History of WWI Primer 030: Italian Carcano Model 1891 Documentary
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ค. 2016
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Othais and Mae delve into the story of this WWI classic. Complete with history, function, and live fire demonstration.
C&Rsenal presents its WWI Primer series; covering the firearms of this historic conflict one at a time in honor of the centennial anniversary. Join us every other Tuesday!
Cartridge: 6.5x52mm
Capacity: 6 rnds
Length: 50.59"
weight: 7.72 lbs
Additional reading:
You can now find these and other books through our A-store. When buying through this link we receive a small commission that goes on to help with production.
astore.amazon.com/candrprimer-20
The Model 1891 Carcano Rifle
A Detailed Developmental & Production History
Giovanni Chegia & Alberto Simonelli with Ralph Riccio
www.schifferbooks.com/the-mode...
Italy's Battle Rifle
Russ Arendell and Steve Woodrum
Il Novantuno Mannlicher-Carcano Das italienische Waffensystem Modell 1891
Wolfgang Riepe
This episode's historical song:
La Leggenda del Piave
Giovanni Martinelli
Music provided by Melissa Hyman of The Moon and You
www.themoonandyou.com/
Safe range space thanks to Shoot Logic
www.shootlogic.com/
In collaboration with The Great War
/ thegreatwar
Ammunition data thanks to DrakeGmbH
/ drakegmbh
Visit us at candrsenal.com
FYI My father, who was in the Italian Army during WWI told me that when using the bolt on the carcano you slapped it up, pulled it back with an open hand and pushed it back with the open hand and slapped it down, again with the open hand. Since he fought through the entire war and watching him shoot a carcano that I purchased for him in the 1980s his method worked quite well.
That's exactly the method explained in the manual. "Operate the bolt energically with the palm of your hand".
Neutron Alchemist it seems they chose something that spoke their language
my Great great grandfather would say the same thing haha. He said just like our hands when we talk, all energetic
Yes, it is. But the roughly made action dont allow quick loading. Try the same way with the M1893 dutch mannlicher rifle and you'll be able to fire five shots in a single burst.
He was still shooting in the 1980s? He must have been a trooper. Well, Erwin Rommel had high respect for Italian soldiers (that was in WW2, but still), so I’m not surprised
I have a Model 1941 and I quite like it, I figure the Carcano series of weapons to be rather underrated. Great video, thanks!
Sweet
That weight is astonishing for such a long gun. Italy had one of the lightest rifles and the lightest ammo for it in the whole war. That’s a plus.
The carcano model 91 and 91/41 was the rifle my grand father and my father fought in WWI and WWII. I want to thank for the historical accuracy the rifle was described in this presentation. Too many times I have heard superficial and wrong comments on it. Congratulations.
The 91/41 was such an underrated rifle. Especially the carbine variants.
Much respect to your grandfather and father. O la vittoria O tutti accoppitati! Giù con gli Austriacci!
I love how optimistic WWI sights are. How many people in on earth could really hit what they're shooting at reliably with iron sights at 2000 meters?
I know I can't right now.
Volley fire friend.
You and your friends basically bombard the enemy with 30 or so caliber pieces of lead. Not very effective, and more of a holdover, but still a thing.
Most rifles weren't even actually tested all the way to 2000 yards or meters. Most saw at most 1000. And actually with some luck, and admittedly a 1ft target at least, and a perfect day, and maybe some physical advantages. Most old guns will reach out mostly to that range and usually pelt your target.
They were used for volley fire by groups of soldiers all firing to create a zone of impact, not individual targets.
Actually my 1917 Mosin is sub 1MOA and I can hit a pie plate at 2000 arshins would hit further but the sight doesn’t go any higher.
Jk people that say their (insert common 100+ year old infantry weapon) is sub 1 MOA I roll my eyes
They didnt. Nor did anyone expect them to very often BUT in 1874 Springfield tested the Trapdoor 1873 and were able to score 8 out of 10 hits on an 8ft by 6ft rectangle at 2400yds. Even at that distance the round had just enough energy to still penetrated 3 pine boards that were 1 inch thick(1 was enough to kill to the armys mind and data)
So I first watched this video a couple of weeks ago. Today I go to the gun show and what do I find? An 1891 Carcano dated 1895. The rifle is complete and in surprisingly good shape. So of course I brought it home and I can't wait to try it out, but first I'll need a stripper clip....
