This is so true. I took Ambien for a few months and I didn't sleep well every night. Many nights I woke up every few hours on Ambien! Even took my daughter in labor to the hospital (wouldnt recommend LOL) and stayed up all night with her while she had the baby on Ambien. I decided to wean myself off slowly..lowering the doses in intervals and learning to accept when I was awake it was ok. Sometimes I would get out of bed, sometimes I would just lay in bed and be OK telling myself I didn't have to sleep. Over time I got off the medication and as I told myself sleeping is natural and it is ok if I don't sleep at all...things got better finally. One year later I sleep wo medication. Not like I use to, not perfect, but I can wake up in the morning knowing I got what I needed that night and if not, tonight is a new night. I don't worry like I use to and it has made all the difference in my mental well being. The big trick....let go!!! By the way..my dr told me I would have to take it the rest of my life...thats when I knew this was not true...I was capable of sleeping (I had before) and I took this step. Be gentle on yourself and don't compare yourself to other's.
PM, wow, this is such a wonderful message to read today 😊 So glad that you’ve taken this path of learning and courage and thanks so much for sharing a hopeful message. It’s odd how life is sometimes, like how the doctor sayin you have to take this for life in a way became a self unfulfilling prophecy. Hope you’ll find some value here even though your struggle is all but over and welcome to this community!!
@@PM-eg9qu Hi P M, I am in the process of tapering off 10mgs Ambien and wondering if you could help me with some information. How much you were taking? By how much did you reduce the dosage each cut? How long did you take to wean off completely? Did you have any withdrawal symptoms? Thanks!
Hi Jack! Nice to meet you. So, I started at 10 mg also but that was too much for me so I asked my dr for 5 mgs. I found that was too weak and 7.5 mg worked better. I was always skeptical about taking this drug and so I tried to take as little as possible that worked. Still at 7.5 I would have times I would only take the 5 mg. When I decided I was not going to take this drug anymore I would dwindle back and forth between the doses of 7.5 and 5, with more 5 mg in between doses. For instance, 3 nights on the 5, then 2 nights on the 7.5 and then 4 nights on the 5 and 1 night on the 7.5 ...where eventually only taking 5 mg. I did this maybe a week or so, then I would go a few nights on 5 and cut that in half to 2.5 for 1 night and back to the 5 until I was down completely to 2.5. I am sure this dose was only psychological as it was too low to have an affect. Once I was on this dosage Id skip a night completely and then I stopped. The entire process was probably only for 2 weeks. I had absolutely no side effects except not sleeping as before as which I had decided I was willing to experience knowing that sleep is natural and I had made peace with my decision. Also, I would say if after you quit you have a night you take one again it is OK. You can start again the next night ......be kind to yourself for the progress you have made even if it is 2 steps forward and 1 back you are still on the right path. I wish you the very best!!!
Daniel, all your videos are game changing, but this one is something extraordinary. I do thank you so so much, you're doing incredible job! I'm a big fan of yours!
Nastia! I was so so glad to read this comment right now :-) I think it’s the first comment I’ve seen from you so it’s extra special and it means so much! Hope you have a really good one and stay in touch!
I have been on benzos for sleep for 25 years. You simply cannot go cold turkey on them. The same thing with long term us of z drugs. These things have to be tapered for safety.
Oh my goodness. This video is so timely! I started taking trazadone a year ago after a major health crisis that led me into anxiety and depression. Then I switched to Seroquil. Was sleeping great! Until I wasn’t. Then I coupled the with a benzo and melatonin. Desperate for sleep. Or should I say, more for sedation to calm my mind. I had SO MUCH anxiety about taking a pill. A terrible negative feedback loop. I stopped taking the medication 2 months ago but still supplement with melatonin and an occasional Benadryl. Some nights I sleep 8-9 hours blissfully WITHOUT a supplement. Other nights I take them and still feel like crap and don’t sleep. It’s so comforting knowing it’s NOT the pill/supplement that helps me sleep-it’s ME! Remembering this at 3 am in another story. I’ve made a decision to stop all crutches. It’s the only way. Im not turning back! Thanks for this video.
Julie! So so glad this was timely and made sense. And you know, you see things so clearly, and this is the foundation for change. Thanks for sharing 😊!!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you. It’s been a couple weeks and last night was a rough night. I ended up taking my sleep meds and of course I fell asleep because my brain told me it was ok. Ugh. I woke up feeling SO GUILTY for taking it. Beating myself up terribly. Then I remembered what you said regarding deploying self kindness. Today is a new day. I can get past this. Thank you for all you’re doing!!!
Nailed it as usual! I couldn't agree more with your take / advice here regarding not just the medication itself but how we relate to it mentally in terms of best path forward. Happy to report I am taking my last Lexapro dose this week and moving on to taper the last med shortly after that. The key, for me, was in recognizing that my body itself is producing the sleep and that the medication was only helping to quiet my mind a bit, so since I've worked on my toolkit to tame down the anxiety and make friends with my anxiety, then tapering off of the med was no big deal (mentally speaking). Medications are so tricky - I know people who have taken benzodiazepines long term and stop with no issue, and then I've met people who were completely normal, taken benzodiazepines as prescribed, and their whole life implodes when they try to stop taking them too abruptly (Jordan Peterson as one recent example)....same with SSRI's as well. The topic of medication is fascinating to me and I'll be interested to see how the science evolves over time. We are all so individually unique that I feel like (and this is what I am hopeful for) screening for polymorphisms in the CYP family, methylation efficiency, etc. and using that information to take a more targeted and risk/reward optimization approach to prescribing could alleviate some of that. Anyway, bravo for tackling this topic, and in a great way to boot! It can definitely be a bit of a rabbit hole, but your teaching in this video lines up 100% with my personal experience in coming off meds :) hope you and family are doing well!
