The idea that, in a free market of information, truth is likely to lose, is a profound insight. Many people fail to recognize that truth is often complex, unsettling, or even disheartening, whereas lies can be simple, comforting, and aligned with people’s desires or biases. This dynamic makes falsehoods inherently more appealing, giving them a competitive edge in public discourse. It’s a crucial point to emphasize in debates, as acknowledging it helps us understand why misinformation spreads so easily, and why seeking truth requires more effort and vigilance than simply accepting what is easy to believe.
Sam, if you read this, please continue this great work. I feel the world needs it more than ever right now. Intelligent, reasonable discourse. It's greatly appreciated and it is valued.
@@keepcalmjustanopinion where was the "conversation". It was more like an interview. Noah is never interested in others ideas, never asks a question, just speaks from his books , never discussed anything
Seriously, Mr. Harari, what gives you the confidence to keep touring the world and doing all that interviews? I have read your recent books, and while noone expects a flawless prediction of the future, youre predictions were way beyond average and most of your books havent aged well at all. You were frankly more wrong about most major developments than a bunch of school kids that would be asked the same questions. "Unthinkable to see another territorial war in Europe".... "We live in the most peaceful era ever".... and so on and so on. I don't get why you dont correct your predictions, admit you were way off, and maybe tune back on giving interviews a bit? After being wrong on everything now you jump on the AI bandwagon with more pretty lofty predictions....I just don't see why people are still so interested in your statements, that's all.
My guess is that the main reason Sam hasn't had video is because his guests aren't always able to be with him in person. He obviously thinks having his guests recorded on webcams wouldn't make a good product.
yeah idk. I don't think it's that simple. First of all absolute freedom is impossible for either and freedom is an illusion in some sense anyway. Then there's the simple fact that one can easily think up corner cases where a robot might want or even need to have more freedom than a human in a particular situation where many lives are actually at stake. And then I think ultimately we aren't going to live an a i-robot like world where its humans vs. robots. We will become more robotic than today's robots and visa versa.
@@50-50_Grindbots dont have intentions, and it may be exceedingly difficult to figure out who is behind a given bot and what their intentions may or may not be, and in some cases, it may be difficult to distinguish what is or isnt a bot account without forensic investigation. Its a big problem.
Una lástima que el valioso contenido de Sam no esté subtitulado al español. Y además no tenga la traducción al español en Spotify como es el caso del canal de Lex Fridman.
"Companies should be liable for algorithms". This, right here please. And algorithms transparency in general. Also, free speech is for ppl not bots and corporations. More of this please.
At this point many companies can not explain their content recommendation architecture - it's less algorithm more ML/AI solving optimization and ranking problems.
I am glad to see someone finally pushing back a bit and challenging Sam's uncharacteristically Manichean view of the Israel-Palestine conflict and especially the state of Israeli politics, which has certainly done nothing to decrease Israel's vulnerability or Palestinians' rage. I would have liked a little more time dedicated to that conversation, since Sam's coverage of the topic has been so one-sided. I hope that YNH's authority is enough to nudge SH towards a more balanced view. I appreciate you both and have learned much from you over the years. Thank you.
Yeah, and I think it did. After reading Yuval's book and this conversation, it definitely changed my beliefs. It's not that Sam is wrong about Hezbollah and the dangers they it poses - I mean Yuval agreed with him. I think Sam (including myself) misses the full picture. Basically, Yuval explains that the religious fanatics are a threat to the secular norms of Isreal. They are not just some fringe group. These are people that make important decisions in Isreal's government. And there have been humanitarian disasters because of this. I know I'm simplifying this, but ultimately, yes, this is a problem. And Yuval's position is that a cease fire is just none sense. We must move forward with peace. He explains that in order to do this, we must make sure that the non-jews feel the material advantages of that. Sam rebuttals, "what if peace doesn't work". Which Yuval says, "doesn't mean you give up on it." Anyway, I'm sorry I'm ranting. lol
Hell yeah!! SOOOO much better than just voice... I'm sure it's a lot more work with the cameras and editing and lights and whatnot but we really appreciate it :)
Whoah i wasn't expecting to see you here! Makes sense that you'd be a fan though. Your rational level headed delivery and the way you parse information are in a way similar to harris, just entirely different fields.
@@SaviorMoney-777the thing is at some point someone is going to have to say the truth. There is an OCD-like pseudo-intellectual movement going on. It’s the collective unconscious driving us forward into god knows what. We are a hive mind. These people will never see it because that would actually mean putting oneself on the line to defend the truth of all matters. These people are just cowards. Better to focus on truth and forget the rest. You won’t find free thinkers in any forum other than literary discussion forums. The good ones read literature. They are the only ones that might listen and have free thinking capacity. Everyone else has already been bought and sold.
People think we just trust institutions. We don't! That's why we have corrective measures in institutions. And checks and balances exist everywhere in our government (even in companies).
This is such a fallacy. We were more free under a monarchy system where kings had little power to control their entire population, now we have thousands of “democratic” institutions that all seem to believe the same thing whereas Americans are divided on just about everything. Coincidence?
@@ironwingz If we trusted institutions, they wouldn't have checks and balances. So the fact that there are checks, means we don't trust them. After all they consist of humans and humans make mistakes and can be corrupt.
Hasn't Sam been at the center of tearing down our religious institutions? And now he's trying to convince us it's immoral to distrust our institutions? Hmmmmm...
"the truth is very costly. \fiction is very cheap...." What a great conversation between these 2 lighthouses of free thought, intellectual integrity & wisdom. An enormous thank you to BOTH of you 🙏
i used to like both of these guys. Now, before I reach the end of the video i started to love them. Yuval insights on on how cheap pieces of information can derive a complety wrong picture about the past is inspiring. I wish there would be more talks with enlightened people like them in the internet
I come back to this channel to get peace of mind, listening to rational, thought-out arguments based on facts. One of the few remaining spaces in this crazy topsy turvy world.
I've been listening to Making Sense since the beginning, and watching it in video format has been a dream come true. Hopefully more to come! Brilliant episode.
