In short, no - not a fan. I work intervals into almost every ride. Some more than others. Stopped with that nonsense a few years ago and have never been faster.
Yes, because I'm able to get on the bike (indoor or outdoors) more often without getting sick and as a result I'm on stronger on specific targeted rides. I found that stressing the heart and the immune system too often was a recipe for longer periods of rest through sickness. Of course I would have higher intensity training but once or 2 twice per week.
Not at all! Learned to listen to my body. I push just a little over threshold with each interval, recover for a bit then smash another one out. Having a lot of fun with that!
Olav kept reinforcing a point that is the problem of all competitive people - "don't go bonkers (over exertion)". When we are feeling good in our training regiment, we want to push ourselves to the limit. The wear and tare this has on the body demands a lot of recovery, opens us up for injury and keeps the body in a repair state instead of a build state. I fought this tendency to max out until I had an injury serious enough to teach me otherwise. I really liked the whole conversation and it all hit home for me.
Consistent training and consistently doing the same variation of training (focused to your own goals/targets ) is going to help but you have to be disciplined with yourself and look at the long game and not the 'smash it up' effort in a busy plan when you've got a longer effort/ride the next day - you'll be feeling it for the majority .. We've all done it :D i have..
@@DanCave oh yes we all have done it😂. Most dangerous is tapering out of a training plan close to a competition. You feel Soo good. My last competition I completely shot myself by way overdoing my last 2 runs. Happens so easy.
Information light discussion. 30 minutes to say: 1. Consistency over the long term is good 2. Alternate easy and hard days 3. Don't dig yourself into a hole by overdoing.
Thank you. I think there was some more subtle discussion regarding the Efficiency of mitochondria over central cardiovascular system, but that kind of went over my head.
In Norway you learn this when you’re ten and start cycling, cross country skiing or running. Do one session of intervals (zone 3-5) a week and the rest of sessions is zone 1-2. Also best recovery is sleeping enough. Unless you’re aiming for pro your training plan doesn’t need to be more advanced than this for the average Joe with family, work and the occasional grand fondo. I tried many of these workouts plans of different apps like Zwift, but most of them drains you in a few weeks because the load is too high when you have a normal lifestyle.
@@gcn Use available time. I drive my son to soccer practice. All the other parents sit in their cars and watch and wait. I go to the gym next to the soccer field. I got 83 sessions last year at the gym by doing this. If you don’t want to be far away from home if the kids are old enough to be alone for a little while, do laps in the neighborhood. Running, walking, cycling to work is also “free” zone 2 time.
@@gcn Walking is also kind of a national thing in Norway. We walk all the time. I take the buss to work, but jump off the bus two stops before work and walk the rest. Same after work. This gives me 30 minutes of walking each day that I don’t even notice.
I have seen people on social media following zwift fitness plans and do 8-12 weeks of training with an FTP test at the end and they only gain 10-15watts. I belive that their gains are stunted because of a number of factors. I am coaching two guys in their mid/late sixties who've been gaining ~10-15 watts a month with consistent training over six months - doing zone 2/3 training in the majority with zone 4 threshold efforts. People who ride a bike and want to train should do so with specific training and not 'do stuff cos zwift says so' without realising what each targetted training gives them.
The ridiculous clickbait title seems a disservice to Si’s excellent interview and GCN’s otherwise high standards. It would also appear to be rather insulting to your guest. He categorically does NOT say that zone 2 is a waste of time but provides a high level of nuance.
“Ridiculous clickbait title” is a little overkill, don’t you think? Olav says in the video that he thinks there is some merit to training in zone 2 but staying only in that training zone will cause you to hit a ceiling. Which would go against the common notion that only training in zone 2 is the best type of training to increase your base and overall fitness level; So the title of the video is actually pretty spot-on, he does find zone 2 overrated, to an extent.
@@grantedwards9021 Yep, I agree. The initial objection was stated as zone 2 'is a waste of time'. But that's not what the title says, unless it's been changed.
Great interview. He basically reaffirms that zone 2 does work...when combined with harder intensity training. There's nothing new here. Im sticking to my 80/20 training.
@@gcn I don't believe he was saying that. I took from it that you need progressive overload....... kJ's burned per week/month need to increase or you stagnate (hit the ceiling). And, that Z2 only training will get you so far, you need to add in high/medium intensity if you want to keep progressing esp if time crunched. What he didn't say but is really saying is, you can't recover from doing high/medium intensity training everyday, so the fillers/alternate days should be Z1/Z2 (of 5 zone/7 zone model(s))
This all sounds like scientific support for Eddie Merckx's training suggestion: "Ride a lot, sometimes ride hard". It all makes total sense. I'm glad this research has been done. Thanks for the great video!
"Zone 2 is a waste of time" in quotation marks, meaning he spoke those words. Anyone have the timestamp where he said it? I can't find him saying anything remotely like that. I see him saying Zone 2 is "very effective" at 28:00.
Yes, lie and clikbait. It is a shame, and I hope more people react to this sort of lie. It better not be accepted or more producers will use such shit for getting attention.
He didn't say waste of time but you might be able to do something even better with your training. Which would be the alternation of lower intensity paired with high intensity.
I love the format as opposed to just chunks of info taken from an interview. I even listen to Adams loooong posts on zero friction cycling. Great work. Also, it's very helpful to get other descriptions or points of view. He speaks of nuance...he does a great job of pointing out nuances of training....great and helpful to me.
If you did enjoy his perspective, Olav has a podcast called the Norwegian Method where he goes into fine detail on many aspects of elite endurance sports.
The thumbnail and the title are 100% clickbait! Obviously, nobody ever said «Replace all your training with Z2 ». You don’t need to be a Norwegian to know it wouldn’t be efficient 😂 Still, the video is very informative, and I appreciate seeing a different take on Zone 2 training and hearing different way of thoughts on the topic!
Si, I am sorry, I love you guys! But the title is literally “zone 2 is waste of time”, not even “Is zone 2 a waste of time?”. And yes, I have watched it and even his opinion is (simplified) “Mondays and Wednesdays zone 2”. As in everything, moderation and variety. I also was intrigued by the mitochondrial function not being the limiting factor, as well. I understand your business and the fact that probably the title choice is not dependent on the presenters.
Ditto! But keep in mind that this channel is not just a few guys getting together to make content for TH-cam. It's a corporation that has to meet payroll obligations. And these video presenters need to generate click the same way Fox Media, CNN, MSNBS, etc need to generate clicks. Clickbaiting is the standard norm. The sad thing about cycling channels is that there is only just so much that can be talked about. Have you guys noticed how many repeat topics GNC has been generating? It probably won't last another 2 years. That's my guess.
Well, we've been going 11 years, hopefully we'll last a couple more! Sorry you think that this is clickbait, personally I disagree. I also think if you look back through recent videos you'll see a complete absence of clickbait in other titles too.
I love every interview I get to watch with Olav. To see how he thinks about the approach is amazing and eye-opening. Thanks so much, top-notch content.
Really enjoyed this. Apart from the science and the quality of the conversation I was struck forcefully once again at how well and with what an extensive vocabulary Olav communicates in a second language . In the English speaking world we take this for granted so much of the time
No-one ever said only Zone 2 training except GCN, in my opinion. Human nature makes most of us tend to do 0% Zone 2 because it doesn’t feel like it is doing anything. It’s a revelation that Zone 2 is actually really important part of training. 80-85% of training time should be in Zone 2, which is extremely hard to do! Most of us do way too much training in our hard zones!
Yes,even Iñigo San Millan says it's not enough to do just zone 2, you have to do the high intensity training too, just that it's really important to do a lot of continuous zone 2 in your training.
If Zone 2 feels like you aren't doing anything, then you are probably in Zone 1. I watched a video of Peter Attia doing a demonstration of a Zone 2 ride, and clearly he is feeling something.
@@bobp5523 I think it's a matter of categorizing perception? Zone 2 feels like you're doing something. Zone 2 doesn't feel like you're pushing, and in most people's minds that means it doesn't feel like you're training or working out. I think it's a shame that people only tend to think of working out as something that's hard, because there's a lot you can do comfortably that will still make you more fit. Zone 2 is done at a level where you really feel like you're just kind of muddling about not doing /much/ and the only reason that feels rewarding to me is because I know it will let me do more sooner, rather than breaking me down and ruining my training tomorrow or making the level of exertion I'm shooting for feel miserable. Feeling miserable is a valid thing to do when you're actively training for competition and something you'll need to get used to if that's your goal, but even then all of your training and working out should not feel miserable, cause that's an easy way to lose motivation.... that said, probably a big part of the reason z2 is so popular is that it /doesn't/ feel miserable, and if you feel miserable you're definitely doing it wrong. Thing is, in a lot of people's minds feeling miserable is what training means. I think that's why people say "zone 2 doesn't feel like you're doing anything": because it doesn't feel punishing, and "doing something" in regards to training is expected to feel punishing for a lot of people.
