players in the same way as 512.
@@malikoniousjoe Because it's Power Dunk, and Power Dunk is sick.
They should do combo trials the same way you teach a kid a long word. Break it into pieces. Show how those pieces fit back together. Have them try out smaller combinations of the same thing and then finally make them do the whole word fully.
You can already do that by just breaking it into pieces yourself
Execution isn't my strong suit and I use 'chunking' to learn combos all the time. I've found that long air combos tend to be a bit of a pain as pulling out an airborne piece tends to be finicky.
For every 1 TheoryFighter video, 512 of them will be absolute bangers. It's fucking broken.
Oh man i loved that obama video but that girl picked it up way faster than me
That girl is an occasional pools contestant at fgc tournaments the fact that he called her a "new player" is a joke she's been into fighting games for a long time lol
It's true, she was no stranger to fighting games. I first met her at an anime con playing Street Fighter IV.
Fake fake gamer girl?
@@Darlos9D she’s a real gamer girl pretending to be a fake one to throw people off when she wrecks them in pools. Lol I like this idea. Fake fake gamer girl.
@@johnsorrows8998 kinda weird seeing Obama positive about Strive
5:00 I TOTALLY REMEMBER
A relative of mine gave the fightstick to a kid in the house
After a couple of “jump slaps”. HE SPDs him
XD
My friend just did his first Potemkin Buster against me today, it was the most fun I've had since Strive launched.
I like how Melty Blood did it. Because game in 4x3 on the sides of the screen you have borders with character motion inputs.
Chaos Code as well!
Or at least show us our inputs at loading screen
6:58 while completely true... to be fair GG games actively punish you for being too defensive. They kinda encourage you to unga your way out of scenarios.
You're at a serious disadvantage on block in guilty gear. If you're not attacking you're losing.
so i literally just now realised SPD is short for Spinning PileDriver
huh, that makes sense now
Nah, it's short for speed, which is because of how quickly it deletes your health if Gief gets them off. /j
i always thought it was super piledriver im slow
@@Lem1111 I thought it was screw
@@guy229 Screw Piledriver is the Japanese name, which is now used in the West as well, but it was originally called the Spinning Piledriver in the West.
When I saw this video, all I could think of is one I watched recently where the 512 caused a crazy rare interaction due to its random block of an attack that would be impossible to block in that situation
1:18 literally why I bought mvc3, I wanted to hit the cool move with Phoenix Wright.
Me too bruh
Understandable have a nice day.
A better way would've been to use character intros to show special moves. DMC5 for example does that by constantly having Nero rev his sword during cutscenes and even charging 1 bar of exceed sometimes.
For example in SF2 a round intro could start with Guile vs Ryu throwing a projectile at each other or if it was Zangief vs Ryu, Ryu would throw a Hadouken and Zangief could use a Lariat while getting into the starting position.
That's a pretty good idea which may not even need much more work. My only issue is that if it did exist in SF2, it would slow down things a lot unless it was skippable.
Fatal Fury's solution in 1991 was to show the exact command and a video example directly in the game if you went far enough into arcade mode. I'm pretty sure the game shows all of the special moves for playable characters and that it is skippable.
It also has the "New Challenger" idea from Street Fighter only that the second player joins you against an arcade opponent before fighting you and continuing the arcade run. (Can't kick Geese's arse with two people though)
SFA3 does several character specific matchups where specials are highlighted. You're exactly right they should be more ubiquitous.
For anyone wondering why the number 512 specifically, very likely had to do with the size of the data type used to calculate it. Its likely to be a 2 in 1024 chance, not 1 in 512, as 1024 bits are the amount in a kilobit. They probably had an integer data type of size 1024 and randomly picked a number until it hit 1 or 2 for example.
"an integer data type of size 1024"
I presume you do not mean a 1024 bits integer, which would be stupidly overkill even today, but that you meant an integer able to hold a value from... hmm, nope, makes no sense. A 10 bits unsigned integer would hold a value from 0 to 1023 which would be fine to run a 2 out 1024 roll, but then, why not a 9 bits integer which would be fine to run a 1 out of 512 roll.
