I just think it's hilarious how even back in the 60s, Frank Herbert was already like "I'm so fucking sick of this trope" like the poor man had no idea what was about to come. Or maybe he did lol.
@@MrMuel1205 Yes and they also misinterpreted Campbell's work. This is a common problem among human beings. How many people are Christians or Muslims and don't full understand the contents or even read the Bible or the Koran? They see them as symbols, but don't understand them in depth.
For me the best part about how these adaptations have handled Paul becoming a Chosen One is how even Part 1 is making it clear that he shouldn't have been one in the first place. The reverend mother mentions that Paul was not supposed to have been born male, that the genetics program is now set back and needs correcting to actually produce the Kwisatz Haderach, and then the multiple references to how the Bene Gesserit have been preparing and prompting local beliefs to support their own agents as an emergency measure. If I remember rightly, there is also mention of other candidates (such as Fey-Rautha) in Part 1, further indicating that Paul is just taking the role of Chosen One, but is not meant to be in the role. To the Fremen, he's a promised messiah. To the Bene Gesserit, he's a mistake. To Leto, he's his son and nothing more, and only once this influence is out of his life does Paul begin acting like those that made him, being willing to manipulate towards a goal. Even if you don't realise it, the first part is planting those seeds of doubt in the viewer's mind. Then the second comes around and shows you exactly why you should have been fearful instead. I really hope Denis Villeneuve gets to adapt Dune Messiah, because even thought he definitely changes things he absolutely understands the point of the work - and that is how you make a good adaptation.
Well said, to add to this; I saw Villeneuve saying that Herbert wrote Messiah to hammer home this concept, as in the wake of the success of Dune, he was frustrated that the message still seemed lost on some people. Denis said he felt it was appropriate to bring this telegraphing of impending doom forward in the adaptation, to embellish what he saw (rightly I would say) as Herbert’s true intention and make sure that cinema goers all got the message
To be fair we must split the Kwisatz Haderach off from the Lisan Al-Gaib. The KH is a genetically crafted superbeing set for manipulation by the BG, although how they thought they might manipulate a being of such power, foresight and ability to glean the past, trained to use his power, is beyond me. Meanwhile the Lisan Al-Gaib is just a crappy false prophecy.
For me all this bene gesserit thing is silly and stupid. What are they doing? There are no sides? Psyhopatic Feyd Rauthe who killed his mother is the good prototype?. Oh, it is just disgusting. And the thing the the first bene gesserit director made the Taro cards schedule to decide how to act is just ridiculous. I don't think that she was taken the wirld to the happyness, she was at the wrong place for too long. The next sign that one person can not occupy the important position in the state during whole her live.
It has been a long time since I read it, but wasn't it that Paul was supposed to be female, marry Feyd-Rautha and the child of that union the real Kwisatz Haderach?
@@alienfromlhs1140b and even then the "chosen one" of that story is not even the main character of the story it was just a broken man that reject a tille and had to embrace not because of honor but because it was the only way to save middle earth.
Well. Paul knows he is more a naughty boy and hates the 'chosen one thing" so much so that he runs from the golden path in later books and hides out in the desert as a blind prophet and tries to talk his son Leto II out of following the golden path
What's great about the way Dune handles the trope is that his destiny is forced onto him. Most characters just accept but Paul doesn't want to, the movie also gives him a good reason to fear his destiny, once we see the consequences of it, we don't want it for him.
Good take, but I think most people miss the point by simply viewing stories about people as falling into just two categories: hero/antihero or hero/villain and so on. Dune is nothing if not a modern Greek tragedy. The oral tradition of the ancient Greeks (and of all people both ancient and modern, really) did, indeed, feature a lot of "hero" stories (complete with also-archetypal villains), but the Greeks also knew there was more than one way to be "chosen" by the gods. MANY of their myths involved curses of the gods - often on a whim, since the gods were quick to take offence at slights real or imagined, but sometimes as actual punishment for real moral offenses (as people saw them then). So tragedies often followed from unanticipated consequences of actions by protagonists the latter couldn't reasonably foresee, making them both perpetrators and victims in a decidedly greyer moral universe than they're perhaps used to telling in Hollywood. Frank Herbert knew this, of course. Even the "Atreides" name is a clue: in ancient Greek myth that name refers to the House of Atreus, a family suffering a series of tragedies under a multi-generational curse of the gods whose first "adaptations" (for the stage) were done by the playwrights of the Classical Greek age, plays that are still influential to this day... (Later edit: It recently struck me that the heavy burden of Paul's "gift" of prescience was effectively a variation on the myth of Cassandra - a character whose story is actually on the margins of the original Greek myths surrounding the gods' curse upon the "Atreides". She was famously bestowed the gift of being able to see the future, but with the curse, designed to drive her into madness, of being powerless to do anything about it because the gods also ensured no one would ever believe her warnings...)
5:02 You have no idea how many people I have seen miss this crucial point. Either by taking away all of Pauls agency or somehow try to retroactively justify Pauls Jihad through the actions in the later books. (despite none of the 6 books ever writing anything that indicates the Jihad as a necessary evil) Paul doesn't want the Jihad to happen, but he does willingly decide to go towards the path that leads to it. He hopes to find a loophole, but Frank makes it pretty clear that Paul probably should have walked away after escaping the Harkonnens.
It’s interesting because Paul’s prescience is never described as a certainty. In fact Hebert goes out of his way to let people know there are most definitely limits to his (and Alia’s) abilities. But I think if any of Paul’s visions could be considered near-certainties, it’s his vision of the jihad and the connection to the Fremen. He 100% knows he can’t utilize the fremen as a religious and military boon to his cause for revenge without the jihad.
@@stopculture Agreed, if he TRULY wanted to avoid the Jihad, he should have left the planet after Duncan and Kynes helped them escapce the Harkonnen, go to exile and live his life quietly there (which was btw. even opportuiny for Leto, who could have done this instead of going to Arakis, especialy since he was warned by multiple sources that if he goes there, he is basicaly dead man walking). But nope, the hate for Harkonnens (and to lesser extent the emperor) was bigger.
The author can't stop the great man of history even when he tries to claim that it is the wrong choice. Many authors try to make a point only to backfire in how people view their characters, the irony is that Paul is a great man, he is the maker of destiny, he is what people would call a hero and a leader. The alternative is worse, in his own words he even countradicts his own narrative. Gatta love it 😂
@@golagiswatchingyou2966 Nope. The golden path is revealed after the Jihad was already inevitable. Neither Leto nor Paul can see whether the jihad was needed to begin with. There's nothing stating the Jihad was necessary, and many hints that it is what made the golden path necessary to begin with.
@@SuperHipsterGamerYeah, considering the Golden Path was meant to ensure humanity's survival, which was only in jeopardy because of the mess made by the Jihad and Paul trying to make Arrakis a water paradise which killed the worms, which in turn destroyed the spice, it's more likely than not the Jihad was *why* the Golden Path was needed.
I felt very bad for Paul in Dune Messiah. He really did try to be a benevolent leader and do right by everyone. However, there was way too much out of his control. The trick was, Paul had convinced others and himself to put faith in him simply because he could see the future. It was a promise that he would provide humanity through safe passage. Well, it didn’t work out all too well because Paul couldn’t really control the future even though he could sort of see it. He could merely guide the present to a future that he deemed preferable. This works perfectly fine until there are no more good futures to choose from! That’s why at the end of Paul’s regime he makes so many bizarre and sometimes counter-productive decisions. All for the purpose of allowing some outcome to play out. Not even a good outcome, just the lesser of a thousand evils. One of my favorite lines, and I’m paraphrasing here: “I had seen my future, really seen it. Then I relaxed my grip for a moment and things folded back to old ways” Paul thought he had reinvented leadership, but the truth was at some point his leadership turned into governance. And those are two very different things.
Paul didnt "allow" those people to die for revenge. He only knew that it was a potential future and actively tried to avoid it but was unsure of the exact chain of events that were the trigger. This is a very common misconception of the character even though the first two books spend a lot of time delving into how freaked out Paul is by it all. By the time Paul became aware of this potential future not even suicide would have stopped it, which he knew because he considered it and saw the ramifications (it would have been even worse).
@@louisazraels7072 not exactly powerless but no he can't exactly control them, only guide them to a certain extent. You could say the Fremen worship his myth not his person, necessarily. I won't discuss more because it would be spoiler territory, I'd recommend the books.
He sees the possibility of the jihad more than anything else. He has options to get off Arrakis and back to Caladan, which would snuff out the potential for a jihad entirely, but he continues on the path, knowing what very well could happen. You’re right that it’s not written in stone, but if any of Paul’s visions could be called a near-certainty, it’s the ones he has of the jihad.