I watched the full version of this (+- 2hrs). I have to say this was amazing. Thank you. But I also have to say that Mr. Harris seems to be hellbent on confirming his view of the world. Almost unrelentingly so, but not always (of course not). Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, except it limits the discussion as Mr. Horari and we, the audience, keep having to circle back to Sam's desire to have a view of his affirmed. And these are topics many people know Sam Harris has taken a position on a LONG TIME AGO. Instead of moving the conversation deeper and further and focusing on the book, on Horari's points and taking a curious approach- its a kind of "now its my turn to spin your point to fit into my world view- and can you please affirm it?". Horari holds his ground and sticks to the point- an excellent interlocutor whose incisiveness transformed the discussion in the end. But all's well that ends well!
100% agree, while at the same time I at least appreciate Sam for letting Yuval say the last word on most of those things and not continuing to counter and push his views. As an Israeli expat myself it was surreal to have Sam keep trying to hold Israel up as "the good guys" as Yuval kept throwing one piece of info after another about how insane the country has become and how simplistic it is to have a view that any side in this conflict is either good or bad. At one point Sam was plain refusing to accept that 10% of Israeli Jews are religious fanatics, a figure Yuval didn't just pull out of his ass but essentially taken from the proportion of parties with such views in the Knesset. Which made it even more interesting when they (again seemingly much more driven by Yuval) eventually finally got to talking about meditation and being able to observe reality as a whole and where your thoughts and beliefs get in the way. In general I do see the effects of meditation on Sam in that he tends to examine things from a pretty open and objective point of view when he first examines them, but the issue is as you say, when he does form an opinion, that opinion tends to stick very hard and it's next to impossible to change his mind on that particular issue. I'd like to think that him letting Yuval have the last word on that means he allowed himself finally to be swayed a bit, if only for the fact that these arguments were for once coming to him from someone who actually lives there and knows so much more about the situation. But that's probably a tad optimistic of me.
"TRUTH vs. ORDER"? Was initially a bit sorry to read the OP, but luv the brilliance of this thread. Plainly, having a ruler facing jail when he leaves office and facing leaving office when not at war makes for insane and cruel incentives. Yet given existential threats, it seems prudent to avoid vulnerable surgery with bad actors present ... so Sam's resistance to nuance may be understandable, if flawed when seeking truth more than order.
@@maxibluft But Israel are the good guys, aren't they. Image the state of Israel if Yuval had it all his way. I think Israel is doing what it has to do, and that's very messy but image the boot on the other foot. I'm totally with Sam on this.
@@GraemeWillo Israel are NOT the good guys, and there are no good guys in this conflict. Just because Israel is not quite as bad as Hamas or Hezbollah doesn't make them/us good guys, you can't kill tens of thousands of women and children and be the good guys, and the way it has conducted this war basically ensures there will be another one, and it will probably be worse.
Hello Sam, Im not sure if you read your comments. I watched the interview with great interest, all so fascinating and urgent topics. I was so disappointed to then realize that to see the whole interview id need to subscribe, and a subscription that is a notable sum. I am all for you be rewarded for your dedication and hard work. The topics you touch are important, specially in a time of such confusion, and as Harari expresses, too much bad information are saturating the channels. I have purchased two of your books over the years, dont you think that the interviews should be public and free.?. TH-cam has become one of the few places where one can find good information, and so many people share and are satisfied with the financial returns they get through youtube viewing and the promotion that they then get they can monetize in their books and conferences. There are so many examples of people who share great information to the public for free in search of a greater good.. I wish you see that and open up your valuable pod casts to the wide audience.. we need good information! i am sure that your channel will more than pay for itself, and you will reach a wider audience eager to buy your books.
I had this conversation recently with a coworker who was sharing some made up story with me about Kamala being at Diddy parties. It’s very, very easy to make things up. The only thing keeping the train on the rails is that some of us are still attempting to be factually correct.
@@jessecraft1199it's easier to invent much of the narrative if you are what run much of the discourse and what people are exposed to. Mainstream media and social media should not be believed until proven otherwise (and they haven't proven themselves yet)
I can't believe Sam has less than 1m subscribers there are bullshit accounts that react to videos and offer nothing with more, and here is one of the great minds of our generation
lol yes, the anti free speech guy who wants government control so that nobody can question them locking down the world for 2 years over a cough, is an intellectual giant
Mr NOAH YOU ARE CORRECT EVERYONE of us should learn to develop humility Compassion gratitude Forgiveness with Healthy Relationships and Healthy Boundaries with Respect Responsibility Resilience Relience HONESTY with Integrity Discipline and Order Discernment Unconditional emotional support with patience FOCUSED HONOURED COMMITTED attitude to oneself primarily and one another in parenting Caring Sharing with one's own life Obeying the Command ,"LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF" "DISCERN"
Institutions serve as the scaffolding or framework of society. The government's role is to maintain these structures, not to control them. When transparency and trust in the government and institutions are eroded, people often resort to dismantling these systems in an effort to rebuild them. Institutions, like any other entity, should thrive in a marketplace of ideas, where concepts and knowledge compete freely. No government should unilaterally decide what is right or wrong. Courts and laws exist to protect shared values and ensure fairness. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of both the government and institutions to earn and maintain the public’s trust, no matter how challenging that may be.
"Those who leave the tradition of truth do not escape into something which we call Freedom. They only escape into something else, which we call Fashion.” - G.K Chesterton Unfortunately Yuval is wrong, Human nature is flawed. Things and people degenerate or die. "If you seek the truth of the matter" you are completely 'Free'.
Exactly. Sam is hellbent on justifying unjustifiable institutions for the fact of them simply being existing institutions. Authoritarian, dictatorial regimes take the same self justifying stance on governance
The best defense against information overload is a good BS detector and thoughtful conversation. Easy access to high quality CG production elements such as select fonts, layout templates and spelling/phrasing correction can make even the most crackpot fictions look good. Don’t let your eyes fool you.
This such a nuansced conversation on such an accurate assessment - firstly, thanks so much for having it! I genuinely appreciate it! I feel a little bit more connected to some people tonight and that hasn't been true most of the last five years....most people have changed without recognition of their own fallible lack of recognition of this fact so genuinely please continue in the pursuit of honest transparency!
