Only way I see the N-S rail link happening is through federal funding, mostly due to Amtrak pressure. Boston's problem is, "Big Dig 2.0" is starting soon with demolishing the I90 viaduct near BU. It shouldn't be as much of a headache as the original one, but it's gonna be a rough 3ish years with that section of highway closed.
Omg I had no idea that was happening. Honestly I don’t think the 90 viaduct is that bad. Considering that it’s cut into the ground and streets cross over it it doesn’t get in the way too much. I was born right before the big dig was completed so I don’t have any memory of what it was like before but I’ve seen pictures, and let me tell you it makes downtown Boston look like a hell hole. In its current form 90 is not nearly as bad as 93 was
@@yaush_ I prolly don't need to point out that if you'd been born when the big dig had started, you still wouldn't remember what it was like before. 😅😂
@@creativemindplay lol I will date myself by saying I was born a couple of years before the project officially began, and while I don’t remember the headaches I do remember all the jersey barriers with the blue “Central Artery/Tunnel Project” signs lol. And Brighams Big Dig ice cream :-). I will admit missing some of the pre-replacement aspects of the central artery though…when I was little I knew the route to the airport by the tunnels lol…first was the prudential tunnel, then the tunnel with the big fans (the South Station tunnel), and then the tunnel under the water (Callahan). I liked the landmarks lol.
There’s a huge imbalance of branches on the two sides. I don’t know what kind of grades are needed to get under all the infrastructure and water, but you’d probably wind up with a South Station with say Old Colony Lines terminating on the current level and your other branches through-running on a lower level. What would probably be cheaper would be to rebuild the Atlantic Ave. elevated as Green Line service.
As an Australian living in Germany this just seemed so obvious to me when I first saw the maps of Boston's railways and became aware of the issues. What I find even more crazy is that an area as large as Providence with a well-located electrified railway running through the middle of it only has the one station plus another at the Airport, you would think Providence is big enough that it could run its own local S-Bahn type service!
If providence was in Europe it would probably get one of those surface level trams that go really slow. This is considering that you can basically reach anywhere in the city by bike in like 30 minutes.
@@yaush_ errr... I dunno why you say slow, modern European tram networks are generally faster and ourperform their US equivalents and generate a hell of a lot more ridership. Cities like Cologne Stuttgart Frankfurt and Dortmund put their trams in Tunnels through the City too
@@BigBlueMan118 low key I’m talking about France but imagine the same thing happens in Germany. A lot of French cities have installed trams in the last 10 years and most of the time biking is faster and sometimes even walking is. There are some trains that run underground and have similar rolling stock to trams in Paris and marseille that are very fast but if you go to a smaller city then they will be slow. Trust me I live in one. I’ve experienced the exact same thing when I went on a trip to southern spain and in Zurich. Street running trams just aren’t that fast.
It's crazy that Philly not only has a regional rail tunnel, fully electric regional rail lines, but also 3 metro/light rail east/west tunnels and 1 north/south tunnel. Boston needs to catch up.
@@georgetklam THIS. Until seating about Amtrak Regional trains is assigned, its first come, first serve for seats. Plus South Station has a food court with more food options and a CVS for basic needs/updates.
I hope you are in the Boston area and can rattle the cages of the local electeds. This was a sound proposal for the "urban ring" that is now currently planned as a bunch of bus lines using some fragmented restricted use roadways. Cheaper than the tunnel and more flood resistant.
My dream is to see a commuter rail (regional rail) along the median of I-95/I-93/Yankee Division Highway that connects all the various commuter rail spurs north and south
One other thing I should add: the conversion to entirely high-level platforms. This would allow for ADA boarding on all cars at every station, the use of power doors (instead of having to manually open a door and a trap), and decreased time standing at stations (as people would board/alight faster due to A: all doors being open and B: not having to walk up/down steps)
Great video. MBTA funding is a huge issue and we need videos like this to educate more people about this problem to (hopefully) get Massachusetts politicians to solve the issue.
the NSRL is not an MBTA project - it would be under the jurisdiction of the FRA- the state needs to come up with money to conduct environmental documents to then apply to the feds
People who live along north station lines don’t have to go to south station for Amtrak, they can take the orange line to back bay where Amtrak stops at
Another great video. Love your content over the years and seeing it get better and better in video and commentary. Definitely vote for a deep dive into the current condition of the MBTA subway. There are a few things I would add to this video: 1) the reasons for the transfer of Big Dig debt to the MBTA; 2) the actual funding sources of the MBTA and its mandate; 3) the governance and leadership of the MBTA; and 4) the private contractor that MBTA uses to run the Commuter Rail, Keolis, and its performance so far. These are topics that help explain why the Commuter Rail is in its current state and the challenges it faces, perhaps can be addressed in the future. Keep up the great work!
By the way, I just want to clarify something. the 80 new Hyundai Brokems aren't replacing the single levels on the south side. They are expanding sets and replacing Kawaski cab cars which will go north to replace the flatcar cab cars.
I'll never get over how unfair it was for MBTA to have to shoulder the Big Dig debt, without getting anything really transformative from the deal. The earthworks for the NSRL are done, but...like, we already had the center of the city under construction; we just needed the rail infra to be put down. Instead, Boston's PUBLIC TRANSIT agency is burdened by billions of debt for a HIGHWAY project. How is that even remotely sensible? Separate thing, but they should also be buying EMUs, instead of loco-hauled trains, when it starts to fully electrify.
Its probably the Most absurd INSANE thing I have ever heard. Make roads better so people are less likely to use Public Transport, on the other hand fail to realise any benefits for Public Transit, stuff Up the project so badly and Take so long that there is No appetite for completing the rail Link, then send the Public Transport Services a bill in the Mail? Get fucked!
This is why I say both parties are scum in Massachusetts. Democrat, Republican, they both equally screwed MBTA with the Big Dig and both parties' malfeasance is why the T is so woefully behind the times on rail safety, fare collection, even it's facilities are about 20-30 years behind unless you live near new Commuter Rail stops or the ferries.
Once you understand how projects, be they highway or rail are designed, built and maintained plus all of the politics, graft, and cost overruns then you will get that any project of this magnitude no matter how good of an idea it may be will not turn out like it ought to. That is why most people turn their backs on them.
@@spuds6423 thats incredibly cynical and hardly true, there are plenty of examples of projects exceeding expectations and bringing significant local benefits - Kansas City Streetcar, San Diego LR, Vancouver Skytrain to name a few in North America, Sydney Light Rail in Australia, Auckland rail electrification in NZ, Munich S-Bahn tunnel as well as most of the tram extensions in Berlin Germany.
I've learned a lot more about the MBTA from this video. Now, I know of some ways it can be improved. Also, your rendering of MBTA ACS-64s and SC-44s look quite cool! I hope they buy some locomotives like those, both for aesthetic reasons and as part of the electrification of the MBTA! Thanks for the video!
@@RaisedLetter Yeah except SEPTA do not understand through-running and all the advantages of it, they seem to be abandoning the idea and totally ruining it.
@@BigBlueMan118 Wait what? They actually are the only transit agency in America that actually connected their separated legacy commuter rail lines! th-cam.com/video/hTWEdhplQe8/w-d-xo.html&sttick=0
Suburban rail shouldn't have locomotives, it needs to be multiple unit trains. Locomotives will always have inferior acceleration because much less of the weight is on the driven wheels. Double decker cars are also a questionable idea, especially the current double deckers which have a very small area that is accessible without stairs and where wheelchairs, bikes, strollers, and large luggage all have to compete for space. They were a reaction to the old commuter model where everyone is trying to get to their Downtown office job at exactly 9:00:00 AM, and it's better to just run more frequent service rather than trying to maximize seats quite so much. Plus, as mentioned by someone else, high platforms are very important, both for accessibility but also for operations because having only a couple doors open while people climb up or down the steps into the car makes stops very slow.
I live in Australia and all stae capitals have electric power systems and in NSW where I live, have electrified the long distance runs from Sydney. They include lines to Newcastle, Kiama and out to Lithgow. Best thing they ever did. Boston should really do the same thing.
This is good, Sam, but I think it's important to talk about how much the Big Dig cost. To complete the Big Dig, Boston spent $8.08 billion..... In 1982 money. Adjusted for inflation, that's $25.5 billion. To put into perspective how insane that is, MBTA as a whole, not just the commuter rail, is planning a budget of $2.72 billion. Even without inflation, the Big Dig cost 2.97 times the MBTA's 2024 budget, so the Big Dig was almost TRIPLE the cost of the MBTA's current budget, even when not considering inflation. Another perspective is BART, the rail system in California, 109 miles, cost $8.49 billion to build after considering inflation, a mere $41 million more than the Big Dig in 1982 money. In 1976 money, BART only cost $1.586 billion to build. To get even crazier, the USS Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier cost about $13 billion to build. So a US nuclear supercarrier actually cost LESS to buy than the Big Dig, which is very crazy to think about.
And the original budgeted cost for Big Dig was $2.8 billion - and it was supposed to construct the NSRL. So after tripling the budget, being delayed for years, been documented as having shoddy construction which needed MORE $$$ to correct - cars win. Mass transit, our health, and our sanity loses.
