Toby is one of the smartest brightest honest mechanic I have seen on TH-cam. Bring more videos from this mechanic. He is telling the truth the way it is. This mechanic will call out all the corrupt manufacturers and the models they sell. Reliability = how frequently a vehicle breakdown and how much it cost to repair. $$$$$ ???? How much it cost for maintenance?
He's an idiot. Go buy any Toyota Corolla, Camry or RAV4 or Highlander or Sienna and see for yourself that they will last WAY more than 100k miles, with as little as just oil changes. Millions of Toyotas in taxi all over the world casually going for 500k miles and more. This Toby is just playing dumb and exaggerating old stereotypes just for the show for the camera, because he knows he is on youtube. Unfortunately most mechanics nowadays are dumb. They don't used to make them mechanics like they used to in old days. Oh well, another idiot mechanic. Not the first one and not the last one.
No don't do that, nobody want's that. Bring somebody who knows all about the difference between square vs round buttons. Can explain to us the gold exhaust tips vs chrome. Who's an expert in the difference between the red and the blue version of the car. We want real content and none of that Toby sense.
I had an 1974 Pontiac Ventura that I got 20 years and 623,000 miles out of it before someone ran a red light and totaled it. I used it at night to go to work and my wife used it during the day for kids. etc. I could do all the maintaince on it with help from a auto book. Now unless you have a $4000 or more computer to see what is wrong on a new car for get it. you used to be able to just get the part, now you have to buy the whole component at much more $$$$$.
I am a mechanic and fix wrecked vehicles. Newer vehicles are more complicated but old cars don't hold up very well in an accident. With all the distracted drivers on the road I would not want to put my family in a vehicle that is much older then 2010.
Old cars have a bunch of issues too.... even if they're lower miles. Hoses, rubber seals and plastic all can play havoc with older cars... fixing those issues aren't always simple endeavors. Another sad fact to consider is that parts for older cars are drying up (thanks Cash for Clunkers!) so while you might be driving a reliable deal of a hoopdie, it might get short-lived by lack of parts.
Agreed, it depends really. Like a 90s Toyota or Honda is miles ahead in being easy to work on, esp. if it was a well taken care of car, but if you buy a old used Fiat, porsche, mercedes.....that's just a nightmare to work on from costs and complexity...you have to be willing to take that on - most people aren't
People use the money when they sell their old car for salvage to buy a newer car and salvage cars create MORE parts not less. Who told you that Cash for Clunkers was bad for the pool of used parts? The less cars running on the road the more parts will he available. Its COMMON SENSE.
Thank you! That is exactly how you do it. Buy new and drive until wheel fall off. I still drive 2000 Ford Focus, bought brand new. I am sick of inheriting other people's negligence.
if your going to run a VW its gotta be a tdi! I loved my 2010 golf tdi and bought a mk4 jetta tdi and golf tdi, they were terrific cars.....my mk7 gti was a terrible car tho, constant problems.
I am old. Old enough to know the reliability of those late 1960s and 1970s cars and I did all my own maintenance at a frequency much shorter than recommended. First you could do your own maintenance and the cost for parts was reasonable and available. Second, things were going to fail at much much lower mileage than they do today. Third, taking a cross country trip in a brand new car may or may not involve stops to repair issues. Fourth, cars with manufacturing or engineering defects were your fault once the 1 year or 12k mile warranty was up. Recalls were almost unheard of in that age. Vehicles have become much more reliable, but they have more things to go wrong and more expensive for repairs.
You are absolutely right. People like this young mechanic are NOT old enough to have lived through dealing with a car from the 60s, 70s, 80s. New car, while a pain in the ass to deal with at time due to space constraints, they are A LOT longer lasting with LESS maintenance. Amazing! Computers do not go bad unless moisture gets in there, or a short happens. This young man does NOT understand that planned obsolescence has been a thing since the inception of consumer products, i.e. long time ago. He is also wrong with the car only lasting 100K miles. They last 100K when people do NOT maintain them. Most alternators and starters last well over 100K!
@@AgonxOC My favorite designs were the early 1970 prior to unleaded and cat converters. I have many times considered buying one of these vintage cars but my memory of the constant maintenence when relatively new, make me change my mind. I still have a strobe timing light and many of the necessary tools but I don't think I will ever use them again. It is hard to imagine new vehicles becoming classics as the plastics disintegrate over time and the constant redesign of parts and computer control of so much makes aftermarket supplies unrealistic.
I have a 2015 Honda civic ex 1.8L. I regularly keep up maintenance on it and outside of tires, brakes, fluids and a serpentine belt it's been super reliable!
Frankly I want a new vehicle for one reason only: So I am not inheriting someone elses lack of maintenance. I don't want to buy a used car for nearly as much as a new one and find out that I am looking at thousands of dollars of repairs all because someone couldn't be bothered to at least vaguely follow the maintenance intervals. I have played that game with every car I have thus owned and its not something I want to play if I don't have to.
@@kenheaney4803 That's the key with buying a used car, the maintenance history. Finding an older car with the documented maintenance history at the right price can be difficult, but to me it is worth the effort. Another caveat is doing your research so you are able to identify what model from what years is known to be a reliable long lasting vehicle. A gen 2 Mini, even with a well documented service history, is still going to be a financial liability in repairs after 100k miles. A well maintained gen 1 Tundra or Sequoia will likely last 400k miles or more with a much lower financial cost in repairs.
Yep. "It's only money" to have a new car where YOU have made EVERY decision regarding maintenance, the way you drive, and everything else. Even "how someone might have stunk the holy crap" out of the interior. I DON'T WANT TO SAVE ONE PENNY by inheriting whatever stupid, ignorant decisions some prior owner has made with a vehicle.
Having driven many cars during the 1960s and 1970s within five years you had the need for new drum brakes at least once, tires a few times, a tune up about every year and a half, and undoubtedly rust in the rockers and fenders. Getting 100,000 miles was considered rare without major rebuilding of an engine/trans (in many cases but not all). And at times getting a carburetor just right was a pain in the ---! But they sure did ride nice. Then came the 1980s and they just got even worse from an engine and transmission topic. A car has to be pretty old to start to rust now, and this in the northeast. Tires, spark plugs and disc brakes last a very long time now, from the factory.
Great to see guys like Toby still doing it....and with integrity and honesty. A dying breed unfortunatly. Its becoming a world of Dealership vultures and corporate Greed at every turn.
I really enjoyed this video. I have a friend who has had a ranch for more than 50 years. He claims reliability goes away after 12-15 years. His reasoning is that that is when rubbers and plastics deteriorating to the point that they must be replaced. Once you start you are constantly chasing that rat and by the time you get it all done you would have better off replacing the vehicle than trying to save your old clunker. I think he’s got a great point!
Depending on how old, older vehicles may be less complex and easier to work on. I live in the rust belt so used vehicles need to be checked for rust as well as were they maintained. New vehicles post pandemic are usually super expensive and may have recalls and general reliability seem lower to me. Glad my vehicle is a 2014 and hopefully I can keep it going for alot longer.
Everyone who says buy used, always talks about resale value. What if you 100% plan to keep your car until it essentially dies? Used cars come with unknown factors, such as not knowing how it was broken in or if someone kept up with the maintenance of the vehicle. Plus, think of this 40k to 60k, a used car will likely need brakes and rotors. 80k to 100k, a used car will likely need several new suspension items and brakes.
True for those buying from careless owners, especially unreliable and high TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) clunkers, such as Mercedes, Jaguar, Land Rover etc. However, buying top Japanese cars from a diligent owner (but not a racing enthusiast!), who can prove that he changed the oil after the first 1000 miles and then each 5000 miles and every other consumables (like the transmission oil), thus eliminating the "unknown factors", makes a lot of financial sense. Very rarely I buy new (like my Miata ND2 RF, bought with more than 15% off the MRSP), usually I buy Japanese naturally aspirated or hybrid cars: those about 5 years old I am looking for deals like below 50% MRSP, but in the last years I bought 2 almost new Japanese cars (used only few months, with only few thousand miles), with a discount bigger than 30% vs. the market price: a Lexus UX 250h F Sport and a Suzuki Jimny LCV (real 4x4). After a few years with zero issues (not even recalls), I am more than pleased that I can sell them for the same money I bought them (yes, less value because of the inflation), but they are the best (in both reliability and low TCO=Total Cost of Ownership), champions of their segments, thus I shall keep them for a few more years. Buying used is far better!!! Just do the necessary verifications.
My first car was a 1977 Dodge Aspen. Electronic Ignition and Fuel Injection were huge innovations that made every car better. ABS Brakes were also a great safety advancement for wet/snow driving. In my current car I really appreciate the backup camera and blind spot alerts. I think the problem with current cars is not reliability, but the mindset by manufacturers that every system is an expensive module that gets replaced instead of being made repairable. I also own a car that has a Canbus network, Lin network and a Most network... troubleshooting becomes a nightmare and you need an network expert to diagnose problems.
Many young people get all nostalgic about old cars, but the reality was not as rosy. As recently as the early 1980s we used to have a party in the rare event of someone's odometer hitting 100-thousand kilometres and resetting to zero. It's kind of telling that not even the odometers were designed for more than 100k. And the cars used to break down regularly on the way to that mileage.
@@watchmanonthewall14 Except that most repairs to pre-80s cars could be done by a backyard mechanic, or yourself with the help of a maintenance manual, parts were a lot cheaper sometimes free at the local junkyard (hard to find those these days), heck a couple of teens could even swap out a motor. I took my 2017 Tucson to a local mechanic, and he couldn't help me, told me to take it to the dealership where they had the "expertise", and that was expensive.
@@vt1340 Ironically, many young techs cannot effectively work on some of the older cars, because they have been trained to use computers to diagnose problems. There were no computers in 60s and 70s cars, so mechanics relied on other means to make a diagnosis. It can go both ways, but I hear what you're saying.
2016 Mazda CX-5, I have put 204,000 miles nothing done to the engine and transmission except fluid & filter & spark plug changes. AC still blows cold with no ac recharges yet. One serpentine belt and tensioner replacement. Replaced the 12 volt battery twice, a set of brakes and rotors. And just put the third set of tires on. No fluid leaks and no oil burning so far. DI normally aspirated engine, no check engine lights, same mpgs since I've gotten the car, and no carbon cleanings done. Mazda along with many other manufacturers include an air oil separator from the factory that all CX-5s have. And never broken down
@@admiralkrankandhismightyba158 A lot of animosity over the info on my brake pads. Believe what you want, one axle's brake pads and rotors were changed at 105,000 miles, and the other axle's brake pads and rotors were changed at 165,000 miles. Have a good day
@@danong9458 It's not animosity. It's just that bs is bs and should be called out. There are people who believe lies like that and think they can completely neglect a car because it's a foreign brand. It's asinine.
