Fantastic video with great analysis of feats over the series. Although I added my own opinion in a separate comment, I think your points are very valid and things could always flip in anyone's favor in the Naruto verse. Many battles could be contested in favor of the other despite the results in the series. Love the video. Please keep doing more. These are always such a great watch!!!
I agree with most of the video. I do believe with Itachi's higher battle IQ he would probably win the V.S. battle where they're more relative to each other. But I agree with everything else; the war arc feats are absolutely insane. I'd say Bee V.S. Kisame, Minato V.S. 3rd Raikage and Kakashi V.S. Guy would be interesting and great Versus battles.
@sageofthickcalves oh man haha we'll have to disagree on that one, but maybe it's because Kakashi is my 3rd favorite character after Minato and Itachi but they're both certainly 2 of the smartest characters in these series. And sweet! Looking forward to the next Versus battles 👊🏾
I’m a Kakashi fan, and a huge one at that, but narratively Itachi was always portrayed and depicted as someone superior to Kakashi. It’s a pain but if you have to go to great lengths in order to make a case for Kakashi, then you have a clear answer. I blame Kishimoto. That’s just my two cents.
💯 the lore is clear that itachi is the superior shinobi for the majority of their respected careers. When kakashi tells kid naruto that in the ninja world, there are shinobi who are younger than naruto but stronger than himself, a perfect example of this would be itachi, who at the age of 13, was an anbu captain and a member of akatsuki I think the main reasons can't grasp this is because of how passive and pacifist his demeanor is, as well as him having interior motives and concern for konoha and its assests(shinobi). But whenever we've seen itachi serious, he dogs on his opponent; orochimaru and deidara being an example of this. And in neither case did itachi even allow them to use their higher tier moveset', and he checkmates both with the most minimal output ofbeffort on his part. The guy is subtly lethal beyond the surface every time.
I agree that throughout most of the story we see this is the case. However, there’s no argument for Itachi winning against War Arc Kakashi or beyond, and there’s no argument for him beating kid Kakashi without MS. The narrative is one thing, but the feats speak for themselves.
@sageofthickcalves the feats speak, and have always spoken, against your case. You're just misrepresenting them to fit your false and skewed narrative. What's worse of all is that I don't think you're a troll, I think you really believe your own fantasy 😂 kakatard through and through
To be honest if Kakashi was tagged immediately by the Deva path I’m not confident he wouldn’t also be tagged immediately by the totsuka blade once the Susanoo does come out. Also nobody can control the nine tails because it’s now bound by an eight sign seal inside Naruto, that’s why Edo Madara attempting to summon it makes Naruto feel pain but otherwise doesn’t work. I’m not even sure if sharingan genjutsu scaling with Bijuu is even easily quantifiable since tailed beasts are stated to be slaves for Uchiha with great visual prowess and even BoS Sasuke suppressed Kurama’s power inside Naruto’s inner world.
Well there are three problems here. First, Kakashi didn’t really get “tagged” by the Deva path. He attempted to trap him and get him with the raikiri twice and was hit with shinra tensei. So it wasn’t like the Deva path physically blitzed him or something. Second, there’s no way to scale the Totsuka Blade’s speed above the speed or reaction time of Pain’s shinra tensei, so that carries over to Kakashi’s physical and reaction speed as well. Third, regardless of the seal, Itachi himself believed that nobody could control the nine tails without MS. Sure, Sasuke could suppress half the nine tails while it’s already being suppressed by Naruto’s seal, but the FULL nine tails is a different story. So the fact that Obito was able to control Kurama with his base sharingan still creates a situation where he has arguably superior genjutsu to Itachi.
@sageofthickcalves obito didn't take full control of the kyuubi via base sharingan(alone) unless and only in combination with senju cells amping his sharingan. Either that or he indeed did use the mangekyou but it wasn't drawn in for obvious reasons. It's canon that one needs to MS to control the kyuubi; the only reason obito's wasn't shown is because it would've been a huge spoiler to show his mangekyou design at that point in the story. You need to learn the concept of meta behind fiction and use that as a foundation to reach the most plausible conclusions instead of taking particular details, then separating them from context, and finally run marathons with them 😂
@@st.statenel4088 his version of pain arc kakashi should be sniping headshots left and right by warping opponent's heads clean off via kamui. Yet this op-ness has never been shown. Kamui isn't the instant win sage believes it to be.
Gotta say the Pain arc versions goes much more to Itachi tho That Kakashi should be somewhat inferior to Hebi Sasuke or just on par with his base form, and Itachi could have won that fight very easily indeed, still Kakashi has a chance to kamui him but Itachi scales higher and has a lot of things in his sleeve In the war arc I think Edo Itachi scales higher than Kakashi, but in this time it definitely can be a straight kamui gg this arc Kakashi really is so fucking OP
Thank you! I see your channel is growing steady so just wanna say congratulations bro 🙏🏼 We’ll get a collab in down the line for sure. Rn just getting this content for this month and January knocked out
I do have some disagreement. It seems like things were bended to make aloe of their interaction appear more close to make the argument fit kakashi. 1. I can’t offer much on kid vs kid because it’s true that kakashi’s feats are better although I simply feel sharigan to sharigan as kids that Itachi would take that. Reacting to lighting was a more common feat in naruto that one may not think. A blind and half dead Itachi reacted to Kirin. 2. You make their part 1 encounter seem like Itachi HAD to use MS or was fighting seriously with kakashi. Let’s just assume he was for arguments sake even though he was not really trying to fight kakashi, what in their encounter leads anyone to believe kakashi was forcing Itachi to use MS? It seemed like Itachi was toying with him and showed him tsukyomi to “drive home how much more powerful I am” even kakashi noted Itachi could have killed him if he wanted. That encounter was a stomp. 3. The interaction with the 30% clone cannot really be scaled. You can say kakashi had measures against itachi’s genjutsu when his method was used on a CLONE that only had 30% of itachi’s power. That encounter in my opinion only drove home their power difference because Itachi was still leading the fight at only 30% of his power. 4. It was a major stretch and falsity to state pain arc kakashi ties with Itachi during his arc with sasuke. Kakashi was still sloppy with his Kamui and it’s too unclear on Kamui vs yata mirror. Other than unclear Kamui, kakashi has NO measures against Itachi here. 5. War arc vs edo again was too one sided. Kamui is the only answer? You think he could snipe all of Itachi in one go? I could just as easily say the totsuka blade GG’s kakashi but that would be too one sided. In all honesty kakashi doesn’t start winning against Itachi until DMS in my opinion.
A lot of advantages put on kakashi. Even the age he put kakashi were 9 years old when he get sharingan is unlogical at all. Like both obito and kakashi should be the same age. And obito body crushed happens at 12-13
Mmmm I have some disagreements with some of your points 1. How is reacting to lightning a “common” thing in Naruto especially part 1? Common is an overstatement imo but it’s definitely not unheard of. Regardless, kakashi tagging lightning is still impressive. 2. You’re leaving out a lot of context. Itachi definitely HAD to use MS to end the fight quickly as Kakashi literally countered everything itachi did up to that point. He countered Itachi’s water fang with a water wall and set up a clone as a decoy to itachi’s exploding clone. He only got tagged because he saved Kurenai. Itachi realizes it’ll take too long to do this with Kakashi and he already stated he didn’t want to “start a war” and he wanted to end things quickly before reinforcements came, this was the way to end it quickly. Itachi didn’t kill kakashi because he wanted to know how kakashi knew about the akatsuki I think chapter 260 or 262 you see the interaction. So yeah, kakashi did technically force him to use MS however if he wasn’t trying to end it quickly he could still possibly win 3. Eh I don’t disagree with this but it is worth noting that Kakashi wasn’t rusty and was confident he could fight itachi. Kakashi isn’t one to overestimate himself and he also doesn’t underestimate opponents especially someone like Itachi. It was a 30% clone, but saying itachi lead that fight is wild. Maybe against Naruto, but kakashi again countered itachi (his clone) . 4. Sloppy with Kamui lol? He was much better and was able to accurately Kamui rockets to save Choji and a nail aimed towards his head shot off by pain. Kakashi keeping up with Pain even for a slight bit is impressive enough to place him against SICK itachi. He already was able to counter a younger healthier itachi in part 1 while being rusty himself. What could a sick itachi who rolls over dying after one suppressed tsukuyomi gonna do against a stronger kakashi who has more experience against Itachi’s techniques? Kakashi wipes
@@QGUU you are mistaken in your answer. Itachi was not forced to use MS. Kakashi even stated when hadn’t seen his full power and that Itachi was playing around. The reason he didn’t kill kakashi was him being a double agent. If Itachi was serious he could have ended kakashi without using MS in that battle granted it would have took longer. Kakashi only countered a 30% clone. That’s not an achievement and you cannot derive anything of note for kakashi in that fight. Kakashi may not overestimate but he will charge into battle against those way stronger than him I.E. his first confrontation with orochimaru. Yes kakashi was still sloppy and he only had a good three attempts at it before depleting his chakra. I doubt any of those three attempts could get past the yata mirror. It’s heavily implied obito used izanagi after hit with itachi’s trap. Itachi would recognize immediately that kakashi’s technique was just a variant of obito’s. Itachi casually slaps war arc kakashi.
I think it was established by Itachi himself that Kakashi faced his hand into him having to use the MS. Also, Kakashi was sloppy with Kamui In the Pain arc? Tagging rockets and a tiny nail launched by Almighty Push mid-flight is sloppy? And you don't think he could beat Edo Itachi with Kamui? He was literally about to snipe the head off of the Gedo statue, I feel like he could snipe Itachi's whole body. And even if he doesn't get it all in one go, he was low-key spamming Kamui in the war arc. What's stopping him from just playing cleanup while Itachi reforms himself?
Wish we could’ve actually seen them fight. We have to remember though we find this out as the story progressed Itachi had no intentions on killing anybody or really any motive for being in the Leaf but to check on Sasuke but by doing that he also had to stay undercover. Itachi knowing who Kakashi is(even tho this is a weaker version of Kakashi than the one he knew) knew that a fight with him and the other jonin would be long and drawn out which completely goes against his reasoning for being there. That being the case Itachi had to make it seem like he wanted to kill kakashi while also not doing it because he didn’t want to blow his cover… he needed his most potent technique to do so and that has always exaggerated the gap between those 2 imo.
Hey nice video. But 19:46 in the light novel it's stated that kakashi posseses sealing techniques and also defeated a user possessing either s06p chakra or weapon I'm pretty sure kakash takes the win
Thanks for the love! Just one correction, though. It’s never stated that he has new sealing jutsu in the novels. I do think it’s reasonable to assume he has powerful sealing, but it’s never actually stated, unfortunately.
Truthfully? What you do is hard af. Especially for characters like these two. Mainly because Kishi uses them to progress the plot therefore their on screen match ups with anyone has very defined shakles. Example: team mates to protect. Plot to protect, their own secret not so secret objectives. Illness. Chakra reserve. Mental state. Kakashi is a character that was made to be an almost direct mirror to the main characters but is NOT the MC. his purpose for the story is to set the base expectations and to guide the MCs. And to make them shine more. Kishi is so damn lucky with this because Kakashi even when not given much satisfying fights remains to be compeling and is very well loved by the fandom Itachi on the otherhand has the same purpose but as the SEVERUS SNAPE of the Naruto Verse😅. Given main villain limelight and badassery moments on the 1st half and then relegated to moving the plot along on the side all the while grounding it and giving it depth. But again. He isnt the MAIN VILLAIN. Not even a villain at all. So! Its hard to make an objective power scaling for them because canon is an unreliable narrator for them. Itachi needs to be 'perceived' as OP while Kakashi needs to be great but not OP enough to not need the MC. Not that they arent very strong but they are needed for balance. Which is why! Im glad you put in hard fact written by Kishi and not just based on on screen fights. "Underneathe the underneathe" and all that. Mix with the actual battle assesments is... wtf dude. Did i read the same manga and fight sequence as you?! I actually think the most questionable for this match up is the genjutsu aspect. Mainly because Itachi has a very genjutsu centered fighting style and the question of Kakashi's resistance to it is still debateable. But yeah i may also still be incapable of being objective here because i am stuck on itachi's genjutsu strength. Because you are right. If kakashi is capable of nulling Itachi's genjutsu then it wont be impossible to imagine him winning this even if we remove Itachi basically being half dead and or are already dead in the equation. Oh and i love them both too much for this
I love Kakashi but he ain't winning in the pain arc, actually he should win against almost anything only using Kamui haha but for some reason he doesn't use it against pain for example, same goes for the war arc fight, Itachi is easily at the level of EMS sasuke, kakashi never gets that far before the DMS thing, again he should indeed win by Kamui alone, about hokage kakashi idk, haven't gone beyond shippuden just yer Kamui is really broken so maybe you are right and he should technically win most of the fights but Itachi is way stronger at everything else in almost every scenario
This is going to be a long comment, so bare with me. Kinda funny that Kakashi pushed Itachi into using Tsukuyomi (while carrying Asuma and Kurenai fodder asses, no less), while Orochimaru got folded by base Sharingan genjutsu. I believe there's a statement about Naruto Generations game cutscenes being canon. In that case, we know for a fact that Kakashi's clone was able to somewhat preassure Jonin Minato and even touch a bell during the bell test. You can even make a further case for ANBU Kakashi's superiority over Itachi (pre-MS, that is) based on Kakashi's somewhat implied superiority over Kohinata, who fought Itachi and Shisui at the same time and would've won if not for Shisui using his own MS. And *if* we're using Kakashi ANBU filler arc (certain elements of which are undoubtedly canon), we've seen Kakashi repeatedly defeating young Yamato, someone skilled enough that Danzo entrusted him with a mission of assassinating Hiruzen. Kamui ignores transparent obstacles, we've seen this when Kakashi Kamuied the Eight-Tails while inside Kurama's avatar. As long as Kakashi can *see* Itachi, he can Kamui him. And he doesn't need Kamui to deal with Susanoo anyway, he can simply travel underground right beneath Itachi's feet, bypassing Susanoo altogether. Worth pointing out is that before his fight with Edo Itachi, Naruto split his chakra between (at least) 12 clones which he sent to different battlefields. So the speed gap is much bigger. Another Kamui feat that doesn't get much attention is when Kakashi managed to Kamui an arm of Gedo Mazo and blitzed Minato's perception. People hate to see the Kamui GG argument and understandably so. However, the same people have zero problems with the Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susanoo GG argument. Pure hypocrisy. Kakashi fully intended to Kamui "Madara" during the Five Kage Summit arc right of the bat. Furthermore, full-body Kamui is literally Kakashi's only reliable way of permanently dealing with an Edo. So yeah, Kamui GG. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. Overall, great video. Keep up the good work.
Didn't they say that the Sharingan eyes were stronger when together? So I assume once Kakashi and Obito were on the same battlefield, Kakashi's Sharingan feats went way up. Thanks for the video!
W Vid In terms of their part 1 encounter, I think Itachi does edge out Kakashi here without MS. Although Itachi did 100% need MS/Tsukuyomi to end the fight as quickly as he did As far as Pain arc goes, Kakashi most likely outlasts Itachi here. If not an off guard Kamui could do the trick as Kakashi was able to snipe that missle despite comitting the the jutsu long after the missile was chasing Choji, therefore he had less time to tag it. He either pierces the Yata Mirror or snipes behind it People downplay the Kamui to the orb because he had Gaara bring him near it but don’t mention that he was losing vision. If anything both factors even out to show he’d be capable of the exact same feat with a healthy MS from farther away. Lastly, Boruto Era Kakashi is more likely to have sealing jutsu for reanimation at this point IMO. Considering how much the Edo Tensei pissed him off in the first place, I think he’d prepare himself and the village for that jutsu.
Thank you! I think this is all pretty spot-on. The part one thing definitely has multiple interpretations. I just think Kakashi being confident he can handle Itachi’s genjtusu base sharingan to base sharingan, paired with the statement about being forced to use MS, leads me to believe that Itachi needs MS to beat Kakashi there. But it can go either way for sure.
@@sageofthickcalvesI can see your point though. Itachi didn’t even notice Kakashi’s presence until Kakashi’s clone made the save for Asuma. They then react to each other. Kakashi than gets somewhat tagged by the exploding clone because he made the save for Kurenai. Definitely a lot to go over here
People gotta understand kakashi got mentally nerfed from the day his dad died. He was chronically depressed for most of his life. It seems to me after the timeskip is when he starts to care more about life. Like he talks about how he’s been training hard again, and how he’s really starting to like Naruto durring the rasenshurikin training. So after he gets that final closure from meeting his dad again in the pain arc, the nerf is lifted, and kakashi’s full potential comes out.
According to that logic, itachi was mentally nerfed exponentially worse due to killing his father, mother, and lover, participating in the actual genocide of just about his entire clan, and manipulated his beloved baby brother to hate him with all his heart, and be exiled from his beloved village for the rear of his life. With a mental nerf like that, then we've see even less of a fraction of itachi's true potential than we've even believed previously; and we will never see his true potential. Honestly though, I've suspected for a long time that itachi's terminal illness stemmed from the incomprehensible trauma of killing your own loved ones.
Databook 4 has 2 statements that outright imply this to be true. The first says, “There are no longer doubts in Kakashi.” This is in reference to him coming to peace with how things turned out with Obito and himself. The other statement says, “As a friend, as a teacher, as a shinobi… Kakashi’s mind wavered.” This is in reference to before he comes to peace with everything with Obito.
For pain arc I feel like we don’t know kakashi’s genjustu level because for all we know he could have been practicing like a madlad right before the war arc. I feel like it feels right to give itachi the edge but pain arc kakashi scrapped with the devah path so idk. I didn’t even know kamui works like that so the more you know!
Yeah it was a ton of fun doing research for this! As far as the genjutu, another way to say Kakashi resists it is because Itachi felt he was “forced” to use tsukuyomi against Kakashi when he only had a base sharingan. That at least opens the door for the idea that Kakashi with MS should be able to cancel out Itachi’s genjtusu
What I’ve always found so crazy in the community is how it’s only ok for Itachi to have imaginary feats based off hypotheticals be taken as facts vs people with better feats. These comment sections are golden man lol.
Is kamui even considered an attack? Attacks usually damage/hurt a person. Kamui isnt really an attacking jutsu more so a space time ninjutsu simillar to the flying raijin technique and the summoning jutsu. So could the susano'o block a space-time ninjutsu even though it isn't an attack?
Great question. Even if it is registered as an attack, I think there’s just a lot of evidence for Kamui being able to get behind it or just counter it outright.
