It’s how casinos work and stay in business. These things are designed to snag and keep people prone to getting hooked on extrinsically motivating reward loops.
I truly don't understand why the casual playerbase is vilifying "elite pvp players". Like you said, casuals don't play against top players and honestly had very little exposure to them in CBMM. All they see are Flawless/Unbroken seals and assume that those players are top 5%. What they don't understand is that the vast majority of players in the "upper echelon" don't grasp concepts such as map control, team rotation, baiting and switching in engagements, etc. Most of the "top" 30 percent of players simply understand how to force special weapon engagements. In other words: 2 fusion rifle shots = 2kd. OHK weapon only players are very quickly dismantled in a high skill lobby. But casual players don't see those lobbies, because they aren't in them. Slap together a 4-6 stack of teabagging Omnioculus/LoW Hunters and Main Ingredient/Overshield Titans and casuals will think that those are high skill players. Now take that aforementioned stack and put them in a match against a 6 stack of you, Cammy, Sidezz, Drewsky, Gleauxx, and Namthre and what is the first thing they do? Back out of the match. Casual players in D2 don't understand the true measurement of skill because they are so infrequently exposed to it in game and because the game is inherently unsupportive of highly skilled players. Crappy connections, unbalanced metas, maps that encourage special weapon only engagements, etc all muddy the waters for an unfamiliar outsider looking in to truly see what separates a top player from a shitter. And, truth be told, this game is full of shitters.
Whenever i hear someone bring up flawless or unbroken as a merit of something im cringing ngl Outside of the timegate on unbroken its so free, you dont really have to do much yourself and legend is obtainable straight up with like 40% wr and is sbmm
I've played against Gernader and Cammy and their primary game is on point. There are also people out there that go beyond that skill level without a channel but are murderers. As a casual I want to get better and playing in lobbies at or above my skill level will only make me better or don't go in. That's me. I won't quit matches. If I'm overmatched ill stay in just trying to think of a strat that works. Quitters usually aren't low kd players they are usually control bullies farming kd elo etc. Bungie needs a comp only Playlist with actual eververse level rewards that you only get by winning. Imagine an emblem for going 60/75/90% wins of a week or month? An emblem for streaks of 25+ against other ranked players? Top 500 ranking in a strictly comp list. This way you have the clout without casual Joe's like me getting carried to the lighthouse or getting guns people claim to be op in a casual setting.
So basically learn to use meta shit. Not everything is about skill. I just want to have fun with whatever I want to play with. That’s why I never play trial or comp. But now control has become sweetie too. Can’t have fun in pvp anymore.
@@ASAM-ji3fh you either suffer by running what you or suffer by running meta if you dont like it bcs rn its boring as fuck There is no winning in this game
@@ASAM-ji3fh I'm still not using meta stuff because I like to have fun and don't care about kd stats. For me if I'm not having fun playing how I want to play then why play. When your team complains about you using a glaive but you know it better than a hand cannon which would you use?
Slide nerf, jump nerf, air accuracy nerf, 80% big maps in the rotation and on the way they keep destroying the core reason players play PvP: The fluid movement + gunplay + taking the best PvP guns out of the game.
The reason they put "loose" before skill based matchmaking was so that content creators don't instantly shoot it down. I would be willing to bet that's the only reason the word loose is involved. I feel your pain man, hope you're doing well and still enjoying some parts of the game. Edit: Came back to this hours later, just to hear you shell this one out. You're so based dawg, I fucking love it. 6:22
Hell, if we really stuck with SBMM, I'd really love to see slide nerfs, pellet spread nerfs and airborne ineffectiveness to be cancelled. At least that would make it more enjoyable.
It’s been pretty rough for me. Games more often go to time, because everyone plays their lives more. Also I hate that every game I have to sweat my balls off. I loved going into control with any of my casual buddies and running random weapons. Now I just punish myself for trying anything other than meta
Here's the thing, its quickplay not trials. You absolutely don't have to sweat and can use any loadout you want. So play it with the same mentality you had before sbmm. All that changes is instead of people possibly getting 30-40 defeats you're getting 15-20 instead in an absolutely meaningless game mode.
@@nd8490 I mean I see your point and I still will. I’m still not a fan of it though. Especially now they’ve added penalties for leaving games. I’ve got two kids, if they’re in bed and one starts crying am I supposed to just make them wait till my game is over? Now I play every sweaty match, and if I have to leave a match to help my kids I’m timed out… they just need to put sbmm for like the bottom 20% and let everyone else match.
Step 1: SBMM implemented to help weaker players feel better. Strong players are sad that there’s no social/casual playlist, competitive matchmaking in a non-competitive environment isn’t fun Step 2: Some sort of competitive mode is implemented with rewards for better players to feel like their skill is rewarded. This provides a reason for matches to be competitive Step 3: weaker players attempt to get these high end rewards, and get appropriately clapped because SBMM has been protecting them from playing good players, and they haven’t improved as much as they thought Step 4: weaker players complain that they can’t get all the things in the game and claim that skilled players are “gatekeeping” them, when really they just aren’t good enough yet, which is the whole point. Step 5: the competitive experience is dumbed down so that everyone can have all the rewards to once again make weaker players feel better. The value in those rewards is now removed because it takes little skill to achieve them. Step 6: Since there is no competitive outlet in the game anymore, SBMM is removed from the social playlist We are currently progressing from step 1 to step 2.
That doesn't really explain why the Lobby Balancing is so garbage in this game tho, we all just want to enjoy pvp , people can't have fun if its a mercy game or a 6 stack pub stomp or 2/ 1 high k/d player carries literal sandbags againts high k/d streamers/solo/6 stacks. If what i heard is true some people just abuse a bug that lets a low k/d player be a fire team leader then the rest are high k/d players but the leaders allows them to get into low bracket k/d games , which proves people just want to pub stomp regardless of any matchmaking.
I find that when I run a 3 stack in control it becomes more enjoyable for me to play consistently but when I go solo it really makes me focus on where i'm positioning and when I can actually go aggressive. I'm going to give this not so loose sbmm a couple more resets solo queueing to see how I really feel about it but I'm still going to instantly dip from Vostok, Disfunction, and maybe cathedral.
Thats crazy I feel the opposite for me, when im solo I feel way more pub stompy with 5 other randoms but when I pair up with 1 or 2 buddies it seems like the old crucible where its either even or we get destroyed
Sweats vs casuals is always issue, there should be a choice between a comp game mode SBMM and casual game mode non-SBMM. The team balance coding is always the hardest part for any PvP game especially with 6 or 3 stacks in games with randoms.
To react on your comment that people either play PvP for the pinnacles or because they like it and that's true. I have a friend who is a bad player, but he still enjoys the concept of PvP and just plays it. Right now with this "loose SBBM", lol, he says "im destroying lobbies now". Which for him I'm pretty happy now, because it made the game even more fun for him. In the beginning I really hated the concept of SBMM, because in a way we are being punished. Right now I do have mixed feelings about SBMM. At one point I do like it, because now I do have teammates that actually know how to play a game, but the down part is you don't have any room for new creative loadouts. I'm actually being forced to always play with what guarantees me that I will play a good game. Also sometimes you just want to play a casual game and not always have to sweat your ass off. The latter is what is important to me that's why I still think it's bullshit to put it into a casual game mode but oh well. But also in reality like you said, you can't become a better player if you're not playing against better players. That also still counts for me in SBMM. It's still nice to play against other really good players, because that way you can see and notice if you're either better or have to improve. But on the other hand for the average/below average players, they'll never or slowly improve at the game because they play the game against people of the same skills. Back in the days of CoD Modern Warfare 1 & 2 and some other older CoDs. If you got owned by a good player, all you thought about was "damn I want to be as good as this guy" and that's when you tried to start learning the game and become better at it. You'd start practicing and playing more. Right now the only thing I see people do is moan about it until they get it their way unfortunately..
My pvp experience drasticly declined , I went from 2.6 to 1.4 in two weeks, I constantly match the same people over and over again, the lag is crazy, constantly 4 stack, 5 stack farmin us ..the remaining 3 players , cuz the other three left the moment they saw 5 stack. Its preety bad now, allmost unplayable for me and im veterean player, and have like 8.000+ hours in PVP and PVE in D2 only. They should enroll a ranking system mode and if you wanna sweat for (flex loot, shader, emblem) cool, and make control playlist a freelance mode so US solo players can enjoy casual social PVP mode. I have no choice but to load in with my friends and stomp the otner team till some of them leave and im left with chasing the remaining players till they also leave. Bad such a bad experience. Shout out to LunaRz.
It's possible that the number of Pinnacle and bounties players has gotten to a worrying amount. With rumors of the power grind changing or going away, they may not have a reason to play Crucible anymore if that happens. Having a large chunk of the population just disappear would have a devastating effect on the playlist.
This is the part that those higher skilled players don't seem to understand or want to understand. Bungie didn't just wake up and make this change. DMG even alluded to how they were getting way more complaints compared to before turning on CBMM. For a healthy PvP future, Bungie has to give the casuals a reason to actually play PvP beyond the 3 pinnacle games per week. In fact, a big part of why they don't is because you have highly skilled players coming in each match and leaving with their 30, 40, or 50 dunks. This makes the experience for those same casuals pretty crap and they don't come back more than necessary. You make it fun for them and guess what? They stick around long enough to start "getting gud". At the end of the day, Destiny is NOT a PvP game and player engagement for the casual population is infinitely more important than the continued engagement of PvP focused players. Simply put, y'all don't matter. Bungie is not trying to make a competitive environment. They don't care about the population that constantly bitches about "balance" while pushing out meta builds and weapons at the same time. Yall are literally 10% of the player population while causing 90% of the frustrations for PvP department devs.
Middle of the bell curve player here yep matches are the same. CBMM SBMM doesn't matter much to me, which every matchmaking addresses these three things, outlier protection, better lobby balancing and connections.
Lunarz, thanks for telling it like it is. You always provide fair and level-headed commentary on pvp, I wish more people approached the game like you do. It really sucks that the most dedicated players, the ones who genuinely enjoy pvp, are the ones being pushed out and hated on simply for putting in the effort to get good. You deserve more subscribers.
@@ADUSN you only get to lunarz level by actively seeking more skilled opponents. He could probably stomp a lobby of top 1% players without much of a sweat, not because he stomps noobs in qp but because he does high level scrims and actively seeks to improve. The extrinsically motivated won't do that
@@ADUSN "Most normal human beings are enjoying Crucible more" I am not as good as Lunarz and I dont enjoy it. Show me the numbers that back up your claim and show me how many games they play on average, otherwise sit down and let people better and smarter than you discuss the topic
First and foremost; amazing technical skill. Watching you play neutral was a delight. Ideally i don't want sbmm here, but more than that i want the bulk of the player base to enjoy playing a game i love. If sbmm is a necessary evil to make that happen then im okay with it really, i just wish comp was way more fleshed out so i can have playlist thats fun for me. I also wish this game did something to help teach below average players how to actually play pvp more properly. Idk, im not smart enough to fix everything obviously but it just feels weird this game cant have a casual space and a competitive space. Pvp has always felt like its entirely one or the other
If I really have to eat shit for the greater good, fine, but when this comp rework takes place next season I dont want to hear casuals complaining about it to make it easy and the rewards meaningless(Like comp is now). Just allow me to live in the comp playlist if its actually hard and i wont ever touch the social playlists ever again outside of the occassional Iron Banner
@@2011manchu I was about to write a whole rant about your contradictions in the video, and I still might, but maybe my perception of your supposed contradictions stem from different definitions of what a casual player is in my eyes, vs your eyes. I consider myself a casual bad player, and with SBMM, I went from being in the bottom 4% of control, to bottom 24% of control. My kda went from 0.7 ish to 1.4. I see myself getting better. I jump into survival moderately and I can win more games now, where supposedly, SBMM is stronger than in Control. I WANT comp to be hard. But with stricter SBMM bands. I WANT there to be a rank close my emblem that says I'm level 10, or 12, or whatever it is out of 50, or whatever the maximum is. And then, I'll work to make that number go up. Not all casual bad players want it easy. I WANT ZERO rewards in that comp mode(sure, maybe a shader or some ornaments for armor. NO WEAPONS). I just want it to be SBMM heavy. Or if you prefer, since that seems to be a taboo word, a rank matchmaking heavy mode. If I'm rank 10, I only want to play against rank 8-12, until I'm rank 11. Then I would match against ranks 9-13. I want it to be hard. EDIT: And I'm 100% intrinsically motivated, not extrinsically motivated, as my opinion on loot and rewards on the comp reward should suggest.
@@casuallybad Sure not all casuals, but your demographic whether or not you want to accept it, is literally responsible for comp essentially being removed from the game. You can literally have a negative Win rate in survival and still get to 5500. Like with most things in the game, they made it about how much a player is willing to persevere through the garbage rather than it being skillful. Bungie has some fault as well since they locked best in slot weapons behind a skill gate most players couldn't realistically get through. I'm happy that your experience is better and it's even better than you are actually in pvp because you like it, but you are an anomaly. Bungie has catered crucible to people who aren't loyal to it at all.
I loved the fact that you touched on the fact that bungie is catering towards the people who pop into only 3 matches for the pinnacle and not the people who get 10+ resets per season.
I know this might come as a shock but those casual gamers who just come in for the pinnacles out number the hardcore PvP crowd by a metric fuck ton. You ever wonder why Bungie keeps throwing content to PvE while they leave PvP out to dry? The two year drought of new crucible maps suspiciously lines up with the implementation of CBMM. It didn’t have a big enough population so it wasn’t a priority. So whine all you want but if this increases the player numbers for crucible, and makes it more of a priority then all the better.
@@horrorfan117 Cap. This isn't accurate. PvP gets no content cuz they can't monetize it. Also check this. 500k casuals play hr a week. Thats 500k hrs spent populating PvP. 50k dedicated PvP players spend 20 hrs in PvP a week. Thats 1m hrs spent population PvP. Population is very important but player retention is also very important. Your not selling the whole picture here. Your cherry picking and pushing flase narratives. Theres benefits to getting more ppl in Crucible but if those players ain't gonna stick around and PvP is gonna lose dedicated players than its a net loss as Crucible will be less populated.
@@nicholasgrogan856 You mean a business would choose to give 500k players a better experience to try and make them repeat customers as opposed to the 50k who've already pretty much proven they can be abused for years and not quit? Man really fucking hard choice.
My experience with SBMM in a nutshell. Shoots player in a head with a sniper, takes 3 seconds to die. Players shooting through walls where you can clearly see the bullet print on the wall. Players rubber banding all over the place. Weapons some how one shots. Sometimes getting matched with players that have negative KD’s while I have well over positive. I’ve turned into a pvp main, and this experience has completely ruined the game for me ain’t gonna lie.
