Universalism Debunked?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ธ.ค. 2024
- Is universalism a false doctrine? Is it heresy?
Doesn't the comparison of "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46 prove that there are both of the same duration?
Christian Universalism
Universalism
Universal Christianity
Universal Salvation
Universal Reconciliation
Hell
Heaven
I love how I get blocked by people for this.
"I believe everything you do, except that hell itself does eventually have an end."
" HERETIC! We can't be brothers." -block.-
That...to me, is proof of their hatred not God's love.
yeah i've argued even recently with christians about this its a shame theres even an argument you can show them all the scriptures that say it but they only believe in eternal hell. Even annihilation is more merciful than ECT. universalism is a whole lot more merciful . another argument i hear is "so christ died for nothing??' no, he died for the whole world duhhh. its a very optimistic belief also.
@@diamondlife-gi7hg For me it's like "why do you need eternal torture?" Do you know how long I would last under torture?... 5 seconds. They take out the hammer and i'll be like " In fourth grade I copied my neighbors homework, I also swiped Lisa Frank stickers from his desk. His name is Bobby, he lived on Lotus Drive and I once did cub scouts with his mom. Shes about 5.8 and makes a great nacho and bean dip."
@@diamondlife-gi7hg
John 3:36 kjv
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
"shall not see life"
"but the wrath of God abideth on him"
@@BoyKagome The Bible says men are "by nature" children of wrath. That doesn't mean they are just sinners - b/c believers are sinners too. It means they are UNBELIEVING sinners. Those who will be cast into the lake of fire are hostile to God. Gnashing of teeth is always directed toward God and His people in the Bible.
Only the believing are saved (1 Tim 4:16). Only the believing are justified (Rom 5:1). Only the believing are resurrected just (Acts 24:15).
Vengeance doesn't make the others just (2 Thes 1:8). Torment doesn't make them just. (Rev 14:11). The second death doesn't make them just (Rev 21:8).
It's the kindness of God that leads men to repentance - not wrath, vengeance, and torment - as the Universalist would claim. Besides, if faith is from God - why will the universalist god be dealing out vengeance on those he didn't give faith to ? - only to then give it to them after punishing them for the faith he didn't give them 🤔🥴
@@Pablo-p7yuntil he believes. “…for God can graft them in again…”
If Jesus paid the penalty that we would have had to pay, and the penalty we would have had to pay is unending torment, then why isn't Jesus still in Hell and do the Infernalists imply that Jesus willingly separated Himself from the Father forever on our behalf? So Jesus can't have a millennial reign because He's in Hell paying the price for our sins? Eternal Torment makes NO sense.
Jesus, being God, infinite and eternal, can pay an infinite penalty in finite time. We being finite, must pay an infinite penalty in infinite time.
@@morefiction3264So…you just made that up. Why would you make a claim like that when you have zero basis to make it? Is it really that important for you to hold onto the lie that God tortures people forever? Why do you wish this to be the case?
@@7bag7 It's not a new idea. Anselm made the argument in the context of why Jesus must be God in _Cur Deus Homo_ in the 11th century.
@@morefiction3264 There’s been many erroneous claims made since the beginning of time. Doesn’t mean you should be carrying on this tradition.
@@7bag7 It's an argument and one that checks out. I suggest reading it.
In revelation when the holy city has been established there's people outside of the city and you can't enter until you get right basically.
great video! would love to hear your thoughts on the debate between conditional immortality and universalism
If every instance of “eternal” and “forever”, the Bible would still make sense when one also considers that the saved are promised immortality (actually “deathlessness”).
Personally, I also read Scripture as an epic poem (a drama with a big twist (the resurrection) and a happy ending). From a poetic perspective, Jesus simply used contrasts to emphasize his point in Matthew 25:46.
"What does contrast do in poetry?
Contrast is a literary technique. It is a method to compare, show the difference, or emphasize meaning by providing the opposite."
And in the context of the overwhelming evidence for all-reconciliation throughout Scripture, I think "punishment" describes a purification and cleansing process that ultimately leads to oneness with God in His ALL- new creation.
Interesting. I just used the pharisee & tax collector as an example of this. The tax collector said “be merciful to me O God a sinner” & went away justified. Jesus does not say that the Pharisee who boasted in his works & condemned the tax collector would never be justified. I think this is an example of old covenant Vs new covenant. The Pharisee represents old covenant the tax collector new covenant. To say the pharisee is condemned would be condemning all of Israel. Rather Jesus is condemning the old covenant or righteousness thru law & showing that the new covenant righteousness thru faith leads to justification.