Yes but he makes it sound crucial and stresses the mitochondrial adaptations while Olav downplays it and says that for many cardiovascular improvement and adaptation are more important. Something along those lines. Also for example he suggest going into zone 3 is even better just if you can recover well. So all in all he downplays importance of zone 2 to a certain level.
Love this kind of content. It's the stuff you could read about in the magazines before they become all biased "buy this stuff" content to be able to survive. Learning about the latest training research and hear from up-to-date caches is not a bad way to get your training going.
Fascinating interview! Love the nuancing! Love these Science Si deep dive interviews! Great content. Unfortunate title. Both Inigo and Olav are riveting and right. What I love about Olav's take about recovery/sleep and LISTENING TO YOUR BODY! This is particularly
Of course this Super Coach is correct. The concept is diminishing return. Optimizing mitochondria function is only one element in the performance equation. Zone 2 isn't a be all or panacea to training. It is only developing a baseline. Dr. Peter Attia has a superb youtube short on the subject and talks about area under the triangle. Zone 2 is the width of the base of the triangle. Peak height to an isosceles triangle is V02 max. A short peak to the triangle aka low V02 max does not optimize performance. Can't optimize V02 max which is critical to optimizing road racing without HIIT to improve power and strength. Biggest mistake riders make that the Norwegian super coach stated, is riding too hard too often. We have all made this mistake. A variety of Zone 2 with specific HIIT to optimize V02 max is required to maximize the area inside the triangle for best road racing performance. Thanks for the video Si and thanks to the coach for sharing his expertise. PS. unrelatedly, I have some Norwegian genes as an American. 🙂
I usually think of Zone 2 training as workouts designed to repair damaged mitochondria. Usually the damage comes from consuming too much sugar and other carbs without enough fat so the mitochondria cannot remember how to switch back and forth burning carbs and fat at will. After the mitochondria are flexible and dense and higher intensity training is necessary to increase VO2 max, there is a need for some slow recovery rides. Some might call them Zone 2 training. But I don't. I don't really consider recovery workouts to be training. To me they are more like medication.
Peter Attila’s stuff is superb. HIIT offers massive benefit. While people get wrapped around the axle on the peak intervals, the actual average heart rate during an escalating HIIT routine is pretty much in Zone 3. The muscular loads, however, are quite high. Since heart rate lags behind muscular load until the onset of cardiac drift due to a rise in core temperature, the muscles end up getting a phenomenal workout from HIIT.
Did he really say zone 2 is "overrated" ? Because i listened to all of that and he definitely didn't say its overrated... All he does is keep referring back to "tour de france sprinters" and true "track sprinters" Basically the top 0.01% and DOES not apply to 99.9% of age groupers, weekend warriors etc. But hey, whatever gets the clicks. And i am pretty sure NO training program prescribes ONLY zone 2 training?
He actually agrees with Indigo San Millan. San Millan says also about himself he finishes his zone 2 workouts with zone 5 or zone 6 work (as a very time crunched rider). And of course your training must have a complete picture of several intensity zones.
Great video. I guess variety is the spice of life, plus leave a little in the tank so you can be consistent and improve. Interesting side note. I was listening to part of an interview Victor Vincente the other day, and he said he basically followed the training formula of Bob Tetzlaff (1960 US Olympian), which was ride hard on Tuesday, Thursday, and then race on Sunday. Take it easy Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. So, Olav was absolutely right about similar ideas being around for decades ;)
Thanks for this interview! It's been about a year since I started to deep dive into training properly. Olav stated what I understood from reading different studies, mix & match of different training is always the best approach. Training to exhaustion could be done when training for a specific purpose and limited time (e.g. gym session for muscular hypertrophy) but in the long run isn't sustainable nor advantageous. Btw the norwegian method is a strict pyramide training, so most of the training session are in Z2.
@@gcn Yep, unless it's just after the off-season, where I'll only go hard once every couple of weeks for one session out of every 10-12 in favor of volume/fun.
@gcnm please keep on with content like this. Keep them coming. The quality of this channel keeps improving. It's a pleasure to watch you and to learn from you. I just love it 🙏!
No one has ever suggested to train 100% in Zone 2. None of this is new. In the "70's we trained by perceived effort and breathing. Spend 80% at a talking pace, 20% at higher levels. When I train on my own, I am in Zone 2 on the flats, Zone 3 on climbs. I do one or two group rides each week with younger and faster people. I am in Zones 3, 4 and 5 to keep up and the efforts come as needed rather than a certain number of minutes on or off. There isn't anything new here.
That's an interesting point! Did you catch Si talking to Nick Craig about how he stays so fit as on older racer 👉th-cam.com/video/GCfqgnfoVWY/w-d-xo.html
Zone 2 is something else. Your zone 2 isn't zone 2. Every time you get into zone 3 you lose everything you did in zone 2. Please have a look at the older GCN videos with San Millan.
@@orbifold4387 did he mention it takes something like 20 minutes for your body to get back into zone2 . Which is why he likes to add on a hiit session at the end of his zone 2 sessions
@@orbifold4387 'Every time you get into zone 3 you lose everything you did in zone 2. ' That's overstating the case. you don't lose the stimuli it just takes a while (
I still have training bible from 1990’s when I was racing. It’s all gone full circle, 80% of your training volume Z2, 20% 3/4, always end feeling you could go more. No Z5 in training sessions, race day is the max effort. Alternate training sessions and taper down to race day. Olaf’s great information on what is limiting performance, it’s not the mitochondria efficiency but heart and lungs.
If you are trained to win, then race day is usually not your max effort unless you are participating in a time trial against the clock. It's when you do those Zone 5 training sessions that you are maxing out.
Sounds a lot like Jack Daniels' (running coach, not liquor) bible. Stairstep training load for ~6week periods, using fitness test (best is a time trial race) following the 6-week constant load period (with pre-race taper for a few days) as indicator of what the new training load should be. Try to stay in the sweet spot of enough new training impulse to give a significant adaptation, but not enough that you burn out or get injured (injury being a much bigger concern for runners). Hard workouts straddled on either side of your target race duration (e.g. FTP duration vs. VO2max duration) to alternately "raise the ceiling" and "lift the base," converging closer to race duration as the event nears.
My take is that mitochondria can take up huge amounts of oxygen. If you are not fit enough to provide them with the oxygen, having more mitochondria won’t be of much benefit. If you are very fit from a cardiovascular/pulmonary standpoint then increasing mitochondrial function might help.
No. The mitochondria are the weak link in most people fitness or lack of fitness. Poor diet is the primary cause for mitochondria becoming dysfunctional. And dysfunctional mitochondria is the key reason older guys who like to ride a bike complain about getting old. They think their body is just wearing out. It's not really the body as a whole usually. It is dysfunctional mitochondria. Other conditions related to this are: metabolic syndrome, pre-diabetes, diabetes, insulin resistance, clogged arteries, fatty liver disease, stroke, heart attacks, and cancer. Fix your mitochondria and so many things in your life should improve.
@@monstro8171 I hear you. It sucks getting old. And when we get old who wants to race? Not me. But I like to know that I can still go fast when I want to. It's true that the body wears out over time. But just like a car if well maintained it will not wear out quickly. Most people as they age do not do a good job of maintaining themselves. And the mitochondria are the first things to go. And they affect everything else. The one thing you cannot fix as you age is how fast you will recover after a stressful workout. But you can fix your mitochondria.
Yes title a bit misleading but quality video…I’d urge people to ignore title and watch! Loads of good advice and insights from a guy who knows his stuff!
In a nutshell, the mitochondria are integral to athletic performance. They need to be flexible meaning they need to be able to switch back and forth between carb fuels and fat fuels. And they need to be dense meaning they are not skinny runts but instead are big and bulky capable of producing lots of power. If the mitochondria are dysfunctional (inflexible) and rely primarily on carb fuels, then this is when Zone 2 training is most beneficial and not a waste of time. Zone 2 allows for mitophagy to eliminate the damaged mitochondria and regrow new skinny runts of mitochondria. When there are no more inflexible mitochondria to replace (usually after 6 months of training), then Zone 2 training loses its importance. Zones 4 and 5 training are important when it comes to making skinny runt mitochondria into robust and dense mitochondria. And when the athlete has healthy dense mitochondria (usually after 3 or 4 months of training), then the real training comes into play. The body now has the tools it needs to push itself to higher levels of performance.
I must say that zone 2 definitely works because I focused on it almost exclusively during the off season and now even 30 lbs heavier I’m breaking PR’s this year without even trying. Lol
@@ninjaxd9050 I’m not sure but even my uphill times are on par or better and I’ve only barely begun putting in the road miles this year. It’s quite shocking actually. It will be interesting to see what may be lost in performance as the weight starts shedding if the wrong weight is lost. Lol
@@neoneherefrom5836 It all depends on how healthy you mitochondria are. If they were really sick when you started, then Zone 2 will make a big difference in your performance. If they were healthy at the outset, then not so much.