The CPS-2 uses 16 bits registers and data bus, nothing is gained or saved by a 9, 10 or 11 bits integer data type.
A 10 bits integer data type? I'd be curious to hear the justification for that. Or what they called it.
"They probably had an integer data type of size 1024"
Why would they have a 10-bit integer type? I've never heard of that. And why would you think it's a 10-bit integer instead of a 9-bit integer? Why would it not just be a check against a regular old 16-bit register with a random value, and they treat it as unsigned and check if it's less than 32?
No, there's no 10 bit integers in common use.
Just ANDing it with a 10 bit (or 9 bit) bitmask is more likely (random_result & 0x3FF) or (random_result & 0x1FF)
Wrong but good try
The CPU used was a Motorola 68000 (same as the Sega Genesis), which had 8-, 16-, and 32-bit integers. An 8-bit integer holds numbers from 0 to 255 (which is 2^8 - 1), which isn't large enough, but a 16-bit integer holds numbers from 0 to 65,535 (which is 2^16 - 1). My guess is they generated a random 16-bit integer and they zeroed out the top 7 bits, which would give you a random 9-bit number from 0 to 511 (which is 2^10 - 1).
It's true that 1024 is the number of bits in a kilobit, but that has no relevance here. The reason the number 1024 was chosen for that is similar, though, because it's a power of 2 (specifically 2^10).
I recently got my friend into Guilty Gear. Before that, he had never played a fighting game. Watching as he learned even the simple stuff reminded me of when I learned about fighting games for the first time. Ultimately, it really does come down to what is cool, because that's how you get people to stay.
I've been checking out FGC videos for a while now and now I (a total newbie) really want to start playing Skullgirls and Guilty Gear for the first time. THANK YOU!!
Hope you have fun!
Always love to hear this! Pick whatever characters seem fun to you and just do whatever you find fun.
Please do, you'll be able to find other people that can play at your level and learn At your own pace. Hope it's as fun for you as the rest of us
I remember learning about the 512 mechanic in the Trivia section of SFII: World Warrior in the 30th Anniversary collection, and thinking it was cool, but also strange.
But the thing I didn’t know was the name, so when I saw this, I thought it was a video about some weird input you did to so something in an old fighting game, cuz most folks give the directions of the stick a number lol
I thought a similar thing, like maybe it was something to do with allowing sloppy DP inputs, but now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure number notations did not exist during older games and is a newer thing that came around as there was more and more global play, and a way to communicate combo's that didnt rely on knowing english or japanese became important.
Funnily enough 521 just means Neutral - Down - Down-back
Maybe a ghetto way to do a QCB input? I dunno
@@Sorrelhas except it's 512 which is neutral, down back, down, making even less sense.
I resonate a lot with this, the other day a friend of mine got interested in third strike so I tried to explain the basics to him, he picked Dudley simply because he looks cool and after struggling with inputs for a bit he learned how to dp, his gameplan evolved into doing sweep into dp, raw super after blocking and cross counter when low on health, and with that I told him to just play without worrying about learning anything else, and he got a lot better in the end, he even managed to beat arcade mode, (though he got destroyed by gill a couple of times). I hope future fighting games do a better job at teaching you how to experience that enjoyment of just playing the game and learning along the way
You post highlights what people were misunderstanding about GG Strive's pride in having a barebones tutorial mode that resulted in people in the lowest floor rare using things like special commands and RC. It showed that they were able to get people who were super new to fighting games comfortable enough to play online and enjoy themselves. And when it comes time to get deeper into the game mission mode is there for them.
That clip is my idea of what fighting should be.
As a kid losing your quarters in seconds to some guy dominating the fighting games there wasn't very convincing. Which is why for the longest time I stayed away from fighters. Seeing hadoukens and sonic booms come out like crazy and all I knew was to button mash.
not everyone is a competitive person, but some people are. some people use losing as motivation to improve, and some dont. and theres nothing wrong with that! but dont project your personal view on to everyone. obviously there was an extremely large number of people motivated by that disparity to improve, improve, and beat their friends or just to get better :P
Bro, i literally got on FGC due to that Majin clip. Thanks for the bringback, love your videos man.