Hi Jim! This means a lot, thanks so much for the input really! You know, in comments like this, I see how our philosophy can become really good, because we are constantly learning from people like yourself who have lived it. Now I can feel confident that I'm on the right track, had I gotten something major wrong - you or someone else would have told me! I'm very glad you continue your journey towards your destination of not being on medications, well done! I was thinking about advances in technology/medicine and a more tailored approach. And you know I'm definitely a huge proponent of progress for sure! That's where I think CBTi got behind, it wasn't challenged or developed much. This said, I was thinking about the following on my drive to work: You run a scan on someone's genome and enzymes and you find that they will be a rapid metabolizer. Doctor say, great, you will not have any problems coming off this medication! Well guess what, now the doctor created an expectation. And when this person starts to wean off, they keep thinking "but wait a minute, I feel a little anxious, and it was supposed to be easy for me!!". And now they get super worked up and go back on a higher dose. And then the doc says, no worries, we have checked everything and you really will do fine. Now there's even more anticipation and this time they try to wean - they have a full on panic attack! I think anything related to thoughts and emotions will always be very tricky. Perhaps even more when we know more at that biophysical level! What I would love, is to get that targeted approach as a coach! Understand their thinking process down to the very most detailed level - and then offer this perfect, tailor made, hand-in glove teaching point that just makes the client to "ooooh yes!". Talk about brain surgery :P Anyways, its' fun speculating and dreaming! Thanks for all the support and input Jim and so nice being in touch!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you! I completely agree with your thought process there that you had on your drive to work - that's like second (or is it third? ;) ) order thinking! I think expectations, with sleep as in almost anything else in life, can be a cause for far more issues than they solve. I see it in my own life with sleep as well in other areas. It sort of hints at your natto concept too, where when you detach from expectations or outcome, you not only can sleep better, but you can also just "be" (in the moment) a lot easier as well. I truly think you are on to something big in the work that you do, Daniel. A lot of the concepts you've develop that augment CBTi and essentially "reform" CBTi probably address the reasons that are behind why some people weren't helped by CBTi. Your targeted approach I think may actually be what takes BedTyme and coaching to the next level for you. Some sort of questionnaire that can "intuit" where a client is, and then a playbook that you create that maybe overemphasizes certain parts of your teaching and underemphasizes others, etc. just throwing ideas out there. But anyway, I know I've been on a bit of a "sleep diet" lately, but when I saw the notification on my feed with the topic of sleep medications, I had to come here, see it, and it also made me want to check back in. Glad to hear and see that you're doing well! I'll be sure to stay in touch :)
@@Jim-qr6jn Love all of this 😊 and glad you’re checking in from a “sleep diet”, good expression by the way, it’s in my vocabulary now! And I just want to add - I Read the power of now and really picked up a lot of wisdom there. Hmm should do a review on it I just thought now (!) - anyways just wanted to say thanks for that tip 👍 Talk soon!!
What about medication withdrawal? There are sleep medications that are very difficult to discontinue because of a significant withdrawal effect that complicates "the plan"
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Your saying that sleep disruption is different from insomnia? That’s a great way to look at the subject. Kind of puts my mind at ease because my doctor only gave me two more refills of my sleep med before taking me off completely but I want to stop before that time. I sleep but worry about the disruption when I start to taper and stop. It’s been five months and I have been on a sleep med and I am just miserable every morning because I took a med to sleep. I want peace of mind and clarity back in my life. Just trying to not be so fearful of tapering and accepting that I may have sleep disruption while my receptors heal.
@@stephaniesteed7653 The VAST MAJORITY of doctors are severely lacking in knowledge about withdrawal symptoms, be it from sleep aids, anti-anxiety or psychiatric drugs (I'm talking from reading people's experience and from my own experience with bad withdrawals from SSRI's and benzodiazpines). It sounds exaggerated, but it's the truth. I had one doctor tell me "just stop taking this benzo right now, if you don't need it" - a recommendation that could, in some cases lead to death. Another one told me to go back on a larger doze for sleep since I'm in a bas state and sleeps awful due to that - an offer that lead to the worse withdrawal symptoms I ever experienced when tried to go back to a lower dose to quickly after... The recommended path is reducing 10 percent each month, and sometimes holding it for even longer (depending on how it goes), or even 5 percent. More information here: www.survivingantidepressants.org/ and here: willhall.net/comingoffmeds/ as well as various Facebook groups of people who ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED bad withdrawal (which, in most cases, means TOO FAST, but there are more reasons than that). I wish I had done more research before trying to wean off my SSRI, and especially before starting taking other drugs too regularly.
I've been on sleep meds for 20 years. I'm now in my 40's. I feel like my brain is always foggy, and I am very forgetful. Also, with the sleep meds, I never truly feel rested due to having terrible, vivid dreams. And I always wake up still tired. So that is why I want to get off of them.
Hi Stephanie, This makes a lot of sense, and you know it may be a bumpy path but I have no doubt I’d this is what you’d like and you’re willing to do some heart work, you’ll arrive where you want to be
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for your encouragement! I was having doubts, but your video has helped me be determined to stop taking these meds and sleep without them successfully. 🙌🏾
@stephaniesteed7653 Hello there. I like your name Lol. Well I literally can't sleep at night without taking something. I've started taking 2 melatonins and an over-the-counter sleep med called Unisom. Even though these aren't prescriptions, I get the exact same side effects I mentioned in my original comment. It's so frustrating.