The best thing about old American trucks/SUVs is that you can get parts for vehicles as old as 1947 from a company like LMC Truck. They have all the bolts, washers, switches, seats, body panels etc. LMC Truck even make their own parts like bumpers and seats so you have more options and are not limited to factory production parts. I'm glad Toby said the same thing I've been trying to get across in the comments about direct injection and small displacement turbocharged engines in heavy mid-sized trucks. I don't have a problem with small displacement turbocharged engines in a car or SUV because it hauls people but doesn't need to tow or carry heavy cargo like a truck. Everything you do to make a truck more capable off-road like bigger tires, steel winch bumpers, etc, adds weight, and it puts more drag/stress on the drivetrain. A truck engine should not work hard when empty and when towing or heavily loaded it should have enough extra power to go up steep hills. Reliability is difficult to determine on vehicles because it depends if the vehicle was maintained properly or abused and neglected. Cars that sit in a garage and are not driven have problems because the engine needs to heat up to burn off water condensation and the parts need to move. When you were talking about some parts failing what you missed is that some parts on a vehicle are called "consumables" and are designed to fail because they are cheap and easy to replace and sometimes their destruction protects more expensive parts. A taxi cab can run for a million miles because the seals in the transmission become brittle from heat cycles. If your taxi runs for long periods of time the engine stays warm and the transmission seals and all the gaskets are under less stress. When a car sits all night it gets cold, you drive and it gets warm (expanding metal parts) then when you stop it cools ( metal contracts) putting stress on gaskets bolts, etc. Short drives of under 30 minutes can damage your engine because the engine doesn't get to operating temperature and water from condensation can't burn off unless you go for a long drive at least once a month. Everyone says electric cars are maintenance free but that's not true. Rich Rebuilds made a video called "Rats Killed My Tesla" and they show how you can't see behind the panels and rodents can get in there, make a nest and chew on the wiring.
@@danguelph2676 I forgot that Toyota isn't a private company devoted to making a profit. I guess since the Toyota Corporation is a charity devoted to building top quality vehicles at cost, and refuse to make a profit, so they can pass savings on to the consumer your argument makes sense. There are a lot of different car manufacturers around the world and a lot of choices for consumers in each country. You spend your money on any brand of vehicle you want and I'll do the same.
2 things: 1st the bearings and pistons in diesels are made to last longer but in gasoline engines they may not be built as robustly and to spin to 7k RPM must be lighter. That lightness comes at a price. 2nd is that cooling defines longevity so a small engine pushing a heavy load could do very well but that engine would need to burn fuel the right way and run cool all throughout to last longer.
Of my current cars, the oldest is a 1936 and the youngest is a 2022. All of them will fire up and take you pretty much anywhere. The difference is the amount of maintenance it takes to keep them that way. The 1936 Chevy is all metal parts (except for the wood cab frame and floors) and easy and simple to work on. But with no oil filter, maintenance intervals are close together. The 2002 BMW M5 is easy to maintain as well. But the plastic parts made at that time just plain disintegrate and the replacements are not cheap. Parts that wear out like shocks, brakes, high performance tires, etc are far more expensive on this car than my other cars. My three Fords - 2000 Excursion, 2002 Lincoln Town Car, 2011 E350 Super duty Passenger Van have all been very robust but I did replace things like AC blend door actuators, air suspension module. ABS sensor but all of those parts were cheap and widely available. Plus since they all use the same oil and filter, I save money buying bulk 😂 My newest car is a Tesla Model 3 Performance - zero maintenance except for rotating the tires and keeping them inflated, filling the windshield washer reservoir, and replacing the wiper blades. Reliability is too early to tell but based on my brother’s 2014 Model S, it’s gonna be cheap to keep running. I maintain all my cars myself so there’s that savings. I think you should just buy what you love because if you love what you drive, chances are high that you’ll take better care of it.
The question is really when the complexity curve crossed the maintenance curve... I figure about 1995 to 2005... somewhere in there, give or take 5 years either way...
Reliability of old versus new is a difficult discussion. The 70's and 80's vehicles would generally last 100k miles without major issues, but the problems were different and general maintenance was higher. They needed oil changes every 3k miles, routine tune ups every 30k miles, exhaust system replacements every couple of years and oil leaks and corrosion were common concerns. Now, those issues have all but been resolved, but when the electronic gremlins or costly driveline issues show up at higher mileage, the repair costs can quickly exceed the value of the vehicle. For those who can repair their own vehicles using minimum diagnostic equipment, older products will always have an appeal. The driving dynamics are so much different also - particularly going back 40-50 years. As an owner of a variety of vehicles across 40+ years, they are so much different. People love the old stuff, but they do not drive well - sloppy steering, mediocre brakes, poor handling, poor ride quality, squeaks and rattles and wind noise were all perfectly normal characteristics that customers would not accept in a modern vehicle. Yes, old cars have a design that can be very appealing, but there are several downsides as well. It's all a matter of perspective.
Actually they won’t. Most cars from that era had major oil burning and transmission slipping by 75k miles. Modern cars hold up much better to abuse. That being said I’d avoid late 2020 to early 2024 Covid cars and trucks.
The data doesn’t back up what you are saying. 70-80s vehicles by the data were the least reliable. In fact 100,000 was considered end of life for 70s cars due to poor quality.
@@stevejohnson5837 a reason people believe older cars are better is that they are only thinking of the ones still on the road; they can’t see the millions more long since scrapped.
Well, back in the eighties I remember people saying not to buy a new vehicle due to all the emissions on the new vehicles. Now days I would say, buy a new vehicle if you plan to drive it for a long time, not if you plan on trading it in every year. Do your research, don’t buy a new vehicle that has lots of recalls or known major issues. The less options on the vehicle, the less there is to go wrong later on. Make sure that you can afford it first, call your insurance agent, find out the taxes and fees, how much to maintain the vehicle, oil changes, etc.
And by old that means the 90’s. I work on vintage cars for a living and they wrinkle like tin cans. Whenever someone asks about buying a teen a car I say buy the absolute newest car you can easily afford
@@trahar6257 the misconception is that wrinkling like tin cans is bad. Crumple zones are designed to take up inertia from impact and not transfer it to your organs and spine etc. that’s why old vintage cars are THE most dangerous in an accident. The have no crumpling, all of the impact is taken straight to the human body, no seat belt pretension to suck you back and hold you, no shoulder belt to keep from whiplashing, no air bags to keep the steering wheel out of your chest. That being said yes I agree, the new cars are built stronger structurally and yet still wrinkle. The newest engineering is by design to be safer.
@@nickgrant42 check owners manual man, don't just trust idiots on youtube. That been said it's a good habit to check it once a year. It's very easy, and cheap.
I own an '06 Honda CR-V that I bought new 18 and 2/3 years ago. Still drives great. Mine has always been kept outdoors with no problems; in areas with hailstorms that would be an issue.
Oh why won't you drop your modern photo gear thena and use 1910's cameras huh? Oh for some reason digital display on camera is not good enough reason to do so huh? Yeah, that's what I thought. Bunch of hippocrites and idiots spreading old stereotypes.
The main issue we have here in Ontario Canada is rust? The salt and brine dumped on the road pretty much makes it impossible to find a decent used car over 10 years old. I’m skeptical of used cars less than 5 years old, because those cars are often leased and driven hard by people that don’t do any preventative maintenance (such as under coating). They do the bare minimum maintenance, love them and leave them to be someone else’s problem. For the above reason I still buy new and at the very least get 4-5 years of warranty, peace of mind.
No personal experience with out of province. At least they shouldn’t have the rust issue. If you can get all maintenance history… If your taking it to a salt/brine Province get it undercoated right away.
There are different ways to measure reliability. To 100k cars today are very reliable (aside from a few dogs which always exist). Beyond 100k is a mixed bag. Your old cars will last forever but cars like your Jeep have probably been rebuilt multiple times. To an engineer of the day, that’s not a durability issue, it’s just a form of maintenance. Engines today will last longer without needing that kind of work, but aren’t designed to be rebuilt. (By the time they need it, a rebuild cost more than the cars worth) There’s more but you get the idea…
If your really old and remember the cars of the fifties and sixties you also remember that after three years it was definitely time to trade. Tires, battery, spark plugs, coolant and brakes worn out and probably replaced at least once in three years. If you lived in the “rust belt” fenders and rocker panels rusted along with muffler and exhaust pipes. Those “free muffler” shops were famous for “the mufflers free, but the pipes and clamps for the “free” muffler cost as much as the original exhaust system replacement two years ago.
Great video, guys. The key point when it comes to making your car last is maintenance. No car is perfect, and things do wear out over time and require replacement(belts, hoses, sensors), but if you don't keep up with your maintenance, you will ask for trouble later.
For me, buying new is for a few reasons: Full warranty, usually best deals and interest rates vs used, I know no one has abused the car yet, less paint issue risk. I see how most people (don’t) take care of their vehicles and don’t want to deal with that. I just new cars were required to have certain types of physical controls.
I would consider new cars if the cost wasnt so much more than a few years later model. Warranty is nice to have but its only as good as the dealership that honors it.
The depreciation hit new car buyers take is basically guaranteed sunk cost against the potential for high maintenance costs. That's a risk that used car buyers are willing to take. New car buyers are necessary to make used cars available for us. So 'round and'round we go...
@@zenfishbike agreed this is why when buying used cars, its best to go over common issues. And know what to look at during an inspection. If you are really concerned, you can bring a honest mechanic to look at it.
Big thanks to Case, Tommy, Andre and Toby for interesting review about reliable old and new cars. American cars were relatively affortable and some were known for high quality compared with European in the late 70thies. After my parents became sick I quit the school to be able to help them and started a company as an 16 year old kid in the mid 70thies, and after 4 years in 78 I was in the need for a better car and would like to try a an American car for my little company. Norway have always had high taxes on passenger cars, but registrated as work truck/vagon the cars at the time had much lower taxes. I didn't want a flashy one and bought the cheapest Chevy Blazer with RWD and straight six gas engine with 3 speed manual gearbox. This of course was my first new car, but together with Land Cruiser this is at the top of my quality list of all the cars I ever had after tens of cars in companies and for private use, and like the LC the Blazer held the value well when I re-sold it. I mostly was driving tha Blazer in direct (third) and only heard a kind low hum from the engine, nice. This car had body panels so strong that we didn't even get a scratch when a friend of mine backed into a tree, we just brushed off some bark on a nickel-plated strip, which of course was made of steel. Looking back the car companies mostly made simple and reliable cars in the 80thies, but we once we bought a completely disaster from a European brand made in Brazil. In the 90thies such as the old 900 series Volvo in our opinion was the most reliable but relatively costly, where completely new FWD 850 needed a couple of years and a smaller face lift, and of course the service by the dealers always have been importent. The last 20 years our experience with Toyota and Lexus is unique with the Land Cruiser and Lexus RX at the top of the list, where T/L were cold enough to hold back a little on some technology wayting for better reliability. They got some criticism for this with such as old looking screens, we understand this, but loved that we never had to replace anything, and "the lady" in our navigation still found the needed adress, where Toby gave an importent lesson; "We should rather have the eyes at the road than on some screens", of course he is right. Now Toyota and Lexus have 10 years warranty but we have newer had need for more than the importent normal maintanance. My wife now has a Lexus RZ 450e, and even why you are not found of the electric range a lot of people in reality have other driving pattern in Norway, and the combination of range and lighter weight is great for us. After I became disabled after a too high dose of vaccine we cannot drive more than max 3 hours on the best days before a stop if we rarely are driving a longer trip. And because we love some trips at old twisty and some more bumpy roads, we are happy with the lower weight compared with other bevs with the same comfort and interior space. A real break through for solid state batteries would might make bevs lighter and more reliable. Thanks and best wishes from Norwegian friends
I purchased my pick-up truck brand new at the start of 2020 & i have zero regrets. I spent 6 months researching the truck I wanted for common problems and which dealership's were the best for servicing & honouring warranty claims. I then purchased my truck and have had it serviced at the same dealership since new. The servicing is a little more exspensive, but the service advisor is upfront about any potential issues that will need attention in the near future and treats me like royalty (which is extremely these days)
My “classic” 2011 Elantra GLS port injected has almost 200k miles, change all the fluids before they are due and drive sensibly. Don’t forget the regular long highway drives too …
Thank you guys awesome video. How do you clean out that carbon? I have a direct injection V8 with 140, 000 miles and want to clean it. Any suggestions would be awesome thank you.
