As someone who works in the off road industry and on behalf of everyone I work with. Thank you for helping all of the forum geeks and TH-cam mechanics understand why they have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to suspension
He uses incredibly small sample sizes that don’t control for all variables and presents it as science. I wouldn’t consider any info he presents as fact.
The 3rd gen 4runner I bought had the worst set up. -Maxed out suspension lift -no rear sway bar -front sway bar Drove like dogshit. After watching Tinkerers swaybar videos I made the corrections and it made the BIGGEST difference. This is the best channel for this kind of stuff. Amazing, thank you
@@ananamusly removed strut spacers from front coilovers, put in a rear sway bar and removed the front sway bar. I also found out the front lift coils didn’t have the proper weight rating to handle arb bumper+winch so will be ordering proper coils eventually
@@kevinVersus adding back in the rear sway bar on my Xterra for some measurements has been on my list since he released that video. Awesome, technical content.
@@thomascarpenter5536 do it up. I have a 1st gen pathfinder and I run no sway bars. It’s lifted on 33’s but I have the clearance for full flex (required cutting)
@@thomascarpenter5536 Definitely worth trying. My stock 2nd gen Frontier seems to get all of it's articulation from the rear end currently. Removing the front swaybar and leaving the rear would probably perform very similarly to how the same setup performs on Toyotas, and a few anecdotes I've heard from other Frontier owners confirms that.
Getting a GX engineer on your channel is the ultimate flex! You know he is proud of his product and stands behind it. Toyota is lucky to have this man. Can’t say I’ll buy a GX. But your videos have me sold on Toyota as my next vehicle.
Ya but who’s really gonna take that Lexus 550 off road that’s gonna be a pavement princess ….they’ll just get 4 runners and the gx470 Toyota FJ , or some off road midsize pick ups … only people who will try it is people who have money to Just blow cause they bored
I've noticed this trend for a little while now. Rigs with 1.5" lift or less, only 32-33" tires, and lower total vehicle weight seem to walk over obstacles more easily than the incredibly overbuilt vehicles. Just my anecdotal observation.
Yep, I did 1.5” lift on my sequoia and have run 32” and 33” tires. Been a great setup for me for the last 5 years. That combined with a skinner tire and as minimal offset as needed to keep it from rubbing the frame.
I’m only going to go as big as I can fit in the spare tire area. Makes no sense to have to get a hitch carrier to hassle with every time I open the rear lift gate
Couldn't agree more. I originally had the front end of my 2nd gen set at 3" lift w/ 33s, but had maybe 20% down travel and poor handling, always topping down when articulating. I lowered it down over an inch and it is far more capable on high/low speeds, but still has plenty of clearance for most trails I hit.
@TobyCostaRica I had a dirtcom carrier on my GX460 for a minute and i sold it within 3 months. It sucked on a daily driver. I’m just glad my LX570 will fit a 315/70 underneath.
*"Not lifted" since day 1 in our Lexus GX460. Explaining the reasoning to the masses has been an exercise in futility. The low COG combined with articulation simply keeps things planted. The lifted counterpart already thinks it's in a ditch and starts to get tippy rather than conforming and building confidence. Lastly, all Toyota engineers know what a "lift kit" is and how the ultimate goal of a balanced suspension geometry is the actual aim. Sadly stock suspension geometry is never really put to the test by many buyers because "lift kit" has been pre-programmed in their mind as some sort of offroading prerequisite... or more accurately: they do it for looks*
I'm all for not running lifts, especially huge ones. I ran my GX460 for 3 years with the stock suspension, skids and 285/70's and it was fine. But usually lifts consist of better shocks and springs than stock and improve many aspects of the vehicle besides just lifting it. Obviously, Lexus didn't tune the GX460 suspension tuning with pure offroad performance in mind. At the end of the day its used as a grocery getter by 99.9% of first owners and its a compromise of on road comfort and handling with a little offroad sprinkled in. Additionally, most aftermarket shocks for a GX460 are extended travel, meaning you can gain about 1" of additional droop travel. As long as you do not go for a huge amount of lift while doing this, the truck will be improved in most respects. I went to Bilstein 6112's with the heavy rate springs and kept it as low as possible. Eibach medium rate load leveling springs in the rear with Bilstein 5160's. The truck rode better in all conditions than the factory setup. Since I used the GX to tow, the heavier rate springs were a big improvement there, but still very compliant offroad.
Sadly you are restricting yourself to trails that only requires about 10 inch of ground clearance, which is common in CA where desert trails are usually not that demanding. There are tons of places in other states where stock height GX will immediately get destroyed.
After taking my LC250 out on the trail, it got me thinking that I may not need a lift. It handled everything with ease and comfort. Made it out unscathed. FYI: I did gain 1" of ground clearance running "33s"(32.8in).
@@brianpeck697 not just numbers but the entire scientific method, he has theory, hypothesis, experimentation, analysis, conclusion and iterations, the videos are about as complete as they can be.
I am on my fifth IFS ute (truck) now and this one I've left bog stock in the suspension both ends. Although it helps being a Ranger Raptor, I had a previous gen RR prior to this one with a 2" lift both ends and cannot believe how much better the new standard one performs over the "improved" one (and the other three lifted vehicles I had prior)... I agree with your point about the specific type of offroading you do being important to understand before modifying, or leaving standard, your 4x4. In my case, standard height causes no problems as never work it on rocky trails where clearance is critical. This is one of the best produced videos I have seen on this topic!!!! Well done to you and the crew that helped put it together
This is by far the most informative channel on 4wd suspension. You're making me want to flex test my Pajero Evolution as I have 40mm lift and fixed swaybars... interesting to see how much flex I've lost!
I wanna see that. New Pajero SWB owner. My target is for corrugated roads, sand, and minor travels. All with easy maintenance and low price. Not interested in spending heaps for rock-crawling or river crossing, that is more a job for modified Nissan Patrol, Toyota Prado, and Lexus LX models.
Just tried this with some wood blocks and Rhino ramps on my stock '21 Chevy Colorado ZR2 (sway bar connected). I still was making good contact with the ground (front and rear) so I did not get full flex but I measured 4.5 in the front and 14.75 in the rear. This channel certainly has done a good job of showing some very valuable 4x4 suspension information. Keep them coming.
Update: I built some taller ramps and disconnected the sway bar. Front Flex: 6.5 in. Rear Flex: 15.25 in. Total: 21.75 in. I was at the end of my ramps still so there might even be a little more flex yet.
Good video! Articulation flex is one thing, however approach, departure, and breakover angles are another. Maybe you should differentiate more between the two. Also, you're using vehicles with IFS, which are not as good off road compared to solid axles. I have a 2 door JK with 2 1/2" lift, 35's, and disconnect sway bar links, and the articulation is far higher than stock. Cheers from Canada.
I have a 2024 Nissan Pro 4X so glad I did NOT rush into lifting and am constantly researching. So glad I found your channel. There is a reason why NISMO only has 1.5 inch of lift kit for the PRO 4 X and nothing more. It’s all about proper articulation and clearance. For the most part many of us who go on dirt will be on it once a month along side those who own a stock Subaru.
@@rockkstah2550 well…and cost and prob CV factory warranty, and possibly vehicle stability liability. I have a 23’ pro4x. I’d never use the Nismo lift. It’s spacers and blocks. No no no. Z1 off-road is a good source.
Suspension droop is the un-sexy unsung hero in the offroad world. Jack the thing up, so you can put bigger tires on so it looks cool is unfortunately what way to many people are after vs actually performing well off road. Thanks for helping all of us data geeks get our numbers fix tinker!
Bigger tires go over larger objects. Performs better off road because it doesn't smash into bushes, logs, rocks. What's the point of flexy suspension when you physically run into things with your skid plate and bumper?
Thank you!!!! EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS, I have 8" front 10" rear lift with super flex springs cut out fenders and 37" tires, I STUFF the tires in the wheel wells on full flex and can crawl over things with the bigger tires.
