"It's HELL" is a TERRIBLE Excuse and Here's Why
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ส.ค. 2022
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I always figured Vivziepop's version of hell was more based on Sartre's existentialist notion of hell being "other people". It's not hell as a metaphysical state of being, it's hell because its inhabitants _make_ each others' lives (and sometimes also their own lives) hell.
Like The Good Place?
@@thegoodwitchluzura Haven't watched that.
So it is basically 7/11 mall, but in red tones.
@@xoxMatch I don't know what that is either.
“It’s an abstract kind of hell.
The reason people say "It's Hell!" wasn't to excuse the bad things people do. It was an explanation to people who were upset that there were bad people in the show. Tons of people were upset that the protagonist weren't good people, and people said "It's Hell!" not as an excuse, but in a "What were you expecting?!" kind of way.
Exactly
This
Not quite. After the release of the first episode of the new season, the card "it's hell, it's okay to be evil" to justify what was done to the character of Stella. If in the first season it was a woman taking revenge on her husband for cheating on her and publicly humiliating her, now it's an evil bitch that has always been evil, because this is hell, and therefore Solas did nothing wrong.
@@user-xl2it6wg1l in my opinion, stella wasnt a character to begin with, in the beginning, she was always like this, if you listen to their argument carefully in EP 2, she sounds less upset about the cheating and more upset over "I CANT BELIEVE YOU SLEPT WITH AN **IMP**" Implying that shes just angry he did it with an imp, not that he cheated. When stolas mentioned a motel, she also went "LIKE A F--KING PLEBIAN?!" In the same episode. So, people who think stellas character was reduced are wrong here, it was always this way.
@@user-xl2it6wg1l No, the original sentiment of "It's hell, what did you expect?" Was directed at the people who were outraged about Hazbin Hotel having that news announcer woman say something extremely homophobic.
They were claiming that the show was homophobic for having that character in it. When it's pretty obvious she's a bad person (in HELL) and it's really weird to claim that the show in any way supports what she said.
Not to excuse the behavior, but to say that the show isn't glorifying it (*cough* unlike a certain unfinished book series that was mentioned in the video *cough*).
Hot take:
Hell doesn't dole out punishments, its the demon's and sinner's own self-destructive behaviors that do the torturing.
This is a spoiler for the Netflix show Lucifer:
Humans choose to go to hell by their own guilt and can literally walk out at any given time to heaven I believe? They literally are held their by their own guilty subconscious and then Lucifer is regarded to as the Evil one despite not forcing any souls to go there.
@@cherriierr6955 As side note that is not how hell actually work in theology. Well... in bible hell doesn't actually exist and Christ promised us New Earth. With only those worthy deserving to live in this new world. Quite ironically heaven is inhabited by eldritch abominations considering fallen (the humans) as traitors. So being forced to return there would probably not be too nice (Sheol is actually a underworld, it is described as dark, but it is not actually bad place). But in a sense this show is more accurate then people think. Being boiled in cauldron was always pop-novel bullshit. Divina Commedia and Paradise Lost are literal pop novels comparable to Lucifer TV show. As side note, Morningstar is nickname of Archangel Raziel not Samael. Those are separate entities. Somehow people forget that Raziel actually win the trial with prosecutor (Satanael). Revelation 22 16
@@TheRezro Ohh that’s actually interesting I read your whole paragraph actually. I think they weren’t 100% accurate on purpose to appeal to teens and young adults more and add more of a modern twist- Lucifer Morningstar has a good ring to it you know? But yeah that makes sense in a way- SPOILER WARNING!!!
Because hell was revealed to never actually Exist, Humans only saw it as hell because their guilty complexes sent them there. Lucifer became a therapist for lost souls to help them pass out go. I believe I also read a poem for paradise lost? It mentioned some of the dynamics I saw in Lucifer (Tv Show) but it was more generalized in a sense, like the whole poem was basically about Daddy issues, I remember reading it for a class for AP English for a nature vs nature Debate in regards in to Frankenstein.
@@cherriierr6955 Well, yes. I seriously doubt that they put much of though. Like Geotia isn't real demonology, but rather medieval fan fiction. Just that by coincidence some elements more align with actual believes. As side note, if writers would be clever then Satan from the show would be actually descendent of Azazel, original king of Hell. And then defeated by angels, thanks to treason of Satan the Serpent. Whose name as associated with treason was forced on descendants of Azazel. When his descendants were posing as Lucifer (a Peacock Angel). Who actually went underground creating own deep state (aka he is Paimon). But that is just my suggestion.
@@TheRezro Given that Ba'al, El, and Yam/Yaw are all from the Proto-Cannanite Ugaritic pantheon and modern conceptions of hell are a result of New Testament depictions of guilt, zoroastrianist depiction of good vs evil, and various mythological inspirations converted from benign daemons, aetheral spirits, pagan/celtic gods, fae creatures, and pantheon gods into evil demons, most notably Uranʊs/Hades in Tartarus, it's almost as if the writings of the religious are literally just headcanons that evolve and and change overtime like any other folk stories. This is why I enjoy learning about the evolution and cataloging of fairytales and folk history, but dislike active belief in religion.
For me I have always seen saying "it's hell"
As a way of saying you shouldn't be surprised that bad things happen in a place where it wants you to selfish
Me to
so far, ive only seen this guy(channel) take it a different way. Then he rants in this video with his own misguided interpretation as a guide.
That's how I use it, too. Like I've used it with Stella not to say her actions were okay, but to say 'it's not unreasonable that someone that ridiculously terrible would be in Hell.' Like her saying 'I want to torment you' seems cartoonish, but this is a world where her just wanting to torment someone would probably be more socially acceptable than a more complex emotional reason for her actions.
Exactly, the whole reason of hell is to put BAD people in a TERRIBLE place. They are obviously not going to be good so why are people complaining about it? These guys comparing hell to other beliefs but this hell isnt meant to be like the vikings hell or whatever.
@@Zlyde007 So i assume you take OP’s assumption as fact
I think the point is "it's hell, what did you expect" not "it's hell, so that means it's okay". The reason they're in hell is because these things are depicted to be not okay.
The ones with healthy relationship, like Moxie and Millie, are a very major outliar as seen by everyone else's reactions to them.
Exactly, people are getting hung up on the word choice and not the meaning.
Everyone understands that the show would be unlikeable if EVERY character in it was a total piece of shit, but that’s what makes the main characters stand out more when they behave differently.
Here, when a demon from hell acts like sociopath, it’s *expected* but not *okay* .
Yeah, the main characters are still literal murders for hire on a mainstream circuit. That only works within the context that they're demons living in Hell.
This exactly like don’t be surprised about it😭
This is exactly what I was thinking.
💯 👏
Yeah, like when I point out that it's Hell with Stella, I'm not doing it to say anything about her is okay. I'm doing it to point out that it's not necessarily bad writing to have her be that terrible, because it wouldn't be Hell if there weren't *some* people who were shitty, narcissistic and genuinely not trying to be decent people.
The way Hell is portrayed in Vivziepop's lore seems to be less of a punishment for sinners for what they did wrong, and more of a place where they get enabled to continue to do what they did in life, with little to no repercussions, so they won't have a reason to better themselves and heal from their problems.
In a way, it's the perfect punishment, that one doesn't realize they're recieving it since it works on a more subtle, psychological level.
And as we see with Moxxie and Millie, and especially with Blitzo, Stolas and Fizz when they were babies, it's clear that cynicism and harshness is not inherent in imps and demons' nature: just like here on Earth, it's a process, a result of what you experience on life.
This Hell is, in other words, a mirror of what happens on Earth. Take away the demon aesthetic and red all around, and you get basically very human characters that are trying to get through with everything that they can.
This comment needs more likes cuz you said it my guy
ikr
Heaven also seems to be a mirror of Earth. It reminds me of the Supernatural Heaven, where it wasn't the paradise it should've been, and awful people were in charge, and there was a full on war. Good Angels like Castiel fell, angels forced Dean to torment a demon which just damn near broke the man, and didn't feel an ounce of remorse. Honestly at least Hell they're HONEST about what they are and what they do. Al was even upfront about why he wanted to help Charlie; he wants to watch people try and fail cause he think it'll be funny. I'm sure there's some hidden motive, but for now upfront. Heaven seems to be modeled after the "Gilded America" era. Where the outside was NICE AND SHINY but the inside was rotten as sht.
Hm it does punish them in some way, because all of them are fully unleashed, any of them could be the victim of one another. They create each other's hell so to speak. It just creates a giant circle of abuse and pain all over, that they cannot escape from not even with their usual shits. For their crimes to work, most need "innocent people" to be the majority so they can take from them in whatever way. They're all dependent on others being better than themselves in a sense, for things to go their way, mostly. Here they're left with just one another. Again. The other people are hell.
In a way I feel that is the ultimate punishment. Sure, you may be _happy_ doing what you do, but you get no real fulfillment outside of a rush of energy. You feel no need to better yourself, and because of that eternity is truly a curse because there’s really no way to spend it outside of committing every crime imaginable, once that list ends there’s only you, so what is there to do about yourself when you feel no motivation to nurture that question?
A constant need in human life is the desire to improve one’s self. Be it emotionally, intellectually, morally, or physically; when there’s no reason or no motivation to try doing that then you lose a core part of your humanity. And with the way Hell is, eventually all other humane desires you might have will be wiped along with it, that’s true Hell. It makes sense that Charlie recognized this and tries to put the pieces back together for the denizens of Hell who don’t feel that they can.
When people say it's hell, we're not excusing the actions of the characters. We're saying "yes, it is awful. That's the point."
People nowadays can't handle their own consequences. So they asked for it. Thank you vivziepop
@@aliezahjuarez1212 The hell are you talking aobut?
