History of WWI Primer 02A*: French Berthier 1892 Documentary
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2020
- Othais and Mae delve into the story of this WWI classic. Complete with history, function, and live fire demonstration.
C&Rsenal presents its WWI Primer series; covering the firearms of this historic conflict one at a time in honor of the centennial anniversary. Join us every other Tuesday!
Additional reading:
candrsenal.com/recommend-read...
Chassepot to Famas: French Military Rifles, 1866-2016
Ian Mccollum
www.headstamppublishing.com/f...
LES FUSILS FRANCAIS A VERROU - DU CHASSEPOT AU F.R. F2
Jean Huon
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Special thanks to:
Ludovic Bertrand
Ammunition data thanks to DrakeGmbH
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We are also spoiled by how well Garand clips are made.
We really are. Finding good Berthier clips could be a full-time job.
And Army was still complaining and wanting magazine-fed rifle. That just tell you how terrible Lebel feed system was when this was considered an improvement.
When lamenting the limited three shot capacity, consider that this bang stick came in when the US still used the Springfield trapdoor 73…
Read about the 3 round remington ones made on contract, thats a fun read
@kiwigrunt To be fair, the US Army and Navy were trying out a number of Lee's rifle designs that were potentially superior to the Berthier. Yes the 1885 Lee was firing either .45-70 or .43 Spanish, so black powder rounds. But it was using a box magazine. If 1895 metallurgy was better, the Lee Navy in 6mm may have had a more impressive lifespan.
The Trapdoor stayed around as long as it did for a couple of reasons: it was a known element, it was cheap, low ammo consumption, and it was "good enough".
Also, had they fully adopted the 1885 Lee, it would have basically been a Portugal Kropatschek issue all over again. Because 45-70 is not 8mm Black Powder small bore, that's for sure.
There was a big fight in the U.S. military between the old geezers who wanted to keep the old technologies and those that wanted a newer, better rifle and ammunition. Shucks, just the idea of repeating firearms made some of those old Fudds in the upper echelons of our military stress out over worries about troops “wasting” ammunition by firing too fast and running out of ammunition on the field of battle. Not until the Spanish gave our troops lessons in the efficacy of firepower did our military get it. Then, not until WW1 did the U.S. realize that they needed to buy more than just a few machine guns,plus airplanes, tanks, etc. The United States had a lot of catching up to do.
Actually "it came in at a time when the US" was evaluating over 50 different smokeless powder repeaters to replace the Trapdoor Springfield. For that matter the US Army had been conducting field tests of bolt-action repeaters since the late 1870's. All of them were found lacking in durability when compared to the Springfield.
C&Rsenal is one of the few places where a re-release is a good thing
Agreed.
This is no mere re-release, this is a reimagining
Not being Bad Robot reboot is a good thing.
Damn if that is not the best way to describe these new re-releases.
2/5 not enough dewbacks.
Ian Mccollum sees the thumbnail.
*_Heavy Breathing_*
Maybe screaming at the footage if it is incorrect........... not that it is........ to date.
@@johnd2058 hail the Lord,for he has given us the right to bear arms,and now we can trash the evil forces,may grace be upon him,Amen.
@@maximilianolimamoreira5002 That one comes from "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a Free State". Still is. If we could grab any given Founding Father and show them around here, they'd be appalled at how we're dumb enough to BOTH let terrorists buy people-hunting-guns AND close the militia-AKA-National-Guard armories that used to be in just about every town and city worth marking on the map.
Epic username bro
I wonder if in 50 years, as new information arises we'll have a Primer 00X******* on some weapon. The Ross rifle of historical documentaries.
Try the Lee Metford...
Primer XXXX MKII**
@@thesunsetdriver Fortieth = XV , and XXX would have been funnier. ;^P
Just glad I could help a little bit.
Thanks!
As you can tell from the patent pending Gruntometer(tm) The Lebel is in fact heavier than most machine guns.
To be honest, I'm mostly here for the grunting.
,,,I don't want, to be
I always wonder how many of especially the French guns are actually loaned from Ian's personal collection.
All French guns out there are Ian's
All MY antique french guns are loans from Ian's collection.
41:30. This show has a long history of ejected rounds flying out at othias.
(Re: loose rounds, 7:30-8:30) If you watch Mae(?) firing the Label (see previous video), you can see the rounds moving on the 'loading tray' before being chambered.