Should've found this video sooner as I did a cold turkey trial. I remained awake,had 1 hour of sleep. Even more anxious the next night so I went back. Forgiving yourself for going back is important. I decieded to taper slower, and even though Daniel suggested here to not try, I'm gonna do these trial nights when I will not take it, and if I don't fall asleep for two hours I'll take it. I think you should avoid the hard struggle. I feel like I need to experience like four hours of "independent" sleep, and then I'll have the currage to remain clean..
I asked my doctor about a taper off my med and she really wasn’t too detailed about it. I also suggested maybe a anti depressant and she doesn’t really want me to be on those either because some of them affect your glucose like Mirtazapine. In my head I feel like if I just sub something else for the one I want to get off of then I could still sleep while tapering and stopping. I have really built up so much fear and anger because of my sleep med. I can’t help but to feel like an addict even though I am taking my prescribed dose only for sleep.
I'm truly sorry to hear about the challenges you've been facing. It sounds incredibly tough. We're here for you and glad that you found our content. Remember, you're not alone in this journey, and seeking support is a positive step. Just a quick heads-up: we're hosting live Q&A sessions most weeks and we'd love for you to join us! It's a great chance to ask questions, share insights, and connect with others in the community.
Hi Daniel - how do sleeping pills actually work in this case? Are they doing anything at all to calm you / help create some mental or physiological conditions for sleep? I understand the gas and break model but also find it crazy how quickly I fall asleep as soon as I take one. Is this all completely mental or is there something the pill is doing?
Hi! Oh yes this is a great observation, if we fall asleep the minute after taking a pill… clearly it can’t have been metabolized, taken up from the intenstinal system, passed the liver, out into the bloodstream, pass the blood brain barrier… so what’s happening? Medications really work by delegation. The fundamental truth with sleep is that the more we try the less we sleep. When we take a sleeping pill and think “good, I don’t have to do anything about my sleep, it’s taken care of” then we are no longer trying to sleep. We delegated the task! It’s true that they are sedating, but sedation alone doesn’t make you sleep. Sometimes people take a bunch of sleep meds in desperation and sleep no more. Because if we still try to sleep, it doesn’t happen. If you’ve been delegating sleep to a medication for some time, then it may be tricky to see that it was the delegation itself that helped, it can even be scary because it seems like there’s one less thing that can give you control. But you know, seeing that it actually always was your own body that produced sleep, that all sleep is natural, this can help so much with confidence that nothing is wrong with you!
Hey Daniel. I need to get off my zolpdiem. When look it up going cold turkey on zolpdiem, all these addiction places pop up saying it's dangerous? What are your thoughts on that? Also do you have many success stories from people that worked with you that have been on zolpdiem or a Z drug for nightly for years, that came off?
Hi Gabrielle, I can’t think of a specific story about z drug but Jim from Talking insomnia 28 talks about benzodiazepines. I’d say always talk to your prescriber when concerned about health
Interesting, wouldn't have thought irregular use can be worse than regular. What about using something for when travelling and sleeping in a different place? I do have anxiety etc. and esp. when in a different place be both negatively and positively hyperaroused, so after so many exhausting times of not sleeping and lacking energy the next day when travelling increases the anxiety of that possibility and trying to avoid some travel or even going to bed all together while travelling. Before my sleep issues got worse it wasn't an issue to travel and now it is. At home I have mostly accepted even the less good nights, but that anxiety definitely increases when somewhere else. So for occassional use for travel you'd still not recommend using something?
Why would seroquel work to at least get me to sleep, but not other meds? I think seroquel was the first I tried, before I started to question the "efforts". Last night I realized it had a great "success rate" even though it more than often raised my heart rate. Then I realized my own self has a higher success rate over years.
I've found this really helpful and it's so true since am currently going through this (deciding if I should continue or not). Really helpful in not beating up yourself cause this cause more stress. So it's a decision you need to make and stick to it. I will continue with the meds to build confidence, will taper off (over a few months) and try CBT-I thereafter when I'm in the final stages of weaning off. Thanks so much. But wanted to know what's the difference between using the Bedtyme app vs the Self coaching master program on the website? Which one provides more assistance/guidance working directly with you coach Daniel?
Hi Cindy! Thanks so much for this kind comment - I’m very glad you found it helpful and yes, not beating yourself up - so important truly. The path of least pressure, the gentle and kind way is the best. You know it’s the same philosophy in two different packages! If you like learning via video (pre-recorded classes and live drop in classes)+ messaging in a community forum, Self Coaching program is perfect. If you like learning through text and communicate 1:1 with your coach, BedTyme is the way. I’m the only coach on BedTyme so if you want my full attention 1:1 that’s best for you. I will reply to this question tonight when I’m live too. Gives me a perfect chance to talk about theses programs and doing some marketing 😊 Thanks for being here Cindy and be in touch!
Thank you for responding and yes seems this came just in time for me since honestly I was stressing too much and beating up myself since am a very health conscious person. This video changed my perspective. Sounds great, I will definitely do the Bedtyme and yes a very good marketing strategy...🙂.