@@neoneherefrom5836 The way to see if your mitochondria are inflexible (unhealthy) is to have a high carb meal not too much before you start a 4 or 5 hour Zone 2 bike ride. Could you make it through the entire ride without eating anything while not feeling ravenous? If not, then your body was unable to tap on stored body fat for energy. Classic case of dysfunctional mitochondria. Typically the longer the ride then the lower the intensity. Most weekend warrior cyclists I know love cafe stops along the way on their Saturday morning rides. I think they think it's a social thing that they must have a cafe stop (convenience store stop). But in reality it's an addiction thing. They have dysfunctional mitochondria and after riding 30 or 35 miles they have run out of glycogen/sugar to burn for energy. But there is too much insulin in their blood and thus they cannot burn stored body fat for energy. So they feel like they are starving. They need a fix of sugar. They go to the candy aisle or pastry aisle at the convenience store and load up on sugar to get them back to their cars or home.
Great interview and discussion. All coaches, Inigo included, know that we need to train all systems. Zone 2 really develops the aerobic system with minimal muscular catabolic damage, but we need to train the other zones in order to the demands each rider needs. Keep up the great work Si and GCN.
So basically he’s saying that 100% zone 2 will limit development and that a balance is required, like 80:20 ratio of low to high intensity. Which is literally what everyone says.
It depends on your goals. He's training people to win the most competitive professional racers. For that group, training zone 2 only isn't going to cut it. He's trying his clients to excel at the limits of performance! So his clients need to train at much higher levels effort to build their VO2max.
That's an interesting point! For must of us it's just about getting consistency. What did you make of Olav's points around 68 hours? Sweet spot might be the training best fitting for most people.
When I was a kid in my teens and took up the sport of bicycle racing I would do 900 miles of Zone 2 training on a fixed gear track bike to "get fit" so I could train to win for the rest of the season. Usually this riding was done in late February and early March. But after two years of racing my fitness never dropped enough over the winters to justify doing the Zone 2 training any longer. The coach being interviewed in this video is coaching athletes that never let their fitness level drop to a point where Zone 2 is needed any longer. They need recover rides. Sure. But recovery rides are not training. So they are not Zone 2.
@@jlippin123where do you have evidence of mitophagy and fasted training? There is some evidence of fasting helping with mitophagy but I don't know of any benefits to fasted training. Also...he literally talks about them(top of the sport) doing zone 2 riding.
That is the benefit of zone 2, it allows more hours to develop your CV system which takes the longest, whilst recovering and not battering your CNS so you can then go hard when you need to. Do not go hard by RPE, you need the snap and oomph that zone 2 training gives you.
So basically he doesn't disagree. He is talking about high high performance where 99.99% is cycling population is not. Basically, zone 2 still valid, specially for amateur like the rest of us. The 80/20 or 90/10 still valid.
For most people it'll be about getting consistency and milage under the belt 🙌 That said, it was interesting to hear that sweet spot trainning might be the route to go down 🤔
@@gcn I have to disagree a little bit. I know so many cyclists and runners and most of them get enough volume and miles. The intensity on the other hand is often lacking.
I think the physiological indicator needed to assess energy levels and readiness for training is heart rate variability. It's a good way of tracking past training and assessing how hard the training today and tomorrow should be. Interestingly, you can also use it to assess the degree to which chronic diseases are an issue.
So intersting. I now feel better with myself knowing he only change of plans you should do is doing less. This is something I started to do his year, and as I am training for ultraendurance it sometimes feel counterproductive to do less. Thanks Olav an SI!
I've NEVER heard any reputable coach or cyclist say that the best way to train is to use only zone 2. Polarized training uses three zones, and they structure it so that you're doing 80% of your training in zone 1 (endurance), and 20% doing HIIT. So if I train 5 days per week, I do 3 long rides in zone 1, and 2 rides where I hammer intervals. I've found over many years that this type of training not only makes me faster, but I don't get burned out because I'm not going full gas every time I get on my bike like a lot of cyclists do.
I don't think the 80% is supposed to be done in Zone 1. Probably somewhere between Zone 2 and Zone 3 is ideal if you are doing Polarized Training. And it's fine to switch back and forth between Zone 2 and Zone 3 during the 80%. All the switching back and forth means the rider is not doing True Zone 2 (TZ2). TZ2 requires the rider to burn fat for fuel EXCLUSIVELY. You go in and out of Zone 3 and you cannot be doing TZ2.
@@jlippin123 I would suggest you read up on polarized training. You don't want to touch zone 2 or 3 for 80-90% of your training. As a matter of fact, if you go from zone 1 to zone 2, even for a minute, it takes at least 20 minutes to reset yourself to zone 1. Zone 2 is sweet spot, and you shouldn't be doing much at all in that zone. Zone 3 is VO2, and you want to hit that once or twice a week depending on how many hours/days you're training. Zone 3 is strictly for hitting high intensity intervals. Polarized literally means two poles. Zone 1 and zone 3. No mixing them up (unless you're doing intervals of course, because you want to ride easy between intervals). It would seem to me from your comment that you need to research this training method. I've been doing it for years and I assure you it works extremely well.
@@jlippin123 Polarized training only uses 3 zones. Hence why you're not understanding what I had originally posted. Look it up, it's a fantastic way to train.
What a pleasure to listen to, and both allowed to speak and frame output. Very informative and framing the cumulative impact. I wonder if the coach also monitors HRV and that this directs session zone.
'Zone 2 training may be over hyped but it is THE basis of fitness and metabolic health. What is over done is Zone 3 - black hole traing. And what is under done is Zone 4. But really if I'm going to ride 10 hours a week, I am not going to do zone 4 or HITT most of that time... but Zone 2. Thanks.
Hypothetical question: If recovery would'nt be a problem (you are 100% recovered every morning), how would you train? Would you still train more zone 2 than zone 5?
Nah prolly zone 5 and 4, cuz point of zone 2 as i understand is that it maximises adaptations with respect to recovery. Obviously if you train harder (lets say threshold) there will be more adaptations but the recovery would be much much longer. If that isnt a problem (which is in real life impossible) then sure do threshold and sprint everyday 😅
If your mitochondria are healthy and recovery is not an issue, then pedal to the metal is how you improve your performance. Zone 2 is just for getting your mitochondria back in a functioning state.
NO. Zone 2 is not for recovery alone, although I see how you might think that after this brief video. Zone 1 is really pure recovery, albeit it does teach your body to burn more fat as fuel. But Zone 2 is an aerobic training zone. It trains a particular and foundational aspect of your cardiovascular system. You STILL need to achieve a “training effect” with Zone 2, which is what he explained when talking about hitting the ceiling. The way you get that training effect in Zone 2 is TIME. Only time, that is, systematically building more of it. So if you do Zone 2 for, say, 5 hours per week for many weeks, at some point you are not achieving a Z2 training effect anymore, for example, more and better mitochondria. Do threshold and sprint every day and you are sacrificing the very foundation of your training, which is why people call it “pyramid” training with Z2 at the bottom. So my answer is not only no, but heck no! Z2 IS TRAINING. But you need to increase (I prefer in a periodized way) your Z2 time to achieve increasing endurance benefits that are the foundation for threshold and VO2 fitness. 😊
What I take with me from this video, (listen to many interviews with Olav) was that it’s not just ok it is right to skip one or two intervals if you see your numbers are not keeping up. Many of us want so much do the “homework “ and it will lead to overloading the body to much. Now I coach myself, and I been there to not be able to do the work. When I had my coach, he was really good to balance my training. I also liked that he said that it takes years to build up one body. That’s why I can’t just copy my training from last year exactly. I’m not in the same square. Always little different situation. Thank you for this video //Marie-Louise 🇸🇪
Jeff from Athlean X prescribes this: 1. Zone 2 5 days a week with different activity 2. Zone 3.5 once a week 3. Zone 5 once a week I've been doing this and it's improved my fitness.
@@gcn I may want to include more explosive but the zone 5 ride is short and sweet, around 50-60kms. 100kms+ rides are almost always zone 2. Overall resting HR is 50-55 daily with waking HR at 43-49. Avg HR for rides anywhere between 120-149. I find nasal breathing works from 110-133, so that's where I stay, even when climbing. Rarely hit zone 4 and recovery down to Zone 2 is quick in Zone 3. Even then I'm in 3-4 most of the time with bursts of Zone 5. No need to kill yourself for fitness :) I'd say for sprints save those for harder days.
Loved this interview! I had no idea about zone training a month ago, and even though I've been adding zone 2 training to my schedule, I was never under the illusion that I could avoid high intensity for stretching my capacity, specially for climbing. And I've always heard that if you do the same thing over and over, regardless of the sport, you get diminishing returns, so it seems that variety is really the answer to most efficient training.