The more levels of guards, the better. You can also have a circular level of power, such that nobody holds the overall power. Most of these options are better than having no guards
@@MrDanthemaniam Do you want some utter gold on this? (Unless you're a Sam Harris sycophant) Your, *"Simple answer:"* *"You do. That's how democracy works."* would be seen as anathema by Sam Harris. He, arrogant elitist that he is, supposes that information needs to be kept from the public because they can't be trusted. Here is a quote from him about 5 months ago, " But the thing is I know you can't trust the people to make that decision rationally." And he thinks he is worthy of being listened to on the topic of democracy? How pathetic. And the killer part is that his fans here can hear him say this repeatedly and never pick up on his cognitive dissonance.
It's true that it's not as clear cut as presented, but that case regarded a public figure and set the standard for liability as malicious statements. But even that level of liability would improve the social media landscape.
@@Swissy8 I love Sam - probably more than any other intellectual, but he consistently gets things wrong concerning the law. As a lawyer, I am always shaking my head.
We people need to be very loud and clear about truth as supreme priority. A truthful debate free of misinformation and bots and corporate propaganda and political manipulation would be so important to understand our beliefs.
There's a time for war and there is a time for peace. Worshiping de-escalation in a time of war is an escalation all in itself. Yuval is proof one can be smart yet still unwise. He needs to sit this one out. Great video quality by the way.
Yuval is an amazing author. Have read almost all his books. Someone who really tries and see the bigger picture and does not lose sight of the threes looking at the wood.
As we enter a new era of information systems, we are also introducing new methods of authoritarianism. Authoritarian behavior is now often decentralized and camouflaged as a different ideological product. That is what scares me.
@@666MaRius9991 So the public shouldn't be able to justifiably criticise institutions.... like in every authoritarian system that's existed....because that's authoritarianism? You people tie yourselves in the most illogical knots
@@mandrakemalachite1061 I should have specified further :if the institution is corrupt beyond repair then all bets are off. I'm pretty sure you know that i'm referring to bad faith actors,not legitimate criticisms.
lol yes, the anti free speech guy who wants government control so that nobody can question them locking down the world for 2 years over a cough, is an intellectual giant
This interview is important enough that it should be available in it's entirety on TH-cam ! I appreciate that Sam offers the Making Sense content subscription free to those that request it due to financial hardship but for simplicity and ease of access, free this one up !
Thank you Yuval for your remarks about meditation and the human mind. So wise: "How can you understand the Arab-Israli conflict if you can't even observe the breathe flowing in and out of your nostrils for more than a few seconds without the mind hijacked by (insert distraction here.)"
Two of my favorite thinkers of our time. I find both of these gentlemen to be sublime examples of who we should aspire to be. I would gladly have either as a Father, Brother, Son or Friend. I imagine a world where all people think rationally and elucidate the same and these two fellas would be in it....I prefer this imaginary world over the actual one we live in.
lol yes, the anti free speech guy who wants government control so that nobody can question them locking down the world for 2 years over a cough, is an intellectual giant
Suggestions for all social media: 1. Have a special shiny badge for primary sources 2. Have an optional "order of comments" powered by an AI that puts the most accurate/truthful, respectful, thoughtful, substantive tweets at the top, and the negative ones with ad hominem personal attacks at the bottom It shouldn't be that whoever pays for a subscription gets to have their tweets more viewed. It should be whoever's tweets are more substantive, truthful, and absent of personal attacks and logical fallacies. This is why I don't think we should have artificial consciousness (AC, not Al) . If we don't have artificial consciousness, we don't need to give them rights.
I love the free speech must only be allowed for humans - well he nailed that precisely! Same for and ability to post anonymously. If you want to exercise your ability to speak you must be able to be held accountable for your choice of words and expression.
I disagree. Anonymity has historically been a powerful tool against oppression. Many of the great Enlightenment thinkers wrote under pseudonyms to protect their identities.
He’s wrong from the beginning: There’s human nature and it has a big role on the problems we’re facing. Just information it’s not enough to make people better, addicts know perfectly well what’s wrong with them.
Your analogy sort of stinks. While the addict knows the problem the problem itself is the addiction. When one is addicted a symptom is the inability to control it. I think I can safely assume you've never really been addicted to anything or, if you were, you really do not understand what was happening to you while you were addicted. Our nature is to want to know. If we settle for cheap information then we really don't know anything. But.. it was easy to become ignorant and not realize how ignorant we are. Actual knowledge is harder.. it takes some time to do research, to test ideas, to have to realize we're wrong so we must try again.. that is how real knowledge happens. He's not wrong from the beginning. You appear to be wrong from your post.
@@BrianHoff04 Forget addiction. How about just being a better person? Nearly everyone knows what sorts of things they should do, or could do, to be a better version of themselves. Spend more time with my kids, be kinder to my family and friends, tell the truth, maybe just be more friendly and considerate with the next stranger you encounter etc etc etc. Simply knowing these things doesn't make one a better person, though, as anyone who has ever studied philosophy will tell you.
@@BrianHoff04 Addiction, psychopathy, etc. Information isn't enough. Wisdom isn't obteinable by mere rationalist methods. Scientism will lead humanity to its doom. You're too prideful, like Harris and Harari, to asume that fact.
21:17 What a great statement: "the people who are experts in truth usually get orders from the people who are experts in order", i.e. the politicians and/or dictators. That expresses perfectly my objection to people always blaming the scientists for decisions that are made about how the scientists' discoveries are used.
I am willing to listen to opinions and people I disagree on so many things. Here I am, moving my own boundaries :). Insightful discussion guys. Thanks for sharing.
Yes, and the correct response should be maximal truth-seeking and trust restoring, not the endless justification of non-truth. Sam is wrong about most things these days, Yuval is fantastic but convoluted on issue of truth and institutions
Black background is perfect. Lets you focus on the conversation, full stop. I would even suggest surrounding the table with thick black cloth curtains to give it an even more intimate feel. My only criticism of the set up is how busy the desk is with technology. Charlie Rose (his stupid behavior with women aside) had the ideal layout for conversations: Two chairs, round wooden table, black studio, two glasses of water, the occasional book. You really do not need more than that. You do not need a fancy studio and fancy neon lights and potted plants.
I know it sounds like an ad for the subscription, but the second part of the debate might rock your understanding of current israelis power layers and goals, at least based on what Harari says. It certainly got me thinking.