You brought it up in the video, but something I've noticed looking at the destiny community is that there's a massive attitude problem towards players better than pvp at them. If you're better, you get demonised as a sweat. If a change annoys you, it's a good change, because there's a pervasive 'us vs them' mentality. And that's not mentioning that you straight up don't get noticed when it comes to anything. The game isn't fun for me anymore? "Well the world doesn't revolve around you, buddy". The thought that better players want to play the game casually and don't derive fun from stomping bad players doesn't even seem to come up, and it's both hilarious and disheartening, certainly something I want to rant about some time. Some people can't just seem to accept that everyone who plays this game wants to enjoy it, regardless of skill level
In my honest opinion, I've really enjoyed SBMM so far. I'm definitely at the higher end of matchmaking (#243 in control as of writing), and I haven't experienced any connection issues or long queue times yet. However, the number of high level players explaining these same problems shows that I'm only an outlier and these are real problems in SBMM right now. I've only had problems with quitting players, and I now realize it could often be due to connection issues, as outlined in the video.
For me it’s almost unplayable. Every. Single. Game. I’ll start off strong and then get shotgunned by someone with 3-4 walls and a mile of separation. Lagging, rubber banding, damage not even registering. God I hate it. If the connection quality was good I’d hate it less. But I can’t even do control anymore.
the sandbox as it stands makes any above average skill 6v6 lobby feel almost unplayable. I love my beloved, my supremacy, my sunshot and my thorn, but all of them have been relegated to the vault because they're simply not designed in a way that lets them compete with all the NTTEs, 1 shot bodyshot arbalests, unflinching occluded finalitys etc that players of my level chose to abuse. if the sandbox was still constructed in a way that incentivised high paced, aggressive gunplay instead of the overwhelmingly passive meta we have now then SBMM would be a little less of a problem for me because I wouldn't be eating shit because I wasn't willing to sit invis in a lane the whole game
obviously sandbox is a different issue entirely but pre SBMM, control still felt quite loose and fast paced if your mechanics and gamesense were up to snuff. now every match feels like a 4-4 flawless game because everyone is running their full trials setups
When I get put into cheese abuser lobbies, I slap on my peacekeepers, equip osteo-striga along with my ikelos smg and play aggressive af. It’s a lot of fun to zoom around the maps and never having to worry about reloading. Plus, sometimes I’ll get a lucky multi kill with osteos poison effect
I'm a 1.5kd player and haven't touched pvp and don't think I will. connection is a big thing for me. I live in NA and play real late nights. connection has been getting worse ever season and I hear more people having problems this season.
You don't hear PvP players bitching and complaining about PvE content not being catered to us. Nor should we, since we're not PvE players. The only time I play PvE is when I feel the rare need to grind for a particular piece of gear, and it would be ridiculous for someone like me to expect Bungie to make changes to PvE content on my account
I’m an average/above average crucible player, I play all modes 6s, survival, and I make sure to go flawless every weekend. The only real difference I noticed in my control games is I can’t really get away with “experimental” load outs anymore. If I really want to win I gotta whip out the stuff I’m comfortable on in order to compete. And I do believe I’m getting higher quality games with less mercys on both sides, but we’ll see the season is still young.
I forgot to mention this in the video, but one of the few positives about this MM change is that i dont have to expect to deal with the brunt of team balancing since my lobbies are generally filled with solid players.
I’ve done a little over 80 games of control at this point. When solo, it’s balls to the wall sweat feast, however when playing with some average to below average players, the opponents actually got a lot easier, as if the game was still trying to balance out the total skill of the team. Curious to know if anyone else has seen this happen
Seems the game only considers the fire team leader's skill at this point. Let the lowest kd person invite the team and Q and you'll be in low skill lobbies. Why am I not even surprised given how little grasp the devs seem to have on either pvp or their own gaming engine these days.
If your fireteam leader in stack is 0.5 you will match and stomp every other player cuz you in 0.99 bracket of skill level. Thats why there are so many fake stacks. I matched streamers like Silence and Syncro, playin in 5 stack and the fireteam leader with blue gear on.
I don't like how the rest of the casual community is reacting to this change in casual control. I work hard as player to get better and at the start of this season I'm finally doing really good. I know for a fact that isn't because of SBMM but me showing the results of getting better. I actaully loved connection based control. I got to play against really good players and it made me want to improve get better, Now I'm dying to shotgunners and other goofy things. I have tremendous respect for our pvp content creators they personally helped me get better.
My experience from today's session in control: 8 out of 10 games are mercy rules (on either side). People quit left and right. There was more lag than before SBMM. Opponents felt much sweatier, which is ok but I felt restricted in my loadout choice (i.e. wanted to mess around with a sunshot/shotty loadout but the whole lobby would sit somewhere with a No Time) So yea. Not the most fun. 3/10 cinnamon stars for Bungo.
completely unrelated to the topic of the video lol but do you have advice on practicing peeking lanes and taking primary duels (accurately) while sliding out / sideways? you do it so immaculately in your gameplay, and I find it really difficult to be consistent or to practice it, particularly since the slide nerfs. It seems like most good players are practiced enough with their movement that they can slide completely sideways while aiming forward and shooting - I'm on controller so maybe that's the problem but I find making that 90 degree adjustment and acquiring my target really hard
Apologies that this is the thought that came to me while watching this lol - agree with your thoughts overall 100%, and I'm certainly nowhere near your skill bracket
@@SanjeevRau I would say it depends on the sensititivty you play and you will want to make sure your sprint turn scale is as high as possible. On MnK its alot easier since you can make a quick snap or microadjustment onto target if you overslide or something. But i guess my biggest tip is to try and pre-aim or take highly educated guesses on where your target might be when you slide, that why you dont have to work too hard on adjustments, otherwise you are just depending on flicks and thats an unreliable style of aiming.
@@2011manchu definitely agree about the sensitivity, I've recently lowered mine but increasing the sprint turn scale is a great new idea that I will try. Tbh, I hadn't even considered that I should be trying to pre aim or predict while making this sort of movement, but that totally makes sense as, yeah what always happens is I slide out and I'm facing the right way but I die due to the time it takes to make a huge adjustment. Really appreciate your tips!
@@SanjeevRau Not sure how much you lowered your sense but as a fellow controller player: you need pretty high sens and the turn scale all the way up to do these kind of slides. It's just the nature of the input method. Maybe try a lower ads scaler to compensate if you have trouble aiming at higher sens?
I went from 1KD to 2K in no time since SBMM. Why? I don't have unbrokens and flawless in my pool this season. What is the result? I am rocking with Ace of Spades and believe I am good for grinding people at my level when in reality I am still pretty trash at PvP. The only time I lose now are Mercy Stacks. Anyway, I am sorry for not having people to play with at your skill. Unfortunately mostly I see PVP as way to get my pinnacles and thats all, because all this is some illusion that I am better when I am not.
And people wonder why I quit, sitting in queues until getting timed out for SBMM, then when people complaining when teamwork and good gunplay would be what determined the match... I can't take anyone seriously who says "team shooter meta" like bruh... healing and buildcrafting has no part in the PvP ( apart from like rifts/supers/lumina etc ) And what happened to the other game modes? I thought supremacy was bad but at least supremacy was fun (ish) like let me play the game that I paid for... This video brought pack a nerve that was struck hard by Bungo's terrible decision making... When a first person shooter's main pvp focus isn't about gunplay or teamplay anymore you just need to stop and rethink your approach. ( I used to get so much unnecessary hate for saying this but ) compare destiny to any other similar game whether FPS/MMO and it's flaws are only more apparent... like forasken-era D2 had it's problems but at least it was fun-ish The nail in the coffin for me is vaulting, I'm not even gonna get started on it but considering that I can't even play the content that I payed $140 to preorder, then they turn around and resell it to me, it should be illegal
So far, my overall control experience hasn’t changed much - I can still hang quite well, but the connections are definitely worse then before. I hate every kind of SBMM in any social playlist - just do CBMM with outlier protection and you are solid. Nobody wants to constantly run a GM nightfall while in the vanguard ops playlist just because you are good enough to do that; it’s completely misrepresenting the idea behind what was once called „quickplay“. So I sat foot in comp for a bit, just to find that the Freelance matchmaking is random and weird AF. One game, you barely die and wipe the floor with the opponents, next time you barely get a kill. I started at couple of hundert points and matched people at 4K valor - what the hell? It’s nice to see, where you can improve though, so I gotta get in there more.
Comp goes purely off of skill and not points. It used to be an actual Ranked playlist and it was much better back then cuz u could actually see where u stood on the totem pole and it actually felt meaningful to move up in Rank. Now a days anyone can get to max Legend Rank. Its sad.
I'm like a top mid tier kinda pvp player seasonal kds usually around 1.60 or 1.70, currently sitting at 2.19/2.20 iv been having alot of fun and have had some friends that hate pvp actually enjoy it. But you do bring up a great point what they're doing will never translate from casual players wanting to go play trials because that's a whole different monster. I feel social and competitive need to be separate.
Me and my friends stopped playing pvp last season and destiny as a whole, on the belief that the sandbox was getting out of hand. Coming into this new season and trying to adjust to crucible to get back into the rhythm of things has just been awful. It’s beyond painful trying to acclimate to a game which tries to pull connections from anywhere because of sbmm. Being in Europe, connections were already pretty shoddy, but this was beyond tilting for my group and have abandoned ship until changes are made.
From what I read, the biggest complaint was 6 stacks and that 6 stacks pretty much stomped all over randoms so players got upset. Simple solution to that is 1.) get good. 2.) bungie make a matching option for fireteams so that fireteams vs fireteams could happen. That’s literally all they had to do
I don’t think get good is a real solution here reason being that if we assume each team has similar skill the one with a full team of people communicating is obviously gonna have the big advantage.
Below average players have this victim mindset that they refuse to resolve. It's ironic how they feel like the system oppresses them as Bungie pushes changes to make the below average experience easier. I can't tell if they lack more awareness in real life or in game
Actually I think higher level players have an entitled mindset where they think they are the only ones who matter and bad players are just scrubs who deserve to have a shitty time. Then they invent bullshit about poor players to justify this. Otherwise how can you justify a mode which ruins the game for the majority and drives away new players just so a small minority can stroke their egos without trying? Yes SBMM modes need some kind of ranking or reward system. But all you guys trash talking SBMM are basically crying about how bad it is having to face people on the same skill level as you without giving any thought to what it’s like playing far better players.
@@samspade983 Clearly you didn't watch the video if you think good players hate facing good players. The issue with SBMM is less about the system itself and more about the fact it exacerbates core issues within D2. You have the meta outliers, the stacks, the highly disliked map rotation, and the unstable connections/lack of dedicated servers. Sweats do scrims since they have more control over these factors. You don't get that when you load up Control. I don't mind playing people who can shoot back with a team who can also shoot back, I don't like facing laggy 6 stacks on Disjunction using Lorentz while my teammates are a bunch of uncoordinated solo players. But yeah guess we're entitled for complaining about these issues
The problem is that they want to feel like getting better should result in easier matches, which is a fine concept in theory, but falls apart in practice. The larger the skill gap between players is, the less there is to learn from both ends. A lot of the more vocal high-end players that like speaking out against SBMM just hit you with argument of "you're just bad, you just need to get better at the game", but I would love to see how much they learn from getting dropped into chess and losing a dozen games against Magnus Carlsen. And that's giving them a handicap, because chess is a turn-based strategy game. It's easy to trace your mistakes back in chess and understand why they were mistakes, but it won't train you to think 6-12 moves ahead like Carlsen is able to. And what would Carlsen learn from playing against someone who loses in 6 moves? Nothing. The ideal setting for any kind of improvement in a game like this is to challenge people that are just slightly better than you, so you can learn from their strategies and devise your own ways to counter them. SBMM creates more matches that fall under those circumstances, and yet it's hilarious to me to hear the vocal minority of high-end players shout "You should just get better at the game" while complaining that they now have to get better at the game. It's not like lower skill players are getting easier matches than higher skill players, they both have to play at their best in order to consistently win, so how anyone is being "punished", another common turn of phrase people are whinging about right now, for being better is beyond me.
@@liammiller299 i improved most when i got clapped by people well above my skill levels because it made me readjust my playstyle so i wasnt getting punished for stuff that works in casual lobbies
While i dont disagree, ive met some people that are just plain stupid, to play devils advocate here i dont think its entirely their fault. This games pvp can become insanely complex. From buildcrafting, positioning and awareness, and movement tech, theres alot to approach and the game does nothing to tell you whats what. And when the skill ceiling can go as high as it can, most of the time when these players load up and get rolled they dont even know where to begin disecting what theyve done wrong in a match. At the very least i feel mods should be more accessible, and maybe in the new light tutorial they could introduce some sort of buildcraft showcase? Atleast so maybe we dont run into the millionth loreley titan
Ive played over 150 games this season and tbh the only problem i see is the 6 stacks however, since matchmaking is pulling good people into my lobby, the 6 stacks arent as dominant as they would be, though a lot of people just leave the match without trying which is understandable. However, i dont know why bungie still hasnt done it, but they 100% should bring back the 4v4 control/clash/supremacy into the competitive playlist and actually just put cosmetic rewards. No redrix or not forgotten but shaders or cool emblems or something.
Amazing that people are crying because them and their friends came into control with blue weapons for the new light quest and got their asses handed to them. Yeah so did I. I’ve only been playing this game since earlier this year and I put in the work and now I’m a good player
Good now enjoy playing others that put in the work.. but a trend is starting to set that y'all that put in the work are now quiting against others that have put in the work.. seems like that kd for y'all was pretty inflated huh?.. let those blues play against blues you surely don't enjoy stomping new lights.. do you?..
@@RookieAllstar15 Those of you who are trash at pvp are not all new lights. Most of you are just trash because you’re trash. I can’t speak for everyone but when I put the game on, my first thought is not about stomping you trash players. My first thought is either go into comp or trials to really test myself or go into control to try some weird gun or armor that I know I’m not gonna do very well with because it isn’t good but I wanna use it for fun. I don’t have that anymore. Now everything is like comp or trials and I’m not always gonna want to go 100% and have to use the meta guns that I HAVE to use for comp/trials. Imagine playing COD with the same 2 guns every f*ing game. You’ll get bored quick. And there are games in trials where I get absolutely stomped. I don’t go complain to Bungie to make trials easier. I went there to play vs the best players. That’s how control might feel for you but, not being a dick, you just need to improve and that won’t be the case anymore. You have a choice there. As far as my kd, it hasn’t been affected by this change, again just speaking for myself, most of my games are good but every once in a while especially if my teammates quit I will only drop around 10-20 kills instead of my usual 30-40. Still I don’t understand all the backing out. I don’t have to back out because if some teammates do, the game will mercy so fast that it won’t make a difference anyway
Don’t forget that in last weeks twab bungie bragged on how high the pvp number were as if sbmm was causing better player populations when in reality a new season had just dropped and destiny also launched on epic games so of course there’s gonna be a higher player population
My experience has improved, I wouldn't say hugely, but significantly / noticeably. Yes, I am in that mid part of the curve I suppose (generally 1.1-1.2KD). I found so many things wrong with what you said that listing them out with explanation would make for a very long post, so I will not attempt it. I am just tired hearing this 2 weeks into a system after 3+ years of getting your way... just pointless to even try to explain
It's probably worth noting that 1.1-1.2 kd is above top 25% of players. Saying you are in the middle of the curve isn't accurate at all. The K/D curve is greatly skewed. 1.0 k/d isn't even in the middle. Also with SBMM, k/d isn't a good measure of skill now, because with SBMM in place, everyone should be closer to 1.0
@@OnionThyme So then you are saying that my experience is supposed to be actually worse, since I am not in the middle, but it is not, so I assume it's even better in the middle...