I love the state of the pro sports economy. A guy like this has a new partnership with whatever company and that’s reason enough to go on shows and podcasts and talk training science for hours for free . Legend
I'm a seasonal racer/ Time Trail. I usually do intervals on the trainer. It has been my training for a long tine. In October last year I decided to stop my interval training and did mostly long miles on zone two. I did not do one single interval on VO2 or FTP. My first 10 mile TT this year I matched my best time on time on the same course last year. I even had a month off the bike in between. How do you explain my sudden fitness and ability to hold FTP if I havent done any training on FTP?
I agree. This is where periodization comes in. If we’re only talking about Z2, for example, you need to systematically increase volume. You can’t just motor at Z2 at the same rate every week because you will have hit the roof. To raise it, you need to expand your Z2 volume. One of the most important aspects of cycling is that you can do way more TIME at Z2 than, for example, running. Everyone talks about time-crunched training but unfortunately in order to “raise the roof” at some point you need to increase your volume. You will quickly reach a plateau and stay there.
Honestly, I couldn't finish this video. I didn't feel Olav really said much (although he talked a LOT) that I found useful to me as a cyclist. He seemed contradictory to himself at different points in the interview which left me confused. His opinion definitely doesn't change the way I look at my training.
Genuine question, not trying to be rude: what happens if you try to ride harder? For me, HR goes up out of zone 2. Or is it more like a muscular limitation? Or perhaps your zones are calculated incorrectly? I know some people who run at a very low HR compared to average
@@3Max Zone 2 training doesn't really stress the body. It's main purpose is to heal your body's dysfunctional/inflexible mitochondria. And Zone higher than 2 is real training. They by definition put stress on the body. If Zone 3 is difficult for you, then take things slow. Build up the duration in Zone 3. When you get to 30 to 45 minutes as not being too difficult, then up the ante to Zone 4. Then Zone 5. Then you are ready to start mixing up your workouts so some are at Zone 3, some at Zone 4, some at Zone 5. When mixing the zones from day to day, Zone 3 will have the longest duration. Zone 5 will have the shortest.
30 mins to say, don’t forget your intervals. It’s still fun to hear someone say something slightly different, even if it is reinventing the wheel. THANKS GCN.
This guy is perfect to be cult leader. He portrays like he is holding knowledge or information that he alone knows and no one knows. He doesn't even know how to explain things. Nobody said that do only zone 2 and you become an elite Athlete unless you are Kilian Jornet who said that he just runs everyday and only lately he started structured training since he had a family due to time constraints. This guy is lucky to train 2 best elite athletes in the world that can take the beating and who already have a good engine. It's not like he trained this 2 athletes from the beginning. My 2 cents.
the althletes he train wasn't close to where they are now before he started to train them so his methods work. but im with you when it comes to explaining, he have a academic backround and is not good at teaching his knowledge in a consumable way.
@@gcn You sound a little scared of running out of ideas for content. One thing you haven't covered in much depth is randonneuring. Most people that do randonneuring stick to rides between 100k and 200k in length. I'm not a fan of those rides. I like to go out for 300k and 400k rides. Randonneuring differs depending on the Country. So cover it in England, Europe, India, Australia, and the US. Then delve into why women are so underrepresented. Maybe make some vids on how more women can be enticed into doing randonneuring?
@@gcn The title is maybe something of a straw man. You recently had Manon training entirely in zone 2 (or more precisely sub lactate turn point). I can see this might be appropriate for someone just starting sport, especially if they are older and haven't had a health checkup but, as your coach says above, it is not going to make you a race winner, maybe a good bike courier. The key takeouts from zones are that you can't do significant amounts of training above the second Lactate turn point. So if you are a pro and need a certain amount of volume you are going to be doing 2 hours plus > LT2 efforts per week and the other 80 to 90% below that. What Seiler and co observed is that those other 18 hours are better spend < LT1 rather than in the LT1 - LT2 zone. You'll get as much benefit with less fatigue. So called Polarized training. Other studies have shown that Pyramidal training works as well.
I couldn’t care less what zone I’m in during a ride. Just the fact that I’m out there exercising and enjoying nature is a win for me. Good luck with your zones 😉
Makes sense! I misunderstood that mitochondrial efficiency was the bottleneck, therefore zone 2 was proposed as preferential, if it’s cardio then vo2 max intervals and Sweet spot for the time crunched is then preferable but key is consistency
Are you a fan of Zone 2 training? 🚴
In short, no - not a fan. I work intervals into almost every ride. Some more than others. Stopped with that nonsense a few years ago and have never been faster.
@@mumm-ratheeverliving3138 Do you not find that you burn yourself out too quick?
Absolutely not! I like high intensity and I don't like this low intensity laziness :)!!
Yes, because I'm able to get on the bike (indoor or outdoors) more often without getting sick and as a result I'm on stronger on specific targeted rides. I found that stressing the heart and the immune system too often was a recipe for longer periods of rest through sickness. Of course I would have higher intensity training but once or 2 twice per week.
Not at all! Learned to listen to my body. I push just a little over threshold with each interval, recover for a bit then smash another one out. Having a lot of fun with that!
Olav kept reinforcing a point that is the problem of all competitive people - "don't go bonkers (over exertion)". When we are feeling good in our training regiment, we want to push ourselves to the limit. The wear and tare this has on the body demands a lot of recovery, opens us up for injury and keeps the body in a repair state instead of a build state. I fought this tendency to max out until I had an injury serious enough to teach me otherwise. I really liked the whole conversation and it all hit home for me.
Consistent training and consistently doing the same variation of training (focused to your own goals/targets ) is going to help but you have to be disciplined with yourself and look at the long game and not the 'smash it up' effort in a busy plan when you've got a longer effort/ride the next day - you'll be feeling it for the majority .. We've all done it :D i have..
What injury did you get?
@@DanCave oh yes we all have done it😂. Most dangerous is tapering out of a training plan close to a competition. You feel Soo good. My last competition I completely shot myself by way overdoing my last 2 runs. Happens so easy.
@@listrahtes ditto to that..
So do more zone 2?
Information light discussion. 30 minutes to say:
1. Consistency over the long term is good
2. Alternate easy and hard days
3. Don't dig yourself into a hole by overdoing.
Thx
Thank you. I think there was some more subtle discussion regarding the Efficiency of mitochondria over central cardiovascular system, but that kind of went over my head.
Thank you. Dudes just rambling hard lol
In Norway you learn this when you’re ten and start cycling, cross country skiing or running. Do one session of intervals (zone 3-5) a week and the rest of sessions is zone 1-2. Also best recovery is sleeping enough. Unless you’re aiming for pro your training plan doesn’t need to be more advanced than this for the average Joe with family, work and the occasional grand fondo. I tried many of these workouts plans of different apps like Zwift, but most of them drains you in a few weeks because the load is too high when you have a normal lifestyle.
It can be really tricky to balance life and training! Do you have any tips for people that are struggling with this?
@@gcnquit your job
@@gcn Use available time. I drive my son to soccer practice. All the other parents sit in their cars and watch and wait. I go to the gym next to the soccer field. I got 83 sessions last year at the gym by doing this. If you don’t want to be far away from home if the kids are old enough to be alone for a little while, do laps in the neighborhood. Running, walking, cycling to work is also “free” zone 2 time.
@@gcn Walking is also kind of a national thing in Norway. We walk all the time. I take the buss to work, but jump off the bus two stops before work and walk the rest. Same after work. This gives me 30 minutes of walking each day that I don’t even notice.
I have seen people on social media following zwift fitness plans and do 8-12 weeks of training with an FTP test at the end and they only gain 10-15watts. I belive that their gains are stunted because of a number of factors. I am coaching two guys in their mid/late sixties who've been gaining ~10-15 watts a month with consistent training over six months - doing zone 2/3 training in the majority with zone 4 threshold efforts. People who ride a bike and want to train should do so with specific training and not 'do stuff cos zwift says so' without realising what each targetted training gives them.
The ridiculous clickbait title seems a disservice to Si’s excellent interview and GCN’s otherwise high standards. It would also appear to be rather insulting to your guest. He categorically does NOT say that zone 2 is a waste of time but provides a high level of nuance.
It's the game of TH-cam. Blame TH-cam not GCN.
@@BrakeMagazine I dont buy that excuse one bit
@@BrakeMagazine Bullshit.
“Ridiculous clickbait title” is a little overkill, don’t you think? Olav says in the video that he thinks there is some merit to training in zone 2 but staying only in that training zone will cause you to hit a ceiling. Which would go against the common notion that only training in zone 2 is the best type of training to increase your base and overall fitness level; So the title of the video is actually pretty spot-on, he does find zone 2 overrated, to an extent.
@@grantedwards9021 Yep, I agree. The initial objection was stated as zone 2 'is a waste of time'. But that's not what the title says, unless it's been changed.