Hey Daniel! It’s me, David haha do you remember me? I was on your podcast. I just wanna tell you I am starting to get rid of the sleep anxiety and welcome wakefulness and I’ve been feeling better I really appreciate you :) my only problem I still face is I can’t help but wake up around 6-7am no matter what. So I’ll sleep at 10pm, may sleep till 3am then stay up till 4am then fall asleep again till 6-7 and that’s cool. But the other night I stayed up all night talking w some friends and I didn’t get to bed till 5am and then I still woke up at 7am :/ is my body just too set into a rhythm or schedule of some sort? How do I get to sleep at 5am and sleep in till noon or 1pm if I want? Big fan as always I’d really appreciate your input and what you think solutions could be. Thank you!
Hi David! Oh yes of course that was a really fun episode! “The defense is strong” - I can tell that you’ve done some really good thought work and that you are more flexible and the defense is weakening and that is surely why you’re having less sleep anxiety and feel better - 👍 I actually think the next step for someone in your spot is very clear. As I was going through your message I counted 10 times where you talked about a time. Whenever we humans have a problem with first like to get a sense of what’s going on and get some sort of control. And when it comes to anything except sleep this is usually a great strategy! However, with sleep it is the opposite, the more we try to control it, the more slippery becomes just like a bar of soap! Knowing what time it is by checking the clock or by calculating in your mind keeps attention on sleep and keeps good sleep from happening. Letting go of control, not knowing what time it is is a very powerful act of acceptance that will surely reward you! So I think a great thing to do would be to not check any clocks at all between the time you allow yourself to sleep and the time you get up in the morning. The only time that is good to have pretty consistent and to know about is your rise time, the time you get up in the morning. You can have an alarm set and if the alarm hasn’t gone off, no need to check the time! Other than that, going completely timeless I am a total believer in. It feels kind of scary because you kind of letting go of control, but that is definitely the way. And when you no longer wonder how much you slept, when you no longer wonder how you can sleep at this time or that other time, great sleep will come your way! Thanks so much for all the support and encouragement :-)
When you take ambien for a few yrs your receptors are damaged and thus when you ween off you will find being in rebound insomia were you won't sleep until the receptors are healed. DANIEL I would be interested on your thaughts on coming off long term use of ambien and the damage that has been medically documented from the med . And how to deal with re bound insomia due to receptors damage
Hi Gary! You know, I see it this way - yes, because of down regulation of receptors, we can have more wakefulness as we come off ANYTHING that’s sedating. But that’s just wakefulness, not insomnia. Without fear, wakefulness is just that.
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 so what I am dealing with now is more like wakefulness then insomis? But until the receptors are healed I am in for nights of wakefulness ?
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Thanks for your comment!! Just a quick heads-up: we're hosting live Q&A sessions most weeks and we'd love for you to join us! It's a great chance to ask questions, share insights, and connect with others in the community.
I can’t seem to get off that last 2.5 mg of ambien on the nights before I have to rise early and go to work. If I have nothing to do that day the pressure is off and I can drift back to sleep after awakening after 5-6 hrs of sleep ( which has been happening to me for the last 30 yrs). I’m a nurse so I need to feel rested to perform safely at my job. I know it’s all in my head and that bit of ambien really isn’t doing anything chemically- just psychological dependence. I’m OK taking it other than the fear my doctor will stop prescribing it to me. I look forward to retirement in 2 yrs so I don’t HAVE to get up early and be alert to function well.
Hi. Thanks for sharing and, so much insight here.. it’s tricky this last step, I think often when we no longer pressure ourselves or judge ourselves for taking something, it paradoxically becomes easier to come off. Hope you find much here that will help
Do sleep medications cause dementia later? I've stopped using Trazodone and i'm responding to unisom very well nowadays and getting good sleep 6-7 hours. Lately, I tried to force myself to stop using unisom but it ended up failing only. You are right that the more I pressured myself to stop taking it the more I can't sleep. But I'm worried about unisom long term side-effects so I want to come off of it someday. What do you think about dementia caused by sleeping medications?
That’s probably true about tolerance. But imho it’s more the ideas that we can get that create some trouble. The idea that it makes us sleep or the idea that something is wrong because it doesn’t make us sleep. So to me it’s not so much if we take a pill or not that matters, as long as we don’t ascribe how we sleep to it, then there’s no problem!
Wow! Your videos are extremely helpful… many thanks! For some reason, I have the belief that meds help me fall back asleep after waking up because I would feel sleepy enough to not think that much. What would you say is the best way to tackle this belief? I wonder if it’s really about education or simply letting go of all that control we’re trying to have.
Been on mirtazapine for about 3 months for insomnia I've been sleeping well now for a good few weeks it. didnt work great at start. Which makes me question is it really helping me sleep now. I want to come off as I want to sleep med free. It definitely helped with day time sleep related worries and anxiety after bad night's. But was never great for putting me to sleep. Hate relying on a crutch.
@thesleepcoachschool8192 thanks Daniel. Is that nick wignall? You have 2 videos with him. Im Day 2 on the lowest dose before I come off completely. Feels like hyper sleep is back waking up alot but time going very fast so must be sleeping somewhat ok. I dont feel as nervous about going back to the bad ones.
Anytime and, glad you’re seeing the reactions easing, that’s really nice. And no, it’s Nick a member of our community. If you search Talking insomnia nick it will show up 👍
Hi! Thanks so much for the kind words :-) I mean to create an audiobook of set it and forget it but it’s not done yet, haven’t started, so so far there are no audio books…
Hi Brenda! I would say (nothing here is medical advice, just my general thoughts!) that it’s similar with all medications used for internal threats like emotions. The chemicals do something, but our thoughts are complex, and our thoughts determine how we feel… there’s no medication that can change individual thoughts or even broad beliefs… so really, I think it’s how we think in general and how we think about medications that matters!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 So my doctor said that if I dont treat it now, my anxiery could get worse. So I assume the chemicals do something, I suppose.