We have one particularly successful mechanism for separating truth from fiction: science. Consider applying the scientific method (and similar institutions) to broader society.
Whenever I hear Yuval Noah Harai on a podcast, I want to be next to someone else so I can lean over and ask "Is this profound to you? Am I missing something?" This is a 45 minute conversation that effectively distills down to "Information is only useful if it's true and lately we have a lot of untruthful information which causes problems. We should select more truthful information." Ok?
The problem is that far too many people are not as smart as you are. I mean that as a compliment. Too many are clueless. They need a serious foundation of basic, fundamental concepts.
Yeah, I somewhat agree. "To function, societies need to produce two things: truth and order." So basically you're describing collective problem solving, figuring out what's wrong and then taking action. I wouldn't even say 'order' is a good delineator here, maybe collective cooperation or action. And his solution to social media is... to ban bots and hold tech companies liable for their algorithms. So who decides what truth is? How do we improve algorithms to filter for truth instead of attention-capture? Banning bots that spam attention to certain posts is a small step in the right direction, and if proof-of-person were easy then of course we'd have more of it by now. But I do like YNH for his attempts to think up big picture conceptual frameworks, even if they don't always fit, and that he's not tribally captured.
Last day I was reading your book '21 lessons for 21 century'. Suddenly, a darkness of fear and hopeless penetrated to inside of my mind and that darkness diffused there. Subsequently, the epileptic seizure triggered in me and I fell down.
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The idea that, in a free market of information, truth is likely to lose, is a profound insight. Many people fail to recognize that truth is often complex, unsettling, or even disheartening, whereas lies can be simple, comforting, and aligned with people’s desires or biases. This dynamic makes falsehoods inherently more appealing, giving them a competitive edge in public discourse. It’s a crucial point to emphasize in debates, as acknowledging it helps us understand why misinformation spreads so easily, and why seeking truth requires more effort and vigilance than simply accepting what is easy to believe.
😊
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Well said
Very well said!
Truth makes a cameo appearance, from time to time, but it is never wholeheartedly embraced.
Sam, if you read this, please continue this great work. I feel the world needs it more than ever right now. Intelligent, reasonable discourse. It's greatly appreciated and it is valued.
Sam needs to have the amazing Christopher Bollyn on!
They both keep speaking over the other one for the full podcast.
Finally a proper podcast of making sense!
Yeah, it makes sense to have video too.
@@xeroeddie yup, adding video is making sense.
it makes sense to have this change.
@@virtualsnake1994 Jep! I knew he had the free will to do it and to be totally honest, it would've definitely been the end of my faith if he didn't.
@@xeroeddieBefore video I wasn't even convinced the guests were in the same room as him
Conversations like this are what the world needs right now. Thank you both❤
You mean “circlejerks” like this?
@@Lordbyrongillespie don’t be a dick
Sadly their Trump Derangement Syndrome has destroyed their credibility
@@keepcalmjustanopinion where was the "conversation". It was more like an interview. Noah is never interested in others ideas, never asks a question, just speaks from his books , never discussed anything
Seriously, Mr. Harari, what gives you the confidence to keep touring the world and doing all that interviews? I have read your recent books, and while noone expects a flawless prediction of the future, youre predictions were way beyond average and most of your books havent aged well at all. You were frankly more wrong about most major developments than a bunch of school kids that would be asked the same questions. "Unthinkable to see another territorial war in Europe".... "We live in the most peaceful era ever".... and so on and so on. I don't get why you dont correct your predictions, admit you were way off, and maybe tune back on giving interviews a bit? After being wrong on everything now you jump on the AI bandwagon with more pretty lofty predictions....I just don't see why people are still so interested in your statements, that's all.
This is amazing! Big smile on my face knowing Sam has a proper studio now!
What are you doing here wasting XP?
Beast
Right, it’s about time.
Nice to see him back in the world. I disagree with him so often. That's not a bad thing!!!
My guess is that the main reason Sam hasn't had video is because his guests aren't always able to be with him in person. He obviously thinks having his guests recorded on webcams wouldn't make a good product.
Damn, talk about rock solid conversation! Pure logic and reasoning on full display. Just a joy listening. Sam and Yuval, you rock!
"Freedom of speech should be for humans, not for bots" YES
yeah idk. I don't think it's that simple. First of all absolute freedom is impossible for either and freedom is an illusion in some sense anyway. Then there's the simple fact that one can easily think up corner cases where a robot might want or even need to have more freedom than a human in a particular situation where many lives are actually at stake. And then I think ultimately we aren't going to live an a i-robot like world where its humans vs. robots. We will become more robotic than today's robots and visa versa.
I prefer bots with good intentions over people with bad intentions. Am I weird?
@@50-50_Grindbots dont have intentions, and it may be exceedingly difficult to figure out who is behind a given bot and what their intentions may or may not be, and in some cases, it may be difficult to distinguish what is or isnt a bot account without forensic investigation. Its a big problem.
Bots are owned by humans and carrying their agenda
@@50-50_Grind Who decides which is which? 😉 We know Sam likes to.
Well, this just became my first ever paid subscription in TH-cam.
I cannot express how much I needed or enjoyed this conversation.
❤
“If you flood the world with information, the truth will sink to the bottom”
Likewise.
Una lástima que el valioso contenido de Sam no esté subtitulado al español. Y además no tenga la traducción al español en Spotify como es el caso del canal de Lex Fridman.
Two treasured geniuses of our time. Such thoughtful expressions of reality amidst the current cesspool of foolish ignorance. Thank you.
As a person of faith I enjoy listening to these two and feel enlightened afterwards sensing that I understand my reality a bit better...
The new studio looks great Sam! Good job!
It's literally a black void...
@@KorakBrosepf just like our true nature
@@KorakBrosepf just like our true nature
@@KorakBrosepf just like our true nature
@@KorakBrosepf just like our true nature
"Companies should be liable for algorithms". This, right here please. And algorithms transparency in general.
Also, free speech is for ppl not bots and corporations. More of this please.
Companies liable for algorithms? Don't hold your breath, the algorithms are based in pure Capitalism.
They cannot control them and they admit it. I blame the complete idiocy of the US citizens who are clueless about the world.