I'm gonna blame this on you Othais and Mae, the last thing I needed was another bolt action rifle.
Sorry. Send it to us and you won't have to worry any more.
That is very kind of you, I'll have to get back to you on that....
On another note, thanks for all the hard work, I really enjoy the videos!
I have a question. Both Carcano rifles and Mosin-Nagant rifles were adequate service rifles. Neither was outstanding but both were adequate. Somehow, Mosin-Nagant rifles come to be highly regarded post-war while Carcanos were relegated to the junk tier with Arisakas. Honestly, Nagants are not better than Carcanos. Why do so called experts think they were? Another great video.
I've also heard that the Arisaka was a good rifle. Maybe because Mosins are widely available and cheap people want to think they've got something good, I've never seen anything that makes me think they are much more than a weak design built with questionable manufacturing.
According to the Warren Commission the Carcano is the fastest firing, most accurate rifle ever made.
You have to consider that after ww2 a lot of americans were using war-battered Carcanos with either italian late wartime made ammos (sometimes not of the best quality) or just wrong bullets made by other companies
Mosin rifles are converted Russian fence posts.....🤣
Yes! someone who used the term "point blank range" correctly!
"They needed something else..."
Like someone to beat some common sense into Cadorna.
With a bayonet preferably. Or maybe a bag of primed hand grenades.
I must say I like how you think Evan Daire.
As a bird, i want to thank mae for adding content for my demographic. Its good to show the humans a different point of view. Weet weet
I love the X-ray views of the actions; you're certainly right about the one spring action; engineers call this "elegance"; it's said to be an elegant solution. Very nice, indeed.
I have binged this series for the past few weeks, and actually just got a carcano TS from 1916. I can now appreciate it properly having watched this video. Thank you guys!
Nice soundtrack choice for the shooting clip .... The Piave's Song.
The enemy came back,
moved by pride and hunger,
his greed he wanted satisfied,
Saw the plain from above,
he wanted still gorge and triumph
as in the past,
“No! - said the Piave - No! - said the soldiers,
"Not one more step by the enemy!"
We saw the Piave swell his waters,
and like soldiers the waves fought them off,
Stained with the blood of the haughty enemy,
The Piave ordered: “Back, retreat foreigner!”
i always listen to that when i shave and shoot
It really is clear the see the effort that you put into these. Another great episode.
Thanks!
The bad reputation comes from the mistake using the wrong bullet diameter in reloading the 6.5carcano uses 268. While reloaders were using 263s or 264 s and ending up with crappy ballistics the 4 to5 mm difference makes a world of difference!
Use the proper bullets and it's a decent rifle.
You would think that with the avalanche of Carcanos coming onto the country recently, that one of the ammo companies would offer a 6.5 X 52mm loading with a .268 bullet-or is that just wishful thinking...
4 or 5 what now? Because those certainly aren't millimeters. 0,004 inch translates to right about 0,10 mm.
Steinel Ammo makes a cartridge with the right diameter.
@@bullhorn143exactly
The impression I'm getting from this is that the Carcano is 'good enough' in every respect except fit and finish, just like the Mosin was in WW2 (but less complex and easier to manufacture). It was the right rifle in the right place at the right time and in the right circumstances (at least in WW1).
Actually, in WWI conditions, rough surfaces were a good thing. If your rifle needs smooth surfaces to function properly, mud will stuck it. It's what happened, IE, to the Ross Rifle. It was very accurate, very well machined. Good for snipers, that shoot very few rounds, and took good care of their rifles. But, for ordinary grunts in the trenches, few rounds, and the rifle needed a hammer to open the action.
If the surfaces are rough, if the couplings are loose, dirt has somewere to go instead of locking the action.
To be fair, the Ross also had a comb of locking lugs that really were the problem. I find Mausers (even the Turkish Mausers) and Springfields from WWI very smooth compared with the Carcano, and both were known for reliability.
***** The Springfield not really. altough better than the Ross, It was another weapon more suited for snipers than for ordinary infantry. It had a well known history of the action becoming very hard in trench warfare. Altough having a similar action (being the Springfield a Masuser copy) the Mauser was usually more loosely assembled, and the wartime mausers were really not better finished than the Carcano (the German Mausers' quality varies more wildly than that of the Carcano. The Carcanos have, more or less, all the same level of finishing. The peacetime builded Mausers are better finished than that, the wartime builded, even worse).