Great interview. He basically reaffirms that zone 2 does work...when combined with harder intensity training. There's nothing new here. Im sticking to my 80/20 training.
Sounds like you've got it nailed 👌
So you wont increase it when your recovery can handle it?
@TomSM5 Nope, I increase the intensity of the next high intensity intervals, but not the frequency.
so do i😉
Key take home from both coaches: consistency is king.
Ride ride ride! There isn't any replacement 🙌
@@gcn I don't believe he was saying that. I took from it that you need progressive overload....... kJ's burned per week/month need to increase or you stagnate (hit the ceiling). And, that Z2 only training will get you so far, you need to add in high/medium intensity if you want to keep progressing esp if time crunched. What he didn't say but is really saying is, you can't recover from doing high/medium intensity training everyday, so the fillers/alternate days should be Z1/Z2 (of 5 zone/7 zone model(s))
This all sounds like scientific support for Eddie Merckx's training suggestion: "Ride a lot, sometimes ride hard". It all makes total sense. I'm glad this research has been done. Thanks for the great video!
EDDY !
"Zone 2 is a waste of time" in quotation marks, meaning he spoke those words. Anyone have the timestamp where he said it? I can't find him saying anything remotely like that. I see him saying Zone 2 is "very effective" at 28:00.
Click bait
It's a lie as far as I can tell
Yes, lie and clikbait. It is a shame, and I hope more people react to this sort of lie. It better not be accepted or more producers will use such shit for getting attention.
He didn't say waste of time but you might be able to do something even better with your training.
Which would be the alternation of lower intensity paired with high intensity.
@@leko4420 agree for me this is a strong motivation to avoid the channel
The format is great. Really, any content from you to get my mind off the rest of the burning world is great. The longer the better.
I love the format as opposed to just chunks of info taken from an interview. I even listen to Adams loooong posts on zero friction cycling. Great work. Also, it's very helpful to get other descriptions or points of view. He speaks of nuance...he does a great job of pointing out nuances of training....great and helpful to me.
Great to hear you enjoyed the video! We love these long form interviews, are there any other subjects you would like us to cover?
Pro bike fitter....not at home changes. Actual the entire process (dealing with hip impingement, saddle set back,etc).
Race tactics
If you did enjoy his perspective, Olav has a podcast called the Norwegian Method where he goes into fine detail on many aspects of elite endurance sports.
Thanks for keeping things simple Olav!
Great video guys. The title got me to watch, but the discussion surely didn’t disappoint.
This is what we like to hear 🙌
@@gcn Yeah. Every business owner likes to think they deliver something of value.
The thumbnail and the title are 100% clickbait! Obviously, nobody ever said «Replace all your training with Z2 ». You don’t need to be a Norwegian to know it wouldn’t be efficient 😂 Still, the video is very informative, and I appreciate seeing a different take on Zone 2 training and hearing different way of thoughts on the topic!
100% agree. Click bait 😏
Have you watched it yet? Personally I think he raises some really interesting points, particularly relating to mitochondria. Cheers, Si
Si, I am sorry, I love you guys! But the title is literally “zone 2 is waste of time”, not even “Is zone 2 a waste of time?”. And yes, I have watched it and even his opinion is (simplified) “Mondays and Wednesdays zone 2”. As in everything, moderation and variety. I also was intrigued by the mitochondrial function not being the limiting factor, as well. I understand your business and the fact that probably the title choice is not dependent on the presenters.
Ditto! But keep in mind that this channel is not just a few guys getting together to make content for TH-cam. It's a corporation that has to meet payroll obligations. And these video presenters need to generate click the same way Fox Media, CNN, MSNBS, etc need to generate clicks. Clickbaiting is the standard norm.
The sad thing about cycling channels is that there is only just so much that can be talked about. Have you guys noticed how many repeat topics GNC has been generating? It probably won't last another 2 years. That's my guess.
Well, we've been going 11 years, hopefully we'll last a couple more! Sorry you think that this is clickbait, personally I disagree. I also think if you look back through recent videos you'll see a complete absence of clickbait in other titles too.
I love every interview I get to watch with Olav. To see how he thinks about the approach is amazing and eye-opening. Thanks so much, top-notch content.
Really enjoyed this. Apart from the science and the quality of the conversation I was struck forcefully once again at how well and with what an extensive vocabulary Olav communicates in a second language . In the English speaking world we take this for granted so much of the time
Couldn't agree more. Very intelligent guy
No-one ever said only Zone 2 training except GCN, in my opinion. Human nature makes most of us tend to do 0% Zone 2 because it doesn’t feel like it is doing anything. It’s a revelation that Zone 2 is actually really important part of training. 80-85% of training time should be in Zone 2, which is extremely hard to do! Most of us do way too much training in our hard zones!
💯
Yes,even Iñigo San Millan says it's not enough to do just zone 2, you have to do the high intensity training too, just that it's really important to do a lot of continuous zone 2 in your training.
If you search on youtube almost all videos are zone 2
If Zone 2 feels like you aren't doing anything, then you are probably in Zone 1. I watched a video of Peter Attia doing a demonstration of a Zone 2 ride, and clearly he is feeling something.
@@bobp5523 I think it's a matter of categorizing perception? Zone 2 feels like you're doing something. Zone 2 doesn't feel like you're pushing, and in most people's minds that means it doesn't feel like you're training or working out. I think it's a shame that people only tend to think of working out as something that's hard, because there's a lot you can do comfortably that will still make you more fit. Zone 2 is done at a level where you really feel like you're just kind of muddling about not doing /much/ and the only reason that feels rewarding to me is because I know it will let me do more sooner, rather than breaking me down and ruining my training tomorrow or making the level of exertion I'm shooting for feel miserable.
Feeling miserable is a valid thing to do when you're actively training for competition and something you'll need to get used to if that's your goal, but even then all of your training and working out should not feel miserable, cause that's an easy way to lose motivation.... that said, probably a big part of the reason z2 is so popular is that it /doesn't/ feel miserable, and if you feel miserable you're definitely doing it wrong. Thing is, in a lot of people's minds feeling miserable is what training means. I think that's why people say "zone 2 doesn't feel like you're doing anything": because it doesn't feel punishing, and "doing something" in regards to training is expected to feel punishing for a lot of people.
This is misleading and misunderstanding of zone 2. Iñigo never claimed that zone 2 training should be exclusive, its that zone 2 is foundational.
He (Iñigo) also has stayed several times some of his athletes have a zone 2 output rivaling my zone 5 lol
Yes but he makes it sound crucial and stresses the mitochondrial adaptations while Olav downplays it and says that for many cardiovascular improvement and adaptation are more important. Something along those lines. Also for example he suggest going into zone 3 is even better just if you can recover well. So all in all he downplays importance of zone 2 to a certain level.
Love this kind of content.
It's the stuff you could read about in the magazines before they become all biased "buy this stuff" content to be able to survive.
Learning about the latest training research and hear from up-to-date caches is not a bad way to get your training going.
Fascinating interview! Love the nuancing! Love these Science Si deep dive interviews! Great content. Unfortunate title. Both Inigo and Olav are riveting and right. What I love about Olav's take about recovery/sleep and LISTENING TO YOUR BODY! This is particularly
importants as we age. Phil Cavell emphasizes this point in THE MIDLIFE CYCLIST. Please keep this content coming!
Of course this Super Coach is correct. The concept is diminishing return. Optimizing mitochondria function is only one element in the performance equation. Zone 2 isn't a be all or panacea to training. It is only developing a baseline. Dr. Peter Attia has a superb youtube short on the subject and talks about area under the triangle. Zone 2 is the width of the base of the triangle. Peak height to an isosceles triangle is V02 max. A short peak to the triangle aka low V02 max does not optimize performance. Can't optimize V02 max which is critical to optimizing road racing without HIIT to improve power and strength.
Biggest mistake riders make that the Norwegian super coach stated, is riding too hard too often. We have all made this mistake. A variety of Zone 2 with specific HIIT to optimize V02 max is required to maximize the area inside the triangle for best road racing performance.
Thanks for the video Si and thanks to the coach for sharing his expertise.
PS. unrelatedly, I have some Norwegian genes as an American. 🙂
I would take anything that Peter Attia says with a huge grain of salt
I usually think of Zone 2 training as workouts designed to repair damaged mitochondria. Usually the damage comes from consuming too much sugar and other carbs without enough fat so the mitochondria cannot remember how to switch back and forth burning carbs and fat at will. After the mitochondria are flexible and dense and higher intensity training is necessary to increase VO2 max, there is a need for some slow recovery rides. Some might call them Zone 2 training. But I don't. I don't really consider recovery workouts to be training. To me they are more like medication.
Peter Attila’s stuff is superb.