I think KI was the game that just *looked awesome* to me.
Also, combo/counter breakers are like the hypest shit while resolving the “combo’d for 30 days” problem
Everybody wakes up mashes once in a while. Lol
Incredible content. Thanks!
"I want the seal to come out of the ground and hit that motherf*cker with the ball"
- Majin "Lil Bussy Man" Obama
dude the music is always great in these videos
I feel like the moment I had as a kid getting upset playing SNES World Warrior cause my Mom figured out how to Hadouken randomly and I couldn't do it both contributed to why it took me so long to really grasp fighting games AND why I wanted to in the first place.
Obama complimenting Strive? Not used to seeing that
Yooo elephant foot is one of my favorites, sick channel
Thought I heard metal in the background, then I saw your logo at the vid. Nice.
Love your channel logo, metal as fuck
I actually had a similar experience with Blazblue Central Fiction. It was one of the first 2D fighting games I really tried learning and I played (and still do play) Mai. She has a unique mechanic called Variable arts in that game were her normals can be canceled into other normals either on hit or wiff but those other normals can only be canceled into, they can't be done without first using the correct sequence for example any standing normal into 5A gives you a plus on block poke and if you then do 5C you'll get a low hitting projectile. Since these moves aren't on the move list I had no idea how to do them at first but I would occasionally misinput them and I thought a lot of them looked really cool so I found as many of them as I could and it was a ton of fun.
That arcade machine bit reminded me, Soul Edge put character strings on there, and it felt silly
Very interesting how deep fighting games can go.
That James Chen comment made me nostalgic for an era in that I never experienced myself, but sure as hell I whish I did
512 rule is really bad even from a casual perspective Following my logic when I first started playing fighting games
I jump at my brother and try to do a heavy sweep with Guile and suddenly I use Sonic Boom or flash kick
My thoughts aren't "I need to try every input to make this happen again" it's instead " I need to retry the input I just did to do that again"
Effectively making me actually worse at the game that I'm playing because I'm searching for a ghost input that doesn't actually exist
the video youu mention at the start is my favorite youtube video lol. I even showed it to my wife.
The 1/512 chance to do a special move is such an interesting mechanic, I never would have thought of that but now I want to see a game jam themed around it.
The thorough command list and mission mode stuff is EXACTLY what Street Fighter V needed at launch. SFV had barebones single player content and expected you to jump online and be competitive, but capcom gave you almost nothing to work with outside of raw experimentation. I hope that Strive is just the beginning of actual well thought out tutorial and robust introductions to essential gameplay ideas.
I felt like Chun-Li wasn't the heroine of the story, but Karin. Why? Look at how many times Chun-Li has to lose for the story to progress, vs. Karin's body count including multiple Dolls. Also is there a setting on SFV where you can turn the gameplay speed down to like 50%? I had a weird bug that did that when I played it on PC, and that was surprisingly exactly what I needed to comprehend things like "oh, he's jumping in, I can cr.HP"
unsung hero of introducing cool things: loading screens
When I started playing sf2 turbo I remember that I tought that M.bison had no special moves bc I didn't know about charge inputs and I wasn't able to reach his fight.
LMAO XD.
I can't pay atention, im just watching the dog.
I saw the title and the thumbnail and just thought, "wait that can't to be some rule about how much damage she can, right? She kills people."
we want to do cool things and we're more than happy to be told how to do/understand the cool things.
just wish fighting games were better teachers on how to play the game we already bought.
I used to take a notebook to the arcade so I could write down the special moves that were listed on the cabinet.
6:59 Seriously... I'm a Nago main and I can't count the amount of wins I've got with a 5H into Zantetsu because the guy saw Nago's crazed smile and bloodied sword and thought "hey, what if I wake up with far Slash?"
If I block, I can’t do damage though-
Just yesterday night, I played JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Heritage For The Future with a 10 year old who has never played the game before.