Planned obsolescence so true manufacturers want you to come back sooner to purchase another one. The worst thing to come out past 15 years is extended oil change intervals just destroy engines with sludge.
They recommend 5k synthetic oil changes under more severe duty. This will not cause sludge or end the life of an engine early. Modern vehicles keep lasting longer despite increased complexity.
Planned obsolescence has always been there. Even in 1972. Everything is designed to an expected useful life. But now they can predict more precisely meaning they don't over build them. Most of the engine issues are caused by EPA regulations, not intended design. Meeting emissions is a priority over the rest or the vehicles cannot be sold. Back pedal the emissions and they'll get more reliable.
Right now 1st gen chevy cruze is a mechanics car, can find cheap import parts and it is generally easy to service parts because there is so much room in the engine bay.
Just get a 2010+ Toyota or Nissan 4.0. V6 with a 6 speed manual and you're good to go. Good driving dynamics, easy to work on, reliable as a wood burning stove, decent metallurgy and modern enough technology. That's the sweet spot.
I had 2 new compacts but never got past the 7 year mark, both were high milage (10000 or so) all running Maintenace was done at the dealership and yet the Maintenace skyrocketed after the 6 year mark . So imo you can get a good deal on a "used" car if it's a lease return that's less than 5 years old, otherwise its high risk.
Use case of one, but I have been lucky to keep my '03 Saturn Ion still running. It is a basic version (only option is A/C, which is now pretty much toast). I have test driven newer GM's, and am glad that I didn't buy one.
I feel like i need to nuance what i mean about not liking new vehicles. I want a new reliable powertrain. But i want that wrapped with manual locks, crank windows, 4x4 on the floor with neutral in the trasfer case, colum shifter, and all the power without multiple modes or traction control. Just need a radio with Bluetooth and manual gauges. I am cool with a back up camera those are nice. A bumper you can easily put a grill guard on since i sometimes have to use my pickup to push or hold things.
There’s a shortage of mechanics and parts and labor are at an all time high, along with used car interest rates … you can tell these guys are from Boulder, CO
The old Porsche 911 convertible wasn't used as an example of older vehicles thank God. That car corrupts the affordability data. Ask Roman...😂😅😊 Still a badass car though...
I remember the days when a hush would fall over a party when you happened to mention that you drove your 1970 Chevy 100,000 miles, so I don't 100% agree with Toby about reliability. He is spot on about the plastics, however. Computers are more nuanced; a modern car may have 70 computers, but it is exceptionally rare to have one go bad. I'd go further and venture that the majority that are diagnosed as bad are improper diagnoses. Turbos. I've had turbos back to the 1980s Audis that Tommy references and I find that they are 200,000-mile items or better. Transmissions on new cars have definitely gone downhill. Gone are the days of manual transmissions that might need a clutch every 180,000 miles if you were hard on them. There was a while when automatic transmissions started to have decent reliability (early 2000s - Chrysler excepted), but they are currently one of the more problematic parts of a new car, from the Nissan CVTs, to the Ford 10R80 and GM 8L90, just to single out a few. I'd agree with Kase that the most reliable generation of vehicles comes from the 1980s and 1990s, but time moves on and emissions/fuel economy from those turds is no longer acceptable. I am optimistic for the reliability of EVs which will hopefully get us out of our current transmission era.
There is a lot going on with new cars. Lots of tech that a lot of people enjoy, efficiency, emissions compliance, etc. But there is also planned obsolescence and cars being designed to only be repaired at the dealership which is a big issue for me.
Well this is an interesting topic I'm not sure about the other auto makers I currently work on Fords , what I would tell some one looking for a vehicle is do not go over 2015-2018! The reason is a big one, those are what I call pre technology anything after that you run the risk of having to replace computers and many modules require software programming, most would say that's not too bad but the sync system use to be around 40 minutes to update and your fine, but the new sync 4 system can take from 1 hour to 8 hours to fully update ( @185 / hr labor) but when go look at the new f150 with led headlights they are around 1800 each no labor! The explorer led headlamps are around 1500, mirrors are around 1200-1500a piece, the syc module is around 500-750 without labor it is true that the better trucks are lasting longer but they have one very big draw back the majority of the new vehicles are update the module/ program then and your ok with it, also after ten years the auto makers stop making modules like ipc,PCM,bcm of they are older then that the companies no longer support the module and only keep a 10-25% stock of how many vehicles are on the road! Id tell you anything from 2010-2018 are probably your best years to get and have it be modern and still be reliable but not cost an insane amount to get repaired. The only thing that most every one forgets to do and will not do is maintenance! Maintenance, maintenance of you do your coolant service, transmission service differential service, transfer case service, and tune up at the specified mileage interval out will last forever! Go look at the million mile tundra. My final thing is that even though fluids last longer they will still break down! Id say do your oil change around 5000 miles, tune up, coolant service, transmission, differential and transfer case service at 100,000 miles! If you do lots of towing reduce your mileage intervals by 50%.
The trade off for reliability is efficiency and power. An old 4.9 6 cylinder out of a ford pickup makes 4 cyl HP and gets v8 fuel economy, but lasts forever. The exact same thing could be said about the old 3.4 Toyota v6. Modern turbo 4 cylinders make old v8 HP and torque, and still manage excellent fuel economy when not driven hard, no chance something under that much pressure will last.
Great discussion. It's easy to confuse "reliability" (does the job when it is asked to do it) and "durability" (maximum lifetime for economic operation.) The Model T is durable but not reliable. Ford's 1 liter Ecoboost engine is reliable but not durable. Peak reliability and durability is 10 years off when solid state batteries for EVs are commercially viable.
Quality and reliable parts are critical when buying a new vehicle. Every piece has to look perfect and well made. Not only that how easy is it to maintain. The more complicated and clutter the vehicle are. The more problematic it is to maintain because no one would want to work on a vehicle that just made absolutey no sense with a terrible layout and emplementation of the parts. They rather drive it til they break down and toss it after 5 years or less versus maintaining it for the long run.
Why doesn't anyone talk about the EV being heaver and causing greater road wear? Pushing up road maintaince, and extra wear and tear on having a heaver SUV. Taxes are going by mileage now and will cost more because they are heaver. Also, you are lucky if you can find someone who will work on them locally.
This is such a complex issue to the point that I don't think there's a single clear answer to the question. There's certain things that are getting generally more reliable over time, but other things that offset that due to the addition of complexity and added computers and modules and wires and such. I'm sure the years Toby mentioned are the sweet spot between increased reliability of certain parts while pre-dating the addition of added complexity like safety and convenience features which offset those reliability gains (and cost cutting measures like switching to plastic parts from older metal versions). Something I just wanted to add to that is that when it comes to new cars (or any new product, actually), never get a first year model (or product). Anything that's brand new will inevitably have teething issues and new gremlins that pop up that will take a couple years to find and iron out. You can see from the Tundra problems that even Toyota is not immune to this rule. Any time there's a dramatic change to a model with all new sheetmetal or worse, new engines and powertrains, you should take a big step backwards and wait it out until they fix all those things no matter who makes it or how much you trust them.
That Mercedes 124 came with OM602 one of the first direct injection engines. It's known for it's reliability from thousands of taxis around the world. Taxi drivers do tend to take care a little better of their cars, then your average costumer and also there is the rumor that those taxis had a better build quality then the consumer product, but it's still an extremely sturdy engine which will give you almost the same experience as a new car, with the exception that you will be able to hear it. Which is a good thing for me. However, the wisest investment choice has always been to buy a two year old car and sell it before major issues come up. With modern cars I am not so sure about that. Emission and safety regulations have made engines and cars definitely more complex. Engines are not built to last any longer. (those BMW from last century where awful!) And if you ever tried to chase the error of a lambda sensor, you know that OBDII is not the answer to every question. Simplicity wins. On the other Hand many things improved in manufacturing, especially in the recent centuries. So if you change remanufactured parts, chances are good that the built quality is better nowadays then back then. I completely disagree on the EV front. I used to drive them from a car pool. Mainly ID3. Half of them were constantly being repaired. Think about it, from your experience, comparing electronics and mechanics, what is more prone to fail and how long from malfunction to complete brake down?
This all "depends". There are a lot of good practical reasons to buy a new car vs a used car. A older car vs a newer car design. It varies really. Pros For New: You break it in, you don't inherit anyone else's problems, and you get a better financing deal if you aren't buying it out of pocket on your own - used cars generally get higher rates as banks don't rely on them as a sound investment. Cons to New: IF its a new redesign or model...you may inherit its bad engineering issues and its basically untested in real world use, costs more MSRP wise. Pros for Used: lower MSRP, if buying from a certified dealership then you are hopefully getting solid warranty and any and all issues have been fixed, already broken in engine so no babying needed. Cons: Could have been poorly mistreated and issues are waiting, you are starting with mileage that will soon require major maintence (struts, shocks, transmission fluid changes etc) - so any savings is going to go towards that sooner than a new car where you have many years before such things are needed. As for buying a older generation of car, again it depends: A good engineered car is great and any buyer and seller knows this usually, while you can get them cheap, it depends on how diligent a person is in fixing and maintaining it - a good older car makes that a easy/cheaper situation great. But there are plenty of expensive and poorly engineered cars. A good older Toyota for example is a great buy, but a older gen Porsche or BMW is going to require higher costs to fix and maintan and headaches if that's not your thing to do, but they are nice cars if you want a performance or unique experience...it just comes with complications. And that's why these things vary. Its a matter of what make and model and year + how willing you are to compromise.
The problem is most people cant even change there own oil never mind work on an old Mercedes 300d. If you cant DIY then you better have deep pockets if you want to drive a 20 plus year old car.
Unless a person is rich and collects classics (ie, Jay Leno), ALL cars are a money pit that most people must have in order to get on with daily living. The trick is to be a little bit smart and a little bit lucky in choosing a vehicle. A model that, with regular maintenance, will keep on running well for 12-15 years.
I have a little Fiat Abarth and my best buddy has an automotive repair shop with a sign on the door saying We don’t work on Fiats😂. Even basic maintenance is a pain in the arse.