Fun fact: America is the very only nation to hate Mosin rifle
Fun fact 2: It's just because of the politics
@@neuzdost1939 That's not very nuanced. America produced Mosins for Russia during the first world war, they were not enemies. Additionally, many countries which actually used them identified flaws with the design. This channel has a video about the Mosin where they explain the mechanical issues with it. It's a fascinating watch.
who else is watching this in 2021 where 6.5 carcano ammo is rarer than an honest politician?
@C&Rsenal I've said it before and I say it again . I really appreciate all of the work and efforts from all of you. I have received quite the education . I soak of this history like a sponge and am absolutely fascinated to see the progress and efforts of men and women. Some brilliant , some dense, but all trying . Look where we are now. Thank you . Thank you very much.
I SO love going back and seeing these early videos. I came to C&Rsenal kind of late, and this content was just out there, waiting for me. Great presentation, video, and content, even early on. Love you folks!
My new favorite arms channel! Excellent job! Thank you!
Nice
David Valdez you should also check out Forgotten Weapons by Ian McCallum I believe his last name is
Thank's for the Report. The 1891 is a great old Rifle. Greeting's from Germany
"I love these Carcano sights.....good job on those sights guys."
I'm sure their corpses would be glad to hear that. Much thanks. 👌
This is SUCH a good episode. Well done!
I love yalls content! I watch them all multiple times. I love guns and I have learned so much more because of you guys. I really appreciate what you do.
Good job mate, you made an accurate historical research. Thank you so much from Italy.
I would love to see a full review and firing demonstration of a Winchester 1895 Lee Navy. For some reason the lines of the Carcano brough it back to mind.
Someone get this man a horde of minions and a beer.
Not those weird tic-tacs, they creep me out.
We'll put beards and hats on 'em.
Thanks guys. This is one of my favorite channels in all yotube. Keep the good work, and a salute from north of Spain.
Glad to hear it! Thanks for watching.
You know, I love all your videos. I've learned a ton. However, one day my kids were watching Muppet Family Christmas while I was watching this and now I can't unhear Kermit the Frog...
"La leggenda del Piave" playing while Mae is donning a really cute haircut while shooting a Carcano. Gun Poetry
When I bought my Carcano, it was my first gun that I had ever bought and when I saw it at the gun show that I was at, I just knew that I had to buy it (I just wish I had known about how much the ammo cost). When I bought it I had no idea about the gun but then I found your channel and that and Ian over at Forgotten Weapons helped me figure out what I had and for that I am eternally greatful. Thank you and keep up the good work.
I saw an M1891 Carcano at a gun show, I kinda wish I bought it, but a lot of old rifles there were in bad condition. It was less than 200 dollars, and all the Mosin Nagants there were 500 dollars and also in bad condition.
Two comments…
1) The music you selected when the pretty lady was shooting the long ’91 could not have been more appropriated. It was “La Leggenda del Piave” or the legend of the river Piave, the place that witnessed some of the bloodiest fights of WW1between Italians and the Huns. That river is considered sacred for the true Italian. Thank you for inserting such an appropriate piece of music (needles to say, I am Italian, born, raised and educated.)
2) I have a batter method to de-cock all the Carcano rifles based on the ’91 model (I have two long carbines converted into hunting rifles and 3 “Carabinieri” models with under-folding bayonet all in 6.5mm) - As a round is chambered and the bolt is returned to the down position, the only thing needed to de-cock the gun is to lift the bolt and then push it back down as you keep the trigger depressed! Try it.
For your information, with hand-loads I can get a 5-shot group of less than 3 inches at 100 meters, consistently!
By the way, good job; I am enjoying your videos. I can’t wait for episode 2 of the old Carcano. Don’t forget my beloved under-fold bayonet carbine. One of the 3 I own was manufactured by Beretta in 1942. It is in immaculate conditions and appears to have been fired very little if at all. I love these little carbines! Nothing fancy, just nice, dependable workhorses! I wish I could find more of the 6-rounds empty clips. I am down to 6. Any suggestion of where to find them?