@@kombatres The higher up you get, the worse your experience will be. It's not just because you are going against better players. There are just much less players the higher you go up. Top 15% is around 1.25 k/d average. Your experience isn't that bad mostly because of how vast the disparity of k/d gets as you get into the higher skill brackets. Basically, the top 5-10% have an incredibly shitty experience due to low population and the mentality of players in that bracket, so that the bottom 90% can have a good experience. Also don't sell yourself short by saying that you're above average for having a 1.1 k/d. I'm one of those people who makes 1.0 average players go 0.5 every lobby I was in, in previous seasons so this probably sounds bad coming from me but just because a top tier player makes you look like a really weak player doesn't mean you are in the lower end of the bracket. 1.1 is still really good at the game, compared to most players.
I'm currently sitting at 1.9 combat efficiency and so far, my games havent felt *that* different from before. I'd still get matched with/against backyard-grown potatoes occasionally but i guess thats because its still early in the season
CBMM is the main reason I improved in this game, taking me from a .3 to a 3.3. I used to get stomped every match by aforementioned OHK crutches and genuine top 1 percent players, slowly improving every match looking at what I was doing analytically to improve. Going from one extreme of the skill spectrum to the other shows me the entire landscape of what different types of matchmaking does to players. People who do not put in the same work, blood, sweat and tears, like I did, do not deserve to not lose matches because a 'good player' is on the enemy team. Lose, learn and improve. Matches in my skill bracket are enjoyable once in a while if two conditions are met: map is something comparable to Javelin-4, and the connections are stable. The issue is that these matches are needles in a haystack, since the playerbase has moved either to rumble, and the good maps are all filtered out due to heavy weighting of Disjunction. To my dismay, I shouldn't be having these types of matches in quickplay as it is supposed to be a fun 6v6 mode to go into and relax, using wacky builds and such. This seasons SBMM shows the disdain and imminent laziness for the bottom 50 percent to improve, maps should not be weighted towards ones unfit for just one play style, and the lack of a true competitive environment. Matches this season in control where the teams are equally matched, and the score is within 3-10 points are incredibly fun, only I shouldn't play my heart out for a blue pulse rifle. Maybe it would be fun if the SBMM bracket was actually loosened like they originally said, so I don't have to match players on different continents.
I was the same from when I first picked up the game I hated loosing but play sports taught me that I did something to loose in the first place weather that’s not having the right tools to fixable mistakes I went from .7 ish player to when I try a consistent 2.5 seasonally for the past 4 or 5 seasons I remember being a 1.2 when Luna and not forgotten was a prize and instead saying that why make something that powerful to where the top 20% could get either I said I will get better and solo queue my way there so by the time I get it it’s my skill that got me that weapon no someone handing it to me and I got both over those next 5 season with mountain too and recluse along with dragging 2 friends of mine that one is the person to complain about why the best pve weapon is in comp but refuses to try and rather bounty farm to oblivion and one guy who needs a “Batman” for him to play at his best. So when Sbmm is brought up im fine with as long as I have good maps, connections, and zero premade fire-teams and I’ll be fine.
The issue is when your opponents are so good you get punished no matter what you do. How can you learn if you always die? What does that teach you? You need to be playing opponents who’ll punish bad plays but let you succeed with good plays. You need SBMM for that.
hence why the competitive playlist existed. Now the loot is terrible and it needs a rework BUT it's SBMM and you really aren't reworded for playing the "casual" playlists either loll. And lets be honest, if you're getting ran over by someone on the opposing team, its USUALLY one or two players with lobby balancing. Unless its a 6 stack of course.
@@branflakes496 I agree with your points but 6 stacks are prominent even before they implemented Sbmm back , it ruined the pvp experience for me who's always going solo also not everyone likes to go 3v3 , everyone wants that wild nature of Control/6v6 that's why its so populated and everyone just wants to play in that.
@@flan_blue8291 yea thats fine, but if your goal is to actually "improve" like you say. Im just pointing there is a place for that. If just the improving is enough "reward" for you.
i think that we as a community are really gonna see how SBMM negatively affects the climate of the game when trials/ib comes back. All of these 1% are couped up in tournaments lobbies, honing their craft, or avoiding it all together. But when trials comes around and these players who have delusions of grandeur from being in their loose SBMM lobbies are gonna get ran by these 1% players and they are gonna realize that they haven't improved or got worse. Then they are gonna wanna add SBMM to trials/ib. Truly a slippery slope. Also fix the damn map pools weight, PLEASE BUNGIE! These maps like Disjunction, Widow's, Eternity truly just encourage these cringe ass non confrontational play styles that make the game not fun.
Much worse tbh,if im not playing 100% and using my best loadouts im literally getting bullied which is wild,i cant try any new weapons,i cant use any off meta builds because overall every match i get in is full of the hardest meta/cheese in the whole game
Why can't you use off meta and just know you won't do as good that match I'm confused you don't always have to be in the top or win its just destiny after all
Getting good at games is a luxury I believe. Getting good at anything takes a lot of time and dedication, games don’t really provide any monetary benefit unless you are the top 0.001% going pro. Expecting people to improve for the sake of improvement is not reasoning you can just broadly apply. 95% of players are going to be extrinsically motivated and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
People would say staying in shape and working out is a luxury too. Gaming and physical fitness are obviously not the same thing, but if you want something you will find a way to get it. Luckily for anyone trying to improve in Destiny, you just need to be good at averaging a trade and you will be better than the average player. Players with the focus of improvement will use the little time they may have and play with intention. There are mad players with thousands of hours who spent all the time playing like zombies while a player witih intent spends even a quarter of that time and excells past the competition
honestly we are over thinking this at this point the solution is simple at loot to the high end pvp. at something meaningless in the larger scope of the game like shaders ornaments and a ritual weapon, a good weapon but not mountain top broken, something like nightfall weapons. add this changes to survival and problem solve. and let's be honest is not the hard to solve the issue let's just be real and except bungie just doesn't care enough for pvp period.
It's SOOOOO much worse. Every match is a lag fest and I don't think I've played a single match where either I'm the only one left of somebody on the opposite side is solo b4 it's over. And almost every game goes to time as a result of these things as well. I also can't put on a new build to try out or fun weapons/loadouts without feeling like a secear detriment to my team. I mean last season it constantly felt like I was required to carry my team if we were to win with regular games having me dropping 40+ and the 2nd place dropping maybe 10 with a 0.7 kda, but I those situations I could still have fun with crazy loadouts. Then I'd come across a 6 stack and have to sweat but I knew this wouldn't last and the game or 2 after I could use something wacky again if I wanted. This season it's all meta all the time or else we're getting mercied and I'm suddenly alone in the lobby. And what do I get for all this sweating, lagging and contact rotation of players leaving and joining my match......an ok smg and the same fusion I got 1 million times last season over and over again. I had a clanmate say the other day quickplay has felt the best it EVER has and he's never had more fun with it and me and my other clanmates in the chat immediately said you just told us with those words what skill level you play at lol. We already knew anyway, he's a new collage student who has little time to play that always complained last season about pvp and needed us to carry him when he wanted to get flawless. He also does this in pve, complaining about how "hard" the master challenges were and how long they were taking when he was the one causing the wipes dying no-stop and saying he wished the raid title was eaiser to get. He's a good kid though lol. But if he's the type of player who's loving sbmm and who Bungie is catering for we're in trouble. It's no coincidence this all happened the same day the game came to Epic. If all those Fortnight player's first experience with the game was getting pub stomped with some guy dropping 50 on their team game after game they would immediately be ran right back to Fortnight and may not buy those Fortnight skins Bungie worked so hard on and may instead buy Destiny skins in Fortnight and stomp Destiny players on Jav 4 in their game.
To me, most of my low skill friends have been enjoying pvp more as of late (I'm above average, not on Luna level yet lol.) Me however, I've been sticking to 3 because it's been better because I want to improve my skill set in this game, but maybe I shouldn't waste my time because the game isn't dedicated to that
It is a viscous cycle for me. I want to play PVP, and I don’t go in with PVE loadouts, or just for bounties. When I did, I would just become so tilted so fast from players sweating their asses off then punching down by Tbagging. The end result was always “nevermind PVP is not for me I guess.” Then I only do go back only for bounties, or not even. And I never improve because why would I do something g that stresses me out that is supposed to be fun. I’m sorry but I can not just choose to not be terrible in that environment. Git gud is not a very eloquent argument, and that essentially what you said. All that said, I feel for you and do think that they should loosen it up, because otherwise they will take it out again completely and cave to the vocal minority. I have inspected some of the people in my lobbies and it seems like they are all in the +/- 1.0 range, and I have actually been getting like 3-5 KDA games, probably because the game thinks I am as bad as my K/D would suggest. I suppose my that is my skill rating when getting stomped and tilted. I will be playing as much control as I can stand the shit rewards this season to either A. Prove you wrong, or B. Enjoy it while it lasts. I remember when CBMM was implemented in Beyond Light, Bungie said that it was because Control was meant feel “bombastic”. That was the day I started only going in for bounties and Iron Banner. It did not feel bombastic to me, it felt like I was being farmed. Now I Understand what they meant, because before I was always in the spawn screen when this bombastic moments were happening.
From what you’ve said, I think your issue was not necessarily that you didn’t want to get better, but that you didn’t really know how. Not that I’d personally recommend trying to get better while SBMM is present as you will only get punished for doing so, unless you want to farm trials rewards I guess. If SBMM does get turned off or you want to make some significant progress, despite the lack of incentive to really do so, I’d recommend doing 1v1s against players who are better than you, but still in the same realm so you are still able to fight back in order to improve your mechanical skill, and playing comp with a relatively consistent group to improve your team play, rotations and map knowledge
@@im44789 It's not so easy to find people to play with in PVP for me. I need a new clan I guess. LFGing for PVP is not something that I am comfortable doing, Destiny community being what it is.
No there is this thing called monetary gains. To all TH-camrs and Streamers they consider this as work. They don't want to be sweaty. (SBMM) when they work. Bottom line. SBMM is you working hard. Casuals try working hard to get good but we do it cause it's fun. Go to Work! Bungie deserves your money gamers if you enjoy the game not the streamer or TH-camrs. These streamers and TH-camrs are just riding the coat tails of your favorite game.
Experience is every match if I’m not using my normal go to load out I’m Not having fun. The heavy weighted maps like vostok disjunction and eternity are ridiculous. Currently I’m in the top 1.3 percent and I can feel it every day match.
To your comment about not being able to turn a pvp hater into a pvp lover, that’s me. I used to hate pvp but I got bored with pve and I’m competitive by nature. Over the last ~year I started to focus on my game going from a .5kda to a 1.7 this season. Nothing compared to someone like you but starting this late in fps pvp game when I’m nearing 40 is hard. Before sbmm it was so hard to gauge my skill because I would regularly match with and against top tier players and games were mostly one sided. Very few felt competitive and my mistakes were punished so harshly it was hard to see where I failed. With sbmm I can more easily tell whether a mistake was a reckless push or poor positioning or just wrong gun for the wrong engagement instead of getting sword skate shotgun sniped by wallah and wondering how the fuck am I supposed to counter that? All in all I think the ultimate goal is to get more people funneled upward so that the population of higher skilled players grow. My $.02 as an average player.
You sir are an anomaly, glad that your goals are more clear with the new matchmaking. I mentioned that I thought Bungie is taking a gamble on trying to turn non pvp players into pvp enthusiasts. Season is still young and I hope we get some hard data in the future to see if that gamble dice roll didnt turn up snake-eye
I will say i was the exact same, in forsaken i was complete dogshit (like .3 lmao) and hated pvp, but in the late days opulence season i started playing a shit ton qp and comp because i felt good getting better, sbmm does not help you get better by putting you against bad people, i got better with cbmm becuase everyone was way better than me i got better by adding to my playstyle, im not the best but im consistent 1.35kd (2.0-2.10kda)and my matches are mostly the same as everyone in sbmm: laggy, sweaty and people leaving (i once played a sweaty ass 3 on 4 against players from korea and japan :) )a little different from your opinion but i enjoy cbmm a lot more, thanks for reading my novel i hope i did not post this comment twice my internet is shit p.s i think i matched against lunarz one time
how do you regularly match top tier players? The whole point is that they are only like 1% of the playerbase, surely the players who you considered top tier were just crutching the op stuff of the season? but either ways big respect to u for gitting gud at the ripe old age of 40.
Bungie is going through the same issue 343 is going though. Catering to an audience that otherwise wouldn't play, instead of focusing on their core audience (the average player) and expanding onto the more bounty focused audience with QOL improvements instead. SBMM will only ever work in a "ranked" setting (not competitive since apparently wording is important to detractors) with DEDICATED SERVERS. Peer-to-peer has proven time and time again, that it's only led to laggier matches when sbmm is implemented. So instead of implementing sbmm, they should've focused on lobby balancing and matchmaking (especially in cases with stacks).
SBMM is an attempt to raise pvp participation before it dies out and leaves nothing left but a handful of dedicated top tier players. Once the ceiling has been raised, they can gradually loosen SBMM or completely dissolve it. What top tier players are experiencing today, is a future that bungie is trying avoid (rock bottom population pool)! Top tier players need to take one for the team just like casual pinnacle players have been doing for years, and let it play out!
If it means pvp overall will prosper, im willing to eat shit for the rest of time in 6v6. My only wish is that when the comp revamp takes place, I dont want casual players complaining to a point where its made easier.
Bungie can’t act like they want this game to be competitive with things like SBMM when they just have things in the game that are so much stronger than other options. For example the loadout no time + fusion lets you win every gun fight due to literally having the fastest TTK in the game short sidearms and smgs. And fusions defend against every rush so easily and literally counter primaries like smgs and even HC
Every game for me last season was a sweat match, I was mostly top 3 with teammates leaving. However now With sbmm I'm back to having casual matches and "top tier players" are having my experience from last season
I’m never playing Destiny again if Bungie believes their noobs that don’t even play the game as much let alone the crucible as much as the Veterans that have been there since the beginning(me D1 beta) and buy all the dlcs are more valuable. The point of crucible is to get good and have fun creating builds but not it’s sweat your ass off and use whatever is meta and still not top frag because thats not a thing anymore. They want the worse person in the match to be as good as the best person and this not even a competitive game. I’d be fine if it’s SBMM Iron banner only and not Control but if you’re new to the game and like SBMM maybe you should just get good but you have ruined it for all of us veterans. The point of the game is get good and perform better not get better and get punished even harder for doing so. I’m not dropping another dollar on this game until they remove SBMM and a lot of PVP veterans can say the same. We haven’t gotten any PvP maps in years except for Disjunction which is the worst map in the game because it’ll take you forever to get back in the action.