@@cromcccxvi3787 Well, when you're a member of an ancient aristocrat great house, who's also the product of an ancient eugenic breeding program to ensure "ruler suitable" traits continue in said houses, almost all of your plays will be power plays.
To be fair, Harry Potter has a twist on the chosen one too. In that Harry doesn't have any special power and is really just a chosen one because Voldemort chose to believe the prophecy. Not because of the prophecy itself. Though it's nowhere near the depth of the deconstruction of the role that Dune has.
@@sorkaem to add to this Harry too had a Choice. He coukd have stoped at any time Plus his Obsession with the DH showed if he had gained Power like Paul he would have likely corruptet aswell
Yeah. Paul wasn't chosen... he was engineered. Planted. Edit: thought - the Matrix eventually deconstructed this trope as well, right? The first film is all like 'this guy is the one', then the second film is like: yeah 'the one' is just another thing we dangle infront of people to get them to keep following while they think they're rebelling. Like Obama's 'hope' or Trump 'draining the swamp'. BUT THEN he really did become the savior, so... it deconstructs itself and constructs itself again. Hmm.
I suppose less audacious in the one since it's also engineered and it would be the sixth time the Oracle tried it. Also oracle said he wasn't the one. The one really was Agent Smith, the one that really forced the Machine's hand. With out Smith Neo would have nothing to solve for.
One comment i will make is Jon Snow (IN THE BOOKS) is a deconstruction of the chosen one and purposefully according to GRRM a realism of what Aragorn is. In fact the whole ASOIF series was a response to the classical fantasy of LOTR and the books make it clear prophecies are deceiving and arguably cause more evil than good. Otherwise a good video about Dune within itself
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 I thought Daenarys also has traits of Paul's. She goes to an area of the world that she is very unfamiliar with, frees repressed peoples and gets hailed as a hero too.
@@toasterroast7678i think both share that chosen one trait. And I agree Daenerys is more like Paul atreides rather than jon. She is bringing destructive force to westeros and might become tyrant without realising it(and might tries to change her path like Paul and dies?) Jon should be Leto ll , son of paul. He is the god emperor who actually followed golden path and fulfilled the so called prophecy instead of paul.
Paul is more or less a victim. He's a kid who gets indoctrinated into becoming a Messiah. No one could expect a 16 year old boy to not be rash and selfish in their pursuit of revenge on their father's murderer. He's not a bad guy, but he's not a good guy either, he's a good kid who gets indoctrinated into becoming a tyrant but even there he still feels bad about all the horrible shit he's done.
I think people need to take a look back at The Matrix, the sequels in particular (2 and 3 at least). Neo is a lot more like Paul Atreides than one might think. "The One" as a figure within the Matrix was revealed in Reloaded to to be another part of the Matrix's system of control. Neo becomes a true hero when he realizes this and flips the script to establish the peace treaty between Zion and the Machine City. If Neo could be described as anything, it would be "if Paul Atreides exposed the Bene Jesserit's manipulations, defied their master plan for him, and charted a different path for the human race."
Yes, it's like they never realized that these books are told through a biased lens of characters who are always seeking power, and seeking to justify their power, and take all those justifications for power at face value
During part 2 of villeneuve's dune at somepoint I started to think along lines of "François Truffaut said that 'There's no such thing as an anti-war film.' so I wonder if similarly 'there's no such thing as (well made) anti-hero worship/anti-cult of personality' movies way this is pulling me in"
@@emmanuelmondesir8677TL:DR Berserk = Leader bad, be your own leader instead. Truth, one of the many great achievements of Berserk was its ability to place such great emphasis on the contrast between scales. On one hand is Griffith this power hungry scumbag parading around as a hero and on the other you have this single mortal wounded man who suffers and struggles everyday of his life since day 1 just to get a foothold. Guts didnt seek power or glory, he never got rewarded for all he went through. But the suffering did bestow upon him the amazing ability to persevere and appreciate the smallest of things. Griffith on the otherhand cannot satiate his desires despite walking the path of altruism, cultivating an empire and a cult of personality and establishing a new world order. Griffith is never deified in the eyes of the reader because we see first hand the atrocities he directly and personally commits. They were so heinous that in the minds of the reader, they are inseperable from any future actions Griffith could ever make. So when we see those fall for his divine presence and charisma we are immediatley reminded of all the atrocities he commited. This awareness indirectly showcases how deluded and/or blinded Griffith's followers are to his true nature which thus communicates to us the dangers in buying into the charisma of a leader.
Herbert, deconstructing the trope before it became mainstream, creating a logical reason to use swords in a futuristic setting when many sci fi worlds of today only use the rule of cool... this dude was 70 years ahead of his time
Thank you; really great analysis. I’d been wondering if younger generations were becoming tired of cinematic saviours, tired of superheroes, or tired of spectacle meaning emotional & narrative simplicity. It seems like Dune 2 might put a stop to this like Gandalf stopping a Balrog, it is really inspiring to see a complex tragic arc resonate with people much younger than myself, in a genre which seems to habitually underestimate its audience. Villeneuve in my eyes has now directed 3 (4) of the best sci fis of all time, and with Rendevous with Rama coming, that could easily become 5. Keep thinking about putting some money on him eventually directing akira now too…
As Frank Herbert says at the end of the extract, you should follow Paul "for all the good reasons, not for any bad reasons". Paul is a noble (I mean in character) person from the beginning to the end of the first Dune novel. In the beginning, he is willinful to risk his life to save the Shadout Mapes and at the ending he is willingful to let Thufir Hawat kill him as a token of sincere gratitude. The quote you choose from Frank Herbert shows that Paul is NOT a space Hitler : his intents where always benevolent, he resisted the jihad as far as he could. Even at the end of the novel, he was thinking that overthrowing Shaddam IV and taking the throne would halt the jihad. And Herbert choose to write him as a true likeable, decent, heroic figure because his idea was to show a classical heroic story in Dune, then a deconstruction of this story in Dune Messiah. He didn't believe in the idea that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely", and could accpet the idea that "messiahs" were rightful reformers with legitimate goals. What he thought was that "power attracts corruptible people" so once the "messiah" had established a new power structure, that structure would degenerate due to unquestioning worship and cynicism of the people taking control of the structure. "Muad’Dib from whom all blessingsflow,he thought, and it was the bitterest thought of his life. They [The Fremen] sense that I must take the throne, he thought. But they cannot know I do it to prevent the jihad." The notion that Paul manipulated the Fremen to exact his revenge and follow selfish goals is a misunderstanding. Basically, Paul at the end of the novel has become a Fremen, truly and sincerely, he cannot manipulate them against their interests (as he perceives them) because he is one of them, which does not mean he can't make mistakes, but that is the story in Dune Messiah, not Dune. For all the novel, Paul tries to avoid the jihad. He is desperate because the more his prescience gives him glimpses of the future, the less he sees the possibility to avoid it. But nowhere in the novel can you read a passage that would imply that Paul chooses to act despite knowing that his decision would lead to the jihad. At some point, he even realises that even if he died, the legend would make his memory alone sufficiently powerful to make the jihad happen. You mention the spice epiphany Paul has briefly after the battle of Arraken and the death of his father. In this epiphany, he realises exactly the opposite of what you elaborate : he rejects hatred and revenge. "He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this-the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad. Surely, I cannot choose that way, he thought." The reason why this inevitability is beyond Paul's decision is due to the nature of the jihad. The bloody holy war is just the visible aspect of the jihad. The more primal, deep nature of the jihad is the sexual pulsion of mankind. Due to the organization of the universe following the Butlerian Jihad, mankind has stayed stagnant for too long : the system of the faufreluches, the control of space travel by the Guild and the Bene Gesserit tampering with the natural genetic selection had created a vast tension in the human species, calling for a desire for chaos and expansion (Paul resisted the idea where his son fully fulfilled it with the Golden Path). "And he sampled the time- winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once as his own terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier. And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest bit of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the jihad would be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They needed only the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given them mastery even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist."
