Vintage U-87 vs Stam SA-87 vs Warm WA-87 Shootout! (HoboRec Bull Sessions #31)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2017
- Made a test between some U-87 style microphones with some interesting results.
Want to download test files? Go here:
mailchi.mp/e42b7ccae096/hobor...
Thanks to Karro for doing the vocals, the song was by Left Over Wine by Melanie Safka.
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Great video man! Helps a lot.
I'm amazed how close the SA 87 and the U87 are. Great shootout!!!
Nice test. Well done.
Great Shootout man
Stam has hit the mark! With the Sowter transformer and great capsule, it is certainly close enough and a great price.
Love this shootout! :D
Can´t you please do a "how to build" your own DIY U87. Just like the video with the ribbon microphone! :)
Great comparison. I preferred the Stam SA-87. Recently Warm Audio has released the Mark 2 version of their WA-87 copy, so it might be worth revisiting if you can get your mitts on one. Thanks.
Very good review , the Stam is very impressive
Nice shootout!
Yeah, very close between the Stam and the U87. WA sounded good too, if slightly more modern. I should imagine a bit of eq would get them closer still.
Great job! Thank you! Damn that Stam is aweseom!
Yeah the boost in the high end of the wa87 makes it more articulate. I love the sound of that mic for vocals. Nothing compared to it yet in my opinion.
been lusting after the stam...will get one soon God willing
The Stam 87 is quite good... I gonna but the sa 47 man~ can,t wait
Loving your Vintage 87 that's old school from my early days doing VO's in Studios. Stam is so damn close, whereas the Warm is a little brighter with more forward mids. Time to compare the new Warm 87 I hear it's more like your Vintage.
The intro mix sounds just awesome. Guitars have great tone. Cymbals sound perfect. Everything clear. Nothing buried.
+Mutant Baby oh, that’s really nice of you. 🙏
Great video! SA-87 is close in tone but slightly boxed in compared to U-87's openness. WA-87 clearly sibilant and harsher on the higher mids to highs. Did they fix this with the WA-87 R2? The vintage U-87 has this magical quality of smoothing out vocals and making them sound so musical .. unmistakable open and creamy sound .. no wonder its the holy grail.
How would you compare the Microphone-Parts DIY 87 to the Stam Audio 87? Which one has your preference?
Put it this way, if you tracked a song starting with the Neumann and at some point edited in the rest of the track with the Stam you wouldnt know that 2 different mics were used.
If you did that with the Warm you totally would.
I own a Gauge ECM-87 and it's amazing! You should totally check them out.
Are they really a clone of the u87? I know micorphone-parts.com have some mod kit for them to fix some circuit issues.
Holy shit the SA87 is so close to the original
you just sold me this mic.
Haha, guess Stam will be happy about that ;)
Is "microphones" misspelled as "microhpones" on the real Stam or is it only on the pictures on their website? Sometimes typos like these just jump at me :D
You sold me on the Stam!
Let them know when you buy it! 😁
HoboRec Recording Studios already put the deposit down but I’ll gladly let them know when the 87 is ready for shipping
Hobo, which transformer is in your SA87?
They are so close, amazing! Ok Nuemann darkest, Stam brighter, warm brightest, for the money go warm, for the sound today go Stam, without a budget go Nuemann, but there really aren't any excuses. Thanks nice test!
Probably the only reason the Neumann is the darkest either because of component drift or membrane tuning going off a bit over the years.
are those white noises (Stam Audio sa87) normal?
I've only used one original U87. I don't know if something was wrong with it, but I always thought it sounded like shit any time I tried using it.
A good video to expose just what I've always thought of the WA 87, it *ain't* lol. Seriously, 87s are typically not extended in the high end like a 251/C12 for eg. The Stam is so good I'm tempted to sell my 76' U87i for one. But ya, the WA sounds "ok" but nothing like an 87 - even AA's CM-87 is closer. It may seem harsh but I have friends that have had QC issues with a few of their pieces.
I bought the SA-87, I love it. Listening back now, I can hear the Neumann is a little silkier in the highs. But the SA-87 does rock my world.
Still love it? Thinking about buying a sa-87 or advanced audio 87
@@gangs0846 Yeah, still love it. I've since added a 1073 and an La-2a to the chain and it's as good as I could possibly hope for. I'm as happy as I was hearing my voice back with a vintage U67 in a studio I was in previously.