I was a teenager in 1962, and I'd go to the Fish Canyon Gun Range in Monrovia, California, the only big bore range in the Los Angeles basin. Guns & Ammo Magazine would come out there from time to time. They'd go to a surplus shop, and the surplus guys would say, Hey, take a bunch of our guns and shoot as much as you want. Here's a bunch of free ammo. Enjoy! All they wanted was mention in Guns and Ammo magazine. Their group was four shooting positions away from where I was shooting one day. They had a table full of dented, beat up war surplus guns. They actually got paid for this! (Ah, heaven!) While they they were shooting there was a particularly LOUD EXPLOSION!!!! The range safety officer called cease fire, all guns on the table, etc., and people came running over to the Guns & Ammo spot. One guy brought a first aid kit. A Guns & Ammo guy was standing there with a stunned, goofy look on his face. He was holding a French Berthier carbine! There was nothing wrong with the weapon. It had an extremely short barrel. It did this EVERY time it was fired. They only fired it a couple more times. Without ear protection, you're going to get blood coming out of your ears! Terrible!
This pleases the Church of Gun Jesus.
Amen.
Gun jesus and this is my favorite channel for nerdy gun details. Thanks for updating my favorite series.
Two men say they're Jesus, one of the must be wrong Gun Jesus smokiing, damn it's not a bong.
The whole issue with the elevator started during loading reminds me of the need to fire a "ghost round" on the MK-19.
Rock me mama, like an 8 lebel.... rock me mama it's loud as hell.....
Hey mama rock me
Rock me mama like a rifle that's French
Rock me mama like I got no trench
Hey mama rock me
41:28 ... "She has a button down there..."
Too cool.
Brian Rothhammer. Ha!
"It DOES exist, I saw it in a TH-cam video!" 😉
"I want to fit my yellow little guy down there"
TMI, but okay.
Kato?
That sounds a bit unhealthy. Hope Othais is getting that checked out.
i used a berthier 3 shot carbine while deer hunting this past year.I could never get a clip to feed properly so i single loaded it. I loved every second of the hunt, and i agree it is the loudest gun i have ever shot.
Oh my, I was wondering when they would revisit the Berthier.
A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
We will watch this video with great interest
I shall revell in the redux.........
I can imagine Gun Jesus in his smoking jacket (with a pipe, and a glass of Scotch) sitting down in front of the computer to watch this video, and bless it.
Praise be to Gun Jesus!
His smoking jacket is the pinnacle of fashion. Sadly, it's unavailable for us commoners. I asked him in a comment about where did he get it, and he said that his mom made it for him (which I found very wholesome, btw)
Jan Wacławik that is probably the most adorable thing I’ve heard this week
@@janwacawik7432 Woven by the mother of Gun Jesus, betcha it can clear malfunctions just by touching a gun's barrel.
@@janwacawik7432 that's some damn good mom skills, that thing is slick.
I've been a Patreon Patron about as long as you've been on Patreon, THIS episode is exactly why,, you learned something more and you redo the older episode to share with us. Great Job!!!
I see not being able to sleep led me to this video early woo
Welcome, old boy
It's been available about a day early on Patreon of late. And at a reasonable hour!
TH-cam at 3AM, perhaps?
As always a riveting watch that passes in an instant. Thank you both for all the time and effort that obviously goes into these videos. Thank you.
41:26 loved the catch, mae's always playfully upbeat and I appreciate that
Thank you Ludovic and Ian. Quick question for the stars. Are reports of enbloc clips getting damaged and being unusable that common in the records? I would think that a clip with ammo would not be easily deformed because the bullets are supporting it and helping it maintain it's shape. Just curious.
The Berthier clip development is interesting of itself. Mannlicher clips were robust but expensive. Gew88 clips were flimsy. Berthier wisely chose a spring steel design that was tough, cheap, and simple to make (basically the same concept John C. Garand chose a few decades later).
Thanks @@MilsurpMikeChannel!
Thanks you Ludovic and Ian!
my favorite history channel with another wonderful video. i hope you guys never stop doing firearm history.
Okay, thanks to this video I can now appreciate just how much of a detriment the Lebel’s magazine was to its function. Particularly with cycling ammo intuitively.
Beautiful remake of an old episode!
Looking forward to another one!
Thank you. I have been waiting for this episode.
Yay! I finally made it through all the episodes! What a binge!
Welcome to the long wait
Brilliantly done, as always. Thanks guys!
Another wonderful episode
thank you people who help on this and Next primer
So did Mae have to wear ear muffs specifically for this gun because of the cartridge coming out of this barrel length or were the muffs a gift?
She is sooooooo country in this video.
@@davidbrennan660 That one shirt side untucked really sells it.