NB: This applies only to IFS, not a solid axle. My XJ has 33" tires on a 4" lift and I cut back the wheel wells to make more room. Now I have lots of extra travel, up and down, both front and rear. IFS is great on road but I'll stick to solids off road for both travel and strength.
I've never off-roaded, yet I'm fascinated by your strictly rigorous engineering approach. Very well done and I learn something with everyone of your videos.
As a wheeler of full independent suspension vehicles, yes you are correct, and for most 'overlanders' and softroaders flex is more helpful than clearance. But for me and most people/places i wheel, clearance is more important as flex doesn't help you get un-turtled from large rocks. But you don't see many people talking about this though it seems common sense...stiffer suspension means less flex.
This is why I would love to see you review the Bronco and similar mods. The stock Bronco flexes very well (with disconnect of course) because of the decent wheel travel and specifically the down travel. Ability to fully stuff the jounce tire is also pretty good. So many common mods really kill the flex and give IFS a bad reputation.
Agree! I haven't seen it in person, but I watched a lot of Bronco videos and they do seem to be quite impressive for IFS. I'd also be curious to see an LE3 or LR4 Land Rover with air suspension, the way they work is as one wheel goes up, the air forces the opposite wheel down, so it functions almost like a solid axle.
My friend took me on some mountain trails in Ouray, Colorado in a stock late 70's Jeep. There were lifted jeeps and fjs everywhere. I was completely blown away by what we could go up and down. I haven't modified my truck, and probably will only replace the shocks. I don't want to lift it and see no advantage to it. 4wd and a locker will get you very far. My gf test drive a bronco, with a factory lift kit and 35" tires. An extra $13k in value. It was stupid and didn't look good. A level bronco on 31-32" tires looks so much better and I'm sure performs at 95% of what a lifted one can, without the crappy on road experience.
@@Alan-bm3ni Old jeeps are a lot different than modern Toyota's though. The GX460 in this video comes with pretty atrocious clearance stock. Mine was stock with 33's on it and still was smacking running boards and bumpers and the trailer hitch on mild forest service roads. A Bronco has much better approach and departure angles but the 4 door version has a pretty long wheelbase so breakover could be a concern.
The principle is what I learned about 15 years ago called a “low center of gravity” lift, or “LCG” Suspensions built for prerunners also use this principle in their builds. Huge 35 BFG Baja TA with plenty of limitation of uptravel, but huge amounts of downtravel at each wheel.
Well done, as usual. When people can't understand why my raptor can often go where lifted vehicles can't, it's often the droop. I try explaining this and a large proportion of people simply look confused. Some totally get it. Lifts, body lifts... all have their place depending on people's budgets, needs (and wants). All good. Info like this video help people prioritize or plan their upgrades.
I simply removed my front sway bar from my 1st gen Sequoia, and when combined with the basic 2 inch lift the front articulation is pretty impressive for what it is. Plenty of droop, but also stuffs the front 33s into the fender. I personally think the fat tire and low offset craze is kind of ridiculous. Your videos have helped me get my Sequoia performing pretty well.
The smart people with GX's run 4Runner TRD Offroad wheels with +15mm offset that the 4Runner bro's sell to replace with Methods or SCS wheels. 🤣 We don't look that cool, but its cheap and functional and was able to fit 285/70's with minimal effort.
It depends on the type of terrain you re trying to overcome with your vehicle. For touring, 31s or 33s are perfect but if you re going to rock crawl with 32 or 33s, a rig on 35s or 37s is going to do it better because they have a higher approach and departure angles, more sidewall to play with and are higher off the ground in general. It would be the same if you re on a trail with deep ruts where articulation for which a rock crawler is designed for, your differential won't be caught as much as well as your rear leafs if you have those, on potential rocks. I have a 78 series Land Cruiser on 33s that I use for touring with a roof top tent and all the accessories, I use it to travel all over the country and I have a GU Patrol on 35s with portal axles for tough trails. They cannot do each others job as they are built to perform different tasks.
This is incredible. I’ve thought of lifts just moving the truck up the useable travel without actually adding more flex but never known of the science behind it. Great job explaining this, testing it, and visualizing this.
One viable I’m hoping you keep even across the board is tire pressure. A deflated tire compresses more too. We used to get substantially better RTI scores on solid axle Jeep back in the day by running 10-15psi (crawling pressure) in our 40 inch tires.
My old grand cherokee is on stock 29.5's with the factory suspension. Other than raw ground clearance at the rear diff, which is already 8 inches, ive never had problems with clearance and it has gotten me everywhere ive wanted
Congrats on the ONX sponsor! I've torn my Chevy suspesnion apart so many times to understand how suspension actually works. I have twice the suspension travel on my truck thats raised 2.5 inches than my buddies 6 inch lifted truck does. Its quite interesting how it works.
My tahoe has 5.5 inches of total front end travel, which isnt much. Its less than stock. But, most torsion bar chevys only travel 3 inches up front once theyre lifted... my rear axle uses GM stuff with a custom trackbar and longer shocks, and has 16 inches of travel in the back
My stock 200 Series has always done just fine off road. Tin Cup, Engineer Pass ect. The only thing I have added are K2’s over the OEM tires, and Bud Built Rock Sliders and Skid Plates. Granted I’m not hitting crazy truck breaking trails, but most people aren’t. You need to upgrade to meet your needs and remember that every pound you add to the rig should be well thought out.
Our family runs 3 stock jeep rubicons. Only two things stop us: deep snow and skinny sxs trails where we dont fit. The articulation combined with front and rear lockers gets us through some crazy pucker up trails
Good knowledge, thanks! Since I am planning to purchase an off-road camper/truck with trailer combo within a few years I recently got into overlanding and am dousing myself with all kinds of information. I admit I was one of those noobs who thought lifting automatically makes a car better off road. Apparently not so.
Hey, great video. Love how technical you are. I would love to see an analysis like that for a Rivian R1S to understand better how it perform/work. I own one, but we are probably too far for a quick test.
Everything in this video is why I support the use of bracket lifts on properly built rigs. Everyone out there is chasing bigger tires, so they crank their pre-load and lose down-travel. All that pre-load requires more weight to overcome it and compress that spring, so they lose up-travel as well. All that and they have a set-up that looks cool, but has 5" of total travel and 35" tires. Since a bracket lift moves the wheel travel range downwards relative to the frame and body, it increases the room for bigger tires without sacrificing up-travel or down-travel. For example, my truck has a 7" BDS bracket lift, and I reduced the pre-load on the coils to achieve 5.5" of total suspension lift over factory. I have ~12" of total wheel travel on my IFS, with half of that being down-travel. And I run 40" tires without rubbing at full compression. I use the bigger tires for increased ground clearance, which helps especially on the rear solid axle. I hope that Kai can one day make a video detailing the pros and cons of a bracket lift on IFS trucks. I feel like it's information that everyone should know even if they're not in the market for a bracket lift.
Agreed. That is reason I got 6100 strut from Bilstien and has more travel but lift aboit 2.5 inch max just to fit 35. The rear add one leaf sprig about 2 inch with longer travel shocks . It's for Titan XD mot a Toyota but has similar issues.
Great video, as someone that has always had solid axle off-road rigs I would have never thought of how the IFS rigs geometry would end up functioning like this.
This also reminds me of the Nissan world, Especially for F-alpha platform. We do "Titan swap" on front suspension for wider track width (3in wider on each side) This helps with better total travel distance both up and down. And with longer CV axles, it helps to eliminate binding when reach to full droop.
this is a super cool video! so many people throw parts and upgrades at a truck and don't think of what the big picture will be or have any real goals for the vehicle's capabilities. It's just "upgrade this" "upgrade that". some parts you "upgrade" make the vehicle worse in some other way and it all adds up! The real question is "how much ground clearance is enough" how much ground clearence makes you feel comfortable to take on any / most trails?
This is a great video. Most people don't understand the physics, engineering and mechanics of this. I've never been a fan of lifts, especially really big and expensive ones. They usually cause more problems than they solve.