At this point many companies can not explain their content recommendation architecture - it's less algorithm more ML/AI solving optimization and ranking problems.
I am glad to see someone finally pushing back a bit and challenging Sam's uncharacteristically Manichean view of the Israel-Palestine conflict and especially the state of Israeli politics, which has certainly done nothing to decrease Israel's vulnerability or Palestinians' rage. I would have liked a little more time dedicated to that conversation, since Sam's coverage of the topic has been so one-sided. I hope that YNH's authority is enough to nudge SH towards a more balanced view. I appreciate you both and have learned much from you over the years. Thank you.
Yeah, and I think it did. After reading Yuval's book and this conversation, it definitely changed my beliefs. It's not that Sam is wrong about Hezbollah and the dangers they it poses - I mean Yuval agreed with him. I think Sam (including myself) misses the full picture. Basically, Yuval explains that the religious fanatics are a threat to the secular norms of Isreal. They are not just some fringe group. These are people that make important decisions in Isreal's government. And there have been humanitarian disasters because of this. I know I'm simplifying this, but ultimately, yes, this is a problem. And Yuval's position is that a cease fire is just none sense. We must move forward with peace. He explains that in order to do this, we must make sure that the non-jews feel the material advantages of that. Sam rebuttals, "what if peace doesn't work". Which Yuval says, "doesn't mean you give up on it."
Anyway, I'm sorry I'm ranting. lol
I'm thankful you let your guests finish their thoughts
Hell yeah!! SOOOO much better than just voice... I'm sure it's a lot more work with the cameras and editing and lights and whatnot but we really appreciate it :)
Whoah i wasn't expecting to see you here! Makes sense that you'd be a fan though. Your rational level headed delivery and the way you parse information are in a way similar to harris, just entirely different fields.
@@Brownkid422been listening to Sam for many, many years :)
Hey, I know you!
YES!!! Congrats on the studio. Now all we need is a Making Sense world tour Sam Harris!!
Is Harari an ALIEN?
AMAZING! Two of my favourite minds in dialogue.
You like authoritarian psychopaths?
@@SaviorMoney-777I don’t think you know what those words mean.
@@casualviewing1096 You don't think at all.
@@SaviorMoney-777the thing is at some point someone is going to have to say the truth. There is an OCD-like pseudo-intellectual movement going on. It’s the collective unconscious driving us forward into god knows what. We are a hive mind. These people will never see it because that would actually mean putting oneself on the line to defend the truth of all matters. These people are just cowards. Better to focus on truth and forget the rest. You won’t find free thinkers in any forum other than literary discussion forums. The good ones read literature. They are the only ones that might listen and have free thinking capacity. Everyone else has already been bought and sold.
@@SaviorMoney-777 What a good comeback. Harris and Harare are two of the more thoughtful voices out there. I'm glad to have them in one podcast
I've listened to the whole conversation. IMHO this conversation is too important to be behind a firewall.
Bro just post the full show please, the world needs this one.
People think we just trust institutions. We don't! That's why we have corrective measures in institutions. And checks and balances exist everywhere in our government (even in companies).
I hear a lot of people make this claim. In what way does your behavior, do your actions demonstrate that you do not completely trust institutions?
This is such a fallacy. We were more free under a monarchy system where kings had little power to control their entire population, now we have thousands of “democratic” institutions that all seem to believe the same thing whereas Americans are divided on just about everything. Coincidence?
@@ironwingz If we trusted institutions, they wouldn't have checks and balances.
So the fact that there are checks, means we don't trust them.
After all they consist of humans and humans make mistakes and can be corrupt.
As long as those are not corrupted. 🤞
Hasn't Sam been at the center of tearing down our religious institutions? And now he's trying to convince us it's immoral to distrust our institutions? Hmmmmm...
Hopefully we'll see more of these 😊
Truth is complicated and expensive in terms of human effort...giving fiction an enormous advantage over truth in terms of its propagation.
I really wish Sam would do video interviews rather than just audio. This is fantastic!
"the truth is very costly. \fiction is very cheap...." What a great conversation between these 2 lighthouses of free thought, intellectual integrity & wisdom. An enormous thank you to BOTH of you 🙏
Wow. What a fantastic conversation. Thank you both.
i used to like both of these guys. Now, before I reach the end of the video i started to love them. Yuval insights on on how cheap pieces of information can derive a complety wrong picture about the past is inspiring. I wish there would be more talks with enlightened people like them in the internet
I come back to this channel to get peace of mind, listening to rational, thought-out arguments based on facts. One of the few remaining spaces in this crazy topsy turvy world.
The way of the middle path is really a solution to consider on so many situations 🌀
Such a rational and clear headed conversation.
Chaos is a ladder. Anyone sowing distrust of established institutions that do posses correctional mechanisms is seeking power for themselves.
Exactly.
Well put.
... or they just don't like authoritarian psychopaths deciding what they must do.
How did you determine this to be True?
Or did you?
@@JohnnyTwoFingers experience and observation
I am loving that you are going to video Sam! Fan for over ten years, loving the progression 😀
AI fake video,, perfect for these two creeps!
I wish that people in positions of power would think like this guy! The world would be a much safer place. 👏🤓
ITS MY BIRTHDAY THIS IS A GREAT GIFT THANK YOU SAM AND YUVAL!!
Happy birthday mate!
@@lilayeleex HBD!!
Happy birthday mate
I like the nicely shared screen, we can see both Sam and Yuval at the same time
I'm so happy and thankful for this!
I've been listening to Making Sense since the beginning, and watching it in video format has been a dream come true. Hopefully more to come! Brilliant episode.
I watched the full version of this (+- 2hrs). I have to say this was amazing. Thank you. But I also have to say that Mr. Harris seems to be hellbent on confirming his view of the world. Almost unrelentingly so, but not always (of course not). Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, except it limits the discussion as Mr. Horari and we, the audience, keep having to circle back to Sam's desire to have a view of his affirmed. And these are topics many people know Sam Harris has taken a position on a LONG TIME AGO. Instead of moving the conversation deeper and further and focusing on the book, on Horari's points and taking a curious approach- its a kind of "now its my turn to spin your point to fit into my world view- and can you please affirm it?". Horari holds his ground and sticks to the point- an excellent interlocutor whose incisiveness transformed the discussion in the end. But all's well that ends well!