Padi 5Star I believe it but I don't really decock the guns. Each stroke of a spring forward or back wears more than sitting compressed
Just for the record... I was referring to your comment about the convoluted procedure to de=cock the M-91 once a round is chambered. Simply lift the bolt up, this will de-cock the firing pin, now keep the trigger pulled and lower the bolt. you will have a 91 with a round chambered but the firing pin de-cocked! That's all.
Padi 5Star
We were talking about re-cocking. I never mentioned de-cocking on a live round and I wouldn't really recommend it...
.264 bullet in carcano are usually undersized. Your info on the ammo state .261 bullet that would be innacurate
Underrated rifle and channel.
I've heard that Carcanos that still have their original matching bolts are quite a bit smoother since the ejector groove on the bolt body is properly polished for the specific rifle's ejector. Problem is that apparently very, very few Carcanos still do have their original bolts today since the Italians made such an effort to be as thrifty as possible with rifle parts, mixing and matching whenever they could. Regardless, my 1917 Terni is a great shooter despite being made to lower wartime standards and I've never had any issues with it.
It may be but it is hard to know since only very few were ever serialized
i wonder what some emory paste and about a hundred cycles would do to smooth the strokes
This is the first video I have watched from your channel and I am very impressed. Great Job. I like how you tell about it’s history as well as performance.
Very nice episode guys ^^ And, as an italian, I really appreciated Othias effort on the pronunciation: italian is a hard language ^^ really looking forward for the "shoorties" episode!
OT: are your indiegogo t-shirts also shipped to EU (more specifically Berlin, if it helps)?
Thank you!! And yes, there is an international shipping option.
Anybody else wish the 7.35 cartridge caught on? The M38 in 7.35 is one of my most favored historical firearms.
I have a m38 short rifle in 7.35, very accurate, if only we chambered our m14, make it in 7.35, and make it smaller and shorter, just a though.
Thank you. Again, first class from the best channel on TH-cam . Counting down the days until i can support you on Patreon.....Big love from the UK.
We appreciate the love!
Just brought one of these and found this channel looking at reveiws....subscribed
Love these old guns
Another great video! learned a lot and thank you for the time and work put into it.
Thanks for watching!
Ordered one today such an interesting piece of hardware, xan't wait to put my hands on it thabks for the great vidéo
Thank you for your contribution to history of Carcano modello 91
8:46 Note: Do NOT search Google Images for "degloved". You have been warned.
Why would you do that?
+C&Rsenal Skin is overrated.
I never was good at following advice....
I had to, you get what you pay for is all im saying
I have no regrets!
I have to say that the overall production of this show has increased exponentially. Compared to the early episodes these still have the same quality research, but are presented in a much better style. I hope to increase my pledge in the future so that you can keep going up and up in quality!
Thanks for the help!
An excellent and a well-detailed video review as always. Being a Swiss citizen, I cannot wait for your upcoming Vetterli episode.
Oh good, because I have a LOT of translating to do before then.
+C&Rsenal Would it be from German to English or from French to English? If it is in French, I can definitely help!
Neptune Bluez
German :(
+C&Rsenal Ach so...
Bummer!
Well, glad you have german viewers :) If you could use some help, I would be certainly be better than google translator :)
lol, your site is the top bookmark on my browser. subscribed!!! it was actually your coverage of the carcano there that impressed me so much, so double jinx!
Thanks!
seriously, no... thank YOU. actual information providing channels related to fire arms are rare as hell. you BOTH do it, in spades. kudos, style and content!
I've pledge at the start of the year and i'm glad i did. I really enjoy the content.
We're glad too!
Great episode! Really enjoyed the history and development of this gun.
Thanks!
Your research is always excellent, makes for great videos.
Thanks for watching!
I have been waiting for this episode for a while. I own two carcanos myself, an 1891 model and a sporterized 91/28 model. The 1891 was made by Terni in 1918 and the 91/28 was made by Brescia in 1934. The 91/28 has a cut down stock and a side mounted scope (I only paid 65 dollars for it). I haven't shot either of them for a while, but after watching this I am definitely catching Carcano fever again.
Glad you were invested in this one.
This is impressively thorough.
Thanks!
Great work as always, guys! Mae, I love how you TOLD folks about your thumb placement. ;-) Don't you go accepting grief from nobody.
That explanation about the effect of a 'flat shooter' calibre on point blank range was excellent. Thanks!