I gotta wonder about those platform heights too. The prevalence of stairs on every single passenger car and seeming lack of high level platforms seems like a disaster for accessibility.
Similar in many aspects to Philadelphia's commuter rail system prior to the opening of the Center City Commuter Connection tunnel in 1984. Prior to the opening of the tunnel, an individual that wanted to travel to Lansdale or Doylestown (in Bucks County) from either Media (in Delaware County) or Wilmington, Delaware, had to take a train to Suburban Station (which is west of City Hall), then either walked five blocks east (or take the Market-Frankford Line) to Reading Terminal in order to continue north to Lansdale or Doylestown. The tunnel allows either a single (or two seat) ride to their destination.
I’m a staunch supporter of the NSRL. It is frustrating, however, how many transit advocates are more opposed to cars than they are in favor of trains. Everyone needs to have a holistic view of the infrastructure system. Personal vehicles and mass transit synergize quite nicely with each other. My proposal for transit advocates: “induced demand” is a losing talking point. It effectively means “highways are bad, making highways better is worse.” A much better approach is linking highway and rail improvements together. There are advocates for highways with better capacities and advocates for rail systems with better capacities. If they team up, they can help each other.
For DECADES I have wanted to get on the 'T' as to pursue ELECTRIFICATION for the suburban lines! I wish I could have afforded to live in Boston or their greater area, I would have liked to have gotten on the committee for this project. But like everything else, someone always beats me to that challenge! But it goes further now; there were RFWs ('railfan windows') in the partition or bulkhead between driver's cab and public area. Now I see it has been all painted or covered black all front end viewing as well (maybe inclusive of the green line as well) having been terminated! Having the RFWs not only would draw more ridership for Trainspotters, but education for youngsters to be able to SEE and appreciate rail operations and hence even MORE ridership - not to mention the public at large! Plus, the pulling down the wires for the last remaining trolleybus line in Cambridge, (I am an advocate - especially during this Climate Emergency - trying to PROMOTE transport electrification). Problem is, there have been some issues, especially in San Francisco's SFMTA with all their trial battery electrics, BYD, New Flyer, and Proterra, and/or Nova Bus. Pulling down the wires in Cambridge wrapped up all trolleybus operation in Massachusetts that I know of. BAD DECISION! If the MBTA can't find a battery bus that is sufficient, then NO electrification except the Green, red, and Orange lines in Cambridge! And that is going in REVERSE! Thank you!
I would love to see the lines electrified and the North South Rail Link built, but I do not see that happening. Ever. The Big Dig took all the money and room for the tracks!
This. NSRL is never going to happen after the debacle that was the big dig. And don’t get me wrong; it would be a huge improvement to the city’s infrastructure. But no politician will stick their neck out that far after the big dig.
I find it honestly quite ridiculous that the commuter rail is split into two despite connecting their transit modes. But from the things you listed here Sam, there was something I did see of a render on Reddit by either MBTA or someone else in the transit community showing an idea for electrified trains if it was something by Alstom called the X'Trapolis which looked like an EMU, but as much as getting new trains though, it would be pleasing to get new fleets of something not being Siemens or Stadler mixed in with those. MU's I do think would be a good choice for MBTA though.
Great video! I wonder if there is a possibility the mbta could buy some of amtraks acs64’s after the airo is introduced on NER. Maybe they could even have a contract so maintenance can still be done at Southampton yard. Keep up the great vids!
As a Chinese who lived in Boston and had the MBTA as a part of my childhood, I totally agree and assume China could learn from the US in the field of local regional railways (despite having a modern and big intercity high speed rail network)
As a consultant planner working on several MBTA contracts: if MBTA elects to go the route of electrification it will happen on the south side. With the aforementioned existing NEC overhead wires it makes sense to begin there as-well as the existing Amtrak Electric Facilities south of BOS. For MBTA to have to maintain both electric and diesel trains on both sides is not cost effective. Not to mention freight traffic is relatively sparse on all south side lines save for the Worcester Line which negates the freight opposition to wires. Hydrogen/alternate fuels makes much more sense for the north side in the near term from an operations perspective. A suggested path forward in environmental review was the near term acquisition of AEM-7 or ASC-64 locomotives displaced by Amtrak and used with existing cars but that option was shut down. Nice work on the video & interesting ideas 👍
Everything you mentioned would be a great upgrade for the MBTA, but don’t lose sight of what the goal should be: make the MBTA commuter rail a convenient means of transportation for more people. Currently trains don’t come often enough and don’t arrive at their destinations fast enough for it to be practical for most trips. And, as many others point out, lines only run to and from Boston and there is no belt-line connecting the suburbs. People don’t choose to drive instead of take the train because the locomotives and cars are old, the trains are diesel, and the cars are single level. They drive because it is more convenient. If the MBTA were to build new lines, add more locomotives/cars, etc. then I agree they should do it the “right” way with electrified rails, dual level cars, and dual mode locomotives. But, before millions are spent on electrifying existing railways, replacing old (but functional) locomotives and cars, or buying those dumb battery powered trains, we should make sure that what we are getting the best bang for our buck in terms of making the commuter rail more convenient for more people. Mass transit, even if dirty and old, surely must be more efficient than everyone driving their own car and maintaining our thousands of miles of highways.
Ri resident here, I love that we have MBTA commuter rail in ri but the service times are basically impossible to use for anything except commuting (I would avoid driving into boston if I could, but I dont work there, which makes going to a sox game or something impossible with Commuter rail)
The connection for those coming from the north to catch southbound Amtrak (did this for many years) is the Orange Line from North Station to Back Bay. The downside is the awful waiting area in Back Bay which feels like it was designed by someone who hated the idea of people sitting while they wait for a train.
And lack of retail options. And access to leftover unassigned seats from everyone who got first choice access to seats because they got on at South Station.
It is so frustrating that a rail link was not built alongside the big dig. We could’ve had every line run right through boston as it does in philly, but of course cArS hAvE tO tAkE pRiOriTy. If it was built though, here’s how I think the lines should be connected: Fitchburg to Plymouth (the CENTER of Plymouth) Lowell to Greenbush Haverhill to Middleborough (via Anderson RTC and less frequent service down to New Bedford) Lawrence to Franklin (via Reading and Oak Grove) Beverly to Providence (electrified of course with less frequent trips from Newburyport to Wickford) Rockport to Worcester Readville to Reading (via Blue Hill Ave, this would be the most frequent line) Here are the lines that require extensions from existing lines: Danvers to Fall River (via Salem, Back Bay, Stoughton, and Taunton) Woburn to Needham (via Winchester, Back Bay, and Forest Hills, but if the OL is extended to Needham the Woburn Stub can be part of the Lowell Line) and finally, a completely new ring line from Providence to Lowell, via Mansfield, Walpole, Framingham, and Ayer) Feel free to make suggestions
the thing about electrification is that the mbta could electrify the providence line yesterday if they wanted. as you point out, there's already catenary lines going down to providence, but it's also worth mentioning that of the 21 trains that go to providence on weekdays, only 8 actually continue all the way to wickford junction, with the rest terminating in providence. that's 13 trains a day on weekdays, plus 10 more a day on weekends (none of the providence trains go to wickford on the weekend). all the mbta NEEDS to fully electrify their most used rail line is simply to buy some goddamn electric locomotives! $200m could get them 15 or so ACS's no problem, and they could even put in wires on the stoughton spur off the providence line--that's only four miles of track, and the mbta already owns it (any wires going up to wickford would need to be built by the state of rhode island, as the mbta's jurisdiction and ownership of the rails ends at state lines) the thing about the north-south rail link is that it will never be built. the only time it was feasible was during the big dig, and at this point no one has any appetite for putting an even deeper tunnel under 93, or re-routing both north and south stations. and frankly, it's probably better that it wasn't built. aquarium station has been flooding the past few years during winter storms and particularly high tides, so the potential disruption to transit caused by flooding in the three major central stations, all now deeper underground than (i think) any other station in the country, is something i don't want to think about. honestly, an airport-style, end-to-end, no-fare subway running under congress street might be the best possibility at this point
Yes, that would be a great way to help reduce frequent T bus transferring & heavy traffic congestion (i.e. Allston VILL), respectively. Beth Budner, Auburndale, MA!
The trick for getting from the Northeast Corridor to the Northern Lines is to get off in Back Bay and get on the Orange Line to North Station thus avoiding the possibility of having two connecting trains delayed. I’m always shocked MBTA doesn’t note that as an option even if it’s still not a very good one.
With Amtrak getting Airos, maybe the could give some ACS-64's for service on the NEC, and then purchase duel-modes for the rest of the south side within 10 years. Next would be minor upgrades and longer term electrification projects so the system is better prepared for a central tunnel because I'm sure there are upgrades they can do that are better for maintaining/improving existing service and longer term S-bahn style service
There are other improvements that the MBTA needs to make, too. They need at least one ring line for the commuter ra (maybe two), probably somewhere around 95 and a second somewhere around 495. It would also probably be helpful to have a ring subway line, especially if that subway line actually stopped at the airport (and didn’t need a shuttle to the terminals like the current blue line airport stop). They need to increase the number of trains scheduled to at least two an hour, all day, every day of the week (weekend schedules SUCK) to incentivize riders other than daily work commuters. They need to make all their stations, and the walkshed areas around the stations, accessible. They also need to upgrade the subway lines - new tunnels to get rid of sharp, slow turns and decrease the number of bottlenecks on the green line, better trains for accessibility (green line trains have to extend platforms for wheelchair users to board, it’s a process that slows everyone down and sometimes doesn’t even work), and higher frequency schedules. A good transit network should have multiple options, so I’d also advocate for some actual BRT lines (not the shared bus only lane that people ignore).