The idea of unending conscious torment has never made sense to me. Why would a just God inflict infinite pain for sins that are finite. If Hitler had to suffer for the lifetime of every Jew he murdered, even that would eventually end.
I suppose the argument would be that because He is infinitely holy, any offense against Him deserves an equally infinite punishment as a result of such a great offense
Or, that sin results in separation from God, just seems odd to my human brain that God wouldn’t allow individuals to repent after their Earthly deaths. After all, His mercies never come to an end (lamentations 3:22). So why can’t it be that He accepts a little Muslim girl into Heaven after she realizes that Jesus is Lord and desires to be with Him to praise Him forever? Will He keep her in punishment forever?
I don’t know. I know that God’s ways and methods are beyond what my human mind can comprehend. Still, He did give me a mind and surely it’s not a sin to use it haha
Our life is a series of choices, we enter into the reality of our choices in every given moment. In a spiritual sense, everyone is given the opportunity to reject God and this rejection of God is a way of choosing oneself, but we are nothing without God and so the reality of our choice has painful consequences.
I can’t speak to what hell on the other side of this life is like but it seems clear that there is a hell on this side as well. I’ve gotten a taste of that hell in my own life and, honestly, it felt like it would never end. I definitely don’t know how everything works but it seems all too possible that hell is very real.
And who knows if it is eternal or what. Hopefully not, but that’s not for us to know. I think the greatest misstep in Christian living is the temptation to say who is in hell, which is claiming to know more than what is for us to know.
Scripture speaks of only two types of “Salvation “ , or being “saved / healed;”:
1 the true and ultimate, actual Salvation from sin and death in Adam, for all mankind that are condemned in Adam, Including all curses, judgments, etc, a factual and total Salvation that ONLY comes about via Yeshua and Him crucified and resurrected.
Grace, fate, belief, acceptance, knowledge, etc. have nothing to do with this type. Sinful men and women, which is everyone ever created, do not participate whatsoever.
“ it is finished“.
2 The kind of “salvation“ that comes about as soon as one is enlightened and made aware of the first type via fate, belief, through grace, acceptance, knowledge, etc and therefore, one becomes “saved / healed “from the darkness and lies of this world, from their own perspective, even though they were already actually “ Saved” from eternal death in Adam under the first type, but we’re totally unaware of it until YA enlightened them.
Context will determine which type is in view in any given passage.
@@anthonybuonsanto437 are you saying the salvation in number 1 is applied to all men after their physical death?
@@majorcajun5524 do you really believe that when every knee bows and every tongue confesses, their arms are being twisted to do so?
Psalm 1:
1 Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.
4 The wicked are not so,
but are like chaff that the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
6 for the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.
The word "never" is also a word which denotes "duration", as does the word "eternal", and "Love never fails," 1 Cor. 13:8. "God is love", who is the Hope of all hopelessness, who raises rotting corpses to life, who puts life into barren wombs, who gives sight to ones blind from birth, who clothes dry bones with flesh and sinew, who brings camels through eyes of needles. "Only believe. Nothing shall be impossible with God". Love is the Power which is conquering every other power, which raised Jesus from the dead, which even now "holds all things together". To reject the unfailing nature and power of love is to be "slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken". But even that hardness of heart, love will conquer. All "evil" will be "overcome by good" because "the goodness of God leads us to repentance". The whole narrative of scriptures is summed up in the words of St. James, "Mercy rejoices over judgment." The reference of "sheep and goats" is equivalent to "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated". God loves the obedient heart and hates the stubborn heart. Those who originally heard Christ's words would have recognized that both sheep and goats are valuable in spite of their very different natures.
There's a good contextual reason for believing the punishment described in Matthew 25 is limited in scope and duration. Matthew 25 presents Jesus' teaching on the final judgment coming after, or as an extension of his famous Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. This account is paralleled in Mark 13 and Luke 17 and Luke 21. I believe that the Olivet Discourse is primarily about the destruction of the Temple that existed in the first century AD, but that Jesus also utilizes prophetic telescoping which portrays the judgement of the end of the world. This can be seen in the fact that Matthew 25 is clearly presented as an addendum to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew's Gospel.
What is interesting is that at the end of Matthew 24 (verses 45-51), Jesus teaches about being a faithful servant who eagerly awaits his Lord's coming. Unfaithful servants are "cut asunder," "appointed a portion with the hypocrites," where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." The last phrase being used frequently throughout Matthew's Gospel in regards to the eschatological judgment. There should be little doubt that Matthew 24:45-51 is speaking of eschatological judgment and punishment.