Basically if it has KDSS leave it alone. Get some shocks for ride quality and get a portal axle lift. Leaves all the factory specs in place and will help with clearance.
As a smug stock 3rd gen Tacoma owner, I did a bunch of research and came to the same conclusions. This is the first vehicle, after many modified ones, that I’ve decided to leave completely stock and I am loving it.
1st gen tundra here... Front is a Bilstein 6112 lifted 1.5" and rear is lifted approximately 1" with RAS Active Suspension set-up, 5100s, and oem leafs. Running 255/80/17s. Its been solid off-road and feels great on the road. Havent done any major articulation tests but when i went on some obstacles with my lifted 4runner buddy on 34s it had no issues. Thoughts on my setup?
When I was planning my lift on my '18 GX, I probably watched your IFS videos about this 20 times or so. I went with the same extended travel coilovers, and achieved a tiny bit more articulation over stock while gaining a few inches from the suspension/fitting 33's. It's been nothing short of amazing out on the trails I like to go on. Thanks for sharing the testing and research!
@@AlexM-np1cx yeah, for sure. Ironman stage 2 foam cell pro kit (2.5” front which I backed off a tiny bit, and 2” rear which I also backed off a tiny bit, as the air bag delete kit I also got from them adds 1/2”), I’mprobably sitting at around 2.15” of suspension lift after settling. DrKDSS botck, KDSS spacers, kdss switch, SCS -10mm Ray10 17” wheels, 285/70R17 Load C Toyo RT Trails, body mount chop, lots of fender liner heating and reforming. JWOffroad single tire carrier to handle the oversized spare. OEM trans cooler, Redarc trailer brake controller.
It’s been a wonderful rig to get out on pretty gnarly trails, yet still drives nicely on-road. The setup really helped with approach and departure angles, which from time to time it still struggles with.
Been off roading my entire life from atvs jeeps trucks sxs heavy machinery at work. In my experience ground clearance is king flex is important obviously but can be overcome to an extent with front and rear lockers. Most times I've been stuck I've been hung up on something either rocks deep ruts high centered. Also high clearance vehicles are better at river crossings especially swift water in Rockies like snow melt combined with storms flooding can happen quick. Snorkel doesn't help much if your washed down the river. When done right in most circumstances the higher vehicle will do better.
Thank you for making this video follow up to your original Toyota suspension series. I had lowered my 4Runner from a 3” to a 1” lift but my ego was starting to crave a higher lift again… putting those skid plates to work!
What an eye opener! I have a Westcott Designs Lexus GX 550 Preload Collar Lift Kit. I gained 2 1/2" of lift in the front and 3/4" in the back. It allows me to run Toyo Open Country AT III 35x12.5x17 tires on Method MR703 BeadGrip 17x8.5 wheels with a +35 offset. I was focused on improving the Approach & Departure angles and hadn't considered the flex ramifications. But it sure gives the 550 a great look!
Frank, please get rid of the spacer lift. Those things are garbage and don't listen to what Westcott says about it not affecting performance. With any type of spacer lift, performance will be worse in all aspects and they will ride like donkey shit. Just the facts.
@@Gazziza29 You do know that the factory Land Cruiser 200 series had the option of a 10mm spacer lift? The factory shocks still have plenty of uptravel available after the bump stops engage, so a small spacer only moves the shock down slightly but improves down travel and retains up travel without damage to shocks. Spacer lifts are not bad if you do it right and keep the shock protected by bump stops.
@@Jay-me7gw BIG difference between a 10mm spacer vs 60+mm. Pre-load spacers are the least desirable type, you're trading every mm of downtravel for every mm of lift. With strut spacers, at least some downtravel is retained, limited only by CV angle and upper control arm spring contact.
@@royj8549 the Westcott design spacer is not 60mm. They are like 10mm. I doubt anyone makes a 60mm spacer, that would lift the front like 5". Also, why would a pre-load spacer trade any travel. All its doing is compressing the spring a little more. The shock still has the same travel range. Yes it will be harder to fully compress, but thats how any lift works. And a preload spacer is the only way to help the suspension cope with heavier weight from winches, bumpers, skids, etc besides going to stiffer springs.
@@Jay-me7gw Usually, spacer height refers to effective height. Just like when we talk travel on a GX, we're not talking strut shaft travel, but effective wheel travel factoring in motion ratio. As shown by the GX460 in the video, factory spring rates are chosen so you're at bump stops under corner loading / articulation. You raise it 60mm (2.5"), and you won't use that extra bump travel, but you lose that in droop. A strut spacer maintains the bump / droop ratio within a couple % For weight compensation, sure. But not a 2.5" spacer. For GX460: 730 lb-in x 2 x .53 motion ratio = 774 lbs per inch of sag. How much weight you adding to the front end?
After watching the previous sway bar video, on my 3rd gen 4Runner, i: - took off the front sway bar, left rear in place - went from 700 lb front springs to 600 So far? Well, with no front sway, it's more ponderous on pavement, amplified by a switch to 'pizza cutter' sized KM3 tires. But off road? Way more balanced articulation. Previously I'd say that the body did about 90% of what the front wheels were doing, which isn't always a good thing. After? It's still somewhat front biased, but as a totally subjective guess, I'd call it 60/40. But I can really feel how the car is splitting the difference now, instead of making the rear axle do all the work. (1" body lift, 33" tires, 3" suspension lift, double locked, crawl box, manual trans '99) Love it, and it's not the sort of thing I would ever have thought up to try on my own. PS: I'm keeping the lift, I use the skid plates enough as is!
In Thailand, since factory rear locker come as standard in 4x4, we don't lift that high like in rigid axel era. Stock IFS with few lifted saves $$$ and capable enough on most terrain except rock climbing & water crossing. My 4x4 is 1.5" lifted on stock IFS and trim the fender to put 35" tire. Easy to drive and not easy to rollover. And on extreme 4x4 trip, I just left my sway bar at home.
I don't "wheel" per se but do take a '16 F150 out into the Mojave to a couple of my favorite "fishin' holes". We fish for tin cans, paper, AR500 alloy, that kind of thing. Meanwhile, I wanted a little more ground clearance for my rig. 2" is the generally accepted limit to "level" a stock truck; after that you can get into the problems Tinkerer's Adventure describes here, and from lack of "droop", or, suspension downtravel. And since I carry gear in the bed of the truck and sometimes hang a small trailer's tongue weight on the hitch receiver, I did not level the front of my truck to 2" but instead opted for 1.5" front lift via the Bilstein 6112 (also, Bilstein 5100s offer a similar, 5-postition spring saddle placement before assembly), knowing that I was preserving some downtravel by not topping out my lift height. The compromise, there, payed dividends, as Tinkerer's Adventure illustrates so well in this video. I recently ditched the zero-offset 17 X 8.5 wheels I was running in favor of a +25 Method 705, which when wearing a new, NARROWER tire (Toyo's ATIII 34 X 10.50 X R17LT D Load Range), has eliminated the rubbing issues at full steering lock that I was having when using the zero offset. And the new tire is also TALLER. Win/win. Great vid, as always.
The one thing you miss by not lifting is extended travel shocks. Running extended travel shocks with minimal lift will be an improvement in terms of total articulation and still allow the truck to flex. Its when you start going 2.5, 3, or 3.5" of lift that things start to go sideways, but with the right shock and spring selection you could easily keep it to 1" lift.
@@toddmanning7844 Most any lift shock should be extended travel. Eibach, Bilstein, OME, Dobinsons, Ironman, Fox, Icon, King. Which ones just depend on your budget.
You could also put 1/2” spacers up front and 1” spacers in the rear for very little money and have the same effect. Check out some of the earlier Toyota suspension videos on this channel.
I wish I new more, I got my first truck - fj-80 95 and it came with some lift, think it's 3" not sure, but I have to work on it and give it basic care before I can really take it off-road. Definitely a fun world to explore
People are eager to sacrfice down travel to gain clearance for larger tires. I am going to stick to lower lifts and properly clearancing for larger tires.