My view is barring normal maintenance cost (ie oil change/filter/tire etc) how much does it cost to repair. If we assume all 10yr old + 100K sedans cost 3-5k to purchase private seller, the big repair that comes up when you drive it other 20k miles down the road needs to not exceed that 3K mark. Otherwise, you would just be better off buying another hoopty at 90-100k and driving it another 20-30k miles down the road to the next big ticket and ditching it again. I was looking at an Silverado EV RST and the Lease payments were over 1k a month. So in our hoopty example, if we only drive 10k a year (which was in the lease spec contract) you could buy a new hoopty every two years and basically save 9k a year in the payment difference. I think the automakers may need to start adjusting the math on the front end, because even if I buy a hoopty and drop 20k into it, my overall cost to 75k miles driven is going to be cheaper with the hoopty (at 1k a month payment with assumed 10k miles a year, you would pay $120,000+ to get to 75k miles on the new car)
All of this nuance, how dare you, this is TH-cam! Kidding. Personally we're 2nd owner people, meaning we get our cars lightly used off lease, then trade out before it hits 100k while it still has some value in it. So outside of Italian/British vehicles we aren't too worried about it, although we do research on the particular vehicle beforehand and get a pre-purchase inspection as one always should.
Done buying new cars - don't need or want the nannies, DI, stop-start, adaptive cruise (it's a pain) turbos, multiple computers. I'll just keep what I've got (01 Tacoma, 08 Tundra, 11 ES350, 75 Firebird) and spend what it costs to keep them running - still way cheaper than the new stuff I don't want anyway. BTW, not a believer in brake fluid changes. Never been done on any of my Toyotas, and they are just fine.
Continue being an old grumpy dude in VERY unsafe vehicles. Any vehicle older than 2010 equals occupants die … good luck. Change is bad nothing whoever change 😂😂😂😂 your feelings are all that matter not facts… 😅
As always it Depends. If you need rock solid reliability for medium to long haul new is the best option. If you plan on owning a vehicle for four to five years and still need a high level of reliability, getting a car a year or two or three old (coming off a lease) is an interesting option. If it’s not your only car and you want max value - sure get a ten yr old low miler
MSRPs could drop by a significant amount if manufacturers made base models without all that technology/surveillance crap. It would have the benefit of being less complicated. Fewer things to break and fewer things to go wrong.
@@nipperdawg1865 All that technology/surveillance crap will be put to its intended purpose in approx. five-ten years. K*ll switch, mileage limits, distance from your house limits, and allowed days of the week to drive. It's all being put into place and will be activated when States pass laws mentioning all the things I listed. California will be the first to pass the laws of course.
My concern about newer vehicles is not reliability but rather the serviceability of the modern things added into them. For myself & many other average home mechanics & DIYers, these electrical & computerized components are just too complex without the aids of expensive & complicated scan tools. And oh yeah, too many plastics!
The Manufacturer knows EXACTLY what will break down and when. Today cars could be made to run forever but then the dealer network would go bankrupt. The maker specifically designs failure modes. This has just about always been the case. The Swedes were the only ones to design bulletproof cars but then they lost money over time.
Reliability can be measured and taken in so many ways. Just buy what you want and take care of it and 95% of the time it'll last plenty long. Not to say that there aren't better engines and vehicles than others, but none should totally crap out within 100K or more.
My 70's cars we always figured 70k was getting wore out, the new cars seem to be not much better. I like my gmt 800 and 400 now days, crappy mileage but great vehicles if you take care of them.
Best cars ever made were in the early 2000s. Before they started ruining them with safety crap I don't want or need. And before they started using can bus to operate features instead of wires.
Correction : It dose have a few computers. Moreover, their ANALOG0, ie: (a) centrifugal & vacuum ignition advance curve. (b) the fuel curve in the carburetor is analog, including the power valve/power piston.
The good thing about the old 60’s,70’s vehicles just keep a small roll of wire in the truck and a tester and if you break down you can usually fix it on the side of the road. My dad bought a new Ford truck in 1970 with a 302 in it and it had 420,000 miles on it before he did any work on the motor. He also had a 1974 Ford work truck also with a 302 that had 360,000 miles on it before engine was ever touched. That said he did change his oil,filters,grease all the time.
same here 3 ford work trucks, 1985 F150 4.9 4 speed 330000. no major repairs, 1993 F150 4.9 5 speed 444500 no major repairs, 2001 F 150 5.4 auto 345000 no major problems when i went to trade it on a new ram 1500 hemi they offered me $800 00 for it , i gave it to my son, he used it for years.
Perception versus reality seems to rule the roost in most cases. People perceive certain brands as more reliable than others without any sort of research/proof.
I started driving in the 1970s and then most domestic cars you did not expect reliability mainly as parts bought by manufacturers did not have that. Then the Japanese cars arrived the Japanese manufacturers would not put up with the reliability of 6-70 % they wanted 97% minimum and thats why domestic manufacturers lost out to te likes of Datsun, Honda and Toyota. There is NO good reason why cars that have parts at 97% reliability should be so bad except profit. I have a 1996 BMW 728 which has never had an ABS sensor so was surprised to see a 4 year old car in the shop havinf ABS sensors changed. When I asked the foreman why his answer was when your car was made BMW said to Bosch we need ABS sensors and Bosch said OK they will cost $40. Now nearly 30 years later BMW say to Bosch we need ABS sensors but they cant cost more than $15 that's why profits and costs are through the roof and the cars barely get through the lease period they are designed to not last
Take an engine from today remove plastics. Remove unnecessary electronics. The guts of it. Block, ,rods, pistons, crankshaft, cam, etc. The new car definitely outlasts the old. But they just keep adding new stuff. And the new stuff is costly and hard to fix. But in their defense that is what sells😢
As a mechanic also I don’t agree. It depends more on the model and how the owner takes care of it. Every manufacturer has their garbage and good products. I have 288k on my 2020 Civic and have concerns of if not lasting many more miles
How about talking about lack of fuel mileage, more pollution, parts not being made anymore, more injuries and deaths, lack of conveniences, and much more maintenance. If you think pre-2005 cars are the way to go, then go back to pre-2005 wages. And if you get rid of new cars, eventually there won't be any usee cars to drive.
New technology is not only here but IS never going away. You need to navigate the minefield with help from channels like TFL. We count on your honesty and your testing to give us guidance. There are great compromises with basic and tech combined. Dip your toe into the tech pool. 😂 Just don't dive into the deep end until you're sure your wallet knows how to swim. 🤑
I had a 2010 V6 AWD RAV4 I bought new in late Dec 2009 that I put 212k miles on with extremely few issues, nothing that ever stopped me. Sadly, I was hit from behind while stopped at a stoplight by a drunk (.22 BAC!!!) going 60+mph and it was totalled. So, I had to buy a new vehicle to replace it, and picked up a 2025 Honda CR-V EX (because nobody had any new RAV4's and the CR-V was rated a lot higher in recent tests). The CVT is taking some getting used to, but so far I really like it. When I bought the RAV4 it needed to be my daily driver, my offroad vehicle, and be able to tow (I bought the expensive Toyota tow package and receiver - for 3,500lbs). Now I have a 2024 Colorado ZR2 for offroading, towing (6,000lbs), and hauling, so, essentially the CR-V is just my daily driver and doesn't even have a hitch, and will never see anything but a mild dirt road. It rides really nice and is quiet, so, hopefully it will be as reliable.
History says it will. That's their bread and butter. Only thing I don't like is the turbo engine. I think the better option should be a hybrid. A rental gave me one and it was very soft and quiet. Not sure if the maintenance is higher or lower, but you can save that money on gas.
@@leos3003 The last Honda I owned was my very first new car, an '89 Civic Hatchback SI. LOVED that car, but it was nowhere near as reliable as the RAV4. Nothing that ever left me stranded, but I kept having to replace A/C condensers and CV joints. So, hopefully this Honda will be more reliable. But in case not, I and as I'm a mite sketched about the CVT (especially in the mountains as I have to rise 4,000ft in elevation to go to work over a 9,300ft pass), I bought the extended warranty. If anything fails, I pay $100, that's it.
Tangental Observation: Conspiracy theorist embrace conflicting concepts: "Cars are built to only last 100,000 miles" vs "Dealers only want to do the necessary maintenance to get a car to 100,000 miles."
Had a 12 year old Toyota RAV4 and the biggest problem was the deteriorating rubber and plastics in the engine that needed to be replaced. The costs added up but I kept it another four years. So even a Toyota will die at some point.
I will say better buy new than used. Due to the 10000 mile oil changes, 😅 never mind the break in oil... by the time the extended warranty goes them car's gonna be burning oil. Due to bad oil rings from not changing new oil by five thousand miles
I wish new cars had a lot less unnecessary electronics in them. That's one of the main reasons I'd stay away from getting a new vehicle. Sadly most people are easily swayed by it.
Toby is one of the smartest brightest honest mechanic I have seen on TH-cam. Bring more videos from this mechanic. He is telling the truth the way it is. This mechanic will call out all the corrupt manufacturers and the models they sell.
Reliability = how frequently a vehicle breakdown and how much it cost to repair. $$$$$ ???? How much it cost for maintenance?
He's an idiot. Go buy any Toyota Corolla, Camry or RAV4 or Highlander or Sienna and see for yourself that they will last WAY more than 100k miles, with as little as just oil changes. Millions of Toyotas in taxi all over the world casually going for 500k miles and more. This Toby is just playing dumb and exaggerating old stereotypes just for the show for the camera, because he knows he is on youtube. Unfortunately most mechanics nowadays are dumb. They don't used to make them mechanics like they used to in old days. Oh well, another idiot mechanic. Not the first one and not the last one.
No don't do that, nobody want's that. Bring somebody who knows all about the difference between square vs round buttons. Can explain to us the gold exhaust tips vs chrome. Who's an expert in the difference between the red and the blue version of the car. We want real content and none of that Toby sense.
@@leos3003😂😂 realized how dumb average folks are.
I had an 1974 Pontiac Ventura that I got 20 years and 623,000 miles out of it before someone ran a red light and totaled it. I used it at night to go to work and my wife used it during the day for kids. etc. I could do all the maintaince on it with help from a auto book. Now unless you have a $4000 or more computer to see what is wrong on a new car for get it. you used to be able to just get the part, now you have to buy the whole component at much more $$$$$.
I am a mechanic and fix wrecked vehicles. Newer vehicles are more complicated but old cars don't hold up very well in an accident. With all the distracted drivers on the road I would not want to put my family in a vehicle that is much older then 2010.
Occupant protection has taken massive leaps.
Old cars have a bunch of issues too.... even if they're lower miles. Hoses, rubber seals and plastic all can play havoc with older cars... fixing those issues aren't always simple endeavors. Another sad fact to consider is that parts for older cars are drying up (thanks Cash for Clunkers!) so while you might be driving a reliable deal of a hoopdie, it might get short-lived by lack of parts.
Agreed, it depends really. Like a 90s Toyota or Honda is miles ahead in being easy to work on, esp. if it was a well taken care of car, but if you buy a old used Fiat, porsche, mercedes.....that's just a nightmare to work on from costs and complexity...you have to be willing to take that on - most people aren't
Bingo. On top of expensive parts and labor
People use the money when they sell their old car for salvage to buy a newer car and salvage cars create MORE parts not less. Who told you that Cash for Clunkers was bad for the pool of used parts? The less cars running on the road the more parts will he available. Its COMMON SENSE.
@@jamesmedina2062no
What a cool video! Hats off to that mechanic, he knows his stuff! I’d like to see him on the show more often.
He is family to them
My 2003 VW Jetta TDI, Which I have owned since new, has over 410k miles on it. It is still my everyday driver and runs perfectly.