@@mrscruffles801 vizviepop
If "It's Hell, it's literally where the worst people go, that's the whole point of the location, so of course there are some of the worst people on earth there" isn't valid, I don't know *what* is. **For the most part** we're not excusing their behavior by saying it, we're saying "Hey, shitty people be shitty people and go to the unpleasant place, don't be surprised when you see shitty people in the shitty place"
The whole point of Viv's Hell is that it actively enables everyone's worst inclinations, rewarding them for being as selfish and exploitative as possible.The setting absolutely influences their behavior and perpetuates sin, as they have no reason to change themselves and are constantly being victimized by the powerful. It's like sending a gambling addict to Vegas, where everything is purpose built to exacerbate and exploit that sickness.
I don't think that was the point of this video. The point of this video was to highlight that in the world of this series, the words "Hell" and "demon" really have no meaning on their own. Hell could be like any place, and any place could be like Hell. So simply sticking the label of "Hell" on any argument as to why things are the way they are has no validity.
@@bencrispe9562 You can move out of Vegas, or Dubai, or Cairo, or some other horrible place. In fact, people do and go on to be better people.
You literally cannot leave Hell. It's all there is and it's everywhere.
@@nosorab3 Even if you can't leave, that doesn't really change anything. Hell, in this universe, is just another fantasy world. Even if you can't leave, the place you can't leave is the size of a whole planet, so might as well do your best with what you have.
The issue that's being pointed out here is that there is nothing physically stopping Hell from being an actual good place to live. It's all on the citizens, however, since the rulers don't seem to care about them at all. And the logistics of building a better society are extremely difficult without a massive amount of cooperation.
So Hell is a bad place to live in practice, but it could be a nice place to live in theory.
Which is why it’s so taboo when Charlie reveals her plan. It’s like someone from a soup kitchen entering a major mafia headquarters. Like “Why the fuck are you here, snowflake?”
@@bencrispe9562 the it's hell that I always took it as is the ethos of the defeatist nature that was mentioned. Sinners: "Why should I try to be better? I'm already in hell."
Imps: "why shouldn't I kill maim steal or do copious amounts of narcotics? Indulge in all there is? It's not like hell can be better. Its what it is and it always will be."
The Stella argument I always felt didn't apply to 'its hell' more 'the upper crust is intolerant of the lower class and any attack on their status."
Why is that? Because that mimics reality. Which allows any form of retribution for the affront of attacking either status or wealth.
JUST because someone might be in Hell, doesn't make them an INNATELY bad person. Case n point = Charlie Morningstar (I know I know Magne was her name BUT it's now Morningstar get used to it). Moxxie also exhibits traits of being a decent person. Blitz is emotionally constipated, but tries his best. Angel Dust exhibits moments of remorse, moments of empathy. Yet he's also in Hell. Vaggie is a mixed bag it's clear she's not above violence, but it's shown for now it's to defend Charlie, so there's a sense of morality there. The whole point of Hazbin Hotel is to see if you CAN be redeemed. I'm going to guess that even if Charlie does succeed at least once, that it will be by the time the next CLEANSING comes around, causing absolute chaos. I'm calling it now I think there's going to be a moment of Charlie in danger, and someone from this oddball group will have to make a tough call regarding her. Save her or not. Again, showing that MORALITY is a SPECTRUM here.
Stella is a bad person, but not because "it's Hell."...she's a bad person because of her own choices, her upbringing. If she was a human being, it would be the same. Alastor is another example of how there's a SPECTRUM of people in Hell just like on Earth. He THRIVES on chaos, and THRIVES on being just an absolute monster. He doesn't have his own territory, he roams as he please because HE KNOWS no one is going to mess with him. I mean THERE'S A REASON why people call him THE RADIO DEMON. He goes on Live Air to SHOWCASE him TORTURING people. Just for the hell of it. BUT him being in Hell and him DOING all of the Radio Demon, torturey things IN HELL is NOT what makes him a bad person. The SETTING is not why he's a bad person. HE WAS ALWAYS A BAD PERSON IN LIFE. He gets his kicks off other people's pain, he was a cannibalistic serial killer. That's why he's a bad person; his own choices. Same with Stella, same with Lucifer, same with anyone.
There's REASON why the fanfic tag "Alastor is in Hell For a Reason" EXISTS. And it should be used more vs "Good Alastor" or "Alastor Has a Heart" or some sht. Cause then YOU'RE NOT WRITING ALASTOR. You're just writing what you WANT Alastor to be. And then you fundamentally misunderstand his character. That's why he states "the chance they had was the life they lived before, the punishment is THIS! There is no undoing what's been done." he accepts who and what he is. Why the fandom can't fathom this, I have no idea.
@u know me I don’t know you
Bruh, Moxxie and Blitzo are good people to you but don't you remember all the killings and massacre they commit lol
I’m probably not gonna read this, but good job managing to write that
@@mr.potatothewise1261 TLDR; there's a spectrum of morality in the Hell Vivziepop created. Some people are innately good people like Charlie, some are innately bad people like Alastor. Some are in the middle like Moxxie, Millie, Blitz. They exhibit good traits, but still do bad things like murder for money.
@@TheRibottoStudios true, just because they call it “hell” doesn’t mean it has anything to do with our hell
This hell could literally be anything, there’s worse people in rick and morty which takes place in “the real world” but the people in that show act nothing like actual people
If i were to describe Viv's version of hell in the best way possible, it would be "like a sketchy-looking nighborhood in a low income/class area, where bad stuff happens because people living there are trying to survive, not because they are bad people"
Yeah, the entire series does have a ghetto like sorta vibe
Including the rapists and cannibals?
The thing about Viv's version of hell is that it exists in a perpetual dissonance between competing concepts of "sinner," then chooses which concept to honor completely by whim.
You can't say, "Everyone in hell is just oppressed for the crime of free will, it's not fair" and also depict it as full of serial killers and child predators.
If you portray the rulers of heaven (such as Adam) as vile, foulmouthed, misogynistic, and bloodthirsty, which is something that _true_ Christianity condemns but American Evangelical right-wing pseudo-Christianity exemplifies, then you haven't written Heaven and Hell, you've written your own universe.
Bayonetta, Darksiders, a hundred other games and books and shows, they all copy/paste the exact same portrayal of Heaven Vs Hell in their own human terms born of personal trauma inflicted by religion-abusing sinners. It's _always_ the scrappy multicultural underdogs of free will vs the oppressive white fascists. It's entirely based on a bias that all religious leaders are inherently morally corrupt, spiteful, hateful creatures. Yes, many of them are, but they do not represent what the religion is truly about. _They_ will be the ones burning in the hell they say they believe in once they die.
It's a pity we never see that explored... the concept of a Heaven and Hell that truly are just in judgment, even if from the author's perspective. No, it's always the super-obviously-evil hypocrites in charge of an entire system that's corrupt to the core, and poor ol' Lucifer just wanting to give us free will (and don't think too hard about the rapists and pedophiles).
... I'm sorry but this video seems very confusing to me. When people say "it's X" they don't say it as a justification, they use it as an overall explanation for why things are so horrible. Like where does this whole misinterpretation even come from? I've never understood it. It seems like a wild assumption, an unintentional mischaracterization, and it's pretty damn common especially on somewhere like Twitter. At this point I genuinely want to know why do so many people think it's being used as a justification rather than an explanation of why those bad things exist. What creates the mindset where this is the automatic assumption? Assuming things and then forming an argument based on that interpretation is a huge mistake. i thought people in high school are taught to avoid assuming things as much as possible when making essays... It's like one of the main points in literature: do not assume things. If you make a false interpretation, all of your following text will be null because of it.
Of all the comments here yours hit the nail on the coffin. I was confused about the argument as a whole and the examples of different shows and animes to relate to the "It's Hell" argument. Other than that I took it as the setting doesn't define the characters it is the characters that define the setting. Or I was doing my own research on Realism Film theory and literature just to state that Viziepop is using her reflection of how our world and society are and use our world to make a version of Hell for her two amazing series.
This is exactly what I was looking for tbh. This dude and so many others completely missed the point of the argument and then go to write long ass paragraphs like this based off their assumptions without realizing how wrong they are. Obviously nobody is excusing these characters for being problematic but the whole point of the show is that they're bad people in hell, why do you expect them to not be problematic. The setting tells you everything you need to know about most of these characters because they're there for a reason.
Yeah, I absolutely do not understand this person's argument.
One of his early points is having a medieval European setting not being an excuse to... explore how people actually acted in medieval Europe? Characters having poor morals doesn't mean the author endorses their actions. At the end of the day, a story is just a story. If someone can't handle a setting then they don't need to actively engage with it.
People have trouble just moving on these days.
@@ZombieOfun forreal people also need to understand a person's art should not be associated with the creators character if the creator for some reason draw a person killing another then raping the corpse I know this is a weird example but would you think the author is the type if person who would do that
Can you take the channel over pls. This is a better take
You're running into the argument that DnD players have been dealing with for years. These people are not inherently evil, that much is obvious. The premise of Hazbin Hotel actually leans into that- the people are people, but they live in a culture designed to beat them down and push them towards evil. The standard set by their society and even their "gods" is deliberately at nearly the rock bottom. I don't use "it's Hell" as an excuse for "so Stella did nothing wrong", I use it as "it's Hell" to say "so don't expect anyone to be blameless".
I assume what you mean by Dnd is character alignments ? Or are you referring to the games lore?
@@sirpaladinknight5491 I doubt he talks about the lore, as he would show that he does not understand any race that's literal representation of alignments in DnD.
@@morelstrike I'm specifically referring to the lore and alignment of "inherently evil" playable races like the Drow, Yuan-Ti, and various monstrous humanoids. Most of them have evil patron or progenitor gods that actively push them towards evil cultures, and there's decades of precedent that when removed from that environment, they turn out as well adjusted and normal as anybody else.
I agree, as a fellow dice nerd, diverging slightly from the topic at hand - I have always hated the alignment system in D&D, and by association, the "alignment planes" and their denizens, such as the devils of the Hells and the demons of the Abyss. Each of these Outer Planes is a physical manifestation of concepts, like "good" or "chaos", and the denizens are supposed to be the embodiments thereof. This relic of old thinking that is still present in the game world/lore is a giant open sore that really takes away from the experience, and people like me are tired of it.