Hi, sorry for the late reply! What I often share is that it helps to know that medications work by "delegation". It's when we no longer try to sleep, when we delegate, this really can help. The chemicals imho aren't doing much. Knowing this can help because you see that you slept by yourself all the time!
Thank you because I have been told this sleep these pills give isn’t natural sleep etc and that has actually made me way worse and more scared. It’s funny they say that yet when I have had a sleep study they said my sleep was normal and I had taken a pill.
It has been awhile since I’ve watched your videos but your encouraging words are always on my mind when I am having a bad sleep night. I still have difficulty falling asleep but I have chosen to stop my ambien. It has been two weeks and every night gets a bit better. Your reminder that meds don’t make you sleep is a real comfort. My first night off I did not fall asleep until 3 am but I was expecting that so I was ok and self talked to stay calm about it. I am using Benadryl every night for allergy sinus problems so…that is that. Self care along with your encouraging words, I will sleep med free. I am thankful that I know your videos along with your calming voice is always here on TH-cam when I am having a sleepless night. ❤💫
Hi! Oh yes, I remember your handle but it must’ve been a couple years ago since I saw you. Thanks for being in touch and I’m so glad that the continents is helpful and what you are doing is very brave and courageous, taking this path of education, and kindness. And it really leads where we want to be 😊
@@stephaniesteed7653 yes and no...I am using benadryl everynight for sinus so I am using that and an OTC sleep aid. I have made that my mental crutch I think. I'll check back with the channel when I get off those. It is progress...slow and sure. Hope you can do it.
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This is so true. I took Ambien for a few months and I didn't sleep well every night. Many nights I woke up every few hours on Ambien! Even took my daughter in labor to the hospital (wouldnt recommend LOL) and stayed up all night with her while she had the baby on Ambien. I decided to wean myself off slowly..lowering the doses in intervals and learning to accept when I was awake it was ok. Sometimes I would get out of bed, sometimes I would just lay in bed and be OK telling myself I didn't have to sleep. Over time I got off the medication and as I told myself sleeping is natural and it is ok if I don't sleep at all...things got better finally. One year later I sleep wo medication. Not like I use to, not perfect, but I can wake up in the morning knowing I got what I needed that night and if not, tonight is a new night. I don't worry like I use to and it has made all the difference in my mental well being. The big trick....let go!!! By the way..my dr told me I would have to take it the rest of my life...thats when I knew this was not true...I was capable of sleeping (I had before) and I took this step. Be gentle on yourself and don't compare yourself to other's.
PM, wow, this is such a wonderful message to read today 😊 So glad that you’ve taken this path of learning and courage and thanks so much for sharing a hopeful message. It’s odd how life is sometimes, like how the doctor sayin you have to take this for life in a way became a self unfulfilling prophecy.
Hope you’ll find some value here even though your struggle is all but over and welcome to this community!!
Thank you! I will be here..I enjoy helping others.
@@PM-eg9qu Hi P M, I am in the process of tapering off 10mgs Ambien and wondering if you could help me with some information. How much you were taking? By how much did you reduce the dosage each cut? How long did you take to wean off completely? Did you have any withdrawal symptoms? Thanks!
Hi Jack! Nice to meet you. So, I started at 10 mg also but that was too much for me so I asked my dr for 5 mgs. I found that was too weak and 7.5 mg worked better. I was always skeptical about taking this drug and so I tried to take as little as possible that worked. Still at 7.5 I would have times I would only take the 5 mg. When I decided I was not going to take this drug anymore I would dwindle back and forth between the doses of 7.5 and 5, with more 5 mg in between doses. For instance, 3 nights on the 5, then 2 nights on the 7.5 and then 4 nights on the 5 and 1 night on the 7.5 ...where eventually only taking 5 mg. I did this maybe a week or so, then I would go a few nights on 5 and cut that in half to 2.5 for 1 night and back to the 5 until I was down completely to 2.5. I am sure this dose was only psychological as it was too low to have an affect. Once I was on this dosage Id skip a night completely and then I stopped. The entire process was probably only for 2 weeks. I had absolutely no side effects except not sleeping as before as which I had decided I was willing to experience knowing that sleep is natural and I had made peace with my decision. Also, I would say if after you quit you have a night you take one again it is OK. You can start again the next night ......be kind to yourself for the progress you have made even if it is 2 steps forward and 1 back you are still on the right path. I wish you the very best!!!
@@PM-eg9qu Thanks PM! Very kind of you to share your experience. Much appreciated.
Daniel, all your videos are game changing, but this one is something extraordinary. I do thank you so so much, you're doing incredible job! I'm a big fan of yours!
Nastia! I was so so glad to read this comment right now :-) I think it’s the first comment I’ve seen from you so it’s extra special and it means so much! Hope you have a really good one and stay in touch!
I have been on benzos for sleep for 25 years. You simply cannot go cold turkey on them. The same thing with long term us of z drugs. These things have to be tapered for safety.
Appreciate this very much, I can’t remember what I said in this video, but I’ve become much more aware of your input over the years 🙏
Oh my goodness. This video is so timely!
I started taking trazadone a year ago after a major health crisis that led me into anxiety and depression. Then I switched to Seroquil. Was sleeping great! Until I wasn’t. Then I coupled the with a benzo and melatonin. Desperate for sleep. Or should I say, more for sedation to calm my mind.
I had SO MUCH anxiety about taking a pill. A terrible negative feedback loop. I stopped taking the medication 2 months ago but still supplement with melatonin and an occasional Benadryl.