I can say from personal experience as well that new players don't care what the input is, if it looks cool, they'll want to do it enough to do it.
I was trying to teach this boi dragon punch inputs, but ended up teaching him Shadow Dio's timestop first because he thought it was cool and wanted to do that. Shadow Dio's timestop command is C6A4S (I think, I may have gotten that slightly wrong, normally takes a minute of experimenting in-game to remember what it was) but he was fine doing it.
He thought Shadow Dio's 623A command grab was cool so he did learn that one after, so yeah he still figured out dp's.
Come on smash players, a 10 year old who has never touched a fighting game is better at doing motion inputs than you.
"... 2 extra damage on Ky's RC throw"
I feel attacked
1:36 can we just talk about strive’s health bars!!!
I remember when me and my brother played a new fighting game we had a rule: Let's give 2 minutes to each one to learn the movesets of a character before starting playing. Those were the times were no wiki had a detailed list of movesets. While I miss those times, I'm glad I can check the skills beforehand.
I've always assumed that in the early days developers didn't realize games had potential to become competitive at a professional level, but nowadays they are taking that into consideration.
Tools to do something exciting or aesthetically pleasing as quickly as possible. I'll remember that.
Didn’t realize the 512 rule applied to me when I first played MV2. Went from button mashing unga bunga megaman to THC go brr pretty colors.
Such a rush from this discovery period.
Gief was always my main, so landing my first clumsy spd after an empty jump, the only way I knew back then to have a 360° connect on the ground, felt great.
By the time of champion edition and Turbo I graduated to buffering and hiding the motion behind normals and I finally started doing more winning than losing with Gief.
And finally by the time of Super and Super Turbo I found out about the input shortcut, ➡️↘️⬇️↙️⬅️↖️⬆️ +P, that made the fabled walk forward spd possible and my commitment to grapplers in fighting games was set in stone.
My point here is that while having access to everything you need to start playing a new fighting game is great it came at the cost of that sense of wonder you had back in the arcade days, when you never knew if there were still moves or secrets waiting to be discovered.
"I wanna make the seal come out the ground and hit that mothafucka with a ball" lmao
I really can't wait for the first fighting game to teach everything through single player.
It'll be an insanely strong concept - to slowly acclimate players to all the concepts the way an RPG slowly teaches players all it's mechanics.
it just cant work that way. you cannot become a strong player through singleplayer. singleplayer lacks all aspects of the mental game, mindgames, self control, reads, conditioning, everything. it also lacks the feeling of pressure, or just the feeling of playing against someone in general. you can teach mechanics through singleplayer, but not ability
@@Spunney You're right on all the stuff you can't teach with singleplayer - but I think everything outside of that is still very worth teaching.
New players don't understand the point of light attacks or blocking. They don't understand the importance of frame data. You can teach that gradually through a fighting game RPG.
@@PurpleFreezerPage i feel like a new player that wouldnt care enough to pick up on these simple mechanics (blocking, light attacks) by just playing the game for a bit wouldnt care about or benefit from them being included in some in-game tutorial either... "you can lead a scrub to water, but you cant make them think" - someone who wasn't me :P
of course, it doesnt hurt a game to have an in-game tutorial teaching people how to get better, but the subset of players who would benefit from that *who wouldnt improve without their inclusion*, i think, is very small. tutorials dont make people seek out motivation, motivation makes people seek out tutorials
I thought you’d be talking about scaling, but that is an interesting rule
Even as a pretty veteran fightie player, i just wanna practice cool and exciting shit
I only know this 512 rule exists because of a video I watched some time ago that was exploring a glitch
Talking Doge makes some good points
The mystical tehnique of BLOCKING
Desk covered this a awhile ago. Pretty cool! :)
th-cam.com/video/f0gFDS3c82E/w-d-xo.html
When I first heard about this mechanic I thought it had to be a leg pull. But nope. I fired up MAME, kept mashing jab, being very careful not to even touch the D-pad or analog stick, and sure enough, eventually a hadoken came out.