I write fiends as creatures that sustain themselves by feeding on, and instigating, mortal emotion - Whether that emotion is "good" or "evil". And this is because the spiritual energy of the mortal in question shifts in frequency when they experience that emotion, becoming a frequency the fiend can absorb. These fiends in my world are merely echoes of humanity that grow until they are snuffed out. Classical demon-types feed on "negative" emotions, like pain, rage, greif, lust, agony, fear, confusion and etc., while classical angelic beings are fiends that feed on good emotions, like pleasure, gratefulness, joy, curiosity, exhilaration, satisfaction, and so forth. These are more human than humans are, facets of human existence given form.
Celestials in my world aren't angelic and good, but rather cosmic beings, bordering on the eldritch - Be they the deities, their servants, or something older. These are the cogs in the machine that keep life turning, be it by creating order where reality is falling apart, or by instigating chaos where reality is growing stagnant. They are benevolent, but cold - Reality, existence, life - They have no sympathy or care for the individual, only that the job they do is done to keep the world running.
Topical digression concluded, "It's Hell" both is, and is not, a good excuse - If only because the show itself is somewhat grey on just how much this world "is" hell as we're used to understanding it. Obviously the characters are incredibly human - A large portion of them used to be - And as they're written by a *team* of humans as opposed to a single mind, there are going to be inconsistencies, especially with the gap between the pilots and the show that has since continued. At a glance, this isn't the hell we're used to seeing.
But on the other side of things, perhaps it once was - And the great population that grew there eventually started building a reflection of earth amongst the fire. It isn't unlike humanity to look at a barren hell-on-earth place of extreme cold and ice, arid wastelands, dense overgrowth and strange creatures, or the maddening depths of the ocean, and say "I wanna put a house here". We put people on the moon for the love of fuck, however briefly.
So to say that humanity didn't immediately start terraforming what they could in this dark reflection of a world is silly - We gather resources and we build stuff, that's what we do. Maybe that wasn't the original plan and some among the clouds don't like it, but nonetheless the problem is contained and Hell is doing its job - Containing fallen angels and sinners. Perhaps when humanity gained a foothold in Hell is when the Cleansing started, only for heaven to realize they couldn't wipe out all of the people that were doing this because more just popped up and went to work.
Now we look at the Hell we're presented in the show and understand - This was once that wild west free-for-all wasteland we are used to imagining it as, but we're getting a peek into how much it's changed since Dante was there, just like the present on Earth is different from the way it was even 200 years ago. The old ways are still undertones - The same way racism, homophobia and blatant evangelical superiority complex permeate our otherwise modern culture - But the general populace of hell isn't suffering because of the environment anymore, they're suffering because of each other.
But the oldest denizens of hell still remember the old ways, and pull the strings to torture those under them in a new way - Using the civilization mankind built in the fiery depths, instead of the flames themselves. They live lavishly and take advantage of the general populace, taking out their ancient malice on them while simultaneously making gains from the opportunity. That's why they themselves allowed humanity to grow - A king with no subjects is a commoner with a crown.
So yes, this *was* hell - But it's something else now, a New World. And while the "It's Hell" argument still flies to a degree in my opinion, it should be disregarded when talking about characters since honestly the argument's validity should be taken as an undertone, just as Old Hell is.
But this is all just a theory.
You know that Extra Credits did a tactic like that and it fail right?
I mean everyone in Helluva Boss are pretty terrible people anyways without the “its hell” argument. Every main character either kills for money, cheating on their wife, abusive, or has done some other shit. Octavia is pretty much the only one i would describe as a good person.
Octavia seems like a normal person not even a necessarily *good* one.
She is considered to be the lesser evil, really.
@@fruitloops2058 Call it decent if you want we’re both just talking about the same thing.
@@fruitloops2058 that really depends, we haven't really seen her do anythig bad yet, but mostly because she doesn't have that munch of screentime outside her relationship with Stolas. If anything, she is probably the most decent person (alongside with Charlie) in hell so far.
@@despinasgarden.4100 well let's classify some things they will born hell people who are born on the surface but when the hell after death do get punished to an extent for example their condemned to the pride ring they cannot go to any other
Yeah I don't get it. The video opened up by explaining how Vikings in these shows have their actions explained because it's the culture in their world, then says that the same does not apply to Helluva Boss, and then proceeds to explain how the culture of Hell is everyone has given up and decided to be their worst selves. What? If you admit that's the culture of Hell, there's no difference between the Demons and the Vikings. They are both fitting in to how their societies act.
I think a better take away is just because it's more acceptable doesn't mean it's good, or that we have to accept it as the audience. Killing in offense is always going to be seen as morally unacceptable no matter who you tell it to, or why
OK but vikings are fucking awesome
I think the best way to describe Viv's hell is the saying "hell is just other people", because when you put a bunch of terrible people together in one place, they're going to hurt each other constantly. Even if you're an overlord, you're not necessarily much safer than anyone else there. And while I the "it's hell" argument has a little bit of merit, people use it way too much for just about everything they can think of
"It's Hell. What do you expect?" is what I always say when people are upset towards the protagonist who is a bad person. Not "It's Hell so their behaviors are acceptable" kind of way.
I think "it's hell" can be used:
Not to say "it's hell and they are evil"
But to say "it's hell and they are allow to do it"
No im pretty sure most ppl use it refering to the 1st one, not an excuse for their actions
“its hell, what did you expect?”
@@iareolmedo7838 i know but i'm saying that is how it should be used, i agree that most people just use "it's hell" as an excuse
This is a perfect example of “just bc it’s normalized doesn’t mean it’s justified “
I don't think the show is trying to portray the actions as "good", just that they're accepted in-universe.
Dude you never explained what those “problematic elements” are- I understand the point you’re making about the world-building, but what are you trying to argue..?
Honestly the fact that Helluva boss is set in hell helps it a lot as an adult show. It makes sense that a vast majority of the characters are addicts and jerks because it is hell. It is not an excuse but a fleshing out of the world. Being evil is the default norm in this world. Which makes it all the sweeter when characters are good to one another. They are defying the effects of their environment and in the case of Charlie, actively trying to redeem characters who do not want redemption in a world when redemption is seemingly impossible. One of the problems we see in a lot of adult cartoons is the tone tends to be too meanspirited. The novelty of selfish jerks being selfish jerks to each other wears off over time and is very difficult for writers to pull off. The fact that helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel stars a bunch of demons and sinners in hell is a clever way to surmount that hurdle.
T h i s is 100% the charm of the show
Wow, that’s actually a very good point
Exactly that's literally the entire plot of the show basically
Contrasts! Is always contrasts!
I don’t think I used the phrase clever to describe the choice to set the series in hell. It’s kind of the joke in adult animation that setting your show in hell to tell no no jokes is incredibly played out
I told someone that Stella doesnt need a reason to be who she is because its hell. Not that it excuses her, no I was saying that it doesn't. I was explaining that no, Stella doesn't need some sad backstory because the answer could well be 'she is a rich person in hell. Hell's society isn't particularly friendly.' simple
The reason that that explanation seems like a problem is because that’s not the inherent answer based on the how the story has been told. If Viv simply put that as the answer it would be fine. But because she has answers to why other characters are terrible (the situation their in, money, power, upbringing) then it would makes sense for her to answer why this character is terrible. Even if the answer is that she’ll terrible because she just is, that’s something that needs to be given to the audience and not inferred. Since most of the other characters have reasons for being terrible then logically this character must have a reason as well.
And that makes Stella a boring character. I like Helluva Boss but the lack of compelling villains is holding the show back. Striker was a home run, but then there were the Cherubs, Dhorks, and Stella who would fill the villain role nicely except they lack depth to their characters.
Stella, crucially, is driving a main plot line for Stolas so it sucks that "because hell" is apparently the excuse for why she's a bitch.
N-no.. Stella is a secondary character an antagonist to Stolas just like how Stryfe is a antagonist to Blitz and everyone at IMP. They are characters written for their roles. And you know what? Some times people are just plain fucking bad/evil.
@@viraltang This honestly. People keep thinking that a tragic backstory and justification is what makes a character interesting. I saw the same thing when people tried to justify slavery in Primal when talking about the vikings. Slavery shouldn't be justified. In Primal's story and setting, the vikings are evil. Just like the t-rexes that ate Spear and Fang's families, the vikings captured and enslaved Mira and her people. The show doesn't justify why the did that other then brutal survival because that's what the setting demands and is what the story is about. And the vikings aren't interesting because they "gave their slaves food and a house," but because they still have human emotions we can understand, despite them still being objectively the bad guys.
And in Helluvaboss, Stella is just an abusive wife because that's what the story needs. She doesn't need a backstory to justify toxic abuse. Because her contribution to the story isn't herself, but what she (as a villain) can do for the rest of the story, specifically Stolas's development.
No one is saying that Stella needs a tragic backstory, stop bringing this argument. People are infuriated not that Stella was made a bitch for no reason, but that the creators completely remade the characters of Stella and Solas at the beginning of the second season. The creators of the show decided to give a "tragic backstory" to Stolas, completely removing all blame and all responsibility for cheating from him and shifting all this to Stella. If in the first season they both had pros and cons, now there is not even the illusion of choosing who to root for. Just because they needed to push the damn ship through.
Hell is just our world, spiraled into the worst cesspool. Victims like Angel Dust continued to be abused, Abusers like (pick one) thrive in the society
In a weird way, Viziepop's version of hell is kind of a metaphor for America. It started out with a glorious purpose, a way to rise up against their oppressors and gain a new better way of life and a second chance, free of the shackles that bound them to an abusive and parasitic system. Instead, it devolved into a desperate free-for-all where everyone is searching desperately for a way out or up the ranks of the system with everyone looking to tear each other down instead of pursuing their own happiness and the people at the top feeding the flames because it benefits them.
You mean the whole world right? Doesn’t just happen in America. 🤡
@MultiSuperguy101 Um. No? Obviously this happens in other countries too but the parallel I speak to is unique to the US because the political and societal system, as well as the historical context it's key values were constructed on, are the only one of it's kind, just like any other nation.
If you feel like debating my point, feel free to because I had been referring only to the US and I would be interested in an alternative point of view.