With the U87 and Stam I feel like I'm hearing the voice, with the WA87 I feel like I'm hearing the mic. The WA87 has a weird resonance, is brighter, more sibilant, and the top end is cheap sounding. Blech.
When Warm Audio first appeared on the market I, like many, was impressed but it's become clear they're really just riding on the model numbers of classic gear ("finally, everyone can now afford a 'Classic 87-Style Mic'") and taking advantage of prosumer gearheads that will never have an opportunity to use the original gear, yet are willing to part with $700-$1000 on what is essentially a lie. Now that they have the formula, I doubt Warm will ever come out with an original mic design that would be able to survive on its own merits.
Thank you! Finally someone to say the truth about Warm Audio. I bought into Warm Audio BS when they first started out. Luckily, Stam Audio has dropped a wrench on Warm Audio’s BS.
Totally. The Stam made the WA sound like the proverbial "cheap chinese mic." Its funny because if u didnt hear them back to back you'd think the WA87 was cool.
The Stam damn near sounds exactly like the Original.
you really have to match these to the right pres, they all will work will
I agree...stam is closer..I couldn't tell the difference
The 12k boost imo interferes with a true comparison. Some mice take eq better than others and also depends on the frequency response of the mic.
I get what you mean. If I was comparing three completely different mics it would make sense. But in this case that are supposed to sound the same. And I wanted the differences to be amplified. If you want you can download the unprocessed files.
I think a boost in the comparison could show beneficial, since in a real mixing scenario u may want to boost some high end, knowing how the clones take eq compared to the original is also a part of a clone vs original comparison
Stam sa87 is closer n in this comparison sound a bit better than the u87 in my opinion. The wa87 has a crispy crackle to it. I don't know if that is from the high end being enhanced but it may be way someone is looking for. I would like to have both the sa87 n the wa87 n record vocals with both at the same time to give more options. Ex. Use one during verses n the other during chorus. Or a blend of both in stereo. This is my first introduction to the Stam sa87. Ty
请问哪里可以买到SA87？我太喜欢那声音了！
Thanks for video! What pres did you use?
You sent this right as I was going to record this month's Q&A so I brought it in there hehe th-cam.com/video/Ip9l_lMQpaQ/w-d-xo.html
The Stam sounds great. Close to the U87.
I've been looking at the Stam mics for several months. the only vintage type condenser I have worth mentioning is a Sony c48, which sounds very warm and not too brittle as some condensers can certainly be. Also have checked out the TF copperhead or ak47, as well as some SE electronics tube mics that hover around 1k, or less used. As far as Stam, i think it's obvious that they sound much closer to a vintage Neumann and don't use cheap parts from china or wherever. I just cannot decide at the moment between the SA 47fet, SA47, SA87, or SA67. I feel that the SA67 is probably a great choice for a tube version w/ less proximity effect issues and other features. I'm drawn to getting a SA47 fet simple due to the price and having it around for kick drum, drum room or the vocal, although it may not be best on all vocal types of voices, or as versitile as the 6 or 8 would be. I know that sa87 is a workhorse. I want a new mic for a session coming up next week so I gotta order one later today or tomorrow! what do you think ?
+Spencer Garn the Sa87 is definitely a good value mic. But I think it can be hard to get it in one week. I think they only sell directly from Stam. But send them a mail and ask!
I work regularly with multiple vintage U87s. They don't sound the same. They're VERY close but not exactly the same. They might be slightly brighter or slightly more low end. They all sound incredible. The Stam is close enough to be a match. The Warm is a little bit brighter yet smooth and not harsh but still solid in the mids. Not a match but still a good sounding microphone.
I know, I’m thinking about making a shootout and throw two vintage u87s in there to show just that.
3:59 There is a polysterene cap in the WA87, it's on the back of the front circuit board. I know this because I took mine apart to switch out the capsule.
Great to know! Thanks for clearifying.
What did you switch out for? Also what is the reason for doing so??
jose padilla I had a switched it out for the rk87 capsule from microphoneparts.com, didn’t make too much of a difference, however it did clear up some of the mud in the lower mids. I think I’m gonna go for the TAB funkenwerk transformer mod next.