I am also unsure if the missions would be as dangerous or would really be that wide as Itachi has been taken to battle fields and is arguably more book smart
Kakashi was a higher ranked shinobi than Itachi and literally fought in a war, which Itachi did not. It’s undeniable that Kakashi went on more difficult missions
Pain arc kakashi who’s inferior to Jiraiya winning 50% of the matches against pain arc itachi is insane. I’d argue hebi sasuke could beat kakashi high/extreme dif. Itachi is quite literally early EMS Sasuke level+ considering his intellect and overall fighting ability. Losing to someone inferior to the sannin which itachi scales massively above even at age 14 is strange. But that’s the only gripe I have with this. Good video
I've been waiting for this vid 😂 And though i wholeheartedly disagree with you and your scaling logic, i still enjoy your content Sick and legally blind itachi still stomps pain arc kakashi 😂 #sorrynotsorry 😅
I appreciate you bro! Love seeing you engaging on here 🙏🏼 Yeah I just think there are no direct lines of scaling outside of their skirmish in early shippuden, which implied to me that they’re physically relative. Then it just comes down to MS abilities. If you think Kakashi’s Kamui isn’t developed enough at that point to make a difference, that’s fair. I just think it is based on his heavily fatigued use of Kamui against Pain’s ashura path missile. If you flip this to Itachi, though, I think it’s fair to flip Hokage Kakashi the W against Edo.
The disrespectful on itachi. Minato says lighting blade has a huge weakness it would be obvious to itachi. Half dead sick itachi was able to genjutsu and speed blitz sasuke at the every beginning of their fight and tanked kirin. That sasuke should be above kakashi. Kakashis most impressive feats in the war arc come from acting as a support class and being buffed by Naruto. Itachi slams all but dms slams itachi.
Just so much wrong here. I’ll go point by point. - The Chidori weakness is only when Kakashi doesn’t have a sharingan. So that doesn’t apply for all but 2 of these matches, and one of those is one where Itachi also doesn’t have a sharingan, while the other is one where Kakashi wouldn’t use Chidori. So it’s totally irrelevant. - That Sasuke doesn’t have MS and still battled that Itachi to a standstill in base sharingan genjutu. Kakashi resisting Obito’s genjtusu is arguably the best genjutsu defense feat in the entire series. His genjutu defense is verifiably better than anything Itachi can replicate. - Kirin was tanked by the susano’o, so that’s irrelevant. - Hebi Sasuke is not above Pain Arc Kakashi. It’s arguable at best, but Kamui is basically an automatic win con vs that Sasuke. - In order to argue that Itachi beats WA Kakashi, you have to prove that he’s faster than 8th Gate Guy, since when Kakashi outsped 8th Gate Guy with Kamui, he wasn’t buffed by Naruto and he was going blind. So prove that. If you can’t, you have to concede that he cannot dodge Kamui and, thus, would lose.
@@sageofthickcalves First, kakashi can’t use lighting blade without the sharingen. Second, earlier to mid shippuden kakashis kamui is too inconsistent couldnt even kill deidara with it. sasuke is way faster than deidara and itachi blitz a stronger sasuke. Third, war arc kakashi is no where on 8th gate guy lvl. Naruto buffed kakashi with his chakura so much so kakashi was ready to kamui the 10 tails he couldn’t do that on his own. Plus itachi was prepared to fight obito someone with a better kamui. (Love your video and I enjoy interacting with TH-camrs I like to watch. Love the vs battle keep it up!)
@@mattmcwhirt4146 I appreciate the love! Thank you for engaging and being so positive 🤙🏼 I think we agree on a lot of stuff, but the conclusions you come to are what I disagree with. - Yes, Kakashi can’t use raikiri effectively without the sharingan. However, that won’t matter at all for any of the matchups but two. The first one (kid Kakashi vs kid Itachi pre-sharingan) doesn’t make a difference because Kakashi just blatantly has better feats than Itachi at that point regardless of that. He also has to be at least as fast as weightless Lee at that point to have the physical speed capable of using Chidori, giving him a decisive speed edge regardless. The second one (Hokage Kakashi vs Edo Itachi) doesn’t matter either because Kakashi has replaced raikiri with shinden. However, once he gets the sharingan, he verifiably has a MASSIVE speed amp over Itachi, up until part 1, due to the cutting a lightning bolt feat. So, as far as the matchups where it could matter, it really doesn’t because of other factors. - I agree Kakashi’s Kamui pre-Pain Arc isn’t good enough to be a factor, but sniping Pain’s Ashura Path missile (hypersonic) while HEAVILY fatigued, gets his Kamui where it needs to be to pose a threat. Also, Kakashi is verifiably faster than Deidara physically. That’s why Deidara decided to stay away from him. - Kakashi was no longer buffed by Naruto’s chakra at that point in the war. We see him huffing and puffing, low on chakra, literally right before Guy goes into the 8th Gate. So Naruto’s chakra isn’t affecting him in any way at that point. Therefore, his Kamui speed, while going blind and heavily fatigued, is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s combat speed. Even if you want to disregard that, Kakashi’s Kamui speed was faster than KCM 1.5 Naruto’s and even perception blitzed Rinnegan Obito. This was before Naruto gave him any chakra. So unless you can prove that Itachi is a blitz tier above KCM 1.5 Naruto and Rinnegan Obito, you cannot prove he’d be able to dodge the Kamui. Therefore, Kamui is an automatic win condition. - Obito’s Kamui is only better in the sense that it has the passive warping effect, not in its ability to warp opponents. In terms of that, Kakashi’s Kamui is FAR superior, since by that point it’s just as fast, if not faster than Obito’s, and he can do it from long range. The two Kamui variants just provide very different obstacles for Itachi, and honestly Obito’s is easier for his move set to counter, since Obito has to get close. Kakashi can literally just snipe Itachi’s head off from a distance if he wants to.
@@sageofthickcalves I feel like we agree on basically everything but war arc kakashi vs itachi. I do think it’s close. you mentioned pain arc kamui was able to snipe attack at hypersonic that wouldn’t work itachi is more consistently scales to reacting to light speed attacks (kirin or during the sasuke fight shuriken hand signs faster than sasukes sharigen can perceive same sharigen that can react to ay moving at light speed). But kakashi kamui is only at or above light speed used defensely 5ks Sasukes susanoo arrow should blitz ay but kamui can react to it if it was that fast offensively why didn’t he try to snipe sasuke. I will say in the war arc kakashi did snipe kcm Naruto rasengan to hit obito I could see how you could scale that above itachi but that combo attack was planned and kakashi was acting as a support class rather than directly engaging. The 8th gate guy feat is weird everyone even 6th gate lee is reacting to guy but again as support class. In conclusion itachi is more of a battle genius only has to see a jutsu once to know the weakness, more modest scaling they are relative in speed with itachi having more hax than kakashi. (Dms kakashi without susanoo slams itachi tho) Thank you I appreciate your time. This is a fun experience. In my mind war arc kakashi is a lot closer to itachi than I previously thought.
@@mattmcwhirt4146 - So the problem isn’t that Itachi can’t react to light speed attacks, it’s that he can’t MOVE at light speed. The only reason why Kamui is relevant during the Pain Arc fight is because Itachi and Kakashi are relative in base, which would likely lead to Itachi needing the susano’o. Since his susano’o physical speed is pretty slow, Kamui should work against it as a win condition. However, I’m not opposed to you disagreeing with that, since it’s not really provable either way. - As far as the war arc, there’s just no debate. Since Kakashi’s Kamui during the war arc is verifiably relativistic +, and Itachi verifiably cannot move that fast, even if he can react to it (I’m not sure he could, since Obito got perception blitzed by it) it wouldn’t matter. He HAS to move out of the way of the Kamui to counter it, and he just can’t. It’s just like Sasuke vs Lee in part 1. His sharingan could see what was happening, but his body couldn’t do anything about it. - It honestly doesn’t matter if the KCM attack was planned or not. Kakashi still would have to perceive and follow Naruto’s movement, as well as being able to activate and complete the Kamui quicker than Obito could perceive. That definitively scales Kakashi Kamui above what Itachi can physically react to. - The issue with the 8th Gate Guy feat is just the fact that Kakashi was able to warp the hole in the TSO in a shorter time than it took for Guy to finish his blitz of Madara. The speed at which Kamui can be completed is the issue for Itachi. If Kakashi is able to complete a Kamui that fast, Itachi just wouldn’t have a shot of moving out of the way. So, even though 6th Gate Lee could SEE what was going on, the same would go for him. He couldn’t move fast enough to counter Kamui either, since you have to physically move out of the way of the attack. - I just outright disagree with the assertion that Itachi is more of a battle genius than Kakashi. They’re at LEAST in the same tier in terms of battle IQ, with either one of them having an argument over the other. - Yeah, Kakashi and Itachi are likely relative in terms of physical speed, with Kakashi having an argument for being above him, but that’s not the problem. Kakashi’s Kamui speed and precision puts him multiple blitz tiers above Itachi. The argument has never been Kakashi physically blitzes Itachi, although he likely does with raikiri. The argument is Kamui blitzes Itachi, and there’s no argument against it. You just have to prove that Itachi can move out of the way before Kakashi can complete the Kamui and he has no speed feats to back that up. I will say, if Kakashi’s Kamui was off the table, he might lose against Itachi, Edo or not, since he doesn’t have a counter for the susano’o without it. I just think it’s pretty blatant that Kamui is a broken move haha. Thanks for chatting! Feel free to engage on here anytime and I’ll chat with you 🙏🏼 Make sure to have your notifications on so when I go live you can hop in and I can answer your questions on there as well 🤙🏼
(Pain arc kakashi vs Sick Itachi) Kakashi said that Jiraya was stronger and Itachi stomped hydra Orochimaru that should be at worse equal to sage jiraya. That Itachi stomps Kakashi low diff (Btw why you say Pain Arc Itachi? He is dead 😂)
Killing an off guard, monologing Orochimaru with an attack that Orochimaru literally laughed at before realizing what it was, holds literally ZERO scaling implications. There’s no way to argue it was a legit blitz, so there’s no way to argue it can tag Kakashi. Also, it was via sharingan hax, which Kakashi has a counter for (as detailed in the video) and Orochimaru doesn’t.
Itachi has been above sannin since he was a teen, and pain arc kakashi is still below sannin. It's clear as day, tbh but the kakashi glazing is hilarious
@sageofthickcalves itachi has been above sannin since he was a teen; and what you fail to realize is the meta behind fiction and storytelling: the encounter with hydro oro was narratively and thematically coherent with what was stated by orochimaru himself long before their final encounter, and that statement is that teen itachi is far stronger than orochimaru. Your view, on the other hand, is so skewed, biased, and incoherent that it's actually hilarious.
A lot of biasness and advantages on kakashi. Even some kakashi fan disagree the scaling. Kid kakashi vs kid itachi. It depends on if itachi has awaken his sharingan or not. If no kakashi highly take this, but if so itachi highly take this. But the battle could go either way since both has excellent iq and jutsu. Kakashi is more of ninjutsu builder while itachi is more skilled in ninja tools like clones & shurikenjutsu & also his own fire nature Winner: Draw 12 itachi vs 12 kakashi. At this age, Itachi is promoted as the anbu captain and pretty much mastered every sharingan abilities, shurikenjutsu, crow clone, taijutsu. Well, kakashi only get his sharingan that year. Good speed feats for his age but still struggle with doing a chidori. He hasn't copied as much jutsu yet. So far kakashi hasn't skilled much in s class jutsu yet Winner: itachi Akatsuki ms itachi vs anbu kakashi. Skilled in his ms powers and his genjutsu. Literally can blitzed kakashi at this point with his ms abilities and possibly base genjutsu since kakashi doesn't has the chakra and stamina to keep up with his sharingan Winner: itachi Pain arc kakashi vs Sick itachi. At this point, he could use 3 chidori a day with his chakra level. Could use 1 kamui attack which likely drain lot of his chakra. Sick itachi could do 1 tsukuyomi, amateratsu through whole building & susanoo before he cough his blood. Obito stated that ms itachi is still lot more powerful than ms sasuke until he obtain itachi eye. While kakashi almost get killed by blinded injuried sasuke and struggle. Winner: sick itachi Edo itachi vs war arc kakashi. The improvement so far for kakashi is kamui. But mostly likely kamui and chidori couldn't do much on itachi. Itachi could either evade it with clones or genjutsu or his speed. Winner: edo itachi Edo itachi vs dms kakashi. Kakashi biggest feats r his perfect susanoo & having six path chakra from obito. At this point, he surpassed itachi in almost entire aspect. Winner: kakashi
My man, did you watch the full video? A lot of the stuff you’re saying makes it seem like you didn’t. For example, I showed why Kakashi got his sharingan at 9, not 12. I also did break up kid Kakashi Vs kid Itachi pre and post sharingan into two separate categories. It just doesn’t seem like you saw that.
@@sageofthickcalves Honestly, I watch but a lot of cap there as I stated. Here's the things that doesn't make sense, becuz it stated that very clearly obito, kakashi, Rin, might guy and others r all at the same age. It wouldn't make sense he is younger than obito at this point.
@@jackylim3948 How do you explain them graduating on the same day with Kakashi graduating at 5 and Obito graduating at 9? Their graduation ages are repeated more than once, so it’s not a one time error. Also, Minato says, during the kanabi bridge mission, that “5 years ago” is when Kakashi’s dad died and from that day forward Kakashi was always following the Shinobi rules and regulations. Since Kakashi for sure graduated at 5 (databooks, Itachi midnight novel, etc) and we see him in the war arc flashback scolding Obito about the rules when they first meet Minato, we know that he was like that at least from the time they graduated, if not before. This means Kakashi’s father died before Kakashi graduated from the academy, making him no older than 10, but likely 9, when the kanabi bridge mission occurred. We know Obito “died” at 13, so this is another solid piece of evidence for Kakashi being 9 there.
@@sageofthickcalves U know wat very simple, one of the episode I'm pretty sure Obito makes it very very cleared and said about kakashi "he is the same age as us. And he did get graduation at 5, but there's no explanation he get straight up 4 years younger than obito like U said. And there's no explanation wat he's doing around that 4 years. He could be placed in another team squads there until obito and Rin graduated and being put in minato team to balance their power
@@sageofthickcalves So watever it said, the truth is kakashi get his sharingan at 12 years old or probably 13 years old. The age u stated is obviously headcannon
I would argue that 12v12, Itachi would win as he regularly spars and contends well against Shisui the Teleporter. Kakashi speed and Raikiri is a challenge, but Itachi has the feats to react at this point. Kakashi's Sharingan chakra drain would have him tap out quickly at this stage. In the Pain Arc, it's a no contest in Itachi's favor. Pre-Hebi Sasuke is stated to be over Kakashi. Itachi is stated to be over Hebi Sasuke if he seriously fought and didn't drag out the fight. Itachi at this point is also able to stomp Orochimaru (not nerfed). Kakashi struggles to compare himself to Orochimaru's level. For War Arc vs Edo; did the jutsu record for Kakashi account for the 2 times his chakra was replenished by the bijuu (8 & 9)? Also, the kamui feat with Guy was from close range and facillitated by Gaara, not a great feat in comparison. Edo Itachi is reacting to a Sage, stated to have significant reaction feats over KCM1 at least (KCM2???). Also, the databook statement about Madara on 9Tails control is not accurate. Because Obito was still around and he highly coveted Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami, both technically in Itachi's possession. His ambitions lead him to different outcomes but he could have done so if he so wished. Edo Itachi also would not have to worry about chakra consumption or dodging attacks and could stay on the offensive adding pressure over Kakashi. It should be a definitive win for Itachi. Before his death, even Obito worried about a coup by Itachi. Hokage Kakashi could rival Edo Itachi in stamina and offensive power, but his speed and reaction would be significantly lower without the Sharingan. Giving Itachi WAY too many opportunities to counter or completely overtake Kakashi by taking advantage of Edo immortality + MS pre-cog + MS genjutsu that Kakashi can no longer resist. Itachi also winning in Part 1 + early Shippuden as stated in the video obv for the extra 2 counts. Kakashi only winning both pre-sharingan and later with DMS (top of the verse for a brief period). I count Kakashi vs Itachi; 2:7 = Itachi as the victor. On a separate note, how sad that both of these incredible prodigies never achieved their true potential. Itachi was split between his talent and his personal/political goals and died extremely young at 21. Kakashi in his melancholy outright stopped training, outside of copying other's jutsu in various elements (some redundancy), for 20 years! If both focused more on there talents and improving their jutsu and chakra pools. They would both be absolutely unrivaled in the verse. Both could potentially be the greatest Sage's as well if given the opportunity. Which would also counter the blindness of the MS while bolstering their chakra and jutsu.