@@MultiSuperguy101I don't think you read the comment you're replying to correctly
I think at the very least theres a baseline immorality that comes with your setting being hell, these people kill as part of their job and are actual demons. Idk what people are excusing (watched more of the video, now I know) by yeah, some characters in these shows can be cruel by hell standards.
As in, being evil killers doesn't make you act like one, in hell that's just a basic job from what I can tell. Moxxie as an example is an upstanding man by earth standards aside from the fact that he is good at killing humans, but in hell, he's still basically called a wuss at every point because of cultural values. Even if there exists members of this unique society that would want a loving relationship.
It's unique, so I understand the frustration of basically taking every narrative trope of hell and tacking it to this unique world that's been built.
in regards to your edit, i've watched the whole video and am still trying to figure out what people are excusing. care to help me out?
Even the murder isn't necessarily as terrible as it is in real life; in reality, we don't know for certain what happens to people when they die. We can't see them or communicate with them any more, all we know is that they're gone forever. IMP doesn't have that perspective. They know, for a fact, that the people they kill will go to hell or (on occasion) to heaven. What's more, the sinners they kill occupy a higher place in the infernal social hierarchy than the imps themselves do. Our main characters are *from* hell, and they don't see it as such a terrible place.
@@wayronhelloneighborcontent9810 It's things like Stella being abusive or the act of cheating. People throw out "it's Hell" to try and downplay or just outright brush away the problematic nature of an action when it's presented as such.
@@madamaonyx8844 ohh okay, that's understandable.
I think that's the crux of it though. While I definitely agree with his stance, I think the problem is OUR world often excuses abuse and other bad actions or tendencies like cheating or people just try to do so because they love a character and a lot of people can't seem to accept that this character is someone who's legit problematic so they're trying to "defend" the character as if they were a friend. In some cases this can be justified, like bad writing that doesn't comprehend where it went wrong or that it had some seriously missed potential, and in others they're being willfully oblivious because it doesn't match their interpretation of events. So, yeah, I think inherently while he hit the nail on the head about hell involving late-stage capitalism and exploitative hierarchies with heaven as the oppressors who've created and reinforced an environment where their victims help by oppressing others and themselves, but he missed the fact that because we're not that dissimilar, that's why fans are trying to look for handy-dandy excuses to stand up for their faves.
lol "It's hell" is almost the same as "the devil made them do it" in a way. It's just their choice for trying to come to terms with it and hand-wave things. I don't think they're right but I understand why they're doing it and it's actually because our world is unfortunately so similar... and in general this kind of reaction is really common and one of the many reasons I think we're seeing a huge uptick in character redemption arcs, some of which are great and others that might not pan out as well, as well as generational trauma exploration narratives. Not just because people raised in a more aware generation are now at the helm of our current media but because it's a big trend especially among fandom communities and their content. But IDK maybe I'm assuming too much.
I've had a long time to come to terms with my love of a very problematic character (different fandom.) I still love him and probably woobie him more than I should (I enjoy making him suffer as kind of a karmic justice but it also feeds into his bad attitude so it's a win-win for me) and while I try explaining him, showing his internal logic for how he reconciles his awful actions, I try not to excuse him... which I'm aware is a really easy slope to trip and fall down. We all just want to love our faves and sometimes we try to redeem them. And there's nothing wrong with that, fanfiction and fanart is built on the backs of grand speculation and "what if?" scenarios. Hell, the media we love often does this as well! So I don't knock people for having fun with that aspect.
It's just unfortunate when you have, as author examples, EL James getting called out for how she romanticizes abuse and then her doubling down, trying to normalize some truly terrible shit. She's not the only one; a lot of writers do this as well (probably some other published writers too, she just got popular off low-effort and received a lot of hate for this and that.) There's the rub; it's one thing if you write it and you're honest about what it is. We enjoy drama and trauma, it creates excitement and something to overcome, and we hope for justice or a good ending for someone in the setting. It's just awful when people are so neck-deep in denial, either from their own past experiences, their cultural and family upbringing, or both, and they can't admit or can't even recognize when something is truly horrifying because people in power get away with it so it seems normal or as if no one cares. :(
It's true, just because these characters live in Hell that doesn't mean that they are pure evil whether they are demon or sinner they just try to live normal lives like anyone else.
Everyone in that is in hell is a sinner and our mc are literaly murders for higher there not good people
Stoles is probably the only good person along with stella but even then there not to clean
@@MurakiChiyo why would they be referring to anything but the cartoon💀
Specifically in this show sure
Still you cant really overlook the things they do tho
Yeah except you never had to be pure evil to be on hell in the first place. Just self-serving. You could never hurt another soul and still be sinful. And if you know that your culture is one of many and the rest look down on you, you can make comparisons why and probably come to the conclusion that all the things that demons do to anger one another, angers everyone else the same and everyone else is not doing that. If they know murder and theft is bad, yet still do it to survive, that's still a sin.
@@MurakiChiyo I watched this and I don't care.
Pretty strange that people, who were sent somewhere for being bad, are in general bad people. But I'm too busy trying to figure out how carrots are still carrots after I cut them.
true, however also worth noting that only sinners and fallen angels are cannonically "sent there for being bad" imps, hellhounds and succubi are born and raised there, they're in a shitty living situation their whole lives because of the sinners, but they aren't inherently there for being bad people. theyre just there.
i think sarcastic chorus is talking specifically about helluva boss?
@@gingermaniac5484 yh but if you grow up and live around loads of bad people ur probably not gonna be an angel
"They think they might as well just be their worst if their best wasn't good enough" this statement hit me on a personal level.
The demon Lords that reside in hell chose to follow Satan, and all the sinners sent there had a life on earth, they could have chosen to follow God, and accept Jesus Christ as the Lord and savior. They are no longer redeemable for a second chance at grace.
"We're going to make a show in hell... but we're going to make sure we don't cross any moral lines"
"And no one is going to care or watch it."
This kind of twitter level over analysis is what pisses everyone off. Helluva of Boss is no one's enemy unless they believe all entertainment can only be Hallmark channel level.
"It's Hell" isn't an excuse, it's a reason, it's a _theme_ . The purpose of the show isn't to be anyone's or society's moral compass. Does it have to be the purpose of _every_ show to be that? The Christian fundamentalist right is over there, if you'd like. If anyone takes bad lessons away from this, that's the person's problem.
The show is supposed to be very dark. Nonetheless good story telling generally demands people find some way to emphasize with the characters (because we the audience are human, not demons)
💯
….where did it say it was suppose to be dark? It’s an part office comedy part romcom that happens to be taking place in hell and the main couple is same sex. Of the rings in hell only ONE of them even have sinners. The rest of hell is basically just a world of monsters that’s hardly any different for ours if anything (with a nod to Blitzø) it just an edgier version of My Little Pony FiM.
It’s hell is most definitely an excuse when you use it to justify inter relationship abuses and violations when there are example of healthy ones in the same show. Why would Blitzø,Verosika,Stolas, be broken hearted over relationships failing if there was never an expectation of them being healthy and succeeding? Why would Millie be punished for having a neighbor kill count? Millie’s parents and M&M are some of the healthiest relationships in media and they mow down a stadium of humans with out a 2nd thought.
‘It’s hell’ can excuse not caring for humans and the fact that every one there are demons….but this is ViviziePop’s Hell it’s her Hell that that says that there are different types of demons, 7 rings, 9 circles, an overall circus aesthetic, her hell has hell born demons who love each have families, have healthy interpersonal relations, they have fire departments, hospitals, orphanages, they love and except their trans children they have dirt bags sure and just genuinely good people…who just happen to be hell hounds, or Imps, or Goetia
@@Cangeltibon the pilot episode is about murdering a child
Cool uh… so the writers of the show seem at odds with wether this is a show about its setting or characters.
It could balance this but as it stands that’s not the case.
The characters act like normal people. Then occasionally they act out of character. This is not a problem of “people interpreting a setting differently” because up until recently the setting was second to characters.
It’s clear that the setting of hell does not effect the show because you could easily swap these characters out into a different setting and it would almost play entirely the same.
Now you have people hand waving legitimate criticisms of this CHARACTER DRIVEN SHOW because they and the show runners seem more interested in the setting. Now granted, it is a cool idea for a setting of a show. And This wouldn’t be a problem if the rest of the show was as interested in the setting but again, it is not. The show up until this point was about characters.
I mean come on. If it wasn’t a character driven show they wouldn’t have Brandon rogers, the TH-cam king of character sketch comedy, on as a head writer and leading VA.
You can see the problem on display with this most recent episode. The one episode that Brandon doesn’t write and suddenly we’re more focused on the world and the characters are acting out of character in order to explore the setting. Again, exploring the setting isn’t a problem, but it becomes one when we have so heavily invested the time into the characters. To switch focus away from that is bad writing and hurts the pacing of the show which then hurts my enjoyment of it.
“It’s hell” only works if it had always been about the setting. It wasn’t, so people acting uncharacteristic of themselves is bad. The end.
This show may be a work of independent creators but it should be held to the same standard of criticism as a full fledged network show. And given hazbin hotel will be a network show, helluva bosses inconsistent writing is a bad sign of things to come. I remain optimistic but if this goes south then I will judge this show as harshly as I would judge a network show.
And hey, if, and hopefully it will, if it goes great I’ll sing it’s praises.
@@Cangeltibon the first episode has a literal war going on. War is dark.
The pilot of Helluva Boss they killed a child.
What the fuck did you think you were watching
I don't think CHERUB ever said a single word about getting anybody into heaven, their whole thing was just preventing their targets from dying.
In that episode yes cuz that client was gonna kill himself but they usually try to make them do some good so that when they die they may(keyword) go to heaven.
@@flakesandbakez they weren't "trying to get him to do good" they were trying to get him to not kill himself, how wasn't important, they just tried to get him to see that meaning in life can come from philanthropy as a means to the end of no self die
@@bigdiccmarty9335 well you're wrong because they told him to spread his money to people that needed maybe you should go back and watch the episode
@@btschannel3667 you should read my comment again, I said they were trying to keep him from killing himself, they only tried to get him to be charitable as a means to that end, not as their main goal
@@bigdiccmarty9335 i was agreeing with them saying that in this ep the cherubs were trying to stop him from kill himself...