Thank you! That is exactly how you do it. Buy new and drive until wheel fall off. I still drive 2000 Ford Focus, bought brand new. I am sick of inheriting other people's negligence.
if your going to run a VW its gotta be a tdi! I loved my 2010 golf tdi and bought a mk4 jetta tdi and golf tdi, they were terrific cars.....my mk7 gti was a terrible car tho, constant problems.
I am old. Old enough to know the reliability of those late 1960s and 1970s cars and I did all my own maintenance at a frequency much shorter than recommended.
First you could do your own maintenance and the cost for parts was reasonable and available.
Second, things were going to fail at much much lower mileage than they do today.
Third, taking a cross country trip in a brand new car may or may not involve stops to repair issues.
Fourth, cars with manufacturing or engineering defects were your fault once the 1 year or 12k mile warranty was up.
Recalls were almost unheard of in that age.
Vehicles have become much more reliable, but they have more things to go wrong and more expensive for repairs.
You are absolutely right. People like this young mechanic are NOT old enough to have lived through dealing with a car from the 60s, 70s, 80s.
New car, while a pain in the ass to deal with at time due to space constraints, they are A LOT longer lasting with LESS maintenance. Amazing!
Computers do not go bad unless moisture gets in there, or a short happens.
This young man does NOT understand that planned obsolescence has been a thing since the inception of consumer products, i.e. long time ago. He is also wrong with the car only lasting 100K miles. They last 100K when people do NOT maintain them.
Most alternators and starters last well over 100K!
@@AgonxOC My favorite designs were the early 1970 prior to unleaded and cat converters. I have many times considered buying one of these vintage cars but my memory of the constant maintenence when relatively new, make me change my mind. I still have a strobe timing light and many of the necessary tools but I don't think I will ever use them again. It is hard to imagine new vehicles becoming classics as the plastics disintegrate over time and the constant redesign of parts and computer control of so much makes aftermarket supplies unrealistic.
I have a 2015 Honda civic ex 1.8L. I regularly keep up maintenance on it and outside of tires, brakes, fluids and a serpentine belt it's been super reliable!
Frankly I want a new vehicle for one reason only: So I am not inheriting someone elses lack of maintenance.
I don't want to buy a used car for nearly as much as a new one and find out that I am looking at thousands of dollars of repairs all because someone couldn't be bothered to at least vaguely follow the maintenance intervals.
I have played that game with every car I have thus owned and its not something I want to play if I don't have to.
I couldn't agree more, unless the car seller has all their maintenance receipts.
@@kenheaney4803 That's the key with buying a used car, the maintenance history. Finding an older car with the documented maintenance history at the right price can be difficult, but to me it is worth the effort. Another caveat is doing your research so you are able to identify what model from what years is known to be a reliable long lasting vehicle. A gen 2 Mini, even with a well documented service history, is still going to be a financial liability in repairs after 100k miles. A well maintained gen 1 Tundra or Sequoia will likely last 400k miles or more with a much lower financial cost in repairs.
Yep. "It's only money" to have a new car where YOU have made EVERY decision regarding maintenance, the way you drive, and everything else. Even "how someone might have stunk the holy crap" out of the interior. I DON'T WANT TO SAVE ONE PENNY by inheriting whatever stupid, ignorant decisions some prior owner has made with a vehicle.
@@benadams9037☝🏽 this
Yeah ....no thanks to someone else's 10k mile oil changes
Having driven many cars during the 1960s and 1970s within five years you had the need for new drum brakes at least once, tires a few times, a tune up about every year and a half, and undoubtedly rust in the rockers and fenders. Getting 100,000 miles was considered rare without major rebuilding of an engine/trans (in many cases but not all). And at times getting a carburetor just right was a pain in the ---! But they sure did ride nice. Then came the 1980s and they just got even worse from an engine and transmission topic. A car has to be pretty old to start to rust now, and this in the northeast. Tires, spark plugs and disc brakes last a very long time now, from the factory.
Great to see guys like Toby still doing it....and with integrity and honesty. A dying breed unfortunatly. Its becoming a world of Dealership vultures and corporate Greed at every turn.
I really enjoyed this video. I have a friend who has had a ranch for more than 50 years. He claims reliability goes away after 12-15 years. His reasoning is that that is when rubbers and plastics deteriorating to the point that they must be replaced. Once you start you are constantly chasing that rat and by the time you get it all done you would have better off replacing the vehicle than trying to save your old clunker. I think he’s got a great point!
I experienced this with my 100 series land cruiser.
I had this happen with my 91 Toyota truck. It was my dream car too
@@jesseflores9087 sucks man. Sorry to hear
Honda well over 15 years had a few and this wasn’t an issue
@@LegolasD it depends on wheee you live and if you leave cars outside to the elements. If you undercoat and store indoors then you get a longer life.
It should absolutely not cost $50K every five years to own a disposable car. It's a violation of both the consumer and the environment.
Depending on how old, older vehicles may be less complex and easier to work on. I live in the rust belt so used vehicles need to be checked for rust as well as were they maintained. New vehicles post pandemic are usually super expensive and may have recalls and general reliability seem lower to me. Glad my vehicle is a 2014 and hopefully I can keep it going for alot longer.
Everyone who says buy used, always talks about resale value. What if you 100% plan to keep your car until it essentially dies? Used cars come with unknown factors, such as not knowing how it was broken in or if someone kept up with the maintenance of the vehicle. Plus, think of this 40k to 60k, a used car will likely need brakes and rotors. 80k to 100k, a used car will likely need several new suspension items and brakes.
True for those buying from careless owners, especially unreliable and high TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) clunkers, such as Mercedes, Jaguar, Land Rover etc.
However, buying top Japanese cars from a diligent owner (but not a racing enthusiast!), who can prove that he changed the oil after the first 1000 miles and then each 5000 miles and every other consumables (like the transmission oil), thus eliminating the "unknown factors", makes a lot of financial sense.
Very rarely I buy new (like my Miata ND2 RF, bought with more than 15% off the MRSP), usually I buy Japanese naturally aspirated or hybrid cars: those about 5 years old I am looking for deals like below 50% MRSP, but in the last years I bought 2 almost new Japanese cars (used only few months, with only few thousand miles), with a discount bigger than 30% vs. the market price: a Lexus UX 250h F Sport and a Suzuki Jimny LCV (real 4x4). After a few years with zero issues (not even recalls), I am more than pleased that I can sell them for the same money I bought them (yes, less value because of the inflation), but they are the best (in both reliability and low TCO=Total Cost of Ownership), champions of their segments, thus I shall keep them for a few more years.
Buying used is far better!!! Just do the necessary verifications.
My first car was a 1977 Dodge Aspen. Electronic Ignition and Fuel Injection were huge innovations that made every car better. ABS Brakes were also a great safety advancement for wet/snow driving. In my current car I really appreciate the backup camera and blind spot alerts. I think the problem with current cars is not reliability, but the mindset by manufacturers that every system is an expensive module that gets replaced instead of being made repairable. I also own a car that has a Canbus network, Lin network and a Most network... troubleshooting becomes a nightmare and you need an network expert to diagnose problems.
Many young people get all nostalgic about old cars, but the reality was not as rosy. As recently as the early 1980s we used to have a party in the rare event of someone's odometer hitting 100-thousand kilometres and resetting to zero. It's kind of telling that not even the odometers were designed for more than 100k. And the cars used to break down regularly on the way to that mileage.
All true.
@@watchmanonthewall14 Except that most repairs to pre-80s cars could be done by a backyard mechanic, or yourself with the help of a maintenance manual, parts were a lot cheaper sometimes free at the local junkyard (hard to find those these days), heck a couple of teens could even swap out a motor. I took my 2017 Tucson to a local mechanic, and he couldn't help me, told me to take it to the dealership where they had the "expertise", and that was expensive.
@@vt1340 Ironically, many young techs cannot effectively work on some of the older cars, because they have been trained to use computers to diagnose problems. There were no computers in 60s and 70s cars, so mechanics relied on other means to make a diagnosis. It can go both ways, but I hear what you're saying.
2016 Mazda CX-5, I have put 204,000 miles nothing done to the engine and transmission except fluid & filter & spark plug changes. AC still blows cold with no ac recharges yet. One serpentine belt and tensioner replacement. Replaced the 12 volt battery twice, a set of brakes and rotors. And just put the third set of tires on. No fluid leaks and no oil burning so far. DI normally aspirated engine, no check engine lights, same mpgs since I've gotten the car, and no carbon cleanings done. Mazda along with many other manufacturers include an air oil separator from the factory that all CX-5s have. And never broken down
You only replaced the brake pads once in 200k miles? That's bs. You're full of crap.
@@admiralkrankandhismightyba158 A lot of animosity over the info on my brake pads. Believe what you want, one axle's brake pads and rotors were changed at 105,000 miles, and the other axle's brake pads and rotors were changed at 165,000 miles. Have a good day
@@danong9458 It's not animosity. It's just that bs is bs and should be called out. There are people who believe lies like that and think they can completely neglect a car because it's a foreign brand. It's asinine.
@@danong9458 A friend of mine drives a 2013 Mazda CX-7. He is amazed that his brakes never seem to wear out. So what you are saying rings true.
The best thing about old American trucks/SUVs is that you can get parts for vehicles as old as 1947 from a company like LMC Truck. They have all the bolts, washers, switches, seats, body panels etc. LMC Truck even make their own parts like bumpers and seats so you have more options and are not limited to factory production parts. I'm glad Toby said the same thing I've been trying to get across in the comments about direct injection and small displacement turbocharged engines in heavy mid-sized trucks. I don't have a problem with small displacement turbocharged engines in a car or SUV because it hauls people but doesn't need to tow or carry heavy cargo like a truck. Everything you do to make a truck more capable off-road like bigger tires, steel winch bumpers, etc, adds weight, and it puts more drag/stress on the drivetrain. A truck engine should not work hard when empty and when towing or heavily loaded it should have enough extra power to go up steep hills. Reliability is difficult to determine on vehicles because it depends if the vehicle was maintained properly or abused and neglected. Cars that sit in a garage and are not driven have problems because the engine needs to heat up to burn off water condensation and the parts need to move. When you were talking about some parts failing what you missed is that some parts on a vehicle are called "consumables" and are designed to fail because they are cheap and easy to replace and sometimes their destruction protects more expensive parts. A taxi cab can run for a million miles because the seals in the transmission become brittle from heat cycles. If your taxi runs for long periods of time the engine stays warm and the transmission seals and all the gaskets are under less stress. When a car sits all night it gets cold, you drive and it gets warm (expanding metal parts) then when you stop it cools ( metal contracts) putting stress on gaskets bolts, etc. Short drives of under 30 minutes can damage your engine because the engine doesn't get to operating temperature and water from condensation can't burn off unless you go for a long drive at least once a month. Everyone says electric cars are maintenance free but that's not true. Rich Rebuilds made a video called "Rats Killed My Tesla" and they show how you can't see behind the panels and rodents can get in there, make a nest and chew on the wiring.
I don't want to be dependent on some LMC truck private company that some dude runs. I'd rather buy Toyota and be done with all these clowns.