@@Wayz7 I used the Rk87 in my diy U87. Sounds great to me. If you're going to change both the capsule and the transformer, seems like you might as well have went the diy route to beguine with. Those parts are the most expensive.
HoboRec Recording Studios you are exactly right, but I bought it for a steal. However, I built an s87 from micparts.com a few years ago and just switched the capsule from that mic. Really just trying things out, neither mic sounds like an 87 to my ears, the s-87 has a transformerless circuit and can be really bright in the high mids, even after choosing to attenuate at build time. very good for a person with a smooth voice but not so much for raspy or deep male vocals. The stock WA-87 can sound really dull , and although they tried to get that nueman sound it’s just something missing. I’m really just aiming for a Swiss Army knife, so I’m hoping this transformer mod works out.
WA 87, what a piece of... Get the STAM
Wow! Stam all the way.
Stan audio has the smoothest high end between the 3 imo
I literally thought the opposite.
Vintage all the way. Perfect body and crisp. Stam has this weird upper mid boost. Warm audio had less body and more hyped highs..... Vintage 👍
Vintage 87
does the stam audio has sowter trans?nice test
+Stergios Ts yes it's with Sowter transformer. Thanks!
Damn, the Stam Audio and Vintage 87's sound so similar, perhaps just a smidge of a round low end boost on the Vintage but I suspect that level of difference is to be found between every vintage U87.
They both seem to have big, wide, and smooth high-end compared to the WA87.
Do you happen to know what capsule was in the Stam Audio 87, the HK-87 or the RK-87?
HK-87
HK-87 in the stam and RK-87 in my own diy version. Download the files to hear the difference =)
Really bummed the WA sounded so bad. Tight, nasally, with a crunchy top end. I've listened to their rack gear, and have been impressed. Perhaps I'll stay in the box foreva.
Información por favor!!
So the warm audio had the microphone parts capsule in it?
+Chingy Fulldekk no, they have their own capsule.
Great room! Not digging the 3k hype on the Warm, and its sibilance jumps out in relation to the upper mids. Stam is closer to the vintage 87 but again, the air is the giveaway, those old 87's have a way of 'sucking in' the sibilant energy rather than spitting it out, it's a trick I've only heard in one modern mic, the Milab VIP-50, a little known dark creature that gets way less love than it should.
Good observation on the caps, the Warm has Wima's which are likely polypropylene, very different HF texture and transient response than the Neumann/Stam's polystyrene.
Stam aren't lying with their claim. Every other brand I've tried with a similar claim is straight-up lying to get money from careless buyers.
yo hobo. how could I get u to build me a u87 and how much would u charge.
Hehe, sure why not. Price depends on specs. Write me at info@hoborec.com
The warm audio sounds so cheap in the hights. We have a Sa-87 here. The only difference between U87 and SA-87 is the delivery time :-). No, really it sounds so similar
The Warm Audio is positioned above the singer's nose while the rest are not. I'm not sure if this is a fair comparison. That SA87 does sound great though. The vintage U87 is definitely warmer than the newer ai.
You can't even see the mics tho?
The vintage one sounds the best... the stam is closest of the clones, but not as smooth and balanced...
Soo the best it's U87 xD
Listening to them without looking to the screen, for me:
1.- U87
2.- SA87
3.- WA87
well your wrong lol
The WA-87 has been misrepresented in this video... I downloaded the files and level matched the Raw WA-87 to the Vintage U87. You have the WA-87 about 1.6dB louder then the Vintage U87... In the video it made me perceive the microphone as harsh. After matching it properly in my DAW, it made me realize that the microphones were damn near identical and it wasn't harsh at all.
This is actually not correct. I have a WA87 and it sounds completely different to mine. I can send you the frequency response graphs if you want. If you can't hear the differences maybe there is something wrong with your room. They are drastic and I am not saying mine is better. They are just extremely different.
@@joshuastam7704 so would you not recommend a wa87 for rap vocals? I know one mic doesn't fit all ofc, but just in general. Looking to upgrade and find a better mic in the $500 range to go will with my Apollo twin x.
@@joshuastam7704 It's actually 100% correct and I challenge anyone to download the files and feel it out themselves. There's nothing wrong with my room. I'm using mix headphones. Of course every microphone is going to sound slightly different. Two U87's won't sound the same. But the differences are SO small that you'd be an absolute gearslutz sheep to go spend $3600 over $599.