The reason that this is significant is that Jesus used similar language in a parallel account earlier in his ministry which is recorded in Luke's Gospel. In Luke's expanded account, Jesus adds the following details: "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." - Luke 12:47-48
It's also interesting that Luke says that the unfaithful servant is allotted a portion with the unbelievers instead of where Matthew has "hypocrites." The fact that the parallel passage in Matthew 24 definitely refers to the eschatological judgment indicates that the unfaithful and hypocritical servants of Christ are allotted their portion with the unbelievers, and these will be punished with few or many stripes depending upon their personal culpability. Even if one uses a translation like the ESV, which translates Luke 12 as a light beating vs. a severe beating, it is noteworthy that not all the unbelievers receive a "severe beating" and that even a severe beating is not an infinite or endless beating. The fact that this lesson by Jesus occurs immediately prior to his teaching in Matthew 25 which concludes a lengthy discourse on the coming judgment and the end of the age makes it seem likely that his immediate audience would not have had infinite or endless punishment in mind.
You need to understand one thing. In Gods people there were always 2 groups of people. Priests and common people,His little once..
There is no judgment at the end,judgment is by the Word,so that man can live..Truth shall set people free..So Mat 25 is temple setup,with High priest in the middle,priests were right,and common people left..So Jesus switched the positions,common people right,and those into common people side..Because they didn't feed little once with bread/Word,gave them drink/Spirit,and they didn't cloth them with salvation..
All warnings are for priest,not common people...but untaught wolfs teach that its about them,and bringing fear to them..not to mention to deceive them..
Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many teachers, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jesus warns only those who want to feed the sheeps...To be very careful what they speak. But its not must ,My brethren, be not many teachers..
Why does no one think the goats are the devil’s angels (ministers/messengers)? Jesus literally says it’s prepared for them yet we don’t even consider that it IS them?
Taking away hell inspires indignation in the high minded self righteous...
The spirit of universal sal. is cleansing in itself.
Now we know what good news actually is !!!
Universalism is good news to the "natural man" because it does away with God's vengeance and wrath.
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Thank you so much for presenting these reflections in easily accessible language that I can understand and with arguments that I can follow!
Bro, God is so good! I love HIM!
My greatest beef with Christian Universalism is that because ALL people (living and deceased) will be saved that we are to bless and thank God for all good AND evil events that affect us. So, all the murders, abortions, rapes, drug trafficking, extortion, corruption, profanities, blasphemy, etc., we should not fret but realize that God allowed it for our good.
If given the choice, I prefer to no longer live in this world than to say nothing about evil.
I have serious reservations myself but what I gather about this channel’s arguments is that it’s rooted more on the idea that those in hell will be punished and purified (ie punishment is not forever. Severe but not eternal) and that by purifying them, they are different people afterwards and are changed to serve the Lord. So those murderers and whatnot would be purified and literally be different penitent people afterwards.
I think that would be his argument? I don’t know 🤷🏾♂️
@@samueljennings4809 when universalists say God will be using "persuasion" or "correction" in the future to bring those resurrected "unjust" (Acts 24:15) to faith - they show they have no understanding of how "regeneration" works. It's instantaneous! You were dead - now you are alive - quickened! After one is saved - THEN they grow in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord. No verse says God's Spirit will be in the lake of fire working righteousness in those cast there. I worship the God of the Bible - not the god who will be dealing out vengeance on those he didn't give faith to - only to give it to them after the punishment.
The problem is that this argument doesn't really work and has nothing to do with universalism being true or not. Because what about diseases and natural catastrophes ? They're not directly man-made. There is no man to blame for these (well except Adam). And yet they're evil : natural evil. Should God be punished for that then ? Clearly not. And what about horrible people who hurt a lot of people in their life but before they die they genuinely repented and really changed their behaviour and God forgave them even though the people they previously hurt never had the chance to actually forgive them themselves ? Is God wrong in forgiving them ? I doubt it, otherwise who could be forgiven ? Jesus placed a great deal of importance on forgiveness maybe to make us understand that even these horrible people might be forgiven someday so we shouldn't be the ones to keep grudges waiting eagerly to see them get punished. And even if they do get eternally punished, we couldn't ourselves be eternally free and happy if we didn't forgive and forget about their offences against us. Universalism or not.
Thank you again for another excellent video. Always immaculately researched and presented, and you always communicate your view with sensitivity and humility.