Totally agree with your last point, but we do sort of see Kakashi as Hokage reach his potential since he’s on the level of six paths characters. But yeah the both definitely got nerfed throughout the series. As far as the matchups, here’s what I’ll say. - 12v12 Itachi doesn’t have lightning timer feats. Shisui and Itachi sparred like 35 times and Itachi won 14, BUT they weren’t using their sharingan. Shisui was famous for his body flicker proficiency, which was massively amped by his sharingan perception. He also obviously wasn’t using his MS. So Shisui’s downgrade is greater than Itachi’s. Because of this, we can’t confidently scale Itachi’s speed to Shisui’s. Therefore, if we can’t prove he is fast enough to react to a 1/3 lightspeed raikiri, it’s chalked up as an automatic win condition. - Pre-Hebi Sasuke is never stated to be over Kakashi. In fact, when Kakashi is in the hospital right before training Naruto to enhance his rasengan, Kakashi implies that Naruto learning this new technique would give him the power to beat Sasuke and MAYBE even surpass Kakashi himself. This is after saying Yamato told him everything about Sasuke. So he knows how strong Sasuke is and still believes he’s above him. - Pain arc only goes either way because of Kamui. If the yata mirror stops it, Itachi gets an easy win. If it doesn’t, Kakashi gets an easy win. Itachi definitively is above Kakashi overall at this point, but Kamui is so broken that it swings the balance massively. I also am not so sure that Orochimaru is above Kakashi at this point. He probably is, but Kamui would also be a problem for him. - The 5x Kamui, 8x raikiri, 2x shadow clones, and 1x mud wall all happened BEFORE Kakashi got additional chakra. So that was all him. One of those was warping away a rasengan out of KCM 1.5 Naruto’s hand while Naruto was moving at full speed. This perception blitzed Rinnegan Obito. Since we know that KCM 1.5 is stronger than KCM1 (due to Kurama freely sharing his chakra), and KCM1 Naruto was able to easily react to Edo Itachi, we can safely get the Kamui speed above Edo Itachi’s speed. This means Kakashi can definitively hit Itachi with Kamui pretty easily. - The 8th Gate Guy Kamui feat is still impressive because of the SPEED at which the jutsu is completed. Also, the only reason they were so close is because Kakashi was going blind. He outright says they have to get close because he’s losing sight in his left eye. In no way is it ever shown or implied that Kamui’s speed is increased or decreased based on the distance Kakashi is from his target. So the feat still stands as blitzing 8th Gate Guy’s combat speed. I don’t think I need to explain why that puts Kamui WAYYYY above Itachi’s speed. - Itachi does react to sage Kabuto, but there’s no way to scale that Kabuto above KCM1 or KCM2 Naruto. Itachi also gets blitzed by that Kabuto, but having an Edo body allowed him to be hit without consequences. So it’s unclear whether or not Kabuto’s speed is superior to Itachi’s or not, and there are no direct lines of scaling from Sage Kabuto to war arc Naruto. So there’s no feasible argument to be made there. So, again, there’s no argument to be made for Itachi being able to dodge Kamui, meaning he loses. - Minato permanently severed the contract seal between Obito and Kurama, which is why he couldn’t control Kurama anymore. It’s also never stated that he coveted the Tsukuyomi or Kotoamatsukami. If he wanted Tsukuyomi so badly, he could’ve had it. He literally had access to Itachi’s dead body and could take his eyes for himself instead of giving them to Sasuke. So he clearly didn’t want it that badly. - Hokage Kakashi is stated to have increased his chakra by “orders of magnitude”, meaning his chakra is at least 100x higher, and that ALL of his combat abilities have “significantly increased” from the time he fought Obito and Madara, meaning that his durability, speed, etc have all increased. We actually see this with Kakashi being able to tangle with and react to Kashin Koji. This Koji is a rival to Delta. Delta swapped hands with a suppressed SPSM Naruto. So at BARE MINIMUM, Kakashi speed and reaction time are on par with base adult Naruto. This Naruto reacted to and blocked attacks from Fused Momoshiki. Momoshiki in base was considered a “Kaguya level threat”, and pushed Naruto and Sasuke to put in quite a bit of effort. So, in terms of combat and reaction speed, Fused Momoshiki ≈> Kaguya > Juubi Madara > Rinnegan Madara > KCM2 Naruto > KCM1 Naruto ≈ Edo Itachi. So Hokage Kakashi is potentially 5-6 blitz tiers above Edo Itachi. He unironically blitzes and one taps. You should read the Retsuden novel. It’s crazy how much stronger Kakashi is. Unfortunately, he may not be able to seal him, though, so if you just go based off of feats, Kakashi should still lose despite MASSIVELY out scaling Itachi.
Kakashi and hebi sasuke are different fighters anyway. Even if sasuke was more chakra and durability, kakashi knows practically everything about sasuke, and would outplay him. Kakashi should be able to see through any of sasuke’s genjutsu, and set up a Chidori after some shadow clone games, popping outta the ground, water style jutsu is good against sasuke.
Itachi is one of those characters that a lot of Naruto fans like to pretend he can do anything, but in reality there are plenty of people who surpass him. People forget that Itachi was nearly brainwashed by Kabuto while trying to activate Izanami. If Sasuke wasn't there, Kabuto would've beaten him. There's still people who believe Itachi could beat Madara or easily handle Minato and that's where it gets too far. If I had to sum it up, he scales around upper tailed beast level at his peak.
That version of kabuto would've murdered kakashi even with sasuke's help. Also, itachi was specifically sparing kabuto's life as he fought him so that he can cancel the edo tensei technique. It's doubtful kabuto would've done as well against a bloodlusted itachi. He'd end up like Nagato did. Dead.
RIght, but you explained it dumb. Sasuke did not help Itachi lmao. Itachi aslo needed Kabuto alive to reverse the edo tensei. Madara is a stretch but we don't know how he would deal with Tsukyomi. Minato however, It is pretty fair to give it to Itachi high diff. He is definitely meat ridden though.
With Sasuke in the way and without killing him, Itachi completely defeated Kabuto. And yeah Kakashi would never win against that Kabuto. Itachi as Kid was supposed to be as good as Minato and Kakashi, and then he got a Sharingan on top of that. We don't know how far Itachi got in his search for power. When we see Madaras perfect Susanoo it leaves us with the question. He only defeated his opponent by the necessary margin, so had he had to fight Madara, would he have pulled a bigger Susanoo out?
@@jxnior4292 You just proved my point. 1. Sasuke did help Itachi. Kabuto cut him in half, had a Reanimation tag ready to use and Sasuke blocked it. I don't know how you can watch that fight and pretend Sasuke was not helping Itachi. Sasuke literally freed Itachi from Kabuto's genjutsu. 2. Everyone brings up that Itachi wasn't trying to kill Kabuto, but Kabuto wasn't trying to kill them either, He wanted to capture Sasuke and regain control of Itachi. They both had handicaps. 3. Tsukuyomi is a strong genjutsu, but it's still just a visual genjutsu. Madara has stronger eyes and more endurance due to the Eternal Mangekyou. Itachi went blind using all three abilities in his fight with Sasuke. And given how fast Madara is, there's no guarantee he could even hit him with it. 4. Everything about Minato's arsenal was basically designed to battle the Uchiha Clan. He has sealing jutsu, is too fast to hit and his Rasengan could clash with a restrained full 9 tails. Stop it.
@@jhulianvincentutermohlen287 He can't pull a bigger Susanoo. Madara's complete Susanoo was a result of having the Eternal Mangekyou. The best Itachi could do was the armored Susanoo. The only person who progressed a Susanoo to the completed stage with regular mangekyou was Kakashi, who was quite literally possessed by a ghost via the Six Paths chakra. There is no next stage, the armored one is his limit. The game version doesn't count.
Itachi has already shown that he can’t be compared to anyone in the anbu at that age… Kakashi has no answers to itachi’s various preemptive genjutsu… kakashi uses clones initially Itachi used EXPLOSIVE clones initially. Itachi has superior stats to most forms of kakashi And kamui is negged if the target is too fast for it’s warping which is why kakashi couldn’t just snipe tendo even though it’d have ended the fight if he did… it’s only useful on targets that don’t have the dexterity to dodge it… Early War arc kakashi had trouble dealing with severely weakened almost blind sasuke. Itachi easily scales to mastered kcm naruto through EMS sasuke. Later in the war kakashi gets to keeping up with kcm1 naruto and fought alongside kcm minato…
Point by point. - That’s never shown or stated - Itachi outright admits that he needs MS genjutsu to handle Kakashi, so his base sharingan genjutu isn’t enough - Itachi has superior stats to ANBU Kakashi (only after Itachi awoke MS), part 1 Kakashi, and pre-war Kakashi. Prior to awakening MS, and from the war arc and on Kakashi has better stats definitively. - Yup, and Edo Itachi isn’t faster than 8th Gate Guy, so he wouldn’t be able to dodge WA Kakashi’s Kamui. - That’s not the war arc bro that’s the 5 Kage Summit. There’s a very clear power creep in the war arc, and like I said, Kakashi’s end of war stats (pre-DMS) are significantly higher than his early war stats. For example, Kakashi’s physical speed in base is on par with 3rd Gate Guy early on, but he’s relative to KCM Minato toward the end. You can’t just ignore feats bro lol - EMS Sasuke is outright stated to be stronger than Itachi in every way - KCM Minato scales to KCM2 Naruto in terms of speed. Kakashi’s speed being above KCM Minato’s means he’s multiple speed blitz tiers above Itachi
We only see it countered via speed and Obito countering it himself. Since WA Kakashi’s Kamui speed is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s movement speed, you’d have to make the argument that Itachi is faster than 8th Gate Guy, which he’s not. He has no shot against WA Kakashi.
@@sageofthickcalves Kakashi Kamui isn't that fast to keep up with those speeds it needed to be amped by having both close together while Obito had a six paths boost. All Itachi needs to win the fight is just one gaze one simple look. Not to mention since he's a sharingan user he can the chakra forming in Kakashi eye.
@@diamantemrobinson Kakashi wasn’t working in conjunction with Obito when he warped the hole in Juubidara’s TSO shield, nor was he amped by six paths chakra. That was all Kakashi WHILE he was going blind. As far as genjutsu, Kakashi has resisted a much stronger genjtusu user in Obito, as I stated in the video. Also, seeing the chakra in Kakashi’s eye wouldn’t matter because the Kamui activation is faster than Itachi can react.
@@sageofthickcalves Guy VS Madara has many plot holes regarding speed. All of them even Gaara are blatantly reacting to them. Itachi is definitely faster speed and reaction wise than Gaara, Lee, and Kakashi all of which show they could intervene in that fight. They were outside the battle not directly in it. When face to face against Madara, Kakashi and Obito were sitting ducks stating Kamui wasn't fast enough and has to sync it up. So no it's fails at that level of speed when directly involved.
@@diamantemrobinson They’re not plot holes. It’s called a power creep. It happens in anime all the time. You have to prove that Itachi can move faster than 8th Gate Guy in order to prove Itachi can react to it. There’s no way around this. Guy leaves his feet, Kakashi activates the Kamui, he completes the Kamui, and then Guy lands his attack. This means that Kakashi activated and completed his Kamui in a shorter amount of time than it took 8th Gate Guy to cover a few meters. Therefore, Kakashi’s Kamui speed by the end of the war, WHILE going blind, is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s combat speed.
Kid vs Kid Kakashi wins clear Kid kakashi vs Kid Itachi (both w/sharingan) kakashi wins Anbu Kakashi vs Anbu Itachi with MS.. Itachi wins with MS without it he loses Pain Arc Itachi wins War Arc Kakashi wins
You forgot to mention that Kakashi's genjutsu can stalemate obito's genjutsu, when obito's genjutsu can control the 4th mizukage / a perfect jinchuriki. Perfect jinchurikis are almost immune to genjutsu. And obito can regularly use it on yagura like he was using kotoamatsukami on him.
I actually mentioned it twice. Once during the Pain Arc section and once during the War Arc section. I didn’t bring up Yagura, but I did bring up Obito’s control of Kurama
@@z.e.d4037 danzo’s pretty smart so I would consider his words. He just doesnt have any screentime cuz by the time we saw the 3 tails, it was already free meaning yagura died prior to shippuden.
5:55 You can actually argue Shisui is faster than Kalashi is by this point as he is implied to be unrivsled in speed so the fact those two are relative then you can just argue it wouldn't matter if Kakashi's lightning feat is 1/3 lightspeed plus Shisui despite being poisoned is faster than Danzo and Sasuke by blutz tier according to you so...
@@sageofthickcalves i have seen people argue he is faster due to his eye not being as strained also Danzo is still a rival for Hiruzen and survived 3 great ninja wars.
Kakashi is shown inferior to Sasuke in the arc after pain assault (five kage). Sasuke is said to not surpass itachi until he reaches EMS so based on that I’d give the win to itachi (pain arc)
Kakashi reacted to Sasuke’s physical speed with no issues. He barely reacted to the susano’o arrow, but there’s no way to scale Itachi to or above the susano’o arrow.
Did you reference 30% clone Itachi cloning Kakashi as them being comparable in stats. If that’s not what that clip was from my bad but if so that’s an atrocious take. Itachi literally reacts to a full speed raikairi and puts base Naruto who is comparable to this Kakashi under genjutsu with one look. Itachi scales over strongest Sannin, Kakashi fights two paths of Pain and finds it inconceivable that Jiraiya faced all six. Also this is the same Kakashi who in the next arc gets pressed by a blinding Sasuke who is later comparable to a base Naruto who restrains Kakashi. You can argue this Kakashi was fatigued from Kamui but my counter is even prior to being fatigued and using his Sharingan he was still on the back foot against a blind Sasuke who is comparable to the same Naruto.
Great question. So I said they’re somewhat relative to one another, which I believe is demonstrated in the fight. But first let me just address a couple of things you said. 1) Kakashi never uses his raikiri in the manga fight. That’s an anime-only addition that does make it look atrocious. However, because it’s anime-only, it’s not canon. In the manga version, Kakashi’s clone (he splits chakra evenly amongst clones so it’s 50% of his chakra) is able to take Itachi by surprise with his earth style, dodge one of his attacks from close range, and even restrain him long enough for Naruto to land his rasengan. So yeah I think relativity is fair, although I’d still give Itachi a slight edge. 2) Itachi does scale over the Sannin, but Kakashi was WILDLY misinformed when he said that. Jiraiya quite literally never took on all six paths at once in combat. He faced off against all six for a moment, but that’s when he trapped one of them in the barrier jutsu. He didn’t actually engage in combat with them. Then, Pa outright says that he’ll die if he takes on the other 5, which is exactly what happens. So Kakashi saying Jiraiya taking on all 6 is insane comes from being misinformed on what actually happened. I do believe Sage Jiraiya should be above this version of Kakashi, but not by a lot in terms of their speed. I’d actually argue raikiri Kakashi, even at that point, has greater speed than sage Jiraiya. Kakashi is straight up stated to have the greatest speed of all Konoha shinobi in databook 2, which Jiraiya is in. 3) Naruto isn’t comparable to Kakashi at that point. They’re fresh off the bell test there where Kakashi dog walked Naruto and Sakura simultaneously and Naruto had to cheat to win. 4) The Sasuke vs Kakashi fight is actually 3 arcs later, not one, but it’s still a bit disingenuous to say he got pressed by him when discussing physical speed. Kakashi was only ever pressed by Sasuke’s susano’o arrow, which is significantly faster than Sasuke’s physical speed. We know this because Danzo reacts to Sasuke’s physical speed more than once, but gets blitzed by the susano’o arrow. Also, the version of Sasuke that fought Kakashi was the strongest version of Sasuke we had seen because he had received numerous hatred amps, which allowed for his susano’o to evolve during their fight. He did begin experiencing blindness at the end of their fight, but we have no evidence of him experiencing blindness early on. I do agree that full power Itachi should be stronger than full power FKS Sasuke (the one Kakashi fought), but that doesn’t do anything for physical scaling. 5) Base Naruto took Kakashi by surprise by restraining him and then rushing forward himself. I see no evidence to suggest Kakashi couldn’t have gotten out had he wanted to. Even if you argue Naruto is physically stronger, we know a 50% Kakashi clone restrained a 30% Itachi clone, so that just lends credence to the idea that Kakashi and Itachi are physically relative. At the end of the day, though, it’s more about speed than strength when I talk about them being somewhat relative, and there’s no real evidence against that.
@@Redoren966 he’s strongly implied to be stronger there because of hatred amps. I mean his susano’o literally evolves in their fight. The susano’o arrow Kakashi reacted to should be faster and stronger than the ones used against Danzo
The fact that you said Kakashi lowest speed feet is around gated guy when he is nowhere near Guys actual speed when it comes to leg movement, minato and Naruto use ninjutsu or bijuu for speed guy uses his raw leg speed and amp it with the gates
@@sageofthickcalves that’s not how you measure speed, it’s a the picture of them speaking to each other, coming up with a plan then guy activates it but it’s showing him activating it immediately while in the anime, they both run forward at moderate speeds then guy activates his gates. Still on the same paste no need for a race.
@@sageofthickcalves even guy using the seventh gate impressed Gara who noted that his movements were unhuman levels had already witnessed other speedsters before seeing guy. This was him in the seventh gate.
@@Noblesavage31 Kakashi and Guy start their charges at the same time, Kakashi with raikiri and Guy in 6th Gate, then they land their attacks simultaneously (could argue Kakashi actually lands his first because of the paneling) and they covered the same amount of distance. There’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t be going full speed, since they don’t both attack the same enemy. That’s about as definitive as speed scaling gets. They also rush in and save Naruto simultaneously with Guy in either the 3rd (most likely) or 5th Gate. There’s also no reason for them to not be going full speed since Naruto was literally about to die lol. As far as 7th Gate Guy, Kakashi could perceive his movements, so he’d be able to Kamui snipe him, especially considering his Kamui is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s attack speed, as shown later. Another piece of evidence for Kakashi being on that tier is him reacting to black Zetsu and covering the same amount as ground as KCM Minato in the same amount of time. This means at least their combat and reaction speeds are relative.
@@sageofthickcalves that’s really a bad analysis. The only reason guy is able to use such techniques as morning. Peacock is because of how fast he moved his fist. The initial start up to that attack is actually a flaming kick that sends the enemy into the air. The kick is on fire because of the sheer speed and power, breaking the air just as the peacock technique itself, this literally means guy moves his limbs at an incredible speed with power, Kamui is a space Jitsu simply activated by looking at someone this can happen instantaneously, so comparing it to someone who is moving laterally is a bad comparison, did you forget when Madara used TSO to attack Kakashi right as he kamui obito (twice the speed since both eyes were working) guy intercepted the orbs, The attack that you mentioned was precisely timed that way so that they can make Obita become in tangible or kick him just as Naruto is being saved Lightning blade is a thrust guy actually moves at inhuman speeds. How do you think a technique like hidden lotus is possible? Can kakashi do this? Why would I believe kamui can hit guy lol
He had no issue reacting to him physically, but did barely react to his susano’o arrow. However, that version of Sasuke is growing stronger by the moment because of hatred amps, and there’s no way to scale Itachi above Sasuke’s susano’o arrow speed. So it’s just not a good argument, especially when we saw Kakashi easily react to Itachi earlier on.
Itachi is very much implied a bit superior to Kakashi at that age considering he cleared the forest if death faster while he was solo while Kakashi had Obito and Rin and he is also smarter as he was second only to Minato at the time. If we go by the anime Orochimaru a genius himself never acknowledges Kakashi but acknowledges Itachi. We also have evidence to suggest he is likely physically stronger as well considering he destroyed a boulder with one punch before his academy days faster than his jonin mother could notice
So there are a few problems here. 1: Kakashi and Itachi are both called once in a generation prodigies, with Itachi probably having the better hype statements, but Kakashi having superior feats from a similar age 2: Kakashi likely would’ve completed the forest of death MUCH faster without Obito and Rin. We know, even after becoming a JONIN, that Kakashi regularly calls out his team for holding him back, specifically Obito. And when you look at the skill levels of Rin and Obito, do they REALLY seem like Chunin level combatants to you? Well, in the Kanabi Bridge mission, they’re both Chunin. Why is that, especially when they lost in the final round of the exams? Likely because Kakashi hard carried through the exams. 3: Orochimaru sees Kakashi as a prodigy, he’s just not interested in his physiology because oro likely has better genetics. 4: Itachi punching the boulder and shattering it isn’t a feat of physical strength, but rather a feat of chakra control. He even thinks this to himself in the novel you’re referring to. 5: By the time Itachi was just making Chunin, Kakashi was already a Jonin who had mastered at least 2 changes in chakra nature, along with both the rasengan AND the Chidori. He was also stronger than Itachi when they were both in the ANBU, up until Itachi got his MS. That’s why Kakashi was his superior, and why Itachi saw him as such in the novels.