No one is trying to justify bad behaviour by saying it's hell. They were just trying to tell thin skinned people "what did you expect". Besides, what exactly is so problematic about it? Even if it is problematic why is that even a problem? it's a cartoon, it's not even on TV, you have to actively search for it so if it offends you who are you going to blame? If you are offended so what, nothing happens.
People need to be offended as just with childhood diseases you will build up a resistance to offence through exposure to it.
If Vizziepop's hell was designed as a punishment in universe, it's definitely the type of punishment where whoever designed it was just like
"I can't think of any worse torture than what you already put yourself through."
well this version of hell is actually pretty tame compared to the countless mythological depictions of hell where each circle is the visual representation of a particular sin. and its corresponding punishment. So yeah it couldve been done way worse morally and "problematically" Like theres a literally three circles for the sin of violence and the first ones punishment is boiling in a river of blood. oddly enough that ones the tamest among those 3 circles.
The tamest? What happens in the other 2?
@@chrismanning2888 Well in the dantes inferno version which is based on catholic mythology each circle embodies a specific sin starting in limbo where people who are not followers of god but have not committed a sin end up where they wait til judgement day slowly insane and losing their ability to think and free will. While in the circle of gluttony you are eaten alive by demons for eternity the punishments get worse as you go deeper but the farthest I got into the game was the 3 circles of violence I could never get past the second circle of violance. But from what Ive read the 3 circles of violance stand for violance against others violance against yourself and the third is violance against god. In violance against others the punishment is boiling in a river of blood in violance against yourself you wander aimlessly in a swamp that fills your mind with every guilt you have received in til you commit suicide over and over. Not sure what the punishment for violance against god was suppose to be never got that far in the game. By the way after the circles of violance is the circle of pride and supposidly thats where the devil lives and he personally deals out your judgement and punishment. Its considered to be the worst spot to end up in which is why it has the fewest sinners.
@@chrismanning2888 Oh sorry misinterpreted what you asked. Incase you dont want to read the long version. The three circles of violence are known as violence against others violence against yourself and violence against god. The first one is the less punishing as you boil in a river of blood. But in violance against yourself you wander a swamp that fills your mind with every sin you have committed til you commit suicide over and over and I forgot what happens in the violence against god one. Not sure how you would commit that to begin with.
@@chrismanning2888 Ring one is being nearly drowned in a river of boiling blood, ring two is a horrid forest where sinners are stood in place as gnarled trees and picked apart by harpies, and the third ring is a barren plain of scalding sand ignited by flakes of fire from the sky. The third ring is weird, because sinners were forced to walk, sit, or lay down on the hot sand- depending on how they had committed violence against God. (Usurers, Sodomites, and Blasphemers) Basically, the worse your crime against God, the more of your body had to be exposed to both the sky-fire and the hot sand. I hope that helps answer your question!
@peter "hey Louis, I found a bot"
I’d say it’s less an excuse but an explanation
Hell is of corse filled with degeneracy, deviants, outlaws, and the absolute worst in people
The fact there are good people shows that it’s possible the M&M’s or Chalie and vaggie
But of course like our world, it’s filled with people who genuinely deserve to be there, Striker a bounty hunter, Stella(probably a more tame aspect of abusive relationships, remember the guy at the pilot who killed his wife) Verosika(a literal succubus, whole purpose is getting souls by getting mortals to give into their lustful urges)
Just because people say it’s hell, at least to me, it’s not a excuse, but a reason to not expect anything more or less, but I can easily accept some people are better than others, I remember an analysis about the over population in hell, where some crimes don’t really seem to fit eternal damantion, rabies, fallen super hero’s, Crying babies, prescription drug abusers, from Charlie’s song
Exactly...whenever I use "its hell: its more as a "reason not justification" being in an area where bad behavior is praise and is the norm will lead to terrible people. I dont say what they're doing is not inmoral because of the setting, I don't think viziepop meant that (or I dont see it)
To back this up, honestly culture shock is a good example of this
Unless you go there in of itself, you won’t really know, but of course sometimes the stereotype is true, but that doesn’t mean every resident is going to be a crazed degenerate
@@reflection6401 millie and moxxie literally kill people lol
@@tobsonasanya4765 exaclty, but their not like someone like verosika
Ehm...what exactly was your point here. Well yeah in this version of hell not everyone is evil just cuz it's hell, but the hell does encourage evil and so there's a lot of evil. But the short version of that still sounds like "it's hell"
What are you trying to criticize here anyway, what exactly is problematic to you within the rules of the setting? Why are these things problematic and other aren't, where do you draw the line and why? Why do you want the problematic elements not be there ,what about them ruins the story?
I seriously don't understand what this video is supposed to be about.
I appreciate how you're a genuine fan of HB yet you're also very critical of the show and fan base. SO many people forget that you can do both nowadays
Just another perspective, I don't think the people who defend characters with problematic actions are justifying or defending the characters problematic actions as being the morally right thing (both in modern day context or within the setting's context be it with implicit or explicit background setup). They are more so defending the presence of the act itself, the "why did this character do this in the story". The people saying "it's Hell" could also possibly be saying it makes sense that a morally flawed character (any character they refer to) exist within the story not that it's okay for the character to act that way. However, some people do defend and justify the character's action within the story, but I don't think those people are justifying the action if it was reenacted by somebody in real life. Just my 2 cents~
This is gonna be a controversial video
He’s right though
@u know me bot
Aren’t they always
@@mr.potatothewise1261 he straw maned the entire reason people say it’s hell
@@superserpent4889 This 100%
If Alastor is that powerful just from being a serial killer during his life imagine how powerful Jack the Ripper must be
IKR
Or Hitler and Stalin 💀
@@justysiastrzelczyk8212 Probably some Ultrakill Prime Soul.they immediately sent all they had to stop those guys.
Bad people go to hell, it’s hell, what were you expecting?
I don't live on Helluva Boss twitter so maybe I'm taking this out of context, but since you didn't mention a specific use of the excuse 'oh, it's just hell' in a way the way people are using it incorrectly, I have no way to judge the veracity of your argument. It is made abundantly clear that the setting does inform the morality of its characters. It's literally the whole premise of Hazbin Hotel. So in my mind at least, that means that the externalities of the setting are informing the characters actions and motivations, like if someone commits wanton murder and it's treated as a joke by both the show and the characters in the show 'oh, it's just hell' seems like a perfectly good way of summarizing the way it's treated by everyone in the show. Not even Moxxie balks at murder so long as he can justify it in some way, and he's a cinnamon bun. So next time, please add some snippets of the arguments twitter is using that are wrong instead of attacking a generality that is in fact true but could be used in an uninformative or unhelpful way in regards to character analysis.
I admittedly use the "it's in hell" line in reference to the show, however I absolutely do not try to justify the horrible behaviour. It just gives me the chance to understand and explain, why they did this, not to try and defend them and call them a cinnamon roll after.
in the pilot they literally say "It's hell and no one fuckin' cares"
@@bigdiccmarty9335 that was a joke 😂
@@Pintrestcreatedmypersonialty aight
I will never forgive Stella for any reason, but I was pleased that we finally had somebody who was uncomplicated because those kinds of people exist in reality too. Finally, we had someone we could just hate without wondering what excuse they might have.
I guess from the newest episode we can take that the hellborn kids are pretty much like regular kids and the grownups Frick em up. I think vivzie also said that when a sinner dies, their very essence corrupts the objects and beings around them. That might also explain why they are the way they are?
FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT- who cares if its in hell, these are supposed to be characters not monsters. Treat em like normal people, not like demons. Ik theyre demons in actuality but honestly when judging them as characters that should be disregarded
Says treat them like normal people and completely ignores that where you are raised is apart of that. I don't think either of you know as much as you think.
It’s hell they are bad people
@@lunakingsley.7247 someone gets it brofist my dude 😎🤜
Watch the dam video XD
hell is just where we are but we see the bad parts more because it’s hell. and plus, don’t think we are any better.
I get the idea, but even looking at it this way I think "it's because they're in hell" is still a decent enough excuse. You can have social norms people don't like, and it's clear most of them hate being in hell, even if they have come to just accept being there. So people being angry about stealing and whatnot doesn't really break anything, if anything it makes sense because they'd be more likely to act vain and lash out at people for slights like that. The people born there are molded by the society that exists there and the people who die have proven that they're more than willing to act on their worse impulses.... Because they're in hell, you most definitely can assume that typically people are going to be fair more rude and at the very least are more inclined to be evil based on the fact they're in hell, because as you said, those kinda of actions are just the norm there, and everyone's to stuck throwing their pity party to change it. As for the angels trying to help the scientist, all they were trying to do was keep him from killing himself, and the moment he died he went straight to hell anyway, I doubt they were trying to change that, just help him be happy before he died, which sounds kinda angel-y to me.... The purges are kinda weird tho, still no clue what that's about.
I have no clue what Viv is doing with heaven, but angels in the bible are soldiers of God, not the typical guardians or paragons of good as we think of them now, there only purpose is too carry out gods will, so the purges could make sense from that point of view, but again not sure what Viv is doing with heaven so take what I just said with a grain of salt for this series
Wait.... Did this man's really just get mad at angels for trying to help people and demons being mad at people for stealing from them? Even looking past the whole "it's hell" thing, they're still people with their own thoughts, and we're shown that the succubus and all them are extremely vain, why the fuck would demons just let their shit get stolen by other demons? That doesn't make any sense. And of course the angels would wanna help a dying old man feel slightly less bad before he dies, they're angels. And attacking demons seems kinda... Normal for an angel to do, considering they're kinda polar opposites, even in the show.
Uh... Think u replied to the wrong comment?
@@xman2oo3 IM SORYR AHDHADHHSDHASHHHAHHAHHAHA jeez
It's all good, have urself a gud day
I don’t trust Vivziepop anymore.
Just gonna throw it out there:
Stella is not one-dimensional.