I’ve mentioned before that I would call myself a Hopeful Universalist. My personal view is one that I believe some Eastern Catholics are sympathetic to; that Heaven, Purgatory and Hell are actually not places as we think of them, rather they are all experiences of the unveiled Presence of the Lord; for those people who die without any trace of sin (rare, but possible with some Saints), their immediate experience is unimaginable bliss and joy in His presence. Those of us who need to be purified will experience Him as the Fire that consumes all of our unusable dross - the state commonly called Purgatory. And finally the worst suffering will be for those who rejected Him in this life, and although outside of time as we know it, could be suffering in that state for a long time, hence Aionios referring to that period being open-ended, and depending on how those souls respond to God’s loving discipline, and whether they humble themselves and repent or persist in rejecting Christ. There is nowhere that God isn’t, but those who hold to ECT have to try to reconcile those passages where it mentions exclusion and the “outer darkness” with souls being tormented “in the Presence of the Lamb”.
If we think of the Presence of God as being the eternal consuming fire as purifying and restorative, and functioning as the fire that metal refiners use, I believe it’s much easier to reconcile these views. Thinking of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory as actual places has not helped to come to that conclusion. We have to remember that the Bible is a spiritual Book, it’s the Word of God and not just any other book, even though that’s how modern scholarship treats it. The Church Fathers didn’t read every passage literally, yet since the time of the Reformation, we have thought we know better than those who came before us. I really appreciate how you constantly refer to the Fathers; they surely knew a lot more than we do today - even though they didn’t always agree. But at least they presented their views with charity and humility - just like you are today 🙏
But I could well be wrong about all of this so when I pray for those who are possibly in Hell, I say “Lord, only You know what happens after death, and if this person can still be redeemed” but I pray for them and the souls in Purgatory because I’d rather find out I was praying unnecessarily, than find out I could have prayed for those souls but didn’t.
There is a Catholic Theologian named Jordan Daniel Wood who has some very interesting ideas regarding the Universalist view - he even reconciles an eternal Hell by questioning whether the “me” that goes to Hell forever is what St Paul calls the “old man” or who we were in Adam, and so all of that false me that is contrary to the me that God created me to be, my selfishness, pride, covetousness etc is the “me” that will be in Hell forever; it’s the dross like when refining metal, that gets disposed of, while the New Man, created in the Image of Christ, is the “me” that will go to Heaven eventually. With that in mind, we can think of Purgatory as the refining fire or process or state, that gets rid of all of that dross, and Hell as the place where it is disposed of once and for all.
One passage that made me think about this differently was the story of the labourers in the vineyard, where all of the workers are paid the same, even though some only worked for an hour at the end of the day. I could of course be interpreting this passage entirely incorrectly, but I can’t help but think of people who hold to Eternal Conscious Torment being like the workers who worked all day, and then complained when the Master paid the same wages to those who only worked for an hour.
Thanks for this! Great stuff!
As a Protestant, I’m only lately becoming more familiar with the idea of prayers for the dead. Obviously, it’s something the church has done from the beginning (Apocalypse of Peter) but I really appreciate the humility with which you practice it.
As you say, only the Lord knows exactly what happens after death.
I just read Nicholas of Cusa’s “Of Learned Ignorance,” and it really did make an impact on me. I can defend whatever claims I want but ultimately faith is first and foremost about following a perfect God, not about having a perfect understanding of what he will or will not do.
Thanks again!
So are you saying that punishment will have an ending... but the same word that is used for eternal life will not...
All I have to ask is which scripture says that there will be an ending to the punishment... And I have watched a few videos on this particular "idea" that punishment has an ending and that all creation will be reconciled...
The videos that I have watched I have heard the words that a man and his dogs will be together again... Which scripture says that animals will be resurrected... I have heard that people like Hitler and people that do bad things to children will be saved... Which scripture do you have to prove that...
Also are you saying that the devil and his demons will be reconciled...
Are you saying that dinosaurs will roam the Earth again...
What is the purpose of all this then... If everyone's going to be saved without having to show that they are loyal to God... What is the purpose of having faith... What is the purpose on God's part to allow the world to be in complete turmoil all this time... It seems like it's more cruel of God to do that than it is to punish extremely wicked people for eternity...
I have also heard on these videos that it was the early church leaders that created the teaching of hell to scare their congregants.... Do you not realize what you're saying... Jesus Christ use the exact same wording to describe someone being punished in torment by fire while the begger went to heaven.... So then I guess you're saying that Jesus Christ made up the idea of hell to scare the ones listening to him....
You guys fit the scripture...