@@earlpipe9713 What you say is established in Dune Messiah, not Dune. Dune Messiah happens 12 years after the events in Dune. In Dune, we follow the story of a man before the jihad, a man who has not exerted the slightest galactic power yet, and whose will was to avoid the bloodshed, not unleash it. In Dune Messiah, we follow a man after he reigned as Emperor for 12 years, and a man experiencing bitterness and depression because of what was done in his name. As I tried to explain, Herbert takes a great care to change the point of view on his character in the different books. Plus, your point is dishonest or incomplete. Paul do not compare himself to Hitler only, but to Gengis Khan too, which is much more nuanced, because Gengis Khan's reign and legacy are obviously far less controversial. Paul wants Stilgar to understand the historical significance of the jihad, and it is obvious from the text that he deplores the jihad, he is not proud of it. The lesson he wants Stilgar to learn is that Paul will be remembered as a monster, and he makes the point clear for the fanatic Qizarate who is present in the room. (But Herbert plays with History too, because perhaps Gengis Khan was considered an absolute terror in his lifetime, but when juxtaposed with Hitler, he appears as a less villainous figure). Anyway, the whole scene proves that Paul's morality has not changed : he had always feared the jihad and now he despises it. The only thing changed in Dune Messiah is that we can no longer see him as a hero but as a pathetic helpless character. Don't know if you are a sport addict but read all the articles written about Canadian sprinter Ben Johnson, from his debut to 1988. All the articles in the first part of his career will show a success story with the usual tropes about great sportsmen (courage, dedication, training ethics plus glorification through magazines, photos, ads), then take the articles after1988 Seoul Games and the dopage scandal (cheating, betrayal of sportsmanship, etc.). I think that it is this kind of narrative trajectory Herbert was imagining with Dune/Dune Messiah.
@@earlpipe9713 Sorry. I hope you will take time someday. I write long texts out of respect for people, in the name of solidly documented discussion, but as English is not my native language, I ofetn end up with circonvoluted formulations.
Too be fair in the books you can clearly tell George RR Martins biggest influence is Dune. Bloodraven and Leto II pretty much have the same personality and goals. The Prophecy of Azor Ahai is very much a thing that was planted by magical forces.
Criticizing radical Islam is apparently a no go. It's crazy how almost nobody talking about the film points out how it criticizes radical Islam, specifically the sunni (Zensunni)
Watched a lot of videos after Dune 2, trying to wrap my head around this (not having finished the book yet.) This is by far the best! Excellent job laying out the reasoning behind the stark difference from the stories we are used to, in a respectful and well articulated manner.
Maybe its not clear in the movies, in the books Muaddib doesnt take charge of the jihad just for revenge or greed for power. By the time he is fully transformed and sees the future clearly he already gave the fremen the tools to defeat any invaders and made it clear that with spice they can control all humanity. The fremen would have taken that power with or without him. Herbert books span thousands of years and the cataclysmic challanges Muaddib and his successors see in the far future and their long plan to overcome them is what the series is really about, the war in the film is a rather small part of the story. For humanity to survive what the future brings, according to Muaddibs calculations, he must take total control of all humanity and reshape it, no matter the costs. The end Muaddib seeingly and willingly accepts for himself is not something you expect from a vain, selfish tyrant, but rather from someone who is certain of the need to inflict desperate measures on himself and his people. Unfortunately Herbert did not complete his book series, so we wont know what challenges he had envisioned for humanity in the far future and wether the Atreides path was really the only option, or wether all the suffering was in vain and the ingenuity of humanity would have overcome them in some other way.
@@CyberMonkey03 he passed away before finishing the last book. His son published two books that complete the saga, but they are written in a very different style and also don´t really follow the original dune canon, so they are more like a sub par fan fiction ending. Some of the books of the son, Brian Herbert, that take place before Pauls story, are quite good though.
using Jon Snow when Daenerys Targaryen, the last hope of a great fallen house, forced to survive in a harsh desert environment, obsessed with the idea that she’s a prophetic hero promised by archaic myths, weaponizing this, and being faced with difficult moral choices and thusly becoming a morally grey character herself, is a choice.
Leto is the actual chosen one and space messiah. He willingly chooses mutation and the fear and hatred of his subjects to guarantee the survival of humankind and millenia long existence as a grotesque monster. He doesn’t even have his own offspring but let’s Duncan Idaho be the father of mankind. He is the most selfless character in all the fiction I have read so far.
you understood one of the crucial points of the saga. Congratulations, because believe it or not, a lot of people don't understand. And by the way, I read Messiah when I was about 16 years old (I'm now 42 lol) and I hated it at the time, precisely because it wasn't what I was expecting. Nowadays it's my second favorite book of the original 6, behind only the fourth.
To be fair, The Matrix also deconstructs the Chosen One trope Neo is only one of many possibilities within the system He's just the one possibility that carried it through to a conclusion that made everything end
Its funny that you put Jon in the thumbnail as a typical "Chosen One" because in the books its a very different story when it comes to "The Prince that was promised"
Yeah a few people have mentioned this. I’ve read all of the ASOIAF books and know Jon is much different in the books. I really was referring to the iteration we see in the show. I should’ve said GoT instead
Also notable that Paul isn’t certain of what he sees at first, and tells himself if he sees more or tries hard enough surely he can avoid that. Or that he can keep it contained. Once he drinks he sees how wrong he was, and that attempt at taking control is more rather than less likely to make it happen
Jon snow was not supposed to be the typical “chosen one” though. At least if the story is consistent. He’s not some fantasy hero, the show just made him insanely one dimensional.
I don’t think dune “deconstructed” the chosen one trope, maybe for people who are not familiar with Russian classic literature, his story sounds unusual, but he is literally the chosen one + extra/wrong person trope + romantic trope
I'm guessing that you're young. Back when he wrote this, a lot of people were freaking out about "cult of personality" leaders: a new kind of leader that used sophisticated new psychology and new mass media technology to manipulate the masses like never before. Whether the leader was good (MLK) or evil (Hitler) people freaked out that this kind of control was even possible. When I was a child in the 1970s, I recall some adults (particularly the well-read ones) still talking about it with real fear in their voices. That kind of thing tends to stick in a child's mind. It would not hurt to read about this phenomenon (cult of personality), because what Obama, Trump and Putin do with social media has parallels with what Hitler and others did with radio, newspapers, etc. Anyway, Paul is the main character, but NOT the good guy. It's easy to think otherwise. You get swept up in his quest to avenge his people, but the story is simply demonstrating how easy it is to get swept up in a movement like this. Paul has every possible attribute one could want in a leader, and things still go horribly wrong because at the end of the day, he is still human.
Nice summary of Herbert's wider messsage, but I would argue it's slightly unfair to include The Matrix in your "films that use the Chosen One trope", mainly because the Matrix Trilogy is basically a retelling of the first two Dune books.
To me the most interesting way to read Dune is that the prescient visions Paul and Leto II have may not be 100% accurate. Does Paul deciding to lead the Fremen necessitate the jihad? Maybe. But maybe Paul could've chosen a different path, and his visions led him into a self fulfilling prophecy. Same with Leto lI and his Golden Path. Was this really the only way to save humanity, or was this just what Leto II THOUGHT was the only way to save humanity?
Exactly, and whatever visions they have will also have as their top priority influencing them, the need for themselves or their House to be at the top of the power pyramid. It's simply baked into their very beings and psyches, and so many never seem to consider this factor.
Bravo, great analysis! These days distrust in government unfortunately also leads to blindly following demagogues, who mask themselves as victims and bearers of "the truth". But then this "distrust" isn't real critical thinking based on integrity and factual arguments, but trying to secure privileges, aiming for material advantage and exclusion of others from that.
Bit unfair to put Jon Snow into the "generic chosen one" pile considering that hes about to drastically change and we still have no idea how he will act post-resurrection
I get the fact that what he is doing MIGHT lead into a disaster to everyone in the universe… but what else is he supposed to do to? If he doesn’t get the revenge against the Harkonnens, they will continue to exploit and oppress the fremens in order to get the spice which I think is worse for Fremens than at least having hope for someone who is supposed to give you green paradise in a desert.
Well, I would say the Matrix half deconstructs the “Chosen One” trope. In that The One is meant to reset the Matrix, not save mankind. But then it turns out Neo is actually the real “The One.”
Paul is the hero of humanity, the great man of history, the desire to greatness is greater then the desire for mediocrity. It does not matter how many people died, his vision is the great man of history and that will always dominate the globe.
I did feel the ending to this Dune was better as it showed the tragedy, if you look at it in one angle. About song of Ice and Fire, chosen one. I think there was alot of deconstruction on that trope as well. For one so.e of the prophet of the story are not real prophet. Like Aeron Grayjoy is playing prophet as a coping mechanism to what Euron Grayjoy did. As for the real prophets of the story like Brann Stark or Patchface; they lose bits of there sanity and humanity. Brann is being socially engendered for some purpose but it does not look good. Dany Targaryen may be the closest thing to Paul Atreides as she gets exiled and comes back with an army. But when she comes back she is going to have alot of people killed. She is also showing mental problems in the book. As for Jon Snow he may be the most likable (but not flawless) character. However, if the book goes like the show Jon gets exiled. Alot of prophets or big philosophers that may have been likable in our history were killed, exiled or at best died pennyless.