This. And not run 12.5" wide tires with -38mm offset SCS wheels because they look dope. Get some skinnier tires with appropriate offset so you can continue to stuff them.
@@Jay-me7gwon the gx with a simple preload you can very easily run a 35x12.5 on a 17x8.5 but that is a massive off set. IDE recommend a+35 and you still are able to get full articulation on the gx550.
Excellent video I wonder if you think Active Height control would be a benefit on the GX 550 in addition to the EKDSS. So that you can improve ground clearance when you need to
Not all lifts are dond at tgd expense of teavel. On my lift (not a toyota) the lower control arm is repositioned with add on crosmembers and a longer knuckle and modified upper A arm move compensate for the larger distance between upper and lower A arms.
Very informative. This is exactly why 2nd Gen Xterra's and Frontier's upgrade to Titan suspension, to gain more articulation. Longer Upper/Lower/Axles etc.
It really depends entirely on the environment in which you are wheeling in. In rocks, you will need clearance. In mud and water as well. Some times you want wide tires, in others, narrow. Various setups accel in different conditions.
Looking forward to the gx550 full review. Im hoping you will cover things like axle and differential size and strength, etc! Also curious what a rear seat delete would ultimately look like!
I have a 200 with long travel arms. I'm getting 13in of travel with stock AHC shocks. I added 1.25" strut spacers to change the range of motion (sacrificing compression for droop) making my wheel travel more usable. I did have to cut 2 in out the fender. It is a happy compromise to run 35s and not have to limit travel. Great videos keep it up
It's all about balancing the trade-off. That's the big takeaway. Lots of wheelers are forced into trading IFS articulation for approach/departure, breakover, and center-line clearance because of longer wheelbase. I run 31s and no lift on a Gen1 SWB Montero which is the max I'll ever go. The short wheelbase guys have it a lot easier but, in scenario's like your ramp test they get very tippy really quickly. And that's the trade-off I've made.
I just bought ( my bank did) a 214 Runner TRD offroad. and I happen to think its the perfect height. All I want to change up is the wheels/tires. And maybe a few LED mods. other than that, It's perfect.
Great video. I have a 2005 LJ Wrangler with a 2 inch lift and 32 inch tires, 4.56 gears and Detroit Tru Trac (Torsen ) in the front diff and stock limited diff in the rear. People are amazed at what this como can do. As you show, bigger is not always better.
Rollover!! I owned "Opel Frontera Sport B" (Isuzu Amigo based Vauxhall). It was considered crappy due to low lift and "only" LSD in rear differential. However it was a blast in mountains!!! 20° traverse was like nothing for that car! (Manufacturer claimed 40° but I didn't have the guts). Meanwhile my friend totaled "superior" Land Cruiser due to roll over 🤷
In the end of the day it depends on the case. Different off-roading requires or at least favours different suspension (and not only) setups. Furthermore, a thing you said yourself, it matters how you lift the vehicle. A proper lift means all the parts can work with each other - longer shocks, longer control arms, adjusted bump stops, maybe limit straps, removing the anti roll bar altogether, a lot of factors depending on your particular setup and needs. There's a difference between changing the ride height and putting a lift kit.
Exactly, Kai!!! As always!!! The question for IFS lifters should always be, “do you even downtravel, bro?” Downtravel is 60% of off-road suspension capability … when you lose down travel, you lose vehicle capability. 👍👍
Ideally a 1" lift with 1" longer shocks/coilovers and a proper bracket diff drop kit is ideal setup. Then fit as big a tyre as can fit, regear and lockers, underbody protection and youll go almost anywhere. Here in Oz, the smart offroaders keep em as low as possible.
Your channel is excellent. It has changed how I look at suspension setup. I am interested in RC crawlers as well. My most recent RC build was definitely inspired by your "lessons" about balance and making all four corners working more harmoniously. Without going into detail on the setup, the end result is a chassis that stays very level while going through it's articulation cycle It has the ability to "float" a tire across a gap without dropping the tire too fast, which keeps the chassis much more planted and less prone to rocking. I always look forward to your videos, as they are of the highest quality and are very intelligent. Keep up the good work.
Droop travel setups has been popular in the RC crawler world for a while. Some guys will run their RC's with the shocks basically bottomed out at normal ride height so the tires can only drop down. It lowers the center of gravity and also makes it so that, when the truck is on a side hill or climbing, the downhill shocks are already bottomed out and wont cause the truck to lean and roll. I had a TRX4 that I put extended shock towers on, and ran 120mm shocks at stock ride height. All the added shock length was in droop only and the thing was like a damn spider. The tires almost never left the ground ever.
Great vid, and I was all ready to jump into the comments and talk about how clearance matters too but you covered it. I went to check out the new GX in person last week and the very first thing I saw about the Overtrail was how poor the clearance in general was and front clearance in particular.
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As someone who works in the off road industry and on behalf of everyone I work with. Thank you for helping all of the forum geeks and TH-cam mechanics understand why they have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to suspension
this guy has no idea what he is talking about
@@BobNob1You have no idea what you're talking about
He uses incredibly small sample sizes that don’t control for all variables and presents it as science. I wouldn’t consider any info he presents as fact.
Alright boys BREAK IT UP!! We all don’t know what we’re talking about.
The 3rd gen 4runner I bought had the worst set up.
-Maxed out suspension lift
-no rear sway bar
-front sway bar
Drove like dogshit. After watching Tinkerers swaybar videos I made the corrections and it made the BIGGEST difference. This is the best channel for this kind of stuff. Amazing, thank you
Can you share what you did to change the setup? Sorry I haven't watched whatever videos you're referring to
@@ananamusly removed strut spacers from front coilovers, put in a rear sway bar and removed the front sway bar.
I also found out the front lift coils didn’t have the proper weight rating to handle arb bumper+winch so will be ordering proper coils eventually
@@kevinVersus adding back in the rear sway bar on my Xterra for some measurements has been on my list since he released that video. Awesome, technical content.
@@thomascarpenter5536 do it up. I have a 1st gen pathfinder and I run no sway bars. It’s lifted on 33’s but I have the clearance for full flex (required cutting)
@@thomascarpenter5536 Definitely worth trying. My stock 2nd gen Frontier seems to get all of it's articulation from the rear end currently. Removing the front swaybar and leaving the rear would probably perform very similarly to how the same setup performs on Toyotas, and a few anecdotes I've heard from other Frontier owners confirms that.
Getting a GX engineer on your channel is the ultimate flex!
You know he is proud of his product and stands behind it. Toyota is lucky to have this man.
Can’t say I’ll buy a GX. But your videos have me sold on Toyota as my next vehicle.
lexus should be paying you for advertisement lol cause your selling the 550 really well
I have a different taste, his video made me want a wrangler even more😅
As a 5th gen 4Runner owner I agree. I would buy the new GX instead of the 6th gen 4Runner
@@dimensioncrosser5862Ew lol
@@dimensioncrosser5862u should see his wrangler vs fj video u did buy the wrangler immediately
Ya but who’s really gonna take that Lexus 550 off road that’s gonna be a pavement princess ….they’ll just get 4 runners and the gx470 Toyota FJ , or some off road midsize pick ups … only people who will try it is people who have money to Just blow cause they bored
I've noticed this trend for a little while now. Rigs with 1.5" lift or less, only 32-33" tires, and lower total vehicle weight seem to walk over obstacles more easily than the incredibly overbuilt vehicles. Just my anecdotal observation.
Yep, I did 1.5” lift on my sequoia and have run 32” and 33” tires. Been a great setup for me for the last 5 years. That combined with a skinner tire and as minimal offset as needed to keep it from rubbing the frame.
I’m only going to go as big as I can fit in the spare tire area. Makes no sense to have to get a hitch carrier to hassle with every time I open the rear lift gate
Couldn't agree more. I originally had the front end of my 2nd gen set at 3" lift w/ 33s, but had maybe 20% down travel and poor handling, always topping down when articulating. I lowered it down over an inch and it is far more capable on high/low speeds, but still has plenty of clearance for most trails I hit.