Honestly, I want to fight guys that have a similar skill to me, but it does not mean the game should give me the laggy environment. I don’t know how NA goes, but in Asia server, people teleporting and have no reg almost every single game, ant it is getting worst when you go solo against 4-6 stacks. I still can’t believe there is no freelance QP.
I have checked the “looseness” of the SBMM in my one and only crucible game this season so far (I know it’s a poor sample) and it’s doesn’t appear to be loose at all. I had the highest Combat Rating in the lobby at 177. There were 2 fireteams of 2 in this lobby so two of the outliers are likely a result of that. It is also clear from this and the prediction destiny tracker gives of this map that the game was weighted heavily against my team likely due to my CR rating being 8 higher than opposing teams highest. The opposing team consisted of: Player 1 - (potentially bugged on trials report so likely false) 89 Player 2 - 160 Player 3 - 134 Player 4 - 165 Player 5 - 102 Player 6 - 169 Players 7 (abandoned and replaced) - 162 My Team consisted of: Me - 177 rated Player 2 - 161 Player 3 - 146 Player 4 - 126 Player 5 (abandoned and not replaced) - 116 Player 6 (abandoned and not replaced) - 155 For anyones interest. Also one opposing player was teleporting and everyone clumped around the map team shooting with long range weapons.
I'm not sure when you did your singular match for testing but if it was before Bungie sent out the fix for PC players matching with Console players then sbmm was not active.
The problem is and always was connection, p2p connection in general is bad, so with sbmm now its got even worse, skill has nothing to do with it, top tier players cant do shit if they're playing against someone from another continent, so unless bungo changes connection type overall its shitfest in crucible then
and here I thought cbmm was a step in the right direction to mitigate the dog 💩 p2p connection that has always plagued this game. 1 step forward, 50 steps back. love to see the laggy ass burger king wifi warriors return from timbuktu 🙃 the reason why I never take this game seriously lol
I took a long brake Cus of circumstances but am consistently top 5-1% for trials and I solo a lot of quick play I come back to the game very excited to play and try out new stuff and just get rolled and then I have to sweat and now I’m just playing 6v6 comp now agents ppl so much better then I am Cus I took a break :( game sucks and trials is now casual -_-
Preach lol. Also people forget that some really good players play with friends that are terrible and it leads to just getting stomped to the point were you can't play together anymore at all because the friends who are bad just get ran over the whole night and have no fun. It segregates people from being able to casually play with friends who aren't good at PVP.
Hit the nail right on the head on this one. Of all the gaming communities I've been part of through the years i've never seen one demonize a section of community like destiny's does Its unbelievable imagine if pvp players made posts gloating about pve stuffed getting nerfed people would lose their fucking minds
I hate the argument about sweats just wanting to stomp bad players so much. I think non-pvp people assume that themselves or similar players are the intended target of said stomping. I can't fathom d2 players having fun farming absolute bots. For me there's zero enjoyment from an engagement with an opponent who isn't even close to killing me. The only "stomping" that's fun for me is against mid tier-high tier players. I don't get why someone would improve at pvp to be able to essentially farm recruit lv bots. If someone makes that argument they should at least phrase it "sweats just want to stomp players that would have been on par with them before they were sweats." P.S. pc/console mixed sbmm was 10x better for me than just console sbmm, way more primary gunfights and better overall matches, as soon as the matchmaking pools got fixed it was ass
There’s tons of videos from high profile streamers spawn killing people (especially point A spawns on those 2 shit Earth levels) - even this video shows some spawn killing at the very beginning. That’s intentional. Why would they do that if they didn’t enjoy it and/or know people want to see it? Part of the popularity of these players is watching them shit on casuals. It’s not for me, but I know it is for many.
@@EulogyfortheAngels If your point was that people like pub-stomping videos that's fair, but spawn killing isn't the same thing. A player could have a 3kd or a .5kd, if they spawn and someone is already beaming them they're not going to be able to do much. As for the player doing the spawn killing, their only choice is leave the target who might come back any second alive or finish the kill and find the next person. I see plenty of youtubers leave afk's alone during their gameplay because they want more kills/want to show better gameplay etc. but not everyone's the same and spawns are pretty bad in d2.
@@ohsoverytired5635 Lobby balancing is an issue for both parties either mercy games happen more often or that 1 or 2 high k/d players carry literal sandbags againts the mix pools of high k/d streamers/solo/ 6 stacks(which are prominent even before they changed matchmaking) , we all just want to enjoy pvp but with some of the said reasons we can't for both parties involved.
@@flan_blue8291 I 100% agree. I wish we had pure cbmm in qp with next to zero team-balancing. Sure people would get rolled over sometimes but they already do and at least each match would be different. I hate the idea that bungie wants to force close matches by any means.
I’ve just been playing rumble at the moment because Sbmm has made control ( as a solo player) a flawless trials game every game I cba it is what it is bungie won’t change it.
I’m not sweat but I’m fairly decent at the game. I’ve had 5 back to back shitty laggy games and one that booted me out of d2. I play from west coast us and there can’t possibly be that low of a player count. It should focus connection first and then do a much better job at lobby balancing. I don’t want to play against new lights or have them on my team. I’m fine with matching similar skill when I have a good connection.
If Bungie wants SBMM, they need to raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor. Otherwise, this ain’t fun. But Bungie does NOT want a hardcore PVP community. I truly believe Bungie thinks we are bad for the community as a whole.
Bungie does the same mistake every big game company does in the past which destroyed a lot of franchises: Thinking casuals are enough to make big money. But in the end the die hard fan keeps the game alive and in D2 PvP the core fanbase is bigger and more important to the overall game health then some casual check list PvE noob. They will learn how it‘s going down the same way like Gambit is going down the hill since a few seasons.
I've always been a proponent for connection-based matchmaking over skill-based in casual modes. Yeah, in ranked, obviously it's skill-based, it's the ranked mode. But in casual? Why? Nothing's on the line. Rewards aren't performance-based. Bounties are braindead easy. Unless you've got parkinsons or a hand injury, nothing in casual crucible should be beyond 95% of the playerbase. And wild, swingy games can be really fun. Sometimes you get stomped, sometimes you stomp. That's how it goes. At least it's my fault if I'm not doing better, rather than the p2p connection's fault.
So far I enjoy sbmm. Because my account was so fkn horrible in terms of kd since i was a bot that couldn't even jump backwards to dodge a shotgun on PS4 days and i went like 10-10 every game. So now that I returned after years and I'm vastly better AND have access to my preferred fov AND the special crutches are balanced now I'm just shit stomping 1.5kd lobbies as a decently good primary player since i essentially only die to teamshots or gimmicky stuff. On the other hand i don't get to dip my toes fighting higher kd players now so I'm probably gonna stagnate in terms of decision making and how to deal with hyper aggressive players. Eh whatever at least its fun when its not laggy, bots wanted sbmm so now they gotta deal with smurfs, reverse boosters and extra lag and they gonna quit anyway once they realise how obnoxious specials are if you dont know how to deal with them .
Good Video, definitely gotta Sub. SBMM was a really bad idea. trying to keep casual players while frustrating and making the game difficult for skilled players is a consequence of this. For games like Rift, Iron Banner, and Control, it should not base your skill off of your KD. it should be based off of you contribution to the games since those games are Heavy Objective Based Game Mode. Games like Rumble and Clash can be SBMM as they rely on "skills for kills". But I hate to see how I now only win 15% of my games and have lost 1 whole KD. 7 season previous I was constantly at a 50% win rate and my KD last season is now around 3. If bungie is gonna display our performance, I would rather have them not interfere just because they want to protect casual players.
I'm getting close matches a fair bit that actually feel like close matches instead of 1 guy carrying us and the blowouts actually being possible to come back from, so long as people stop leaving, I'm having to try and I'm actually finally learning how to play pvp better. I see people complain about how every high end match is a sweatfest but jesus the previous seasons they were a bore because there was always no way to properly even play. I hope they can figure out the connection issues and somehow deal with lower pop pools for higher level but sbmm is miles better and I hope the people who were tired of how shitty pvp was come and try it out and see how much better it is now.
I personally like getting punished on what type of play I did cause then it tells me how to adapt and gives me knowledge of oh we can do that so why not this
As a player who has actively tried to improve in PvP it seems to me that the harder the games against better players has improved my game no end…..if I’m now only matching against my skill level….I’ll improve but at a much slower rate….one of the best experience’s I’ve had in PvP was matching against Merculies …now things like that will never happen …plus the connections are awful….unlike IB this week where’s there were hardly any connection issues ….
I’d say I’m a mid skilled player and skill based is terrible, I constantly get slingshotted up and down, either I’m forced to carry a team of negatives with one guy having a similar kd but no zone caps, or I fight people out of my league and have a terrible time either way
I've always been around a 2.3 but I feel like that's my limit I've sunk a lot of hours in, I just don't think I have the hand eye co-ordination to get to a 3KD. That being said, people have their limits, but it's also correct that playing other mediocre players will not make you improve or learn better habits. I remember when they turned it off last time, I felt like I had just stepped out ther byperbaulic time chamber lol.
i agree with your take on improving. i use to get stomped but i really liked pvp. if i were to play people just as new or as bad as me i would improve at a much slower rate because then everybody will be making the same mistakes as me and would be less likely to punish me for mine as often. if anything playing with some of my friends that were average to pretty good exposed me to a lot of the mistakes i was making that i would often get away with in quickplay helping improve even more. i also feel like placebo plays a part in some people thinking they’re improving now, i saw 1 guy posting his seasonal KDA emblem talking about how much he’s improved but when you look him up on destiny tracker he only went up .1 kd from the previous season with less than a couple 100 kills this season. also showed that he was already improving at a steady rate from season to season b4 they even added sbmm if he wanted to go strictly off KD or KDA
First off I absolutely agree I'm quiting pre-lightfall grappling hooks is enough and it's gonna ruin my mood alr. But more onto what was discussed. I hate how in 97% of the games I get into is people sitting back of the map throne world - and or lasering from afar the "skill" nowadays feels like everyone is hiding and movement isn't allowed and is heavily punished each lobby i play on in control is six V six stacks as a solo pvp player it's hard to find matches where it feels anything like balanced so far it's felt pretyy skewered. Pulse's & Scouts are the only things I see in any form of pvp (as a console player). I run Shayura's Wrath & Eye of Sol (adept) for context. So sniping from me had drastically increased and one of the only things I end up getting to play with. Very rarely do I use Shayura's. But that's because that is every 6 stack I run into is doing this pulse and scout and sit back method so far. So I actually hate 6v6 - not saying by any means I am any form of good. But - playing 3v3 gives me a chance. At the very least to try and expect different gameplay and if they aren't using the warlock slide melee is punishment and can entirely one shot a team if they are all together. ARC IS MY FAVORITE SUBCLASS ATM. I feel like as for everything else it was summed up to basically my exact thoughts. I try my best to Solo play PVP. And it's hard but- I have fun, I weep , I still try I'm not some God.
I made a forum post about how SBMM was worse than better for the game, and wish I could have showed some of the trolls this. You make incredible solid points in a respectable mature manner. Gotta respect it.
SBMM won’t solve anything. The reason casuals get turned off about PVP is because PVP as a whole is lackluster and void of any content. There’s no frequent map releases, there’s not an abundance of modes (fun and sweaty) to play, theres no worthwhile rewards and most of all, there’s no ACTUAL competitive mode. Trials and the “competitive” aren’t competitive, it’s just 3’s. It may FEEL sweaty or hard, not because it’s competitive, but because people want things, that’s it. If they want to improve the PVP experience, they need to add an actual competitive mode first with rankings. I’m talking fixed load outs and fixed abilities on each team.
I agree with every single thing you said in this video. Personally, I don't mind fighting plays of my skill and find the added challenge to be rlly fun. What I don't enjoy is fighting players on the other side of the planet and having them kill me across the map as well as large maps like Cathedral of Dusk being heavily weighed into matches. I don't wanna spend 1 whole minute running from one side of the map to the other to maybe get in a gunfight. The AE thing theres nothing we can rlly do to change since it looks like its here to stay but I would heavily appreciate it if they removed the sliding nerf for all weapons since I'm now fighting players of equal skill so it shouldn't be "oppressive" to play against. Finally, although I think it's a good thing to get input from the casual pvp players (since they have different perspectives that differ from a hardcore pvp player), I hate when they try to invalidate your constructive critizisms/opinions on pvp simply out of spite that you're a better player or a "sweat". Those same people who do that weird crap are the same ones that try to preach positivity in the community which I just think is pretty hypocritical.
It has definitely gotten sweatier for sure I load into control now and everyone on my team is 1.5 or higher and same for the other team I’m assuming, it’s pretty rare these days for me to see 30+ kills in a lobby and my overall KD is like 1.4 or something like that and I feel like even I deal with the same connection problems over seas people there’s still a problem with connection from Xbox to PlayStation and vice Versa I don’t hate the changes I don’t mind playing people at my skill and higher but I’ve seen people one the lower end complain more recently than they have been bc their games are consistently sweatier as well bc the thing they don’t realize is if you are a .8 it makes no difference if a .95 or a 1.0 beats you as opposed to someone 2.0+ it’s still gonna be sweaty
It’s how casinos work and stay in business. These things are designed to snag and keep people prone to getting hooked on extrinsically motivating reward loops.
Well said
Two things needed for SBMM to work properly. Lobby balancing that actually works, and individual performance based rewards.
I truly don't understand why the casual playerbase is vilifying "elite pvp players". Like you said, casuals don't play against top players and honestly had very little exposure to them in CBMM. All they see are Flawless/Unbroken seals and assume that those players are top 5%.
What they don't understand is that the vast majority of players in the "upper echelon" don't grasp concepts such as map control, team rotation, baiting and switching in engagements, etc. Most of the "top" 30 percent of players simply understand how to force special weapon engagements. In other words: 2 fusion rifle shots = 2kd.
OHK weapon only players are very quickly dismantled in a high skill lobby. But casual players don't see those lobbies, because they aren't in them. Slap together a 4-6 stack of teabagging Omnioculus/LoW Hunters and Main Ingredient/Overshield Titans and casuals will think that those are high skill players. Now take that aforementioned stack and put them in a match against a 6 stack of you, Cammy, Sidezz, Drewsky, Gleauxx, and Namthre and what is the first thing they do? Back out of the match.
Casual players in D2 don't understand the true measurement of skill because they are so infrequently exposed to it in game and because the game is inherently unsupportive of highly skilled players. Crappy connections, unbalanced metas, maps that encourage special weapon only engagements, etc all muddy the waters for an unfamiliar outsider looking in to truly see what separates a top player from a shitter. And, truth be told, this game is full of shitters.
Whenever i hear someone bring up flawless or unbroken as a merit of something im cringing ngl
Outside of the timegate on unbroken its so free, you dont really have to do much yourself and legend is obtainable straight up with like 40% wr and is sbmm
I've played against Gernader and Cammy and their primary game is on point. There are also people out there that go beyond that skill level without a channel but are murderers.