@@danguelph2676 I forgot that Toyota isn't a private company devoted to making a profit. I guess since the Toyota Corporation is a charity devoted to building top quality vehicles at cost, and refuse to make a profit, so they can pass savings on to the consumer your argument makes sense. There are a lot of different car manufacturers around the world and a lot of choices for consumers in each country. You spend your money on any brand of vehicle you want and I'll do the same.
2 things: 1st the bearings and pistons in diesels are made to last longer but in gasoline engines they may not be built as robustly and to spin to 7k RPM must be lighter. That lightness comes at a price. 2nd is that cooling defines longevity so a small engine pushing a heavy load could do very well but that engine would need to burn fuel the right way and run cool all throughout to last longer.
Of my current cars, the oldest is a 1936 and the youngest is a 2022. All of them will fire up and take you pretty much anywhere. The difference is the amount of maintenance it takes to keep them that way. The 1936 Chevy is all metal parts (except for the wood cab frame and floors) and easy and simple to work on. But with no oil filter, maintenance intervals are close together.
The 2002 BMW M5 is easy to maintain as well. But the plastic parts made at that time just plain disintegrate and the replacements are not cheap. Parts that wear out like shocks, brakes, high performance tires, etc are far more expensive on this car than my other cars.
My three Fords - 2000 Excursion, 2002 Lincoln Town Car, 2011 E350 Super duty Passenger Van have all been very robust but I did replace things like AC blend door actuators, air suspension module. ABS sensor but all of those parts were cheap and widely available. Plus since they all use the same oil and filter, I save money buying bulk 😂
My newest car is a Tesla Model 3 Performance - zero maintenance except for rotating the tires and keeping them inflated, filling the windshield washer reservoir, and replacing the wiper blades. Reliability is too early to tell but based on my brother’s 2014 Model S, it’s gonna be cheap to keep running.
I maintain all my cars myself so there’s that savings. I think you should just buy what you love because if you love what you drive, chances are high that you’ll take better care of it.
The question is really when the complexity curve crossed the maintenance curve... I figure about 1995 to 2005... somewhere in there, give or take 5 years either way...
The moment you needed a 2000.00 scan tool to do simple repairs is when you crossed that line.
Reliability of old versus new is a difficult discussion. The 70's and 80's vehicles would generally last 100k miles without major issues, but the problems were different and general maintenance was higher. They needed oil changes every 3k miles, routine tune ups every 30k miles, exhaust system replacements every couple of years and oil leaks and corrosion were common concerns. Now, those issues have all but been resolved, but when the electronic gremlins or costly driveline issues show up at higher mileage, the repair costs can quickly exceed the value of the vehicle. For those who can repair their own vehicles using minimum diagnostic equipment, older products will always have an appeal. The driving dynamics are so much different also - particularly going back 40-50 years. As an owner of a variety of vehicles across 40+ years, they are so much different. People love the old stuff, but they do not drive well - sloppy steering, mediocre brakes, poor handling, poor ride quality, squeaks and rattles and wind noise were all perfectly normal characteristics that customers would not accept in a modern vehicle. Yes, old cars have a design that can be very appealing, but there are several downsides as well. It's all a matter of perspective.
Actually they won’t. Most cars from that era had major oil burning and transmission slipping by 75k miles. Modern cars hold up much better to abuse. That being said I’d avoid late 2020 to early 2024 Covid cars and trucks.
Newer vehicles in this modern age is made up mostly of plastics and Styrofoam. They're not as durable and reliable as they were 40-50 years ago.
@@mrvang8077 Nope that's too olds it's 20-30 years that are the better cars
The data doesn’t back up what you are saying. 70-80s vehicles by the data were the least reliable. In fact 100,000 was considered end of life for 70s cars due to poor quality.
@@stevejohnson5837 a reason people believe older cars are better is that they are only thinking of the ones still on the road; they can’t see the millions more long since scrapped.
Well, back in the eighties I remember people saying not to buy a new vehicle due to all the emissions on the new vehicles.
Now days I would say, buy a new vehicle if you plan to drive it for a long time, not if you plan on trading it in every year.
Do your research, don’t buy a new vehicle that has lots of recalls or known major issues.
The less options on the vehicle, the less there is to go wrong later on.
Make sure that you can afford it first, call your insurance agent, find out the taxes and fees, how much to maintain the vehicle, oil changes, etc.
The mechanics opinion is about reliability, but a firefighter paramedic can tell you bigger and newer wins in a crash. Old cars are death traps.
And by old that means the 90’s. I work on vintage cars for a living and they wrinkle like tin cans. Whenever someone asks about buying a teen a car I say buy the absolute newest car you can easily afford
@@trahar6257 the misconception is that wrinkling like tin cans is bad. Crumple zones are designed to take up inertia from impact and not transfer it to your organs and spine etc. that’s why old vintage cars are THE most dangerous in an accident. The have no crumpling, all of the impact is taken straight to the human body, no seat belt pretension to suck you back and hold you, no shoulder belt to keep from whiplashing, no air bags to keep the steering wheel out of your chest. That being said yes I agree, the new cars are built stronger structurally and yet still wrinkle. The newest engineering is by design to be safer.
Even cars from the early 2000’s lack many major safety features you’d think people have come to want.
@@dudewalker3the vast majority of 90’s vehicles don’t even have passenger air bags.
@@SLHJR0390 exactly, bigger and newest wins.
My wife has a 2023 Toyota Venza and it has been garage kept since day 1. Oil changed every 4k miles. Hoping to keep it for 20 years.
Remember to change the battery filter, at the front of your rear seat at regular intervals
@@radhakrishnanvamanachari1255 how often would be good?
@@radhakrishnanvamanachari1255 ...and keep the blinker fluid topped off...
@@nickgrant42 check owners manual man, don't just trust idiots on youtube. That been said it's a good habit to check it once a year. It's very easy, and cheap.
I own an '06 Honda CR-V that I bought new 18 and 2/3 years ago. Still drives great. Mine has always been kept outdoors with no problems; in areas with hailstorms that would be an issue.
All the touch screens and digital displays are reasons enough to keep me away from buying a new car.
💯
These comments are getting old. Kind of like cars with no electronics 😂 you weren’t buying a new car anyway.
Oh why won't you drop your modern photo gear thena and use 1910's cameras huh? Oh for some reason digital display on camera is not good enough reason to do so huh? Yeah, that's what I thought. Bunch of hippocrites and idiots spreading old stereotypes.
@@danguelph2676 You seemed butt hurt. Did I say you can't like them?
Did you type this on a flip phone?
The main issue we have here in Ontario Canada is rust? The salt and brine dumped on the road pretty much makes it impossible to find a decent used car over 10 years old. I’m skeptical of used cars less than 5 years old, because those cars are often leased and driven hard by people that don’t do any preventative maintenance (such as under coating). They do the bare minimum maintenance, love them and leave them to be someone else’s problem. For the above reason I still buy new and at the very least get 4-5 years of warranty, peace of mind.
What's your opinion on older British Columbia cars as they claim to be the only province who do not use salt
No personal experience with out of province. At least they shouldn’t have the rust issue. If you can get all maintenance history… If your taking it to a salt/brine Province get it undercoated right away.
There are different ways to measure reliability. To 100k cars today are very reliable (aside from a few dogs which always exist). Beyond 100k is a mixed bag.
Your old cars will last forever but cars like your Jeep have probably been rebuilt multiple times. To an engineer of the day, that’s not a durability issue, it’s just a form of maintenance.
Engines today will last longer without needing that kind of work, but aren’t designed to be rebuilt. (By the time they need it, a rebuild cost more than the cars worth)
There’s more but you get the idea…
yes they are throw a ways
If your really old and remember the cars of the fifties and sixties you also remember that after three years it was definitely time to trade. Tires, battery, spark plugs, coolant and brakes worn out and probably replaced at least once in three years. If you lived in the “rust belt” fenders and rocker panels rusted along with muffler and exhaust pipes. Those “free muffler” shops were famous for “the mufflers free, but the pipes and clamps for the “free” muffler cost as much as the original exhaust system replacement two years ago.
Great video, guys. The key point when it comes to making your car last is maintenance. No car is perfect, and things do wear out over time and require replacement(belts, hoses, sensors), but if you don't keep up with your maintenance, you will ask for trouble later.
Thank you TFL for this educational segment. More like this !!
For me, buying new is for a few reasons: Full warranty, usually best deals and interest rates vs used, I know no one has abused the car yet, less paint issue risk. I see how most people (don’t) take care of their vehicles and don’t want to deal with that. I just new cars were required to have certain types of physical controls.
I would consider new cars if the cost wasnt so much more than a few years later model. Warranty is nice to have but its only as good as the dealership that honors it.
The depreciation hit new car buyers take is basically guaranteed sunk cost against the potential for high maintenance costs. That's a risk that used car buyers are willing to take. New car buyers are necessary to make used cars available for us. So 'round and'round we go...
@@zenfishbike agreed this is why when buying used cars, its best to go over common issues. And know what to look at during an inspection. If you are really concerned, you can bring a honest mechanic to look at it.
Big thanks to Case, Tommy, Andre and Toby for interesting review about reliable old and new cars. American cars were relatively affortable and some were known for high quality compared with European in the late 70thies. After my parents became sick I quit the school to be able to help them and started a company as an 16 year old kid in the mid 70thies, and after 4 years in 78 I was in the need for a better car and would like to try a an American car for my little company. Norway have always had high taxes on passenger cars, but registrated as work truck/vagon the cars at the time had much lower taxes. I didn't want a flashy one and bought the cheapest Chevy Blazer with RWD and straight six gas engine with 3 speed manual gearbox. This of course was my first new car, but together with Land Cruiser this is at the top of my quality list of all the cars I ever had after tens of cars in companies and for private use, and like the LC the Blazer held the value well when I re-sold it. I mostly was driving tha Blazer in direct (third) and only heard a kind low hum from the engine, nice. This car had body panels so strong that we didn't even get a scratch when a friend of mine backed into a tree, we just brushed off some bark on a nickel-plated strip, which of course was made of steel. Looking back the car companies mostly made simple and reliable cars in the 80thies, but we once we bought a completely disaster from a European brand made in Brazil. In the 90thies such as the old 900 series Volvo in our opinion was the most reliable but relatively costly, where completely new FWD 850 needed a couple of years and a smaller face lift, and of course the service by the dealers always have been importent. The last 20 years our experience with Toyota and Lexus is unique with the Land Cruiser and Lexus RX at the top of the list, where T/L were cold enough to hold back a little on some technology wayting for better reliability. They got some criticism for this with such as old looking screens, we understand this, but loved that we never had to replace anything, and "the lady" in our navigation still found the needed adress, where Toby gave an importent lesson; "We should rather have the eyes at the road than on some screens", of course he is right. Now Toyota and Lexus have 10 years warranty but we have newer had need for more than the importent normal maintanance. My wife now has a Lexus RZ 450e, and even why you are not found of the electric range a lot of people in reality have other driving pattern in Norway, and the combination of range and lighter weight is great for us. After I became disabled after a too high dose of vaccine we cannot drive more than max 3 hours on the best days before a stop if we rarely are driving a longer trip. And because we love some trips at old twisty and some more bumpy roads, we are happy with the lower weight compared with other bevs with the same comfort and interior space. A real break through for solid state batteries would might make bevs lighter and more reliable. Thanks and best wishes from Norwegian friends
I purchased my pick-up truck brand new at the start of 2020 & i have zero regrets.