What compressor was used for this demo?
+Chingy Fulldekk I believe it was a UAD LA-2A
+Chingy Fulldekk it was just a UAD LA-2A
I appreciate your opinion. But I feel that the Warm 87 sounds the best. Very clear and smooth presence. The Vintage Neumann and the Stam sound a bit muffled. That might be why the A1 versions are a bit brighter. Also, I did a test myself and the Warm 87 does not have that wobbly low end that the U 87 has. Don't get me wrong. I've seen it in every state of the art studio in the world. I just know that more than a few (in my opinion) respected engineers, that don't use the U87 for vocals much because of the loose sounding low end.
That Stam is 100% on point....
I didn't look at the screen and though #3 sounded the most exciting. I know everyone else here liked the other two for one reason or another, but I was pleased to look at the screen and find its the WA87. Horses for courses, people. Get a good vocalist, any of these 3 mics...and just hit record already.
Original Neumann the best!
En los HIGh suena menos estridente el neumman prefiero el u 87 clasico
Both lag something at one end or the other. Pl. watch BANDREW'S PODOCASTAGE review.
ugly sibilance with the warm audio ! SA87 is indeed very close
Yo Hobo...I own the WA87 and your video actually had me curious about the Polystyrene cap, I specifically saw one of the Warm Audio Reps say there is a Polystyrene cap in there so I emailed them. Turns out it's actually in between the 2 boards. This is what they said"There is in fact a polystyrene capacitor visible if you take off the daughter card, I've attached a photo below. In our opinion, the WA87 sounds way closer to a vintage 60's era U87, nothing like the Ai which has a very harsh top end. I'm not sure what they used for the video, but it probably is a vintage one." so yeah, its there, I can send you a pic if you want. Again, I have the warm and its really cool, far from too bright up top for sure, but all things considered.. different chains and such. Through a 1073 style preamp and a La2a style comp its sounds sick. I know the Stam 87 is a great mic also. I know who makes the boards for it and the boards are great, which is more than likely why Stam chose them...why reinvent the wheel if you can use an awesome wheel! The WA87 are made from someone else, somewhere else I'm sure, but the parts all look like they are really close. The differences, as far as the construction of the mics, are the capsule and the transformer, which of course you are already aware of. Anyway brother, I just wanted to share...both of these mics kick butt and I would be(am) stoked to have either. I think there is this sort of "competition" thing between these 2 companies which kind of sucks. They're both great and depending on where you live one may logistically work better for you, but again...I would be (am) stoked to own either and dig that they both are pulling this elusive gear out of the clouds and facilitating the acquisition of it to the lowly little home studio...super cool all around! Sorry for the Novel!
+Shane hey! Thanks for the info! I didn't think about looking between the boards for the polystyrene caps. I will have another look for sure!
I couldn't agree more. I have the warm 87 and I A B it with my Neumann U87 Ai The Warm sounds much better to me. Did a blindfold test with some engineers and they picked the Warm as well.
@@radio22king i love it tje wa87 I own a few Neumann as well as micparts.com s87 which is amazing in its own right and my SHURE KSM 44 is sick i love it but yea i love my wa87 paired with my Golden age pre 73 mk3 plus modded by Revive audio its super awesome man
I prefer stam than Neuman lol xD
The Lowend of the SA87 got some resonances. The WA-87 doesn't sound like the U-87, but for me better than the SA87.
so strange, I read these reviews, listened to the video, blindfold, and Warm Audio just had so much more clarity and a balanced sound, nothing over the top on either end of the EQ spectrum.... believe you me I wouldn't have expected warm to kick it with the top dogs, and maybe because it was a comparison to the vintage Neumann I missing something...Warm had just more pleasing sonics
Agreed
The Stam has a weird pinch up at a very high frequency (~10Khz?) The Warm Audio sounds the most transparent to my ears. The U87 is rolled off, if you like that... fine. Warm audio mics are built with WIMA caps which are really good sounding. Thanks for this! Next you should do a sample of the DIY U87 clones!
The WIMA caps have nothing to do with the sound. The U87 is indeed a dark mic, rolled off. It's all about the capsule and transformer.