@@sageofthickcalves 1 Why superior feats matter when intent says otherwise? 2 So does Sasuke and considering kakashi is an asshole just like sasuke I would take that with a grain of salt. Plus it doesn't help that we don't see kakashi really doing much to imply he was 3 be 1 people like Itachi did. And yeah they do seem as chunin as they surviving the third great ninja war and not being dead. It also doesn't help he still did it faster than Minato who is definetely a bigger prodigy than kakashi ever was 3 He was much more impressed by Itachi as seeing what he did amazed him and left in shock but not kakashi who he was laughing off and even implied Sasuke had slightly better eyes then the Itachi at his age 4 Yes and he was still extremely young and was amazing a jonin uchiha like who survived 2 great ninja wars so imagine what an chunin Itachi could punch like 5 Chidori was incomplete as other people were able to react to him plus rasengan we are not sure on how strong it is and the 2 chakra we have no real information to imply they would play a factor as he doesn't really use anything besides chidori. Are you sure it was due to his power because kakashi implies from what i read was due to having better circumstantial ranks
@@Redoren966 1: For the same reason we know Hiruzen isn’t stronger than Hashirama. 2: By the time of the Forest of Death, Sasuke recognized he needed Naruto and Sakura. Kakashi didn’t even come close to recognizing that until 3-4 years AFTER passing the Chunin exams. If you think Obito pre-sharingan is a Chunin-level shinobi, idk what to tell you lmao. Bro was literally crying on the battlefield. And as far as Minato being a bigger prodigy than Kakashi, that’s definitely arguable. However, Minato graduated in a time of peace, while both Kakashi an Itachi graduated in or around a time of war, which led to both of them being promoted quicker, as stated in the Itachi daylight novel. So the Minato example is a false equivalency, just like the Sasuke example. 3: Orochimaru only ever reacted to Itachi after getting the MS, which is the version I had beating Kakashi in this video. He never said anything about Itachi pre-MS. On top of that, Orochimaru saying that Sasuke has better eyes than Itachi at the same age doesn’t really matter. That would just make Itachi look worse because Itachi had the 3 tomoe at 12 lmao. 4: Kakashi amazed Jonin several times. That doesn’t matter 5: That does not matter. Even incomplete, Chidori is an A rank jutsu. Name one A rank jutsu that Itachi had at 9 years old. Also, the rasengan’s power doesn’t really matter either. It’s an A rank jutsu regardless, which, again, Itachi doesn’t have as a 9 year old. The point I was making is that Kakashi up through them both being 12 displayed feats far beyond what Itachi did. He not only has a wider arsenal of jutsu, he also has higher ranking jutsu. Kakashi has the experience advantage as well, since he would’ve been a Shinobi for longer, as well as the physical advantage, since he’s a lightning timer. Legitimately, the only thing Itachi has over Kakashi up until he get MS is genjutsu.
@sageofthickcalves 1. Actually it's prime Hiruzen who is considered that there and is no anti feats against and considering people are aware that Madara lost to Hashirama we have no real thing implying prime Hiruzen isn't superior. 2. So there is nothing implying he didn't help not to mention we got nothing to suggest he was fodder. Obito does have feats to suggest he is and he is also not implied to be that weak because we have seen genin get killed a lot in ninja wars. Minato was in the second Great ninja war as nagato who is not much younger than Minato fought in it. Not to mention if that were just makes it more impressive that he was considered unrivaled in terms of greatness by everyone who has met him and Kakashi and is considered far more notable than Kakashi was in terms of genius and talent.
@@sageofthickcalves 3 Going by the manga yes but in the anime he saw Itachi before that and was amazed. Why not? Also Sasuke is strictly stated to have better eyes than anyone in his clan bar Madara 4 When? 5 So is multi shadow clone and Naruto mastered it despite being an idiot and Sasuke who is openly stated to not be more talented than Itachi still is able to master chidori so I am not sure why you are saying that somehow equates to master level prodigy. Itachi also has strictly better strength feats too because of the bolder feat alone. Also him being a lightning timer we are unsure at what age he did plus also experience wouldn't matter that much as Itachi is directly implied to be more intelligent so...
It’s debatable, but it’s likely more like KCM2 or KCM 1.5 than KCM1. We know this because Kurama is freely sharing his chakra, which isn’t how KCM1 works. KCM1 is when Naruto forcibly takes Kurama’s chakra, but he can’t use his own. KCM 1.5 is when Kurama is cooperating and freely giving more chakra. KCM2 is when they combine their chakra pools. So it’s likely either KCM2 or 1.5, even though it looks like KCM1.
@@sageofthickcalves actually its kcm1.. The kcm naruto used dureming the 1st half of the war was an incomplete version due to the fact that kurama was draining naruto's chakra ...then while fighting jyubi and it clones naruto got access to what's called mastered kcm ( which btw is the real kcm1 ). And that's exactly what Minato had access to
@@patsander5634 While fighting against the bijuu, Naruto has the conversation with Kurama that prompts Kurama to give him chakra freely and his form doesn’t change, which is what people call KCM1.5. Either way, Minato had access to Kurama’s chakra and it doesn’t change much
Shisui is never stated to be a lightning timer and Itachi is not comparable to him. In the novels they spar without the sharingan (likely the thing that made Shisui so good at the body flicker) and Itachi only wins 11 out of 35 matches lol.
@@sageofthickcalves He is still considered the fastest in body flicker and is directly implied capable of kidnapping Hiruzen who is definitely several tiers above Kakashi. Also we have no evidence his Sharingan made him be better at teleporting. Not to mention the fact Itachi was still comparable is not great
@@Redoren966 you should go back and read the novels. Yes, he’s considered the greatest with the body flicker (by the Uchiha clan, so there could be some bias), but that’s WITH the sharingan. Itachi and Shisui sparred WITHOUT using their sharingan. As far as being able to kidnap Hiruzen, it wasn’t a one-man job. The plan they put together relied on a team of the most elite Uchiha. Also, it’s heavily implied he would’ve needed Kotoamatsukami.
@@sageofthickcalves Want me to debate you on discord on it then? Also considering Shisui was known world wide as Shisui the teleporter while Kakashi is more well known for his sharingan then him cutting a lightning bolt I am not sure that would be that insane in Naruto world
Kid Kakashi takes out Kid Itachi pre-sharingan but with sharingan, i can see them knocking each other out but im going to favor Kakashi due to Chidori, Rasengan, and ninja hounds. Anbu Kakashi loses to Anbu Itachi because well he took the title of captain from him at 13 so yeah. Pain Arc, I see another tie with this one favoring Itachi because of Suusano. Edo Itachi takes War Arc Kakashi and DMS/Hokage Kakashi slaughters! Thats what i think!
Well he didn’t take the title of captain from him. He became a captain of his own team. Also, Edo Itachi isn’t fast enough to dodge Kamui from WA Kakashi
@@sageofthickcalves Edo Itachi stills slams. Any Susanoo attack would do the trick and if WA Kakashi uses Kamui on said attack, Itachi could close the distance and hit him with Amaterasu. WA Kakashi can spam Kamui but it's not like he doesn't run of chakra and he was going blind, so I see edo Itachi taking it more times than not.
@@revalier3670 Prove that Itachi is faster than 8th Gate Guy. Then you can prove he can react to Kakashi’s Kamui. If you cannot prove that Itachi is as fast as or faster than 8th Gate Guy, you cannot prove that he reacts to Kamui.
@@SoullessFN He just has no speed feats to keep up with Kakashi before awakening his MS, and Kamui during the Pain Arc can be a real issue. However, if you want to lean more into the narrative than the feats themselves, that’s fine as well.
Kid Itachi=Kid Kakashi Pre Sharingan Itachi showing to make reactions that a Jonin like Mikoto could not make. If anything Kid Itachi is slightly above Kid Kakashi but can be argued much more these are equal rather than Pain Arc Itachi/Kakashi. This is a draw. 12 Year Old Itachi vs 12 Year Old Kakashi Itachi was a natural born heir to the Sharingan. Kakashi self admitted this several times in regards to his ability with the Sharingan in relation to Itachi and Sasuke. Regarding the speed advantage Sasuke was much slower than Naruto in their first fight but the 3rd Tomoe evened it out. Itachi was naturally more gifted than Sasuke and had another Sharingan over Itachi would self admitted he couldn’t compare in regard to the Sharingan. This is a draw or Itachi takes the win. ANBU Itachi vs ANBU Kakashi This is an easy win for Itachi. Itachi shortly after this defeated Orochimaru who a full grown Kakashi was terrified of. Itachi easily takes the win. Pain Arc Itachi vs Pain Arc Kakashi This is only a debate. One only needs to look at Kakashi vs. MS Sasuke. We KNOW this version of Sasuke was not even close to Itachi and yet Kakashi should’ve had a clear upper hand on an exhausted Sasuke and he didn’t. I don’t need to mention Tsukuyomi but you mentioned the Sasuke fight in defense of Kakashi. Itachi was clearly throwing the fight and it is wildly believed and narratively supported he allowed Sasuke to break out. Itachi wins easily. War Arc Kakashi is above Itachi but slightly and ONLY the version of Kakashi AFTER the fight vs Obito began and only obviously when he gets DMS. However let us be realistic you undersell Tsukuyomi GREATLY. If Kakashi gets hit by Tsukuyomi he is done. Naruto warns a perfect Killer Bee this who has a much better advantage against genjutsu than Kakashi. Loved the video but there are narratively implications you avoided and clear depictions. For example on top of the others mentioned in the Rescue Kazekage Arc it was 4vs1 against a 30% Itachi who was only gauging Naruto’s growth. He wasn’t trying to win the fight and this is abundantly clear when Itachi smiles at the end of the fight. Kakashi admits inferiority to Itachi narratively and objectively. In his own words Jiraiya was stronger than him and if Jiraiya was an equal to Orochinaru at best well we seen what Itachi did to Orochimaru. Kakashi is my favorite Naruto character and Itachi has one of the most toxic fan bases but this seemed very biased in several areas. Good quality video but extreme biases and narrative bending to give Kakashi the win.
I only deal in narrative implications if the feats and scaling themselves aren’t crystal clear. The scaling I used for every match is sound, but if you’re more of a narrative > feats person then that’s just a difference of opinion. But thank you for the love! Hope you’ll join my 1k celebration live stream! 🙏🏼
Well, no. Narrative has weight within the story. If what you argue is the case then Sasuke beat Itachi fairly which we know is far from the actual truth, narrative implications. Intentions matter. How? We know Itachi was not trying against Sasuke. We know Itachi was lying to Kisame about fighting Jiraiya. We know Naruto could not beat Pain without all the help he received. We can go on and on. Kakashi admits even in their initial encounter he knew Itachi was much stronger than him and questioned why he didn’t kill him. Narratively not only could have Itachi killed Kakashi he gave that impression while not trying to kill Kakashi. He was so much stronger than Kakashi of which Kakashi admitted and he wasn’t trying. At no point until LATE War Arc Kakashi does feats support Kakashi. His own ideology and inferiority to Itachi and characters weaker than Itachi supports he was never as strong or stronger than Itachi. You can’t twist feats and leave other feats out of a discussion and bend arguments to fit your own narrative which flies in the face of what has consistently been presented to us. I guess you can and it’s your video but it’s disingenuous. Itachi showed he was already capable of reacting with a Jonin like Mikoto who had a fully matured Sharingan before he was a Genin and you left that out. However you mentioned Kakashi graduation age in conjunction with the war whereas in the novels it was also stated the expedited need for soldiers was much more prevalent for Kakashi rather than Itachi, which indicates Kakashi graduation age was skewed more than Itachi. You left this out but used the Kakashi part to support your argument. You also conveniently misconstrued the amount of jutsu Kakashi in the war when Kakashi could’ve very well rested as well as having his chakra replenished. Instead of calling Kamui vs. Yata Mirror a wash because it is in an unmovable object, meet an unstoppable force, you used this as the basis for that argument when this Kakashi could not dream of landing a Kamui on Itachi. Again, you did not mention the Kakashi extreme struggle vs. exhausted and nearly blind Sasuke whom we know was nowhere near Itachi. If Kakashi was anywhere near Itachi level he should’ve been able to handle Sasuke quickly in the state he was in but he could not. We later find out the disparity in power between Sasuke and Itachi when EMS Sasuke is STILL arguably weaker than Itachi. Even if you don’t use the narrative, implications to support your argument the feats don’t support your argument either until late war arc where DMS Kakashi is undeniably stronger than every version of Itachi. Kudos on the video and getting to 1k.
@@Byuiso Narrative certainly matters, but not when the actual feats themselves prove otherwise. For example, the narrative implies Itachi is the best talent to graduate from the academy. However, we know for a fact that Kakashi has better feats from the time period before Itachi gained his MS. Therefore, Kakashi should beat him. Another example is Hiruzen. The narrative implies he’s the strongest Hokage of the first four. There are SEVEN statements saying this. However, during the war arc we saw what Hashirama was capable of, so we all agree Hiruzen loses to Hashirama.
I’ve replied to all of your comments and you seem like an anime-only fan. A lot of the stuff you brought up were just non-canon anime stuff. Also, you seem to outright ignore some of the WA scaling for Kakashi, like his Kamui being faster than 8th Gate Guy.
@@sageofthickcalves Aiit Aiit I admit I was a bit pissed while writing that 😅. Definitely not an anime-only fan dude Been watching the series for 12 years But I replied a comment of yours regarding the WA scaling for kakashi tho
Lemme get this straight you don’t know who win against Minato and Itachi and you don’t know who wins against Itachi and Kakashi but it’s a garantee Minato beats Kakashi😂😂😂😂😂😂 kakashi has absolutely nothing over Minato but unnecessary jutsu for differences of opponent but a OP opponent is still too much. Minato beats Itachi and Kakashi by himself
Kamui has been proven to not work on Minato, whereas that’s not the case for Itachi. Naruto isn’t a rock/paper/scissors universe, where a character > b character and c character > a character means c character > b character. The way their abilities matchup is important. I will say, I may have to retract my Minato vs Itachi outcome because there are some things I hadn’t thought about in regards to Minato’s strategy and Itachi’s use of the Kotoamatsukami. I do think they sort of hard counter one another, and their scaling is very similar, but Minato might actually have the edge.
@@sageofthickcalvesdidn't new info just come out that Minato can escape from kamui dimension since boruto it showed that I think? Also you said Minato vs Itachi would be a draw or Itachi barely winning at max difficulty.. but now you think Minato might win? What new info came out on that
That’s non-canon. In the novels (actually canon) he got dog walked by an Anbu member named Mukai Kohinata, who was a subordinate to Kakashi. Also, if we want to consider the anime only stuff canon, 5 year old Kakashi beat up 2 adult Chunin before graduating the academy lol. Oh and how in the world do you say Chunin Itachi > Jonin Kakashi just because he beat some random Anbu member??? You don’t even have to be a Jonin to join the Anbu so that nameless Anbu was probably just a Chunin.
![30 ชั่วโมงคนเดียว บนรถไฟชั้น 3 โซเวียต [Around The World Ep. 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MlE9boAVqDA/mqdefault.jpg)
Love to see the editing in this one, Beautiful Video. Keep it Up Brother!🐐
I appreciate you bro! Can’t wait to get our Madara video out 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
congrats on 1k
Thank you so much!
This video will help me to stop underestimating Kakashi too much. Thank you.
Hey I got you 🫡
Fantastic video with great analysis of feats over the series. Although I added my own opinion in a separate comment, I think your points are very valid and things could always flip in anyone's favor in the Naruto verse. Many battles could be contested in favor of the other despite the results in the series. Love the video. Please keep doing more. These are always such a great watch!!!
Thank you so much! I liked and responded to your breakdown 🙏🏼
I agree with most of the video. I do believe with Itachi's higher battle IQ he would probably win the V.S. battle where they're more relative to each other. But I agree with everything else; the war arc feats are absolutely insane.
I'd say Bee V.S. Kisame, Minato V.S. 3rd Raikage and Kakashi V.S. Guy would be interesting and great Versus battles.
See I lean Kakashi in terms of battle IQ, but I can see an argument either way.
Gonna write those ideas down 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
@sageofthickcalves oh man haha we'll have to disagree on that one, but maybe it's because Kakashi is my 3rd favorite character after Minato and Itachi but they're both certainly 2 of the smartest characters in these series.
And sweet! Looking forward to the next Versus battles 👊🏾
@@Samsation93 yeah honestly that’s my top 3 in terms of battle IQ right there. I appreciate you bro!
I’m a Kakashi fan, and a huge one at that, but narratively Itachi was always portrayed and depicted as someone superior to Kakashi. It’s a pain but if you have to go to great lengths in order to make a case for Kakashi, then you have a clear answer. I blame Kishimoto. That’s just my two cents.
That is a fair way to see it up until Itachi’s death, but once the War arc starts Kakashi gets cracked and that sort of portrayel is no longer visible
💯 the lore is clear that itachi is the superior shinobi for the majority of their respected careers.
When kakashi tells kid naruto that in the ninja world, there are shinobi who are younger than naruto but stronger than himself, a perfect example of this would be itachi, who at the age of 13, was an anbu captain and a member of akatsuki
I think the main reasons can't grasp this is because of how passive and pacifist his demeanor is, as well as him having interior motives and concern for konoha and its assests(shinobi).
But whenever we've seen itachi serious, he dogs on his opponent; orochimaru and deidara being an example of this. And in neither case did itachi even allow them to use their higher tier moveset', and he checkmates both with the most minimal output ofbeffort on his part.
The guy is subtly lethal beyond the surface every time.
I agree that throughout most of the story we see this is the case. However, there’s no argument for Itachi winning against War Arc Kakashi or beyond, and there’s no argument for him beating kid Kakashi without MS. The narrative is one thing, but the feats speak for themselves.
@sageofthickcalves the feats speak, and have always spoken, against your case.
You're just misrepresenting them to fit your false and skewed narrative.
