Universalism: Extra-biblical Witness
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Christian Universalism: Extra-biblical Witness
What did people believe about the afterlife in the New Testament World?
Did anyone in the first or second century believe in universalism?
What can we learn from the early Christian Apocalypses?
What did the Jews believe about hell?
The Apocalypse of Peter, The Apocalypse of Zephaniah, The Book of Enoch, The Ascension of Isaiah
Christian Universalism
Universalism
Universal Christianity
Universal Salvation
Universal Reconciliation
Hell
Heaven
Photo of Richard Baukham: en.wikipedia.o...
I’ve never heard Revelation 22 explained like that! This gives me comfort that my great grandfather who was a powerful Warlock can have his robes washed still even though my family thinks he’s condemned
This is my new favorite channel.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
@@theguyver4934Thanks for the kind intent of your words, but respectfully you’re very much incorrect. This isn’t a video as to whether or not hell exists, but rather what it is, and if it’s eternal. Not a slippery slope fallacy to justify your interpretation of Christian doctrine. Everything you just listed as being late misreadings is simply untrue, your rhetoric is no different than that of the many debunked failings of Dawah. Please, I implore you to do unbiased research into the topic. Mike Jones from InspiringPhilosophy is an excellent individual to listen to.
Yes
Revelation 5:13 is the final essential closure to the sin problem. After the sacred holy book of time is loosened from its seven seals by the Lamb, every creature in heaven, earth, and sea, are heard worshipping God and Jesus Christ. God's will and plan is reconciliation of every created being.
"Every creature in heaven, earth, and sea"
What about the creatures in hell?
@@raphaelepache5290Colossians1v15-20
@@raphaelepache5290Colossians1v15-20, Romans 11v32-36
This was an honest attempt to deal with the extra-biblical literature. Usually people try to wave it away since, no matter the position, some of it contradicts the speaker's position. You didn't do that. That is good.
I agree, the Apocalypse of Peter is very clearly a universalist text. I've seen people try to explain it away, but the text is clear enough to me the arguments seem special pleading, especially since the usual objection to universalism, "The dead cannot repent after death," is a central premise.
For I Enoch, it gets even sharper. The Book of Parables, which is the portion you quoted, is probably a later addition. The most difficult chapter is the discussion between Enoch and the fallen watchers. They ask him to petition for them, and Enoch returns not just with "You will have no peace" but that they must watch their children get slaughtered and destroyed before their punishment.
The center of this, chapter 15, is alluded to by the Lord explicitly as Scripture (I don't mean it should be added to the Bible), Mt 22.23ff. the Sadducees challenge Jesus with a scenario inspired by Tobit. Jesus chastises them for not knowing the Scriptures, in that people will be like the angels (Dan 12) and will neither marry nor be given in marriage. The point that angels do not marry is written only in I Enoch 15 (though it's assumed in many documents). Here Christ himself is alluding to a passage in which all hope is lost as inspired Scripture.
This is the single most difficult point, in that Jesus alludes to the passage as Scripture (we have no other candidates for angels not being married). We can ameliorate the force some with the caverns for the dead (I En 22) and that it differentiates angelic from human punishment (I En 21), but it leaves people damned to punishment.
I would include the Apocalypse of Esdras as another one, but it's specifically included in Slavonic, Protestant, and even older Roman Catholic apocrypha collections. So it isn't properly extra-biblical.
This was an honest attempt to grapple with the evidence, and I commend that. You didn't wave away that some of it blatantly contradicts your position. Most people do, because every position is found in the works some of it contradicts everybody.
Thank you for the great video.
Do write this up. I believe you could do an entire book on Ultimate Reconciliation.
God bless your work brother. You are very sharp and careful in your approach and argumentation. Hope you can keep up the frequency and quality so that, when the time is right, you can became a reference for the understanding of this beautiful doctrine that is in very need of many good sober voices to defend it.
Love your work
Thank you!
Amen
Once again a very good and fair presentation. Thanks.
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Imagine being in heaven and forced to watch the suffering of the vast majority of people who ever existed.
It's not just the case there is no evidence that the writings of these first century mystics is true, but we should be GLAD there is no evidence that they are true.