@@joshuastam7704 You mean on the Vintage U-87? (That one I don't know if they use WIMA at all.)
Vintage U-87 - balanced tone - very nice
Warm WA-87 - has a pleasant color, but less balanced then vintage U87.
Stam SA-87 - mid-range seems boosted, more presence/harshness
Thanks for stating your opinion but it's completely the opposite. My SA87 is h much less mid range and presence than the WA87 or the 87ai. Graphs don't lie. It's as dark as the vintage 87
@@joshuastam7704 Stam is a beast unless they raw run them and test and print a graph result they can't speak upon whats not close to the u87
@@joshuastam7704 Great to see you in the comments Joshua. I think you've made a great clone, but am I wrong when I say that the top feels a bit rounded off/darker, and that the Vintage U87 is brighter and more open... just my initial reaction. Great job though, much much better than the WA clone. I've got an order for 2 of your Pultec clones, hopefully coming my way soon, really looking forward to it, keep making great gear! All the best
SA-87 is just a little bit muddy...
Gabrijel Prusina not alittle but way too muddy
What?! Lol I think you mean the wa87 is muddy right?
nope. I also feel like the sa87 sounds muddy. it's seems like there is a little dip which makes it less present than the other two. the w87 is maybe a bit more off, but it sounds more pleasent to me.
Well, since the frequency response is the same as the original U87 then the Neumann is muddy as well.
Some people said its muddy. I think they're ears are muddy. I'm sure those must be the people who got SUCKERED INTO BUYING A 3,500 HUNDRED DOLLAR MIC. 😂 😂 😂 😂. the Stam Audio microphone (ANY ONE OF THEM) is all a person needs. There is NOTHING THAT JUSTIFIES SPENDING MORE THAN A THOUSAND TO TWELVE HUNDRED BUCKS ON A MIC. learn how to EQ and you'll MOST DEFINITELY save yourself a BUNCH OF 💰
Stam sounds great to me.
The Vintage U87 has more detailed low mids and nicer top end than both the cheaper clones. The warm u87 sounds warmer/dull. The Stam sounds thinner compared to both the others IMO.
I'd say the stam is about 80-90% there. A little bit of eq should fix those lower mids and give those highs some sparkle. The warm audio is just gonna be a pain to eq out those highs (unless that's the sound needed). Could be wrong but for the money the stam is still a great mic in its own way. No one would really notice in the context of a mix
The video does not do the shootout justice. Mainly due to the fact that different syllables and dynamics are happening at different times. For example in the stam audio she sings a higher note that has brighter sounding syllables than when the u87 is shown. So I downloaded the files and picked a small portion of the songs where it had a good mix of high and low notes and dynamics to better compare. In my listening I found the u87 to have more highs than all the other mics with warm coming in second and the stam being the darkest. In terms of midrange they were very similar. The stam had this pinched frequency around the 3.5k area but was closer to the u87 in that department compared to the darker sounding wa87. Didn't really care too much about the lows in this shootout. I'd love to hear a shootout with acoustic guitars if possible, i think then we can draw a better conclusion on the differences to these mics.
Hey! You're right, would probably be more fair to repeat the exact same part between the mics, but the testfiles are free to download so I thought it was ok. But I can't really agree with you, when listening both in the studio and back home in headphones I found the wa87 and my own diy-version to be more bright.
In my experiences, when you know which mic you are listening to we tend to listen to the frequency we assume will be more prevalent. In this example, I am more inclined to think the warm and the DIY mic to be the brightest because they are cheaper and therefore I tend to listen in on those frequencies when doing shootouts. How I combat this presupposition is to leave the neumann track unmuted while muting all the other mic choices. I then pick one and close my eyes and press on the solo button several times to where I don't know which one I am listening to. When it came time for the warm mic, I honestly thought the brighter sounding mic was gonna be it but it turned out when I opened my eyes that it was the u87 (I repeated this several times with the same outcome). Also, I made sure to level match. The warm was a db or so hotter than the u87 (possibly giving that illusion of more brightness.)
Yeah, I didn't know what mic I was listening to either when I did the test. I used a blindtest plugin from HOFA that puts everything in a random order. I tried it again now and I still hear what I say I hear in the video. The tracks was already level matched, but I noticed now that the u87 was 0.5db lower that the others when I had it measured. Sorry about that.