Just because her development is not what we might have expected doesn't make it "bad" character development; nor does it make a "character assassination". What little we did see of her perfectly lines up with her behaviour in the recent episode. She is still an abusive spouse, but it doesn't mean her personality is cardboard thin. A character with horrible personality does not equal a horribly written character.
More than that, we only at the first episode of second season - we might get more insight into her life and motivations, to which we haven't been privy to before.
Thank you so much for commenting this!! I agree
Stella is a horrible person but a great character
Less of an excuse and more of an explanation. Obviously if people are in hell they’re going to averagely be worst than others. Not that it’s impossible for a good person to be there… or goodish.
"There's no biological imperative for them to be evil"
Yeah, except that's the exact reason for why they're in hell. Because they were bad people when they were alive. And why would they stop just because they died? That's why Charlie started the Happy Hotel in the first place; to change them into good people so that they can go to heaven. This argument could maybe work for the hellborns, but considering the fact that they co-exist with evil sinners, I see no explanation for why they would be good in a place filled with bad people.
I think you might be misinterpreting “biological imperative”
What that means is like for humans and (presumably) demons, eating is a necessary body function. If you don’t eat, you die; and your body will tell you to eat if you spend too much time without food. That’s a biological imperative, you can’t just decide not to need food. He’s saying demons don’t have a physical need to be violent and cruel, their bodies don’t require it the same way it requires food.
Succubus is a grey area on that, we don’t know if succubi NEED to have sex to live or if that’s just a job they’re naturally well-suited for.
Sinners in hell do bad things because it’s a learned behavior, not because their DNA says they have to. Same with hellborn demons. It certainly means that their environment makes it likely to develop those toxic traits, but nothing forced anyone to be evil there.
@UCAsk_57wGjGPugxqqJscyCQ everyone that we’ve seen both alive and in hell had a specific sin that got them there, whether they think it was fair or not. Loopty and Lipton tested their inventions on the poor (implied to have killed or maimed many), mrs. Mayberry committed “one massacre fueled by blind rage”, and that one unnamed demon in their ad “lovingly murdered” his wife. A little strange that the only cases we know for sure generally involve murder.
As far as rules go, we at least know “being responsible for a human death” keeps you out of heaven in spindleverse. Since all the sinners we see in helluva boss have killed people, and the cherubs accidentally “causing the death of”Lyle Lipton got them banished from heaven with zero right to appeal.
i think what was pointed out was that hell is where the majority go because heavens pretty much impossible to get into without someone getting you in. therefore the majority of people who have ever done a single thing wrong in their life would be in hell and because of the lack of point in acting morally in hell they just act on their worst impulses. charlies point in making the happy hotel is to prove to people that acting on their better impulses can have positive affects like getting them into heaven
A good example of a setting influencing a story is Blue Eye Samurai, the female characters still want autonomy in an oppressive world, and some of them do get it, but instead of the modern sense of feminism of "everybody gets equal rights", it has the philosophy that if you can't change the world you live in, adapt and find a new way to reach that same goal, which is in line with more traditional feminist views
Hell is meant to be torment FOR THOSE CONDEMNED TO BE THERE!
Not any who happened to get there...
Regarding Stella, I didn't really like that she was just a one-dimensional evil character. I liked the idea that she became a vengeful spouse because Stolas cheated on her. While not okay, I understood why she'd want to try to get him assassinated.
Then it was revealed that she was always evil, even since childhood. I didn't like that. I felt like it cheapened her character and that it was a cop-out to make the cheating justified. But I tried telling myself that it's fine if she was a one-dimensional evil character with no nuance because "it's hell" so I've got mixed feelings 😅
Yeah, they somehow made her *less* complex through *more* screen time
Chorus already has a video on that, you should check it out
Not to mention it completely red-cons that line form ep 2 where Octvavia said they didn't always hate each other. Like i thought they atleast liked each other in the beginning of their marriage, but apparently Stella was just always a bitch and i think thats a cheap way to - as you also said - justify Stolas cheating
It’s also fine cause she doesn’t need a reason to not like their relationship.. and can be given even more reasons to hate their relationship which she never had interest in to begin with. Which is extremely common in arranged marriages.
I feel like it was obvious since episode 2 that the cheating wasn't even the problem for Stella. It was just that she wasn't happy that he did it with an imp, someone below them
Yeah, you’re right honestly. I especially felt that bit about how historical settings and the culture inform the morality of the characters, or at least SHOULD. The amount of times I’ve seen people try and justify weird-ass modernization of older cultures’ morals is bizarre.
If a work is set in the post-Sengoku Jidai Japan, I am going to be insanely confused if there’s a scene where a peasant insults and spits at a samurai and the Samurai doesn’t exercise Kiri-Sute Gomen immediately in response, or, God forbid, attempts to have a dialogue with them. No. That’s not how that worked.
yeah its a product of not wanting to piss off the higher ups or not wanting to be "to accurate" to the point it ruins what they want to go for. one of the things i hate the most is when the stories do stick to more accurate things for the time setting but ppl get pissed off about it, make it into something more then it really is, or misunderstand its point of its inclusion in the setting. due to them looking at it with a modern mindset ignoring the era its set in
This version of hell is way cooler than the “infinite torture”
God, I've always used the "it's hell" explanation when people complain about it being too explicit and bloody and sexual, but I can't IMAGINE using that excuse to justify a bad character's actions??? Just because they live in hell (especially this kind of hell) doesn't make their horrible deeds okay! They're still murderers, abusers, cheaters, etc etc, and yeah those are all things I can understandably see in a hell, but they're definitely NOT just excusable. People really wanna defend their fav character, when really, that character is just a bad person, accept it. :/
But that's the thing- most people don't use the excuse as well... an eXCUSE... They more so also use it as an explanation for WHY the person is still shitty and is actually a bad person- it IS hell after all. It breeds in horrible people due to it's environment and that is kinda the point, and with sinners especially, it's not an excuse, it's an explanation for WHY the person is acting shitty. "How could they be terrible!!?" "GASP, HOW COULD KATIE KILLJOY BE HOMOPHOBIC??" ...It's hell, she's bound to be a bitch, she's a SINNER AFTER ALL WHO WORKS AS A NEWS ANCHOR OF ALL THINGS, WE SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO TRUST A NEWS ANCHOR
But y’all still Simp for Stella and Striker lol make it make sense.
@@MultiSuperguy101 Someone missed the point of my year old comment lol. People can like evil characters no problem, you just shouldn’t excuse their actions as no big deal. Clearly a troll, have a good day.
I'm actually more curious what Vivzie will say gets people into HEAVEN.
Is it a lack of sin? Is it doing enough good to outweigh your sin? Is it being in purgatory long enough to pay for your sins? Is it accepting the work of a savior?
I mean so far. With the exception of the people who were born in hell. I.E. Imps, Hellhounds, Goeita, Charlie, etc.
Everyone who's in hell did something pretty significant to get them in there. Along with being fairly unrepentant about it to. I mean the lightest sinner we saw was a school techer who brutally ripped apart her husband with a chainsaw. Also tried to kill the women he was sleeping with, before the proceeding to comit suicide. All of this while the audio was playing for the children back at her classroom.
That is so far the best of the sinners who backstory's we know.
(I didn't mention Vaggie, because it seems like her backstory might be that she's a purifier in which case her story is more complicated, but possibly purely business related.)
It's believing in and following Jesus Christ, our Lird and Saviour, who paid the price for our sin. There is no other way into Heaven.
The real hell will not be cute and trendy like this evil show. It will be an endless hopeless nightmare.
@@dpainter1526 I wouldn't call it an evil show as much as very poorly written. Although part of me does take some humor in Satan being show as more or less a clown.
Anyway Godspeed me fellow. Lords Blessing upon you. Make sure you behave rightly so others may be inclined to follow the path.
Hell would be full of terrible people even if a lot of them aren’t necessarily murderous psychopaths.
Which is what hell is supposed to be like. Heaven is very difficult to get into, I'm surprised that cherubs are ever sent to help someone get in.
If its an accurate representation of the Bible's version of Hell and what people did to get sent their then yeah.
Some people have been going "It's hell, why isn't everyone pure evil" so this argument helps
Hell, some of them are from the 90s why are they all gay
This video was much more nuanced than I thought it would be. For some reason, I thought this would be about how Helluva Boss shouldn't have regular, toxic characters just because it's hell. I thought of Scottfalco saying "people saying bad things is normal because they are bad people that have gone to HELL." I didn't consider the different ways that shows actually tackle their settings and morals. Especially how in helluva boss, evil is encouraged and normalized, but it isn't *inherent* . People do bad things, not because they are completely evil, but because they believe there's no reason *not* to. Which I think is a very natural way of explaining the morality in the show.
Also, thanks for trashing Seven Deadly Sins a way that wasn't forced, but 100% true and taken seriously.
@Miles Gwatidzo no
Congratulations you screenshotted an NFT you earned the based trophy
Chorus really likes talking about this show, doesn't he?
It's his channel after all
Well, who wouldn't?
I think he likes it
never thought about this before, really great vid!
Do people really don't see the strings of how Stella was portrayed? It was lazy as hell and really disappointing unless one happens to be that kind of fan that only cares about the emotional rollercoaster. Stella is basically a cartoon of what an evil antagonist should be.