What's worse of all is that I don't think you're a troll, I think you really believe your own fantasy 😂 kakatard through and through
That’s the thing, sometimes whether you favour feats, or narrative, or statements determine how you scale everything
To be honest if Kakashi was tagged immediately by the Deva path I’m not confident he wouldn’t also be tagged immediately by the totsuka blade once the Susanoo does come out. Also nobody can control the nine tails because it’s now bound by an eight sign seal inside Naruto, that’s why Edo Madara attempting to summon it makes Naruto feel pain but otherwise doesn’t work. I’m not even sure if sharingan genjutsu scaling with Bijuu is even easily quantifiable since tailed beasts are stated to be slaves for Uchiha with great visual prowess and even BoS Sasuke suppressed Kurama’s power inside Naruto’s inner world.
Pain arc kakashi being on par with itachi is severe cope
Well there are three problems here. First, Kakashi didn’t really get “tagged” by the Deva path. He attempted to trap him and get him with the raikiri twice and was hit with shinra tensei. So it wasn’t like the Deva path physically blitzed him or something.
Second, there’s no way to scale the Totsuka Blade’s speed above the speed or reaction time of Pain’s shinra tensei, so that carries over to Kakashi’s physical and reaction speed as well.
Third, regardless of the seal, Itachi himself believed that nobody could control the nine tails without MS. Sure, Sasuke could suppress half the nine tails while it’s already being suppressed by Naruto’s seal, but the FULL nine tails is a different story. So the fact that Obito was able to control Kurama with his base sharingan still creates a situation where he has arguably superior genjutsu to Itachi.
@sageofthickcalves obito didn't take full control of the kyuubi via base sharingan(alone) unless and only in combination with senju cells amping his sharingan. Either that or he indeed did use the mangekyou but it wasn't drawn in for obvious reasons.
It's canon that one needs to MS to control the kyuubi; the only reason obito's wasn't shown is because it would've been a huge spoiler to show his mangekyou design at that point in the story. You need to learn the concept of meta behind fiction and use that as a foundation to reach the most plausible conclusions instead of taking particular details, then separating them from context, and finally run marathons with them 😂
@@angelm365pain arc kakashi
@@st.statenel4088 his version of pain arc kakashi should be sniping headshots left and right by warping opponent's heads clean off via kamui.
Yet this op-ness has never been shown. Kamui isn't the instant win sage believes it to be.
hokage kakashi vs akatsuki members 🥶 🙏
Every single one gets badly slammed tbh
@@sageofthickcalvesthank you for responding 😄
@@KAKASHI-nx3jp anytime 🫡
Gotta say the Pain arc versions goes much more to Itachi tho
That Kakashi should be somewhat inferior to Hebi Sasuke or just on par with his base form, and Itachi could have won that fight very easily indeed, still Kakashi has a chance to kamui him but Itachi scales higher and has a lot of things in his sleeve
In the war arc I think Edo Itachi scales higher than Kakashi, but in this time it definitely can be a straight kamui gg this arc Kakashi really is so fucking OP
Not mad at this interpretation
First off, nice video! Second im DEVASTATED i couldnt be a part of this since kakashi is my favorite character in fiction lol
Thank you! I see your channel is growing steady so just wanna say congratulations bro 🙏🏼 We’ll get a collab in down the line for sure. Rn just getting this content for this month and January knocked out
I do have some disagreement. It seems like things were bended to make aloe of their interaction appear more close to make the argument fit kakashi.
1. I can’t offer much on kid vs kid because it’s true that kakashi’s feats are better although I simply feel sharigan to sharigan as kids that Itachi would take that. Reacting to lighting was a more common feat in naruto that one may not think. A blind and half dead Itachi reacted to Kirin.
2. You make their part 1 encounter seem like Itachi HAD to use MS or was fighting seriously with kakashi. Let’s just assume he was for arguments sake even though he was not really trying to fight kakashi, what in their encounter leads anyone to believe kakashi was forcing Itachi to use MS? It seemed like Itachi was toying with him and showed him tsukyomi to “drive home how much more powerful I am” even kakashi noted Itachi could have killed him if he wanted. That encounter was a stomp.
3. The interaction with the 30% clone cannot really be scaled. You can say kakashi had measures against itachi’s genjutsu when his method was used on a CLONE that only had 30% of itachi’s power. That encounter in my opinion only drove home their power difference because Itachi was still leading the fight at only 30% of his power.
4. It was a major stretch and falsity to state pain arc kakashi ties with Itachi during his arc with sasuke. Kakashi was still sloppy with his Kamui and it’s too unclear on Kamui vs yata mirror. Other than unclear Kamui, kakashi has NO measures against Itachi here.
5. War arc vs edo again was too one sided. Kamui is the only answer? You think he could snipe all of Itachi in one go? I could just as easily say the totsuka blade GG’s kakashi but that would be too one sided. In all honesty kakashi doesn’t start winning against Itachi until DMS in my opinion.
💯 🎯 🔥 ! ! !
This video being "bend" to one side is an UNDERSTATEMENT!
A lot of advantages put on kakashi. Even the age he put kakashi were 9 years old when he get sharingan is unlogical at all. Like both obito and kakashi should be the same age. And obito body crushed happens at 12-13
Mmmm I have some disagreements with some of your points
1. How is reacting to lightning a “common” thing in Naruto especially part 1? Common is an overstatement imo but it’s definitely not unheard of. Regardless, kakashi tagging lightning is still impressive.
2. You’re leaving out a lot of context. Itachi definitely HAD to use MS to end the fight quickly as Kakashi literally countered everything itachi did up to that point. He countered Itachi’s water fang with a water wall and set up a clone as a decoy to itachi’s exploding clone. He only got tagged because he saved Kurenai. Itachi realizes it’ll take too long to do this with Kakashi and he already stated he didn’t want to “start a war” and he wanted to end things quickly before reinforcements came, this was the way to end it quickly. Itachi didn’t kill kakashi because he wanted to know how kakashi knew about the akatsuki I think chapter 260 or 262 you see the interaction. So yeah, kakashi did technically force him to use MS however if he wasn’t trying to end it quickly he could still possibly win
3. Eh I don’t disagree with this but it is worth noting that Kakashi wasn’t rusty and was confident he could fight itachi. Kakashi isn’t one to overestimate himself and he also doesn’t underestimate opponents especially someone like Itachi. It was a 30% clone, but saying itachi lead that fight is wild. Maybe against Naruto, but kakashi again countered itachi (his clone) .
4. Sloppy with Kamui lol? He was much better and was able to accurately Kamui rockets to save Choji and a nail aimed towards his head shot off by pain. Kakashi keeping up with Pain even for a slight bit is impressive enough to place him against SICK itachi. He already was able to counter a younger healthier itachi in part 1 while being rusty himself. What could a sick itachi who rolls over dying after one suppressed tsukuyomi gonna do against a stronger kakashi who has more experience against Itachi’s techniques? Kakashi wipes
@@QGUU you are mistaken in your answer. Itachi was not forced to use MS. Kakashi even stated when hadn’t seen his full power and that Itachi was playing around. The reason he didn’t kill kakashi was him being a double agent. If Itachi was serious he could have ended kakashi without using MS in that battle granted it would have took longer.
Kakashi only countered a 30% clone. That’s not an achievement and you cannot derive anything of note for kakashi in that fight. Kakashi may not overestimate but he will charge into battle against those way stronger than him I.E. his first confrontation with orochimaru.
Yes kakashi was still sloppy and he only had a good three attempts at it before depleting his chakra. I doubt any of those three attempts could get past the yata mirror. It’s heavily implied obito used izanagi after hit with itachi’s trap. Itachi would recognize immediately that kakashi’s technique was just a variant of obito’s. Itachi casually slaps war arc kakashi.
I think it was established by Itachi himself that Kakashi faced his hand into him having to use the MS. Also, Kakashi was sloppy with Kamui In the Pain arc? Tagging rockets and a tiny nail launched by Almighty Push mid-flight is sloppy? And you don't think he could beat Edo Itachi with Kamui? He was literally about to snipe the head off of the Gedo statue, I feel like he could snipe Itachi's whole body. And even if he doesn't get it all in one go, he was low-key spamming Kamui in the war arc. What's stopping him from just playing cleanup while Itachi reforms himself?
Wish we could’ve actually seen them fight. We have to remember though we find this out as the story progressed Itachi had no intentions on killing anybody or really any motive for being in the Leaf but to check on Sasuke but by doing that he also had to stay undercover. Itachi knowing who Kakashi is(even tho this is a weaker version of Kakashi than the one he knew) knew that a fight with him and the other jonin would be long and drawn out which completely goes against his reasoning for being there. That being the case Itachi had to make it seem like he wanted to kill kakashi while also not doing it because he didn’t want to blow his cover… he needed his most potent technique to do so and that has always exaggerated the gap between those 2 imo.
Hey nice video. But 19:46 in the light novel it's stated that kakashi posseses sealing techniques and also defeated a user possessing either s06p chakra or weapon
I'm pretty sure kakash takes the win
Thanks for the love! Just one correction, though. It’s never stated that he has new sealing jutsu in the novels. I do think it’s reasonable to assume he has powerful sealing, but it’s never actually stated, unfortunately.
Truthfully? What you do is hard af. Especially for characters like these two. Mainly because Kishi uses them to progress the plot therefore their on screen match ups with anyone has very defined shakles. Example: team mates to protect. Plot to protect, their own secret not so secret objectives. Illness. Chakra reserve. Mental state.
Kakashi is a character that was made to be an almost direct mirror to the main characters but is NOT the MC. his purpose for the story is to set the base expectations and to guide the MCs. And to make them shine more. Kishi is so damn lucky with this because Kakashi even when not given much satisfying fights remains to be compeling and is very well loved by the fandom
Itachi on the otherhand has the same purpose but as the SEVERUS SNAPE of the Naruto Verse😅. Given main villain limelight and badassery moments on the 1st half and then relegated to moving the plot along on the side all the while grounding it and giving it depth. But again. He isnt the MAIN VILLAIN. Not even a villain at all.
So! Its hard to make an objective power scaling for them because canon is an unreliable narrator for them.
Itachi needs to be 'perceived' as OP while Kakashi needs to be great but not OP enough to not need the MC. Not that they arent very strong but they are needed for balance.
Which is why! Im glad you put in hard fact written by Kishi and not just based on on screen fights.
"Underneathe the underneathe" and all that. Mix with the actual battle assesments is... wtf dude. Did i read the same manga and fight sequence as you?!
I actually think the most questionable for this match up is the genjutsu aspect. Mainly because Itachi has a very genjutsu centered fighting style and the question of Kakashi's resistance to it is still debateable.
But yeah i may also still be incapable of being objective here because i am stuck on itachi's genjutsu strength. Because you are right. If kakashi is capable of nulling Itachi's genjutsu then it wont be impossible to imagine him winning this even if we remove Itachi basically being half dead and or are already dead in the equation.
Oh and i love them both too much for this
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed the vid! 🫡
I love Kakashi but he ain't winning in the pain arc, actually he should win against almost anything only using Kamui haha but for some reason he doesn't use it against pain for example, same goes for the war arc fight, Itachi is easily at the level of EMS sasuke, kakashi never gets that far before the DMS thing, again he should indeed win by Kamui alone, about hokage kakashi idk, haven't gone beyond shippuden just yer
Kamui is really broken so maybe you are right and he should technically win most of the fights but Itachi is way stronger at everything else in almost every scenario
We need to put more respect on kakashi’s name! 💪
🔥🔥🔥
This is going to be a long comment, so bare with me.
Kinda funny that Kakashi pushed Itachi into using Tsukuyomi (while carrying Asuma and Kurenai fodder asses, no less), while Orochimaru got folded by base Sharingan genjutsu.
I believe there's a statement about Naruto Generations game cutscenes being canon. In that case, we know for a fact that Kakashi's clone was able to somewhat preassure Jonin Minato and even touch a bell during the bell test.
You can even make a further case for ANBU Kakashi's superiority over Itachi (pre-MS, that is) based on Kakashi's somewhat implied superiority over Kohinata, who fought Itachi and Shisui at the same time and would've won if not for Shisui using his own MS. And *if* we're using Kakashi ANBU filler arc (certain elements of which are undoubtedly canon), we've seen Kakashi repeatedly defeating young Yamato, someone skilled enough that Danzo entrusted him with a mission of assassinating Hiruzen.
Kamui ignores transparent obstacles, we've seen this when Kakashi Kamuied the Eight-Tails while inside Kurama's avatar. As long as Kakashi can *see* Itachi, he can Kamui him. And he doesn't need Kamui to deal with Susanoo anyway, he can simply travel underground right beneath Itachi's feet, bypassing Susanoo altogether.
Worth pointing out is that before his fight with Edo Itachi, Naruto split his chakra between (at least) 12 clones which he sent to different battlefields. So the speed gap is much bigger.
Another Kamui feat that doesn't get much attention is when Kakashi managed to Kamui an arm of Gedo Mazo and blitzed Minato's perception.
People hate to see the Kamui GG argument and understandably so. However, the same people have zero problems with the Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susanoo GG argument. Pure hypocrisy.
Kakashi fully intended to Kamui "Madara" during the Five Kage Summit arc right of the bat. Furthermore, full-body Kamui is literally Kakashi's only reliable way of permanently dealing with an Edo. So yeah, Kamui GG. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.
Overall, great video. Keep up the good work.
Great breakdown 🫡
this vid needs more views !!!
Ayeee I appreciate you! 🙏🏼🫡
Didn't they say that the Sharingan eyes were stronger when together? So I assume once Kakashi and Obito were on the same battlefield, Kakashi's Sharingan feats went way up.
Thanks for the video!
@@ohjoytabjoy no problem at all!
The statement refers to them being used in conjunction, like when they both use Kamui on Obito to outspeed the TSOs
Love this.
Love YOU 🙏🏼
W Vid
In terms of their part 1 encounter, I think Itachi does edge out Kakashi here without MS. Although Itachi did 100% need MS/Tsukuyomi to end the fight as quickly as he did
As far as Pain arc goes, Kakashi most likely outlasts Itachi here. If not an off guard Kamui could do the trick as Kakashi was able to snipe that missle despite comitting the the jutsu long after the missile was chasing Choji, therefore he had less time to tag it. He either pierces the Yata Mirror or snipes behind it
People downplay the Kamui to the orb because he had Gaara bring him near it but don’t mention that he was losing vision. If anything both factors even out to show he’d be capable of the exact same feat with a healthy MS from farther away.
Lastly, Boruto Era Kakashi is more likely to have sealing jutsu for reanimation at this point IMO. Considering how much the Edo Tensei pissed him off in the first place, I think he’d prepare himself and the village for that jutsu.
Thank you! I think this is all pretty spot-on. The part one thing definitely has multiple interpretations. I just think Kakashi being confident he can handle Itachi’s genjtusu base sharingan to base sharingan, paired with the statement about being forced to use MS, leads me to believe that Itachi needs MS to beat Kakashi there. But it can go either way for sure.
@@sageofthickcalvesI can see your point though. Itachi didn’t even notice Kakashi’s presence until Kakashi’s clone made the save for Asuma. They then react to each other. Kakashi than gets somewhat tagged by the exploding clone because he made the save for Kurenai. Definitely a lot to go over here
People gotta understand kakashi got mentally nerfed from the day his dad died. He was chronically depressed for most of his life. It seems to me after the timeskip is when he starts to care more about life. Like he talks about how he’s been training hard again, and how he’s really starting to like Naruto durring the rasenshurikin training.
So after he gets that final closure from meeting his dad again in the pain arc, the nerf is lifted, and kakashi’s full potential comes out.
According to that logic, itachi was mentally nerfed exponentially worse due to killing his father, mother, and lover, participating in the actual genocide of just about his entire clan, and manipulated his beloved baby brother to hate him with all his heart, and be exiled from his beloved village for the rear of his life.
With a mental nerf like that, then we've see even less of a fraction of itachi's true potential than we've even believed previously; and we will never see his true potential.
Honestly though, I've suspected for a long time that itachi's terminal illness stemmed from the incomprehensible trauma of killing your own loved ones.
Databook 4 has 2 statements that outright imply this to be true.
The first says, “There are no longer doubts in Kakashi.” This is in reference to him coming to peace with how things turned out with Obito and himself.
The other statement says, “As a friend, as a teacher, as a shinobi… Kakashi’s mind wavered.” This is in reference to before he comes to peace with everything with Obito.
For pain arc I feel like we don’t know kakashi’s genjustu level because for all we know he could have been practicing like a madlad right before the war arc. I feel like it feels right to give itachi the edge but pain arc kakashi scrapped with the devah path so idk. I didn’t even know kamui works like that so the more you know!
Yeah it was a ton of fun doing research for this! As far as the genjutu, another way to say Kakashi resists it is because Itachi felt he was “forced” to use tsukuyomi against Kakashi when he only had a base sharingan. That at least opens the door for the idea that Kakashi with MS should be able to cancel out Itachi’s genjtusu
What I’ve always found so crazy in the community is how it’s only ok for Itachi to have imaginary feats based off hypotheticals be taken as facts vs people with better feats. These comment sections are golden man lol.
100% 🤣
Is kamui even considered an attack? Attacks usually damage/hurt a person. Kamui isnt really an attacking jutsu more so a space time ninjutsu simillar to the flying raijin technique and the summoning jutsu. So could the susano'o block a space-time ninjutsu even though it isn't an attack?
Great question. Even if it is registered as an attack, I think there’s just a lot of evidence for Kamui being able to get behind it or just counter it outright.
Itachi has TWO 3 tome sharingan he could react to kakashi chidori every trip. Kakashi only wins at pre sharingan and DMS
He doesn’t have the speed to move out of the way regardless
I am also unsure if the missions would be as dangerous or would really be that wide as Itachi has been taken to battle fields and is arguably more book smart
Kakashi was a higher ranked shinobi than Itachi and literally fought in a war, which Itachi did not. It’s undeniable that Kakashi went on more difficult missions
Pain arc kakashi who’s inferior to Jiraiya winning 50% of the matches against pain arc itachi is insane. I’d argue hebi sasuke could beat kakashi high/extreme dif. Itachi is quite literally early EMS Sasuke level+ considering his intellect and overall fighting ability. Losing to someone inferior to the sannin which itachi scales massively above even at age 14 is strange. But that’s the only gripe I have with this. Good video
@@Derrick20121000 yeah I dropped this video like 7 months ago, so some of my opinions have changed. But I appreciate it!