@TobyCostaRica I had a dirtcom carrier on my GX460 for a minute and i sold it within 3 months. It sucked on a daily driver. I’m just glad my LX570 will fit a 315/70 underneath.
Till you drive down a track that was chewed out by 35-40" and you just belly out all day...
Every bro on tacomaworld needs to watch this
Here 🙋♂️😂
There's gonna be a lot of butt hurt then lol
Especially TacomaBeast
@@jonlosito2004 he’s the biggest bro douche of them all
I kinda miss TW. One of the best places on the web for a good debate.
"Weird flex, but okay" you're a comedic genius 😂
Talking with live examples and data... Compared to others with subjective feelings and non repeatable 'experiments'... This channel is the best.
*"Not lifted" since day 1 in our Lexus GX460. Explaining the reasoning to the masses has been an exercise in futility. The low COG combined with articulation simply keeps things planted. The lifted counterpart already thinks it's in a ditch and starts to get tippy rather than conforming and building confidence. Lastly, all Toyota engineers know what a "lift kit" is and how the ultimate goal of a balanced suspension geometry is the actual aim. Sadly stock suspension geometry is never really put to the test by many buyers because "lift kit" has been pre-programmed in their mind as some sort of offroading prerequisite... or more accurately: they do it for looks*
Yup I noticed how the Aussie channel overcame the struggle in the American trails
I think most people are installing lift kits simply for the looks rather than functionality.
I'm all for not running lifts, especially huge ones. I ran my GX460 for 3 years with the stock suspension, skids and 285/70's and it was fine. But usually lifts consist of better shocks and springs than stock and improve many aspects of the vehicle besides just lifting it. Obviously, Lexus didn't tune the GX460 suspension tuning with pure offroad performance in mind. At the end of the day its used as a grocery getter by 99.9% of first owners and its a compromise of on road comfort and handling with a little offroad sprinkled in. Additionally, most aftermarket shocks for a GX460 are extended travel, meaning you can gain about 1" of additional droop travel. As long as you do not go for a huge amount of lift while doing this, the truck will be improved in most respects.
I went to Bilstein 6112's with the heavy rate springs and kept it as low as possible. Eibach medium rate load leveling springs in the rear with Bilstein 5160's. The truck rode better in all conditions than the factory setup. Since I used the GX to tow, the heavier rate springs were a big improvement there, but still very compliant offroad.
Sadly you are restricting yourself to trails that only requires about 10 inch of ground clearance, which is common in CA where desert trails are usually not that demanding. There are tons of places in other states where stock height GX will immediately get destroyed.
After taking my LC250 out on the trail, it got me thinking that I may not need a lift. It handled everything with ease and comfort. Made it out unscathed. FYI: I did gain 1" of ground clearance running "33s"(32.8in).
Man you're amazing. You're on of the only car creator that actually knows cars. Thanks for the great knowledge man!
Definitely the only one out using NUMBERS to back up his opinions/claims. Love the content!
I concur. Only one talking about these rigs the right way. For real world use.
@@brianpeck697 chinkers are great when it comes to numbers!
@@brianpeck697 not just numbers but the entire scientific method, he has theory, hypothesis, experimentation, analysis, conclusion and iterations, the videos are about as complete as they can be.
I am on my fifth IFS ute (truck) now and this one I've left bog stock in the suspension both ends.
Although it helps being a Ranger Raptor, I had a previous gen RR prior to this one with a 2" lift both ends and cannot believe how much better the new standard one performs over the "improved" one (and the other three lifted vehicles I had prior)...
I agree with your point about the specific type of offroading you do being important to understand before modifying, or leaving standard, your 4x4. In my case, standard height causes no problems as never work it on rocky trails where clearance is critical.
This is one of the best produced videos I have seen on this topic!!!! Well done to you and the crew that helped put it together
This is by far the most informative channel on 4wd suspension. You're making me want to flex test my Pajero Evolution as I have 40mm lift and fixed swaybars... interesting to see how much flex I've lost!
I wanna see that. New Pajero SWB owner.
My target is for corrugated roads, sand, and minor travels. All with easy maintenance and low price. Not interested in spending heaps for rock-crawling or river crossing, that is more a job for modified Nissan Patrol, Toyota Prado, and Lexus LX models.
Just tried this with some wood blocks and Rhino ramps on my stock '21 Chevy Colorado ZR2 (sway bar connected). I still was making good contact with the ground (front and rear) so I did not get full flex but I measured 4.5 in the front and 14.75 in the rear. This channel certainly has done a good job of showing some very valuable 4x4 suspension information. Keep them coming.
Update: I built some taller ramps and disconnected the sway bar. Front Flex: 6.5 in. Rear Flex: 15.25 in. Total: 21.75 in. I was at the end of my ramps still so there might even be a little more flex yet.
men of culture, here we meet again
Good video! Articulation flex is one thing, however approach, departure, and breakover angles are another. Maybe you should differentiate more between the two. Also, you're using vehicles with IFS, which are not as good off road compared to solid axles. I have a 2 door JK with 2 1/2" lift, 35's, and disconnect sway bar links, and the articulation is far higher than stock. Cheers from Canada.
I have a 2024 Nissan Pro 4X so glad I did NOT rush into lifting and am constantly researching. So glad I found your channel. There is a reason why NISMO only has 1.5 inch of lift kit for the PRO 4 X and nothing more. It’s all about proper articulation and clearance.
For the most part many of us who go on dirt will be on it once a month along side those who own a stock Subaru.
@@rockkstah2550 well…and cost and prob CV factory warranty, and possibly vehicle stability liability. I have a 23’ pro4x. I’d never use the Nismo lift. It’s spacers and blocks. No no no. Z1 off-road is a good source.
Look at the Titan swap. I bet Nissan Titan front suspension components would bolt right up. Giving you a wider stance and way more travel.
I put 4x4 on my Corvette and it's now unstoppable...my friend's Unimog could not keep up!
Suspension droop is the un-sexy unsung hero in the offroad world. Jack the thing up, so you can put bigger tires on so it looks cool is unfortunately what way to many people are after vs actually performing well off road. Thanks for helping all of us data geeks get our numbers fix tinker!
@@rotorhead5000 yup, and the big fat tires with 20” rims. Yuk
@@monocogenit1 Ugh, I know it
Bigger tires go over larger objects. Performs better off road because it doesn't smash into bushes, logs, rocks. What's the point of flexy suspension when you physically run into things with your skid plate and bumper?
Thank you!!!! EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS, I have 8" front 10" rear lift with super flex springs cut out fenders and 37" tires, I STUFF the tires in the wheel wells on full flex and can crawl over things with the bigger tires.
NB: This applies only to IFS, not a solid axle. My XJ has 33" tires on a 4" lift and I cut back the wheel wells to make more room. Now I have lots of extra travel, up and down, both front and rear. IFS is great on road but I'll stick to solids off road for both travel and strength.
@@mojrimibnharb4584 for more activities???!! And for strength?? Dana 35s?? lol
@@monocogenit1 Is there a question somewhere in there?
I've never off-roaded, yet I'm fascinated by your strictly rigorous engineering approach. Very well done and I learn something with everyone of your videos.
As a wheeler of full independent suspension vehicles, yes you are correct, and for most 'overlanders' and softroaders flex is more helpful than clearance. But for me and most people/places i wheel, clearance is more important as flex doesn't help you get un-turtled from large rocks. But you don't see many people talking about this though it seems common sense...stiffer suspension means less flex.
Thanks!
Thank you for the support!
This is why I would love to see you review the Bronco and similar mods. The stock Bronco flexes very well (with disconnect of course) because of the decent wheel travel and specifically the down travel. Ability to fully stuff the jounce tire is also pretty good. So many common mods really kill the flex and give IFS a bad reputation.