Love to watch these.. very well thought out and presented beautifully
Awesome episode guys. I've been waiting for the update on this one. I never knew that about the rear sight. I doubt the sling loop sounds so rattly when there is a sling installed.
good episode guys, lookin forward to the next one
Just watching this for the first time from the playlist and you can immediately see how much smaller and handier it is than the lebel.
Another great production
That fireball and the clip "ping" though
as always outstanding video, you guys rock
Do you happen to have any 32 french lounge?
They did run a Pedersen device...
32 French lounge sounds like fine jazz.
@@tamlandipper29 Yes, normally very smooth but when the dynamics heat up, it gets bombastic.
I'll see my self out.
16:35
How noble... how majestic... how- the Cuirassier on the right is picking his nose.
"Aimons l'oignon frit à l'huile,
Aimons l'oignon car il est bon,
Aimons l'oignon frit à l'huile,
Aimons l'oignon, aimons l'oignon"
Au pas, camarade!
Chanson d'oignon... Vous-êtes un Grognard?
Le boudin c'est meilleur
Because of the French ration tradition all the way from the Napoleonic era!
I had to look this up. I did not know about the onion thing in French rations! Thanks for sharing.
It's fun hanging with you folks.
To add to the language confusion, in modern French a 'carabine' is rifled and a 'fusil' is smooth bored. Either can be of any length.
Are you sure ? I'm French and I don't recall this being a thing, I'm not a gunsmith however.
(hope this do not sounds rude, that's really not the intention)
@@Pratt_ really a carbine can be any length, unless you are talking about a legal definition made after the fact.
Do be honest I don't even understand what a musket is in American parlance. There's still a school of musketry and in the Lewis Gun episode the predecessor to that was the Mcclain Repeating Musket Machinegun. None of that deals with anything resembling a musket by standard definitions.
Yes I have noticed that they seem to call all rifles carabine on modern websites.
www.naturabuy.fr/search_result.php?title=carabine&univers=no
"Fusil" smoothbore ?
Source ?
Just bought one of these but have not received it yet. Surprised and pleased to find this one in my email this morning.
Massive thanks to everyone involved in this excellent channel for keeping me sane through lockdown. I had to laugh when I saw the first new episode, which I had been eagerly anticipating for a week, was a remake. :P
On the recurring theme of semi-pistol grips, was it military doctrine to use the sling to help anchor the rifle, making them less needed?
41:27 that was smooth as hell from both of you
I love the * for the updated episode number. If you ever go back and redo the SMLE Episode though you'll need to call it Episode Mk3***
I really enjoy the exchange between you two.
I feel like you are in my garage with me.
Thanks.
D
G'day from the antipodes.
I'm digging that GT stripe in yer hair Mae. (Channelling Lily Munster?) Doesn't distract from the quality content though. As always excellent work, & kudos to the entire production crew.
Nice catch othais
Who needs sleep when others and the gang drop a new episode
Quietly hoping for a C96 revist. Loved this one though, the Berthier is great.
I would like one too, but looking at some of the data myself, Othais was surprisingly concise in that short episode when addressing the C96 as a military weapon in WW1. There is not much to say about the actual development as the gun was mostly done in private by the Fiderels, so no great records there. It sold mostly to civilians before the war, so not much to say there. The big story is really China's love affair with it, and that is not really a WW1 story. So, what we really will want is not a Primer Revisit, but whatever Othais will call his complete histories of guns from start to finish. Fingers crossed, the C96 will be one of the first of that!
Friends of C&Rsenal are friends of mine, thank you guys!
13:31 the form is completely different but the function of the internal reminds of the Lee Enfield, especially with the V spring pushing on the sear and mag catch, along side the mag release being inside the trigger guard
A mark of good content is always re-watchability. This is probably my third time through this one...
This is my type of re-run. As always, great material and presentation. Of the carbines available to the Triple Entente, I would take the Berthier hands down over the others for fighting within a trench, despite its 3 rounds. Maneuvering with just about any other standard issue full power firearm in a trench would be a disaster waiting to happen IMHO. As for recoil, I've never heard anyone complain of recoil in combat.....now on the range that is of course another matter.
A sore shoulder is of little concern when the guy next to you just got wasted and there are incoming enemies approaching you at alarming speed. Far more noticeable at the range when your endorphin levels are closer to normal ranges.
Mae's grey streaks: I dig it!
I Iiked the discussion about the pros and cons of stripper clips, en blocs and magazines. Very enlightening!
Awesome catch at 41:20!
Good enough new info that I forgot it was a redo.
24:44 OG Garand "ping"
Thank you to all that contribute to this channel.If you have merchandise I will buy and advertise. Vive la France, vive la guerre, vive la sacr`e mercenaire
Bravo....