2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
You're trying to suit your own passions... By claiming that God is not just if he punishes someone forever... But here's the thing... You do not know the mind of God... He knows what is right and what is wrong... Who is deserving of punishment forever and who was not... You are twisting the scriptures to tickle your own ears and you have accumulated teachers that never proved anything in scripture but only by their ideas that do not have one letter of scripture to back it up... Eternal punishment is hard for you to understand which is also for All humans... But it does not mean that you can change scripture to fit your idea...
2 Peter 3:16 ESV
As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Now on to the wording... "Will not inherit" God's Kingdom...
The wording says "will not"... How does that correspond into being punished for a little while and then being saved and entering God's Kingdom later down the road...
Galatians 5:19-21 ESV
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 ESV
For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
So basically you want your ears tickled... You have a amassed your teachers to tickle your ears and they've done a good job at it... And you're running with it all because the idea of eternal punishment hurts your feelings....
You ask a lot of legitimate questions. I have several videos and many of the concerns you mention are addressed.
I appreciate your commitment to the truth! If you’re open to checking out some of my other videos, you’ll find my answers to some of your questions explained in more detail than the comments section allows.
Thanks for the comment!
no am not a universalist only one way to heaven and that is by Christ through faith in him which is a gift of God. God will reconcile everything and everyone to himself
@2:25 Make whatever decision seems right to me? That leads to individualism, skepticism, and relativism does it not? That does not seem like something Jesus would say. It is not about personal preferences but the objective truth of the matter, right? Also, what do you think of the hermeneutical proximity approach?
I think we need to be careful not to treat scripture as if it were a theological textbook.
1 Timothy 4:10 - The New International Version (NIV)
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Cor 15:22
for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive
1 John 2:2
New International Version
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus came to reverse the removal of eternal life due to Adam, we now have access to eternal life for those in Christ who walk after the Spirit, we either perish or go to heaven forever.
Hey there, I had a question. If all sins can forgiven in the afterlife, why did Jesus say the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven?
Well, the thing to consider is whether a lack of forgiveness necessarily requires a never ending consequence. If a criminal is sentenced to a year in prison, if he serves the full term it would be accurate to say that he wasn’t forgiven. A lack of forgiveness only implies that a penalty must be experienced, it does not prove that that penalty must be endless.
All of creation is FROM God is OFF God. Alienation through ignorance and fear has set man on the path of the brokenness we see in all of history. God/Christ, embodied fully in Jesus on the cross, has conquered ALL sin and death... period!!! Where we fail in this life will be restored to what we unknowingly were all along. From God we came IN God all have imperfectly lived and in passing through death and refining (hell?) TO God we return. Nothing of what is ultimately ALL God is lost. APOKATASTASIS What Eastern Orthodoxy has always maintained since the beginning. Anathema to Biblical Fundamentalist interpretations which only reflects man's heart rather than the INFINITE Love grace and mercy of Father God's heart.❤
@20:14 It is primarily a quality but this quality will last forever and ever once one enters the afterlife, correct? I think I agree in one sense of the term. @35:04 Invincible ignorance: lack of knowledge about Christ and the Church not due to a deliberate choice or negligence, but rather a situation where you have no access to the truth or cannot understand the truth due to circumstances. God will judge us according to the light made available to us. Our God is merciful and just not some arbitrary celestial fatherless judge in a Calvinistic courtroom. We are adopted children within the household of faith (familial not merely judicial).
"To the age" or "of the age" is the most fair translation rather than everlasting or eternal. The context only means eternal when directly in reference to God. Since the "life of the age' is in reference to God, made clear numerous times elsewhere as union with Christ, His Life in us, Christ who lives not I, raised in Christ, putting on immortality makes clear it's everlasting.
However the correction/rehabilitation/punishment is not, so it not the same as the life of the age. They are not parallel in that way, only that there will be a separation. That's the central point and the nature of it (who are true followers vs those who aren't).
However there is a parallelism where I can agree with St Augustine. Both effects are permanent and everlasting. The life is everlastingly as is the punishment. Yet that only means the punishment's effect and purpose is eternal.
Remember Jude 1:7 Sodom and Gamorah suffered the punishment, or vengeance, of the "fire of the age" or "otherworldly fire" or "eternal fire" as it's often translated. Yet Sodom isn't still burning and wasn't when Jude wrote, nor back in the Torah. Rather the example is it's effect was permanent, the cities never arose again. At least for this age (which makes sense since Ezekiel 16:53 prophesies it's restoration).
Here the effect of the punishment, which remember as this video makes clear, the more correct or regular translation for the Greek word used would be "correction" or "rehabilitation", is permanent. Using the more regular rendering of it as rehabilitative correction it means the effect of this will be permanent and everlasting as life.
