It’s a good thing that your god isn’t the author of confusion. Otherwise, these types of conversations would droll on for hours, days, years, decades…and create endless separation. Oh, wait a minute…….😂
Looks like you are not used to taking a deep dive into a topic and consider all the possibilities. Most people go with the --chosen by others narrative - we have been given the function of reason so as not to do that. So, by all means be aware of what is thought to be the case, and cast in bronze, but there is no law that says we have to be on board with it. Especially if it does not make sense or resonate with our intuitive intelligence which exists for a reason; not just as an afterthought.
God is supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving and compassionate, but he somehow ended up creating a world where his sentient creation have to rip each other into pieces for survival. Yikes.
“God provides a way to redeem suffering? You don’t know that for sure, nobody does. You just have faith that he will, not actual proof. What makes more sense to me, is the evolutionary process you mention, what I refer to as karma. That makes living with suffering, daily, not comfortable, but somewhat more understandable to “why” for me. And therefore I can use my practice to overcome suffering (karma) in this lifetime. Not wait for some unknown redemption.
All I'm gonna say. You said "You just have faith that he will, not actual proof" then called the "evolutionary process" "Karma"... Why did a child get cancer under this "Karma" system.
Housebound and bedridden for 17 years with no treatments or cure for M.E.CFS & FIBROMYALGIA 16ish years of prayers unanswered I am now 6months an athiest because the simplest and most plausible explanation for suffering is there has never been a God. It all makes total sense without a God
God is the ultimate placebo. So often, religion treats or suppresses the symptoms and not the cause. Then, people expect this to be a permanent solution and will blame you if it doesn’t work. It takes a lot of emotional strength to realize that God can’t help you. Once you get past that point, it becomes easier to seek real solutions based in self-understanding and human psychology. I was fortunate enough to deconvert over intellectual rather than emotional issues. I can understand how it might be difficult to convince people that you are being genuine and not just “angry at God”. I would offer to pray for you, but that’s not quite right. We atheists need an equivalent expression without the attached superstition and piety.
You have it backwards. Under a naturalist accidental paradigm, which begs a dysteliological universe, knowledge and meaning doesnt exist as everything its just an effect of chemicals and matter leading straight into the determinism trap. What you are advocating is a world in which no standards or truth exists, everything is arbitrary and shallow which also renders your critique of a teleological world impotent and self refuting
@@seanpierce9386 The placebo comment is weak reddit tier level atheism. God isnt a just so story but rather logical entailment of the first paradigm shifting question from which everything follows. Either the universe is created or not. Either God is existence or not. Nothing in that question has the quality of a placebo its a fundamental axiomatic question we are lead to through logic and its valid in form. Ironically Atheist talk like religious people all the time making statements totally against the world view they say they dont have, having to forever deny how limiting and paradoxical their perception of the world is by constantly denying the the metaphysical tools and lines of argumentation they use all the time
You can believe whatever you want but that doesn’t make it true. The God of the Bible makes it clear suffering is apart of the fallen creation. You can’t see God, that’s just as bad as your disease. Be honest with yourself and see this world as broken and messed up as the Bible. Your heart is actually built in with a tendency to not understand God, this condition is horrible.
Thankyou loving Christian for your understanding and empathy. Its comments like yours that turn people away from religion keep up the good work👏 The one bright side of my illness is it helped me to be honest with myself about what I really believe I started using my rational brain once again. I have done my due diligence in researching the claims of Christianity now and the evidence is not good, far from it. Thanks again for showing the goodness mercy and power of your god to heal. I don't want to keep you from all your miraculous work you have planned for today.. bye
If there was unity there would be no suffering but then nothing would be manifest either; as in order to have a physical or material world it has to have matter and be visible. Where there is duality there is opposition hence good and bad. Without duality we could have unity but likely not at a physical level. It would mean inertness without motion; without past; present; or future. Before the fall there was unity but the physical or elemental came into existence and a drama gets played out here. Choose good and suffer less; keep banging your head against a stone wall and you will suffer more. There is also the idea in the East of karma; personal karma; and mass karma. So it is a drama; but it is said it is also a dream in the mind of God and nothing is real except God or consciousness, and like a nightly dream we can have a nightmare but wake up unharmed as it all took place in the mind; so it is said about life as well.