100% agree, while at the same time I at least appreciate Sam for letting Yuval say the last word on most of those things and not continuing to counter and push his views. As an Israeli expat myself it was surreal to have Sam keep trying to hold Israel up as "the good guys" as Yuval kept throwing one piece of info after another about how insane the country has become and how simplistic it is to have a view that any side in this conflict is either good or bad. At one point Sam was plain refusing to accept that 10% of Israeli Jews are religious fanatics, a figure Yuval didn't just pull out of his ass but essentially taken from the proportion of parties with such views in the Knesset.
Which made it even more interesting when they (again seemingly much more driven by Yuval) eventually finally got to talking about meditation and being able to observe reality as a whole and where your thoughts and beliefs get in the way. In general I do see the effects of meditation on Sam in that he tends to examine things from a pretty open and objective point of view when he first examines them, but the issue is as you say, when he does form an opinion, that opinion tends to stick very hard and it's next to impossible to change his mind on that particular issue.
I'd like to think that him letting Yuval have the last word on that means he allowed himself finally to be swayed a bit, if only for the fact that these arguments were for once coming to him from someone who actually lives there and knows so much more about the situation. But that's probably a tad optimistic of me.
Noticed that too.
"TRUTH vs. ORDER"? Was initially a bit sorry to read the OP, but luv the brilliance of this thread. Plainly, having a ruler facing jail when he leaves office and facing leaving office when not at war makes for insane and cruel incentives.
Yet given existential threats, it seems prudent to avoid vulnerable surgery with bad actors present ... so Sam's resistance to nuance may be understandable, if flawed when seeking truth more than order.
@@maxibluft But Israel are the good guys, aren't they. Image the state of Israel if Yuval had it all his way. I think Israel is doing what it has to do, and that's very messy but image the boot on the other foot. I'm totally with Sam on this.
@@GraemeWillo Israel are NOT the good guys, and there are no good guys in this conflict. Just because Israel is not quite as bad as Hamas or Hezbollah doesn't make them/us good guys, you can't kill tens of thousands of women and children and be the good guys, and the way it has conducted this war basically ensures there will be another one, and it will probably be worse.
Hello Sam, Im not sure if you read your comments. I watched the interview with great interest, all so fascinating and urgent topics. I was so disappointed to then realize that to see the whole interview id need to subscribe, and a subscription that is a notable sum. I am all for you be rewarded for your dedication and hard work. The topics you touch are important, specially in a time of such confusion, and as Harari expresses, too much bad information are saturating the channels. I have purchased two of your books over the years, dont you think that the interviews should be public and free.?. TH-cam has become one of the few places where one can find good information, and so many people share and are satisfied with the financial returns they get through youtube viewing and the promotion that they then get they can monetize in their books and conferences.
There are so many examples of people who share great information to the public for free in search of a greater good.. I wish you see that and open up your valuable pod casts to the wide audience.. we need good information! i am sure that your channel will more than pay for itself, and you will reach a wider audience eager to buy your books.
Truth is costly fiction is cheap
I had this conversation recently with a coworker who was sharing some made up story with me about Kamala being at Diddy parties.
It’s very, very easy to make things up. The only thing keeping the train on the rails is that some of us are still attempting to be factually correct.
@@jessecraft1199 The msm is built on that model, and Sam buys into a LOT of it.
@@jessecraft1199it's easier to invent much of the narrative if you are what run much of the discourse and what people are exposed to. Mainstream media and social media should not be believed until proven otherwise (and they haven't proven themselves yet)
Great discussion, great studio! Best podcast out there!!!
My dude did it!!!!
Your dude did what
@ it
I can't believe Sam has less than 1m subscribers there are bullshit accounts that react to videos and offer nothing with more, and here is one of the great minds of our generation
He lost quite a lot due to his TDS
He has TDS, but he's also a raging islamaphobe, so you gotta be a wokie who hates muslims to fit into this niche.
lol yes, the anti free speech guy who wants government control so that nobody can question them locking down the world for 2 years over a cough, is an intellectual giant
@@jmc5335 And complete trust of the left about Covid that led policy and censored the correct views.
gonna listen to this largely as an exercise in self-control
I thought I was the only one doing that.
?
Same here, and i think i'm failing.
It is Thomas Sowell’s “The Vision of the Anointed”…….. in video format.
@@jasonfu2094 nailed it.
Mr NOAH
YOU ARE CORRECT
EVERYONE of us should learn to develop humility Compassion gratitude Forgiveness with Healthy Relationships and Healthy Boundaries with Respect Responsibility Resilience Relience HONESTY with Integrity Discipline and Order Discernment Unconditional emotional support with patience FOCUSED HONOURED COMMITTED attitude to oneself primarily and one another in parenting Caring Sharing with one's own life Obeying the Command
,"LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF"
"DISCERN"
Institutions serve as the scaffolding or framework of society. The government's role is to maintain these structures, not to control them. When transparency and trust in the government and institutions are eroded, people often resort to dismantling these systems in an effort to rebuild them. Institutions, like any other entity, should thrive in a marketplace of ideas, where concepts and knowledge compete freely. No government should unilaterally decide what is right or wrong. Courts and laws exist to protect shared values and ensure fairness. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of both the government and institutions to earn and maintain the public’s trust, no matter how challenging that may be.
The solution is EARNING the trust, not Don't Lose the Trust.
Great conversations on the topic of disinformation.
"Those who leave the tradition of truth do not escape into something which we call Freedom. They only escape into something else, which we call Fashion.” - G.K Chesterton
Unfortunately Yuval is wrong, Human nature is flawed. Things and people degenerate or die. "If you seek the truth of the matter" you are completely 'Free'.
Exactly. Sam is hellbent on justifying unjustifiable institutions for the fact of them simply being existing institutions. Authoritarian, dictatorial regimes take the same self justifying stance on governance
Exactly
Two humans I so respect and was hoping to hear a conversation with!!!!
The best defense against information overload is a good BS detector and thoughtful conversation. Easy access to high quality CG production elements such as select fonts, layout templates and spelling/phrasing correction can make even the most crackpot fictions look good. Don’t let your eyes fool you.