This becomes even more thr case when we remember Origen's point that Life and death are antithetical opposites. If Life is eternal, Death is not. This agrees with the promise that death, the last enemy, will be destroyed and be no more in 1 Corinthians.
Could just be that neither eternal life nor everlasting punishment has anything to do with what happens postmortem. Scripture says the wrath of God already abides on the wicked and those who believe have already passed from death to life. In fact "eternal life" is given to those SEEKING glory and honor and IMMORTALITY. 😇
I'm very open to the idea and would love to believe it, but what of all the passages that describe the fate of the unsaved as death and destruction and "they will be no more", "you will look for them and will not find them." Instead of the argument of an ECT vs Universalism, how do you argue against annihilationism?
”For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For whoever has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.“
Romans 6:5-11 NRSV
The OLD self is no more. The lost (literally destroyed) sheep is found. 🙏
@@calebhintz5374 So you are saying that the sinner dies a second time and what part of us is left that is in the image of God is reconciled to him?
@@KevinGeneFeldman I wouldn’t describe it as a “part” of us. We are all fully and completely image-bearers, but we can make choices that don’t reflect it.
@@KevinGeneFeldman the “destruction” is repentance, which is available due to God’s mercy.
@@KevinGeneFeldman
1 Corinthians 3:15
New International Version
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved-even though only as one escaping through the flames.
I'm in the middle of the video and maybe you address it later, but I've always found the argument that eternal doesn't mean an unending duration of time unsettling because that means Heaven may not last for an unending duration of time.
Thanks for watching!
Did the video answer any questions you had on this?
@@orthodoxuniversalist Yes it did, thank you! Sorry, I'm bad for commenting before hearing out the entire video lol
What about people who don't want to be with God?
Most I encounter get stuck on Matthew 25-46
Well, the only way for a time period to be truly undefined would be if it were infinite. Otherwise, it would at most be uncertain, but to claim that eternal life is uncertain in duration can be doubted in my opinion.
What about near universalism? The idea that virtually everyone is saved save those who blaspheme the holy ghost (presuming this is a very egregious sin like satanic pedophile child sacrifice or something)
Well done. A brilliant explanation. Thanks.
I've been exploring universal reconciliation/salvation for awhile now. I find it interesting that the translation on Bible Gateway of the KJV and my Holman Bible Publishers KJV that I bought about five years ago uses two different words. Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Beautifully said. Thank you for this teaching.
The doctrine of universal salvation (which I believe) has nothing to offer the human ego or false self. I think that is a big reason why many reject this doctrine. But I would like to know what it means that the Bible is not more clear, more unambiguous in its doctrines of salvation. It seems to me it would have been possible in scripture for there to be no ambiguity that all shall be saved.
This is a great question.
When it comes to the Old Testament, scripture is largely just silent. About the only mention we have that seems akin to the statements we have in the New Testament is Daniel 12:2.
But in the New Testament, while there is a great deal of ambiguity when it comes to the texts that supposedly prove the idea of unending torment, I honestly believe that there’s very little ambiguity when it comes to the texts that demonstrate that all will be saved (Colossians 2, Philippians 2, etc).
What are your thoughts on the texts that seem to prove universal salvation? Are there certain points that seem ambiguous?
@@orthodoxuniversalist John 3:36 says, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abides on him.” NOTICE it does NOT say, "He will EVENTUALLY see eternal life AFTER the Lake of Fire. Who do we believe God and His Word who says "He who does not Believe in the Son will NOT see life, or Universalists who say, "That's NOT TRUE. EVERYONE will be saved."
So, you simply do NOT believe John 3:36?
Im not sure if universalism is a hope.
It depends on the view of hell and strength of the human spirit.
Might the human mind be capable to refuse God even if he fully understands him as maximal great being?
Is hell more of a separation of God or active commanded torture?
If the human has that degree of freedom, then the only way to be a God of justice would be to not force humans in his presence.
If a complete understanding of the nature of God would necessarily lead to worship, then universalism seems to be the only way to keep Gods justice.
Since the New Testament seems ambiguous, I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to consider systematic theology as help.
Good video!
We require to be born again or baptised with the Spirit as John 3:5, as no man can go to heaven without the Spirit taking him, and only those sanctified are cleansed.
Agreed but when does God stop seeking the lost in order to bring us into this kingdom.
God original covenant with Himself was to 'Make Mankind (Adam) in His image'. I am fully convinced that through the Cross (death, burial, resurrection and ascension) God will achieve what was always in his mind to do.