@@voidjavelin23yah I think it has to with how cheap gas is in the US. It makes a lot more sense to electrify things when gas is absurdly expensive. Additionally if you take France for example it becomes cleaner than gas because most of their power is clean nuclear energy. In the US a lot of it is still natural gas so the environmental savings are less.
For whatever it's worth, you wouldn't transfer at DTX to the Red line from the Orange, you would just take the Orange to Back Bay and hop on Amtrak there directly. That said, still sucks.
The MBTA has been working like gangbusters to expand the service to the South shore with new stations in Fall River and New Bedford. The South Coast Rail project is moving along great, and the service should be up and running by next Spring. It was a major, multi-year investment in the services. Test trains have begun running in the past month to calibrate the signals and crossings. Secondly, back in the early 1900's there WAS a link between South and North stations. This is not a new concept and I recall some of the infrastructure is still there, just decommissioned and out of service. I recall that some of that tunneling is now part of the Green Line. The Big Dig, of itself, was a financial disaster. I worked in Boston for the ONE engineering company that failed to secure any bid for the project. I do not recall any discussions about a related upgrade to the subway or rail infrastructure at that time beyond relocating lines if there was an impact. It may have been proposed, but it never materialized much beyond a speculation. Just prior to The Big Dig, the MBTA completed the major undertaking of the Northeast Corridor; relocating and consolidating the Amtrak, commuter rail and Orange Lines into one passage. They have always had the funding to do what they felt was necessary to do, even under the worst State and Federal administrations.
On topic of dual mode units, Amtrak will probably be selling off its P32AC-DM units once Airofleets arrive, Metro North might do so even earlier. They're not much newer than the F40's, but they would be a cheap option for third rail operations.
As a lifelong Massachusetts resident and former state employee, basically the entire state is mismanaged. Nepotism and politics ruins everything. This is why Massachusetts is on the verge of a crisis, becoming one of the “most moved from” states in America by both residents and major businesses. For such a “progressive” state, it’s a disaster…
Yeah...but...until seating about Amtrak Regional trains is assigned, its first come, first serve for seats. So at Back Bay you're getting access to leftover seats after everyone boards at South Station with first pick of unassigned seats. Plus South Station has a food court with more food options and a CVS for basic needs/updates.
Thank you, Sam, I think one other thing that needs to take place to electrify the Stoughton line, would be either upgrading or adding a better substation. I am not sure the current one can handle more capacity.
I'm a current MBTA employee and there are a lot of talk about getting electric locomotives but that won't be going into affect until after the south coast rail, the new extension from Boston to Springfield and possibly from Boston to New Haven
There are plans to build a new station called West Station that would include trains running on the Grand Junction RR. It is the rail line the T and Amtrak use to move equipment between the North and South stations. One of the problems with the MBTA is that for the longest time it was the home of patronage. There used to be a joke that Senate President William Bulger had gotten people who paid him jobs working in the MBTA that it should be called Mister Bulger's Transit Authority. The reason MASSDOT forced the MBTA to build new stations is that an environmental group had threatened the state with an injunction stopping the Big Dig unless there demands were met. Including in their demands were the building of new MBTA stations.
One big issue with the Commuter Rail is the fare price. Between parking charges of 5-8$ and tickets 20-25$ round trip and can get VERY expensive to ride regularly. Most people I know who have to go in more than 2 days a week prefer to drive to Malden, Alewife, or Braintree and take the subways from there, since the gas+subway is cheaper than the Commuter Rail fair. If they included parking with your train ticket it would be much more accessible for many.
This is also exasperated by Boston's economy. Typically wealthier residents live within the subway zones, and people who cannot afford to live in the city live in the surrounding suburbs aside from a few exceptions like Concord.
Depends on the price of Acela if I can get a cheaper one. Luckily it seems lately that they are holding the first couple of cars for Back Bay after the Cafe Car.
Simple solution to the north south rail link... Cut in a switch to reconnect the Grand Junction to South Station. The bridges there are supposed to be redone in the next few years, so this would be the time to do it. Rail wise it's just under 7 miles. Add a station at MIT and you can have another easy connection to Kendall/MIT, if not MIT and that neighborhood as a whole. Problem is that it seems quite a lot of politicians in that part of the state don't want to loose a campaign talking point that no one has delivered on for decades. And if you can reuse some of the existing trackwork near North Station? Well, no need for say Amtrak to pull into North Station to change direction to head north to Portland. It's not going to be fast. But given how poorly this state has actually been doing with major transit projects? Something absurdly simple might be the best bet. Far less of a chance they'll mess it up if they're mostly upgrading existing infrastructure.
It would be pretty epic if the Fairmount line ran from south station, and continued onto the Newburyport/Rockport line. With all the other lines continuing to North Station. I suppose that would be better if the North South rail link ever gets built/reaches capacity
The literal same thing happened to me when I was in Silver Spring, Maryland and I saw a Norfolk Southern - nine deadhead/helping Amtrak 30 also CSX release their seaboard coastline and pure Marquette market heritage units
The easiest method to get to Amtrak is by going on the orange line to Back Bay since most Amtrak trains leaving Boston go through Back Bay. The only exception is the Downeaster that departs from North Station.
On May 23, 2024, the MBTA Board approved the first option of the original 220-car contract placed on hold in 2020 when it ordered 41 additional Rotem Blind Trailer Coaches for $203 million, with delivery to begin in mid-2026.
Also in the hypothetical example where someone lives in Salem and needs to get to a train to New York… I’ve done this several times bc I live near Salem. You can take the Orange Line from North Station directly to Back Bay which is also an Amtrak stop for Acela, NE Regional, and many of the Commuter lines from S. Station. Again, obviously there should be a direct N-S connection so that it’s one system but please put in some sort of disclaimer that there is the ability to do a 1 seat ride to transfer from N. Station to all NEC trains without having to make 2 transfers or get all the way to S. Station
@@BigBlueMan118 I guess it depends how you look at it. Obviously the commuter train isn’t going to go to NYC so you have to change to the Amtrak train. This is just 1 subway transfer
@@kyrieelite right but for example I currently live in Dresden, Germany. When I go to Berlin, because our commuter rail (S-Bahn) system has through-running from the South to the North across both sides of our River and our two main stations are linked the way Boston should be, I get the S-Bahn from my local station to either one of our main stations North or South, then hop off and get on my Intercity (Amtrak) to Berlin. So that is only one change. US cities because they tend not to run the commuter rail Network through from one side of the City to the other lose a lot of potential improvements, advantages and efficiencies, I can link you to a good article by an expert in the subject if you like?
@@BigBlueMan118Yes I would like to read it. Also there is a city in Germany which is building a second central S-Bahn tunnel because through running the entire network through it causes a ton of delays, I forget which city this is? But yes I very much want the ability to do through running and advocate for it
@@kyrieelite Munich - it is a victim of its own success, they run trains every 2 minutes with long trains and platforms on both sides of the train at most Stations but the system was never designed to handle that much traffic from so many branches, Back when it was built the system handled like half the current passengers.
I agree with most of this. However, it’s not imperative that the MBTA switch to double decker cars. There is less demand post-COVID and double deckers have longer boarding times which slow trips down. If capacity is a concern, then they can run more trains and also induce demand in the process. However, because the MBTA already has an order ready to go for double deckers and a new railcar order would take lots of time to get, I support your proposal of signing off on those new cars.
What is not mentioned in the "trip" from Salem to New York, at the beginning of the video, is that the change from the Orange Line to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing is a long walk, not a simple change of platform. Doing this with baggage would be a true hassle.
Not really tbh. If you pick the right car, it's significantly less than the walk from the red line to the main South Station Concourse. Additionally, riders can just take the orange line to Back Bay and board Amtrak from there.
Always thought it was a huge blunder NOT to put in the N-S link. And instead they spent $$ on building the Silver Line!? Certainly would have been better 'bang-for-the-buck' with N-S linkage.
I think if they fix the pollution issue at backbay they don’t need to build a north south connector. Other than a few lines that you didn’t electrify that go towards Quincy, all the other lines and Amtrak are well served through Backbay. If they do build a north south connector. It should also assist or improvements to the silver line, possibly replacing the buses.
What’s the benefit of “partial” electrification here, especially to the destinations that you defined? They seem chosen at random, where logistics make electrification of some of those lines (namely Franklin after Norwood central) more difficult/expensive. Furthermore, doesn’t the entire environmental argument rely on full electrification?