Tomo… that is all.
background song name? Sounds like Electric Wizard, Bongripper, Sleep, OM or something else in the drone/fuzz doom genre
I thought this was gonna be something about having a hard limit of 512 special moves on a character.
Say i wont Wake-up DP! Ill do it!
Damn your outro songs are hard
watching my 6 year old daughter get excited when she finally managed to throw her first haduken is a parenting highlight for me
"Hadouken"
"Ken"
Ken mentioned!!!
Plz tell me you are going to make a continuation video of the bounty. I cant wait to hear more about that
I wasnt aware of this rule but makes a lot of scence, it is hard to even remember how things were back then. Something like there is no information on how to make a Fatality
check the replies to the tweet, it was in the SF2 SNES beta and the bounty was claimed
@@Spunney I know that's why I want to see a video about it
You know what's a good way to do this same exact thing?
(No it's not gonna be about Guilty Gear showing you 3 special moves before the arcade mode starts)
Super Gem Fighter / Pocket Fighter.
It's a Street Fighter x DarkStalkers spin off with cartoony graphics.
Even if you had 100% no idea what to do, when you enter a round there's 3 meters at the bottom of the screen that showcase 3 special move inputs (that become stronger with more meter). Even if you didn't know all of a characters' specials, you can always rely on those 3 (and also an easy mode super for every character)
also yes, there's SPD for Zangief ofc
A shine teaching fgs do be futuristic
I remember finding out that doing a SPD command was the 360 motion but I could never do it as a kid. Thought it was impossible.
I got older and randomly did T Hawk's "Hawk Slam" on accident and popped off like crazy!
*there's hope for me after all* 😃
This is like the opposite of the 1/256 rule in Gen1 pokemon
I thought I was watching Leon Massey for the first 5 minutes ngl
Is it bad that the first thing I thought of was neutral, down back, down
juuun
Doing a hard combo in practice mode is fun, but doing it in a match where your muscle memory takes over and tells you to do the easier combo, and actually nailing that tough combo and not missing an input, that's some real satisfaction right there.
Reminds me of King's secret throws
I remember landing my first Shoryuken, then I remember landing Shoryuken in Dictator´s torpedo, Then I remember consistently countering it with Shoryuken. Yes, doing cool things is part of Fighting games genre. Some guys turn this into their "carrer"
majingoatbama
Where can I hear the Super Low Voice podcast?
:)
Im with her that seal is awesome.
Lol at saying Patreon instead of patron
Why the hell did these old games not have any explanation of how to perform special moves? What the hell were the devs thinking? "Just try all sorts of random inputs and you'll figure it out eventually"
A mixture of reasons. One could be technical limitations since they wanted to use all of the storage on expressive sprites, effects and music.
Another could be that they thought that secrets were cool. Tekken didn't explain the EWGF, the most famous attack in the competitive scene till Tekken 7 and didn't have frame data till it sold it in Tekken 7. The series also doesn't display combo counters during matches even if it does doing training mode.
On the note of profit, they may also want to see that information as part of video game guides back in the day.
I actually know a 1991 game which gives players the special move commands directly in the game. Fatal Fury 1. It told you commands for all special moves with video examples, but only when you got further in arcade mode.
SNK arcade games also tend to show the basic control layout after you boot them up, but between arcade games needing to move fast to get your quarters and console games having manuals to stuff information into.
They didn't think that making games give out the full movelist was that important if it potentially meant losing the ability to add music, characters or modes.
Other game series are probably better with information than others.
Back in my teen days, I liked fighting game only as casual (singleplayer content was very importent) and I hated when a fighting game have not a command list build in to see all moves. And thats why Soul Calibur 2 is my favourit (fighting) game back then on the Game Cube. Huge singelplayer content, a good command list, great music and Link. ;P
4 the all consuming all-go-ruthenium
3:02 - Is that Viscant in the blue backward hat?
3:40 "patreons" lol
I hope people don't think that's the actual word haha
Damn the first clip really speaking facts that everyone already understands lol