Rom 11v32-36 Grace and Peace.
@@stephengorman1025 God does not actively seek as we find with the Prodigal Son, after repentance there can be restoration and forgiveness, but God us to set aside our vanity for his will by our free will.
Romans 11:25-26 is in the past, as Ephesians 2:11-22 since the Cross, outside the gate of the city, the new covenant is operating with spiritual Israel.
There are 2 prodigal sons and if you read to the end, we find the Father leaving the feast and sitting in outer darkness with the older son, pleading with him to enter the celebration. We are not told what happens but there is no indication that the Father ever gives up.
The Cross is not in the pas, present or future bur is eternal as Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world.
Believe the Gospel.
@@stephengorman1025 The Cross serves a purpose, it has a place in time and is not timeless, and you cannot attribute it to the Temple polity of atonement.
And of course I do follow the gospel, as Romans, Hebrews or John, that by repentance there can be forgiveness of sins.
@@simonskinner1450 did the woman caught in adulatory repent of her sins before Christ forgave her? did the men that put Jesus on the cross repent before Jesus asked God to forgive them? we are saved by a faith that isn't ours not by works we can boast about are we not? if you claim you have faith and repented of your sins is that not a work that you can boast about? Does the good shepherd not leave the 99 to find the one or does the shepherd wait for the one to come back when it's ready?
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. If we are all saved then why is there any need for fear?
The key is Daniel 12:2. Go further back, check the Septuagint. Ezekiel uses the same Greek as Matthew; Ezekiel 14:3, “Son of man, these men have conceived their devices in their hearts, and have set before their faces the Punishment of their Iniquities [kolasin tōn adikōn]: shall I indeed answer them?"
Babylon was the punishment of iniquity for ancient Israel, Rome in 70 AD for those who renounced the Christ. Jesus even said himself that it was the punishement that would fall on that generation (Matt 24).
This was an awesome presentation, well done!
Keeping it simple: eternal should have been translated 'eonian' - both in Hebrew in the OT and Greek in the NT.
The words 'eternal'' everlasting' and 'forever' NEVER APPEAR in th New Testament. They are mistranslations of the Greek words, 'eon or eonian'. The word EON pertains to a specific (generally a long) period of time, with both a beginning and an end.
I’ve been looking into apokatastasis deeply for some time now. Theres some excellent points those who affirm it make. Everything from the original language meanings, OT metaphors, philosophical and logical arguments etc. Here’s the thing. Imagine being wrong about this. Imagine the consequences. Why risk assuming otherwise?
Also it’s interesting that Polycarp who was a disciple of John who received direct revelation from God was a disciple of Christ, was taught unending fire and judgment presumably by John.
In Polycarps martyrdom he said:
Polycarp 11:2
Then he said to him again, 'I will cause thee to be consumed by fire, if thou despisest the wild beasts, unless thou repent.' But Polycarp said; 'Thou threatenest that fire which burneth for a season and after a little while is quenched: for thou art ignorant of the fire of the future judgment and eternal punishment, which is reserved for the ungodly. But why delayest thou? Come, do what thou wilt.'
This is someone who learned directly from John who learned directly from Christ and from revelation. How would he miss such a crucial detail?
Again is it worth the risk? I hope I’m wrong. I hope God is more merciful and loving than we could possibly fathom. I just can’t take Jesus warnings lightly and it seems foolish to ignore the majority belief of Christians for the majority of Christianity.
Thanks for the feedback!
Polycarp's confession is definitely sobering and I definitely don't want to gloss over it. But I think there are a few observations we can make about it. First, there's still a serious contrast in Polycarp's comparison between the quenchable fire and the eternal punishment without the need to necessarily assume that he means that the punishment to come is going to be never-ending and inescapable. The punishment that comes from God is, indeed, unquenchable and eternal, just as God himself is unquenchable and eternal. This means that it will remain constant in its force to achieve His end. Whereas, the temporal flames with which Polycarp was threatened burned only a little and were limited by the limits of Polycarp's mortality. They may very well be quenched and still not achieve their desired result - that he "repent" as was required of him.
Secondly, we can also observe that while scripture is inspired, this does not mean that everything that the apostles taught or did outside of scripture is inspired. I know this might seem sacrilegious to some but John himself said, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).