As a casual I want to get better and playing in lobbies at or above my skill level will only make me better or don't go in. That's me. I won't quit matches. If I'm overmatched ill stay in just trying to think of a strat that works. Quitters usually aren't low kd players they are usually control bullies farming kd elo etc.
Bungie needs a comp only Playlist with actual eververse level rewards that you only get by winning. Imagine an emblem for going 60/75/90% wins of a week or month? An emblem for streaks of 25+ against other ranked players? Top 500 ranking in a strictly comp list. This way you have the clout without casual Joe's like me getting carried to the lighthouse or getting guns people claim to be op in a casual setting.
So basically learn to use meta shit. Not everything is about skill. I just want to have fun with whatever I want to play with. That’s why I never play trial or comp. But now control has become sweetie too. Can’t have fun in pvp anymore.
@@ASAM-ji3fh you either suffer by running what you or suffer by running meta if you dont like it bcs rn its boring as fuck
There is no winning in this game
@@ASAM-ji3fh I'm still not using meta stuff because I like to have fun and don't care about kd stats. For me if I'm not having fun playing how I want to play then why play. When your team complains about you using a glaive but you know it better than a hand cannon which would you use?
Pvp has been going downhill rapidly since that first slide nerf. Idk how we went from a fun fast paced casual shooter to whatever the fuck it is now
its still fast paced but if you do anything other than wasd you get shafted with a ridiculous amout of stat penalties for.... moving???
Slide nerf, jump nerf, air accuracy nerf, 80% big maps in the rotation and on the way they keep destroying the core reason players play PvP: The fluid movement + gunplay + taking the best PvP guns out of the game.
They wanted more "Gun focused gameplay" but we have fragments and aspects that basically make our abilities so rampant and annoying.
@@jappajotahs8703 they didn’t fix shit and they never will. Fucking awful woke ass company
"You can choose not to be terrible". Now there's a statement.
Wish I would’ve thought of that before now.
The reason they put "loose" before skill based matchmaking was so that content creators don't instantly shoot it down. I would be willing to bet that's the only reason the word loose is involved. I feel your pain man, hope you're doing well and still enjoying some parts of the game.
Edit: Came back to this hours later, just to hear you shell this one out. You're so based dawg, I fucking love it. 6:22
"I don't have to eat shit to know it tastes bad" fucking killed me ahahaha
Hell, if we really stuck with SBMM, I'd really love to see slide nerfs, pellet spread nerfs and airborne ineffectiveness to be cancelled. At least that would make it more enjoyable.
It’s been pretty rough for me. Games more often go to time, because everyone plays their lives more. Also I hate that every game I have to sweat my balls off. I loved going into control with any of my casual buddies and running random weapons. Now I just punish myself for trying anything other than meta
Here's the thing, its quickplay not trials. You absolutely don't have to sweat and can use any loadout you want. So play it with the same mentality you had before sbmm. All that changes is instead of people possibly getting 30-40 defeats you're getting 15-20 instead in an absolutely meaningless game mode.
@@nd8490 I mean I see your point and I still will. I’m still not a fan of it though. Especially now they’ve added penalties for leaving games. I’ve got two kids, if they’re in bed and one starts crying am I supposed to just make them wait till my game is over? Now I play every sweaty match, and if I have to leave a match to help my kids I’m timed out… they just need to put sbmm for like the bottom 20% and let everyone else match.
Step 1: SBMM implemented to help weaker players feel better. Strong players are sad that there’s no social/casual playlist, competitive matchmaking in a non-competitive environment isn’t fun
Step 2: Some sort of competitive mode is implemented with rewards for better players to feel like their skill is rewarded. This provides a reason for matches to be competitive
Step 3: weaker players attempt to get these high end rewards, and get appropriately clapped because SBMM has been protecting them from playing good players, and they haven’t improved as much as they thought
Step 4: weaker players complain that they can’t get all the things in the game and claim that skilled players are “gatekeeping” them, when really they just aren’t good enough yet, which is the whole point.
Step 5: the competitive experience is dumbed down so that everyone can have all the rewards to once again make weaker players feel better. The value in those rewards is now removed because it takes little skill to achieve them.
Step 6: Since there is no competitive outlet in the game anymore, SBMM is removed from the social playlist
We are currently progressing from step 1 to step 2.
atleast i get to experience step 2 and 3 for a while :)
That doesn't really explain why the Lobby Balancing is so garbage in this game tho, we all just want to enjoy pvp , people can't have fun if its a mercy game or a 6 stack pub stomp or 2/ 1 high k/d player carries literal sandbags againts high k/d streamers/solo/6 stacks. If what i heard is true some people just abuse a bug that lets a low k/d player be a fire team leader then the rest are high k/d players but the leaders allows them to get into low bracket k/d games , which proves people just want to pub stomp regardless of any matchmaking.
I find that when I run a 3 stack in control it becomes more enjoyable for me to play consistently but when I go solo it really makes me focus on where i'm positioning and when I can actually go aggressive. I'm going to give this not so loose sbmm a couple more resets solo queueing to see how I really feel about it but I'm still going to instantly dip from Vostok, Disfunction, and maybe cathedral.
Thats crazy I feel the opposite for me, when im solo I feel way more pub stompy with 5 other randoms but when I pair up with 1 or 2 buddies it seems like the old crucible where its either even or we get destroyed
Sweats vs casuals is always issue, there should be a choice between a comp game mode SBMM and casual game mode non-SBMM. The team balance coding is always the hardest part for any PvP game especially with 6 or 3 stacks in games with randoms.
To react on your comment that people either play PvP for the pinnacles or because they like it and that's true. I have a friend who is a bad player, but he still enjoys the concept of PvP and just plays it. Right now with this "loose SBBM", lol, he says "im destroying lobbies now". Which for him I'm pretty happy now, because it made the game even more fun for him.
In the beginning I really hated the concept of SBMM, because in a way we are being punished. Right now I do have mixed feelings about SBMM. At one point I do like it, because now I do have teammates that actually know how to play a game, but the down part is you don't have any room for new creative loadouts. I'm actually being forced to always play with what guarantees me that I will play a good game. Also sometimes you just want to play a casual game and not always have to sweat your ass off. The latter is what is important to me that's why I still think it's bullshit to put it into a casual game mode but oh well.
But also in reality like you said, you can't become a better player if you're not playing against better players. That also still counts for me in SBMM. It's still nice to play against other really good players, because that way you can see and notice if you're either better or have to improve. But on the other hand for the average/below average players, they'll never or slowly improve at the game because they play the game against people of the same skills.
Back in the days of CoD Modern Warfare 1 & 2 and some other older CoDs. If you got owned by a good player, all you thought about was "damn I want to be as good as this guy" and that's when you tried to start learning the game and become better at it. You'd start practicing and playing more. Right now the only thing I see people do is moan about it until they get it their way unfortunately..
My pvp experience drasticly declined , I went from 2.6 to 1.4 in two weeks, I constantly match the same people over and over again, the lag is crazy, constantly 4 stack, 5 stack farmin us ..the remaining 3 players , cuz the other three left the moment they saw 5 stack. Its preety bad now, allmost unplayable for me and im veterean player, and have like 8.000+ hours in PVP and PVE in D2 only. They should enroll a ranking system mode and if you wanna sweat for (flex loot, shader, emblem) cool, and make control playlist a freelance mode so US solo players can enjoy casual social PVP mode. I have no choice but to load in with my friends and stomp the otner team till some of them leave and im left with chasing the remaining players till they also leave. Bad such a bad experience. Shout out to LunaRz.
It's possible that the number of Pinnacle and bounties players has gotten to a worrying amount. With rumors of the power grind changing or going away, they may not have a reason to play Crucible anymore if that happens. Having a large chunk of the population just disappear would have a devastating effect on the playlist.
This is the part that those higher skilled players don't seem to understand or want to understand. Bungie didn't just wake up and make this change. DMG even alluded to how they were getting way more complaints compared to before turning on CBMM. For a healthy PvP future, Bungie has to give the casuals a reason to actually play PvP beyond the 3 pinnacle games per week. In fact, a big part of why they don't is because you have highly skilled players coming in each match and leaving with their 30, 40, or 50 dunks. This makes the experience for those same casuals pretty crap and they don't come back more than necessary. You make it fun for them and guess what? They stick around long enough to start "getting gud".
At the end of the day, Destiny is NOT a PvP game and player engagement for the casual population is infinitely more important than the continued engagement of PvP focused players. Simply put, y'all don't matter. Bungie is not trying to make a competitive environment. They don't care about the population that constantly bitches about "balance" while pushing out meta builds and weapons at the same time. Yall are literally 10% of the player population while causing 90% of the frustrations for PvP department devs.
Middle of the bell curve player here yep matches are the same. CBMM SBMM doesn't matter much to me, which every matchmaking addresses these three things, outlier protection, better lobby balancing and connections.
"you can't turn a pve player into a pvp player"
Guess I defy all odds
Lunarz, thanks for telling it like it is. You always provide fair and level-headed commentary on pvp, I wish more people approached the game like you do. It really sucks that the most dedicated players, the ones who genuinely enjoy pvp, are the ones being pushed out and hated on simply for putting in the effort to get good. You deserve more subscribers.
@@ADUSN you only get to lunarz level by actively seeking more skilled opponents. He could probably stomp a lobby of top 1% players without much of a sweat, not because he stomps noobs in qp but because he does high level scrims and actively seeks to improve. The extrinsically motivated won't do that
@@ADUSN Like lunarz said, being dogshit at the game is a choice, clearly it was the right one for you
@@ADUSN "Most normal human beings are enjoying Crucible more" I am not as good as Lunarz and I dont enjoy it. Show me the numbers that back up your claim and show me how many games they play on average, otherwise sit down and let people better and smarter than you discuss the topic
The amount of times I have played disfunction, cathedral, Vostok and eternity in a row is stupid
First and foremost; amazing technical skill. Watching you play neutral was a delight. Ideally i don't want sbmm here, but more than that i want the bulk of the player base to enjoy playing a game i love. If sbmm is a necessary evil to make that happen then im okay with it really, i just wish comp was way more fleshed out so i can have playlist thats fun for me. I also wish this game did something to help teach below average players how to actually play pvp more properly. Idk, im not smart enough to fix everything obviously but it just feels weird this game cant have a casual space and a competitive space. Pvp has always felt like its entirely one or the other
If I really have to eat shit for the greater good, fine, but when this comp rework takes place next season I dont want to hear casuals complaining about it to make it easy and the rewards meaningless(Like comp is now). Just allow me to live in the comp playlist if its actually hard and i wont ever touch the social playlists ever again outside of the occassional Iron Banner
@@2011manchu i completely agree, ESPECIALLY since sbmm will protect them from players skilled enough to earn the competitive loot
@@2011manchu I was about to write a whole rant about your contradictions in the video, and I still might, but maybe my perception of your supposed contradictions stem from different definitions of what a casual player is in my eyes, vs your eyes. I consider myself a casual bad player, and with SBMM, I went from being in the bottom 4% of control, to bottom 24% of control. My kda went from 0.7 ish to 1.4. I see myself getting better. I jump into survival moderately and I can win more games now, where supposedly, SBMM is stronger than in Control. I WANT comp to be hard. But with stricter SBMM bands. I WANT there to be a rank close my emblem that says I'm level 10, or 12, or whatever it is out of 50, or whatever the maximum is. And then, I'll work to make that number go up. Not all casual bad players want it easy. I WANT ZERO rewards in that comp mode(sure, maybe a shader or some ornaments for armor. NO WEAPONS). I just want it to be SBMM heavy. Or if you prefer, since that seems to be a taboo word, a rank matchmaking heavy mode. If I'm rank 10, I only want to play against rank 8-12, until I'm rank 11. Then I would match against ranks 9-13. I want it to be hard.
EDIT: And I'm 100% intrinsically motivated, not extrinsically motivated, as my opinion on loot and rewards on the comp reward should suggest.
@@casuallybad Sure not all casuals, but your demographic whether or not you want to accept it, is literally responsible for comp essentially being removed from the game. You can literally have a negative Win rate in survival and still get to 5500. Like with most things in the game, they made it about how much a player is willing to persevere through the garbage rather than it being skillful. Bungie has some fault as well since they locked best in slot weapons behind a skill gate most players couldn't realistically get through.
I'm happy that your experience is better and it's even better than you are actually in pvp because you like it, but you are an anomaly. Bungie has catered crucible to people who aren't loyal to it at all.
I loved the fact that you touched on the fact that bungie is catering towards the people who pop into only 3 matches for the pinnacle and not the people who get 10+ resets per season.
I know this might come as a shock but those casual gamers who just come in for the pinnacles out number the hardcore PvP crowd by a metric fuck ton. You ever wonder why Bungie keeps throwing content to PvE while they leave PvP out to dry? The two year drought of new crucible maps suspiciously lines up with the implementation of CBMM. It didn’t have a big enough population so it wasn’t a priority. So whine all you want but if this increases the player numbers for crucible, and makes it more of a priority then all the better.
@@horrorfan117 Cap. This isn't accurate. PvP gets no content cuz they can't monetize it. Also check this. 500k casuals play hr a week. Thats 500k hrs spent populating PvP. 50k dedicated PvP players spend 20 hrs in PvP a week. Thats 1m hrs spent population PvP. Population is very important but player retention is also very important. Your not selling the whole picture here. Your cherry picking and pushing flase narratives. Theres benefits to getting more ppl in Crucible but if those players ain't gonna stick around and PvP is gonna lose dedicated players than its a net loss as Crucible will be less populated.
@@nicholasgrogan856 You mean a business would choose to give 500k players a better experience to try and make them repeat customers as opposed to the 50k who've already pretty much proven they can be abused for years and not quit?
Man really fucking hard choice.
I honestly wouldn’t mind it if the connection was better and ( like you said) we actually got decent incentives for playing these type of matches
My experience with SBMM in a nutshell.
Shoots player in a head with a sniper, takes 3 seconds to die. Players shooting through walls where you can clearly see the bullet print on the wall. Players rubber banding all over the place. Weapons some how one shots. Sometimes getting matched with players that have negative KD’s while I have well over positive. I’ve turned into a pvp main, and this experience has completely ruined the game for me ain’t gonna lie.
You brought it up in the video, but something I've noticed looking at the destiny community is that there's a massive attitude problem towards players better than pvp at them.
If you're better, you get demonised as a sweat. If a change annoys you, it's a good change, because there's a pervasive 'us vs them' mentality. And that's not mentioning that you straight up don't get noticed when it comes to anything. The game isn't fun for me anymore? "Well the world doesn't revolve around you, buddy". The thought that better players want to play the game casually and don't derive fun from stomping bad players doesn't even seem to come up, and it's both hilarious and disheartening, certainly something I want to rant about some time.