So happy to see that Sam is finally filming his chats! Makes Sense to me.
This such a nuansced conversation on such an accurate assessment - firstly, thanks so much for having it! I genuinely appreciate it! I feel a little bit more connected to some people tonight and that hasn't been true most of the last five years....most people have changed without recognition of their own fallible lack of recognition of this fact so genuinely please continue in the pursuit of honest transparency!
Now there is a revolution in my mind. What a combo of wisdom.
Simple question: Who guards the guards?
@@roncarvalho The guards guards guards
Sam wants that positon for himself. He thinks he's the only one qualified.
The more levels of guards, the better. You can also have a circular level of power, such that nobody holds the overall power.
Most of these options are better than having no guards
Simple answer:
You do. That's how democracy works.
@@MrDanthemaniam
Do you want some utter gold on this? (Unless you're a Sam Harris sycophant)
Your,
*"Simple answer:"*
*"You do. That's how democracy works."*
would be seen as anathema by Sam Harris. He, arrogant elitist that he is, supposes that information needs to be kept from the public because they can't be trusted. Here is a quote from him about 5 months ago, " But the thing is I know you can't trust the people to make that decision rationally."
And he thinks he is worthy of being listened to on the topic of democracy? How pathetic.
And the killer part is that his fans here can hear him say this repeatedly and never pick up on his cognitive dissonance.
Mr Harris. I really enjoy how YOU have guided and steered Harari to share his deep and profound genius...
I love the video added instead of just audio, adds alot!
Information is necessary to critically evaluate and to come to your own conclusion
His statement about the New York Times and Free Speech is factually, legally incorrect. New York Times v. Sullivan dictates that.
Then I guess that is something you could self correct on
It's true that it's not as clear cut as presented, but that case regarded a public figure and set the standard for liability as malicious statements.
But even that level of liability would improve the social media landscape.
I was wondering about that!
@@Swissy8 I love Sam - probably more than any other intellectual, but he consistently gets things wrong concerning the law. As a lawyer, I am always shaking my head.
@@zsweetenlow Good job, pointing it out!
An intelligent and stimulating long form conversation.
Great conversation.
Thank you both 🙏🏼
We people need to be very loud and clear about truth as supreme priority. A truthful debate free of misinformation and bots and corporate propaganda and political manipulation would be so important to understand our beliefs.
Finally, a studio and video for Making Sense
There's a time for war and there is a time for peace. Worshiping de-escalation in a time of war is an escalation all in itself. Yuval is proof one can be smart yet still unwise. He needs to sit this one out. Great video quality by the way.
100% agree ❤
Plot twist: He only recorded the audio as usual. The video is AI generated.
Plot twist: they are both the same bot giving us the illusion of a discussion.
ridiculous, you're talking about technology months away :/
@@WeizenGourmet That's not far from the truth.
@@SaviorMoney-777 whats the truth you are referring to?
@@moritzmonska9912why divide from yourself in order to express?
I wish the world has more people like you . ❤
Glad i spotted this so early!!
Thank you Sam for doing what you are doing. 🙏
Yuval is an amazing author. Have read almost all his books. Someone who really tries and see the bigger picture and does not lose sight of the threes looking at the wood.
He's my current favorite
He’s a Klaus Schwab cuck and WEF creep of the highest order !
Human garbage!
I love how Yuval understands Sam's questions three words into him posing them and launches into answering them without letting him finish!
My two favorite people in the entire world!!!! ... so excited to watch this episode!
Mine too
More favorite than your parents
Two of the worst humans,,, there fixed it for you
@@Brado-s7h don’t be a dick
Truth is the goal. It’s worth sacrificing ‘order’ for it.
Without some degree of order you may find no place to stand, from which to leverage your reach for truth ?
As we enter a new era of information systems, we are also introducing new methods of authoritarianism. Authoritarian behavior is now often decentralized and camouflaged as a different ideological product. That is what scares me.
You can also spot authoritarians when you see them try to discredit institutions.
@@666MaRius9991 So the public shouldn't be able to justifiably criticise institutions.... like in every authoritarian system that's existed....because that's authoritarianism? You people tie yourselves in the most illogical knots
@@mandrakemalachite1061 I should have specified further :if the institution is corrupt beyond repair then all bets are off. I'm pretty sure you know that i'm referring to bad faith actors,not legitimate criticisms.
That make no sense, you reduced your premise to absurd within the same sentence…
lol yes, the anti free speech guy who wants government control so that nobody can question them locking down the world for 2 years over a cough, is an intellectual giant
Some people can’t handle how well both Yuval and Sam are doing right now
Keep spreading truth and freedom 🌍
This interview is important enough that it should be available in it's entirety on TH-cam ! I appreciate that Sam offers the Making Sense content subscription free to those that request it due to financial hardship but for simplicity and ease of access, free this one up !
Thank you Yuval for your remarks about meditation and the human mind. So wise: "How can you understand the Arab-Israli conflict if you can't even observe the breathe flowing in and out of your nostrils for more than a few seconds without the mind hijacked by (insert distraction here.)"
What pretentious nonsense.
Two of my favorite thinkers of our time. I find both of these gentlemen to be sublime examples of who we should aspire to be. I would gladly have either as a Father, Brother, Son or Friend. I imagine a world where all people think rationally and elucidate the same and these two fellas would be in it....I prefer this imaginary world over the actual one we live in.
lol yes, the anti free speech guy who wants government control so that nobody can question them locking down the world for 2 years over a cough, is an intellectual giant
Suggestions for all social media:
1. Have a special shiny badge for primary sources
2. Have an optional "order of comments" powered by an AI that puts the most accurate/truthful, respectful, thoughtful, substantive tweets at the top, and the negative ones with ad hominem personal attacks at the bottom
It shouldn't be that whoever pays for a subscription gets to have their tweets more viewed. It should be whoever's tweets are more substantive, truthful, and absent of personal attacks and logical fallacies.
This is why I don't think we should have artificial consciousness (AC, not Al) . If we don't have artificial
consciousness, we don't need to give them rights.
I love the free speech must only be allowed for humans - well he nailed that precisely! Same for and ability to post anonymously. If you want to exercise your ability to speak you must be able to be held accountable for your choice of words and expression.