Glad to hear!
Full of data, awesome, great work, Thanks
Thanks!
Excellent video! I have that book and it's worth every cent
Makes me want to go out and get some Chef Boyardee!!!! I love your videos and the information you provide.Excellent!
I have only ever eaten straight from the cam.
Would you believe me if I say that I nearly cried hearing you two guys talking so good about an Italian firearm?
_Thank you guys, we don't get that much praises so often on the internet_
_"Garbege fighters, garbage tank, garbage ships, garbage planes, garbage weapons, garbage garbage go make my pizza."_
_"machineguns may be good but cowards italians can't use them aha ahaaahagag"_
These are real TH-cam comments unfortunately
+Kongo Otto
Well, surely they aren't comforting
_And I am 15 just to ask your question_
Italy suffered in both world wars and even decades before from having government that was not in sync with the needs and wants of the population. Italians can fight when they WANT to fight.
C&Rsenal
Yeah, we have always been stubborn and determinated as we saw in the retaliation of the Trentino back in 1916 against the Hungarians and the Austrians.
We absolutely kicked out of the way the hungarian units and done pretty good with the austrians, but our soldiers had enough when the Germans arrived.
They said that they had enough of seeing their comrades and our people getting slaughtered so they just said to the Germans that they'll fall back but stay on guard and not attack
Makes not sense to me the reason Italian tanks were outdated was because of funding and they actually had good planes and ships
@@pieguy7157 The planes only worked well after they got german engines. But the ships were good.
Good, got a Beretta Carbine on the way and had to watch this again. Great resource!!
This rifle has a really interesting story. Great episode!
Thanks!
Can´t wait for an episode about the 1904 Vergueiro. Superb, honest videos that deserve a lot, a LOT more views.
I want to cover it but we have to find one first. Another one of those ultra-rare guns that saw near-100% conversion
+C&Rsenal I didn't know you were looking for a 1904.
I have one.
It has a wrist crack to repair, but otherwise appears serviceable.
I also have a 1904/39 in 8mm.
May is beautiful and awesome!!
Excellent! Thank You for Posting : )
I watch this all the time not the same video but all of them it is amazing how many videos you have done round of applause for you all 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 sorry if this don’t make sense I am dyslexic and autistic
Hey Guy's;
Love the channel... As a military rifle collector, I really enjoy your video's (and you have a great amount of knowledge).
Yes, the Carcano's are not the best, but I have a complete set, including a 7.35 Terni which shoots like a dream, and I agree, they are generally better than you expect...
Thanks Again, and keep up the great work... ;-) Allan
Glad you enjoyed it!
C&Rsenal has a video on the Carcano M91. My life is now complete. I love my M91, by the way :)
Nice
Awesome video
Thanks!
LOL!
That rifle looks huge in Mae's hands. Another winner presentation. Detailed, but not boringly so. Italian sights a winner? Who knew. I won't even mention what Primer I'm waiting on.........
I know, the What-Now MkIII*
excellent job!
Thank
The best episode to date! This is the best channel on Youbook, although there's Forgotten Weapons & Taofledermaus too but there're different.. Anyway ,I digest, best channel ever with these two crazy cats in it.
Never trust Tao.
thank you for the video it helped me put my caremona 1942xx back together same bolt action
I absolutely enjoy the channel. I am rewatching this video as I remembered that this was the rifle that Oswalt used to shoot JFK.
2000th like!
Great job, you got yourself a new subscriber.
Great video, keep it up
Excellent video
Going back and rewatching older episodes, I just have to say thanks for your perspective. My old way of thinking was "if it's not the best, it's probably garbage" but the idea that Italy made what worked for them and a Carcano isn't nothing really created a paradigm shift in the way I looked at a lot of firearms.
Il Piave Mormorò: "NON PASSA LO STRANIERO!"
Thanks for this review Othias! :') i hope i will have the chance to review an 1891 on my channel too!
Greetings from Italy!
While certainly not the best among bolt-actions, in fact I'd place them in the bottom tier, I'd still rather have a Carcano than a Lebel.
Rip Austro-Hungarians
Got to have a carcano blow a primer in my face today! Very fun. And yes the gas shield and port work! It was cool to see the gas split away from your first hand! The only bit of Gass that still hit me came from the cocking piece hole but otherwise it deflected around 90 percent.