Some people can't just seem to accept that everyone who plays this game wants to enjoy it, regardless of skill level
In my honest opinion, I've really enjoyed SBMM so far. I'm definitely at the higher end of matchmaking (#243 in control as of writing), and I haven't experienced any connection issues or long queue times yet. However, the number of high level players explaining these same problems shows that I'm only an outlier and these are real problems in SBMM right now. I've only had problems with quitting players, and I now realize it could often be due to connection issues, as outlined in the video.
For me it’s almost unplayable. Every. Single. Game. I’ll start off strong and then get shotgunned by someone with 3-4 walls and a mile of separation. Lagging, rubber banding, damage not even registering. God I hate it. If the connection quality was good I’d hate it less. But I can’t even do control anymore.
@@jambajuice2949 that's terrible
@@jambajuice2949 very true... wouldn't be half as terrible if the connections were solid.
“I dont have to eat shit to know what tastes bad, theres some food for though” sounds like a jcole line or something lol
the sandbox as it stands makes any above average skill 6v6 lobby feel almost unplayable. I love my beloved, my supremacy, my sunshot and my thorn, but all of them have been relegated to the vault because they're simply not designed in a way that lets them compete with all the NTTEs, 1 shot bodyshot arbalests, unflinching occluded finalitys etc that players of my level chose to abuse. if the sandbox was still constructed in a way that incentivised high paced, aggressive gunplay instead of the overwhelmingly passive meta we have now then SBMM would be a little less of a problem for me because I wouldn't be eating shit because I wasn't willing to sit invis in a lane the whole game
obviously sandbox is a different issue entirely but pre SBMM, control still felt quite loose and fast paced if your mechanics and gamesense were up to snuff. now every match feels like a 4-4 flawless game because everyone is running their full trials setups
When I get put into cheese abuser lobbies, I slap on my peacekeepers, equip osteo-striga along with my ikelos smg and play aggressive af. It’s a lot of fun to zoom around the maps and never having to worry about reloading. Plus, sometimes I’ll get a lucky multi kill with osteos poison effect
I'm a 1.5kd player and haven't touched pvp and don't think I will. connection is a big thing for me. I live in NA and play real late nights. connection has been getting worse ever season and I hear more people having problems this season.
You don't hear PvP players bitching and complaining about PvE content not being catered to us. Nor should we, since we're not PvE players. The only time I play PvE is when I feel the rare need to grind for a particular piece of gear, and it would be ridiculous for someone like me to expect Bungie to make changes to PvE content on my account
I’m an average/above average crucible player, I play all modes 6s, survival, and I make sure to go flawless every weekend. The only real difference I noticed in my control games is I can’t really get away with “experimental” load outs anymore. If I really want to win I gotta whip out the stuff I’m comfortable on in order to compete. And I do believe I’m getting higher quality games with less mercys on both sides, but we’ll see the season is still young.
I forgot to mention this in the video, but one of the few positives about this MM change is that i dont have to expect to deal with the brunt of team balancing since my lobbies are generally filled with solid players.
I’ve done a little over 80 games of control at this point. When solo, it’s balls to the wall sweat feast, however when playing with some average to below average players, the opponents actually got a lot easier, as if the game was still trying to balance out the total skill of the team. Curious to know if anyone else has seen this happen
Seems the game only considers the fire team leader's skill at this point. Let the lowest kd person invite the team and Q and you'll be in low skill lobbies. Why am I not even surprised given how little grasp the devs seem to have on either pvp or their own gaming engine these days.
@@mythe6669 ahhhh ok I get it
If your fireteam leader in stack is 0.5 you will match and stomp every other player cuz you in 0.99 bracket of skill level. Thats why there are so many fake stacks. I matched streamers like Silence and Syncro, playin in 5 stack and the fireteam leader with blue gear on.
I don't like how the rest of the casual community is reacting to this change in casual control. I work hard as player to get better and at the start of this season I'm finally doing really good. I know for a fact that isn't because of SBMM but me showing the results of getting better. I actaully loved connection based control. I got to play against really good players and it made me want to improve get better, Now I'm dying to shotgunners and other goofy things. I have tremendous respect for our pvp content creators they personally helped me get better.
My experience from today's session in control:
8 out of 10 games are mercy rules (on either side).
People quit left and right.
There was more lag than before SBMM.
Opponents felt much sweatier, which is ok but I felt restricted in my loadout choice (i.e. wanted to mess around with a sunshot/shotty loadout but the whole lobby would sit somewhere with a No Time) So yea. Not the most fun. 3/10 cinnamon stars for Bungo.
completely unrelated to the topic of the video lol but do you have advice on practicing peeking lanes and taking primary duels (accurately) while sliding out / sideways? you do it so immaculately in your gameplay, and I find it really difficult to be consistent or to practice it, particularly since the slide nerfs. It seems like most good players are practiced enough with their movement that they can slide completely sideways while aiming forward and shooting - I'm on controller so maybe that's the problem but I find making that 90 degree adjustment and acquiring my target really hard
Apologies that this is the thought that came to me while watching this lol - agree with your thoughts overall 100%, and I'm certainly nowhere near your skill bracket
@@SanjeevRau I would say it depends on the sensititivty you play and you will want to make sure your sprint turn scale is as high as possible. On MnK its alot easier since you can make a quick snap or microadjustment onto target if you overslide or something. But i guess my biggest tip is to try and pre-aim or take highly educated guesses on where your target might be when you slide, that why you dont have to work too hard on adjustments, otherwise you are just depending on flicks and thats an unreliable style of aiming.
@@2011manchu definitely agree about the sensitivity, I've recently lowered mine but increasing the sprint turn scale is a great new idea that I will try. Tbh, I hadn't even considered that I should be trying to pre aim or predict while making this sort of movement, but that totally makes sense as, yeah what always happens is I slide out and I'm facing the right way but I die due to the time it takes to make a huge adjustment. Really appreciate your tips!
@@SanjeevRau Not sure how much you lowered your sense but as a fellow controller player: you need pretty high sens and the turn scale all the way up to do these kind of slides. It's just the nature of the input method.
Maybe try a lower ads scaler to compensate if you have trouble aiming at higher sens?
@@mythe6669 oh ok I see. I did drop it pretty substantially from 18 to 14. I'll play around with the ads modifier
I went from 1KD to 2K in no time since SBMM. Why? I don't have unbrokens and flawless in my pool this season. What is the result? I am rocking with Ace of Spades and believe I am good for grinding people at my level when in reality I am still pretty trash at PvP. The only time I lose now are Mercy Stacks. Anyway, I am sorry for not having people to play with at your skill. Unfortunately mostly I see PVP as way to get my pinnacles and thats all, because all this is some illusion that I am better when I am not.
And people wonder why I quit, sitting in queues until getting timed out for SBMM, then when people complaining when teamwork and good gunplay would be what determined the match... I can't take anyone seriously who says "team shooter meta" like bruh... healing and buildcrafting has no part in the PvP ( apart from like rifts/supers/lumina etc )
And what happened to the other game modes? I thought supremacy was bad but at least supremacy was fun (ish) like let me play the game that I paid for...
This video brought pack a nerve that was struck hard by Bungo's terrible decision making...
When a first person shooter's main pvp focus isn't about gunplay or teamplay anymore you just need to stop and rethink your approach.
( I used to get so much unnecessary hate for saying this but ) compare destiny to any other similar game whether FPS/MMO and it's flaws are only more apparent... like forasken-era D2 had it's problems but at least it was fun-ish
The nail in the coffin for me is vaulting, I'm not even gonna get started on it but considering that I can't even play the content that I payed $140 to preorder, then they turn around and resell it to me, it should be illegal
So far, my overall control experience hasn’t changed much - I can still hang quite well, but the connections are definitely worse then before. I hate every kind of SBMM in any social playlist - just do CBMM with outlier protection and you are solid. Nobody wants to constantly run a GM nightfall while in the vanguard ops playlist just because you are good enough to do that; it’s completely misrepresenting the idea behind what was once called „quickplay“.
So I sat foot in comp for a bit, just to find that the Freelance matchmaking is random and weird AF. One game, you barely die and wipe the floor with the opponents, next time you barely get a kill. I started at couple of hundert points and matched people at 4K valor - what the hell? It’s nice to see, where you can improve though, so I gotta get in there more.
Comp goes purely off of skill and not points. It used to be an actual Ranked playlist and it was much better back then cuz u could actually see where u stood on the totem pole and it actually felt meaningful to move up in Rank. Now a days anyone can get to max Legend Rank. Its sad.
To think i was so excited to play pvp without classy restoration infesting my lobbies...
They could’ve solved the entire problem with either a freelance option or toggle on sbmm or cbmm like crossplay.
I'm like a top mid tier kinda pvp player seasonal kds usually around 1.60 or 1.70, currently sitting at 2.19/2.20 iv been having alot of fun and have had some friends that hate pvp actually enjoy it. But you do bring up a great point what they're doing will never translate from casual players wanting to go play trials because that's a whole different monster. I feel social and competitive need to be separate.
“Loose Sbmm” 😂😂😂
Me and my friends stopped playing pvp last season and destiny as a whole, on the belief that the sandbox was getting out of hand. Coming into this new season and trying to adjust to crucible to get back into the rhythm of things has just been awful. It’s beyond painful trying to acclimate to a game which tries to pull connections from anywhere because of sbmm. Being in Europe, connections were already pretty shoddy, but this was beyond tilting for my group and have abandoned ship until changes are made.
From what I read, the biggest complaint was 6 stacks and that 6 stacks pretty much stomped all over randoms so players got upset. Simple solution to that is 1.) get good. 2.) bungie make a matching option for fireteams so that fireteams vs fireteams could happen. That’s literally all they had to do
I don’t think get good is a real solution here reason being that if we assume each team has similar skill the one with a full team of people communicating is obviously gonna have the big advantage.
Below average players have this victim mindset that they refuse to resolve. It's ironic how they feel like the system oppresses them as Bungie pushes changes to make the below average experience easier. I can't tell if they lack more awareness in real life or in game
Actually I think higher level players have an entitled mindset where they think they are the only ones who matter and bad players are just scrubs who deserve to have a shitty time. Then they invent bullshit about poor players to justify this. Otherwise how can you justify a mode which ruins the game for the majority and drives away new players just so a small minority can stroke their egos without trying?
Yes SBMM modes need some kind of ranking or reward system. But all you guys trash talking SBMM are basically crying about how bad it is having to face people on the same skill level as you without giving any thought to what it’s like playing far better players.
@@samspade983 Clearly you didn't watch the video if you think good players hate facing good players. The issue with SBMM is less about the system itself and more about the fact it exacerbates core issues within D2. You have the meta outliers, the stacks, the highly disliked map rotation, and the unstable connections/lack of dedicated servers. Sweats do scrims since they have more control over these factors. You don't get that when you load up Control. I don't mind playing people who can shoot back with a team who can also shoot back, I don't like facing laggy 6 stacks on Disjunction using Lorentz while my teammates are a bunch of uncoordinated solo players. But yeah guess we're entitled for complaining about these issues
The problem is that they want to feel like getting better should result in easier matches, which is a fine concept in theory, but falls apart in practice. The larger the skill gap between players is, the less there is to learn from both ends. A lot of the more vocal high-end players that like speaking out against SBMM just hit you with argument of "you're just bad, you just need to get better at the game", but I would love to see how much they learn from getting dropped into chess and losing a dozen games against Magnus Carlsen. And that's giving them a handicap, because chess is a turn-based strategy game. It's easy to trace your mistakes back in chess and understand why they were mistakes, but it won't train you to think 6-12 moves ahead like Carlsen is able to. And what would Carlsen learn from playing against someone who loses in 6 moves? Nothing.
The ideal setting for any kind of improvement in a game like this is to challenge people that are just slightly better than you, so you can learn from their strategies and devise your own ways to counter them. SBMM creates more matches that fall under those circumstances, and yet it's hilarious to me to hear the vocal minority of high-end players shout "You should just get better at the game" while complaining that they now have to get better at the game. It's not like lower skill players are getting easier matches than higher skill players, they both have to play at their best in order to consistently win, so how anyone is being "punished", another common turn of phrase people are whinging about right now, for being better is beyond me.
@@liammiller299 i improved most when i got clapped by people well above my skill levels because it made me readjust my playstyle so i wasnt getting punished for stuff that works in casual lobbies
While i dont disagree, ive met some people that are just plain stupid, to play devils advocate here i dont think its entirely their fault. This games pvp can become insanely complex. From buildcrafting, positioning and awareness, and movement tech, theres alot to approach and the game does nothing to tell you whats what. And when the skill ceiling can go as high as it can, most of the time when these players load up and get rolled they dont even know where to begin disecting what theyve done wrong in a match. At the very least i feel mods should be more accessible, and maybe in the new light tutorial they could introduce some sort of buildcraft showcase? Atleast so maybe we dont run into the millionth loreley titan
Ive played over 150 games this season and tbh the only problem i see is the 6 stacks however, since matchmaking is pulling good people into my lobby, the 6 stacks arent as dominant as they would be, though a lot of people just leave the match without trying which is understandable. However, i dont know why bungie still hasnt done it, but they 100% should bring back the 4v4 control/clash/supremacy into the competitive playlist and actually just put cosmetic rewards. No redrix or not forgotten but shaders or cool emblems or something.
Amazing that people are crying because them and their friends came into control with blue weapons for the new light quest and got their asses handed to them. Yeah so did I. I’ve only been playing this game since earlier this year and I put in the work and now I’m a good player
Good now enjoy playing others that put in the work.. but a trend is starting to set that y'all that put in the work are now quiting against others that have put in the work.. seems like that kd for y'all was pretty inflated huh?.. let those blues play against blues you surely don't enjoy stomping new lights.. do you?..
@@RookieAllstar15 Those of you who are trash at pvp are not all new lights. Most of you are just trash because you’re trash. I can’t speak for everyone but when I put the game on, my first thought is not about stomping you trash players. My first thought is either go into comp or trials to really test myself or go into control to try some weird gun or armor that I know I’m not gonna do very well with because it isn’t good but I wanna use it for fun. I don’t have that anymore. Now everything is like comp or trials and I’m not always gonna want to go 100% and have to use the meta guns that I HAVE to use for comp/trials. Imagine playing COD with the same 2 guns every f*ing game. You’ll get bored quick. And there are games in trials where I get absolutely stomped. I don’t go complain to Bungie to make trials easier. I went there to play vs the best players. That’s how control might feel for you but, not being a dick, you just need to improve and that won’t be the case anymore. You have a choice there. As far as my kd, it hasn’t been affected by this change, again just speaking for myself, most of my games are good but every once in a while especially if my teammates quit I will only drop around 10-20 kills instead of my usual 30-40. Still I don’t understand all the backing out. I don’t have to back out because if some teammates do, the game will mercy so fast that it won’t make a difference anyway
Don’t forget that in last weeks twab bungie bragged on how high the pvp number were as if sbmm was causing better player populations when in reality a new season had just dropped and destiny also launched on epic games so of course there’s gonna be a higher player population
My experience has improved, I wouldn't say hugely, but significantly / noticeably. Yes, I am in that mid part of the curve I suppose (generally 1.1-1.2KD). I found so many things wrong with what you said that listing them out with explanation would make for a very long post, so I will not attempt it. I am just tired hearing this 2 weeks into a system after 3+ years of getting your way... just pointless to even try to explain
It's probably worth noting that 1.1-1.2 kd is above top 25% of players. Saying you are in the middle of the curve isn't accurate at all. The K/D curve is greatly skewed. 1.0 k/d isn't even in the middle. Also with SBMM, k/d isn't a good measure of skill now, because with SBMM in place, everyone should be closer to 1.0
@@OnionThyme So then you are saying that my experience is supposed to be actually worse, since I am not in the middle, but it is not, so I assume it's even better in the middle...