Kakashi use kamui six times against obito and Kakashi was using kamui against kcm Naruto 2
I've been waiting for this vid 😂
And though i wholeheartedly disagree with you and your scaling logic, i still enjoy your content
Sick and legally blind itachi still stomps pain arc kakashi 😂
#sorrynotsorry 😅
I appreciate you bro! Love seeing you engaging on here 🙏🏼
Yeah I just think there are no direct lines of scaling outside of their skirmish in early shippuden, which implied to me that they’re physically relative. Then it just comes down to MS abilities. If you think Kakashi’s Kamui isn’t developed enough at that point to make a difference, that’s fair. I just think it is based on his heavily fatigued use of Kamui against Pain’s ashura path missile. If you flip this to Itachi, though, I think it’s fair to flip Hokage Kakashi the W against Edo.
The disrespectful on itachi. Minato says lighting blade has a huge weakness it would be obvious to itachi. Half dead sick itachi was able to genjutsu and speed blitz sasuke at the every beginning of their fight and tanked kirin. That sasuke should be above kakashi.
Kakashis most impressive feats in the war arc come from acting as a support class and being buffed by Naruto. Itachi slams all but dms slams itachi.
Just so much wrong here. I’ll go point by point.
- The Chidori weakness is only when Kakashi doesn’t have a sharingan. So that doesn’t apply for all but 2 of these matches, and one of those is one where Itachi also doesn’t have a sharingan, while the other is one where Kakashi wouldn’t use Chidori. So it’s totally irrelevant.
- That Sasuke doesn’t have MS and still battled that Itachi to a standstill in base sharingan genjutu. Kakashi resisting Obito’s genjtusu is arguably the best genjutsu defense feat in the entire series. His genjutu defense is verifiably better than anything Itachi can replicate.
- Kirin was tanked by the susano’o, so that’s irrelevant.
- Hebi Sasuke is not above Pain Arc Kakashi. It’s arguable at best, but Kamui is basically an automatic win con vs that Sasuke.
- In order to argue that Itachi beats WA Kakashi, you have to prove that he’s faster than 8th Gate Guy, since when Kakashi outsped 8th Gate Guy with Kamui, he wasn’t buffed by Naruto and he was going blind. So prove that. If you can’t, you have to concede that he cannot dodge Kamui and, thus, would lose.
@@sageofthickcalves First, kakashi can’t use lighting blade without the sharingen.
Second, earlier to mid shippuden kakashis kamui is too inconsistent couldnt even kill deidara with it. sasuke is way faster than deidara and itachi blitz a stronger sasuke.
Third, war arc kakashi is no where on 8th gate guy lvl. Naruto buffed kakashi with his chakura so much so kakashi was ready to kamui the 10 tails he couldn’t do that on his own.
Plus itachi was prepared to fight obito someone with a better kamui. (Love your video and I enjoy interacting with TH-camrs I like to watch. Love the vs battle keep it up!)
@@mattmcwhirt4146 I appreciate the love! Thank you for engaging and being so positive 🤙🏼
I think we agree on a lot of stuff, but the conclusions you come to are what I disagree with.
- Yes, Kakashi can’t use raikiri effectively without the sharingan. However, that won’t matter at all for any of the matchups but two. The first one (kid Kakashi vs kid Itachi pre-sharingan) doesn’t make a difference because Kakashi just blatantly has better feats than Itachi at that point regardless of that. He also has to be at least as fast as weightless Lee at that point to have the physical speed capable of using Chidori, giving him a decisive speed edge regardless. The second one (Hokage Kakashi vs Edo Itachi) doesn’t matter either because Kakashi has replaced raikiri with shinden. However, once he gets the sharingan, he verifiably has a MASSIVE speed amp over Itachi, up until part 1, due to the cutting a lightning bolt feat. So, as far as the matchups where it could matter, it really doesn’t because of other factors.
- I agree Kakashi’s Kamui pre-Pain Arc isn’t good enough to be a factor, but sniping Pain’s Ashura Path missile (hypersonic) while HEAVILY fatigued, gets his Kamui where it needs to be to pose a threat. Also, Kakashi is verifiably faster than Deidara physically. That’s why Deidara decided to stay away from him.
- Kakashi was no longer buffed by Naruto’s chakra at that point in the war. We see him huffing and puffing, low on chakra, literally right before Guy goes into the 8th Gate. So Naruto’s chakra isn’t affecting him in any way at that point. Therefore, his Kamui speed, while going blind and heavily fatigued, is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s combat speed. Even if you want to disregard that, Kakashi’s Kamui speed was faster than KCM 1.5 Naruto’s and even perception blitzed Rinnegan Obito. This was before Naruto gave him any chakra. So unless you can prove that Itachi is a blitz tier above KCM 1.5 Naruto and Rinnegan Obito, you cannot prove he’d be able to dodge the Kamui. Therefore, Kamui is an automatic win condition.
- Obito’s Kamui is only better in the sense that it has the passive warping effect, not in its ability to warp opponents. In terms of that, Kakashi’s Kamui is FAR superior, since by that point it’s just as fast, if not faster than Obito’s, and he can do it from long range. The two Kamui variants just provide very different obstacles for Itachi, and honestly Obito’s is easier for his move set to counter, since Obito has to get close. Kakashi can literally just snipe Itachi’s head off from a distance if he wants to.
@@sageofthickcalves I feel like we agree on basically everything but war arc kakashi vs itachi. I do think it’s close. you mentioned pain arc kamui was able to snipe attack at hypersonic that wouldn’t work itachi is more consistently scales to reacting to light speed attacks (kirin or during the sasuke fight shuriken hand signs faster than sasukes sharigen can perceive same sharigen that can react to ay moving at light speed). But kakashi kamui is only at or above light speed used defensely 5ks Sasukes susanoo arrow should blitz ay but kamui can react to it if it was that fast offensively why didn’t he try to snipe sasuke.
I will say in the war arc kakashi did snipe kcm Naruto rasengan to hit obito I could see how you could scale that above itachi but that combo attack was planned and kakashi was acting as a support class rather than directly engaging. The 8th gate guy feat is weird everyone even 6th gate lee is reacting to guy but again as support class. In conclusion itachi is more of a battle genius only has to see a jutsu once to know the weakness, more modest scaling they are relative in speed with itachi having more hax than kakashi.
(Dms kakashi without susanoo slams itachi tho)
Thank you I appreciate your time. This is a fun experience. In my mind war arc kakashi is a lot closer to itachi than I previously thought.
@@mattmcwhirt4146
- So the problem isn’t that Itachi can’t react to light speed attacks, it’s that he can’t MOVE at light speed. The only reason why Kamui is relevant during the Pain Arc fight is because Itachi and Kakashi are relative in base, which would likely lead to Itachi needing the susano’o. Since his susano’o physical speed is pretty slow, Kamui should work against it as a win condition. However, I’m not opposed to you disagreeing with that, since it’s not really provable either way.
- As far as the war arc, there’s just no debate. Since Kakashi’s Kamui during the war arc is verifiably relativistic +, and Itachi verifiably cannot move that fast, even if he can react to it (I’m not sure he could, since Obito got perception blitzed by it) it wouldn’t matter. He HAS to move out of the way of the Kamui to counter it, and he just can’t. It’s just like Sasuke vs Lee in part 1. His sharingan could see what was happening, but his body couldn’t do anything about it.
- It honestly doesn’t matter if the KCM attack was planned or not. Kakashi still would have to perceive and follow Naruto’s movement, as well as being able to activate and complete the Kamui quicker than Obito could perceive. That definitively scales Kakashi Kamui above what Itachi can physically react to.
- The issue with the 8th Gate Guy feat is just the fact that Kakashi was able to warp the hole in the TSO in a shorter time than it took for Guy to finish his blitz of Madara. The speed at which Kamui can be completed is the issue for Itachi. If Kakashi is able to complete a Kamui that fast, Itachi just wouldn’t have a shot of moving out of the way. So, even though 6th Gate Lee could SEE what was going on, the same would go for him. He couldn’t move fast enough to counter Kamui either, since you have to physically move out of the way of the attack.
- I just outright disagree with the assertion that Itachi is more of a battle genius than Kakashi. They’re at LEAST in the same tier in terms of battle IQ, with either one of them having an argument over the other.
- Yeah, Kakashi and Itachi are likely relative in terms of physical speed, with Kakashi having an argument for being above him, but that’s not the problem. Kakashi’s Kamui speed and precision puts him multiple blitz tiers above Itachi. The argument has never been Kakashi physically blitzes Itachi, although he likely does with raikiri. The argument is Kamui blitzes Itachi, and there’s no argument against it. You just have to prove that Itachi can move out of the way before Kakashi can complete the Kamui and he has no speed feats to back that up.
I will say, if Kakashi’s Kamui was off the table, he might lose against Itachi, Edo or not, since he doesn’t have a counter for the susano’o without it. I just think it’s pretty blatant that Kamui is a broken move haha.
Thanks for chatting! Feel free to engage on here anytime and I’ll chat with you 🙏🏼 Make sure to have your notifications on so when I go live you can hop in and I can answer your questions on there as well 🤙🏼
(Pain arc kakashi vs Sick Itachi)
Kakashi said that Jiraya was stronger and Itachi stomped hydra Orochimaru that should be at worse equal to sage jiraya.
That Itachi stomps Kakashi low diff
(Btw why you say Pain Arc Itachi? He is dead 😂)
Agreed
Killing an off guard, monologing Orochimaru with an attack that Orochimaru literally laughed at before realizing what it was, holds literally ZERO scaling implications. There’s no way to argue it was a legit blitz, so there’s no way to argue it can tag Kakashi. Also, it was via sharingan hax, which Kakashi has a counter for (as detailed in the video) and Orochimaru doesn’t.
Itachi has been above sannin since he was a teen, and pain arc kakashi is still below sannin.
It's clear as day, tbh but the kakashi glazing is hilarious
@@angelm365 Kakashi overall is probably slightly below the sannin there, but his Kamui gets him above them imo
@sageofthickcalves itachi has been above sannin since he was a teen; and what you fail to realize is the meta behind fiction and storytelling:
the encounter with hydro oro was narratively and thematically coherent with what was stated by orochimaru himself long before their final encounter, and that statement is that teen itachi is far stronger than orochimaru.
Your view, on the other hand, is so skewed, biased, and incoherent that it's actually hilarious.
War arc kakashi vs hokage Minato
Probably Minato because he has a tag on Kakashi already
A lot of biasness and advantages on kakashi. Even some kakashi fan disagree the scaling.
Kid kakashi vs kid itachi. It depends on if itachi has awaken his sharingan or not. If no kakashi highly take this, but if so itachi highly take this. But the battle could go either way since both has excellent iq and jutsu. Kakashi is more of ninjutsu builder while itachi is more skilled in ninja tools like clones & shurikenjutsu & also his own fire nature
Winner: Draw
12 itachi vs 12 kakashi. At this age, Itachi is promoted as the anbu captain and pretty much mastered every sharingan abilities, shurikenjutsu, crow clone, taijutsu. Well, kakashi only get his sharingan that year. Good speed feats for his age but still struggle with doing a chidori. He hasn't copied as much jutsu yet. So far kakashi hasn't skilled much in s class jutsu yet
Winner: itachi
Akatsuki ms itachi vs anbu kakashi. Skilled in his ms powers and his genjutsu. Literally can blitzed kakashi at this point with his ms abilities and possibly base genjutsu since kakashi doesn't has the chakra and stamina to keep up with his sharingan
Winner: itachi
Pain arc kakashi vs Sick itachi. At this point, he could use 3 chidori a day with his chakra level. Could use 1 kamui attack which likely drain lot of his chakra. Sick itachi could do 1 tsukuyomi, amateratsu through whole building & susanoo before he cough his blood. Obito stated that ms itachi is still lot more powerful than ms sasuke until he obtain itachi eye. While kakashi almost get killed by blinded injuried sasuke and struggle.
Winner: sick itachi
Edo itachi vs war arc kakashi. The improvement so far for kakashi is kamui. But mostly likely kamui and chidori couldn't do much on itachi. Itachi could either evade it with clones or genjutsu or his speed.
Winner: edo itachi
Edo itachi vs dms kakashi. Kakashi biggest feats r his perfect susanoo & having six path chakra from obito. At this point, he surpassed itachi in almost entire aspect.
Winner: kakashi
My man, did you watch the full video? A lot of the stuff you’re saying makes it seem like you didn’t.
For example, I showed why Kakashi got his sharingan at 9, not 12. I also did break up kid Kakashi Vs kid Itachi pre and post sharingan into two separate categories. It just doesn’t seem like you saw that.
@@sageofthickcalves Honestly, I watch but a lot of cap there as I stated. Here's the things that doesn't make sense, becuz it stated that very clearly obito, kakashi, Rin, might guy and others r all at the same age. It wouldn't make sense he is younger than obito at this point.
@@jackylim3948 How do you explain them graduating on the same day with Kakashi graduating at 5 and Obito graduating at 9? Their graduation ages are repeated more than once, so it’s not a one time error.
Also, Minato says, during the kanabi bridge mission, that “5 years ago” is when Kakashi’s dad died and from that day forward Kakashi was always following the Shinobi rules and regulations. Since Kakashi for sure graduated at 5 (databooks, Itachi midnight novel, etc) and we see him in the war arc flashback scolding Obito about the rules when they first meet Minato, we know that he was like that at least from the time they graduated, if not before. This means Kakashi’s father died before Kakashi graduated from the academy, making him no older than 10, but likely 9, when the kanabi bridge mission occurred. We know Obito “died” at 13, so this is another solid piece of evidence for Kakashi being 9 there.
@@sageofthickcalves U know wat very simple, one of the episode I'm pretty sure Obito makes it very very cleared and said about kakashi "he is the same age as us. And he did get graduation at 5, but there's no explanation he get straight up 4 years younger than obito like U said. And there's no explanation wat he's doing around that 4 years. He could be placed in another team squads there until obito and Rin graduated and being put in minato team to balance their power
@@sageofthickcalves So watever it said, the truth is kakashi get his sharingan at 12 years old or probably 13 years old. The age u stated is obviously headcannon
I would argue that 12v12, Itachi would win as he regularly spars and contends well against Shisui the Teleporter. Kakashi speed and Raikiri is a challenge, but Itachi has the feats to react at this point. Kakashi's Sharingan chakra drain would have him tap out quickly at this stage. In the Pain Arc, it's a no contest in Itachi's favor. Pre-Hebi Sasuke is stated to be over Kakashi. Itachi is stated to be over Hebi Sasuke if he seriously fought and didn't drag out the fight. Itachi at this point is also able to stomp Orochimaru (not nerfed). Kakashi struggles to compare himself to Orochimaru's level. For War Arc vs Edo; did the jutsu record for Kakashi account for the 2 times his chakra was replenished by the bijuu (8 & 9)? Also, the kamui feat with Guy was from close range and facillitated by Gaara, not a great feat in comparison. Edo Itachi is reacting to a Sage, stated to have significant reaction feats over KCM1 at least (KCM2???). Also, the databook statement about Madara on 9Tails control is not accurate. Because Obito was still around and he highly coveted Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami, both technically in Itachi's possession. His ambitions lead him to different outcomes but he could have done so if he so wished. Edo Itachi also would not have to worry about chakra consumption or dodging attacks and could stay on the offensive adding pressure over Kakashi. It should be a definitive win for Itachi. Before his death, even Obito worried about a coup by Itachi. Hokage Kakashi could rival Edo Itachi in stamina and offensive power, but his speed and reaction would be significantly lower without the Sharingan. Giving Itachi WAY too many opportunities to counter or completely overtake Kakashi by taking advantage of Edo immortality + MS pre-cog + MS genjutsu that Kakashi can no longer resist.
Itachi also winning in Part 1 + early Shippuden as stated in the video obv for the extra 2 counts. Kakashi only winning both pre-sharingan and later with DMS (top of the verse for a brief period).
I count Kakashi vs Itachi; 2:7 = Itachi as the victor.
On a separate note, how sad that both of these incredible prodigies never achieved their true potential. Itachi was split between his talent and his personal/political goals and died extremely young at 21. Kakashi in his melancholy outright stopped training, outside of copying other's jutsu in various elements (some redundancy), for 20 years! If both focused more on there talents and improving their jutsu and chakra pools. They would both be absolutely unrivaled in the verse. Both could potentially be the greatest Sage's as well if given the opportunity. Which would also counter the blindness of the MS while bolstering their chakra and jutsu.
Totally agree with your last point, but we do sort of see Kakashi as Hokage reach his potential since he’s on the level of six paths characters. But yeah the both definitely got nerfed throughout the series.
As far as the matchups, here’s what I’ll say.
- 12v12 Itachi doesn’t have lightning timer feats. Shisui and Itachi sparred like 35 times and Itachi won 14, BUT they weren’t using their sharingan. Shisui was famous for his body flicker proficiency, which was massively amped by his sharingan perception. He also obviously wasn’t using his MS. So Shisui’s downgrade is greater than Itachi’s. Because of this, we can’t confidently scale Itachi’s speed to Shisui’s. Therefore, if we can’t prove he is fast enough to react to a 1/3 lightspeed raikiri, it’s chalked up as an automatic win condition.
- Pre-Hebi Sasuke is never stated to be over Kakashi. In fact, when Kakashi is in the hospital right before training Naruto to enhance his rasengan, Kakashi implies that Naruto learning this new technique would give him the power to beat Sasuke and MAYBE even surpass Kakashi himself. This is after saying Yamato told him everything about Sasuke. So he knows how strong Sasuke is and still believes he’s above him.
- Pain arc only goes either way because of Kamui. If the yata mirror stops it, Itachi gets an easy win. If it doesn’t, Kakashi gets an easy win. Itachi definitively is above Kakashi overall at this point, but Kamui is so broken that it swings the balance massively. I also am not so sure that Orochimaru is above Kakashi at this point. He probably is, but Kamui would also be a problem for him.
- The 5x Kamui, 8x raikiri, 2x shadow clones, and 1x mud wall all happened BEFORE Kakashi got additional chakra. So that was all him. One of those was warping away a rasengan out of KCM 1.5 Naruto’s hand while Naruto was moving at full speed. This perception blitzed Rinnegan Obito. Since we know that KCM 1.5 is stronger than KCM1 (due to Kurama freely sharing his chakra), and KCM1 Naruto was able to easily react to Edo Itachi, we can safely get the Kamui speed above Edo Itachi’s speed. This means Kakashi can definitively hit Itachi with Kamui pretty easily.