In the previous season she had classism as a key category in which to comprehend her disdain of her own husband and his actions. We saw a cold hearted aristocrat fully conscious of the nature of her arranged marriage, one she seemed to be in agreeing with only because is was functional and when that functionality was under danger she raged. The most obvious correct choice would have been that Viv expanded on what she show us before because it was good. But now she decided to go full "I will give the fans the feelings they want" and sacrificed Stella potential complexity in that fanservice altar. Now she showed us a Stella who is a caricature of herself, a bad person who does bad things because she is bad. That's basically how a child would describe a villain, but this is not supposed to be a childish story. Heck we are even showed how Stella is bad in a photo of her being a kid and strangling some service imp so we as viewers know that she has always been like that because yes and regardless of context. She could have been in whatever other context or whatever situation and she would feel all the same rage and all the same hatred. It's unspecific to a point in which the author no longer needs more character development, there's no reason and no motivation that relates to the story in that character. It's like that unconditionally. Whatever she insinuated, started, sketched in the previous season is gone. And that's a downgrade.
oh look more victim blaming.
this is insulting. Stella's a very, very realistic abuser. They are this bad. they don't need a reason.
actually their family is a very realistic family dynamic. 'lazy writing?' 'there has to be a reason?' 'there has to be redemption?' 'it has to he Stolas' (the victim's) fault for not realizing X or doing X?'
it's disgusting. If someone was trying to escape from an abusive relationship, I sure hope they don't encounter people like you, who'd plunge them right back into it thinking that there has to be a 'fixable tragic reason' a person is horrible.
tell me. How is a very realistic and accurate interpretation of an abusive family, *childish?*
also she was angry about stolas sleeping with an imp, because it gives her a bad name that her husband would choose as IMP over her. i thought that was obvious.
@@comet.x This is fiction, not reality. Im not doing a moral analysis of this, if that's what you think . Stella, Stolas, Octavia, Blitzø are characters invented by the author NOT REAL PEOPLE. Everything I discuss is about the author and how she decided to build a story and a world in in which that story happens. Talking about how a character is developed is not a matter of ethics, it's a matter of technique. Just like a painter choosing how to blend colors, an author chooses how to construct a character. I'm merely analysing her technique which I find it has been downgraded regarding the fictional character called Stella. I'm not interested in moral teachings that can be sowed from the story.
Which ks disturbing is that you think that me doing an analysis and giving my final conclusion about a work of fiction has anything to do to how I would act when an actual and real abuse happens with actual people. It tells much about you more than it tell about me really. You don't seem to have the ability to discern between a moral and ethical standings regarding real life issues and the analysis of a work of fiction.
@@rociopaoloni5080 a work of fiction, especially ones like this, are often projections of past experiences by the people who made them.
I bet you there are multiple people working under vivzie, if not viv herself, that have experienced abuse and are using helluva boss to send a message, as a coping mechanism, or whatever.
I am fully aware stella is not real. that is not to say the animators are not real, and it definitely doesn't say that she wasn't based on a very real traumatic experience.
i don't know if this is true, but it's highly likely that stella and that entire family is based on real trauma, animated by people with real trauma, and resonating to people with real trauma.
there are times when the funny fictional cartoon characters, are a bit more than funny fictional cartoon characters.
there are also times when they are not more than funny fictional cartoon characters. I'm looking at you, shonen genre, genshin, and people who lose their minds over ships
@@comet.x I understand what is being represented there is abuse and I understand real abuse experiences can and do inspire works of fiction but here I don't talk about that and sincerely I find weird that people can't make a space for a critique that isn't about ethical and moral issues.
Stella is more cartoonish that she was before, is a much more simplistic character in the new episode. Many elements that we were shown before don't appear again here, not only they are not developed they are just not there. That has nothing to do with abuse, it's has nothing to do with how lifelike the representation is, it's just how the character is constructed.
Stella could have been the most benevolent character in the whole series but if Viv decided to leave behind the complexity she insinuated before to present us a more simplistic character my point would still stand. Why? Because what I'm saying doesn't depend on good and evil real life expressions, it's about now is constructed as a character. The same way you could analyse how a statue is build, how a painting is done, how a music piece is put together, etc.
Maybe you are focusing to much in how she treats Stolas for personal reasons but I'm not focusing on that because I don't intend to talk about how lifelike is that she says "I like to torment you", etc. I don't intend to compare to real life. I don't intend to think "hm surely someone said this to someone while abusing them" and call it a day. That's just comparing with real life not analysis.
@@rociopaoloni5080 I don't see anything missing.
As far as I could tell from the first season, she was an angry classist noble wife who hated stolas because he slept with an imp.
And honestly? Moral and ethics aside, I LOVE season 2 stella. She's so unopologetically evil and sadistic! She actually feels like a sadistic monster who revels in it all, and it's glorious. We have enough tragic backstories in hazbin already, so having someone who's just straight chaotic evil, and loves herself for it, is refreshing and fun.
True cartoonishly evil villains like this are just FUN. And concidering this is hell nobility? It fits too. And the fact when they need it to not be fun and gag-like, they can actually make it traumatic and emotional?
Personally, I think this is the best choice they could have made. A love-to-hate villain AND a trauma source? It's just perfect.
It makes me intrested in learning Vaggie's backstory in why she is in hell. Because she is pretty much the nicest sinner we have really seen. Sure she is aggressive at times but is never really rude about it and it doesn't come from malice.
Wasn't her death a suicide
@@jakie4444 I didn’t know she died from suicide but what did she do to place her in hell
@Stick the landing
committing suicide is a sin in a lot of religions.
I mean, wrath Is one of the deadly sins, so maybe people with unresolved anger issues go to hell no matter what they do?
@@jakie4444 she commited?
Thumbsnail is a ✨masterpiece✨
How? It’s not bad but it’s literally just an image of Moxxie, not really anything outstanding
Only one problem with this, there are 7 rings of hell in Vivziepop's lore. And all earth born sinners are restricted to the Pride ring(Lucifer's ring). Which means all of the other 6 rings are filled with hells natural born demons/imps/hellhounds (and probably more that we haven't seen yet)
“It’s a matter of perspective, really.”
All the characters he said were good people are established to have been born in hell, they were not sinners.
(Comment made before watching) I feel that characters like Charlie kinda proves that "badness" is not born but learned even for the literally hell born demons, rather the culture of hell as a realm of sin and evil enforces negative behaviour in everyone residing there, just look at Stolas as a child he's shown to be kind and friendly attempting to bow to Blitz before Paimon stops him, even Stella likely learned bad behaviour instead of just being "born bad". So the statement that "it's hell" shouldn't be used as an excuse for horrible actions but rather as the reason that these horrible actions are allowed and even encouraged in the first place.
This video is everything wrong with how the fandom views worldbuilding in a nutshell, the place that is a filter where all evil ends up and virtues are considered frowned upon and the fandom wants everyone to be nice and even the manifestations of sin do the opposite of their sin without anyone even being taken aback by it
The simple fact is that settings _contextualize_ characters' actions, not justify them. For example, if a character raised in a slum robs people with more than them to get by, their setting adds context to the character's desperation and motivation. Doesn't make their actions any less wrong.
I always used the "It's Hell" excuse more within the meaning of 'Context' than genuine setting. I think Vivzie does a fine job portraying Hell in a modern-realistic way within the limitations of toon laws, but I think many people tends to mistake this Hell as a place inherently bad. I still remember studying a lot about how the Church came up with Hell and how it took up to Dante to ultimately create a coherent system of what is going on with Sinners. So, when Hazbin/Helluva Boss came up, I quickly spotted the main element within this version of Hell: It's antiquate.
The way the system is portrayed is meant to show a form of hell which is outdated, backwater even within its division in circles- it's clear that there was a starting point for Hell to base its 'rules' from but then it all went 'Screw All' when times went on and Hell didn't move with them. The Overlords themselves are product of this dissonance- Sinners that have found loopholes to use at their advantage to stand over others. At the same time, the way sinning is defined within this Hell's standards is quite broad, which is reasonable within the notion that the laws are so old, and it creates a bizarre social diversification which, as far as I know, extends upon the natural denizens of Hell itself. Imps are known to be the most common species in the realm, and it's possible for them to be among those that have been the most influenced by the waves of fresh-minded sinners. Likewise, that extends for Hellhounds and maybe other species too.
Bringing up Hell's aristocracy, I would say it is the finest example of that disruption between the old order ruling over newer people. Paimon is perhaps the best piece to explain this: he is among the oldest and the most relevant in hell, he has been around for numerous centuries now and yet had no reason to change to fit within a specific criteria within the new generations of Hell. He has no reason to do so, and thus becomes a pillar of the earliest rule of Hell and a perpetrator of it. Stella is a product of this, same for Stolas. Octavia is the 'anomaly' as some would say within the societal stagnation, with the freedom provided to her to explore and learn disrupting that system by allowing people to actually wander off from their original statuses. Stolas was not given that choice, yet he was given the role to be able to either accept or deny that choice for his daughter. He was a product of the system and yet he was influenced by an external factor that allowed him to open his mind. Would he have been as bubbly and curious without Blitzo around? Maybe, but I am strongly leaning on a 'no' in this regard.
So, to summarize it once again in a few words: "It's Hell" should never be used an excuse as if it is "It's magic", it's a context and one that is more complicated than people can just dispel with a quick thought.
To be brutally honest with ya. The very fact that you're bringing up other stories with thier versions of hell/sins really make no sense here because usually when people are talking about how bad the characters are in helluva boss/hazbin hotel using the excuse "it's hell", they are *SPECIFICALLY* talking about Vivzies version of hell which has shown how fucked up of a place it can be. Every other story you bring up has thier own version of hell which has thier own story and world building (depending if they wanna go with a biblical or just make whatever version they've heard of.) but again none of the other versions from other shows have nothing to do with HB/HH series within itself. Now, a couple of the characters such as Charlie & Vaggie from Hazbin Hotel do have moral and do believe that sinners can become better people with the goal of going into heaven wether or not that is true for that series we don't know yet until the show comes out but for Helluva Boss so far the only character that really had some sense of Moral was Moxxie cause he had tried handling things his way and well.. That went completely utterly south unfortunately. My entire gripe with this video that it doesn't seem to focus too well with the series that the fandom is using the excuse for but going off on other series that have nothing to do with the main that the excuse is usually used for (at least, from where I understand the excuse of "it's hell" is mainly used for HH/HB.) the two main series that a lot of people have been watching already. Is it a good excuse for how those characters act? Eh, I mean it sorta explains it in a sense but I doubt it being an excuse to just act accordingly though in S1 E7 of HB it did show how they weren't exactly fond of Moxxie & Millie being in love with each other especially when Ozzies club is specifically designed for Lust within the Lust Ring so maybe some demons just act accordingly depending on which ring they're in just cause that's who they truly are but for other demons, they feel like that isn't it and behave the way they see fit for themselves. Not an entirely an excuse really for the HH/HB series but again does kinda explain in a sense of why.