The idea that Paul is "Space Hitler" completely contradicts the whole message of the book, because that case indicates that if someone "good" became a leader than everything would be ok. Paul is a good person and tries to be a good leader, his actions from a moral stanpoint are understandable, his father, a good and honorable man, died by the hands of the Harkonnen and the Emperor along side with everything that he cared for, so he went for revenge. He helped a group of opressed people to get free and he did have clear visions of the future after some point that indicated humanity's extinction. The problem is that structures of power have a life of their on, even if Paul had stopped as soon as he saw those visions with more clarity, his name would still be carried by the Fermen as a Messiah, and his morals as an Artreides couldn't let him leave the Fermen or Chani to be opressed. But the Prophecy created by the Bene Gesserit (A part of this Structures of Power) wouldn't allow him to go back in his decisions, the thing isn't that he is "Good" or "Bad" but that the position in power itself restrains, it doesn't matter who holds it, the adoration of an especific church or leader and the consequential creation of fanatics are the main point, fanatics that wouldn't even listen to their prophet messages anymore, it also creates stagnation, since a lot of the evolutions we faced in society came from the doubting of such institutions, not the leader itself. Even a good leader can lead to a bad outcome, that's why we need to think for ourselves.
Yeah I mean it’s a very imperfect and admittedly hyperbolic analogy. I’m really just referring to the sheer amount of human death that came about as the result of Paul’s rule -regardless of his intentions. I agree with you though.
If there is another film that deconstructed the chosen one tropes, whilst actually still giving a hopeful message compared to DUNE..The Last jedi comes to mind for me..the lesson of compassion is rooted in that film..and I loved it!! DUNE MESSIAH is going to be interesting, and I am intruiged what the reaction or take away is going to be for that era of Paul's life....Also, shit just gets fucking wilder and weirder after Children of Dune....but its the type of weirdness I kind of would expect in the FAAAR FAR future...(personally, I would stop at God emperor of DUNE..originally I didn't like it that much but it dawned to me that it really could of been the last chapter of this series..and have a better appreciation for it)
Honestly I don’t know! I never put any vocals to it. I pretty much only intended it to be used as background music for my channel.. but maybe I’ll do something with it now! Thanks so much - I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Matrix's "messiah" concept was a bit more nuanced than the basic version of the troupe....IE the prophecy was another system of control. Also, harry potter was a story for kids, so it makes sense that it went with the simple take on the troupe. But yeah dune is next level with it.
I don't think we've lost our distrust of government. I think for us that distrust is being manipulated by an opportunistic predatory group very much like the use of the prophecy of Mu'adib.
i also watched dune part 1 lst week only because i dont wanna watch a movie with religious people and achose one and prophecies and all that. ti cant take all that seriously. This series works for me though because it seems a little more complicated and I dont find myselfrooting for any one other han Chani.also paul gives impending doom vibes which is precisely what would happen with when a fighting class of people follow a prophecy
What is your reason for not reassessing the Matrix the same way you reassessed your understanding of Dune on the sequels? Spoilers for later Matrix. Turns out the Chosen One was part of the Machines plan for control in the Matrix and it falls in line with the deconstruction of the Chosen One archetype in that way.
Yeah honestly I should’ve after reading the comments here. Truth be told, I haven’t seen the sequels in a minute and basically forgot about that aspect of the franchise. Would’ve made for a better video if I did lol
That's fair; I do think the first Matrix matched your use of it in the video and to your point I believe one of the reasons the Wachowskis made the sequels the way they did is because of what your video pointed out. Good video still.@@stopculture
Deconstruction of the hero goes against the spirit of human storytelling. The story of the chosen one is the universal story, hence the protagonist in every story is referred to as the hero even when he is not a Greek demigod. So of course it is everywhere. You cannot compare Dune with stories like Harry Potter. Harry Potter is mythological, Dune is philosophical fiction. It isn't really a "story". It is the anti-story
Uh, did you forget that Harry and Neo are also not chosen as Heroes? Harry was chosen to die with Voldemort and Neo was chosen to reset the Matrix. You actually took the propaganda Dumbledore created and compare it to Dune. No good story will ever run the "Chosen One" trope and that is the trope. The biggest reveal in lotr is that Frodo is really just a "Ring Bearer", not a "Chosen One" who can destroy the ring. Anikin was Chosen to bring the balance of power. Do you see the pattern now?
Another proof how George Lucas was heavily influenced by Herbert's Dune : look at Anakin Skywalker. Using the Chosen One trope to turn him nto the most fakous cinema vilain.
3:42 You're so funny... THEY WILL NOT REALIZE THAT. If there's something i learned over the years is that if they have "protagonist" over their heads people will think they're right! Especially if they started as good. Just look at the shameful reaction to Eren Jaeger. But at least this time seems to be different and almost all seem to get it, but unfortunately a lot of people are just calling paul "anakin", bleeeehhh. Dont compare both stories dune is 100x better.
![แข่งแลกของ 1 วัน!! ของใครแพงสุดชนะ!! [Ver.2024]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/joRT59ilPHg/mqdefault.jpg)
I just think it's hilarious how even back in the 60s, Frank Herbert was already like "I'm so fucking sick of this trope" like the poor man had no idea what was about to come. Or maybe he did lol.
Exactly. Like how common was this trope back then that herbert felt the need to meticulously deconstruct it?
@@giovannigonzalez6349the ones that come to mind off the top are Jesus, King Arthur, and Aragorn
One of Dune's objectives was to build a counteragument towards the ideas of The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell
Joseph Campbell was already well established by the time Dune was published. Hollywood writers already had their Bible.
@@MrMuel1205 Yes and they also misinterpreted Campbell's work. This is a common problem among human beings. How many people are Christians or Muslims and don't full understand the contents or even read the Bible or the Koran? They see them as symbols, but don't understand them in depth.
For me the best part about how these adaptations have handled Paul becoming a Chosen One is how even Part 1 is making it clear that he shouldn't have been one in the first place. The reverend mother mentions that Paul was not supposed to have been born male, that the genetics program is now set back and needs correcting to actually produce the Kwisatz Haderach, and then the multiple references to how the Bene Gesserit have been preparing and prompting local beliefs to support their own agents as an emergency measure. If I remember rightly, there is also mention of other candidates (such as Fey-Rautha) in Part 1, further indicating that Paul is just taking the role of Chosen One, but is not meant to be in the role. To the Fremen, he's a promised messiah. To the Bene Gesserit, he's a mistake. To Leto, he's his son and nothing more, and only once this influence is out of his life does Paul begin acting like those that made him, being willing to manipulate towards a goal.
Even if you don't realise it, the first part is planting those seeds of doubt in the viewer's mind. Then the second comes around and shows you exactly why you should have been fearful instead. I really hope Denis Villeneuve gets to adapt Dune Messiah, because even thought he definitely changes things he absolutely understands the point of the work - and that is how you make a good adaptation.
Well said, to add to this; I saw Villeneuve saying that Herbert wrote Messiah to hammer home this concept, as in the wake of the success of Dune, he was frustrated that the message still seemed lost on some people. Denis said he felt it was appropriate to bring this telegraphing of impending doom forward in the adaptation, to embellish what he saw (rightly I would say) as Herbert’s true intention and make sure that cinema goers all got the message
That was the same as the books, honestly.
To be fair we must split the Kwisatz Haderach off from the Lisan Al-Gaib. The KH is a genetically crafted superbeing set for manipulation by the BG, although how they thought they might manipulate a being of such power, foresight and ability to glean the past, trained to use his power, is beyond me. Meanwhile the Lisan Al-Gaib is just a crappy false prophecy.
For me all this bene gesserit thing is silly and stupid. What are they doing? There are no sides? Psyhopatic Feyd Rauthe who killed his mother is the good prototype?. Oh, it is just disgusting. And the thing the the first bene gesserit director made the Taro cards schedule to decide how to act is just ridiculous. I don't think that she was taken the wirld to the happyness, she was at the wrong place for too long. The next sign that one person can not occupy the important position in the state during whole her live.
It has been a long time since I read it, but wasn't it that Paul was supposed to be female, marry Feyd-Rautha and the child of that union the real Kwisatz Haderach?
lol i love this bc dune deconstructed the trope 20 years before everything else in the thumbnail 😂😂
well lotr was written before dune
@@alienfromlhs1140b and even then the "chosen one" of that story is not even the main character of the story it was just a broken man that reject a tille and had to embrace not because of honor but because it was the only way to save middle earth.
Well. Paul knows he is more a naughty boy and hates the 'chosen one thing" so much so that he runs from the golden path in later books and hides out in the desert as a blind prophet and tries to talk his son Leto II out of following the golden path
Not only that, he actively preaches against the religion the fremen have built around him. So much so that it gets him killed.
He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!
After he kills 60 billion people.
Never too late to hit your redemption arc, even if you’ve merked 60 billion people
@@Nexuspoint2542nah its moreso like yoda than dune
What's great about the way Dune handles the trope is that his destiny is forced onto him. Most characters just accept but Paul doesn't want to, the movie also gives him a good reason to fear his destiny, once we see the consequences of it, we don't want it for him.