A brief look at Amtrak's offerings online shows that they offer departures from both Back Bay Station and South Station on both the Northeast Regional and Acela Express trains. So if you were coming from North Station, you wouldn't want to change to the Red Line to go to South Station, but instead take the Orange Line all the way to Back Bay, or if the Orange Line is busted (which it often is), take the Green Line to Copley and then walk a few blocks to Back Bay (unless the weather is bad -- in that case, if the Orange Line is busted, _then_ you would want to change to the Red Line and go to South Station). Of course, it would be better to have the proposed North-South rail link, but at least passengers aren't completely hosed for options to go between the north and south systems with things as they are. As for electrification and funding, these would be really good, but in addition the whole management and culture of the MBTA needs to be changed -- the MBTA's main specialty is coming up with excuses why things cannot be done, even including such incremental ideas as getting dual-mode locomotives like those proven to work in New Jersey. As for what they are actually doing, changing from single-level to bilevel coaches, while having some merit for saving on station platform length for a given capacity, is not an unmitigated improvement. Single-level coaches are much easier to load and unload at high-level platforms, especially for people for whom stairs are a barrier; at low-level platforms, both types of coaches are hard to load and unload (since the bilevel coaches that the MBTA has do not have low-level doors (meaning you have to go up stairs and then back down again if you are riding on the lower level). If you have the room to extend station platforms, it would be better to do this and stick with single-level coaches for faster loading and unloading.
The GP40s aren’t exactly falling apart, but I do believe deferred maintenance has certainly caused them to be less reliable. EMD’s gp units were very popular because they were very reliable
Think electrification of the Fairmount Line should be a priority with catenary. For the neighborhoods and as redundancy and resiliency for the Northeast Corridor
It might just be my enthusiasm for UK rolling stock, but I think it would be cool to see British Rail class 440 "Desiro" trains or the British Rail class 800s in MBTA livery for their southeastern corridor to Plymouth or Wareham stations.
Good well researched video. Has the MBTA patched it's relationship with Hyundai Rotem? If you ride the Hudson River line, you see a lot of MBTA double Deckers at Kawasaki in Yonkers.
Electrification is VERY expensive and it does not reduce train operating expenses. you need to consider the trade offs, more lines and more frequent service vs electrification. Most commuter lines can't go much faster due to close station spacing, most of the slow acceleration problems relate to head end hp and gearing, passenger locomotives are generally geared to be faster intercity service with long station spacing and higher top speeds using four axle locomotives, freight locomotives are geared for pulling with lower top speeds generally using six axle locomotives, this is exactly what commuter rail needs. As for pollution issues, most electricity is generated by burning coal in thermal plants, way dirtier than modern diesels. A lot of commuter lines are stuck with older locomotives, often retired from intercity service with millions of miles of wear on them, just like city garbage trucks and busses, they're old.
Amtrak serves Back Bay but it doesn't have the proper waiting areas and shops of a major intercity rail station. And like you mentioned the pollution exposure from being outside. Amtrak would benefit from having the Downeaster connected into the network
Look at the map - One issue everyone complains about is that the whole system radiates around Boston. They need to make connections between towns outside of Boston to make it more useful to suburbanites.
Your commentary about transit not making money is spot-on! When transit funding is in the hands of politicians it seems that systemic harmony and working to overcome challenges collaboratively are antiethical to politicans' sense of self-interest - with too few exceptions in the past 70 years.
You need to do some reuses. Very easy to connect to Amtrak from lines into North Station. Just take the Orange line to Back Bay. ALL Amtrak trains stop there!!
Great video! Boston has an amazing existing network that with the right upgrades could be world-class. Hope to see improvements soon. Imagine the progress that could be made if someone like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos decided to throw a few billion at the MBTA. They could each drop 10 billion without even feeling it.
Something to keep in mind. F40 and GP40's use EMD 645 engines, which have PLENTY of parts available. They are still more reliable than most tier 4 engines. I think MBTA and METRA are the only 2 commuter railroads to have figured this out. There's a reason these companies keep looking for EMD's.
An important note about the Big Dig debt is that it's not like debt from the project was transferred to the MBTA, rather the MBTA agreed to expansions as part of the deal for the Big Dig, and because they have insufficient and inconsistent funding they have struggled to pay it off.
I didn't read all the comments, but I am not sure how partial electrification is feasable on a route. IE the Worcester line only electrified to Framingham. You would still need diesels to go the last 20 miles. Just do the entire line at once.
Some lines should be linked to the subway network. Like extending the orange line both ways and the red line too. Red line should replace the green bush line and former Bedford line
Philadelphia's commuter rail system & agency, SEPTA, suffers from many of the same neglect, underfunding, mismanagement, & corruption issues as MBTA. The one bright spot was that Philly DID complete their "Downtown Rail Link", joining up the old Pennsy & Reading systems into one unified system. The downside was, the long tunnel required all trains to be electrified, so when the new system debuted in the early 1980's, all the existing longer less traffic-ed diesel lines were eliminated. None of them have ever been brought back, altho there's been talk about the Reading line being electrified. Philly has other big problems with their subway / heavy rail system & the hodge podge of leftover old trolley lines aka light rail that are taking up funding priorities. Extending the Broad Street Line up Roosevelt Blvd should be a no brainer but the cheapskates are talking light rail or busway. Don't make the same mistake New York did w/the Brooklyn connector.
I've always thought an orbital line should run on the tracks that go from Providence - Worcester - Ayer - Lowell - Lawrence. the tracks are there but they would just need to negotiate with the freight companies
I’ve wondered if the MBTA might pick up some of the ACS64’s when Amtrak replaces them. They will have plenty of life left in them most likely. Hopefully either the MBTA or MARC because running diesels under the wires is nuts.
Do you know about the Peidmont service in NC? It’s a really reliable service. We use F59PH and PHI locomotives and refurbished Pullman standard coaches. Even though the coaches were built in the 60s, they run flawlessly. It goes to show that not everything that’s old is trash. However NCDOT is planning on buying Siemens trains to replace the old stuff in the future
If the MBTA fully electrifies the province line, they could buy some of the ACS-64s that Amtrak will be selling off. This would keep costs down during the initial stages, while they prove their viability to sceptics.
I agree that nothing battery powered should be considered. But with electrifying, it’s all or nothing. Electrify a line or don’t. That halfway is rife for all kinds of operational problems. The Fairmount Line needs to be a top priority and the first to receive EMU’s. While I don’t think five abreast multilevel cars should be the backbone, since high level platforms aren’t even widespread yet, I’d go along with it, but it would be the last unpowered order I’d make. EMU’s would have much better acceleration and deceleration, which is important if you ever have plans on increasing service from hourly to half h hourly, or ideally every 15-20 minutes per line.
Only way I see the N-S rail link happening is through federal funding, mostly due to Amtrak pressure. Boston's problem is, "Big Dig 2.0" is starting soon with demolishing the I90 viaduct near BU. It shouldn't be as much of a headache as the original one, but it's gonna be a rough 3ish years with that section of highway closed.
yeah
Omg I had no idea that was happening. Honestly I don’t think the 90 viaduct is that bad. Considering that it’s cut into the ground and streets cross over it it doesn’t get in the way too much. I was born right before the big dig was completed so I don’t have any memory of what it was like before but I’ve seen pictures, and let me tell you it makes downtown Boston look like a hell hole. In its current form 90 is not nearly as bad as 93 was
@@yaush_ I prolly don't need to point out that if you'd been born when the big dig had started, you still wouldn't remember what it was like before. 😅😂
@@creativemindplay lol I will date myself by saying I was born a couple of years before the project officially began, and while I don’t remember the headaches I do remember all the jersey barriers with the blue “Central Artery/Tunnel Project” signs lol. And Brighams Big Dig ice cream :-). I will admit missing some of the pre-replacement aspects of the central artery though…when I was little I knew the route to the airport by the tunnels lol…first was the prudential tunnel, then the tunnel with the big fans (the South Station tunnel), and then the tunnel under the water (Callahan). I liked the landmarks lol.
There’s a huge imbalance of branches on the two sides. I don’t know what kind of grades are needed to get under all the infrastructure and water, but you’d probably wind up with a South Station with say Old Colony Lines terminating on the current level and your other branches through-running on a lower level. What would probably be cheaper would be to rebuild the Atlantic Ave. elevated as Green Line service.
As an Australian living in Germany this just seemed so obvious to me when I first saw the maps of Boston's railways and became aware of the issues. What I find even more crazy is that an area as large as Providence with a well-located electrified railway running through the middle of it only has the one station plus another at the Airport, you would think Providence is big enough that it could run its own local S-Bahn type service!
It can have a through line from cape cod via major cities through to Worcester and then to northern MA.
If providence was in Europe it would probably get one of those surface level trams that go really slow. This is considering that you can basically reach anywhere in the city by bike in like 30 minutes.
@@yaush_ errr... I dunno why you say slow, modern European tram networks are generally faster and ourperform their US equivalents and generate a hell of a lot more ridership. Cities like Cologne Stuttgart Frankfurt and Dortmund put their trams in Tunnels through the City too
@@BigBlueMan118 low key I’m talking about France but imagine the same thing happens in Germany. A lot of French cities have installed trams in the last 10 years and most of the time biking is faster and sometimes even walking is. There are some trains that run underground and have similar rolling stock to trams in Paris and marseille that are very fast but if you go to a smaller city then they will be slow. Trust me I live in one. I’ve experienced the exact same thing when I went on a trip to southern spain and in Zurich. Street running trams just aren’t that fast.