I recently started writing a helluva boss fanfiction. I saw this video while scrolling through redit. This video is absolutely right. It was very helpful for me so I could continue my characters story to the best of my ability . Video was honestly a life saver for my 5 brain cells. Teaches writers like me the importance and influence of a setting and how it interacts with other factors in a story. Thanks for uploading man, you earned an extra sub.
I kind of think it’s like, these acts ARE bad, but nobody really cares as much if they don’t get caught.
Like Blitzos got issues about getting caught, instead of issues against his dad making him steal stuff from Stolis.
The only time I ever say "it's hell" is when somebody is complaining about how much foul language and mature shit is going on in the show. Like, dude, you watched a show about hell, what did you expect?
I'm a little confused about what your actual point is.
It *is* hell. This *is* going to make some things more common place/acceptable than others.
Let's just take Stolas cheating for instance. It's Hell. Show me a couple in demon nobility and I will show you a couple that is having an affair. Stolas cheating is most likely *the norm* and couple like the MnMs are the exception(Asmodeous makes a very musical point about this, with the kicker being the heavily implied romantic relationship he has with fizz). This doesn't make cheating not bad mind you just that it isn't the main issue in that scenario. He had an affair, it's hell, big deal, the problem isn't that he has an affair, it's that he got *caught*, very publicly.
Stolas even tells us that Stella isn't mad that he cheated, not that anyone with any sense thought she was anyway, and while he is speaking to and specifically of Stella, we shouldn't assume that it cannot be applied to a broader scope as well.
So moralistic ally the behavior is bad regardless, but culturally it's hell, there are usually bigger problems than the one being excused by said fact.
I think it's more about
"It's hell, what did you expect?"
Like trying to criticize a bad deed from a villain, what did you expect? it's the bad guy, it would be different if the hero did it
Yes them being demons does mean they're evil.
Almost 30 seconds and you already roasted tf out of a Fandom that was already dead in the ground
I think that's a new record
How to tell somebody isn’t in the fandom in two sentences or less
@@serendipitysirens feel I should clarify I'm taking about the seven deadly sins Fandom
If you knew that
Oops
Believe it or not the creator of 7 deadly sins hates tasteless fan service but was forced by the editors to put it in to sell
I agree with the idea of not using excuses for problematic elements (thankfully that seems to be getting phased out of anime as a whole) but I think literally saying "just because you're in HELL doesn't mean DEMONS should be BAD PEOPLE" is the wrong way of saying it. You can have characters do bad things without supporting the bad things they do, that's literally what a villain is, liking a villain does not mean justifying their actions. And not making literal Hell a place to explore the darker side of humanity would be a bigger waste when it comes to storytelling. Having your environment inform how your characters act is very good writing, having normal people with no moral flaws in Hell "cause the story needs to happen" would be 100x worse.
Basically, I think I agree with what you're saying, and obviously problematic characters being romanticised isn't something to be excused, but you did open your video by blatantly discouraging good writing techniques, that's all.
And this is EXACTLY why other demons are afraid of Alastor. He's a loose cannon that actively shits on the system while falling right into it perfectly because he's been conditioned to. That's also why I believe that Charlie's idea could work, even is VEEEEEEERY slowly. I mean...unless her father gets involved, though I have a sneaking suspicion that he doesn't give a damn.
We don't know what hell looked like in the past, but it's entirely possible that sinners were tortured there back then. But as the number of sinners increased and they can be very powerful, the demons eventually lost control.
Lazy as humans are, they wanted the luxury of their civilization in hell as well. It was a win-win situation for everyone. The weak got more luxuries and the strong got everything they wanted. That's why the overlords keep order, because they benefit the most from civilization.
Since the demons have the same level of technology as Earth, they appear to have built their civilization using humans as a model. Therefore, all of Hell is practically a reflection of civilization on Earth. But that also means that hell is not evil, but only what you make of it.
"It's HELL" works because nobody wants to change anything, because that would require work. Hell is filled with bad people who change the lives of others for the worse and everyone follows suit.
This is a very interesting video on setting and cultural mores .
But honestly when I use "is hell and no cares" as a joke towards the pilot episode of hell of a boss.
I still hold the characters fully accountable for their actions
Putting it nicely... "It's Hell" was never gonna be a justification, but is an eye opener. A "What were you expecting?" if you will. You're meant to expect the worst from the characters. In the case of sinners: They're in Hell for a reason.
Charlie is meant to be an exception to the rule. Of course Charlie is trying to find more exceptions among the sinners and seeing if they can be saved. Creating a possible redemption.
A redemption never implies that want someone did has been suddenly justified, but implies they put in the effort to become a better person who has learned from the sin.
The point of the series is that bad people can change, but there has to be undeniably bad people in the cast for that to work.
As for Hellborns: They seem more like humans on Earth, but born in a shithole. They can be good or get just as bad as a sinner.
Everyone in the comments keeps talking about how it’s in reference to there being bad people but the reason I usually see it being used is to support bad writing choices
I definitely think this version of Hell caters more to those ‘other’ people, those with grey morality. It’s not a game of ‘good’ or ‘evil’, it’s a complex cesspool of selfishness/selflessness, versability/stubbornness, optimism/pessimism, a reverse conflict of resistance and compliance. Duality is also a theme present in many of the characters; especially Charlie, Alastor, Angel, Blitzo and Stolas. Each of them have different levels of conviction when it comes to their personal beliefs regarding themselves and the world around them, regardless of how ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ they are. This will either result in obvious success or failure, but may well end up having the consequence of creating something like an anti-hero or accidental opposition to their own ‘set’ ways of thinking. See, I’m struggling to find the right words to describe this, since Hell’s concepts of morality and what *we* know as humanity are just so skewed. But it makes everything all the more fascinating. I honestly cannot wait to see where the story goes.
I kinda disagree here, but not with what you're saying, I just think you might be misunderstanding why people say "It's hell".
I actually think the problem isn't that the demons are not inherently evil, but what they're saying is that they should be exclusively a product of their environment. The environment is clearly a nightmare hellscape with no law enforcement, just power dynamics and oppression. Anyone can have anything happen to them at any moment and nothing seems to stop this but fear and power. Meaning anyone who grows up exclusively here should not at all have human morality or moral standards outside of that thinking, and anyone new to it should have severe culture shock but either adapt quickly ( turn off their morality to endure ) or die. Toxic masculine expectations would rule over everything, and a sort of ancient code of honor mentality would probably take over amongst the lawlessness, a well-known sociological behavior in humans ( explaining why someone would get angry after being robbed from-- it's a matter of asserting dominance, not that its something they wouldn't do themselves. I doubt she cares about theft on a moral level. ) leading to endless blood feuding and etc-- by no means should Hell or anyone within it be functioning on a modern, civilized moral code without serious empathy and grief fatigue. It would be impossible on someone's mental health to endure that. So when people say "it's hell" what they're saying is the only appropriate response to disrespect, like from an abusive wife ( one that clearly just wants to control you for dominance reasons ), is to either walk away, abuse them in return until they submit, or kill them, but you don't appeal to a better nature and you definitely do not express emotional weakness, because you should know better than to do that in this environment by now. They should not be responding to it like they're surprised or especially hurt by someone attempting to mistreat them, because they should have been hardened by this environment to the point that they know how to respond to disrespect, and to avoid being hurt or killed from being overly sentimental or having arbitrary moral values. It is deeply human to become very cold and animalistic in this kind of situation, it is not the same as asking that the characters be simple-minded monsters. Its simply how most would expect a person like that to behave in this situation. For example, Stella may appear to be one-note, ( and that is less interesting to me, on a narrative level ) but... it is not unbelievable that simply the act of being raised in Hell was enough to make her cruel and cold. We can infer how she got that way without being told. Maybe even her violent tendencies as a child could have been taught out of her in a healthier environment, but of course it wouldn't here in Hell.
Some people can suspend their disbelief and just see the series as a modern drama with exaggerated fantasy characters and accept them acting like everyday people sometimes, but I think it is also reasonable for people to see the environment they're said to be in and expect the characters to behave as such at all times.
I'm not even one of the people to make that argument in the past, I haven't seen the people who have either, but if I had to guess I imagine that's what they're trying to say.
Please add more paragraph spaces, this was a bit difficult to read…
Bro you got a point,when I read the video title I thought it was a boring ass video but you had points and examples that were interesting and thought provoking . I can tell you put a lot of effort into this video,still one of my favorite TH-camrs
In the broadest theological sense, Hell is as much a state of being as a specific place. Hell is where ever you are when you are isolated from the light and grace of God. The idea of Hell as a single place was popularized by Dante in the divine comedy but other works favor the idea that you carry Hell with you wherever you go, such as the tragical tale of Dr Faustus, in which the demon Beelzebub when asked by the titular character where is Hell he responds "Hell is here".
I find it an interesting aspect of this Hell that the Sinners aren't tortured/punished by demons, but are let lose in a free for all city where everyone is just as if not worse than they are. For example a Rapist may find that their usual prey are really Serial Killers that'll slaughter once they're in their trap. They don't need to have demons punish them, they do it to eachother anyway.
anyways Its a valid excuse
From what I've seen, the Biblical version of Hell isn't just for bad people- it's for people who don't follow God. In the end, according to the Bible, as long as you repent for your sins (no matter how bad they are, even murder) and believe / follow God, you go to Heaven.
Those who don't get sent to Hell- which has 2 main interpretations. The classic Hell, aka the one where people get tortured constantly, or the more realistic one- a empty void, where you're still concious but are devoid of God and live there forever, possibly just left to ponder what you've done or something.
Thank you so much.
Honestly the way Vivzie portrays hell as a second chance at life is really smart, and sets up the path for redemption. We already know demons can “die” so I’m guessing when they die their second chance is over and they suffer eternally.
"it happens in England during King Arthur's time."
that is actually not a time period.
It’s rare to find a video who’s maker outs they completely missed the argument in the title.
Well done on the new video by the way, you never fail to impress