Contrary to popular Christian teaching the final judgment is not separation from God but the full presence of his wrath against sin. Suffering comes from God. Revelation 14:10-11
@@yourfriendlyneighborhoodin1559 In the sense that we are not in unity but in duality of both good and bad options and outcomes; it comes from God since the fall. Not all of it comes from God as some through wrong actions bring suffering on themselves. As there is free will, even though they are in the grip of strong habits; still they have the option of freeing themselves and changing and making their life better. There is what they call in the East mass karma; so apart from our individual wrongs we have to endure the ill effects of the wrong doing of the race as well.
@@ALavin-en1kr it's immediately amazing how correct Doctrine is challenged by The Armenian vs Calvinism debate. It's almost like it's super duper important... or something.
@@yourfriendlyneighborhoodin1559 I am not too familiar with these; maybe knowing a little more about the Calvinism doctrine which is depressing. It has been said Christ was crucified once and his teaching has been crucified numerous times. The Catholic Church sought to prevent this by having a successor to Peter and a Council to determine articles of faith that could be shared with the faithful. Transubstantiation was a tough one, but they symbolized it in the Mass. There was Luther and his nun; breaking the rules is one thing and just leaving. Leaving and trying to change the Church to correspond to one’s choice is another thing. A lay ministry would be good and that has evolved now with Epistle readers and helpers in non-ceremonial roles.
I seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Satan . In the name of Allah (God almighty ) , the most gracious, the most merciful . * Say , He is Allah , the One , the Eternal , He does not beget , nor was he begotten , and there is no one ( Like or ) comparable to Him * (Quran)
Always fearful when a "scientist" believes in magic woo woo like a man walking on water, turning water to wine, or floating up up into the clouds to the heaven lands in the sky
Allah the Almighty said: * And know that the life of this world is but amusement and diversion and adornment and boasting to one another and competition in increase of wealth and children - like the example of spring after the rain, its vegetation pleases the Farmers; then it withers and you see it turning yellow; then it becomes dry chaff. And in the Hereafter is a severe punishment. And forgiveness from Allah and approval. And the life of this world is not but the enjoyment of delusion.* (Quran)
God creates everything. Within everything exists suffering. Therefor god created suffering. Suffering is bad therefor god is not good. A god that is not good should not be praised.
@@christopherflux6254 creating the potential for suffering is still immoral. Why would a god do that? And yet creating potential for suffering is just semantics in a way as it still means god created suffering as potential still guarantees suffering as it is impossible for any known being to avoid it.
@christopherflux6254 if I make a planet and it is up to me to choose whether or not there will be the possibility of child diddlers and I choose for there to be the possibility of that. What would you think of me?
@@jr8260 You didnt think that through at all. Without free will good nor evil means nothing. The story of the fall tells us that God gave us humans the choice between the garden or free will and our ancestors chose free will. Its like if you have children are you going to tyrannically helicopter them 100% of the day so they cant make mistakes because its all your decisions or are you going to give them the option to actually have their own free will with all the good and bad that it entails? Not being a controlling dictator comes with with the downsides of your children being freee to do stuff you dont agree with. Stop being a lying satanist inverting clear cut unambiguous narratives
@@michaelshannon9169 Not being a controlling dictator comes with with the downsides of your children being free to do stuff you dont agree with if they chose free will for themselves. How is that difficult to understand? How does that put any blame on God? Sure he could have prevented us from taking free will without asking him first but that would have made him a control freak not respecting our wish to have the power of EVERY choice. Free will was never forcefully withheld in the garden but taken without care for the warnings. And in our arrogance we became responsible for the fallen state of everything. The biblical explanation of the existence of a fallen world is absolutely coherent and very profound even if you dont believe the christian faith is true.
Suffering is a tool. We are made in Gods image and likeness, our suffering is just ours, he feels all of our suffering and his own.
It’s a good thing that your god isn’t the author of confusion. Otherwise, these types of conversations would droll on for hours, days, years, decades…and create endless separation. Oh, wait a minute…….😂
Looks like you are not used to taking a deep dive into a topic and consider all the possibilities. Most people go with the --chosen by others narrative - we have been given the function of reason so as not to do that.