Ha! That pun rocks! Third time is the charm! Now I know where Dry Fire came from! ;-)
12:40 Going from one round to three is a 200% increase, not 300%. Now you have to do a 02A** version :-p
I hope you plan to do a mas 36 episode one day!
The real question should be “would you take this into battle, if you’re French?”
They took cuirasses and swords into battle, they'll take a carbine too.
@@Edax_Royeaux My real point is, for a French soldier this is the best option.
@@DerekMitchell Lebel vs this? Lebel looks cool as fucc, but this is far more practical. Even with a 3 round clip. I know the French prefered the Lebel, but this gives you a higher overall rate of fire, and it's shorter.
I tried buying one at a local gunstore here in Las Vegas, the old gunstore owner had a lot of rarities on the wall that unfortunately weren’t for sale
Same doctrine for box mags today for the USA, there are no disposable mags
I’m one of those future people now! Feels good.
One very rare situation where I say "episode re-upload? Right on!"....
This Berthier reminds me of Paciencia from Fallout New Vegas. Three shots of .308 out of a Post-Nuclear Desert Rat Mauser Clone or three shots of 8mm Lebel out of a WWI French Cavalry Rifle that is super comf until you fire it... Which would y’all prefer? Yeah one is from a video game but this is the internet so have at it kind lads and gentlewomen!
Interesting parallel that the secondary rifle became the main one just like the secondary Heavy MG from Hotchkiss overtook the Saint Étienne 1907 MG
Even with the mas 36
41:21 🙂 just like they drew it up
Great episode! What’s with the American Krag in a C stock behind you?
A far better remake than FF7.
Great channel, will you ever cover the german selbstlader rifles? The Great War brought me here
Chassepot to FAMAS mark at 18:00
30:47 Ahh Ballz Deep in the a.m. nothing really beats that.
Question for anyone in the comments and C&Rsenal. If you were a nation in WW1 one with unlimited industrial capacity meaning you can choose anything, and one with the Industrial capacity of Italy or Austria what pistols, rifles, semi-auto rilfe/SLR, LMGs, and HMGs what would you choose?
Brutal recoil on that puppy
Would you take this into battle is easy this time, yes but for the three shot clip. Bang, bang, bang and then having to reload means needing more men to keep up a constant barrage of small arms fire of course combining these Berthiers with Chauchats means having good support for your automatic riflemen as you assault machine gun emplacements.
The French WWI mid war small arms trinity, rifle grenade Lebels, Chauchats for covering fire, and Berthiers for pinpoint shots.
I think it is interesting that at the same time JMB was bringing the similar Winchester 1894 with a tube magazine in a rimmed 30 caliber with smokeless powder. I'm surprised Browning/Winchester did not seek out a military contract. A 5 round lever action 8mm Lebel outfitted with a king patent might have been appealing to artillery, cavalry or genderarmrie.
French garand doesn't exist, it can't hurt you!
French garand: 41:28
Somewhere in the distance, Gun Jesus can be heard giggling like a little girl. 🤪
I'm curious. When it comes to the en bloc system, are there any from the Great War period that eject the clip from the top similar to the M1 Garand?
There was a modification to a Mannlicher system, that was originally supposed to drop the clip from the bottom of the action. The modification added a floor plate and a spring and would eject the empty clip through the top of the action when opened on empty, inside of the original way (through the bottom when the last round was chambered).
They will add the Berthier in Hunt: Showdown soon :D
It’s insane that it took til the end of the war to issue a 5 shot en bloc clip and rifle.
*pls. Next Cei Rigotti!*
So Im looking at images of the Armenian resistance on Musa Dagh and I notice like all of the picture of these specific guys have Berthiers? Do we know why that is? The images seem to be from 1915
Not my first choice in time of war, but if the only alternative is a Lebel then, yes, please, I'll have a Berthier.
Please do a video about the Bethier rifle models : )
Ok. Did y'all practice that clip routine? Smooth! 41:25
As I was watching Othias describe the system for the Balle D and Balle M ammo sight alteration I actually said "Jesus H. Christ" outloud, ingenious stuff.
I like to think I've seen one or two things in my life so far, but what in heck was the... monotrack? that popped up when war were declared? I'd like to see Scrapheap Challenge make one :o
47:47 Tactical flip flops!
I noticed Mae shoots with her shirt half tucked in. Am I right in thinking it's so her right arm isn't impeded by a restrictive shirt?
Great video guys, really looking forward to that shotgun series 🙄
It's so my shirt doesn't skirt the mic on my belt loop.
The more you know🎶🌈
Plus one there