Good take, but I think most people miss the point by simply viewing stories about people as falling into just two categories: hero/antihero or hero/villain and so on.
Dune is nothing if not a modern Greek tragedy. The oral tradition of the ancient Greeks (and of all people both ancient and modern, really) did, indeed, feature a lot of "hero" stories (complete with also-archetypal villains), but the Greeks also knew there was more than one way to be "chosen" by the gods.
MANY of their myths involved curses of the gods - often on a whim, since the gods were quick to take offence at slights real or imagined, but sometimes as actual punishment for real moral offenses (as people saw them then). So tragedies often followed from unanticipated consequences of actions by protagonists the latter couldn't reasonably foresee, making them both perpetrators and victims in a decidedly greyer moral universe than they're perhaps used to telling in Hollywood.
Frank Herbert knew this, of course. Even the "Atreides" name is a clue: in ancient Greek myth that name refers to the House of Atreus, a family suffering a series of tragedies under a multi-generational curse of the gods whose first "adaptations" (for the stage) were done by the playwrights of the Classical Greek age, plays that are still influential to this day...
(Later edit: It recently struck me that the heavy burden of Paul's "gift" of prescience was effectively a variation on the myth of Cassandra - a character whose story is actually on the margins of the original Greek myths surrounding the gods' curse upon the "Atreides". She was famously bestowed the gift of being able to see the future, but with the curse, designed to drive her into madness, of being powerless to do anything about it because the gods also ensured no one would ever believe her warnings...)
I am excited fot dune Mesiah
5:02 You have no idea how many people I have seen miss this crucial point. Either by taking away all of Pauls agency or somehow try to retroactively justify Pauls Jihad through the actions in the later books. (despite none of the 6 books ever writing anything that indicates the Jihad as a necessary evil)
Paul doesn't want the Jihad to happen, but he does willingly decide to go towards the path that leads to it. He hopes to find a loophole, but Frank makes it pretty clear that Paul probably should have walked away after escaping the Harkonnens.
It’s interesting because Paul’s prescience is never described as a certainty. In fact Hebert goes out of his way to let people know there are most definitely limits to his (and Alia’s) abilities. But I think if any of Paul’s visions could be considered near-certainties, it’s his vision of the jihad and the connection to the Fremen.
He 100% knows he can’t utilize the fremen as a religious and military boon to his cause for revenge without the jihad.
@@stopculture Agreed, if he TRULY wanted to avoid the Jihad, he should have left the planet after Duncan and Kynes helped them escapce the Harkonnen, go to exile and live his life quietly there (which was btw. even opportuiny for Leto, who could have done this instead of going to Arakis, especialy since he was warned by multiple sources that if he goes there, he is basicaly dead man walking). But nope, the hate for Harkonnens (and to lesser extent the emperor) was bigger.
The author can't stop the great man of history even when he tries to claim that it is the wrong choice.
Many authors try to make a point only to backfire in how people view their characters, the irony is that Paul is a great man, he is the maker of destiny, he is what people would call a hero and a leader.
The alternative is worse, in his own words he even countradicts his own narrative.
Gatta love it 😂
@@golagiswatchingyou2966 Nope. The golden path is revealed after the Jihad was already inevitable. Neither Leto nor Paul can see whether the jihad was needed to begin with. There's nothing stating the Jihad was necessary, and many hints that it is what made the golden path necessary to begin with.
@@SuperHipsterGamerYeah, considering the Golden Path was meant to ensure humanity's survival, which was only in jeopardy because of the mess made by the Jihad and Paul trying to make Arrakis a water paradise which killed the worms, which in turn destroyed the spice, it's more likely than not the Jihad was *why* the Golden Path was needed.
Every chosen one has to have messy dark hair and wear predominantly black. That’s the rule.
It is known…
Damn, I guess Joker from Persona 5 is a chosen one, too.
But that swagger
@@thegarlicbread4422I mean technically yeah lmao
In accordance to this theory, this is why Anakin Skywalker is the Chosen One, and not Luke
I felt very bad for Paul in Dune Messiah. He really did try to be a benevolent leader and do right by everyone. However, there was way too much out of his control. The trick was, Paul had convinced others and himself to put faith in him simply because he could see the future. It was a promise that he would provide humanity through safe passage.
Well, it didn’t work out all too well because Paul couldn’t really control the future even though he could sort of see it. He could merely guide the present to a future that he deemed preferable. This works perfectly fine until there are no more good futures to choose from!
That’s why at the end of Paul’s regime he makes so many bizarre and sometimes counter-productive decisions. All for the purpose of allowing some outcome to play out. Not even a good outcome, just the lesser of a thousand evils.
One of my favorite lines, and I’m paraphrasing here: “I had seen my future, really seen it. Then I relaxed my grip for a moment and things folded back to old ways”
Paul thought he had reinvented leadership, but the truth was at some point his leadership turned into governance. And those are two very different things.
There are elements of this in BR 2049 ... and we saw the rug pull there..
Damn that’s true. I should’ve mentioned that
Yoo🤯
Paul didnt "allow" those people to die for revenge. He only knew that it was a potential future and actively tried to avoid it but was unsure of the exact chain of events that were the trigger. This is a very common misconception of the character even though the first two books spend a lot of time delving into how freaked out Paul is by it all. By the time Paul became aware of this potential future not even suicide would have stopped it, which he knew because he considered it and saw the ramifications (it would have been even worse).
Does he become more of a powerless figurehead then? Isn't he ruling over the Fremen, cant he order them to stop the Jihad?
@@louisazraels7072 not exactly powerless but no he can't exactly control them, only guide them to a certain extent. You could say the Fremen worship his myth not his person, necessarily. I won't discuss more because it would be spoiler territory, I'd recommend the books.
He sees the possibility of the jihad more than anything else. He has options to get off Arrakis and back to Caladan, which would snuff out the potential for a jihad entirely, but he continues on the path, knowing what very well could happen. You’re right that it’s not written in stone, but if any of Paul’s visions could be called a near-certainty, it’s the ones he has of the jihad.
I agree,people are speaking as if it were a simple power play
@@cromcccxvi3787 Well, when you're a member of an ancient aristocrat great house, who's also the product of an ancient eugenic breeding program to ensure "ruler suitable" traits continue in said houses, almost all of your plays will be power plays.
To be fair, Harry Potter has a twist on the chosen one too. In that Harry doesn't have any special power and is really just a chosen one because Voldemort chose to believe the prophecy. Not because of the prophecy itself.
Though it's nowhere near the depth of the deconstruction of the role that Dune has.
Harry Potter is not about a deconstruction of the "chosen one" trope
@@sergiorosales8658 Where did I say it was ?
I am saying it's a twist on the chosen one trope.
Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby comparison there friend
No
@@plaguedoctorjamespainshe6009
@@sorkaem to add to this Harry too had a Choice. He coukd have stoped at any time
Plus his Obsession with the DH showed if he had gained Power like Paul he would have likely corruptet aswell
Yeah. Paul wasn't chosen... he was engineered. Planted.
Edit: thought - the Matrix eventually deconstructed this trope as well, right? The first film is all like 'this guy is the one', then the second film is like: yeah 'the one' is just another thing we dangle infront of people to get them to keep following while they think they're rebelling. Like Obama's 'hope' or Trump 'draining the swamp'.
BUT THEN he really did become the savior, so... it deconstructs itself and constructs itself again. Hmm.
I suppose less audacious in the one since it's also engineered and it would be the sixth time the Oracle tried it. Also oracle said he wasn't the one. The one really was Agent Smith, the one that really forced the Machine's hand. With out Smith Neo would have nothing to solve for.
Harry potter is only the chosen one because voldemort chose to believe the prophecy and by doing that he marked Harry as the chosen one
@@nemanjap8768 Yeah, could've been Neville Longbottom instead.
One comment i will make is Jon Snow (IN THE BOOKS) is a deconstruction of the chosen one and purposefully according to GRRM a realism of what Aragorn is. In fact the whole ASOIF series was a response to the classical fantasy of LOTR and the books make it clear prophecies are deceiving and arguably cause more evil than good. Otherwise a good video about Dune within itself
Very true. Honestly I was really just talking about the show’s version. I should’ve said GOT instead of ASOIAF
Jon Snow is Paul Atreides 2.0.Free Folk are the fremen,Ygritt is Chani (and both had red hair),his sister is Arya (Alia) etc
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 I thought Daenarys also has traits of Paul's. She goes to an area of the world that she is very unfamiliar with, frees repressed peoples and gets hailed as a hero too.