@@yaush_ street-running trams typical average is about 20kmh outside of the core of a city and about 12-15kmh within the core, in Tunnel about Double.
It's crazy that Philly not only has a regional rail tunnel, fully electric regional rail lines, but also 3 metro/light rail east/west tunnels and 1 north/south tunnel. Boston needs to catch up.
1:15- no, you would get on the Orange Line to Back Bay (no RL transfer), where all Amtrak trains stop.
… But then you might not have as many choices for seats as if you boarded at South Station.
@@georgetklam THIS. Until seating about Amtrak Regional trains is assigned, its first come, first serve for seats. Plus South Station has a food court with more food options and a CVS for basic needs/updates.
I much rather plan extra time into my commute than stand around in back bay.
Boston desperately needs an orbital line that connects the suburbs together like the Ringbahn in Berlin or the Overground in London
Big +1. NY needs this too, they should have built one along I-287 through White Plains and over the new Tappan Zee down into NJ.
I hope you are in the Boston area and can rattle the cages of the local electeds. This was a sound proposal for the "urban ring" that is now currently planned as a bunch of bus lines using some fragmented restricted use roadways. Cheaper than the tunnel and more flood resistant.
My dream is to see a commuter rail (regional rail) along the median of I-95/I-93/Yankee Division Highway that connects all the various commuter rail spurs north and south
One other thing I should add: the conversion to entirely high-level platforms. This would allow for ADA boarding on all cars at every station, the use of power doors (instead of having to manually open a door and a trap), and decreased time standing at stations (as people would board/alight faster due to A: all doors being open and B: not having to walk up/down steps)
this is already been planned for a long time, just is that it is taking a long time
@@foreverbrod sorry i was stupid i know it was planned i just added it anyways
Great video. MBTA funding is a huge issue and we need videos like this to educate more people about this problem to (hopefully) get Massachusetts politicians to solve the issue.
the NSRL is not an MBTA project - it would be under the jurisdiction of the FRA- the state needs to come up with money to conduct environmental documents to then apply to the feds
People who live along north station lines don’t have to go to south station for Amtrak, they can take the orange line to back bay where Amtrak stops at
That’s what I said… but still North and south should be connected
@@kyrieeliteit would be nice for the NER to just absorb the Downeaster, but that isn't going to happen unless MA builds the freaking tunnel
Another great video. Love your content over the years and seeing it get better and better in video and commentary. Definitely vote for a deep dive into the current condition of the MBTA subway. There are a few things I would add to this video: 1) the reasons for the transfer of Big Dig debt to the MBTA; 2) the actual funding sources of the MBTA and its mandate; 3) the governance and leadership of the MBTA; and 4) the private contractor that MBTA uses to run the Commuter Rail, Keolis, and its performance so far. These are topics that help explain why the Commuter Rail is in its current state and the challenges it faces, perhaps can be addressed in the future. Keep up the great work!
OMG that sounds like a dense MBTA 101 Overview video...and I'm all for it @Worldwiderailfan!
Keolis also runs Thameslink in London haha
@mrvwbug4423 does that mean Thameslink is trash too? Lol!
By the way, I just want to clarify something. the 80 new Hyundai Brokems aren't replacing the single levels on the south side. They are expanding sets and replacing Kawaski cab cars which will go north to replace the flatcar cab cars.
So will the single levels be replaced or not?
@@TheRailcarbusguy eventually. It will probably happen around 2030
I'll never get over how unfair it was for MBTA to have to shoulder the Big Dig debt, without getting anything really transformative from the deal. The earthworks for the NSRL are done, but...like, we already had the center of the city under construction; we just needed the rail infra to be put down. Instead, Boston's PUBLIC TRANSIT agency is burdened by billions of debt for a HIGHWAY project. How is that even remotely sensible?
Separate thing, but they should also be buying EMUs, instead of loco-hauled trains, when it starts to fully electrify.
Its probably the Most absurd INSANE thing I have ever heard. Make roads better so people are less likely to use Public Transport, on the other hand fail to realise any benefits for Public Transit, stuff Up the project so badly and Take so long that there is No appetite for completing the rail Link, then send the Public Transport Services a bill in the Mail? Get fucked!
Madness...only in America :(
This is why I say both parties are scum in Massachusetts. Democrat, Republican, they both equally screwed MBTA with the Big Dig and both parties' malfeasance is why the T is so woefully behind the times on rail safety, fare collection, even it's facilities are about 20-30 years behind unless you live near new Commuter Rail stops or the ferries.
Once you understand how projects, be they highway or rail are designed, built and maintained plus all of the politics, graft, and cost overruns then you will get that any project of this magnitude no matter how good of an idea it may be will not turn out like it ought to.
That is why most people turn their backs on them.
@@spuds6423 thats incredibly cynical and hardly true, there are plenty of examples of projects exceeding expectations and bringing significant local benefits - Kansas City Streetcar, San Diego LR, Vancouver Skytrain to name a few in North America, Sydney Light Rail in Australia, Auckland rail electrification in NZ, Munich S-Bahn tunnel as well as most of the tram extensions in Berlin Germany.
I've learned a lot more about the MBTA from this video. Now, I know of some ways it can be improved.
Also, your rendering of MBTA ACS-64s and SC-44s look quite cool! I hope they buy some locomotives like those, both for aesthetic reasons and as part of the electrification of the MBTA!
Thanks for the video!
Boston crossrail?
More like a Boston SEPTA
@@RaisedLetter Yeah except SEPTA do not understand through-running and all the advantages of it, they seem to be abandoning the idea and totally ruining it.
@@BigBlueMan118 Wait what? They actually are the only transit agency in America that actually connected their separated legacy commuter rail lines! th-cam.com/video/hTWEdhplQe8/w-d-xo.html&sttick=0
Bosrail
that north-south station connection is INSANE, i could not believe that when you were explaining it
Suburban rail shouldn't have locomotives, it needs to be multiple unit trains. Locomotives will always have inferior acceleration because much less of the weight is on the driven wheels. Double decker cars are also a questionable idea, especially the current double deckers which have a very small area that is accessible without stairs and where wheelchairs, bikes, strollers, and large luggage all have to compete for space. They were a reaction to the old commuter model where everyone is trying to get to their Downtown office job at exactly 9:00:00 AM, and it's better to just run more frequent service rather than trying to maximize seats quite so much. Plus, as mentioned by someone else, high platforms are very important, both for accessibility but also for operations because having only a couple doors open while people climb up or down the steps into the car makes stops very slow.
Good points! Especially about passenger cars - had not considered those contexts.
I totally agree with your ideas. That state deserves better
I live in Australia and all stae capitals have electric power systems and in NSW where I live, have electrified the long distance runs from Sydney. They include lines to Newcastle, Kiama and out to Lithgow. Best thing they ever did. Boston should really do the same thing.
This is good, Sam, but I think it's important to talk about how much the Big Dig cost.
To complete the Big Dig, Boston spent $8.08 billion..... In 1982 money. Adjusted for inflation, that's $25.5 billion.
To put into perspective how insane that is, MBTA as a whole, not just the commuter rail, is planning a budget of $2.72 billion. Even without inflation, the Big Dig cost 2.97 times the MBTA's 2024 budget, so the Big Dig was almost TRIPLE the cost of the MBTA's current budget, even when not considering inflation.
Another perspective is BART, the rail system in California, 109 miles, cost $8.49 billion to build after considering inflation, a mere $41 million more than the Big Dig in 1982 money. In 1976 money, BART only cost $1.586 billion to build.
To get even crazier, the USS Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier cost about $13 billion to build. So a US nuclear supercarrier actually cost LESS to buy than the Big Dig, which is very crazy to think about.
And the original budgeted cost for Big Dig was $2.8 billion - and it was supposed to construct the NSRL. So after tripling the budget, being delayed for years, been documented as having shoddy construction which needed MORE $$$ to correct - cars win. Mass transit, our health, and our sanity loses.
I gotta wonder about those platform heights too. The prevalence of stairs on every single passenger car and seeming lack of high level platforms seems like a disaster for accessibility.
South Attleboro was terrible for it, certainly.
It is, and boarding/unboarding is really slow even for the able-bodied.
The mbta is okay with commuter rail accessibility, most stations have a ramp up but there's about 2-3 stops on each line that isn't accessible
@@Lauren-kd1zj Which is ridiculous 34 years after the ADA was passed, every train station in the US should've been accessible by now.
Similar in many aspects to Philadelphia's commuter rail system prior to the opening of the Center City Commuter Connection tunnel in 1984. Prior to the opening of the tunnel, an individual that wanted to travel to Lansdale or Doylestown (in Bucks County) from either Media (in Delaware County) or Wilmington, Delaware, had to take a train to Suburban Station (which is west of City Hall), then either walked five blocks east (or take the Market-Frankford Line) to Reading Terminal in order to continue north to Lansdale or Doylestown. The tunnel allows either a single (or two seat) ride to their destination.