Agree! I haven't seen it in person, but I watched a lot of Bronco videos and they do seem to be quite impressive for IFS. I'd also be curious to see an LE3 or LR4 Land Rover with air suspension, the way they work is as one wheel goes up, the air forces the opposite wheel down, so it functions almost like a solid axle.
@@trailrunnah8886 LX570 AHC does the same thing. Thats why an AHC LX can flex as well as a KDSS Land Cruiser stock vs stock.
My friend took me on some mountain trails in Ouray, Colorado in a stock late 70's Jeep. There were lifted jeeps and fjs everywhere. I was completely blown away by what we could go up and down. I haven't modified my truck, and probably will only replace the shocks. I don't want to lift it and see no advantage to it. 4wd and a locker will get you very far.
My gf test drive a bronco, with a factory lift kit and 35" tires. An extra $13k in value. It was stupid and didn't look good. A level bronco on 31-32" tires looks so much better and I'm sure performs at 95% of what a lifted one can, without the crappy on road experience.
@@Alan-bm3ni Old jeeps are a lot different than modern Toyota's though. The GX460 in this video comes with pretty atrocious clearance stock. Mine was stock with 33's on it and still was smacking running boards and bumpers and the trailer hitch on mild forest service roads.
A Bronco has much better approach and departure angles but the 4 door version has a pretty long wheelbase so breakover could be a concern.
This is a great video! I’ll have to watch it again to get all the info but it’s a great crash course in some stuff I didn’t even know I didn’t know!
The principle is what I learned about 15 years ago called a “low center of gravity” lift, or “LCG”
Suspensions built for prerunners also use this principle in their builds. Huge 35 BFG Baja TA with plenty of limitation of uptravel, but huge amounts of downtravel at each wheel.
Yeah that down travel equals better grip -- as shown in the video.
Huge 35s is an oxymoron unless you have a Time Machine to go back to the 90s.
@@sbcbaits994You are the oxymoron.
@@thecircuitbox your mom likes oxymorons.
Well done, as usual. When people can't understand why my raptor can often go where lifted vehicles can't, it's often the droop. I try explaining this and a large proportion of people simply look confused. Some totally get it. Lifts, body lifts... all have their place depending on people's budgets, needs (and wants). All good. Info like this video help people prioritize or plan their upgrades.
This was a great presentation. Broke it up enough with b roll, dialog was straight to the point with no fluff. Great job!
I simply removed my front sway bar from my 1st gen Sequoia, and when combined with the basic 2 inch lift the front articulation is pretty impressive for what it is. Plenty of droop, but also stuffs the front 33s into the fender. I personally think the fat tire and low offset craze is kind of ridiculous. Your videos have helped me get my Sequoia performing pretty well.
The smart people with GX's run 4Runner TRD Offroad wheels with +15mm offset that the 4Runner bro's sell to replace with Methods or SCS wheels. 🤣 We don't look that cool, but its cheap and functional and was able to fit 285/70's with minimal effort.
It depends on the type of terrain you re trying to overcome with your vehicle. For touring, 31s or 33s are perfect but if you re going to rock crawl with 32 or 33s, a rig on 35s or 37s is going to do it better because they have a higher approach and departure angles, more sidewall to play with and are higher off the ground in general. It would be the same if you re on a trail with deep ruts where articulation for which a rock crawler is designed for, your differential won't be caught as much as well as your rear leafs if you have those, on potential rocks. I have a 78 series Land Cruiser on 33s that I use for touring with a roof top tent and all the accessories, I use it to travel all over the country and I have a GU Patrol on 35s with portal axles for tough trails. They cannot do each others job as they are built to perform different tasks.
This is incredible. I’ve thought of lifts just moving the truck up the useable travel without actually adding more flex but never known of the science behind it. Great job explaining this, testing it, and visualizing this.
Brilliant video, you knocked it out of the ball park with this one, illustrations are clear and concise and so informative.
One viable I’m hoping you keep even across the board is tire pressure. A deflated tire compresses more too. We used to get substantially better RTI scores on solid axle Jeep back in the day by running 10-15psi (crawling pressure) in our 40 inch tires.
This is such an underrated channel. It's criminal. Love your work man, keep it up.
My old grand cherokee is on stock 29.5's with the factory suspension. Other than raw ground clearance at the rear diff, which is already 8 inches, ive never had problems with clearance and it has gotten me everywhere ive wanted
Congrats on the ONX sponsor! I've torn my Chevy suspesnion apart so many times to understand how suspension actually works. I have twice the suspension travel on my truck thats raised 2.5 inches than my buddies 6 inch lifted truck does. Its quite interesting how it works.
My tahoe has 5.5 inches of total front end travel, which isnt much. Its less than stock. But, most torsion bar chevys only travel 3 inches up front once theyre lifted... my rear axle uses GM stuff with a custom trackbar and longer shocks, and has 16 inches of travel in the back
My stock 200 Series has always done just fine off road. Tin Cup, Engineer Pass ect. The only thing I have added are K2’s over the OEM tires, and Bud Built Rock Sliders and Skid Plates. Granted I’m not hitting crazy truck breaking trails, but most people aren’t. You need to upgrade to meet your needs and remember that every pound you add to the rig should be well thought out.
Our family runs 3 stock jeep rubicons. Only two things stop us: deep snow and skinny sxs trails where we dont fit. The articulation combined with front and rear lockers gets us through some crazy pucker up trails
another awesome video - always happy to see your subs grow
Wow, this is such a well madez informative video! Kudos to the excellent script writing and production!
Good knowledge, thanks! Since I am planning to purchase an off-road camper/truck with trailer combo within a few years I recently got into overlanding and am dousing myself with all kinds of information. I admit I was one of those noobs who thought lifting automatically makes a car better off road. Apparently not so.
Hey, great video. Love how technical you are. I would love to see an analysis like that for a Rivian R1S to understand better how it perform/work. I own one, but we are probably too far for a quick test.
I have a 2inch lift and 32” on 16” and absolutely love it,
Everything in this video is why I support the use of bracket lifts on properly built rigs. Everyone out there is chasing bigger tires, so they crank their pre-load and lose down-travel. All that pre-load requires more weight to overcome it and compress that spring, so they lose up-travel as well. All that and they have a set-up that looks cool, but has 5" of total travel and 35" tires.
Since a bracket lift moves the wheel travel range downwards relative to the frame and body, it increases the room for bigger tires without sacrificing up-travel or down-travel. For example, my truck has a 7" BDS bracket lift, and I reduced the pre-load on the coils to achieve 5.5" of total suspension lift over factory. I have ~12" of total wheel travel on my IFS, with half of that being down-travel. And I run 40" tires without rubbing at full compression. I use the bigger tires for increased ground clearance, which helps especially on the rear solid axle.
I hope that Kai can one day make a video detailing the pros and cons of a bracket lift on IFS trucks. I feel like it's information that everyone should know even if they're not in the market for a bracket lift.
Agreed. That is reason I got 6100 strut from Bilstien and has more travel but lift aboit 2.5 inch max just to fit 35. The rear add one leaf sprig about 2 inch with longer travel shocks . It's for Titan XD mot a Toyota but has similar issues.
So glad I initially went 2”-1.5” lift on my FJ but 34” tires. Lifted the belly up more without making the CV’s vulnerable and handles amazing
Great video, as someone that has always had solid axle off-road rigs I would have never thought of how the IFS rigs geometry would end up functioning like this.
This also reminds me of the Nissan world, Especially for F-alpha platform. We do "Titan swap" on front suspension for wider track width (3in wider on each side) This helps with better total travel distance both up and down. And with longer CV axles, it helps to eliminate binding when reach to full droop.
These videos are gold. Truth in experimentation reveals many incorrect assumptions. Love them.
Great video, informative, in depth, and well produced
this is a super cool video! so many people throw parts and upgrades at a truck and don't think of what the big picture will be or have any real goals for the vehicle's capabilities. It's just "upgrade this" "upgrade that". some parts you "upgrade" make the vehicle worse in some other way and it all adds up! The real question is "how much ground clearance is enough" how much ground clearence makes you feel comfortable to take on any / most trails?