@@toasterroast7678i think both share that chosen one trait. And I agree Daenerys is more like Paul atreides rather than jon. She is bringing destructive force to westeros and might become tyrant without realising it(and might tries to change her path like Paul and dies?) Jon should be Leto ll , son of paul. He is the god emperor who actually followed golden path and fulfilled the so called prophecy instead of paul.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 you are wrong , Daynerys is Paul , John is Jessica , Bran is Alia
Paul is more or less a victim. He's a kid who gets indoctrinated into becoming a Messiah. No one could expect a 16 year old boy to not be rash and selfish in their pursuit of revenge on their father's murderer. He's not a bad guy, but he's not a good guy either, he's a good kid who gets indoctrinated into becoming a tyrant but even there he still feels bad about all the horrible shit he's done.
How I described it to my mom- Paul is the original Anakin to Vader story
Couldn't have made a more reductive and simplistic analogy
@@JVCA44 She's a little new to such plots, so it felt reasonable XD
@@AmataTai oh I get it now, sorry
“No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero” - Pardot Kynes
So glad this ended up on my recommendations. Great analysis! Hope this blows up.
Thank you! I’ve been obsessed with this series for a few weeks now so you can probably expect at least one more video essay on the topic lol
Herbert’s most important point, as I’ve read the books:
Fanaticism hurts us all, in every form.
Wait until you get to know Paul's son, the God Emperor of Dune. He is much more complex than Paul.
I haven’t gotten to COD or GEOD yet, but I know a little about Leto II just from TH-cam and stuff. I’m really excited to read those books.
@@stopcultureThe ones i liked the most.
I think people need to take a look back at The Matrix, the sequels in particular (2 and 3 at least). Neo is a lot more like Paul Atreides than one might think. "The One" as a figure within the Matrix was revealed in Reloaded to to be another part of the Matrix's system of control. Neo becomes a true hero when he realizes this and flips the script to establish the peace treaty between Zion and the Machine City. If Neo could be described as anything, it would be "if Paul Atreides exposed the Bene Jesserit's manipulations, defied their master plan for him, and charted a different path for the human race."
@Tyler_W this is an underrated comment and an excellent observation. Well done.
Thank you!
Basically Neo is Leto II without the foresight, long life, and wisdom.
But a man who chooses to defy his role.
2 and 3 sucked soooo bad though
"If Paul did"....He literally does.
This is the main point of Dune. Thanks for making this because, sadly, many may not get it.
Yes, it's like they never realized that these books are told through a biased lens of characters who are always seeking power, and seeking to justify their power, and take all those justifications for power at face value
During part 2 of villeneuve's dune at somepoint I started to think along lines of "François Truffaut said that 'There's no such thing as an anti-war film.' so I wonder if similarly 'there's no such thing as (well made) anti-hero worship/anti-cult of personality' movies way this is pulling me in"
Berserk and Griffith
@@emmanuelmondesir8677TL:DR Berserk = Leader bad, be your own leader instead.
Truth, one of the many great achievements of Berserk was its ability to place such great emphasis on the contrast between scales. On one hand is Griffith this power hungry scumbag parading around as a hero and on the other you have this single mortal wounded man who suffers and struggles everyday of his life since day 1 just to get a foothold. Guts didnt seek power or glory, he never got rewarded for all he went through. But the suffering did bestow upon him the amazing ability to persevere and appreciate the smallest of things. Griffith on the otherhand cannot satiate his desires despite walking the path of altruism, cultivating an empire and a cult of personality and establishing a new world order. Griffith is never deified in the eyes of the reader because we see first hand the atrocities he directly and personally commits. They were so heinous that in the minds of the reader, they are inseperable from any future actions Griffith could ever make. So when we see those fall for his divine presence and charisma we are immediatley reminded of all the atrocities he commited. This awareness indirectly showcases how deluded and/or blinded Griffith's followers are to his true nature which thus communicates to us the dangers in buying into the charisma of a leader.
All anti something films and you get people idolising the characters that were not meant to be idolised
Herbert, deconstructing the trope before it became mainstream, creating a logical reason to use swords in a futuristic setting when many sci fi worlds of today only use the rule of cool... this dude was 70 years ahead of his time
Thank you; really great analysis. I’d been wondering if younger generations were becoming tired of cinematic saviours, tired of superheroes, or tired of spectacle meaning emotional & narrative simplicity.
It seems like Dune 2 might put a stop to this like Gandalf stopping a Balrog, it is really inspiring to see a complex tragic arc resonate with people much younger than myself, in a genre which seems to habitually underestimate its audience.
Villeneuve in my eyes has now directed 3 (4) of the best sci fis of all time, and with Rendevous with Rama coming, that could easily become 5. Keep thinking about putting some money on him eventually directing akira now too…
As Frank Herbert says at the end of the extract, you should follow Paul "for all the good reasons, not for any bad reasons". Paul is a noble (I mean in character) person from the beginning to the end of the first Dune novel. In the beginning, he is willinful to risk his life to save the Shadout Mapes and at the ending he is willingful to let Thufir Hawat kill him as a token of sincere gratitude. The quote you choose from Frank Herbert shows that Paul is NOT a space Hitler : his intents where always benevolent, he resisted the jihad as far as he could. Even at the end of the novel, he was thinking that overthrowing Shaddam IV and taking the throne would halt the jihad. And Herbert choose to write him as a true likeable, decent, heroic figure because his idea was to show a classical heroic story in Dune, then a deconstruction of this story in Dune Messiah. He didn't believe in the idea that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely", and could accpet the idea that "messiahs" were rightful reformers with legitimate goals. What he thought was that "power attracts corruptible people" so once the "messiah" had established a new power structure, that structure would degenerate due to unquestioning worship and cynicism of the people taking control of the structure.
"Muad’Dib from whom all blessingsflow,he thought, and it was the bitterest thought of his life. They [The Fremen] sense that I must take the throne, he thought. But they cannot know I do it to prevent the jihad."
The notion that Paul manipulated the Fremen to exact his revenge and follow selfish goals is a misunderstanding. Basically, Paul at the end of the novel has become a Fremen, truly and sincerely, he cannot manipulate them against their interests (as he perceives them) because he is one of them, which does not mean he can't make mistakes, but that is the story in Dune Messiah, not Dune. For all the novel, Paul tries to avoid the jihad. He is desperate because the more his prescience gives him glimpses of the future, the less he sees the possibility to avoid it. But nowhere in the novel can you read a passage that would imply that Paul chooses to act despite knowing that his decision would lead to the jihad. At some point, he even realises that even if he died, the legend would make his memory alone sufficiently powerful to make the jihad happen. You mention the spice epiphany Paul has briefly after the battle of Arraken and the death of his father. In this epiphany, he realises exactly the opposite of what you elaborate : he rejects hatred and revenge.
"He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this-the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.
Surely, I cannot choose that way, he thought."
The reason why this inevitability is beyond Paul's decision is due to the nature of the jihad. The bloody holy war is just the visible aspect of the jihad. The more primal, deep nature of the jihad is the sexual pulsion of mankind. Due to the organization of the universe following the Butlerian Jihad, mankind has stayed stagnant for too long : the system of the faufreluches, the control of space travel by the Guild and the Bene Gesserit tampering with the natural genetic selection had created a vast tension in the human species, calling for a desire for chaos and expansion (Paul resisted the idea where his son fully fulfilled it with the Golden Path).
"And he sampled the time- winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now. Here was the unborn jihad, he knew. Here was the race consciousness that he had known once as his own terrible purpose. Here was reason enough for a Kwisatz Haderach or a Lisan al-Gaib or even the halting schemes of the Bene Gesserit. The race of humans had felt its own dormancy, sensed itself grown stale and knew now only the need to experience turmoil in which the genes would mingle and the strong new mixtures survive. All humans were alive as an unconscious single organism in this moment, experiencing a kind of sexual heat that could override any barrier.
And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest bit of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the jihad would be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They needed only the legend he already had become. He had shown them the way, given them mastery even over the Guild which must have the spice to exist."
It is literally the character Paul "Muadib" Atreides who establishes the Space Hitler characterization by comparing himself to Hitler in Dune Messiah.
@@earlpipe9713 What you say is established in Dune Messiah, not Dune. Dune Messiah happens 12 years after the events in Dune. In Dune, we follow the story of a man before the jihad, a man who has not exerted the slightest galactic power yet, and whose will was to avoid the bloodshed, not unleash it. In Dune Messiah, we follow a man after he reigned as Emperor for 12 years, and a man experiencing bitterness and depression because of what was done in his name. As I tried to explain, Herbert takes a great care to change the point of view on his character in the different books.