SEPTA got it right! th-cam.com/video/hTWEdhplQe8/w-d-xo.html&sttick=0
The one in Philly is above sea level and not 100 feet down
Awesome video! I really enjoyed it and I think you should make similar videos like this. Keep up the nice work!
this
I’m a staunch supporter of the NSRL. It is frustrating, however, how many transit advocates are more opposed to cars than they are in favor of trains.
Everyone needs to have a holistic view of the infrastructure system. Personal vehicles and mass transit synergize quite nicely with each other. My proposal for transit advocates: “induced demand” is a losing talking point. It effectively means “highways are bad, making highways better is worse.” A much better approach is linking highway and rail improvements together.
There are advocates for highways with better capacities and advocates for rail systems with better capacities. If they team up, they can help each other.
For DECADES I have wanted to get on the 'T' as to pursue ELECTRIFICATION for the suburban lines! I wish I could have afforded to live in Boston or their greater area, I would have liked to have gotten on the committee for this project. But like everything else, someone always beats me to that challenge!
But it goes further now; there were RFWs ('railfan windows') in the partition or bulkhead between driver's cab and public area. Now I see it has been all painted or covered black all front end viewing as well (maybe inclusive of the green line as well) having been terminated! Having the RFWs not only would draw more ridership for Trainspotters, but education for youngsters to be able to SEE and appreciate rail operations and hence even MORE ridership - not to mention the public at large!
Plus, the pulling down the wires for the last remaining trolleybus line in Cambridge, (I am an advocate - especially during this Climate Emergency - trying to PROMOTE transport electrification). Problem is, there have been some issues, especially in San Francisco's SFMTA with all their trial battery electrics, BYD, New Flyer, and Proterra, and/or Nova Bus. Pulling down the wires in Cambridge wrapped up all trolleybus operation in Massachusetts that I know of. BAD DECISION! If the MBTA can't find a battery bus that is sufficient, then NO electrification except the Green, red, and Orange lines in Cambridge! And that is going in REVERSE! Thank you!
I’ve always loved the mbta and I simply couldn’t agree more with this video.
I would love to see the lines electrified and the North South Rail Link built, but I do not see that happening. Ever. The Big Dig took all the money and room for the tracks!
This. NSRL is never going to happen after the debacle that was the big dig. And don’t get me wrong; it would be a huge improvement to the city’s infrastructure. But no politician will stick their neck out that far after the big dig.
I find it honestly quite ridiculous that the commuter rail is split into two despite connecting their transit modes. But from the things you listed here Sam, there was something I did see of a render on Reddit by either MBTA or someone else in the transit community showing an idea for electrified trains if it was something by Alstom called the X'Trapolis which looked like an EMU, but as much as getting new trains though, it would be pleasing to get new fleets of something not being Siemens or Stadler mixed in with those. MU's I do think would be a good choice for MBTA though.
Yes it was by the MBTA there in the middle of the RFP and that’s what Stadler and Alstom proposed for the MBTA.
Great video! I wonder if there is a possibility the mbta could buy some of amtraks acs64’s after the airo is introduced on NER. Maybe they could even have a contract so maintenance can still be done at Southampton yard. Keep up the great vids!
This is an oft repeated rumor that MBTA is planning to do just that
Nice job explaining the funding issues👍
As a Chinese who lived in Boston and had the MBTA as a part of my childhood, I totally agree and assume China could learn from the US in the field of local regional railways (despite having a modern and big intercity high speed rail network)
lol China should look to Europe ignore USA
As a consultant planner working on several MBTA contracts: if MBTA elects to go the route of electrification it will happen on the south side. With the aforementioned existing NEC overhead wires it makes sense to begin there as-well as the existing Amtrak Electric Facilities south of BOS. For MBTA to have to maintain both electric and diesel trains on both sides is not cost effective. Not to mention freight traffic is relatively sparse on all south side lines save for the Worcester Line which negates the freight opposition to wires. Hydrogen/alternate fuels makes
much more sense for the north side in the near term from
an operations perspective. A suggested path forward in environmental review was the near term acquisition of AEM-7 or ASC-64 locomotives displaced by Amtrak and used with existing cars but that option was shut down. Nice work on the video & interesting ideas 👍
Everything you mentioned would be a great upgrade for the MBTA, but don’t lose sight of what the goal should be: make the MBTA commuter rail a convenient means of transportation for more people.
Currently trains don’t come often enough and don’t arrive at their destinations fast enough for it to be practical for most trips. And, as many others point out, lines only run to and from Boston and there is no belt-line connecting the suburbs.
People don’t choose to drive instead of take the train because the locomotives and cars are old, the trains are diesel, and the cars are single level. They drive because it is more convenient.
If the MBTA were to build new lines, add more locomotives/cars, etc. then I agree they should do it the “right” way with electrified rails, dual level cars, and dual mode locomotives. But, before millions are spent on electrifying existing railways, replacing old (but functional) locomotives and cars, or buying those dumb battery powered trains, we should make sure that what we are getting the best bang for our buck in terms of making the commuter rail more convenient for more people.
Mass transit, even if dirty and old, surely must be more efficient than everyone driving their own car and maintaining our thousands of miles of highways.
Ri resident here, I love that we have MBTA commuter rail in ri but the service times are basically impossible to use for anything except commuting (I would avoid driving into boston if I could, but I dont work there, which makes going to a sox game or something impossible with Commuter rail)
The connection for those coming from the north to catch southbound Amtrak (did this for many years) is the Orange Line from North Station to Back Bay. The downside is the awful waiting area in Back Bay which feels like it was designed by someone who hated the idea of people sitting while they wait for a train.
And lack of retail options. And access to leftover unassigned seats from everyone who got first choice access to seats because they got on at South Station.
loved the overview of the mbta cause it was comprehensive yet succinct. Hope you do septa next!
I really hope we get full electrification in the next decade, or the next two decades at the least. We're in sore need of it.
Time to fully electrify the MBTA rail system like SEPTA Regional Rail down here in Philly.
Same🙏
But SEPTA did not electrify the line them selfs it was mostly the PRR and the Reading Company
nice video thanks for sharing.😊😊👍👍
It is so frustrating that a rail link was not built alongside the big dig. We could’ve had every line run right through boston as it does in philly, but of course cArS hAvE tO tAkE pRiOriTy. If it was built though, here’s how I think the lines should be connected:
Fitchburg to Plymouth (the CENTER of Plymouth)
Lowell to Greenbush
Haverhill to Middleborough (via Anderson RTC and less frequent service down to New Bedford)
Lawrence to Franklin (via
Reading and Oak Grove)
Beverly to Providence (electrified of course with less frequent trips from Newburyport to Wickford)
Rockport to Worcester
Readville to Reading (via Blue Hill Ave, this would be the most frequent line)
Here are the lines that require extensions from existing lines:
Danvers to Fall River (via Salem, Back Bay, Stoughton, and Taunton)
Woburn to Needham (via Winchester, Back Bay, and Forest Hills, but if the OL is extended to Needham the Woburn Stub can be part of the Lowell Line)
and finally, a completely new ring line from Providence to Lowell, via Mansfield, Walpole, Framingham, and Ayer)
Feel free to make suggestions
the thing about electrification is that the mbta could electrify the providence line yesterday if they wanted. as you point out, there's already catenary lines going down to providence, but it's also worth mentioning that of the 21 trains that go to providence on weekdays, only 8 actually continue all the way to wickford junction, with the rest terminating in providence. that's 13 trains a day on weekdays, plus 10 more a day on weekends (none of the providence trains go to wickford on the weekend). all the mbta NEEDS to fully electrify their most used rail line is simply to buy some goddamn electric locomotives! $200m could get them 15 or so ACS's no problem, and they could even put in wires on the stoughton spur off the providence line--that's only four miles of track, and the mbta already owns it (any wires going up to wickford would need to be built by the state of rhode island, as the mbta's jurisdiction and ownership of the rails ends at state lines)
the thing about the north-south rail link is that it will never be built. the only time it was feasible was during the big dig, and at this point no one has any appetite for putting an even deeper tunnel under 93, or re-routing both north and south stations. and frankly, it's probably better that it wasn't built. aquarium station has been flooding the past few years during winter storms and particularly high tides, so the potential disruption to transit caused by flooding in the three major central stations, all now deeper underground than (i think) any other station in the country, is something i don't want to think about. honestly, an airport-style, end-to-end, no-fare subway running under congress street might be the best possibility at this point
This item brings back the long use of the self propelled "Bud cars".
Yes, that would be a great way to help reduce frequent T bus transferring & heavy traffic congestion (i.e. Allston VILL), respectively.
Beth Budner, Auburndale, MA!
The trick for getting from the Northeast Corridor to the Northern Lines is to get off in Back Bay and get on the Orange Line to North Station thus avoiding the possibility of having two connecting trains delayed. I’m always shocked MBTA doesn’t note that as an option even if it’s still not a very good one.
With Amtrak getting Airos, maybe the could give some ACS-64's for service on the NEC, and then purchase duel-modes for the rest of the south side within 10 years. Next would be minor upgrades and longer term electrification projects so the system is better prepared for a central tunnel because I'm sure there are upgrades they can do that are better for maintaining/improving existing service and longer term S-bahn style service
Amtrak should send some of the ACS 64s onto the MBTA fastest lines, and new charger locomotives should be sent on to the lower speed lines.