- The 8th Gate Guy Kamui feat is still impressive because of the SPEED at which the jutsu is completed. Also, the only reason they were so close is because Kakashi was going blind. He outright says they have to get close because he’s losing sight in his left eye. In no way is it ever shown or implied that Kamui’s speed is increased or decreased based on the distance Kakashi is from his target. So the feat still stands as blitzing 8th Gate Guy’s combat speed. I don’t think I need to explain why that puts Kamui WAYYYY above Itachi’s speed.
- Itachi does react to sage Kabuto, but there’s no way to scale that Kabuto above KCM1 or KCM2 Naruto. Itachi also gets blitzed by that Kabuto, but having an Edo body allowed him to be hit without consequences. So it’s unclear whether or not Kabuto’s speed is superior to Itachi’s or not, and there are no direct lines of scaling from Sage Kabuto to war arc Naruto. So there’s no feasible argument to be made there. So, again, there’s no argument to be made for Itachi being able to dodge Kamui, meaning he loses.
- Minato permanently severed the contract seal between Obito and Kurama, which is why he couldn’t control Kurama anymore. It’s also never stated that he coveted the Tsukuyomi or Kotoamatsukami. If he wanted Tsukuyomi so badly, he could’ve had it. He literally had access to Itachi’s dead body and could take his eyes for himself instead of giving them to Sasuke. So he clearly didn’t want it that badly.
- Hokage Kakashi is stated to have increased his chakra by “orders of magnitude”, meaning his chakra is at least 100x higher, and that ALL of his combat abilities have “significantly increased” from the time he fought Obito and Madara, meaning that his durability, speed, etc have all increased. We actually see this with Kakashi being able to tangle with and react to Kashin Koji. This Koji is a rival to Delta. Delta swapped hands with a suppressed SPSM Naruto. So at BARE MINIMUM, Kakashi speed and reaction time are on par with base adult Naruto. This Naruto reacted to and blocked attacks from Fused Momoshiki. Momoshiki in base was considered a “Kaguya level threat”, and pushed Naruto and Sasuke to put in quite a bit of effort. So, in terms of combat and reaction speed, Fused Momoshiki ≈> Kaguya > Juubi Madara > Rinnegan Madara > KCM2 Naruto > KCM1 Naruto ≈ Edo Itachi. So Hokage Kakashi is potentially 5-6 blitz tiers above Edo Itachi. He unironically blitzes and one taps. You should read the Retsuden novel. It’s crazy how much stronger Kakashi is. Unfortunately, he may not be able to seal him, though, so if you just go based off of feats, Kakashi should still lose despite MASSIVELY out scaling Itachi.
@@sageofthickcalvesThat Yamato didn't see full power hebi Sasuke, with SM2 e etc... But i agree that Kakashi was stronger at that point.
@@val0liveira Kakashi wouldn’t know about CM2 from Naruto, so he’d probably be factoring that in on top of what intel Yamato gave him
Kakashi and hebi sasuke are different fighters anyway. Even if sasuke was more chakra and durability, kakashi knows practically everything about sasuke, and would outplay him. Kakashi should be able to see through any of sasuke’s genjutsu, and set up a Chidori after some shadow clone games, popping outta the ground, water style jutsu is good against sasuke.
@@spit-fire 💯
Itachi is one of those characters that a lot of Naruto fans like to pretend he can do anything, but in reality there are plenty of people who surpass him.
People forget that Itachi was nearly brainwashed by Kabuto while trying to activate Izanami. If Sasuke wasn't there, Kabuto would've beaten him.
There's still people who believe Itachi could beat Madara or easily handle Minato and that's where it gets too far.
If I had to sum it up, he scales around upper tailed beast level at his peak.
That version of kabuto would've murdered kakashi even with sasuke's help.
Also, itachi was specifically sparing kabuto's life as he fought him so that he can cancel the edo tensei technique.
It's doubtful kabuto would've done as well against a bloodlusted itachi. He'd end up like Nagato did. Dead.
RIght, but you explained it dumb. Sasuke did not help Itachi lmao. Itachi aslo needed Kabuto alive to reverse the edo tensei. Madara is a stretch but we don't know how he would deal with Tsukyomi. Minato however, It is pretty fair to give it to Itachi high diff. He is definitely meat ridden though.
With Sasuke in the way and without killing him, Itachi completely defeated Kabuto. And yeah Kakashi would never win against that Kabuto.
Itachi as Kid was supposed to be as good as Minato and Kakashi, and then he got a Sharingan on top of that.
We don't know how far Itachi got in his search for power. When we see Madaras perfect Susanoo it leaves us with the question. He only defeated his opponent by the necessary margin, so had he had to fight Madara, would he have pulled a bigger Susanoo out?
@@jxnior4292 You just proved my point.
1. Sasuke did help Itachi. Kabuto cut him in half, had a Reanimation tag ready to use and Sasuke blocked it. I don't know how you can watch that fight and pretend Sasuke was not helping Itachi. Sasuke literally freed Itachi from Kabuto's genjutsu.
2. Everyone brings up that Itachi wasn't trying to kill Kabuto, but Kabuto wasn't trying to kill them either, He wanted to capture Sasuke and regain control of Itachi. They both had handicaps.
3. Tsukuyomi is a strong genjutsu, but it's still just a visual genjutsu. Madara has stronger eyes and more endurance due to the Eternal Mangekyou. Itachi went blind using all three abilities in his fight with Sasuke. And given how fast Madara is, there's no guarantee he could even hit him with it.
4. Everything about Minato's arsenal was basically designed to battle the Uchiha Clan. He has sealing jutsu, is too fast to hit and his Rasengan could clash with a restrained full 9 tails.
Stop it.
@@jhulianvincentutermohlen287 He can't pull a bigger Susanoo.
Madara's complete Susanoo was a result of having the Eternal Mangekyou. The best Itachi could do was the armored Susanoo.
The only person who progressed a Susanoo to the completed stage with regular mangekyou was Kakashi, who was quite literally possessed by a ghost via the Six Paths chakra.
There is no next stage, the armored one is his limit. The game version doesn't count.
Itachi has already shown that he can’t be compared to anyone in the anbu at that age…
Kakashi has no answers to itachi’s various preemptive genjutsu…
kakashi uses clones initially
Itachi used EXPLOSIVE clones initially.
Itachi has superior stats to most forms of kakashi
And kamui is negged if the target is too fast for it’s warping which is why kakashi couldn’t just snipe tendo even though it’d have ended the fight if he did… it’s only useful on targets that don’t have the dexterity to dodge it…
Early War arc kakashi had trouble dealing with severely weakened almost blind sasuke.
Itachi easily scales to mastered kcm naruto through EMS sasuke.
Later in the war kakashi gets to keeping up with kcm1 naruto and fought alongside kcm minato…
Point by point.
- That’s never shown or stated
- Itachi outright admits that he needs MS genjutsu to handle Kakashi, so his base sharingan genjutu isn’t enough
- Itachi has superior stats to ANBU Kakashi (only after Itachi awoke MS), part 1 Kakashi, and pre-war Kakashi. Prior to awakening MS, and from the war arc and on Kakashi has better stats definitively.
- Yup, and Edo Itachi isn’t faster than 8th Gate Guy, so he wouldn’t be able to dodge WA Kakashi’s Kamui.
- That’s not the war arc bro that’s the 5 Kage Summit. There’s a very clear power creep in the war arc, and like I said, Kakashi’s end of war stats (pre-DMS) are significantly higher than his early war stats. For example, Kakashi’s physical speed in base is on par with 3rd Gate Guy early on, but he’s relative to KCM Minato toward the end. You can’t just ignore feats bro lol
- EMS Sasuke is outright stated to be stronger than Itachi in every way
- KCM Minato scales to KCM2 Naruto in terms of speed. Kakashi’s speed being above KCM Minato’s means he’s multiple speed blitz tiers above Itachi
Itachi wins most of these battles especially war arc vs edo. Those Kamui statements are very false as we see it countered in the manga and anime.
We only see it countered via speed and Obito countering it himself. Since WA Kakashi’s Kamui speed is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s movement speed, you’d have to make the argument that Itachi is faster than 8th Gate Guy, which he’s not. He has no shot against WA Kakashi.
@@sageofthickcalves Kakashi Kamui isn't that fast to keep up with those speeds it needed to be amped by having both close together while Obito had a six paths boost. All Itachi needs to win the fight is just one gaze one simple look. Not to mention since he's a sharingan user he can the chakra forming in Kakashi eye.
@@diamantemrobinson Kakashi wasn’t working in conjunction with Obito when he warped the hole in Juubidara’s TSO shield, nor was he amped by six paths chakra. That was all Kakashi WHILE he was going blind. As far as genjutsu, Kakashi has resisted a much stronger genjtusu user in Obito, as I stated in the video. Also, seeing the chakra in Kakashi’s eye wouldn’t matter because the Kamui activation is faster than Itachi can react.
@@sageofthickcalves Guy VS Madara has many plot holes regarding speed. All of them even Gaara are blatantly reacting to them. Itachi is definitely faster speed and reaction wise than Gaara, Lee, and Kakashi all of which show they could intervene in that fight. They were outside the battle not directly in it. When face to face against Madara, Kakashi and Obito were sitting ducks stating Kamui wasn't fast enough and has to sync it up. So no it's fails at that level of speed when directly involved.
@@diamantemrobinson They’re not plot holes. It’s called a power creep. It happens in anime all the time. You have to prove that Itachi can move faster than 8th Gate Guy in order to prove Itachi can react to it. There’s no way around this. Guy leaves his feet, Kakashi activates the Kamui, he completes the Kamui, and then Guy lands his attack. This means that Kakashi activated and completed his Kamui in a shorter amount of time than it took 8th Gate Guy to cover a few meters. Therefore, Kakashi’s Kamui speed by the end of the war, WHILE going blind, is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s combat speed.
Kid vs Kid Kakashi wins clear
Kid kakashi vs Kid Itachi (both w/sharingan) kakashi wins
Anbu Kakashi vs Anbu Itachi with MS.. Itachi wins with MS without it he loses
Pain Arc Itachi wins
War Arc Kakashi wins
💯
You forgot to mention that Kakashi's genjutsu can stalemate obito's genjutsu, when obito's genjutsu can control the 4th mizukage / a perfect jinchuriki. Perfect jinchurikis are almost immune to genjutsu. And obito can regularly use it on yagura like he was using kotoamatsukami on him.
I actually mentioned it twice. Once during the Pain Arc section and once during the War Arc section. I didn’t bring up Yagura, but I did bring up Obito’s control of Kurama
Yagura isn't a perfect jinchuriki.
@@z.e.d4037 it was stated that yagura can perfectly control his tailed beast just like killer bee
@sageanimations2463 No, that was just danzos assumption, Yagura just controls the three tails chakra, he's not in synch like killer bee is.
@@z.e.d4037 danzo’s pretty smart so I would consider his words. He just doesnt have any screentime cuz by the time we saw the 3 tails, it was already free meaning yagura died prior to shippuden.
5:55 You can actually argue Shisui is faster than Kalashi is by this point as he is implied to be unrivsled in speed so the fact those two are relative then you can just argue it wouldn't matter if Kakashi's lightning feat is 1/3 lightspeed plus Shisui despite being poisoned is faster than Danzo and Sasuke by blutz tier according to you so...
Shisui is likely only faster via body flicker. Also, that’s a different Danzo who’s amped by Hashirama cells and sharingan perception.
@@sageofthickcalves i have seen people argue he is faster due to his eye not being as strained also Danzo is still a rival for Hiruzen and survived 3 great ninja wars.
@@Redoren966 yeah I don’t agree with either of those. The Hiruzen stuff was always shown to be pretty one sided tbh
@@sageofthickcalves Why? What makes you suggest that there is no evidence for it
@@Redoren966 Danzo outright states he never caught up to Hiruzen
If he can just kill Itachi with Kamui, why didn't he kill some of the pains?
@@aramburubautista3466 he was trying to conserve chakra in order to get intel on the paths of Pain and inform the rest of the village. This is stated
Kakashi is shown inferior to Sasuke in the arc after pain assault (five kage). Sasuke is said to not surpass itachi until he reaches EMS so based on that I’d give the win to itachi (pain arc)
@@ashfrompallet8741 why is Kakashi shown inferior? He’s mental nerfed there and still stalemated Sasuke
Sick Itachi slams Pain fight Kakashi. Kakashi was barely able to react to fatigued MS Sasuke, who is below Itachi.
Kakashi reacted to Sasuke’s physical speed with no issues. He barely reacted to the susano’o arrow, but there’s no way to scale Itachi to or above the susano’o arrow.
@@sageofthickcalvesthe Susanoo’s Arrow is waaaay faster than Sasuke too lol
This isn’t true at all
@@jason15212 100%
Did you reference 30% clone Itachi cloning Kakashi as them being comparable in stats. If that’s not what that clip was from my bad but if so that’s an atrocious take. Itachi literally reacts to a full speed raikairi and puts base Naruto who is comparable to this Kakashi under genjutsu with one look. Itachi scales over strongest Sannin, Kakashi fights two paths of Pain and finds it inconceivable that Jiraiya faced all six.
Also this is the same Kakashi who in the next arc gets pressed by a blinding Sasuke who is later comparable to a base Naruto who restrains Kakashi. You can argue this Kakashi was fatigued from Kamui but my counter is even prior to being fatigued and using his Sharingan he was still on the back foot against a blind Sasuke who is comparable to the same Naruto.
Great question.
So I said they’re somewhat relative to one another, which I believe is demonstrated in the fight. But first let me just address a couple of things you said.
1) Kakashi never uses his raikiri in the manga fight. That’s an anime-only addition that does make it look atrocious. However, because it’s anime-only, it’s not canon. In the manga version, Kakashi’s clone (he splits chakra evenly amongst clones so it’s 50% of his chakra) is able to take Itachi by surprise with his earth style, dodge one of his attacks from close range, and even restrain him long enough for Naruto to land his rasengan. So yeah I think relativity is fair, although I’d still give Itachi a slight edge.
2) Itachi does scale over the Sannin, but Kakashi was WILDLY misinformed when he said that. Jiraiya quite literally never took on all six paths at once in combat. He faced off against all six for a moment, but that’s when he trapped one of them in the barrier jutsu. He didn’t actually engage in combat with them. Then, Pa outright says that he’ll die if he takes on the other 5, which is exactly what happens. So Kakashi saying Jiraiya taking on all 6 is insane comes from being misinformed on what actually happened. I do believe Sage Jiraiya should be above this version of Kakashi, but not by a lot in terms of their speed. I’d actually argue raikiri Kakashi, even at that point, has greater speed than sage Jiraiya. Kakashi is straight up stated to have the greatest speed of all Konoha shinobi in databook 2, which Jiraiya is in.
3) Naruto isn’t comparable to Kakashi at that point. They’re fresh off the bell test there where Kakashi dog walked Naruto and Sakura simultaneously and Naruto had to cheat to win.
4) The Sasuke vs Kakashi fight is actually 3 arcs later, not one, but it’s still a bit disingenuous to say he got pressed by him when discussing physical speed. Kakashi was only ever pressed by Sasuke’s susano’o arrow, which is significantly faster than Sasuke’s physical speed. We know this because Danzo reacts to Sasuke’s physical speed more than once, but gets blitzed by the susano’o arrow. Also, the version of Sasuke that fought Kakashi was the strongest version of Sasuke we had seen because he had received numerous hatred amps, which allowed for his susano’o to evolve during their fight. He did begin experiencing blindness at the end of their fight, but we have no evidence of him experiencing blindness early on. I do agree that full power Itachi should be stronger than full power FKS Sasuke (the one Kakashi fought), but that doesn’t do anything for physical scaling.
5) Base Naruto took Kakashi by surprise by restraining him and then rushing forward himself. I see no evidence to suggest Kakashi couldn’t have gotten out had he wanted to. Even if you argue Naruto is physically stronger, we know a 50% Kakashi clone restrained a 30% Itachi clone, so that just lends credence to the idea that Kakashi and Itachi are physically relative. At the end of the day, though, it’s more about speed than strength when I talk about them being somewhat relative, and there’s no real evidence against that.
@@sageofthickcalvesSasuke is exhausted by the time he fought Kakashi even Obito advices on it.
@@Redoren966 he’s strongly implied to be stronger there because of hatred amps. I mean his susano’o literally evolves in their fight. The susano’o arrow Kakashi reacted to should be faster and stronger than the ones used against Danzo
The fact that you said Kakashi lowest speed feet is around gated guy when he is nowhere near Guys actual speed when it comes to leg movement, minato and Naruto use ninjutsu or bijuu for speed guy uses his raw leg speed and amp it with the gates
We see them moving at the same speed on panel
@@sageofthickcalves that’s not how you measure speed, it’s a the picture of them speaking to each other, coming up with a plan then guy activates it but it’s showing him activating it immediately while in the anime, they both run forward at moderate speeds then guy activates his gates. Still on the same paste no need for a race.
@@sageofthickcalves even guy using the seventh gate impressed Gara who noted that his movements were unhuman levels had already witnessed other speedsters before seeing guy. This was him in the seventh gate.
@@Noblesavage31 Kakashi and Guy start their charges at the same time, Kakashi with raikiri and Guy in 6th Gate, then they land their attacks simultaneously (could argue Kakashi actually lands his first because of the paneling) and they covered the same amount of distance. There’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t be going full speed, since they don’t both attack the same enemy. That’s about as definitive as speed scaling gets. They also rush in and save Naruto simultaneously with Guy in either the 3rd (most likely) or 5th Gate. There’s also no reason for them to not be going full speed since Naruto was literally about to die lol.
As far as 7th Gate Guy, Kakashi could perceive his movements, so he’d be able to Kamui snipe him, especially considering his Kamui is faster than 8th Gate Guy’s attack speed, as shown later.
Another piece of evidence for Kakashi being on that tier is him reacting to black Zetsu and covering the same amount as ground as KCM Minato in the same amount of time. This means at least their combat and reaction speeds are relative.
@@sageofthickcalves that’s really a bad analysis. The only reason guy is able to use such techniques as morning. Peacock is because of how fast he moved his fist. The initial start up to that attack is actually a flaming kick that sends the enemy into the air. The kick is on fire because of the sheer speed and power, breaking the air just as the peacock technique itself, this literally means guy moves his limbs at an incredible speed with power,
Kamui is a space Jitsu simply activated by looking at someone this can happen instantaneously, so comparing it to someone who is moving laterally is a bad comparison, did you forget when Madara used TSO to attack Kakashi right as he kamui obito (twice the speed since both eyes were working) guy intercepted the orbs,
The attack that you mentioned was precisely timed that way so that they can make Obita become in tangible or kick him just as Naruto is being saved
Lightning blade is a thrust guy actually moves at inhuman speeds. How do you think a technique like hidden lotus is possible? Can kakashi do this?