I didn't really get what you mean in your first post. You first wrote that you found the u87 to be brightest and sa87 darkest, but at the end you say the sa87 is darker?!
We clearly have different opinions on this one. People are free to download the tracks on their own to hear for them selfs. I don't intend to fool anyone =)
I said the SA 87 was darker in the highs but in the mids the warm is darker "in that department" (looking back "warmer" would have been a more accurate description). But to each their own. Again, great shootout, thanks again. Please do an acoustic shootout if possible.
Stam definately get it close enough. They make great gear.
the stam is better than the warm
Stam audio is the best, better than the vintage in my ear(bud)s
It's very smooth. Loved it.
WA87 sounds like crap compared to the other two, has that cheap mic harshness that isn't present in the other two.
Stam sounds a tiny bit different but overall it has the same overall sound as the U87.
Warm best
I think the Stam audio is even better a bit better than the Vintage U-87. The quality of the sound is smoother in the midrange while the vintage u 87 has something aggresive in the mid-high region. The Warm audio is shit. Very cheap and weird replica. I like none of the Warm audio stuff and i can't undestand why people even bother to compare it with the stuff they try to immitate.
Ilias Pantelias I have a Wa76 that was modded by Revive Audio. Sounds AWESOME. I think Warm does a decent job. I'd rather use their stuff than a plugin. I'm going for an SA 2A compressor next though, and an SA 87 mic.
That WA87 doesn't look like a U87 circuit from a quick glance. Looks like the standard Shoeps style, which is probably why it's so bright. No negative feedback to tame the K67/87 style capsule.
The closest u87 clone is OktavaMod / Michael Joly mod. These sa87 wa87 only thing they got is the “87” in the name that’s all
Joly the fool'y- Yikes, not all
Actually not only the name, the SA87 also has the exact same circuit, components, capsule recreation, frequency response and spl as the original. You would not be able to tell them apart from an original U87. Muddy? guess not.
. . capsule recreation, . . Nope, again for the hundredth time, NO ONE can re-create or clone the original Neumann capsule and therefore, logically, can't clone a Neumann U87, U67 or U47, fortunately. But it seems every other advanced DIY'er who starts a business wants to make money on the back of this company. Neumann owns and uses their very own diaphragm material. This material is not available to the public or to any clo(w)n'er. It's one of Neumann's assets. The capsule is the heard of every mic and responsible for the overall timbre/sound. No original capsule, no original sound, simple. There is not a single Neumann U87/U67/47 etc "clone" out there and never will as long as the original capsule isn't a part of the 're-creation'. This of course will never happen because the original capsule alone as a spare is about £700 and therefore the total price for the so called "clone" would be way to close to the price of the original mic. So all that's left is the way cheaper 'sounds like a Neumann" marketing bullshit that in conclusion also gives idiots/"clone"-owners the faith or an alibi to state that their "clone"-mic sounds like a Neumann . . which it doesn't. Fortunately this world of illusion & desperation rather applies to the recording hobbyists, means to the majority of people on gearslutz and the likes.
I guess you are not a capsule maker, cloning a K87 capsule is actually extremely simple and basic, there much more complex capsules to recreate out there but you wouldn't know. Anyways, keep your opinion, I am sure you think you are right. Best
I don't have to be a capsule maker. . in the same way that I don't have to be a chef to know that Porotos con Riendas without pinto beans misses something. Trained ears and the knowledge that no one but Neumann has the original membrane/diaphragm material at hand goes a long way. Without using the original material any copy will not sound like the original Neumann capsule. It will not have the (more or less) subtle Neumann timbre. Even re-skinned original capsules executed by industry veterans like Siegfried Thiersch do not sound like the originals anymore because he can't get hold of the org.material. Tim Campbell with his AKG CK12* recreation (that's a "complex" one, huh ) is an exception to the rule of " copies sound either mediocre or bad". (* IYDK, AKG stopped manufacturing the original CK12 more than 30 years ago). From an artistic POV all this here doesn't matter anyways. I like originals for many reasons but in general if a piece of gear works great for a certain task, it works -If there is honesty behind it it does not matter who made it or where it comes from.
wa87 r2 win
That Wa 87 sounds like trash!