I spent 6 months researching the truck I wanted for common problems and which dealership's were the best for servicing & honouring warranty claims. I then purchased my truck and have had it serviced at the same dealership since new.
The servicing is a little more exspensive, but the service advisor is upfront about any potential issues that will need attention in the near future and treats me like royalty (which is extremely these days)
My “classic” 2011 Elantra GLS port injected has almost 200k miles, change all the fluids before they are due and drive sensibly. Don’t forget the regular long highway drives too …
Old school 2024 4Runner the last of the most reliable dependable mid sized SUV in the world, buy one while you have time
Much prefer good old RAV4 Hybrid - the most reliable SUV bar none.
@@danguelph2676 : I don't have experience, but statistics say you'd be correct. Plus you'd save a few grand on gas and may be ins.
@@danguelph2676 small SUV yes mid sized is 4Runner 👍🏻
Thank you guys awesome video. How do you clean out that carbon? I have a direct injection V8 with 140, 000 miles and want to clean it. Any suggestions would be awesome thank you.
the walnut shell media blast thig
I would love to see you have a discussion with "The Motor Oil Geek". I have found his channel very informative.
Planned obsolescence so true manufacturers want you to come back sooner to purchase another one. The worst thing to come out past 15 years is extended oil change intervals just destroy engines with sludge.
They recommend 5k synthetic oil changes under more severe duty. This will not cause sludge or end the life of an engine early. Modern vehicles keep lasting longer despite increased complexity.
Planned obsolescence has always been there. Even in 1972. Everything is designed to an expected useful life. But now they can predict more precisely meaning they don't over build them. Most of the engine issues are caused by EPA regulations, not intended design. Meeting emissions is a priority over the rest or the vehicles cannot be sold. Back pedal the emissions and they'll get more reliable.
Right now 1st gen chevy cruze is a mechanics car, can find cheap import parts and it is generally easy to service parts because there is so much room in the engine bay.
Great video, as always! Where are you located?
Just get a 2010+ Toyota or Nissan 4.0. V6 with a 6 speed manual and you're good to go. Good driving dynamics, easy to work on, reliable as a wood burning stove, decent metallurgy and modern enough technology. That's the sweet spot.
I had 2 new compacts but never got past the 7 year mark, both were high milage (10000 or so) all running Maintenace was done at the dealership and yet the Maintenace skyrocketed after the 6 year mark . So imo you can get a good deal on a "used" car if it's a lease return that's less than 5 years old, otherwise its high risk.
Use case of one, but I have been lucky to keep my '03 Saturn Ion still running. It is a basic version (only option is A/C, which is now pretty much toast). I have test driven newer GM's, and am glad that I didn't buy one.
the Chevelle has '71 parking lights up front...'72 has no division
I feel like i need to nuance what i mean about not liking new vehicles. I want a new reliable powertrain. But i want that wrapped with manual locks, crank windows, 4x4 on the floor with neutral in the trasfer case, colum shifter, and all the power without multiple modes or traction control. Just need a radio with Bluetooth and manual gauges. I am cool with a back up camera those are nice. A bumper you can easily put a grill guard on since i sometimes have to use my pickup to push or hold things.
There’s a shortage of mechanics and parts and labor are at an all time high, along with used car interest rates … you can tell these guys are from Boulder, CO
The old Porsche 911 convertible wasn't used as an example of older vehicles thank God. That car corrupts the affordability data.
Ask Roman...😂😅😊
Still a badass car though...
In Australia, Hyndai/kia were doing unlimited mile warranties for a specific number of years operation, i forget if teh full 10 or less.
I remember the days when a hush would fall over a party when you happened to mention that you drove your 1970 Chevy 100,000 miles, so I don't 100% agree with Toby about reliability. He is spot on about the plastics, however. Computers are more nuanced; a modern car may have 70 computers, but it is exceptionally rare to have one go bad. I'd go further and venture that the majority that are diagnosed as bad are improper diagnoses.
Turbos. I've had turbos back to the 1980s Audis that Tommy references and I find that they are 200,000-mile items or better. Transmissions on new cars have definitely gone downhill. Gone are the days of manual transmissions that might need a clutch every 180,000 miles if you were hard on them. There was a while when automatic transmissions started to have decent reliability (early 2000s - Chrysler excepted), but they are currently one of the more problematic parts of a new car, from the Nissan CVTs, to the Ford 10R80 and GM 8L90, just to single out a few.
I'd agree with Kase that the most reliable generation of vehicles comes from the 1980s and 1990s, but time moves on and emissions/fuel economy from those turds is no longer acceptable. I am optimistic for the reliability of EVs which will hopefully get us out of our current transmission era.
maybe in 20 years
Most of the things he calls computers are just sensors. Sensors aren't computers. They're far simpler.
When I had one 1970s car approach 100k, all my friends came over and we had a celebration road trip to see it roll over.
These guys are good. Subscribed!
There is a lot going on with new cars. Lots of tech that a lot of people enjoy, efficiency, emissions compliance, etc. But there is also planned obsolescence and cars being designed to only be repaired at the dealership which is a big issue for me.
Well this is an interesting topic I'm not sure about the other auto makers I currently work on Fords , what I would tell some one looking for a vehicle is do not go over 2015-2018! The reason is a big one, those are what I call pre technology anything after that you run the risk of having to replace computers and many modules require software programming, most would say that's not too bad but the sync system use to be around 40 minutes to update and your fine, but the new sync 4 system can take from 1 hour to 8 hours to fully update ( @185 / hr labor) but when go look at the new f150 with led headlights they are around 1800 each no labor! The explorer led headlamps are around 1500, mirrors are around 1200-1500a piece, the syc module is around 500-750 without labor it is true that the better trucks are lasting longer but they have one very big draw back the majority of the new vehicles are update the module/ program then and your ok with it, also after ten years the auto makers stop making modules like ipc,PCM,bcm of they are older then that the companies no longer support the module and only keep a 10-25% stock of how many vehicles are on the road! Id tell you anything from 2010-2018 are probably your best years to get and have it be modern and still be reliable but not cost an insane amount to get repaired. The only thing that most every one forgets to do and will not do is maintenance! Maintenance, maintenance of you do your coolant service, transmission service differential service, transfer case service, and tune up at the specified mileage interval out will last forever! Go look at the million mile tundra. My final thing is that even though fluids last longer they will still break down! Id say do your oil change around 5000 miles, tune up, coolant service, transmission, differential and transfer case service at 100,000 miles! If you do lots of towing reduce your mileage intervals by 50%.
dont forget the windshields with all the tech in them, can cost up to $6000.00 to replace, im not impressed with all the bs in new cars.
Great points, great mechanic, great podcast!
The trade off for reliability is efficiency and power. An old 4.9 6 cylinder out of a ford pickup makes 4 cyl HP and gets v8 fuel economy, but lasts forever. The exact same thing could be said about the old 3.4 Toyota v6. Modern turbo 4 cylinders make old v8 HP and torque, and still manage excellent fuel economy when not driven hard, no chance something under that much pressure will last.
Great discussion. It's easy to confuse "reliability" (does the job when it is asked to do it) and "durability" (maximum lifetime for economic operation.) The Model T is durable but not reliable. Ford's 1 liter Ecoboost engine is reliable but not durable. Peak reliability and durability is 10 years off when solid state batteries for EVs are commercially viable.
Quality and reliable parts are critical when buying a new vehicle. Every piece has to look perfect and well made. Not only that how easy is it to maintain. The more complicated and clutter the vehicle are. The more problematic it is to maintain because no one would want to work on a vehicle that just made absolutey no sense with a terrible layout and emplementation of the parts. They rather drive it til they break down and toss it after 5 years or less versus maintaining it for the long run.
Anybody remember those 80's Chrysler 2.2/ 2.5L turbos that the put on the Daytona, Sundance/ Shadow, LeBaron GTS, etc?
Why doesn't anyone talk about the EV being heaver and causing greater road wear? Pushing up road maintaince, and extra wear and tear on having a heaver SUV. Taxes are going by mileage now and will cost more because they are heaver. Also, you are lucky if you can find someone who will work on them locally.
Because road damage is caused by big trucks, not cars.
Science says otherwise. More heavier cars means more wear in a shorter amount of time. It is called friction wear or contact simplistic conjuction.
Nobody means 1970’s vs 2024 we are all talking like Toby said early to mid 2000’s vs 2020’s
This is such a complex issue to the point that I don't think there's a single clear answer to the question. There's certain things that are getting generally more reliable over time, but other things that offset that due to the addition of complexity and added computers and modules and wires and such. I'm sure the years Toby mentioned are the sweet spot between increased reliability of certain parts while pre-dating the addition of added complexity like safety and convenience features which offset those reliability gains (and cost cutting measures like switching to plastic parts from older metal versions). Something I just wanted to add to that is that when it comes to new cars (or any new product, actually), never get a first year model (or product). Anything that's brand new will inevitably have teething issues and new gremlins that pop up that will take a couple years to find and iron out. You can see from the Tundra problems that even Toyota is not immune to this rule. Any time there's a dramatic change to a model with all new sheetmetal or worse, new engines and powertrains, you should take a big step backwards and wait it out until they fix all those things no matter who makes it or how much you trust them.
Awesome having Toby on there. Vehicle's now are getting too over engineered.
Yeah keep repeating old stereotype bud. You are doing gods work, helping the community. Kep spreading that BS. Way to go bud.
It’s like you didn’t listen to the man… sigh.
That Mercedes 124 came with OM602 one of the first direct injection engines. It's known for it's reliability from thousands of taxis around the world. Taxi drivers do tend to take care a little better of their cars, then your average costumer and also there is the rumor that those taxis had a better build quality then the consumer product, but it's still an extremely sturdy engine which will give you almost the same experience as a new car, with the exception that you will be able to hear it. Which is a good thing for me. However, the wisest investment choice has always been to buy a two year old car and sell it before major issues come up. With modern cars I am not so sure about that. Emission and safety regulations have made engines and cars definitely more complex. Engines are not built to last any longer. (those BMW from last century where awful!) And if you ever tried to chase the error of a lambda sensor, you know that OBDII is not the answer to every question. Simplicity wins. On the other Hand many things improved in manufacturing, especially in the recent centuries. So if you change remanufactured parts, chances are good that the built quality is better nowadays then back then. I completely disagree on the EV front. I used to drive them from a car pool. Mainly ID3. Half of them were constantly being repaired. Think about it, from your experience, comparing electronics and mechanics, what is more prone to fail and how long from malfunction to complete brake down?
This all "depends". There are a lot of good practical reasons to buy a new car vs a used car. A older car vs a newer car design. It varies really. Pros For New: You break it in, you don't inherit anyone else's problems, and you get a better financing deal if you aren't buying it out of pocket on your own - used cars generally get higher rates as banks don't rely on them as a sound investment. Cons to New: IF its a new redesign or model...you may inherit its bad engineering issues and its basically untested in real world use, costs more MSRP wise. Pros for Used: lower MSRP, if buying from a certified dealership then you are hopefully getting solid warranty and any and all issues have been fixed, already broken in engine so no babying needed. Cons: Could have been poorly mistreated and issues are waiting, you are starting with mileage that will soon require major maintence (struts, shocks, transmission fluid changes etc) - so any savings is going to go towards that sooner than a new car where you have many years before such things are needed.