The Christian heaven is only slightly less hellish than the Christian hell.
People go to hell for a reason. And heaven is described as being a place of eternal felicity where evil does not exist anymore. How is that hellish?
You’re being a clown with this take. I’m 99% sure you understand neither the Christian concept of heaven, or concepts of hell (there are 3).
This was really interesting! Something I find interesting to contemplate is the restoring of relationships that might take place if the saints need to or are able to make requests for the damned it could be a means by which the hurt, abused, mistreated, murdered etc are able to be satisfied or moved to the point they're ready to invite in and live in harmony with the one that inflicted them with all manners of injustice in life. Just something to ponder
Thank you for approaching this topic with such deliberation. These are very weighty issues concerning the life to come, whether you have a Universalist Christcentric viewpoint or not. Faith in Christ and the Fathers goodness remains the dominant issue no matter how the data is parsed. Luke 12:32 "Fear not little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom." NIV. May the Father grant us all humility in such matters. ✌️
The concept of eternal conscious torment (ECT) was indeed around when Jesus was born and a number of the Jewish leaders believed in it. Mainly, these were the Pharisees. The issue is that they did not get this believe from the Holy OT scriptures. The Hebrew OT text makes no mention of eternal damnation at all. It seems to have come from Greek and Persian influences during the 400 years between the end of the OT and the birth of Jesus. (Jewish culture became quite Hellenized during this time period.)
If the OT scriptures make no mention of ECT, and it was already an established concept when Jesus was born, then it entered Jewish belief systems between the OT and Jesus. If that is the case, I don't see how the case can be made that the concept of ECT came from scripture or from Jesus. Moreover, when Jesus mentioned afterlife punishment in Matthew 25:46 in the original Greek NT text, He described it as "aionion kolasin". Properly translated, this means "age-during correction". Corrective punishment pertaining to an age. In their Greek writings, the Pharisees, who believed in ECT, described afterlife punishment as "eirgmos aidios" (eternal imprisonment) and "timorion adialeipton" (endless torment). Mainly due to common English Bible translations, many people believe that Jesus taught eternal torment. If that is the case, why would Jesus describe afterlife punishment as "aionion kolasin" in the original text and not "eirgmos aidios" or "timorion adialeipton" like the Pharisees did?
Great stuff! Thanks for sharing!
Likewise. I love your videos!@@orthodoxuniversalist
Whilst I agree that it important to understand why the various books of the bible were written and how they were received, it is even more important to focus on facts rather then beliefs. Whatever people of 3000 or 2000 years ago may have believed, the facts and the truth are always more important.
You are underrated on youtube.
True
I probably won't be able to listen to this for days, but I can look forward to it.
IMO, Revelation isn’t canonical. In fact, I have replaced Revelation with the Epistle of Barnabas and 1st Clement.
Exactly, your opinion. And that’s all it is.
@justchilling704
Ask me why.
@@christianuniversalistAlright fair enough ig, why?
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
You are not even remotely our brother. It’s laughable that a Muslim is telling Christians what is and isn’t in Christianity. Jesus Christ is God Almighty and He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one can come to the Father except through Him. I encourage you to find that out now rather than later. As for the Trinity, hell would freeze over before a human being would come up with that doctrine. Only God can reveal Himself, and He revealed Himself for Who He truly is, in a manner that no human could concoct, more proof that the Bible is accurate and does describe the Trinity. Repent now and accept Jesus as Savior, and then you would be our brother, and we would welcome that, for none of us would want hell for you.
And they gave him [Christ] a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them. Luke 24:42-43
When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire in place, with fish laid out on it, and bread. Jesus said to them, 'Bring some of the fish that you have just caught.' So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, 'Come and have breakfast.' Now none of the disciples dared ask him, 'Who are you?' They knew it was the Lord. Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish. John 21:9-13
Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, 'Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat it.' Luke 22:7-8
I could go on citing the scriptures that explicitly teach all the things that you mentioned. The concept of the Trinity, the Doctrine of Atonement, Original Sin, and Hell. And also, what early creed are you mentioning? If it's the Athanasian, Apostles and Nicene Creeds, they all affirm what you're denying.