So, by all means be aware of what is thought to be the case, and cast in bronze, but there is no law that says we have to be on board with it. Especially if it does not make sense or resonate with our intuitive intelligence which exists for a reason; not just as an afterthought.
God is supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving and compassionate, but he somehow ended up creating a world where his sentient creation have to rip each other into pieces for survival. Yikes.
“God provides a way to redeem suffering? You don’t know that for sure, nobody does. You just have faith that he will, not actual proof. What makes more sense to me, is the evolutionary process you mention, what I refer to as karma. That makes living with suffering, daily, not comfortable, but somewhat more understandable to “why” for me. And therefore I can use my practice to overcome suffering (karma) in this lifetime. Not wait for some unknown redemption.
All I'm gonna say. You said "You just have faith that he will, not actual proof" then called the "evolutionary process" "Karma"...
Why did a child get cancer under this "Karma" system.
Housebound and bedridden for 17 years with no treatments or cure for M.E.CFS & FIBROMYALGIA 16ish years of prayers unanswered I am now 6months an athiest because the simplest and most plausible explanation for suffering is there has never been a God. It all makes total sense without a God
God is the ultimate placebo. So often, religion treats or suppresses the symptoms and not the cause. Then, people expect this to be a permanent solution and will blame you if it doesn’t work. It takes a lot of emotional strength to realize that God can’t help you. Once you get past that point, it becomes easier to seek real solutions based in self-understanding and human psychology.
I was fortunate enough to deconvert over intellectual rather than emotional issues. I can understand how it might be difficult to convince people that you are being genuine and not just “angry at God”. I would offer to pray for you, but that’s not quite right. We atheists need an equivalent expression without the attached superstition and piety.
You have it backwards. Under a naturalist accidental paradigm, which begs a dysteliological universe, knowledge and meaning doesnt exist as everything its just an effect of chemicals and matter leading straight into the determinism trap. What you are advocating is a world in which no standards or truth exists, everything is arbitrary and shallow which also renders your critique of a teleological world impotent and self refuting
@@seanpierce9386 The placebo comment is weak reddit tier level atheism. God isnt a just so story but rather logical entailment of the first paradigm shifting question from which everything follows. Either the universe is created or not. Either God is existence or not. Nothing in that question has the quality of a placebo its a fundamental axiomatic question we are lead to through logic and its valid in form. Ironically Atheist talk like religious people all the time making statements totally against the world view they say they dont have, having to forever deny how limiting and paradoxical their perception of the world is by constantly denying the the metaphysical tools and lines of argumentation they use all the time
You can believe whatever you want but that doesn’t make it true. The God of the Bible makes it clear suffering is apart of the fallen creation. You can’t see God, that’s just as bad as your disease. Be honest with yourself and see this world as broken and messed up as the Bible. Your heart is actually built in with a tendency to not understand God, this condition is horrible.
Thankyou loving Christian for your understanding and empathy. Its comments like yours that turn people away from religion keep up the good work👏 The one bright side of my illness is it helped me to be honest with myself about what I really believe I started using my rational brain once again. I have done my due diligence in researching the claims of Christianity now and the evidence is not good, far from it. Thanks again for showing the goodness mercy and power of your god to heal. I don't want to keep you from all your miraculous work you have planned for today.. bye
most people just can't let go
God doesn't like suffering? Okay, why is there so much of it around then? I can't watch any more of this.
@@bobmetcalfe9640 God doesnt do what he likes similarly to all who sacrifice but what must be done.
Nonsense. Typical Christian excuses.
If there was unity there would be no suffering but then nothing would be manifest either; as in order to have a physical or material world it has to have matter and be visible. Where there is duality there is opposition hence good and bad. Without duality we could have unity but likely not at a physical level. It would mean inertness without motion; without past; present; or future. Before the fall there was unity but the physical or elemental came into existence and a drama gets played out here. Choose good and suffer less; keep banging your head against a stone wall and you will suffer more.
There is also the idea in the East of karma; personal karma; and mass karma. So it is a drama; but it is said it is also a dream in the mind of God and nothing is real except God or consciousness, and like a nightly dream we can have a nightmare but wake up unharmed as it all took place in the mind; so it is said about life as well.