HIIT offers massive benefit. While people get wrapped around the axle on the peak intervals, the actual average heart rate during an escalating HIIT routine is pretty much in Zone 3. The muscular loads, however, are quite high. Since heart rate lags behind muscular load until the onset of cardiac drift due to a rise in core temperature, the muscles end up getting a phenomenal workout from HIIT.
@@jlippin123Recovery rides dont exist.
what kind of jeans do you have?
Great interview. Thanks Si. What a treat to be a GCN subscriber.
Did he really say zone 2 is "overrated" ? Because i listened to all of that and he definitely didn't say its overrated... All he does is keep referring back to "tour de france sprinters" and true "track sprinters" Basically the top 0.01% and DOES not apply to 99.9% of age groupers, weekend warriors etc. But hey, whatever gets the clicks. And i am pretty sure NO training program prescribes ONLY zone 2 training?
Really appreciating the multiple perspectives! Well done GCN!
He actually agrees with Indigo San Millan. San Millan says also about himself he finishes his zone 2 workouts with zone 5 or zone 6 work (as a very time crunched rider). And of course your training must have a complete picture of several intensity zones.
He is not a dog. The name of the coach is Inigo ))
Great video. I guess variety is the spice of life, plus leave a little in the tank so you can be consistent and improve. Interesting side note. I was listening to part of an interview Victor Vincente the other day, and he said he basically followed the training formula of Bob Tetzlaff (1960 US Olympian), which was ride hard on Tuesday, Thursday, and then race on Sunday. Take it easy Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
So, Olav was absolutely right about similar ideas being around for decades ;)
Thanks for this interview!
It's been about a year since I started to deep dive into training properly.
Olav stated what I understood from reading different studies, mix & match of different training is always the best approach. Training to exhaustion could be done when training for a specific purpose and limited time (e.g. gym session for muscular hypertrophy) but in the long run isn't sustainable nor advantageous.
Btw the norwegian method is a strict pyramide training, so most of the training session are in Z2.
Great to hear that you enjoyed the video 🙌 How have you changed your training since doing the deep dive?
That was so interesting! Did not know that mitochondrial function is "orders of magnitude" above cardiovascular function. Great interview.
0:10 - Nobody's ever said that though, not even Inigo. The best rule of thumb is 80% sessions zone 2, 20% of sessions >FTP
Is this the system that has worked for you? 👀
@@gcn Yep, unless it's just after the off-season, where I'll only go hard once every couple of weeks for one session out of every 10-12 in favor of volume/fun.
No! >FTP is not very intense. It should be high zone 4 or better zone 5 - in respect to the 20%.
@@Nyonide High zone 4 is >FTP
@@philadams9254 Yes and this is were you get the benefits. Exactly what I am saying. Better Zone 5 though.
@gcnm please keep on with content like this. Keep them coming. The quality of this channel keeps improving. It's a pleasure to watch you and to learn from you. I just love it 🙏!
No one has ever suggested to train 100% in Zone 2. None of this is new. In the "70's we trained by perceived effort and breathing. Spend 80% at a talking pace, 20% at higher levels. When I train on my own, I am in Zone 2 on the flats, Zone 3 on climbs. I do one or two group rides each week with younger and faster people. I am in Zones 3, 4 and 5 to keep up and the efforts come as needed rather than a certain number of minutes on or off. There isn't anything new here.
That's an interesting point! Did you catch Si talking to Nick Craig about how he stays so fit as on older racer 👉th-cam.com/video/GCfqgnfoVWY/w-d-xo.html
Zone 2 is something else. Your zone 2 isn't zone 2. Every time you get into zone 3 you lose everything you did in zone 2. Please have a look at the older GCN videos with San Millan.
@@orbifold4387 did he mention it takes something like 20 minutes for your body to get back into zone2 . Which is why he likes to add on a hiit session at the end of his zone 2 sessions
@@orbifold4387 'Every time you get into zone 3 you lose everything you did in zone 2. ' That's overstating the case. you don't lose the stimuli it just takes a while (
Oh my. You sound like a weekend warrior. Do you have a beer gut, too?
I still have training bible from 1990’s when I was racing. It’s all gone full circle, 80% of your training volume Z2, 20% 3/4, always end feeling you could go more. No Z5 in training sessions, race day is the max effort. Alternate training sessions and taper down to race day.
Olaf’s great information on what is limiting performance, it’s not the mitochondria efficiency but heart and lungs.
The Joe Friel one?
If you are trained to win, then race day is usually not your max effort unless you are participating in a time trial against the clock. It's when you do those Zone 5 training sessions that you are maxing out.
@@Bob_Shy_132 obviously paraphrasing the entire book into one paragraph isn’t quite all he said but a general gist. 😁
@@jlippin123 paraphrasing Joe Friel, he has trained the odd winner or two in his time. 😁
Sounds a lot like Jack Daniels' (running coach, not liquor) bible. Stairstep training load for ~6week periods, using fitness test (best is a time trial race) following the 6-week constant load period (with pre-race taper for a few days) as indicator of what the new training load should be. Try to stay in the sweet spot of enough new training impulse to give a significant adaptation, but not enough that you burn out or get injured (injury being a much bigger concern for runners). Hard workouts straddled on either side of your target race duration (e.g. FTP duration vs. VO2max duration) to alternately "raise the ceiling" and "lift the base," converging closer to race duration as the event nears.
I can't believe I have free access to this type of information, thank you.
My take is that mitochondria can take up huge amounts of oxygen. If you are not fit enough to provide them with the oxygen, having more mitochondria won’t be of much benefit.
If you are very fit from a cardiovascular/pulmonary standpoint then increasing mitochondrial function might help.
No. The mitochondria are the weak link in most people fitness or lack of fitness. Poor diet is the primary cause for mitochondria becoming dysfunctional. And dysfunctional mitochondria is the key reason older guys who like to ride a bike complain about getting old. They think their body is just wearing out. It's not really the body as a whole usually. It is dysfunctional mitochondria. Other conditions related to this are: metabolic syndrome, pre-diabetes, diabetes, insulin resistance, clogged arteries, fatty liver disease, stroke, heart attacks, and cancer. Fix your mitochondria and so many things in your life should improve.
@@jlippin123 Please.... getting old is normal and your body "wears" out with age ok? We don't have 700 years old yodas around doing races.
@@monstro8171 I hear you. It sucks getting old. And when we get old who wants to race? Not me. But I like to know that I can still go fast when I want to. It's true that the body wears out over time. But just like a car if well maintained it will not wear out quickly. Most people as they age do not do a good job of maintaining themselves. And the mitochondria are the first things to go. And they affect everything else. The one thing you cannot fix as you age is how fast you will recover after a stressful workout. But you can fix your mitochondria.
Incredible interview!
Great interview! Thanks!
Yes title a bit misleading but quality video…I’d urge people to ignore title and watch! Loads of good advice and insights from a guy who knows his stuff!
I missed the part where a Norwegian super coach says that zone 2 is overrated.
Love these long form interview videos. More please.
Just get on your bike and Ride. Enjoy the scenery, enjoy it along Lakers, Rivers and in the hills and Mountains.
That's the cool thing about cycling, you can get whatever you want from it 🙌
If you live in a big town, there is no lake, rivers or mountains.
And some of us don't ride for "fun"...
@@chrisdelaplante5515depends on the town, many have lakes and rivers and quite a few have mountains 😁
@@HighFell Where ? in Péru ?
Brilliant interview Si - great questions and listening skills!
In a nutshell, the mitochondria are integral to athletic performance. They need to be flexible meaning they need to be able to switch back and forth between carb fuels and fat fuels. And they need to be dense meaning they are not skinny runts but instead are big and bulky capable of producing lots of power. If the mitochondria are dysfunctional (inflexible) and rely primarily on carb fuels, then this is when Zone 2 training is most beneficial and not a waste of time. Zone 2 allows for mitophagy to eliminate the damaged mitochondria and regrow new skinny runts of mitochondria. When there are no more inflexible mitochondria to replace (usually after 6 months of training), then Zone 2 training loses its importance. Zones 4 and 5 training are important when it comes to making skinny runt mitochondria into robust and dense mitochondria. And when the athlete has healthy dense mitochondria (usually after 3 or 4 months of training), then the real training comes into play. The body now has the tools it needs to push itself to higher levels of performance.
Perfectly put! 🙌
This guys gets it
Your comment is more valuable than entire video.
Loved this,,, cracking interview, top work team.
I must say that zone 2 definitely works because I focused on it almost exclusively during the off season and now even 30 lbs heavier I’m breaking PR’s this year without even trying. Lol
30lb heavier, maybe your new performance is related to that in some way? More calories.
@@ninjaxd9050 I’m not sure but even my uphill times are on par or better and I’ve only barely begun putting in the road miles this year. It’s quite shocking actually.
It will be interesting to see what may be lost in performance as the weight starts shedding if the wrong weight is lost. Lol
@@neoneherefrom5836 It all depends on how healthy you mitochondria are. If they were really sick when you started, then Zone 2 will make a big difference in your performance. If they were healthy at the outset, then not so much.