This is a great video. Most people don't understand the physics, engineering and mechanics of this. I've never been a fan of lifts, especially really big and expensive ones. They usually cause more problems than they solve.
All right, I’m dragging my ramps out tomorrow. I want to see my AHC numbers vs. Chris. 😁
Please do! Let me know your results!!! Make a video if you could
I need to know!
@@TinkerersAdventurethat would be a great follow up video. Really showcasing all 3 of Toyotas main suspension system
Basically if it has KDSS leave it alone. Get some shocks for ride quality and get a portal axle lift. Leaves all the factory specs in place and will help with clearance.
@@timjohanson588 portals is the dream
Pretty much. And portals are only $20k…
As a smug stock 3rd gen Tacoma owner, I did a bunch of research and came to the same conclusions. This is the first vehicle, after many modified ones, that I’ve decided to leave completely stock and I am loving it.
Also same, also the Tacoma has some concerning mpg so lifting it will make it even worse 😂
I understand this and it's why I try to wheel my WK2 on standard height or OR1 and really only use OR2 for clearing really large stuff.
1st gen tundra here... Front is a Bilstein 6112 lifted 1.5" and rear is lifted approximately 1" with RAS Active Suspension set-up, 5100s, and oem leafs. Running 255/80/17s.
Its been solid off-road and feels great on the road. Havent done any major articulation tests but when i went on some obstacles with my lifted 4runner buddy on 34s it had no issues. Thoughts on my setup?
When I was planning my lift on my '18 GX, I probably watched your IFS videos about this 20 times or so. I went with the same extended travel coilovers, and achieved a tiny bit more articulation over stock while gaining a few inches from the suspension/fitting 33's. It's been nothing short of amazing out on the trails I like to go on. Thanks for sharing the testing and research!
Can you share the details of the overall setup
@@AlexM-np1cx yeah, for sure.
Ironman stage 2 foam cell pro kit (2.5” front which I backed off a tiny bit, and 2” rear which I also backed off a tiny bit, as the air bag delete kit I also got from them adds 1/2”), I’mprobably sitting at around 2.15” of suspension lift after settling.
DrKDSS botck, KDSS spacers, kdss switch,
SCS -10mm Ray10 17” wheels, 285/70R17 Load C Toyo RT Trails, body mount chop, lots of fender liner heating and reforming. JWOffroad single tire carrier to handle the oversized spare.
OEM trans cooler, Redarc trailer brake controller.
It’s been a wonderful rig to get out on pretty gnarly trails, yet still drives nicely on-road. The setup really helped with approach and departure angles, which from time to time it still struggles with.
Been off roading my entire life from atvs jeeps trucks sxs heavy machinery at work. In my experience ground clearance is king flex is important obviously but can be overcome to an extent with front and rear lockers. Most times I've been stuck I've been hung up on something either rocks deep ruts high centered. Also high clearance vehicles are better at river crossings especially swift water in Rockies like snow melt combined with storms flooding can happen quick. Snorkel doesn't help much if your washed down the river. When done right in most circumstances the higher vehicle will do better.
This is my favorite auto/Toyota/Lexus/Overland channel next to “The Car Care Nut”.
Thank you for making this video follow up to your original Toyota suspension series. I had lowered my 4Runner from a 3” to a 1” lift but my ego was starting to crave a higher lift again… putting those skid plates to work!
What an eye opener! I have a Westcott Designs Lexus GX 550 Preload Collar Lift Kit. I gained 2 1/2" of lift in the front and 3/4" in the back. It allows me to run Toyo Open Country AT III 35x12.5x17 tires on Method MR703 BeadGrip 17x8.5 wheels with a +35 offset. I was focused on improving the Approach & Departure angles and hadn't considered the flex ramifications. But it sure gives the 550 a great look!
Frank, please get rid of the spacer lift. Those things are garbage and don't listen to what Westcott says about it not affecting performance. With any type of spacer lift, performance will be worse in all aspects and they will ride like donkey shit. Just the facts.
@@Gazziza29 You do know that the factory Land Cruiser 200 series had the option of a 10mm spacer lift? The factory shocks still have plenty of uptravel available after the bump stops engage, so a small spacer only moves the shock down slightly but improves down travel and retains up travel without damage to shocks.
Spacer lifts are not bad if you do it right and keep the shock protected by bump stops.
@@Jay-me7gw BIG difference between a 10mm spacer vs 60+mm. Pre-load spacers are the least desirable type, you're trading every mm of downtravel for every mm of lift. With strut spacers, at least some downtravel is retained, limited only by CV angle and upper control arm spring contact.
@@royj8549 the Westcott design spacer is not 60mm. They are like 10mm. I doubt anyone makes a 60mm spacer, that would lift the front like 5".
Also, why would a pre-load spacer trade any travel. All its doing is compressing the spring a little more. The shock still has the same travel range. Yes it will be harder to fully compress, but thats how any lift works.
And a preload spacer is the only way to help the suspension cope with heavier weight from winches, bumpers, skids, etc besides going to stiffer springs.
@@Jay-me7gw Usually, spacer height refers to effective height. Just like when we talk travel on a GX, we're not talking strut shaft travel, but effective wheel travel factoring in motion ratio.
As shown by the GX460 in the video, factory spring rates are chosen so you're at bump stops under corner loading / articulation. You raise it 60mm (2.5"), and you won't use that extra bump travel, but you lose that in droop. A strut spacer maintains the bump / droop ratio within a couple %
For weight compensation, sure. But not a 2.5" spacer. For GX460: 730 lb-in x 2 x .53 motion ratio = 774 lbs per inch of sag. How much weight you adding to the front end?
After watching the previous sway bar video, on my 3rd gen 4Runner, i:
- took off the front sway bar, left rear in place
- went from 700 lb front springs to 600
So far? Well, with no front sway, it's more ponderous on pavement, amplified by a switch to 'pizza cutter' sized KM3 tires. But off road? Way more balanced articulation. Previously I'd say that the body did about 90% of what the front wheels were doing, which isn't always a good thing. After? It's still somewhat front biased, but as a totally subjective guess, I'd call it 60/40. But I can really feel how the car is splitting the difference now, instead of making the rear axle do all the work.
(1" body lift, 33" tires, 3" suspension lift, double locked, crawl box, manual trans '99)
Love it, and it's not the sort of thing I would ever have thought up to try on my own.
PS: I'm keeping the lift, I use the skid plates enough as is!
Always very informative videos from this channel, thank you!
Best off road video I've ever watched. Bro, keep doing these.
In Thailand, since factory rear locker come as standard in 4x4, we don't lift that high like in rigid axel era. Stock IFS with few lifted saves $$$ and capable enough on most terrain except rock climbing & water crossing. My 4x4 is 1.5" lifted on stock IFS and trim the fender to put 35" tire. Easy to drive and not easy to rollover. And on extreme 4x4 trip, I just left my sway bar at home.
Outstanding video! Bravo! 👏👏👏
I don't "wheel" per se but do take a '16 F150 out into the Mojave to a couple of my favorite "fishin' holes". We fish for tin cans, paper, AR500 alloy, that kind of thing. Meanwhile, I wanted a little more ground clearance for my rig.
2" is the generally accepted limit to "level" a stock truck; after that you can get into the problems Tinkerer's Adventure describes here, and from lack of "droop", or, suspension downtravel. And since I carry gear in the bed of the truck and sometimes hang a small trailer's tongue weight on the hitch receiver, I did not level the front of my truck to 2" but instead opted for 1.5" front lift via the Bilstein 6112 (also, Bilstein 5100s offer a similar, 5-postition spring saddle placement before assembly), knowing that I was preserving some downtravel by not topping out my lift height. The compromise, there, payed dividends, as Tinkerer's Adventure illustrates so well in this video.