Why would I believe kamui can hit guy lol
Sick Itachi slams Pain fight kakashi. Kakashi was barely able to react to a fatigued MS Sasuke, who is below Itachi.
He had no issue reacting to him physically, but did barely react to his susano’o arrow. However, that version of Sasuke is growing stronger by the moment because of hatred amps, and there’s no way to scale Itachi above Sasuke’s susano’o arrow speed. So it’s just not a good argument, especially when we saw Kakashi easily react to Itachi earlier on.
Itachi is very much implied a bit superior to Kakashi at that age considering he cleared the forest if death faster while he was solo while Kakashi had Obito and Rin and he is also smarter as he was second only to Minato at the time. If we go by the anime Orochimaru a genius himself never acknowledges Kakashi but acknowledges Itachi. We also have evidence to suggest he is likely physically stronger as well considering he destroyed a boulder with one punch before his academy days faster than his jonin mother could notice
So there are a few problems here.
1: Kakashi and Itachi are both called once in a generation prodigies, with Itachi probably having the better hype statements, but Kakashi having superior feats from a similar age
2: Kakashi likely would’ve completed the forest of death MUCH faster without Obito and Rin. We know, even after becoming a JONIN, that Kakashi regularly calls out his team for holding him back, specifically Obito. And when you look at the skill levels of Rin and Obito, do they REALLY seem like Chunin level combatants to you? Well, in the Kanabi Bridge mission, they’re both Chunin. Why is that, especially when they lost in the final round of the exams? Likely because Kakashi hard carried through the exams.
3: Orochimaru sees Kakashi as a prodigy, he’s just not interested in his physiology because oro likely has better genetics.
4: Itachi punching the boulder and shattering it isn’t a feat of physical strength, but rather a feat of chakra control. He even thinks this to himself in the novel you’re referring to.
5: By the time Itachi was just making Chunin, Kakashi was already a Jonin who had mastered at least 2 changes in chakra nature, along with both the rasengan AND the Chidori. He was also stronger than Itachi when they were both in the ANBU, up until Itachi got his MS. That’s why Kakashi was his superior, and why Itachi saw him as such in the novels.
@@sageofthickcalves 1 Why superior feats matter when intent says otherwise?
2 So does Sasuke and considering kakashi is an asshole just like sasuke I would take that with a grain of salt. Plus it doesn't help that we don't see kakashi really doing much to imply he was 3 be 1 people like Itachi did. And yeah they do seem as chunin as they surviving the third great ninja war and not being dead. It also doesn't help he still did it faster than Minato who is definetely a bigger prodigy than kakashi ever was
3 He was much more impressed by Itachi as seeing what he did amazed him and left in shock but not kakashi who he was laughing off and even implied Sasuke had slightly better eyes then the Itachi at his age
4 Yes and he was still extremely young and was amazing a jonin uchiha like who survived 2 great ninja wars so imagine what an chunin Itachi could punch like
5 Chidori was incomplete as other people were able to react to him plus rasengan we are not sure on how strong it is and the 2 chakra we have no real information to imply they would play a factor as he doesn't really use anything besides chidori. Are you sure it was due to his power because kakashi implies from what i read was due to having better circumstantial ranks
@@Redoren966 1: For the same reason we know Hiruzen isn’t stronger than Hashirama.
2: By the time of the Forest of Death, Sasuke recognized he needed Naruto and Sakura. Kakashi didn’t even come close to recognizing that until 3-4 years AFTER passing the Chunin exams. If you think Obito pre-sharingan is a Chunin-level shinobi, idk what to tell you lmao. Bro was literally crying on the battlefield. And as far as Minato being a bigger prodigy than Kakashi, that’s definitely arguable. However, Minato graduated in a time of peace, while both Kakashi an Itachi graduated in or around a time of war, which led to both of them being promoted quicker, as stated in the Itachi daylight novel. So the Minato example is a false equivalency, just like the Sasuke example.
3: Orochimaru only ever reacted to Itachi after getting the MS, which is the version I had beating Kakashi in this video. He never said anything about Itachi pre-MS. On top of that, Orochimaru saying that Sasuke has better eyes than Itachi at the same age doesn’t really matter. That would just make Itachi look worse because Itachi had the 3 tomoe at 12 lmao.
4: Kakashi amazed Jonin several times. That doesn’t matter
5: That does not matter. Even incomplete, Chidori is an A rank jutsu. Name one A rank jutsu that Itachi had at 9 years old. Also, the rasengan’s power doesn’t really matter either. It’s an A rank jutsu regardless, which, again, Itachi doesn’t have as a 9 year old. The point I was making is that Kakashi up through them both being 12 displayed feats far beyond what Itachi did. He not only has a wider arsenal of jutsu, he also has higher ranking jutsu. Kakashi has the experience advantage as well, since he would’ve been a Shinobi for longer, as well as the physical advantage, since he’s a lightning timer. Legitimately, the only thing Itachi has over Kakashi up until he get MS is genjutsu.
@sageofthickcalves 1. Actually it's prime Hiruzen who is considered that there and is no anti feats against and considering people are aware that Madara lost to Hashirama we have no real thing implying prime Hiruzen isn't superior.
2. So there is nothing implying he didn't help not to mention we got nothing to suggest he was fodder. Obito does have feats to suggest he is and he is also not implied to be that weak because we have seen genin get killed a lot in ninja wars. Minato was in the second Great ninja war as nagato who is not much younger than Minato fought in it. Not to mention if that were just makes it more impressive that he was considered unrivaled in terms of greatness by everyone who has met him and Kakashi and is considered far more notable than Kakashi was in terms of genius and talent.
@@sageofthickcalves 3 Going by the manga yes but in the anime he saw Itachi before that and was amazed. Why not? Also Sasuke is strictly stated to have better eyes than anyone in his clan bar Madara
4 When?
5 So is multi shadow clone and Naruto mastered it despite being an idiot and Sasuke who is openly stated to not be more talented than Itachi still is able to master chidori so I am not sure why you are saying that somehow equates to master level prodigy. Itachi also has strictly better strength feats too because of the bolder feat alone. Also him being a lightning timer we are unsure at what age he did plus also experience wouldn't matter that much as Itachi is directly implied to be more intelligent so...
Minato's from isnt kcm2 but kcm1
It’s debatable, but it’s likely more like KCM2 or KCM 1.5 than KCM1. We know this because Kurama is freely sharing his chakra, which isn’t how KCM1 works. KCM1 is when Naruto forcibly takes Kurama’s chakra, but he can’t use his own. KCM 1.5 is when Kurama is cooperating and freely giving more chakra. KCM2 is when they combine their chakra pools. So it’s likely either KCM2 or 1.5, even though it looks like KCM1.
@@sageofthickcalves actually its kcm1..
The kcm naruto used dureming the 1st half of the war was an incomplete version due to the fact that kurama was draining naruto's chakra ...then while fighting jyubi and it clones naruto got access to what's called mastered kcm ( which btw is the real kcm1 ). And that's exactly what Minato had access to
@@patsander5634 While fighting against the bijuu, Naruto has the conversation with Kurama that prompts Kurama to give him chakra freely and his form doesn’t change, which is what people call KCM1.5. Either way, Minato had access to Kurama’s chakra and it doesn’t change much
@@sageofthickcalves agreed
I think you made mistake in counting,ot was 2-0 for kakashi,and than 2-1,and than draw batrle in pain arc,and you said 2-3 for itachi?
I counted the part 1 and early shippuden skirmishes in there, but didn’t go over them because we already saw them
@@sageofthickcalves ah i get it now
7:02 He does by being comparable to Shisui
Shisui is never stated to be a lightning timer and Itachi is not comparable to him. In the novels they spar without the sharingan (likely the thing that made Shisui so good at the body flicker) and Itachi only wins 11 out of 35 matches lol.
@@sageofthickcalves He is still considered the fastest in body flicker and is directly implied capable of kidnapping Hiruzen who is definitely several tiers above Kakashi. Also we have no evidence his Sharingan made him be better at teleporting. Not to mention the fact Itachi was still comparable is not great
@@Redoren966 you should go back and read the novels. Yes, he’s considered the greatest with the body flicker (by the Uchiha clan, so there could be some bias), but that’s WITH the sharingan. Itachi and Shisui sparred WITHOUT using their sharingan. As far as being able to kidnap Hiruzen, it wasn’t a one-man job. The plan they put together relied on a team of the most elite Uchiha. Also, it’s heavily implied he would’ve needed Kotoamatsukami.
@@sageofthickcalves Want me to debate you on discord on it then? Also considering Shisui was known world wide as Shisui the teleporter while Kakashi is more well known for his sharingan then him cutting a lightning bolt I am not sure that would be that insane in Naruto world
Kid Kakashi takes out Kid Itachi pre-sharingan but with sharingan, i can see them knocking each other out but im going to favor Kakashi due to Chidori, Rasengan, and ninja hounds. Anbu Kakashi loses to Anbu Itachi because well he took the title of captain from him at 13 so yeah. Pain Arc, I see another tie with this one favoring Itachi because of Suusano. Edo Itachi takes War Arc Kakashi and DMS/Hokage Kakashi slaughters! Thats what i think!
Well he didn’t take the title of captain from him. He became a captain of his own team. Also, Edo Itachi isn’t fast enough to dodge Kamui from WA Kakashi
@@sageofthickcalves Edo Itachi stills slams. Any Susanoo attack would do the trick and if WA Kakashi uses Kamui on said attack, Itachi could close the distance and hit him with Amaterasu. WA Kakashi can spam Kamui but it's not like he doesn't run of chakra and he was going blind, so I see edo Itachi taking it more times than not.
@@revalier3670 Prove that Itachi is faster than 8th Gate Guy. Then you can prove he can react to Kakashi’s Kamui. If you cannot prove that Itachi is as fast as or faster than 8th Gate Guy, you cannot prove that he reacts to Kamui.
Bro is trippin on this one
Which matchups do you think are wrong?
@@sageofthickcalves no cap alive itachi washed any pre war arc kakashi lol
@@SoullessFN He just has no speed feats to keep up with Kakashi before awakening his MS, and Kamui during the Pain Arc can be a real issue. However, if you want to lean more into the narrative than the feats themselves, that’s fine as well.
@@sageofthickcalves yeah your just wrong on this bro lol
@@SoullessFN what lightning timer feats does pre-MS Itachi have?
Kid Itachi=Kid Kakashi Pre Sharingan
Itachi showing to make reactions that a Jonin like Mikoto could not make. If anything Kid Itachi is slightly above Kid Kakashi but can be argued much more these are equal rather than Pain Arc Itachi/Kakashi. This is a draw.
12 Year Old Itachi vs 12 Year Old Kakashi
Itachi was a natural born heir to the Sharingan. Kakashi self admitted this several times in regards to his ability with the Sharingan in relation to Itachi and Sasuke. Regarding the speed advantage Sasuke was much slower than Naruto in their first fight but the 3rd Tomoe evened it out. Itachi was naturally more gifted than Sasuke and had another Sharingan over Itachi would self admitted he couldn’t compare in regard to the Sharingan. This is a draw or Itachi takes the win.
ANBU Itachi vs ANBU Kakashi
This is an easy win for Itachi. Itachi shortly after this defeated Orochimaru who a full grown Kakashi was terrified of. Itachi easily takes the win.
Pain Arc Itachi vs Pain Arc Kakashi
This is only a debate.
One only needs to look at Kakashi vs. MS Sasuke. We KNOW this version of Sasuke was not even close to Itachi and yet Kakashi should’ve had a clear upper hand on an exhausted Sasuke and he didn’t. I don’t need to mention Tsukuyomi but you mentioned the Sasuke fight in defense of Kakashi. Itachi was clearly throwing the fight and it is wildly believed and narratively supported he allowed Sasuke to break out. Itachi wins easily.
War Arc Kakashi is above Itachi but slightly and ONLY the version of Kakashi AFTER the fight vs Obito began and only obviously when he gets DMS. However let us be realistic you undersell Tsukuyomi GREATLY. If Kakashi gets hit by Tsukuyomi he is done. Naruto warns a perfect Killer Bee this who has a much better advantage against genjutsu than Kakashi.
Loved the video but there are narratively implications you avoided and clear depictions. For example on top of the others mentioned in the Rescue Kazekage Arc it was 4vs1 against a 30% Itachi who was only gauging Naruto’s growth. He wasn’t trying to win the fight and this is abundantly clear when Itachi smiles at the end of the fight. Kakashi admits inferiority to Itachi narratively and objectively. In his own words Jiraiya was stronger than him and if Jiraiya was an equal to Orochinaru at best well we seen what Itachi did to Orochimaru.
Kakashi is my favorite Naruto character and Itachi has one of the most toxic fan bases but this seemed very biased in several areas. Good quality video but extreme biases and narrative bending to give Kakashi the win.
I only deal in narrative implications if the feats and scaling themselves aren’t crystal clear. The scaling I used for every match is sound, but if you’re more of a narrative > feats person then that’s just a difference of opinion. But thank you for the love! Hope you’ll join my 1k celebration live stream! 🙏🏼
Well, no. Narrative has weight within the story. If what you argue is the case then Sasuke beat Itachi fairly which we know is far from the actual truth, narrative implications. Intentions matter. How? We know Itachi was not trying against Sasuke. We know Itachi was lying to Kisame about fighting Jiraiya. We know Naruto could not beat Pain without all the help he received. We can go on and on.
Kakashi admits even in their initial encounter he knew Itachi was much stronger than him and questioned why he didn’t kill him. Narratively not only could have Itachi killed Kakashi he gave that impression while not trying to kill Kakashi. He was so much stronger than Kakashi of which Kakashi admitted and he wasn’t trying.
At no point until LATE War Arc Kakashi does feats support Kakashi. His own ideology and inferiority to Itachi and characters weaker than Itachi supports he was never as strong or stronger than Itachi.
You can’t twist feats and leave other feats out of a discussion and bend arguments to fit your own narrative which flies in the face of what has consistently been presented to us. I guess you can and it’s your video but it’s disingenuous.
Itachi showed he was already capable of reacting with a Jonin like Mikoto who had a fully matured Sharingan before he was a Genin and you left that out.
However you mentioned Kakashi graduation age in conjunction with the war whereas in the novels it was also stated the expedited need for soldiers was much more prevalent for Kakashi rather than Itachi, which indicates Kakashi graduation age was skewed more than Itachi. You left this out but used the Kakashi part to support your argument.
You also conveniently misconstrued the amount of jutsu Kakashi in the war when Kakashi could’ve very well rested as well as having his chakra replenished.
Instead of calling Kamui vs. Yata Mirror a wash because it is in an unmovable object, meet an unstoppable force, you used this as the basis for that argument when this Kakashi could not dream of landing a Kamui on Itachi.
Again, you did not mention the Kakashi extreme struggle vs. exhausted and nearly blind Sasuke whom we know was nowhere near Itachi. If Kakashi was anywhere near Itachi level he should’ve been able to handle Sasuke quickly in the state he was in but he could not. We later find out the disparity in power between Sasuke and Itachi when EMS Sasuke is STILL arguably weaker than Itachi.
Even if you don’t use the narrative, implications to support your argument the feats don’t support your argument either until late war arc where DMS Kakashi is undeniably stronger than every version of Itachi.
Kudos on the video and getting to 1k.
@@Byuiso Narrative certainly matters, but not when the actual feats themselves prove otherwise. For example, the narrative implies Itachi is the best talent to graduate from the academy. However, we know for a fact that Kakashi has better feats from the time period before Itachi gained his MS. Therefore, Kakashi should beat him. Another example is Hiruzen. The narrative implies he’s the strongest Hokage of the first four. There are SEVEN statements saying this. However, during the war arc we saw what Hashirama was capable of, so we all agree Hiruzen loses to Hashirama.
Yeah these arguments are more tailored towards fitting kakashi…
I’ve seen a few vids like this..
😑
I’ve replied to all of your comments and you seem like an anime-only fan. A lot of the stuff you brought up were just non-canon anime stuff. Also, you seem to outright ignore some of the WA scaling for Kakashi, like his Kamui being faster than 8th Gate Guy.
@@sageofthickcalves
Aiit Aiit
I admit I was a bit pissed while writing that 😅.
Definitely not an anime-only fan dude
Been watching the series for 12 years
But I replied a comment of yours regarding the WA scaling for kakashi tho
Do i get first comment? 🤔
I believe so!
@@sageofthickcalves 💛
Lemme get this straight you don’t know who win against Minato and Itachi and you don’t know who wins against Itachi and Kakashi but it’s a garantee Minato beats Kakashi😂😂😂😂😂😂 kakashi has absolutely nothing over Minato but unnecessary jutsu for differences of opponent but a OP opponent is still too much. Minato beats Itachi and Kakashi by himself
Kamui has been proven to not work on Minato, whereas that’s not the case for Itachi. Naruto isn’t a rock/paper/scissors universe, where a character > b character and c character > a character means c character > b character. The way their abilities matchup is important.
I will say, I may have to retract my Minato vs Itachi outcome because there are some things I hadn’t thought about in regards to Minato’s strategy and Itachi’s use of the Kotoamatsukami. I do think they sort of hard counter one another, and their scaling is very similar, but Minato might actually have the edge.
@@sageofthickcalves😂😂😂
You have to do damage control to save face. Now everyone and their mama stomps on itachi so that kakashi may reign supreme 😅
@@angelm365 How is this damage control? People are allowed to change their opinions upon uncovering new information
@@sageofthickcalvesdidn't new info just come out that Minato can escape from kamui dimension since boruto it showed that I think?
Also you said Minato vs Itachi would be a draw or Itachi barely winning at max difficulty.. but now you think Minato might win? What new info came out on that
@@oscarperez5539 Kamui is a sealed dimension. The Otsusuki dimension isn’t stated to be.
Minato’s use of clones to test the susano’o should work
I get itachi the win
Itachi alr defeated an anbu captain at 8 mid diff soooo nah chuunin itachi > jounin kakashi
That’s non-canon. In the novels (actually canon) he got dog walked by an Anbu member named Mukai Kohinata, who was a subordinate to Kakashi. Also, if we want to consider the anime only stuff canon, 5 year old Kakashi beat up 2 adult Chunin before graduating the academy lol. Oh and how in the world do you say Chunin Itachi > Jonin Kakashi just because he beat some random Anbu member??? You don’t even have to be a Jonin to join the Anbu so that nameless Anbu was probably just a Chunin.