Someone please tell Othais: Car-ca-no, not Ca-car-no.
One wonders if Othais was, perhaps, a bit hungry while making this video, with variations of 'Con Carne' running in a parallel mental processing loop.
More seriously, there is probably room for a rigorous in-depth specific study of rhotic aberrations: wandering, dropping, misplacement and replacement of 'R's. Unfortunately I am old, retired and without access to the necessary resources.
Here I am 3yrs later on the same mission. I feel it's safe to say he is aware by now.
Rifle: Carcano
Othais: cuh car no?
-_-
Car can o
Really interesting video
David Carcano I see your last name, sir
Also, that book just made it to very near the top of my to buy list.
Good to hear!
I know this is heresy; but I think this is a better engineered bolt action than the Mauser. The grittiness is easily fixed by some hand work; polishing the working surfaces and using appropriate lubricants makes an amazing difference.
You haven't point out another good feature of this rifle: when you put rifle on the shoulder you can notice immediately if it's in safety position cause safety lug will cover the sight line. BTW Col. Carcano must be credited just for the safety arrangement.
I have a 1907 swedish mauser where the safety covers the line of sight, very good idea
You didn't watch the video. They point out that on this version of the Carcano it doesn't cover the sight line. The safety is too small and the sights are too tall.
I have a 41 and did have some feed problems, but other than that I have to agree the rifle is good.
I swear it's hit or miss on those.
Carcano: Goes bang, shoots straight, easy to use, and it doesn't break or malfunction unless you do something stupid. Everything you need out of a military rifle of the period and nothing you don't (especially manufacturing complexity or cost). Not the nicest guns in the world, but you don't _need_ nice on a battlefield; you need reliable, durable, accurate (by standards of the time), and soldier-proof. Most importantly, you need the rifle to actually be there because it could be made in large numbers quickly and on the cheap. Carcano does all of that. No show, just go.
Where to get 6.5 - .268 Ammo?
I love my carcanos. I acquired many clips and have been able to bend them back into shape after being stepped on etc.
very educational for me; I had never really looked into the Carcano at all; before. you can't laugh at simplicity of construction, ( less man-hours, less machine tool hours), because it's probably the single most important metric for a mass production military arm. I wish I had one to polish up and detail; I bet it would be a great range gun. My history is a paper target puncher; I don't really hunt; but I bet I could make a perfectly smooth and fast bolt action with excellent accuracy of one of those in a few hours. The caliber is certainly excellent; as see the other, better finished, 6.5mm from wealthier countries that are famous for their accuracy.
In 1944 my father brought back from North Africa the exact model you have presented here. However, it is in 7.35 mm AND he cut the end of the barrel off so it would fit in the packing crate.. He gave it to me when I was 11 or 12 years old and I pretty much further trashed it trying to turn it into a 'sporter'. I'm giving some thought to restoring it as best I can because there does seem to be some parts showing up-including barrels. I also have the cavalry model (Carbine) in 7.35 though the sights, stock, etc. are quite different. I did fire the long gun many years ago so I know it's actually 7.35 and not 6.5mm.
Beautiful
Anybody know off the top of their head if there's much of collectors market in Canada for the Italian oddities, because I've come to love this, the carbines, and the bodeo. Something truly fascinating about the simplistic design of late 19th, early 20th century Italian guns.
You can't own guns in Canada
Hello there! Love the show and had a question related to this rifle. I recently bought a sporterized carcano M91/41 and was wondering what size cleaning materials to use with it (6mm iirc)?
The 1891 was one of my early acquisitions in the 70s for $26 in great shape, i found a bayo w/scabard in a surplus store for $2.50 there was a box full, i shoulda got more. I was shooting ww2 ammo back then & a shell ruptered down into the extracter groove (their almost like old balloon head shells) it put 25 pcs. Of brass micro splinters in my eye & a lot more in my cheek & forhead. Ive been using moderen brass since.
awesome vid!!!
Thanks
Great book recommendation! Well worth the price!
More than ever on the unloved gun of WWI and WWII
Multi-purpose parts in any mechanism always amaze me
Very good and informative video..👍👍
great job
Thanks!
As a suggestion, it would be cool if you guys would also produce some extra shirts with some Swiss rifles on it.
We will hopefully have years to come!