@@kombatres The higher up you get, the worse your experience will be. It's not just because you are going against better players. There are just much less players the higher you go up. Top 15% is around 1.25 k/d average. Your experience isn't that bad mostly because of how vast the disparity of k/d gets as you get into the higher skill brackets. Basically, the top 5-10% have an incredibly shitty experience due to low population and the mentality of players in that bracket, so that the bottom 90% can have a good experience.
Also don't sell yourself short by saying that you're above average for having a 1.1 k/d. I'm one of those people who makes 1.0 average players go 0.5 every lobby I was in, in previous seasons so this probably sounds bad coming from me but just because a top tier player makes you look like a really weak player doesn't mean you are in the lower end of the bracket. 1.1 is still really good at the game, compared to most players.
I'm currently sitting at 1.9 combat efficiency and so far, my games havent felt *that* different from before.
I'd still get matched with/against backyard-grown potatoes occasionally but i guess thats because its still early in the season
1.9 isnt super high, once you get into the 2.5+ ranges it gets bad really quick
CBMM is the main reason I improved in this game, taking me from a .3 to a 3.3. I used to get stomped every match by aforementioned OHK crutches and genuine top 1 percent players, slowly improving every match looking at what I was doing analytically to improve. Going from one extreme of the skill spectrum to the other shows me the entire landscape of what different types of matchmaking does to players. People who do not put in the same work, blood, sweat and tears, like I did, do not deserve to not lose matches because a 'good player' is on the enemy team. Lose, learn and improve. Matches in my skill bracket are enjoyable once in a while if two conditions are met: map is something comparable to Javelin-4, and the connections are stable. The issue is that these matches are needles in a haystack, since the playerbase has moved either to rumble, and the good maps are all filtered out due to heavy weighting of Disjunction. To my dismay, I shouldn't be having these types of matches in quickplay as it is supposed to be a fun 6v6 mode to go into and relax, using wacky builds and such. This seasons SBMM shows the disdain and imminent laziness for the bottom 50 percent to improve, maps should not be weighted towards ones unfit for just one play style, and the lack of a true competitive environment. Matches this season in control where the teams are equally matched, and the score is within 3-10 points are incredibly fun, only I shouldn't play my heart out for a blue pulse rifle. Maybe it would be fun if the SBMM bracket was actually loosened like they originally said, so I don't have to match players on different continents.
I was the same from when I first picked up the game I hated loosing but play sports taught me that I did something to loose in the first place weather that’s not having the right tools to fixable mistakes I went from .7 ish player to when I try a consistent 2.5 seasonally for the past 4 or 5 seasons I remember being a 1.2 when Luna and not forgotten was a prize and instead saying that why make something that powerful to where the top 20% could get either I said I will get better and solo queue my way there so by the time I get it it’s my skill that got me that weapon no someone handing it to me and I got both over those next 5 season with mountain too and recluse along with dragging 2 friends of mine that one is the person to complain about why the best pve weapon is in comp but refuses to try and rather bounty farm to oblivion and one guy who needs a “Batman” for him to play at his best. So when Sbmm is brought up im fine with as long as I have good maps, connections, and zero premade fire-teams and I’ll be fine.
Sbmm has definitely more lag and lots I mean lots of people quitting winning or losing teams in mid Match
The issue is when your opponents are so good you get punished no matter what you do. How can you learn if you always die? What does that teach you? You need to be playing opponents who’ll punish bad plays but let you succeed with good plays. You need SBMM for that.
hence why the competitive playlist existed. Now the loot is terrible and it needs a rework BUT it's SBMM and you really aren't reworded for playing the "casual" playlists either loll. And lets be honest, if you're getting ran over by someone on the opposing team, its USUALLY one or two players with lobby balancing. Unless its a 6 stack of course.
@@branflakes496 I agree with your points but 6 stacks are prominent even before they implemented Sbmm back , it ruined the pvp experience for me who's always going solo also not everyone likes to go 3v3 , everyone wants that wild nature of Control/6v6 that's why its so populated and everyone just wants to play in that.
@@flan_blue8291 yea thats fine, but if your goal is to actually "improve" like you say. Im just pointing there is a place for that. If just the improving is enough "reward" for you.
i think that we as a community are really gonna see how SBMM negatively affects the climate of the game when trials/ib comes back. All of these 1% are couped up in tournaments lobbies, honing their craft, or avoiding it all together. But when trials comes around and these players who have delusions of grandeur from being in their loose SBMM lobbies are gonna get ran by these 1% players and they are gonna realize that they haven't improved or got worse. Then they are gonna wanna add SBMM to trials/ib. Truly a slippery slope. Also fix the damn map pools weight, PLEASE BUNGIE! These maps like Disjunction, Widow's, Eternity truly just encourage these cringe ass non confrontational play styles that make the game not fun.
👏 great video!!! Well said! Subbed!
I’m trying to relax improve at pvp and I was wondering if there were any creators/discord servers that I could watch/join to help with that!
Much worse tbh,if im not playing 100% and using my best loadouts im literally getting bullied which is wild,i cant try any new weapons,i cant use any off meta builds because overall every match i get in is full of the hardest meta/cheese in the whole game
Been my experience too, cant really use the subpar off meta gimmicky options I want.
Why can't you use off meta and just know you won't do as good that match I'm confused you don't always have to be in the top or win its just destiny after all
@@theadventuresofkeyandad4220 Because if I use off meta bad option, that just increases the likelihood of a blowout or mercy on my end
Getting good at games is a luxury I believe. Getting good at anything takes a lot of time and dedication, games don’t really provide any monetary benefit unless you are the top 0.001% going pro. Expecting people to improve for the sake of improvement is not reasoning you can just broadly apply. 95% of players are going to be extrinsically motivated and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
i really don’t get the point of playing a game if you don’t want to get better at it
People would say staying in shape and working out is a luxury too. Gaming and physical fitness are obviously not the same thing, but if you want something you will find a way to get it. Luckily for anyone trying to improve in Destiny, you just need to be good at averaging a trade and you will be better than the average player. Players with the focus of improvement will use the little time they may have and play with intention. There are mad players with thousands of hours who spent all the time playing like zombies while a player witih intent spends even a quarter of that time and excells past the competition
honestly we are over thinking this at this point the solution is simple at loot to the high end pvp. at something meaningless in the larger scope of the game like shaders ornaments and a ritual weapon, a good weapon but not mountain top broken, something like nightfall weapons. add this changes to survival and problem solve. and let's be honest is not the hard to solve the issue let's just be real and except bungie just doesn't care enough for pvp period.
It's SOOOOO much worse. Every match is a lag fest and I don't think I've played a single match where either I'm the only one left of somebody on the opposite side is solo b4 it's over. And almost every game goes to time as a result of these things as well. I also can't put on a new build to try out or fun weapons/loadouts without feeling like a secear detriment to my team. I mean last season it constantly felt like I was required to carry my team if we were to win with regular games having me dropping 40+ and the 2nd place dropping maybe 10 with a 0.7 kda, but I those situations I could still have fun with crazy loadouts. Then I'd come across a 6 stack and have to sweat but I knew this wouldn't last and the game or 2 after I could use something wacky again if I wanted. This season it's all meta all the time or else we're getting mercied and I'm suddenly alone in the lobby. And what do I get for all this sweating, lagging and contact rotation of players leaving and joining my match......an ok smg and the same fusion I got 1 million times last season over and over again. I had a clanmate say the other day quickplay has felt the best it EVER has and he's never had more fun with it and me and my other clanmates in the chat immediately said you just told us with those words what skill level you play at lol. We already knew anyway, he's a new collage student who has little time to play that always complained last season about pvp and needed us to carry him when he wanted to get flawless. He also does this in pve, complaining about how "hard" the master challenges were and how long they were taking when he was the one causing the wipes dying no-stop and saying he wished the raid title was eaiser to get. He's a good kid though lol. But if he's the type of player who's loving sbmm and who Bungie is catering for we're in trouble. It's no coincidence this all happened the same day the game came to Epic. If all those Fortnight player's first experience with the game was getting pub stomped with some guy dropping 50 on their team game after game they would immediately be ran right back to Fortnight and may not buy those Fortnight skins Bungie worked so hard on and may instead buy Destiny skins in Fortnight and stomp Destiny players on Jav 4 in their game.
To me, most of my low skill friends have been enjoying pvp more as of late (I'm above average, not on Luna level yet lol.) Me however, I've been sticking to 3 because it's been better because I want to improve my skill set in this game, but maybe I shouldn't waste my time because the game isn't dedicated to that
It is a viscous cycle for me. I want to play PVP, and I don’t go in with PVE loadouts, or just for bounties. When I did, I would just become so tilted so fast from players sweating their asses off then punching down by Tbagging. The end result was always “nevermind PVP is not for me I guess.” Then I only do go back only for bounties, or not even. And I never improve because why would I do something g that stresses me out that is supposed to be fun. I’m sorry but I can not just choose to not be terrible in that environment. Git gud is not a very eloquent argument, and that essentially what you said.
All that said, I feel for you and do think that they should loosen it up, because otherwise they will take it out again completely and cave to the vocal minority. I have inspected some of the people in my lobbies and it seems like they are all in the +/- 1.0 range, and I have actually been getting like 3-5 KDA games, probably because the game thinks I am as bad as my K/D would suggest. I suppose my that is my skill rating when getting stomped and tilted. I will be playing as much control as I can stand the shit rewards this season to either A. Prove you wrong, or B. Enjoy it while it lasts.
I remember when CBMM was implemented in Beyond Light, Bungie said that it was because Control was meant feel “bombastic”. That was the day I started only going in for bounties and Iron Banner. It did not feel bombastic to me, it felt like I was being farmed. Now I Understand what they meant, because before I was always in the spawn screen when this bombastic moments were happening.
From what you’ve said, I think your issue was not necessarily that you didn’t want to get better, but that you didn’t really know how. Not that I’d personally recommend trying to get better while SBMM is present as you will only get punished for doing so, unless you want to farm trials rewards I guess. If SBMM does get turned off or you want to make some significant progress, despite the lack of incentive to really do so, I’d recommend doing 1v1s against players who are better than you, but still in the same realm so you are still able to fight back in order to improve your mechanical skill, and playing comp with a relatively consistent group to improve your team play, rotations and map knowledge
@@im44789 It's not so easy to find people to play with in PVP for me. I need a new clan I guess. LFGing for PVP is not something that I am comfortable doing, Destiny community being what it is.
No there is this thing called monetary gains. To all TH-camrs and Streamers they consider this as work. They don't want to be sweaty. (SBMM) when they work. Bottom line. SBMM is you working hard. Casuals try working hard to get good but we do it cause it's fun. Go to Work!
Bungie deserves your money gamers if you enjoy the game not the streamer or TH-camrs. These streamers and TH-camrs are just riding the coat tails of your favorite game.
Experience is every match if I’m not using my normal go to load out I’m
Not having fun. The heavy weighted maps like vostok disjunction and eternity are ridiculous.
Currently I’m in the top 1.3 percent and I can feel it every day match.
To your comment about not being able to turn a pvp hater into a pvp lover, that’s me. I used to hate pvp but I got bored with pve and I’m competitive by nature. Over the last ~year I started to focus on my game going from a .5kda to a 1.7 this season. Nothing compared to someone like you but starting this late in fps pvp game when I’m nearing 40 is hard.
Before sbmm it was so hard to gauge my skill because I would regularly match with and against top tier players and games were mostly one sided. Very few felt competitive and my mistakes were punished so harshly it was hard to see where I failed. With sbmm I can more easily tell whether a mistake was a reckless push or poor positioning or just wrong gun for the wrong engagement instead of getting sword skate shotgun sniped by wallah and wondering how the fuck am I supposed to counter that? All in all I think the ultimate goal is to get more people funneled upward so that the population of higher skilled players grow.
My $.02 as an average player.
You sir are an anomaly, glad that your goals are more clear with the new matchmaking. I mentioned that I thought Bungie is taking a gamble on trying to turn non pvp players into pvp enthusiasts. Season is still young and I hope we get some hard data in the future to see if that gamble dice roll didnt turn up snake-eye
I will say i was the exact same, in forsaken i was complete dogshit (like .3 lmao) and hated pvp, but in the late days opulence season i started playing a shit ton qp and comp because i felt good getting better, sbmm does not help you get better by putting you against bad people, i got better with cbmm becuase everyone was way better than me i got better by adding to my playstyle, im not the best but im consistent 1.35kd (2.0-2.10kda)and my matches are mostly the same as everyone in sbmm: laggy, sweaty and people leaving (i once played a sweaty ass 3 on 4 against players from korea and japan :) )a little different from your opinion but i enjoy cbmm a lot more, thanks for reading my novel i hope i did not post this comment twice my internet is shit
p.s i think i matched against lunarz one time
how do you regularly match top tier players? The whole point is that they are only like 1% of the playerbase, surely the players who you considered top tier were just crutching the op stuff of the season? but either ways big respect to u for gitting gud at the ripe old age of 40.
is ur kda 1.7 bc u got better or bc ur playing bad players due to sbmm
I still wish they would just let players shoot straight while airborne
that oppressive too "grounded players" remember? cant have that in are "ultra competitive gamemode"
Bungie is going through the same issue 343 is going though. Catering to an audience that otherwise wouldn't play, instead of focusing on their core audience (the average player) and expanding onto the more bounty focused audience with QOL improvements instead. SBMM will only ever work in a "ranked" setting (not competitive since apparently wording is important to detractors) with DEDICATED SERVERS. Peer-to-peer has proven time and time again, that it's only led to laggier matches when sbmm is implemented. So instead of implementing sbmm, they should've focused on lobby balancing and matchmaking (especially in cases with stacks).
SBMM is an attempt to raise pvp participation before it dies out and leaves nothing left but a handful of dedicated top tier players. Once the ceiling has been raised, they can gradually loosen SBMM or completely dissolve it. What top tier players are experiencing today, is a future that bungie is trying avoid (rock bottom population pool)! Top tier players need to take one for the team just like casual pinnacle players have been doing for years, and let it play out!