@@jlippin123 I can tell you that I always put intensity above duration so I’d be willing to bet my mitochondria were begging for attention lmao
@@neoneherefrom5836 The way to see if your mitochondria are inflexible (unhealthy) is to have a high carb meal not too much before you start a 4 or 5 hour Zone 2 bike ride. Could you make it through the entire ride without eating anything while not feeling ravenous? If not, then your body was unable to tap on stored body fat for energy. Classic case of dysfunctional mitochondria.
Typically the longer the ride then the lower the intensity. Most weekend warrior cyclists I know love cafe stops along the way on their Saturday morning rides. I think they think it's a social thing that they must have a cafe stop (convenience store stop). But in reality it's an addiction thing. They have dysfunctional mitochondria and after riding 30 or 35 miles they have run out of glycogen/sugar to burn for energy. But there is too much insulin in their blood and thus they cannot burn stored body fat for energy. So they feel like they are starving. They need a fix of sugar. They go to the candy aisle or pastry aisle at the convenience store and load up on sugar to get them back to their cars or home.
Great interview and discussion. All coaches, Inigo included, know that we need to train all systems. Zone 2 really develops the aerobic system with minimal muscular catabolic damage, but we need to train the other zones in order to the demands each rider needs. Keep up the great work Si and GCN.
So basically he’s saying that 100% zone 2 will limit development and that a balance is required, like 80:20 ratio of low to high intensity. Which is literally what everyone says.
Amazing content. Thank you!
It depends on your goals. He's training people to win the most competitive professional racers. For that group, training zone 2 only isn't going to cut it. He's trying his clients to excel at the limits of performance! So his clients need to train at much higher levels effort to build their VO2max.
That's an interesting point! For must of us it's just about getting consistency. What did you make of Olav's points around 68 hours? Sweet spot might be the training best fitting for most people.
@@gcn 6 -8 h SS is harder than it sounds. You would have to build up to it in steps.
When I was a kid in my teens and took up the sport of bicycle racing I would do 900 miles of Zone 2 training on a fixed gear track bike to "get fit" so I could train to win for the rest of the season. Usually this riding was done in late February and early March. But after two years of racing my fitness never dropped enough over the winters to justify doing the Zone 2 training any longer. The coach being interviewed in this video is coaching athletes that never let their fitness level drop to a point where Zone 2 is needed any longer. They need recover rides. Sure. But recovery rides are not training. So they are not Zone 2.
@@James-zu1ij That's especially true when you do it in a fasted state so maximum mitophagy takes place.
@@jlippin123where do you have evidence of mitophagy and fasted training? There is some evidence of fasting helping with mitophagy but I don't know of any benefits to fasted training.
Also...he literally talks about them(top of the sport) doing zone 2 riding.
This is what you should be doing more of! Real advice from real experts w/o the hype and w/o it being dumbed down.
That is the benefit of zone 2, it allows more hours to develop your CV system which takes the longest, whilst recovering and not battering your CNS so you can then go hard when you need to. Do not go hard by RPE, you need the snap and oomph that zone 2 training gives you.
This is one of the most informative knowledge about this particular subject. Thank you for this!!!
So basically he doesn't disagree. He is talking about high high performance where 99.99% is cycling population is not. Basically, zone 2 still valid, specially for amateur like the rest of us. The 80/20 or 90/10 still valid.
For most people it'll be about getting consistency and milage under the belt 🙌 That said, it was interesting to hear that sweet spot trainning might be the route to go down 🤔
@@gcn I have to disagree a little bit. I know so many cyclists and runners and most of them get enough volume and miles. The intensity on the other hand is often lacking.
The right thing is to do 2 or 3 real workouts per week. Zone 2 is filler depend of how much you can do more.
They really do a lot of z1 too with much of their z2 being low z2 to make the best of the hard stuffs.
@@Nyonideand many do too much intensity. This is all about finding what's ideal for a given person
- do you believe in zone 2 training?
- no
- what training do you recommend for amateur cyclists?
- zone 2 training
ok
Very good video!! More content like this please!!
I'm a fan of not listening to "experts". They just seem to follow whatever is popular this week. Just ride - be happy.
I think the physiological indicator needed to assess energy levels and readiness for training is heart rate variability. It's a good way of tracking past training and assessing how hard the training today and tomorrow should be. Interestingly, you can also use it to assess the degree to which chronic diseases are an issue.
So intersting. I now feel better with myself knowing he only change of plans you should do is doing less. This is something I started to do his year, and as I am training for ultraendurance it sometimes feel counterproductive to do less. Thanks Olav an SI!
I've NEVER heard any reputable coach or cyclist say that the best way to train is to use only zone 2. Polarized training uses three zones, and they structure it so that you're doing 80% of your training in zone 1 (endurance), and 20% doing HIIT. So if I train 5 days per week, I do 3 long rides in zone 1, and 2 rides where I hammer intervals. I've found over many years that this type of training not only makes me faster, but I don't get burned out because I'm not going full gas every time I get on my bike like a lot of cyclists do.
I don't think the 80% is supposed to be done in Zone 1. Probably somewhere between Zone 2 and Zone 3 is ideal if you are doing Polarized Training. And it's fine to switch back and forth between Zone 2 and Zone 3 during the 80%. All the switching back and forth means the rider is not doing True Zone 2 (TZ2). TZ2 requires the rider to burn fat for fuel EXCLUSIVELY. You go in and out of Zone 3 and you cannot be doing TZ2.
@@jlippin123 I would suggest you read up on polarized training. You don't want to touch zone 2 or 3 for 80-90% of your training. As a matter of fact, if you go from zone 1 to zone 2, even for a minute, it takes at least 20 minutes to reset yourself to zone 1. Zone 2 is sweet spot, and you shouldn't be doing much at all in that zone. Zone 3 is VO2, and you want to hit that once or twice a week depending on how many hours/days you're training. Zone 3 is strictly for hitting high intensity intervals. Polarized literally means two poles. Zone 1 and zone 3. No mixing them up (unless you're doing intervals of course, because you want to ride easy between intervals). It would seem to me from your comment that you need to research this training method. I've been doing it for years and I assure you it works extremely well.
@@shepshape2585 You seem to be basing your comment on a range of three zones: 1 to 3. My comment is based on on a range of five zones: 1 to 5.
@@jlippin123 Polarized training only uses 3 zones. Hence why you're not understanding what I had originally posted. Look it up, it's a fantastic way to train.
Excellent information. Thank you GCN!
Backwards Hat Dylan loves it 💖💖💖
lol!
Dylan already addressed Norwegian / pyramidal training in his video as an equally effective method. Still mostly zone 2 then 3 then 4-5
@@ZhiloreznikDylan is more advanced than GCN!
What a pleasure to listen to, and both allowed to speak and frame output. Very informative and framing the cumulative impact. I wonder if the coach also monitors HRV and that this directs session zone.
'Zone 2 training may be over hyped but it is THE basis of fitness and metabolic health. What is over done is Zone 3 - black hole traing. And what is under done is Zone 4. But really if I'm going to ride 10 hours a week, I am not going to do zone 4 or HITT most of that time... but Zone 2. Thanks.
Fantastic discussion!!
Hypothetical question: If recovery would'nt be a problem (you are 100% recovered every morning), how would you train? Would you still train more zone 2 than zone 5?
Nah prolly zone 5 and 4, cuz point of zone 2 as i understand is that it maximises adaptations with respect to recovery. Obviously if you train harder (lets say threshold) there will be more adaptations but the recovery would be much much longer. If that isnt a problem (which is in real life impossible) then sure do threshold and sprint everyday 😅
A good question and a good answer :)
What an interesting idea! 👀
If your mitochondria are healthy and recovery is not an issue, then pedal to the metal is how you improve your performance. Zone 2 is just for getting your mitochondria back in a functioning state.
NO. Zone 2 is not for recovery alone, although I see how you might think that after this brief video. Zone 1 is really pure recovery, albeit it does teach your body to burn more fat as fuel. But Zone 2 is an aerobic training zone. It trains a particular and foundational aspect of your cardiovascular system. You STILL need to achieve a “training effect” with Zone 2, which is what he explained when talking about hitting the ceiling. The way you get that training effect in Zone 2 is TIME. Only time, that is, systematically building more of it. So if you do Zone 2 for, say, 5 hours per week for many weeks, at some point you are not achieving a Z2 training effect anymore, for example, more and better mitochondria. Do threshold and sprint every day and you are sacrificing the very foundation of your training, which is why people call it “pyramid” training with Z2 at the bottom. So my answer is not only no, but heck no! Z2 IS TRAINING. But you need to increase (I prefer in a periodized way) your Z2 time to achieve increasing endurance benefits that are the foundation for threshold and VO2 fitness. 😊
What I take with me from this video, (listen to many interviews with Olav) was that it’s not just ok it is right to skip one or two intervals if you see your numbers are not keeping up.