A medical professional has no specific advantage in answering this question.
Genesis chapters 1 through 11 give us God's position.
Contrary to popular Christian teaching the final judgment is not separation from God but the full presence of his wrath against sin.
Suffering comes from God.
Revelation 14:10-11
@@yourfriendlyneighborhoodin1559 In the sense that we are not in unity but in duality of both good and bad options and outcomes; it comes from God since the fall. Not all of it comes from God as some through wrong actions bring suffering on themselves.
As there is free will, even though they are in the grip of strong habits; still they have the option of freeing themselves and changing and making their life better.
There is what they call in the East mass karma; so apart from our individual wrongs we have to endure the ill effects of the wrong doing of the race as well.
@@ALavin-en1kr no comment.
@@ALavin-en1kr it's immediately amazing how correct Doctrine is challenged by The Armenian vs Calvinism debate.
It's almost like it's super duper important... or something.
@@yourfriendlyneighborhoodin1559 I am not too familiar with these; maybe knowing a little more about the Calvinism doctrine which is depressing. It has been said Christ was crucified once and his teaching has been crucified numerous times.
The Catholic Church sought to prevent this by having a successor to Peter and a Council to determine articles of faith that could be shared with the faithful. Transubstantiation was a tough one, but they symbolized it in the Mass. There was Luther and his nun; breaking the rules is one thing and just leaving. Leaving and trying to change the Church to correspond to one’s choice is another thing. A lay ministry would be good and that has evolved now with Epistle readers and helpers in non-ceremonial roles.
I seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Satan .
In the name of Allah (God almighty ) ,
the most gracious, the most merciful .
* Say , He is Allah , the One , the Eternal ,
He does not beget , nor was he begotten , and
there is no one ( Like or ) comparable to Him *
(Quran)
Ah, so god is not all-powerful. Good to know, thanks for confirming that.
Always fearful when a "scientist" believes in magic woo woo like a man walking on water, turning water to wine, or floating up up into the clouds to the heaven lands in the sky
so then that involves isaac newton then
Allah the Almighty said:
* And know that the life of this world is but amusement and diversion and
adornment and boasting to one another and competition in increase of wealth
and children - like the example of spring after the rain, its vegetation pleases the
Farmers; then it withers and you see it turning yellow; then it becomes dry chaff.
And in the Hereafter is a severe punishment.
And forgiveness from Allah and approval. And the life of this world is not but
the enjoyment of delusion.*
(Quran)
God creates everything. Within everything exists suffering. Therefor god created suffering. Suffering is bad therefor god is not good. A god that is not good should not be praised.
Creates the potential for suffering, rather than creating suffering.
@@christopherflux6254 creating the potential for suffering is still immoral. Why would a god do that?
And yet creating potential for suffering is just semantics in a way as it still means god created suffering as potential still guarantees suffering as it is impossible for any known being to avoid it.
@christopherflux6254 if I make a planet and it is up to me to choose whether or not there will be the possibility of child diddlers and I choose for there to be the possibility of that. What would you think of me?
@@jr8260 You didnt think that through at all. Without free will good nor evil means nothing. The story of the fall tells us that God gave us humans the choice between the garden or free will and our ancestors chose free will. Its like if you have children are you going to tyrannically helicopter them 100% of the day so they cant make mistakes because its all your decisions or are you going to give them the option to actually have their own free will with all the good and bad that it entails? Not being a controlling dictator comes with with the downsides of your children being freee to do stuff you dont agree with. Stop being a lying satanist inverting clear cut unambiguous narratives
@@michaelshannon9169 Not being a controlling dictator comes with with the downsides of your children being free to do stuff you dont agree with if they chose free will for themselves. How is that difficult to understand? How does that put any blame on God? Sure he could have prevented us from taking free will without asking him first but that would have made him a control freak not respecting our wish to have the power of EVERY choice. Free will was never forcefully withheld in the garden but taken without care for the warnings. And in our arrogance we became responsible for the fallen state of everything. The biblical explanation of the existence of a fallen world is absolutely coherent and very profound even if you dont believe the christian faith is true.