This is why it's critical, in my view, that scripture is given the primary authority in dictating what we believe. John, no doubt, taught many things. But the New Testament has been preserved for two millennia with such a high degree of consistency in its message that I find it hard to deny its authoritative inspiration. This can't be said of all the early texts that were considered scripture. The Apocalypse of Peter, for example, was considered scripture by the early church but was horribly corrupted in later centuries. It wasn't preserved like the other texts. So, John was an apostle, but John was also a self-proclaimed sinner - like the rest of us. Not everything he said or taught was perfect or correct, but I think we can trust in the writings that God has preserved for us within the canon of Scripture.
It's also notable that this same observation would apply even more so to Polycarp. While he was a disciple of John, that does not mean he agreed with John on everything or that he understood everything perfectly.
And lastly, it should be openly admitted by any honest universalist that universalism has probably never been the unanimous view of the church. Some have hoped for it from the very beginning (I'll be talking about this in my next video) but not everyone. As Christians, we have always agreed that the great fact of the future is that all things will one day be reconciled to God. But there has always been a range of opinion regarding what exactly this reconciliation will entail. Polycarp may well have meant exactly what you believe he meant when he made his comparison between the quenchable fire and the eternal punishment. Yet the fact remains that other admirable saints living in the second century would have disagreed with him on that idea. Honestly, I think it's okay for us to disagree on certain issues - and this is one of them. We can't disagree that all things will be reconciled to God but we can have friendly debates about how it will play out.
Eterne is Latin, translated from Greek aeon. Things can get lost in translation. And none of that tells us what Jesus actually said, which would have been in Aramaic.
I blasphemed the Holy Spirit and I really need universalism to be true
How do you know that?
I lost my soul
Universalism just seems logical to me.
Augustine hated greek he admitted I believe he really didn't understand it
Excellent work here.
After reading each and every comment, the one which was the most well grounded in scripture was that of @ojdavis6978. Good job, Mr. or Miss Davis whomever you are out there - we need to stick to scripture - Sola Scriptura, and nothing else. If we’re against Universalism, but it turns out to be true m, well praise be to Jesus and the all wise God. I absolutely do have a hard time of thinking that there will be infinite torture for finite sins, but I am not God. It is extremely hard to imagine myself at some point down the line of eternity holding hands with Stalin, Hitler and Pol pot singing Kumbaya.
Fiery furnaces REFINE
Anyone who thinks Jesus is literally telling people to cut their hands off yet has both hands, both eyes, their tongue is a big ole big hypocrite.
Jesus didn’t shed his blood for the devil and his angels nor the beast and the false prophet so I’m guessing the lake of fire will be quite permanent for them and whoever else’s name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life. I don’t think we have any idea of what the second death entails. Maybe it’s having to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the first ‘death and hades’.
Yes! Awesome!
Amen
If God has the power to create peace on earth then why God just wont do it ? We are tired of waiting and preaching. Everyday its the same cycle. For eyons. We are woke woke woke now. Stop playing with our emotions. You are God and the Devil pretending not to be. God created all things even Good and evil. #zeropoint
1. It is condemned heresy.
2. It contradicts the apocalypse of John.
Your interpretation
1. It was never condemned by any church counsel as heresy
2. No it doesn’t because the Lake of Fire doesn’t have to be understood as lasting eternally because of the nature of the Greek word aion.
You really should read and learn more about the doctrine before commenting on it. We know our stuff and we aren’t just pulling it out of our ear. We believe different from you BECAUSE of the Bible. Not in spite of it. We are used to defending it so You can’t just say anything based on an English translation and expect impunity. it’s really important to look into why other people believe this viewpoint rather than judging them hypocritically and saying “that’s just your interpretation”, while acting like you’re interpretation of St Johns revelation is flawless
How can blasphemy of the hs be unforgivable
Yea universalism is easily debunked. Especially since Christ already returned in AD 70. Oops.
Please explain? Ty
Preterism?
@@blue62show The parusia of Christ would be at the consummation of the age, and Paul identifies that the "consummations of the ages" had come upon THEM 2000 years ago. The destruction of the temple in AD 70 was the consummation of the Mosaic age of worship and the institution of the new covenantal system of worship.
This is the full reconciliation of God back to His creation, through Christ Jesus, to become TA PANTA - all these things back into all.
Universalism falls apart because there are only 2 proof texts that can be used to try and justify EVERYONE being saved and in both instances the word "mankind" is used in those verses.
What Paul is identifying is that salvation was not just FOR Israel - it was FOR all mankind I.E. even the nations. He is NOT saying that EVERYONE is saved NO MATTER WHAT.
Christ has returned, all of the Bible - every last jot and word and stroke of the pen - has been fulfilled.
@@testingprophecy This is an interesting idea. What's the name of it? Or which TH-cam videos/channels should I go to and learn more?
What about Philippians 2??