Plus, your point is dishonest or incomplete. Paul do not compare himself to Hitler only, but to Gengis Khan too, which is much more nuanced, because Gengis Khan's reign and legacy are obviously far less controversial. Paul wants Stilgar to understand the historical significance of the jihad, and it is obvious from the text that he deplores the jihad, he is not proud of it. The lesson he wants Stilgar to learn is that Paul will be remembered as a monster, and he makes the point clear for the fanatic Qizarate who is present in the room. (But Herbert plays with History too, because perhaps Gengis Khan was considered an absolute terror in his lifetime, but when juxtaposed with Hitler, he appears as a less villainous figure).
Anyway, the whole scene proves that Paul's morality has not changed : he had always feared the jihad and now he despises it. The only thing changed in Dune Messiah is that we can no longer see him as a hero but as a pathetic helpless character.
Don't know if you are a sport addict but read all the articles written about Canadian sprinter Ben Johnson, from his debut to 1988. All the articles in the first part of his career will show a success story with the usual tropes about great sportsmen (courage, dedication, training ethics plus glorification through magazines, photos, ads), then take the articles after1988 Seoul Games and the dopage scandal (cheating, betrayal of sportsmanship, etc.). I think that it is this kind of narrative trajectory Herbert was imagining with Dune/Dune Messiah.
@@stefbeg TLDR
@@earlpipe9713 Sorry. I hope you will take time someday. I write long texts out of respect for people, in the name of solidly documented discussion, but as English is not my native language, I ofetn end up with circonvoluted formulations.
@@stefbeghey man you made a good informative post. This got me really interested in exploring the books for myself. Thanks.
You cooked with this essay broskii 🔥🔥
Much appreciated :)
Too be fair in the books you can clearly tell George RR Martins biggest influence is Dune. Bloodraven and Leto II pretty much have the same personality and goals.
The Prophecy of Azor Ahai is very much a thing that was planted by magical forces.
bloodraven (bran) is Alia . son of Daynerys and John will become Leto 2
Paul is more Space Muhammed, but it is dangerous such statement 😂
Criticizing radical Islam is apparently a no go. It's crazy how almost nobody talking about the film points out how it criticizes radical Islam, specifically the sunni (Zensunni)
Watched a lot of videos after Dune 2, trying to wrap my head around this (not having finished the book yet.)
This is by far the best! Excellent job laying out the reasoning behind the stark difference from the stories we are used to, in a respectful and well articulated manner.
Thanks! I have another one coming out in a few days on dune and many more on various topics to come
Despite his flaws, Paul started humanity on the Golden path.
Maybe its not clear in the movies, in the books Muaddib doesnt take charge of the jihad just for revenge or greed for power. By the time he is fully transformed and sees the future clearly he already gave the fremen the tools to defeat any invaders and made it clear that with spice they can control all humanity. The fremen would have taken that power with or without him.
Herbert books span thousands of years and the cataclysmic challanges Muaddib and his successors see in the far future and their long plan to overcome them is what the series is really about, the war in the film is a rather small part of the story. For humanity to survive what the future brings, according to Muaddibs calculations, he must take total control of all humanity and reshape it, no matter the costs. The end Muaddib seeingly and willingly accepts for himself is not something you expect from a vain, selfish tyrant, but rather from someone who is certain of the need to inflict desperate measures on himself and his people.
Unfortunately Herbert did not complete his book series, so we wont know what challenges he had envisioned for humanity in the far future and wether the Atreides path was really the only option, or wether all the suffering was in vain and the ingenuity of humanity would have overcome them in some other way.
He never finished? Damn
@@CyberMonkey03 he passed away before finishing the last book.
His son published two books that complete the saga, but they are written in a very different style and also don´t really follow the original dune canon, so they are more like a sub par fan fiction ending.
Some of the books of the son, Brian Herbert, that take place before Pauls story, are quite good though.
using Jon Snow when Daenerys Targaryen, the last hope of a great fallen house, forced to survive in a harsh desert environment, obsessed with the idea that she’s a prophetic hero promised by archaic myths, weaponizing this, and being faced with difficult moral choices and thusly becoming a morally grey character herself, is a choice.
Paul atriedes and rand Al thor are great characters that fight and resist their part of the hero cycle
Such a good essay! You've got a new subscriber.
Also John Snow was never a chosen one, he was created to become partner of Daynerys - she is chosen one, she is female form of Paul Atreides
First time viewer, gotta say I really like the way you started the video. Will be finishing this later when I can 👌
Leto is the actual chosen one and space messiah. He willingly chooses mutation and the fear and hatred of his subjects to guarantee the survival of humankind and millenia long existence as a grotesque monster.
He doesn’t even have his own offspring but let’s Duncan Idaho be the father of mankind.
He is the most selfless character in all the fiction I have read so far.
Dune first novel is the first book for me that actually lived up to its “masterpiece”/“classic” ranking in my opinion. It’s an astounding experience.
you understood one of the crucial points of the saga. Congratulations, because believe it or not, a lot of people don't understand.
And by the way, I read Messiah when I was about 16 years old (I'm now 42 lol) and I hated it at the time, precisely because it wasn't what I was expecting. Nowadays it's my second favorite book of the original 6, behind only the fourth.
Thanks! Messiah is an incredible book. It’s much more philosophically dense than book one (which is really saying something). I loved it
To be fair, The Matrix also deconstructs the Chosen One trope
Neo is only one of many possibilities within the system
He's just the one possibility that carried it through to a conclusion that made everything end
Really great video and perspective!!
Frank Herbert also said: "No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a hero"
A good example of another chosen one is the chosen one from fallout 2. It portrays the chosen one as more dark as well
Impeccable pronounciation of Denis Villeneuve by the way
Thanks lol I had to look it up on google to be sure
Its funny that you put Jon in the thumbnail as a typical "Chosen One" because in the books its a very different story when it comes to "The Prince that was promised"
Yeah a few people have mentioned this. I’ve read all of the ASOIAF books and know Jon is much different in the books. I really was referring to the iteration we see in the show. I should’ve said GoT instead
There are many *chosen* ones out there but my personal favorite is the Alan Becker stickfigure called "The Chosen One."
Also notable that Paul isn’t certain of what he sees at first, and tells himself if he sees more or tries hard enough surely he can avoid that. Or that he can keep it contained. Once he drinks he sees how wrong he was, and that attempt at taking control is more rather than less likely to make it happen
Bro needs more subscribers
it was deconstructed by Rian Johnson earlier with Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi
Another excellent movie that gets shit on for reasons I can’t understand
@@stopculturelmao
@@stopculture Because the plot was still a terribly executed amalgamation of ideas.
Jon snow was not supposed to be the typical “chosen one” though. At least if the story is consistent. He’s not some fantasy hero, the show just made him insanely one dimensional.
I don’t think dune “deconstructed” the chosen one trope, maybe for people who are not familiar with Russian classic literature, his story sounds unusual, but he is literally the chosen one + extra/wrong person trope + romantic trope
I need an edit of Paul Atreides singing I'm Only Human.
I AM THE 920 SUBSCRIBER AND I AM PROUD OF
Lead them to paradise
Vengeance/retribution is an exponentially worse mind killer than fear.
I'm guessing that you're young.
Back when he wrote this, a lot of people were freaking out about "cult of personality" leaders: a new kind of leader that used sophisticated new psychology and new mass media technology to manipulate the masses like never before. Whether the leader was good (MLK) or evil (Hitler) people freaked out that this kind of control was even possible.
When I was a child in the 1970s, I recall some adults (particularly the well-read ones) still talking about it with real fear in their voices. That kind of thing tends to stick in a child's mind.
It would not hurt to read about this phenomenon (cult of personality), because what Obama, Trump and Putin do with social media has parallels with what Hitler and others did with radio, newspapers, etc.
Anyway, Paul is the main character, but NOT the good guy. It's easy to think otherwise. You get swept up in his quest to avenge his people, but the story is simply demonstrating how easy it is to get swept up in a movement like this.
Paul has every possible attribute one could want in a leader, and things still go horribly wrong because at the end of the day, he is still human.
Demagogues. Nailed it. 😂😂😂
Nice summary of Herbert's wider messsage, but I would argue it's slightly unfair to include The Matrix in your "films that use the Chosen One trope", mainly because the Matrix Trilogy is basically a retelling of the first two Dune books.
I really like chosen one trope
To me the most interesting way to read Dune is that the prescient visions Paul and Leto II have may not be 100% accurate. Does Paul deciding to lead the Fremen necessitate the jihad? Maybe. But maybe Paul could've chosen a different path, and his visions led him into a self fulfilling prophecy. Same with Leto lI and his Golden Path. Was this really the only way to save humanity, or was this just what Leto II THOUGHT was the only way to save humanity?
Exactly, and whatever visions they have will also have as their top priority influencing them, the need for themselves or their House to be at the top of the power pyramid. It's simply baked into their very beings and psyches, and so many never seem to consider this factor.