I disagree. Anonymity has historically been a powerful tool against oppression. Many of the great Enlightenment thinkers wrote under pseudonyms to protect their identities.
Enjoyed every single second of it, thank you so much for this conversation ♥️
He’s wrong from the beginning: There’s human nature and it has a big role on the problems we’re facing.
Just information it’s not enough to make people better, addicts know perfectly well what’s wrong with them.
❤
Your analogy sort of stinks.
While the addict knows the problem the problem itself is the addiction. When one is addicted a symptom is the inability to control it. I think I can safely assume you've never really been addicted to anything or, if you were, you really do not understand what was happening to you while you were addicted.
Our nature is to want to know. If we settle for cheap information then we really don't know anything. But.. it was easy to become ignorant and not realize how ignorant we are.
Actual knowledge is harder.. it takes some time to do research, to test ideas, to have to realize we're wrong so we must try again.. that is how real knowledge happens. He's not wrong from the beginning. You appear to be wrong from your post.
He's talking the majority
@@BrianHoff04 Forget addiction. How about just being a better person? Nearly everyone knows what sorts of things they should do, or could do, to be a better version of themselves. Spend more time with my kids, be kinder to my family and friends, tell the truth, maybe just be more friendly and considerate with the next stranger you encounter etc etc etc. Simply knowing these things doesn't make one a better person, though, as anyone who has ever studied philosophy will tell you.
@@BrianHoff04 Addiction, psychopathy, etc. Information isn't enough. Wisdom isn't obteinable by mere rationalist methods. Scientism will lead humanity to its doom. You're too prideful, like Harris and Harari, to asume that fact.
2 very smart people…it’s refreshing to listen…
Interesting how Sam has changed his position on free speech. He used to say that he was basically a free speech absolutist.
Not for speech he doesn't like.
That’s how many are until they encounter a topic where they view all other characterizations but theirs to be offensive and/or dangerous.
being a free speech absolutist is complete troll mode.
He's an authoritarian liberal. Basically a neocon who supports gay marriage.
@@jacobreichert836 how
Please allow one time payments for individual episodes on your website
21:17 What a great statement: "the people who are experts in truth usually get orders from the people who are experts in order", i.e. the politicians and/or dictators. That expresses perfectly my objection to people always blaming the scientists for decisions that are made about how the scientists' discoveries are used.
Sometimes the scientists themselves are as corrupt. Being a scientist doesn't make one any less amenable to incentives.
I am willing to listen to opinions and people I disagree on so many things. Here I am, moving my own boundaries :). Insightful discussion guys. Thanks for sharing.
“The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists.”
So happy to see Sam in this format! 🙌🥳
I think the split screen shot works really well 👍
Yeah! digging the new studio! Congratz!
YES!!!!! A proper studio.... Have Destiny as a guest again please
Great conversation. Thank you both
The trust has been lost and we’re already in a state of collapse. Democracy died a long time ago. We live in an Oligarchy.
Plutocracy
Cleptacracy
Yes, and the correct response should be maximal truth-seeking and trust restoring, not the endless justification of non-truth. Sam is wrong about most things these days, Yuval is fantastic but convoluted on issue of truth and institutions
Bigflocracy
Two greats! Great conversation.
Black background is perfect. Lets you focus on the conversation, full stop.
I would even suggest surrounding the table with thick black cloth curtains to give it an even more intimate feel.
My only criticism of the set up is how busy the desk is with technology.
Charlie Rose (his stupid behavior with women aside) had the ideal layout for conversations: Two chairs, round wooden table, black studio, two glasses of water, the occasional book. You really do not need more than that. You do not need a fancy studio and fancy neon lights and potted plants.
Don’t diss the plants maaaaan 🌱
@@LuckeGabrielFor real. Haters may deny it but Between Two Ferns had the peak form of layout.
I know it sounds like an ad for the subscription, but the second part of the debate might rock your understanding of current israelis power layers and goals, at least based on what Harari says. It certainly got me thinking.
For those willing to apply for it, Sam claims (or used to) that they (almost?) unerringly grant free scholarship subscriptions.
Two amazing gentlemen
Love this new studio! Thanks for making the moments from the podcast become visually available in this space 🙌
We have one particularly successful mechanism for separating truth from fiction: science. Consider applying the scientific method (and similar institutions) to broader society.
Depends who's science it is!
@@JackSmith-x8s No such thing
Science can be captured as well, as the COVID response shows - remember who's giving the order to the people with the truth?
Accepting that all the true can be proven by the science is, by itself, a dogma, since the inicial statement cannot be scientifically proven.
@@Ancient88Wisdom "Captured" science isn't science.
Such a pertinent and powerful conversation!
Whenever I hear Yuval Noah Harai on a podcast, I want to be next to someone else so I can lean over and ask "Is this profound to you? Am I missing something?" This is a 45 minute conversation that effectively distills down to "Information is only useful if it's true and lately we have a lot of untruthful information which causes problems. We should select more truthful information." Ok?
You are NOT the only one..... He sounds like a stupids idea of a clever man.
Insights that you already have are not necessarily possessed by others, his role is giving people a framework to interpret world trends
The problem is that far too many people are not as smart as you are. I mean that as a compliment. Too many are clueless. They need a serious foundation of basic, fundamental concepts.
Yeah, I somewhat agree. "To function, societies need to produce two things: truth and order." So basically you're describing collective problem solving, figuring out what's wrong and then taking action. I wouldn't even say 'order' is a good delineator here, maybe collective cooperation or action.
And his solution to social media is... to ban bots and hold tech companies liable for their algorithms. So who decides what truth is? How do we improve algorithms to filter for truth instead of attention-capture? Banning bots that spam attention to certain posts is a small step in the right direction, and if proof-of-person were easy then of course we'd have more of it by now.
But I do like YNH for his attempts to think up big picture conceptual frameworks, even if they don't always fit, and that he's not tribally captured.
Couldn't agree more.
Finally! A video of them talking 🙌
There he is!
Last day I was reading your book '21 lessons for 21 century'. Suddenly, a darkness of fear and hopeless penetrated to inside of my mind and that darkness diffused there. Subsequently, the epileptic seizure triggered in me and I fell down.