If it means pvp overall will prosper, im willing to eat shit for the rest of time in 6v6. My only wish is that when the comp revamp takes place, I dont want casual players complaining to a point where its made easier.
every sentence of lunarz is just so damn right
i wish more ppl would see this video with an open mind
Bungie can’t act like they want this game to be competitive with things like SBMM when they just have things in the game that are so much stronger than other options. For example the loadout no time + fusion lets you win every gun fight due to literally having the fastest TTK in the game short sidearms and smgs. And fusions defend against every rush so easily and literally counter primaries like smgs and even HC
Every game for me last season was a sweat match, I was mostly top 3 with teammates leaving. However now With sbmm I'm back to having casual matches and "top tier players" are having my experience from last season
I’m never playing Destiny again if Bungie believes their noobs that don’t even play the game as much let alone the crucible as much as the Veterans that have been there since the beginning(me D1 beta) and buy all the dlcs are more valuable. The point of crucible is to get good and have fun creating builds but not it’s sweat your ass off and use whatever is meta and still not top frag because thats not a thing anymore. They want the worse person in the match to be as good as the best person and this not even a competitive game. I’d be fine if it’s SBMM Iron banner only and not Control but if you’re new to the game and like SBMM maybe you should just get good but you have ruined it for all of us veterans. The point of the game is get good and perform better not get better and get punished even harder for doing so. I’m not dropping another dollar on this game until they remove SBMM and a lot of PVP veterans can say the same. We haven’t gotten any PvP maps in years except for Disjunction which is the worst map in the game because it’ll take you forever to get back in the action.
Honestly, I want to fight guys that have a similar skill to me, but it does not mean the game should give me the laggy environment.
I don’t know how NA goes, but in Asia server, people teleporting and have no reg almost every single game, ant it is getting worst when you go solo against 4-6 stacks. I still can’t believe there is no freelance QP.
I have checked the “looseness” of the SBMM in my one and only crucible game this season so far (I know it’s a poor sample) and it’s doesn’t appear to be loose at all. I had the highest Combat Rating in the lobby at 177. There were 2 fireteams of 2 in this lobby so two of the outliers are likely a result of that. It is also clear from this and the prediction destiny tracker gives of this map that the game was weighted heavily against my team likely due to my CR rating being 8 higher than opposing teams highest.
The opposing team consisted of:
Player 1 - (potentially bugged on trials report so likely false) 89
Player 2 - 160
Player 3 - 134
Player 4 - 165
Player 5 - 102
Player 6 - 169
Players 7 (abandoned and replaced) - 162
My Team consisted of:
Me - 177 rated
Player 2 - 161
Player 3 - 146
Player 4 - 126
Player 5 (abandoned and not replaced) - 116
Player 6 (abandoned and not replaced) - 155
For anyones interest.
Also one opposing player was teleporting and everyone clumped around the map team shooting with long range weapons.
I'm not sure when you did your singular match for testing but if it was before Bungie sent out the fix for PC players matching with Console players then sbmm was not active.
@@woomyboy98 it was today
@@Eclipse-bn2ng Interesting I guess you just got very unlucky with match making, especially since 2 of your teammates left and were never replaced
@@woomyboy98 it wasn’t prime time and it a decently high bracket so I’m guessing it’s a small pool at that time.
Best video I've seen on this subject to date
9:35 was exactly me what a coincidence, left disjunction
The problem is and always was connection, p2p connection in general is bad, so with sbmm now its got even worse, skill has nothing to do with it, top tier players cant do shit if they're playing against someone from another continent, so unless bungo changes connection type overall its shitfest in crucible then
and here I thought cbmm was a step in the right direction to mitigate the dog 💩 p2p connection that has always plagued this game. 1 step forward, 50 steps back. love to see the laggy ass burger king wifi warriors return from timbuktu 🙃 the reason why I never take this game seriously lol
I took a long brake Cus of circumstances but am consistently top 5-1% for trials and I solo a lot of quick play I come back to the game very excited to play and try out new stuff and just get rolled and then I have to sweat and now I’m just playing 6v6 comp now agents ppl so much better then I am Cus I took a break :( game sucks and trials is now casual -_-
Preach lol. Also people forget that some really good players play with friends that are terrible and it leads to just getting stomped to the point were you can't play together anymore at all because the friends who are bad just get ran over the whole night and have no fun. It segregates people from being able to casually play with friends who aren't good at PVP.
Hit the nail right on the head on this one. Of all the gaming communities I've been part of through the years i've never seen one demonize a section of community like destiny's does Its unbelievable imagine if pvp players made posts gloating about pve stuffed getting nerfed people would lose their fucking minds
I hate the argument about sweats just wanting to stomp bad players so much. I think non-pvp people assume that themselves or similar players are the intended target of said stomping. I can't fathom d2 players having fun farming absolute bots. For me there's zero enjoyment from an engagement with an opponent who isn't even close to killing me. The only "stomping" that's fun for me is against mid tier-high tier players. I don't get why someone would improve at pvp to be able to essentially farm recruit lv bots. If someone makes that argument they should at least phrase it "sweats just want to stomp players that would have been on par with them before they were sweats." P.S. pc/console mixed sbmm was 10x better for me than just console sbmm, way more primary gunfights and better overall matches, as soon as the matchmaking pools got fixed it was ass
There’s tons of videos from high profile streamers spawn killing people (especially point A spawns on those 2 shit Earth levels) - even this video shows some spawn killing at the very beginning. That’s intentional. Why would they do that if they didn’t enjoy it and/or know people want to see it?
Part of the popularity of these players is watching them shit on casuals. It’s not for me, but I know it is for many.
@@EulogyfortheAngels If your point was that people like pub-stomping videos that's fair, but spawn killing isn't the same thing. A player could have a 3kd or a .5kd, if they spawn and someone is already beaming them they're not going to be able to do much. As for the player doing the spawn killing, their only choice is leave the target who might come back any second alive or finish the kill and find the next person. I see plenty of youtubers leave afk's alone during their gameplay because they want more kills/want to show better gameplay etc. but not everyone's the same and spawns are pretty bad in d2.
@@ohsoverytired5635 Lobby balancing is an issue for both parties either mercy games happen more often or that 1 or 2 high k/d players carry literal sandbags againts the mix pools of high k/d streamers/solo/ 6 stacks(which are prominent even before they changed matchmaking) , we all just want to enjoy pvp but with some of the said reasons we can't for both parties involved.
@@flan_blue8291 I 100% agree. I wish we had pure cbmm in qp with next to zero team-balancing. Sure people would get rolled over sometimes but they already do and at least each match would be different. I hate the idea that bungie wants to force close matches by any means.
I’ve just been playing rumble at the moment because Sbmm has made control ( as a solo player) a flawless trials game every game I cba it is what it is bungie won’t change it.
I’m not sweat but I’m fairly decent at the game. I’ve had 5 back to back shitty laggy games and one that booted me out of d2. I play from west coast us and there can’t possibly be that low of a player count. It should focus connection first and then do a much better job at lobby balancing. I don’t want to play against new lights or have them on my team. I’m fine with matching similar skill when I have a good connection.
If Bungie wants SBMM, they need to raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor. Otherwise, this ain’t fun. But Bungie does NOT want a hardcore PVP community. I truly believe Bungie thinks we are bad for the community as a whole.
Bungie does the same mistake every big game company does in the past which destroyed a lot of franchises: Thinking casuals are enough to make big money. But in the end the die hard fan keeps the game alive and in D2 PvP the core fanbase is bigger and more important to the overall game health then some casual check list PvE noob. They will learn how it‘s going down the same way like Gambit is going down the hill since a few seasons.
I've always been a proponent for connection-based matchmaking over skill-based in casual modes. Yeah, in ranked, obviously it's skill-based, it's the ranked mode. But in casual? Why? Nothing's on the line. Rewards aren't performance-based. Bounties are braindead easy. Unless you've got parkinsons or a hand injury, nothing in casual crucible should be beyond 95% of the playerbase. And wild, swingy games can be really fun. Sometimes you get stomped, sometimes you stomp. That's how it goes. At least it's my fault if I'm not doing better, rather than the p2p connection's fault.
Me when i check out sbmms player supporter trials report out of curiosity and see that they failed to get carried by redeemer
So far I enjoy sbmm.
Because my account was so fkn horrible in terms of kd since i was a bot that couldn't even jump backwards to dodge a shotgun on PS4 days and i went like 10-10 every game.
So now that I returned after years and I'm vastly better AND have access to my preferred fov AND the special crutches are balanced now I'm just shit stomping 1.5kd lobbies as a decently good primary player since i essentially only die to teamshots or gimmicky stuff.
On the other hand i don't get to dip my toes fighting higher kd players now so I'm probably gonna stagnate in terms of decision making and how to deal with hyper aggressive players.
Eh whatever at least its fun when its not laggy, bots wanted sbmm so now they gotta deal with smurfs, reverse boosters and extra lag and they gonna quit anyway once they realise how obnoxious specials are if you dont know how to deal with them .
Good Video, definitely gotta Sub. SBMM was a really bad idea. trying to keep casual players while frustrating and making the game difficult for skilled players is a consequence of this. For games like Rift, Iron Banner, and Control, it should not base your skill off of your KD. it should be based off of you contribution to the games since those games are Heavy Objective Based Game Mode. Games like Rumble and Clash can be SBMM as they rely on "skills for kills". But I hate to see how I now only win 15% of my games and have lost 1 whole KD. 7 season previous I was constantly at a 50% win rate and my KD last season is now around 3. If bungie is gonna display our performance, I would rather have them not interfere just because they want to protect casual players.
I'm getting close matches a fair bit that actually feel like close matches instead of 1 guy carrying us and the blowouts actually being possible to come back from, so long as people stop leaving, I'm having to try and I'm actually finally learning how to play pvp better. I see people complain about how every high end match is a sweatfest but jesus the previous seasons they were a bore because there was always no way to properly even play. I hope they can figure out the connection issues and somehow deal with lower pop pools for higher level but sbmm is miles better and I hope the people who were tired of how shitty pvp was come and try it out and see how much better it is now.
I personally like getting punished on what type of play I did cause then it tells me how to adapt and gives me knowledge of oh we can do that so why not this
As a player who has actively tried to improve in PvP it seems to me that the harder the games against better players has improved my game no end…..if I’m now only matching against my skill level….I’ll improve but at a much slower rate….one of the best experience’s I’ve had in PvP was matching against Merculies …now things like that will never happen …plus the connections are awful….unlike IB this week where’s there were hardly any connection issues ….
I’d say I’m a mid skilled player and skill based is terrible, I constantly get slingshotted up and down, either I’m forced to carry a team of negatives with one guy having a similar kd but no zone caps, or I fight people out of my league and have a terrible time either way
I've always been around a 2.3 but I feel like that's my limit I've sunk a lot of hours in, I just don't think I have the hand eye co-ordination to get to a 3KD. That being said, people have their limits, but it's also correct that playing other mediocre players will not make you improve or learn better habits. I remember when they turned it off last time, I felt like I had just stepped out ther byperbaulic time chamber lol.
I’ve experienced Terrible lag this season.
i agree with your take on improving. i use to get stomped but i really liked pvp. if i were to play people just as new or as bad as me i would improve at a much slower rate because then everybody will be making the same mistakes as me and would be less likely to punish me for mine as often. if anything playing with some of my friends that were average to pretty good exposed me to a lot of the mistakes i was making that i would often get away with in quickplay helping improve even more. i also feel like placebo plays a part in some people thinking they’re improving now, i saw 1 guy posting his seasonal KDA emblem talking about how much he’s improved but when you look him up on destiny tracker he only went up .1 kd from the previous season with less than a couple 100 kills this season. also showed that he was already improving at a steady rate from season to season b4 they even added sbmm if he wanted to go strictly off KD or KDA
This sums up every bubble thought that I have ever had. 😭
Edit: first few Minutes I'll continue below.
First off I absolutely agree I'm quiting pre-lightfall grappling hooks is enough and it's gonna ruin my mood alr.
But more onto what was discussed. I hate how in 97% of the games I get into is people sitting back of the map throne world - and or lasering from afar the "skill" nowadays feels like everyone is hiding and movement isn't allowed and is heavily punished each lobby i play on in control is six V six stacks as a solo pvp player it's hard to find matches where it feels anything like balanced so far it's felt pretyy skewered. Pulse's & Scouts are the only things I see in any form of pvp (as a console player). I run Shayura's Wrath & Eye of Sol (adept) for context. So sniping from me had drastically increased and one of the only things I end up getting to play with. Very rarely do I use Shayura's. But that's because that is every 6 stack I run into is doing this pulse and scout and sit back method so far. So I actually hate 6v6 - not saying by any means I am any form of good.
But - playing 3v3 gives me a chance. At the very least to try and expect different gameplay and if they aren't using the warlock slide melee is punishment and can entirely one shot a team if they are all together. ARC IS MY FAVORITE SUBCLASS ATM. I feel like as for everything else it was summed up to basically my exact thoughts. I try my best to Solo play PVP. And it's hard but- I have fun, I weep , I still try I'm not some God.
I made a forum post about how SBMM was worse than better for the game, and wish I could have showed some of the trolls this. You make incredible solid points in a respectable mature manner. Gotta respect it.
dysfunction xD exactly what it should be called lol
SBMM won’t solve anything. The reason casuals get turned off about PVP is because PVP as a whole is lackluster and void of any content. There’s no frequent map releases, there’s not an abundance of modes (fun and sweaty) to play, theres no worthwhile rewards and most of all, there’s no ACTUAL competitive mode. Trials and the “competitive” aren’t competitive, it’s just 3’s. It may FEEL sweaty or hard, not because it’s competitive, but because people want things, that’s it.
If they want to improve the PVP experience, they need to add an actual competitive mode first with rankings. I’m talking fixed load outs and fixed abilities on each team.
I agree with every single thing you said in this video. Personally, I don't mind fighting plays of my skill and find the added challenge to be rlly fun.
What I don't enjoy is fighting players on the other side of the planet and having them kill me across the map as well as large maps like Cathedral of Dusk being heavily weighed into matches. I don't wanna spend 1 whole minute running from one side of the map to the other to maybe get in a gunfight. The AE thing theres nothing we can rlly do to change since it looks like its here to stay but I would heavily appreciate it if they removed the sliding nerf for all weapons since I'm now fighting players of equal skill so it shouldn't be "oppressive" to play against.
Finally, although I think it's a good thing to get input from the casual pvp players (since they have different perspectives that differ from a hardcore pvp player), I hate when they try to invalidate your constructive critizisms/opinions on pvp simply out of spite that you're a better player or a "sweat". Those same people who do that weird crap are the same ones that try to preach positivity in the community which I just think is pretty hypocritical.
It has definitely gotten sweatier for sure I load into control now and everyone on my team is 1.5 or higher and same for the other team I’m assuming, it’s pretty rare these days for me to see 30+ kills in a lobby and my overall KD is like 1.4 or something like that and I feel like even I deal with the same connection problems over seas people there’s still a problem with connection from Xbox to PlayStation and vice Versa I don’t hate the changes I don’t mind playing people
at my skill and higher but I’ve seen
people one the lower end complain more recently than they have been bc their games are consistently sweatier as well bc the thing they don’t realize is if you are a .8 it makes no difference if a .95 or a 1.0 beats you as opposed to someone 2.0+ it’s still gonna be sweaty