It's all "The Life of Brian"
Bravo, great analysis! These days distrust in government unfortunately also leads to blindly following demagogues, who mask themselves as victims and bearers of "the truth". But then this "distrust" isn't real critical thinking based on integrity and factual arguments, but trying to secure privileges, aiming for material advantage and exclusion of others from that.
The true chosen one, Anakin Skywalker.
cant wait for all the dune casuals to see the third movie
great video
Thanks Man! Got another dune video coming out tomorrow actually
Bit unfair to put Jon Snow into the "generic chosen one" pile considering that hes about to drastically change and we still have no idea how he will act post-resurrection
I get the fact that what he is doing MIGHT lead into a disaster to everyone in the universe… but what else is he supposed to do to? If he doesn’t get the revenge against the Harkonnens, they will continue to exploit and oppress the fremens in order to get the spice which I think is worse for Fremens than at least having hope for someone who is supposed to give you green paradise in a desert.
Great video
Thanks :)
The chosen one is not a bad trope but it’s nice to have something different.
I find it so depressing how Jon Snow is in the zeitgeist as a generic morally righteous chosen one. It's antithetical to everything GRRM writes about.
Well, I would say the Matrix half deconstructs the “Chosen One” trope. In that The One is meant to reset the Matrix, not save mankind.
But then it turns out Neo is actually the real “The One.”
Paul is the hero of humanity, the great man of history, the desire to greatness is greater then the desire for mediocrity.
It does not matter how many people died, his vision is the great man of history and that will always dominate the globe.
I did feel the ending to this Dune was better as it showed the tragedy, if you look at it in one angle.
About song of Ice and Fire, chosen one. I think there was alot of deconstruction on that trope as well. For one so.e of the prophet of the story are not real prophet. Like Aeron Grayjoy is playing prophet as a coping mechanism to what Euron Grayjoy did. As for the real prophets of the story like Brann Stark or Patchface; they lose bits of there sanity and humanity. Brann is being socially engendered for some purpose but it does not look good. Dany Targaryen may be the closest thing to Paul Atreides as she gets exiled and comes back with an army. But when she comes back she is going to have alot of people killed. She is also showing mental problems in the book. As for Jon Snow he may be the most likable (but not flawless) character. However, if the book goes like the show Jon gets exiled. Alot of prophets or big philosophers that may have been likable in our history were killed, exiled or at best died pennyless.
I mean, can you exactly deconstruct something that hasn't really been constructed anyway?
I hate to be that guy but have you read the wheel of time? Fantasy done similar to this
The idea that Paul is "Space Hitler" completely contradicts the whole message of the book, because that case indicates that if someone "good" became a leader than everything would be ok.
Paul is a good person and tries to be a good leader, his actions from a moral stanpoint are understandable, his father, a good and honorable man, died by the hands of the Harkonnen and the Emperor along side with everything that he cared for, so he went for revenge. He helped a group of opressed people to get free and he did have clear visions of the future after some point that indicated humanity's extinction.
The problem is that structures of power have a life of their on, even if Paul had stopped as soon as he saw those visions with more clarity, his name would still be carried by the Fermen as a Messiah, and his morals as an Artreides couldn't let him leave the Fermen or Chani to be opressed.
But the Prophecy created by the Bene Gesserit (A part of this Structures of Power) wouldn't allow him to go back in his decisions, the thing isn't that he is "Good" or "Bad" but that the position in power itself restrains, it doesn't matter who holds it, the adoration of an especific church or leader and the consequential creation of fanatics are the main point, fanatics that wouldn't even listen to their prophet messages anymore, it also creates stagnation, since a lot of the evolutions we faced in society came from the doubting of such institutions, not the leader itself.
Even a good leader can lead to a bad outcome, that's why we need to think for ourselves.
Yeah I mean it’s a very imperfect and admittedly hyperbolic analogy. I’m really just referring to the sheer amount of human death that came about as the result of Paul’s rule -regardless of his intentions. I agree with you though.
You're over complicating your own thoughts. Just enjoy what's put in front of you😊
Re upload?
Yeah I put it up once and took it down bc Warner hit it with the copyright claim. So I edited a couple clips and put it back up
I think Jon Snow is in a similar boat with Paul. We the audience are already tired of Mel calling other things azor ahai
If there is another film that deconstructed the chosen one tropes, whilst actually still giving a hopeful message compared to DUNE..The Last jedi comes to mind for me..the lesson of compassion is rooted in that film..and I loved it!! DUNE MESSIAH is going to be interesting, and I am intruiged what the reaction or take away is going to be for that era of Paul's life....Also, shit just gets fucking wilder and weirder after Children of Dune....but its the type of weirdness I kind of would expect in the FAAAR FAR future...(personally, I would stop at God emperor of DUNE..originally I didn't like it that much but it dawned to me that it really could of been the last chapter of this series..and have a better appreciation for it)
What's the name of the background music
It’s my band. That’s an unreleased track. The band is called almost sex
The song is great. When is it being released?
Honestly I don’t know! I never put any vocals to it. I pretty much only intended it to be used as background music for my channel.. but maybe I’ll do something with it now! Thanks so much - I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Just to be clear. Paul was the “chosen one” before Harry, Stark, or Neo …
Yeah I know. I mentioned that
All of the story lines are taken from Dune.
Matrix's "messiah" concept was a bit more nuanced than the basic version of the troupe....IE the prophecy was another system of control.
Also, harry potter was a story for kids, so it makes sense that it went with the simple take on the troupe.
But yeah dune is next level with it.
Does anyone see the similarities between Eren Yeager and Paul atreides?
I don't think we've lost our distrust of government. I think for us that distrust is being manipulated by an opportunistic predatory group very much like the use of the prophecy of Mu'adib.
And both manipulative groups are covens, secret societies.
i also watched dune part 1 lst week only because i dont wanna watch a movie with religious people and achose one and prophecies and all that. ti cant take all that seriously. This series works for me though because it seems a little more complicated and I dont find myselfrooting for any one other han Chani.also paul gives impending doom vibes which is precisely what would happen with when a fighting class of people follow a prophecy
Book Jon snow is literally paul
DUNE is about how space Islam is based
What is your reason for not reassessing the Matrix the same way you reassessed your understanding of Dune on the sequels? Spoilers for later Matrix. Turns out the Chosen One was part of the Machines plan for control in the Matrix and it falls in line with the deconstruction of the Chosen One archetype in that way.
Yeah honestly I should’ve after reading the comments here. Truth be told, I haven’t seen the sequels in a minute and basically forgot about that aspect of the franchise. Would’ve made for a better video if I did lol
That's fair; I do think the first Matrix matched your use of it in the video and to your point I believe one of the reasons the Wachowskis made the sequels the way they did is because of what your video pointed out. Good video still.@@stopculture
Deconstruction of the hero goes against the spirit of human storytelling. The story of the chosen one is the universal story, hence the protagonist in every story is referred to as the hero even when he is not a Greek demigod. So of course it is everywhere. You cannot compare Dune with stories like Harry Potter. Harry Potter is mythological, Dune is philosophical fiction. It isn't really a "story". It is the anti-story
wait, "pulling the rug"? I loved the fact that Paul Atreides is space Hitler lmao
I love it too but for general audiences, it might be a hard pill to swallow
Uh, did you forget that Harry and Neo are also not chosen as Heroes? Harry was chosen to die with Voldemort and Neo was chosen to reset the Matrix. You actually took the propaganda Dumbledore created and compare it to Dune. No good story will ever run the "Chosen One" trope and that is the trope. The biggest reveal in lotr is that Frodo is really just a "Ring Bearer", not a "Chosen One" who can destroy the ring. Anikin was Chosen to bring the balance of power. Do you see the pattern now?
That's because those films except for LOTR are gnostic. Still trying to figure out if Dune is. Not as gnostic due to all the Islam parallels
But how will this affect Lebron’s Legacy?
I just thought of Stephen A. Smith giving color commentary on the Harkonnen v. Atreides conflict cuz of this comment so thank you for that dope image
Another proof how George Lucas was heavily influenced by Herbert's Dune : look at Anakin Skywalker. Using the Chosen One trope to turn him nto the most fakous cinema vilain.
I mean it didn’t seem that crazy with anakin
Anakin's turn to the darkside is directly ripped off of Paul's storyline in Dune Messiah.
3:42 You're so funny... THEY WILL NOT REALIZE THAT. If there's something i learned over the years is that if they have "protagonist" over their heads people will think they're right! Especially if they started as good. Just look at the shameful reaction to Eren Jaeger. But at least this time seems to be different and almost all seem to get it, but unfortunately a lot of people are just calling paul "anakin", bleeeehhh. Dont compare both stories dune is 100x better.
I'm surprised you used Harry Potter and not Matrix, since Matrix was inspired by Dune
🧑🔬🕵️🤔