Many of us want so much do the “homework “ and it will lead to overloading the body to much.
Now I coach myself, and I been there to not be able to do the work. When I had my coach, he was really good to balance my training.
I also liked that he said that it takes years to build up one body. That’s why I can’t just copy my training from last year exactly. I’m not in the same square. Always little different situation.
Thank you for this video
//Marie-Louise 🇸🇪
Jeff from Athlean X prescribes this:
1. Zone 2 5 days a week with different activity
2. Zone 3.5 once a week
3. Zone 5 once a week
I've been doing this and it's improved my fitness.
Awesome! Is your overall fitness better? If you wanted more explosive power do you think you would need to change the plan up?💥
@@gcn I may want to include more explosive but the zone 5 ride is short and sweet, around 50-60kms. 100kms+ rides are almost always zone 2. Overall resting HR is 50-55 daily with waking HR at 43-49. Avg HR for rides anywhere between 120-149. I find nasal breathing works from 110-133, so that's where I stay, even when climbing. Rarely hit zone 4 and recovery down to Zone 2 is quick in Zone 3.
Even then I'm in 3-4 most of the time with bursts of Zone 5. No need to kill yourself for fitness :)
I'd say for sprints save those for harder days.
You should measure in time not in km. 60 km in Denmark or Florida is totally different from 60 km in Switzerland or Colorado.
Loved this interview! I had no idea about zone training a month ago, and even though I've been adding zone 2 training to my schedule, I was never under the illusion that I could avoid high intensity for stretching my capacity, specially for climbing. And I've always heard that if you do the same thing over and over, regardless of the sport, you get diminishing returns, so it seems that variety is really the answer to most efficient training.
Thanks for just letting the guy talk. Huberman or Attia would’ve interrupted the him 12 times in the first 3 minutes.
I love the state of the pro sports economy. A guy like this has a new partnership with whatever company and that’s reason enough to go on shows and podcasts and talk training science for hours for free . Legend
I'm a seasonal racer/ Time Trail. I usually do intervals on the trainer. It has been my training for a long tine. In October last year I decided to stop my interval training and did mostly long miles on zone two. I did not do one single interval on VO2 or FTP. My first 10 mile TT this year I matched my best time on time on the same course last year. I even had a month off the bike in between. How do you explain my sudden fitness and ability to hold FTP if I havent done any training on FTP?
you were overtrained, i had the same experience.
That's super cool! Great to hear that zone 2 is working for you and that you're hitting some big goals 🙌
1) Was your overall volume the same or has it gone up?
2) Were you overtrained last time you did the TT or did you taper properly?
@@lucio9939 Ditto. I was going to say you were rested this time around.
@@lucio9939 Agreed.
"Raise the roof" is the highlight of the interview. Great stuff.
I agree. This is where periodization comes in. If we’re only talking about Z2, for example, you need to systematically increase volume. You can’t just motor at Z2 at the same rate every week because you will have hit the roof. To raise it, you need to expand your Z2 volume. One of the most important aspects of cycling is that you can do way more TIME at Z2 than, for example, running. Everyone talks about time-crunched training but unfortunately in order to “raise the roof” at some point you need to increase your volume. You will quickly reach a plateau and stay there.
Honestly, I couldn't finish this video. I didn't feel Olav really said much (although he talked a LOT) that I found useful to me as a cyclist. He seemed contradictory to himself at different points in the interview which left me confused. His opinion definitely doesn't change the way I look at my training.
The chapters feature with the video to jump around to sections is great 👌🏻
Luckily nobody needs a Norwegian Super Coach to enjoy cycling or stay fit. 80/20 for the win!
Nobody NEEDS one but it would cool wouldn't it 👀
I appreciate GCN bringing a Norwegian Super Coach to our attention so we can learn. Thus, we don’t need him but now we have him! 😊
I loved this interview. I rarely hold back, need to integrate easy sessions in between harder trainings.
Some of us can't get out of Zone 2
Genuine question, not trying to be rude: what happens if you try to ride harder? For me, HR goes up out of zone 2. Or is it more like a muscular limitation? Or perhaps your zones are calculated incorrectly? I know some people who run at a very low HR compared to average
@@3Max Zone 2 training doesn't really stress the body. It's main purpose is to heal your body's dysfunctional/inflexible mitochondria. And Zone higher than 2 is real training. They by definition put stress on the body. If Zone 3 is difficult for you, then take things slow. Build up the duration in Zone 3. When you get to 30 to 45 minutes as not being too difficult, then up the ante to Zone 4. Then Zone 5. Then you are ready to start mixing up your workouts so some are at Zone 3, some at Zone 4, some at Zone 5. When mixing the zones from day to day, Zone 3 will have the longest duration. Zone 5 will have the shortest.
30 mins to say, don’t forget your intervals.
It’s still fun to hear someone say something slightly different, even if it is reinventing the wheel. THANKS GCN.
PS why isn’t this interview on GTN instead of GCN?
Maybe GTN should do one too 👀
Amen! To improve, you must push yourself towards your limits. Staying in zone 2 might just keep you fit and nothing more.
This guy is norvegian for sure, he live in a small wood house and he wear recyclable clothing.
Sounds like the dream!
@@skelly0000 muahahaha 😁😁😁
I want to go to Norway. Just can't fjord it
12:17 -- "there's a day after tomorrow", "consistency", I think this is such a key message.
This guy is perfect to be cult leader. He portrays like he is holding knowledge or information that he alone knows and no one knows. He doesn't even know how to explain things. Nobody said that do only zone 2 and you become an elite Athlete unless you are Kilian Jornet who said that he just runs everyday and only lately he started structured training since he had a family due to time constraints. This guy is lucky to train 2 best elite athletes in the world that can take the beating and who already have a good engine. It's not like he trained this 2 athletes from the beginning. My 2 cents.
the althletes he train wasn't close to where they are now before he started to train them so his methods work. but im with you when it comes to explaining, he have a academic backround and is not good at teaching his knowledge in a consumable way.
Great! This can be a podcast when you talk for 2-3 hours as well. Would 100% listen.
We're not focusing too much on Zone 2, GNC is.
Are you not a fan of the zone 2 content? What would you like to see? We're always open to ideas 🙌
@@gcn You sound a little scared of running out of ideas for content. One thing you haven't covered in much depth is randonneuring. Most people that do randonneuring stick to rides between 100k and 200k in length. I'm not a fan of those rides. I like to go out for 300k and 400k rides. Randonneuring differs depending on the Country. So cover it in England, Europe, India, Australia, and the US. Then delve into why women are so underrepresented. Maybe make some vids on how more women can be enticed into doing randonneuring?
@@gcn The title is maybe something of a straw man. You recently had Manon training entirely in zone 2 (or more precisely sub lactate turn point). I can see this might be appropriate for someone just starting sport, especially if they are older and haven't had a health checkup but, as your coach says above, it is not going to make you a race winner, maybe a good bike courier. The key takeouts from zones are that you can't do significant amounts of training above the second Lactate turn point. So if you are a pro and need a certain amount of volume you are going to be doing 2 hours plus > LT2 efforts per week and the other 80 to 90% below that. What Seiler and co observed is that those other 18 hours are better spend < LT1 rather than in the LT1 - LT2 zone. You'll get as much benefit with less fatigue. So called Polarized training. Other studies have shown that Pyramidal training works as well.
Get him on the show more. He’s awesome to listen to and learn from.
Did anyway say you could win those things by doing only zone 2? 🤔
Manon gave it a go! 👉 th-cam.com/video/9qFXEnzItfo/w-d-xo.html
Superb content, guys. Thanks. J
are you wasting your time watching this video
Yes! I want more longer videos.
Not overrated, this is clickbait
Keep them coming...these interviews... :o) keep up the good work
0:10 is he in a sauna? So Nordic.
Sauna ... log cabin ... what ever it is, it's Nordic and cool 😎
That’s a very normal Norwegian attic. Almost all Norwegian homes is made of Norwegian wood (Beatles reference there.)
I couldn’t care less what zone I’m in during a ride. Just the fact that I’m out there exercising and enjoying nature is a win for me.
Good luck with your zones 😉
Blatant click bait
Well done GCN. Good motivation.
Sh1&. 80% of my training is Zone 2!
You might still be okay 👀 Do you find it's making a difference?
Click bait. Sorry it is not! Most of top (i.e. TdeF) riders train most of the time in zone 2.
You'll have to watch the video and let us know what you think 😉
Sorry most riders aren't tdf riders
Great Vídeo! Alexander Bu is the scientist
Global Clickbait Network.
Makes sense! I misunderstood that mitochondrial efficiency was the bottleneck, therefore zone 2 was proposed as preferential, if it’s cardio then vo2 max intervals and Sweet spot for the time crunched is then preferable but key is consistency