As for buying a older generation of car, again it depends: A good engineered car is great and any buyer and seller knows this usually, while you can get them cheap, it depends on how diligent a person is in fixing and maintaining it - a good older car makes that a easy/cheaper situation great. But there are plenty of expensive and poorly engineered cars. A good older Toyota for example is a great buy, but a older gen Porsche or BMW is going to require higher costs to fix and maintan and headaches if that's not your thing to do, but they are nice cars if you want a performance or unique experience...it just comes with complications. And that's why these things vary. Its a matter of what make and model and year + how willing you are to compromise.
The problem is most people cant even change there own oil never mind work on an old Mercedes 300d. If you cant DIY then you better have deep pockets if you want to drive a 20 plus year old car.
Unless a person is rich and collects classics (ie, Jay Leno), ALL cars are a money pit that most people must have in order to get on with daily living. The trick is to be a little bit smart and a little bit lucky in choosing a vehicle. A model that, with regular maintenance, will keep on running well for 12-15 years.
I have a little Fiat Abarth and my best buddy has an automotive repair shop with a sign on the door saying We don’t work on Fiats😂. Even basic maintenance is a pain in the arse.
My view is barring normal maintenance cost (ie oil change/filter/tire etc) how much does it cost to repair. If we assume all 10yr old + 100K sedans cost 3-5k to purchase private seller, the big repair that comes up when you drive it other 20k miles down the road needs to not exceed that 3K mark. Otherwise, you would just be better off buying another hoopty at 90-100k and driving it another 20-30k miles down the road to the next big ticket and ditching it again. I was looking at an Silverado EV RST and the Lease payments were over 1k a month. So in our hoopty example, if we only drive 10k a year (which was in the lease spec contract) you could buy a new hoopty every two years and basically save 9k a year in the payment difference. I think the automakers may need to start adjusting the math on the front end, because even if I buy a hoopty and drop 20k into it, my overall cost to 75k miles driven is going to be cheaper with the hoopty (at 1k a month payment with assumed 10k miles a year, you would pay $120,000+ to get to 75k miles on the new car)
People need to understand that the drive-away price is less than the list price in most locations…
Great discussion.
All of this nuance, how dare you, this is TH-cam! Kidding.
Personally we're 2nd owner people, meaning we get our cars lightly used off lease, then trade out before it hits 100k while it still has some value in it. So outside of Italian/British vehicles we aren't too worried about it, although we do research on the particular vehicle beforehand and get a pre-purchase inspection as one always should.
Done buying new cars - don't need or want the nannies, DI, stop-start, adaptive cruise (it's a pain) turbos, multiple computers. I'll just keep what I've got (01 Tacoma, 08 Tundra, 11 ES350, 75 Firebird) and spend what it costs to keep them running - still way cheaper than the new stuff I don't want anyway. BTW, not a believer in brake fluid changes. Never been done on any of my Toyotas, and they are just fine.
Continue being an old grumpy dude in VERY unsafe vehicles. Any vehicle older than 2010 equals occupants die … good luck. Change is bad nothing whoever change 😂😂😂😂 your feelings are all that matter not facts… 😅
Some decor wouldn’t go astray for the podcast studio
As always it Depends.
If you need rock solid reliability for medium to long haul new is the best option.
If you plan on owning a vehicle for four to five years and still need a high level of reliability, getting a car a year or two or three old (coming off a lease) is an interesting option.
If it’s not your only car and you want max value - sure get a ten yr old low miler
MSRPs could drop by a significant amount if manufacturers made base models without all that technology/surveillance crap. It would have the benefit of being less complicated. Fewer things to break and fewer things to go wrong.
But profits
@@nipperdawg1865 All that technology/surveillance crap will be put to its intended purpose in approx. five-ten years. K*ll switch, mileage limits, distance from your house limits, and allowed days of the week to drive. It's all being put into place and will be activated when States pass laws mentioning all the things I listed. California will be the first to pass the laws of course.
My concern about newer vehicles is not reliability but rather the serviceability of the modern things added into them. For myself & many other average home mechanics & DIYers, these electrical & computerized components are just too complex without the aids of expensive & complicated scan tools.
And oh yeah, too many plastics!
The Manufacturer knows EXACTLY what will break down and when. Today cars could be made to run forever but then the dealer network would go bankrupt. The maker specifically designs failure modes. This has just about always been the case. The Swedes were the only ones to design bulletproof cars but then they lost money over time.
Reliability can be measured and taken in so many ways. Just buy what you want and take care of it and 95% of the time it'll last plenty long. Not to say that there aren't better engines and vehicles than others, but none should totally crap out within 100K or more.
Try to get new modules for a 10yo car. Some modules run the car so it has zero reliability if its not running.
My 70's cars we always figured 70k was getting wore out, the new cars seem to be not much better. I like my gmt 800 and 400 now days, crappy mileage but great vehicles if you take care of them.
Best cars ever made were in the early 2000s. Before they started ruining them with safety crap I don't want or need. And before they started using can bus to operate features instead of wires.
This is generally the feeling I get from new vehicles, to many bells and whistles.
Correction : It dose have a few computers.
Moreover, their ANALOG0,
ie: (a) centrifugal & vacuum ignition advance curve. (b) the fuel curve in the carburetor is analog, including the power valve/power piston.
The good thing about the old 60’s,70’s vehicles just keep a small roll of wire in the truck and a tester and if you break down you can usually fix it on the side of the road. My dad bought a new Ford truck in 1970 with a 302 in it and it had 420,000 miles on it before he did any work on the motor. He also had a 1974 Ford work truck also with a 302 that had 360,000 miles on it before engine was ever touched. That said he did change his oil,filters,grease all the time.
same here 3 ford work trucks, 1985 F150 4.9 4 speed 330000. no major repairs, 1993 F150 4.9 5 speed 444500 no major repairs, 2001 F 150 5.4 auto 345000 no major problems when i went to trade it on a new ram 1500 hemi they offered me $800 00 for it , i gave it to my son, he used it for years.
Perception versus reality seems to rule the roost in most cases. People perceive certain brands as more reliable than others without any sort of research/proof.
some good Lexus RX around 2010 though , many good cards build after 2005
I started driving in the 1970s and then most domestic cars you did not expect reliability mainly as parts bought by manufacturers did not have that. Then the Japanese cars arrived the Japanese manufacturers would not put up with the reliability of 6-70 % they wanted 97% minimum and thats why domestic manufacturers lost out to te likes of Datsun, Honda and Toyota. There is NO good reason why cars that have parts at 97% reliability should be so bad except profit. I have a 1996 BMW 728 which has never had an ABS sensor so was surprised to see a 4 year old car in the shop havinf ABS sensors changed. When I asked the foreman why his answer was when your car was made BMW said to Bosch we need ABS sensors and Bosch said OK they will cost $40. Now nearly 30 years later BMW say to Bosch we need ABS sensors but they cant cost more than $15 that's why profits and costs are through the roof and the cars barely get through the lease period they are designed to not last
Take an engine from today remove plastics. Remove unnecessary electronics. The guts of it. Block, ,rods, pistons, crankshaft, cam, etc. The new car definitely outlasts the old. But they just keep adding new stuff. And the new stuff is costly and hard to fix. But in their defense that is what sells😢
Problem with buying used vs new.... Most of the time its so much easier to get financed for a new one....
It's easier to get cheaper financing, but not necessarily easier to get approved.
I had a dream last night Chevy came out with a rear mid engine economy car that was a 2 door sleek hatch and was 20k starting
Trust the computer when it says to change it early but never change it late
As a mechanic also I don’t agree. It depends more on the model and how the owner takes care of it. Every manufacturer has their garbage and good products. I have 288k on my 2020 Civic and have concerns of if not lasting many more miles
Kase reeeally love that Cummins truck of his, haha!! 😄 Wonder if he would ever sell it?
How about talking about lack of fuel mileage, more pollution, parts not being made anymore, more injuries and deaths, lack of conveniences, and much more maintenance. If you think pre-2005 cars are the way to go, then go back to pre-2005 wages. And if you get rid of new cars, eventually there won't be any usee cars to drive.
New technology is not only here but IS never going away. You need to navigate the minefield with help from channels like TFL. We count on your honesty and your testing to give us guidance. There are great compromises with basic and tech combined. Dip your toe into the tech pool. 😂 Just don't dive into the deep end until you're sure your wallet knows how to swim. 🤑
Used cars in todays market probably dont have the best maintenance record.
I had a 2010 V6 AWD RAV4 I bought new in late Dec 2009 that I put 212k miles on with extremely few issues, nothing that ever stopped me. Sadly, I was hit from behind while stopped at a stoplight by a drunk (.22 BAC!!!) going 60+mph and it was totalled. So, I had to buy a new vehicle to replace it, and picked up a 2025 Honda CR-V EX (because nobody had any new RAV4's and the CR-V was rated a lot higher in recent tests). The CVT is taking some getting used to, but so far I really like it. When I bought the RAV4 it needed to be my daily driver, my offroad vehicle, and be able to tow (I bought the expensive Toyota tow package and receiver - for 3,500lbs). Now I have a 2024 Colorado ZR2 for offroading, towing (6,000lbs), and hauling, so, essentially the CR-V is just my daily driver and doesn't even have a hitch, and will never see anything but a mild dirt road. It rides really nice and is quiet, so, hopefully it will be as reliable.
History says it will. That's their bread and butter. Only thing I don't like is the turbo engine. I think the better option should be a hybrid. A rental gave me one and it was very soft and quiet. Not sure if the maintenance is higher or lower, but you can save that money on gas.
@@leos3003 The last Honda I owned was my very first new car, an '89 Civic Hatchback SI. LOVED that car, but it was nowhere near as reliable as the RAV4. Nothing that ever left me stranded, but I kept having to replace A/C condensers and CV joints. So, hopefully this Honda will be more reliable. But in case not, I and as I'm a mite sketched about the CVT (especially in the mountains as I have to rise 4,000ft in elevation to go to work over a 9,300ft pass), I bought the extended warranty. If anything fails, I pay $100, that's it.
Is that the Chevelle from the Billy Strings album?
Tangental Observation: Conspiracy theorist embrace conflicting concepts: "Cars are built to only last 100,000 miles" vs "Dealers only want to do the necessary maintenance to get a car to 100,000 miles."
Had a 12 year old Toyota RAV4 and the biggest problem was the deteriorating rubber and plastics in the engine that needed to be replaced. The costs added up but I kept it another four years. So even a Toyota will die at some point.
Yes had an older Toyota pickup had to replace vac lines and hoses very brittle. But any older vehicle needs new parts
That's what a couple hundred bucks of rubber. That's nothing lol
I will say better buy new than used. Due to the 10000 mile oil changes, 😅 never mind the break in oil... by the time the extended warranty goes them car's gonna be burning oil. Due to bad oil rings from not changing new oil by five thousand miles
I wish new cars had a lot less unnecessary electronics in them. That's one of the main reasons I'd stay away from getting a new vehicle. Sadly most people are easily swayed by it.