There are other improvements that the MBTA needs to make, too. They need at least one ring line for the commuter ra (maybe two), probably somewhere around 95 and a second somewhere around 495. It would also probably be helpful to have a ring subway line, especially if that subway line actually stopped at the airport (and didn’t need a shuttle to the terminals like the current blue line airport stop). They need to increase the number of trains scheduled to at least two an hour, all day, every day of the week (weekend schedules SUCK) to incentivize riders other than daily work commuters. They need to make all their stations, and the walkshed areas around the stations, accessible. They also need to upgrade the subway lines - new tunnels to get rid of sharp, slow turns and decrease the number of bottlenecks on the green line, better trains for accessibility (green line trains have to extend platforms for wheelchair users to board, it’s a process that slows everyone down and sometimes doesn’t even work), and higher frequency schedules. A good transit network should have multiple options, so I’d also advocate for some actual BRT lines (not the shared bus only lane that people ignore).
If you would want to providence line to be electrified you would need to put wires at the yard too
Not a difficult project and totally worthwhile, i dont understand why electrifying lines is made to seem so hard in North America
@@BigBlueMan118 because theyre cheapscake and they still sticking with diesel power due to how cheap and abundant it is
@@voidjavelin23yah I think it has to with how cheap gas is in the US. It makes a lot more sense to electrify things when gas is absurdly expensive. Additionally if you take France for example it becomes cleaner than gas because most of their power is clean nuclear energy. In the US a lot of it is still natural gas so the environmental savings are less.
For whatever it's worth, you wouldn't transfer at DTX to the Red line from the Orange, you would just take the Orange to Back Bay and hop on Amtrak there directly. That said, still sucks.
The MBTA has been working like gangbusters to expand the service to the South shore with new stations in Fall River and New Bedford. The South Coast Rail project is moving along great, and the service should be up and running by next Spring. It was a major, multi-year investment in the services. Test trains have begun running in the past month to calibrate the signals and crossings.
Secondly, back in the early 1900's there WAS a link between South and North stations. This is not a new concept and I recall some of the infrastructure is still there, just decommissioned and out of service. I recall that some of that tunneling is now part of the Green Line.
The Big Dig, of itself, was a financial disaster. I worked in Boston for the ONE engineering company that failed to secure any bid for the project. I do not recall any discussions about a related upgrade to the subway or rail infrastructure at that time beyond relocating lines if there was an impact. It may have been proposed, but it never materialized much beyond a speculation. Just prior to The Big Dig, the MBTA completed the major undertaking of the Northeast Corridor; relocating and consolidating the Amtrak, commuter rail and Orange Lines into one passage.
They have always had the funding to do what they felt was necessary to do, even under the worst State and Federal administrations.
On topic of dual mode units, Amtrak will probably be selling off its P32AC-DM units once Airofleets arrive, Metro North might do so even earlier. They're not much newer than the F40's, but they would be a cheap option for third rail operations.
As a lifelong Massachusetts resident and former state employee, basically the entire state is mismanaged. Nepotism and politics ruins everything. This is why Massachusetts is on the verge of a crisis, becoming one of the “most moved from” states in America by both residents and major businesses. For such a “progressive” state, it’s a disaster…
To get to Amtrak back bay station take the orange line to back bay station. And hop on board Amtrak.
Yeah...but...until seating about Amtrak Regional trains is assigned, its first come, first serve for seats. So at Back Bay you're getting access to leftover seats after everyone boards at South Station with first pick of unassigned seats. Plus South Station has a food court with more food options and a CVS for basic needs/updates.
Thank you, Sam, I think one other thing that needs to take place to electrify the Stoughton line, would be either upgrading or adding a better substation. I am not sure the current one can handle more capacity.
I'm a current MBTA employee and there are a lot of talk about getting electric locomotives but that won't be going into affect until after the south coast rail, the new extension from Boston to Springfield and possibly from Boston to New Haven
There are plans to build a new station called West Station that would include trains running on the Grand Junction RR. It is the rail line the T and Amtrak use to move equipment between the North and South stations.
One of the problems with the MBTA is that for the longest time it was the home of patronage. There used to be a joke that Senate President William Bulger had gotten people who paid him jobs working in the MBTA that it should be called Mister Bulger's Transit Authority.
The reason MASSDOT forced the MBTA to build new stations is that an environmental group had threatened the state with an injunction stopping the Big Dig unless there demands were met. Including in their demands were the building of new MBTA stations.
One big issue with the Commuter Rail is the fare price. Between parking charges of 5-8$ and tickets 20-25$ round trip and can get VERY expensive to ride regularly. Most people I know who have to go in more than 2 days a week prefer to drive to Malden, Alewife, or Braintree and take the subways from there, since the gas+subway is cheaper than the Commuter Rail fair. If they included parking with your train ticket it would be much more accessible for many.
This is also exasperated by Boston's economy. Typically wealthier residents live within the subway zones, and people who cannot afford to live in the city live in the surrounding suburbs aside from a few exceptions like Concord.
This is my exact issue. I actually take the orange line to back bay to catch the Amtrak.
Totally a legit option - hope you get a good seat choice from the leftover unassigned seats (unless you ride Acela - then scratch my comment).
Depends on the price of Acela if I can get a cheaper one. Luckily it seems lately that they are holding the first couple of cars for Back Bay after the Cafe Car.
@mrt32487 wow that's pretty thoughtful of team Amtrak
Simple solution to the north south rail link... Cut in a switch to reconnect the Grand Junction to South Station. The bridges there are supposed to be redone in the next few years, so this would be the time to do it. Rail wise it's just under 7 miles. Add a station at MIT and you can have another easy connection to Kendall/MIT, if not MIT and that neighborhood as a whole. Problem is that it seems quite a lot of politicians in that part of the state don't want to loose a campaign talking point that no one has delivered on for decades. And if you can reuse some of the existing trackwork near North Station? Well, no need for say Amtrak to pull into North Station to change direction to head north to Portland. It's not going to be fast. But given how poorly this state has actually been doing with major transit projects? Something absurdly simple might be the best bet. Far less of a chance they'll mess it up if they're mostly upgrading existing infrastructure.
It would be pretty epic if the Fairmount line ran from south station, and continued onto the Newburyport/Rockport line. With all the other lines continuing to North Station. I suppose that would be better if the North South rail link ever gets built/reaches capacity
? How would that work? You need north south rail link just for fairmount to connect to Newburyport Rockport…
The literal same thing happened to me when I was in Silver Spring, Maryland and I saw a Norfolk Southern - nine deadhead/helping Amtrak 30 also CSX release their seaboard coastline and pure Marquette market heritage units
The easiest method to get to Amtrak is by going on the orange line to Back Bay since most Amtrak trains leaving Boston go through Back Bay. The only exception is the Downeaster that departs from North Station.
Build a munich like s bahn and have a tunnel with stations using the spanish solution. Then slowly electrify the entire network.
SEPTA in Philedelphia did built a tunnel
@@markdebruyn1212 They sure did! th-cam.com/video/hTWEdhplQe8/w-d-xo.html&sttick=0
On May 23, 2024, the MBTA Board approved the first option of the original 220-car contract placed on hold in 2020 when it ordered 41 additional Rotem Blind Trailer Coaches for $203 million, with delivery to begin in mid-2026.
Also in the hypothetical example where someone lives in Salem and needs to get to a train to New York… I’ve done this several times bc I live near Salem. You can take the Orange Line from North Station directly to Back Bay which is also an Amtrak stop for Acela, NE Regional, and many of the Commuter lines from S. Station. Again, obviously there should be a direct N-S connection so that it’s one system but please put in some sort of disclaimer that there is the ability to do a 1 seat ride to transfer from N. Station to all NEC trains without having to make 2 transfers or get all the way to S. Station
That is two Transfers though, one to the orange Line and another to Amtrak?
@@BigBlueMan118 I guess it depends how you look at it. Obviously the commuter train isn’t going to go to NYC so you have to change to the Amtrak train. This is just 1 subway transfer
@@kyrieelite right but for example I currently live in Dresden, Germany. When I go to Berlin, because our commuter rail (S-Bahn) system has through-running from the South to the North across both sides of our River and our two main stations are linked the way Boston should be, I get the S-Bahn from my local station to either one of our main stations North or South, then hop off and get on my Intercity (Amtrak) to Berlin. So that is only one change.
US cities because they tend not to run the commuter rail Network through from one side of the City to the other lose a lot of potential improvements, advantages and efficiencies, I can link you to a good article by an expert in the subject if you like?
@@BigBlueMan118Yes I would like to read it. Also there is a city in Germany which is building a second central S-Bahn tunnel because through running the entire network through it causes a ton of delays, I forget which city this is? But yes I very much want the ability to do through running and advocate for it
@@kyrieelite Munich - it is a victim of its own success, they run trains every 2 minutes with long trains and platforms on both sides of the train at most Stations but the system was never designed to handle that much traffic from so many branches, Back when it was built the system handled like half the current passengers.