Some nights I sleep 8-9 hours blissfully WITHOUT a supplement. Other nights I take them and still feel like crap and don’t sleep.
It’s so comforting knowing it’s NOT the pill/supplement that helps me sleep-it’s ME! Remembering this at 3 am in another story.
I’ve made a decision to stop all crutches. It’s the only way. Im not turning back!
Thanks for this video.
Julie! So so glad this was timely and made sense. And you know, you see things so clearly, and this is the foundation for change. Thanks for sharing 😊!!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 thank you.
It’s been a couple weeks and last night was a rough night. I ended up taking my sleep meds and of course I fell asleep because my brain told me it was ok. Ugh.
I woke up feeling SO GUILTY for taking it. Beating myself up terribly. Then I remembered what you said regarding deploying self kindness. Today is a new day. I can get past this.
Thank you for all you’re doing!!!
@@juliecarr2267Hi are you totally off your medication? was it hard to let go? was there withdrawal symptoms?
Nailed it as usual! I couldn't agree more with your take / advice here regarding not just the medication itself but how we relate to it mentally in terms of best path forward. Happy to report I am taking my last Lexapro dose this week and moving on to taper the last med shortly after that. The key, for me, was in recognizing that my body itself is producing the sleep and that the medication was only helping to quiet my mind a bit, so since I've worked on my toolkit to tame down the anxiety and make friends with my anxiety, then tapering off of the med was no big deal (mentally speaking).
Medications are so tricky - I know people who have taken benzodiazepines long term and stop with no issue, and then I've met people who were completely normal, taken benzodiazepines as prescribed, and their whole life implodes when they try to stop taking them too abruptly (Jordan Peterson as one recent example)....same with SSRI's as well. The topic of medication is fascinating to me and I'll be interested to see how the science evolves over time. We are all so individually unique that I feel like (and this is what I am hopeful for) screening for polymorphisms in the CYP family, methylation efficiency, etc. and using that information to take a more targeted and risk/reward optimization approach to prescribing could alleviate some of that. Anyway, bravo for tackling this topic, and in a great way to boot! It can definitely be a bit of a rabbit hole, but your teaching in this video lines up 100% with my personal experience in coming off meds :) hope you and family are doing well!
Hi Jim! This means a lot, thanks so much for the input really! You know, in comments like this, I see how our philosophy can become really good, because we are constantly learning from people like yourself who have lived it. Now I can feel confident that I'm on the right track, had I gotten something major wrong - you or someone else would have told me!
I'm very glad you continue your journey towards your destination of not being on medications, well done!
I was thinking about advances in technology/medicine and a more tailored approach. And you know I'm definitely a huge proponent of progress for sure! That's where I think CBTi got behind, it wasn't challenged or developed much. This said, I was thinking about the following on my drive to work: You run a scan on someone's genome and enzymes and you find that they will be a rapid metabolizer. Doctor say, great, you will not have any problems coming off this medication! Well guess what, now the doctor created an expectation. And when this person starts to wean off, they keep thinking "but wait a minute, I feel a little anxious, and it was supposed to be easy for me!!". And now they get super worked up and go back on a higher dose. And then the doc says, no worries, we have checked everything and you really will do fine. Now there's even more anticipation and this time they try to wean - they have a full on panic attack!
I think anything related to thoughts and emotions will always be very tricky. Perhaps even more when we know more at that biophysical level!
What I would love, is to get that targeted approach as a coach! Understand their thinking process down to the very most detailed level - and then offer this perfect, tailor made, hand-in glove teaching point that just makes the client to "ooooh yes!". Talk about brain surgery :P
Anyways, its' fun speculating and dreaming! Thanks for all the support and input Jim and so nice being in touch!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you! I completely agree with your thought process there that you had on your drive to work - that's like second (or is it third? ;) ) order thinking! I think expectations, with sleep as in almost anything else in life, can be a cause for far more issues than they solve. I see it in my own life with sleep as well in other areas. It sort of hints at your natto concept too, where when you detach from expectations or outcome, you not only can sleep better, but you can also just "be" (in the moment) a lot easier as well. I truly think you are on to something big in the work that you do, Daniel. A lot of the concepts you've develop that augment CBTi and essentially "reform" CBTi probably address the reasons that are behind why some people weren't helped by CBTi.
Your targeted approach I think may actually be what takes BedTyme and coaching to the next level for you. Some sort of questionnaire that can "intuit" where a client is, and then a playbook that you create that maybe overemphasizes certain parts of your teaching and underemphasizes others, etc. just throwing ideas out there.
But anyway, I know I've been on a bit of a "sleep diet" lately, but when I saw the notification on my feed with the topic of sleep medications, I had to come here, see it, and it also made me want to check back in. Glad to hear and see that you're doing well! I'll be sure to stay in touch :)
@@Jim-qr6jn Love all of this 😊 and glad you’re checking in from a “sleep diet”, good expression by the way, it’s in my vocabulary now!
And I just want to add - I Read the power of now and really picked up a lot of wisdom there. Hmm should do a review on it I just thought now (!) - anyways just wanted to say thanks for that tip 👍 Talk soon!!
What about medication withdrawal? There are sleep medications that are very difficult to discontinue because of a significant withdrawal effect that complicates "the plan"
Hi Laura, no medical advice here but yes many things can create sleep disruption, like weaning off, but that’s different from insomnia
@@thesleepcoachschool8192
Your saying that sleep disruption is different from insomnia? That’s a great way to look at the subject. Kind of puts my mind at ease because my doctor only gave me two more refills of my sleep med before taking me off completely but I want to stop before that time. I sleep but worry about the disruption when I start to taper and stop. It’s been five months and I have been on a sleep med and I am just miserable every morning because I took a med to sleep. I want peace of mind and clarity back in my life. Just trying to not be so fearful of tapering and accepting that I may have sleep disruption while my receptors heal.