I recently ditched the zero-offset 17 X 8.5 wheels I was running in favor of a +25 Method 705, which when wearing a new, NARROWER tire (Toyo's ATIII 34 X 10.50 X R17LT D Load Range), has eliminated the rubbing issues at full steering lock that I was having when using the zero offset. And the new tire is also TALLER. Win/win. Great vid, as always.
Such a great explanation of lift versus articulation! Helps me with my decision to NOT lift my KDSS-equipped 4Runner.
The one thing you miss by not lifting is extended travel shocks. Running extended travel shocks with minimal lift will be an improvement in terms of total articulation and still allow the truck to flex. Its when you start going 2.5, 3, or 3.5" of lift that things start to go sideways, but with the right shock and spring selection you could easily keep it to 1" lift.
Thanks. Any recommendations on longer travel shocks?
@@toddmanning7844 Most any lift shock should be extended travel. Eibach, Bilstein, OME, Dobinsons, Ironman, Fox, Icon, King.
Which ones just depend on your budget.
You could also put 1/2” spacers up front and 1” spacers in the rear for very little money and have the same effect. Check out some of the earlier Toyota suspension videos on this channel.
I wish I new more, I got my first truck - fj-80 95 and it came with some lift, think it's 3" not sure, but I have to work on it and give it basic care before I can really take it off-road. Definitely a fun world to explore
People are eager to sacrfice down travel to gain clearance for larger tires.
I am going to stick to lower lifts and properly clearancing for larger tires.
This. And not run 12.5" wide tires with -38mm offset SCS wheels because they look dope. Get some skinnier tires with appropriate offset so you can continue to stuff them.
Ifs lifts dont create clearance for larger tires. If it rubs stock, itll rub lifted. Unless you never cycle your suspension
@@marcochavanne this is the way
@Dougcruiser100 Yeah but since it can’t flex for shit, as shown in this video, it kinda does.
@@Jay-me7gwon the gx with a simple preload you can very easily run a 35x12.5 on a 17x8.5 but that is a massive off set. IDE recommend a+35 and you still are able to get full articulation on the gx550.
What a great video. Perfectly explained in just over 10 min. Great job.
Great work Tink! Gives us overlanders and off-roaders much to consider
Best suspension explanation ever!! Nice Vid.
Excellent video I wonder if you think Active Height control would be a benefit on the GX 550 in addition to the EKDSS. So that you can improve ground clearance when you need to
I learn something awesome every time you post, thanks man!
Not all lifts are dond at tgd expense of teavel. On my lift (not a toyota) the lower control arm is repositioned with add on crosmembers and a longer knuckle and modified upper A arm move compensate for the larger distance between upper and lower A arms.
Especially those done to solid axles, which more or less don't care how high they're lifted.
That 200 series is what dreams are made of
Except it’s rear bump
Stops are wrong!
we need a video about swapping tundra control arms!
Wonderinf if the tundra uppers were used as well and if tundra cv shafts fitted? @@bakhtiyarpakhirdinov2461
200 series over the 250/550 all day long!
except the blown upper ball joint. RIP
For anyone who doesn't know: ground clearance comes from tire size. Don't get a six inch lift when a 3 will tuck the same tire
Very informative. This is exactly why 2nd Gen Xterra's and Frontier's upgrade to Titan suspension, to gain more articulation. Longer Upper/Lower/Axles etc.
Great insight backed by easy to understand measurements.
It really depends entirely on the environment in which you are wheeling in. In rocks, you will need clearance. In mud and water as well. Some times you want wide tires, in others, narrow. Various setups accel in different conditions.
Looking forward to the gx550 full review. Im hoping you will cover things like axle and differential size and strength, etc! Also curious what a rear seat delete would ultimately look like!
I have a 200 with long travel arms. I'm getting 13in of travel with stock AHC shocks. I added 1.25" strut spacers to change the range of motion (sacrificing compression for droop) making my wheel travel more usable. I did have to cut 2 in out the fender. It is a happy compromise to run 35s and not have to limit travel. Great videos keep it up
Thats awesome, 13" travel with AHC.
I think I saw your thread on ih8mud.
@@Jay-me7gw that is probably me. Haven't posted on there in years. I was only getting 12 then but when I cut my fenders I found more movement 🤙
It's all about balancing the trade-off. That's the big takeaway. Lots of wheelers are forced into trading IFS articulation for approach/departure, breakover, and center-line clearance because of longer wheelbase. I run 31s and no lift on a Gen1 SWB Montero which is the max I'll ever go. The short wheelbase guys have it a lot easier but, in scenario's like your ramp test they get very tippy really quickly. And that's the trade-off I've made.
Very well thought out video. Great job explaining this issue.
This has really turned my thinking process around about lifts. Thanks kai!
Absolutely love every video you make these days, Kai. Really interesting! I love how you demonstrate things, instead of simply talking about them.
I just bought ( my bank did) a 214 Runner TRD offroad. and I happen to think its the perfect height. All I want to change up is the wheels/tires. And maybe a few LED mods. other than that, It's perfect.
Great video. I have a 2005 LJ Wrangler with a 2 inch lift and 32 inch tires, 4.56 gears and Detroit Tru Trac (Torsen ) in the front diff and stock limited diff in the rear. People are amazed at what this como can do. As you show, bigger is not always better.
Amazing video man! Killed it as always.
Thank you brotha!
Rollover!!
I owned "Opel Frontera Sport B" (Isuzu Amigo based Vauxhall).
It was considered crappy due to low lift and "only" LSD in rear differential.
However it was a blast in mountains!!! 20° traverse was like nothing for that car! (Manufacturer claimed 40° but I didn't have the guts).
Meanwhile my friend totaled "superior" Land Cruiser due to roll over 🤷
In the end of the day it depends on the case. Different off-roading requires or at least favours different suspension (and not only) setups. Furthermore, a thing you said yourself, it matters how you lift the vehicle. A proper lift means all the parts can work with each other - longer shocks, longer control arms, adjusted bump stops, maybe limit straps, removing the anti roll bar altogether, a lot of factors depending on your particular setup and needs. There's a difference between changing the ride height and putting a lift kit.
Solid axles for the win
Exactly, Kai!!! As always!!! The question for IFS lifters should always be, “do you even downtravel, bro?” Downtravel is 60% of off-road suspension capability … when you lose down travel, you lose vehicle capability. 👍👍
Sounds like a body lift might be the best choice. Great video!! 👍👍
Best truck hands down ive driven offroad had 400mm clearance, sisu sa-240.
Ideally a 1" lift with 1" longer shocks/coilovers and a proper bracket diff drop kit is ideal setup. Then fit as big a tyre as can fit, regear and lockers, underbody protection and youll go almost anywhere. Here in Oz, the smart offroaders keep em as low as possible.
Your channel is excellent. It has changed how I look at suspension setup. I am interested in RC crawlers as well. My most recent RC build was definitely inspired by your "lessons" about balance and making all four corners working more harmoniously. Without going into detail on the setup, the end result is a chassis that stays very level while going through it's articulation cycle It has the ability to "float" a tire across a gap without dropping the tire too fast, which keeps the chassis much more planted and less prone to rocking.
I always look forward to your videos, as they are of the highest quality and are very intelligent. Keep up the good work.
Droop travel setups has been popular in the RC crawler world for a while. Some guys will run their RC's with the shocks basically bottomed out at normal ride height so the tires can only drop down. It lowers the center of gravity and also makes it so that, when the truck is on a side hill or climbing, the downhill shocks are already bottomed out and wont cause the truck to lean and roll.
I had a TRX4 that I put extended shock towers on, and ran 120mm shocks at stock ride height. All the added shock length was in droop only and the thing was like a damn spider. The tires almost never left the ground ever.
Great vid, and I was all ready to jump into the comments and talk about how clearance matters too but you covered it. I went to check out the new GX in person last week and the very first thing I saw about the Overtrail was how poor the clearance in general was and front clearance in particular.
Great episode and content. Thanks to all the guys involved in this🤝