I agree with most of this. However, it’s not imperative that the MBTA switch to double decker cars. There is less demand post-COVID and double deckers have longer boarding times which slow trips down. If capacity is a concern, then they can run more trains and also induce demand in the process.
However, because the MBTA already has an order ready to go for double deckers and a new railcar order would take lots of time to get, I support your proposal of signing off on those new cars.
What is not mentioned in the "trip" from Salem to New York, at the beginning of the video, is that the change from the Orange Line to the Red Line at Downtown Crossing is a long walk, not a simple change of platform. Doing this with baggage would be a true hassle.
Not really tbh. If you pick the right car, it's significantly less than the walk from the red line to the main South Station Concourse. Additionally, riders can just take the orange line to Back Bay and board Amtrak from there.
Always thought it was a huge blunder NOT to put in the N-S link. And instead they spent $$ on building the Silver Line!? Certainly would have been better 'bang-for-the-buck' with N-S linkage.
I think if they fix the pollution issue at backbay they don’t need to build a north south connector. Other than a few lines that you didn’t electrify that go towards Quincy, all the other lines and Amtrak are well served through Backbay.
If they do build a north south connector. It should also assist or improvements to the silver line, possibly replacing the buses.
What’s the benefit of “partial” electrification here, especially to the destinations that you defined? They seem chosen at random, where logistics make electrification of some of those lines (namely Franklin after Norwood central) more difficult/expensive. Furthermore, doesn’t the entire environmental argument rely on full electrification?
The ability to not have to find the capital for full electrification to get any electrification done
A brief look at Amtrak's offerings online shows that they offer departures from both Back Bay Station and South Station on both the Northeast Regional and Acela Express trains. So if you were coming from North Station, you wouldn't want to change to the Red Line to go to South Station, but instead take the Orange Line all the way to Back Bay, or if the Orange Line is busted (which it often is), take the Green Line to Copley and then walk a few blocks to Back Bay (unless the weather is bad -- in that case, if the Orange Line is busted, _then_ you would want to change to the Red Line and go to South Station). Of course, it would be better to have the proposed North-South rail link, but at least passengers aren't completely hosed for options to go between the north and south systems with things as they are.
As for electrification and funding, these would be really good, but in addition the whole management and culture of the MBTA needs to be changed -- the MBTA's main specialty is coming up with excuses why things cannot be done, even including such incremental ideas as getting dual-mode locomotives like those proven to work in New Jersey.
As for what they are actually doing, changing from single-level to bilevel coaches, while having some merit for saving on station platform length for a given capacity, is not an unmitigated improvement. Single-level coaches are much easier to load and unload at high-level platforms, especially for people for whom stairs are a barrier; at low-level platforms, both types of coaches are hard to load and unload (since the bilevel coaches that the MBTA has do not have low-level doors (meaning you have to go up stairs and then back down again if you are riding on the lower level). If you have the room to extend station platforms, it would be better to do this and stick with single-level coaches for faster loading and unloading.
The GP40s aren’t exactly falling apart, but I do believe deferred maintenance has certainly caused them to be less reliable. EMD’s gp units were very popular because they were very reliable
Think electrification of the Fairmount Line should be a priority with catenary. For the neighborhoods and as redundancy and resiliency for the Northeast Corridor
It might just be my enthusiasm for UK rolling stock, but I think it would be cool to see British Rail class 440 "Desiro" trains or the British Rail class 800s in MBTA livery for their southeastern corridor to Plymouth or Wareham stations.
Good well researched video. Has the MBTA patched it's relationship with Hyundai Rotem? If you ride the Hudson River line, you see a lot of MBTA double Deckers at Kawasaki in Yonkers.
The issue with Rhode Island is that the MBTA’s jurisdiction ends at the border; Rhode Island has RIPTA, which the MBTA merely operates trains for.
Electrification is VERY expensive and it does not reduce train operating expenses. you need to consider the trade offs, more lines and more frequent service vs electrification. Most commuter lines can't go much faster due to close station spacing, most of the slow acceleration problems relate to head end hp and gearing, passenger locomotives are generally geared to be faster intercity service with long station spacing and higher top speeds using four axle locomotives, freight locomotives are geared for pulling with lower top speeds generally using six axle locomotives, this is exactly what commuter rail needs. As for pollution issues, most electricity is generated by burning coal in thermal plants, way dirtier than modern diesels. A lot of commuter lines are stuck with older locomotives, often retired from intercity service with millions of miles of wear on them, just like city garbage trucks and busses, they're old.
Amtrak serves Back Bay but it doesn't have the proper waiting areas and shops of a major intercity rail station. And like you mentioned the pollution exposure from being outside. Amtrak would benefit from having the Downeaster connected into the network
I read somewhere that they didn't want to electrify because they felt Amtrak was charging them too much.
Look at the map -
One issue everyone complains about is that the whole system radiates around Boston.
They need to make connections between towns outside of Boston to make it more useful to suburbanites.
THIS!
Your commentary about transit not making money is spot-on! When transit funding is in the hands of politicians it seems that systemic harmony and working to overcome challenges collaboratively are antiethical to politicans' sense of self-interest - with too few exceptions in the past 70 years.
You need to do some reuses. Very easy to connect to Amtrak from lines into North Station. Just take the Orange line to Back Bay. ALL Amtrak trains stop there!!
Amtrak trains from Maine directly to NYP and WAS ❤
Great video! Boston has an amazing existing network that with the right upgrades could be world-class. Hope to see improvements soon. Imagine the progress that could be made if someone like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos decided to throw a few billion at the MBTA. They could each drop 10 billion without even feeling it.
Something to keep in mind. F40 and GP40's use EMD 645 engines, which have PLENTY of parts available. They are still more reliable than most tier 4 engines. I think MBTA and METRA are the only 2 commuter railroads to have figured this out. There's a reason these companies keep looking for EMD's.
An important note about the Big Dig debt is that it's not like debt from the project was transferred to the MBTA, rather the MBTA agreed to expansions as part of the deal for the Big Dig, and because they have insufficient and inconsistent funding they have struggled to pay it off.
Hopefully Rich Davey will do Good work for you guys.
He's going to the Port
I didn't read all the comments, but I am not sure how partial electrification is feasable on a route. IE the Worcester line only electrified to Framingham. You would still need diesels to go the last 20 miles. Just do the entire line at once.
7:14 you're absolutely right. Battery trains won't do the T any favors
Some lines should be linked to the subway network. Like extending the orange line both ways and the red line too. Red line should replace the green bush line and former Bedford line
Philadelphia's commuter rail system & agency, SEPTA, suffers from many of the same neglect, underfunding, mismanagement, & corruption issues as MBTA. The one bright spot was that Philly DID complete their "Downtown Rail Link", joining up the old Pennsy & Reading systems into one unified system. The downside was, the long tunnel required all trains to be electrified, so when the new system debuted in the early 1980's, all the existing longer less traffic-ed diesel lines were eliminated. None of them have ever been brought back, altho there's been talk about the Reading line being electrified. Philly has other big problems with their subway / heavy rail system & the hodge podge of leftover old trolley lines aka light rail that are taking up funding priorities. Extending the Broad Street Line up Roosevelt Blvd should be a no brainer but the cheapskates are talking light rail or busway. Don't make the same mistake New York did w/the Brooklyn connector.
so nice!
I've always thought an orbital line should run on the tracks that go from Providence - Worcester - Ayer - Lowell - Lawrence. the tracks are there but they would just need to negotiate with the freight companies
Can you do Modernizing the VRE video?
Man, do they need it!
Imagine the Modernizing the Metra Video
@@maas1208 All of Metra shall be the Electric District.
@@maas1208 🤌🤌🚆
I’ve wondered if the MBTA might pick up some of the ACS64’s when Amtrak replaces them. They will have plenty of life left in them most likely. Hopefully either the MBTA or MARC because running diesels under the wires is nuts.
With the success of the South Shore Line, you would think more local government would invest in passenger rail infrastructure.
Do you know about the Peidmont service in NC? It’s a really reliable service. We use F59PH and PHI locomotives and refurbished Pullman standard coaches. Even though the coaches were built in the 60s, they run flawlessly. It goes to show that not everything that’s old is trash. However NCDOT is planning on buying Siemens trains to replace the old stuff in the future
Excellent video
If the MBTA fully electrifies the province line, they could buy some of the ACS-64s that Amtrak will be selling off. This would keep costs down during the initial stages, while they prove their viability to sceptics.
I agree that nothing battery powered should be considered. But with electrifying, it’s all or nothing. Electrify a line or don’t. That halfway is rife for all kinds of operational problems.
The Fairmount Line needs to be a top priority and the first to receive EMU’s. While I don’t think five abreast multilevel cars should be the backbone, since high level platforms aren’t even widespread yet, I’d go along with it, but it would be the last unpowered order I’d make. EMU’s would have much better acceleration and deceleration, which is important if you ever have plans on increasing service from hourly to half h hourly, or ideally every 15-20 minutes per line.
As well as better mobility, better traffic, and a cleaner environment, rapid transit lines often increase land value as well. 3:37
a good (i think) idea would be getting dual mode locomotives! (didnt see the full video, silly me!)
I mean, technically you could go from North Station to back Bay and you would not have to take the redline at all to south station