@@stephaniesteed7653 The VAST MAJORITY of doctors are severely lacking in knowledge about withdrawal symptoms, be it from sleep aids, anti-anxiety or psychiatric drugs (I'm talking from reading people's experience and from my own experience with bad withdrawals from SSRI's and benzodiazpines). It sounds exaggerated, but it's the truth. I had one doctor tell me "just stop taking this benzo right now, if you don't need it" - a recommendation that could, in some cases lead to death. Another one told me to go back on a larger doze for sleep since I'm in a bas state and sleeps awful due to that - an offer that lead to the worse withdrawal symptoms I ever experienced when tried to go back to a lower dose to quickly after...
The recommended path is reducing 10 percent each month, and sometimes holding it for even longer (depending on how it goes), or even 5 percent. More information here: www.survivingantidepressants.org/
and here:
willhall.net/comingoffmeds/
as well as various Facebook groups of people who ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED bad withdrawal (which, in most cases, means TOO FAST, but there are more reasons than that).
I wish I had done more research before trying to wean off my SSRI, and especially before starting taking other drugs too regularly.
I've been on sleep meds for 20 years. I'm now in my 40's. I feel like my brain is always foggy, and I am very forgetful. Also, with the sleep meds, I never truly feel rested due to having terrible, vivid dreams. And I always wake up still tired.
So that is why I want to get off of them.
Hi Stephanie,
This makes a lot of sense, and you know it may be a bumpy path but I have no doubt I’d this is what you’d like and you’re willing to do some heart work, you’ll arrive where you want to be
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 Thank you for your encouragement! I was having doubts, but your video has helped me be determined to stop taking these meds and sleep without them successfully. 🙌🏾
@stephanies3862 so glad to read these lines 😊
@@stephanies3862how are you doing?
@stephaniesteed7653 Hello there. I like your name Lol. Well I literally can't sleep at night without taking something. I've started taking 2 melatonins and an over-the-counter sleep med called Unisom. Even though these aren't prescriptions, I get the exact same side effects I mentioned in my original comment. It's so frustrating.
Should've found this video sooner as I did a cold turkey trial. I remained awake,had 1 hour of sleep. Even more anxious the next night so I went back.
Forgiving yourself for going back is important. I decieded to taper slower, and even though Daniel suggested here to not try, I'm gonna do these trial nights when I will not take it, and if I don't fall asleep for two hours I'll take it. I think you should avoid the hard struggle. I feel like I need to experience like four hours of "independent" sleep, and then I'll have the currage to remain clean..
I asked my doctor about a taper off my med and she really wasn’t too detailed about it. I also suggested maybe a anti depressant and she doesn’t really want me to be on those either because some of them affect your glucose like Mirtazapine. In my head I feel like if I just sub something else for the one I want to get off of then I could still sleep while tapering and stopping. I have really built up so much fear and anger because of my sleep med. I can’t help but to feel like an addict even though I am taking my prescribed dose only for sleep.
I'm truly sorry to hear about the challenges you've been facing. It sounds incredibly tough. We're here for you and glad that you found our content. Remember, you're not alone in this journey, and seeking support is a positive step. Just a quick heads-up: we're hosting live Q&A sessions most weeks and we'd love for you to join us! It's a great chance to ask questions, share insights, and connect with others in the community.
Hi Daniel - how do sleeping pills actually work in this case? Are they doing anything at all to calm you / help create some mental or physiological conditions for sleep? I understand the gas and break model but also find it crazy how quickly I fall asleep as soon as I take one. Is this all completely mental or is there something the pill is doing?
Hi!
Oh yes this is a great observation, if we fall asleep the minute after taking a pill… clearly it can’t have been metabolized, taken up from the intenstinal system, passed the liver, out into the bloodstream, pass the blood brain barrier… so what’s happening?
Medications really work by delegation.
The fundamental truth with sleep is that the more we try the less we sleep. When we take a sleeping pill and think “good, I don’t have to do anything about my sleep, it’s taken care of” then we are no longer trying to sleep. We delegated the task!
It’s true that they are sedating, but sedation alone doesn’t make you sleep. Sometimes people take a bunch of sleep meds in desperation and sleep no more. Because if we still try to sleep, it doesn’t happen.
If you’ve been delegating sleep to a medication for some time, then it may be tricky to see that it was the delegation itself that helped, it can even be scary because it seems like there’s one less thing that can give you control. But you know, seeing that it actually always was your own body that produced sleep, that all sleep is natural, this can help so much with confidence that nothing is wrong with you!
Hey Daniel. I need to get off my zolpdiem. When look it up going cold turkey on zolpdiem, all these addiction places pop up saying it's dangerous? What are your thoughts on that? Also do you have many success stories from people that worked with you that have been on zolpdiem or a Z drug for nightly for years, that came off?
Hi Gabrielle, I can’t think of a specific story about z drug but Jim from Talking insomnia 28 talks about benzodiazepines. I’d say always talk to your prescriber when concerned about health
Hi Gabrielle, were you succesfully able to wean off?
Interesting, wouldn't have thought irregular use can be worse than regular. What about using something for when travelling and sleeping in a different place? I do have anxiety etc. and esp. when in a different place be both negatively and positively hyperaroused, so after so many exhausting times of not sleeping and lacking energy the next day when travelling increases the anxiety of that possibility and trying to avoid some travel or even going to bed all together while travelling. Before my sleep issues got worse it wasn't an issue to travel and now it is. At home I have mostly accepted even the less good nights, but that anxiety definitely increases when somewhere else. So for occassional use for travel you'd still not recommend using something?
Why would seroquel work to at least get me to sleep, but not other meds? I think seroquel was the first I tried, before I started to question the "efforts". Last night I realized it had a great "success rate" even though it more than often raised my heart rate. Then I realized my own self has a higher success rate over years.
I've found this really helpful and it's so true since am currently going through this (deciding if I should continue or not). Really helpful in not beating up yourself cause this cause more stress. So it's a decision you need to make and stick to it. I will continue with the meds to build confidence, will taper off (over a few months) and try CBT-I thereafter when I'm in the final stages of weaning off. Thanks so much. But wanted to know what's the difference between using the Bedtyme app vs the Self coaching master program on the website? Which one provides more assistance/guidance working directly with you coach Daniel?
Hi Cindy! Thanks so much for this kind comment - I’m very glad you found it helpful and yes, not beating yourself up - so important truly. The path of least pressure, the gentle and kind way is the best.
You know it’s the same philosophy in two different packages! If you like learning via video (pre-recorded classes and live drop in classes)+ messaging in a community forum, Self Coaching program is perfect. If you like learning through text and communicate 1:1 with your coach, BedTyme is the way. I’m the only coach on BedTyme so if you want my full attention 1:1 that’s best for you.
I will reply to this question tonight when I’m live too. Gives me a perfect chance to talk about theses programs and doing some marketing 😊
Thanks for being here Cindy and be in touch!
Thank you for responding and yes seems this came just in time for me since honestly I was stressing too much and beating up myself since am a very health conscious person. This video changed my perspective. Sounds great, I will definitely do the Bedtyme and yes a very good marketing strategy...🙂.
Very very happy this episode was helpful at this time. Thanks for the support and I’ll look forward to working with you then!!
Hey Daniel! It’s me, David haha do you remember me? I was on your podcast. I just wanna tell you I am starting to get rid of the sleep anxiety and welcome wakefulness and I’ve been feeling better I really appreciate you :) my only problem I still face is I can’t help but wake up around 6-7am no matter what. So I’ll sleep at 10pm, may sleep till 3am then stay up till 4am then fall asleep again till 6-7 and that’s cool. But the other night I stayed up all night talking w some friends and I didn’t get to bed till 5am and then I still woke up at 7am :/ is my body just too set into a rhythm or schedule of some sort? How do I get to sleep at 5am and sleep in till noon or 1pm if I want? Big fan as always I’d really appreciate your input and what you think solutions could be. Thank you!
Hi David! Oh yes of course that was a really fun episode! “The defense is strong” - I can tell that you’ve done some really good thought work and that you are more flexible and the defense is weakening and that is surely why you’re having less sleep anxiety and feel better - 👍
I actually think the next step for someone in your spot is very clear. As I was going through your message I counted 10 times where you talked about a time.
Whenever we humans have a problem with first like to get a sense of what’s going on and get some sort of control. And when it comes to anything except sleep this is usually a great strategy!
However, with sleep it is the opposite, the more we try to control it, the more slippery becomes just like a bar of soap!
Knowing what time it is by checking the clock or by calculating in your mind keeps attention on sleep and keeps good sleep from happening. Letting go of control, not knowing what time it is is a very powerful act of acceptance that will surely reward you!
So I think a great thing to do would be to not check any clocks at all between the time you allow yourself to sleep and the time you get up in the morning. The only time that is good to have pretty consistent and to know about is your rise time, the time you get up in the morning. You can have an alarm set and if the alarm hasn’t gone off, no need to check the time!
Other than that, going completely timeless I am a total believer in. It feels kind of scary because you kind of letting go of control, but that is definitely the way.
And when you no longer wonder how much you slept, when you no longer wonder how you can sleep at this time or that other time, great sleep will come your way!
Thanks so much for all the support and encouragement :-)
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 I gotta work on my punctuality haha thank you so much Daniel I’ll try it tonight lyk how it goes
I think it will be super helpful David and yes - be in touch!!
When you take ambien for a few yrs your receptors are damaged and thus when you ween off you will find being in rebound insomia were you won't sleep until the receptors are healed. DANIEL I would be interested on your thaughts on coming off long term use of ambien and the damage that has been medically documented from the med . And how to deal with re bound insomia due to receptors damage
Hi Gary! You know, I see it this way - yes, because of down regulation of receptors, we can have more wakefulness as we come off ANYTHING that’s sedating. But that’s just wakefulness, not insomnia. Without fear, wakefulness is just that.
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 so what I am dealing with now is more like wakefulness then insomis? But until the receptors are healed I am in for nights of wakefulness ?
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 I see fear turns wakefulness into insomia right?
Sorry ya got this wrong its insomia trust me if ya wentvthrough it you would know better
@thesleepcoachschool8192 no sorry ya wrong on this one I would advise ya ta I jvto a good addiction Dr to fully understand
I worry about being caught out and have to sleep somewhere else and not have my meds. I’m so jealous of people who can sleep in their own
I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with these worries and feelings of jealousy. If you ever need to talk or explore ways to manage these concerns, please reach out. We're hosting live Q&A sessions most weeks and we'd love for you to join us! It's a great chance to ask questions, share insights, and connect with others in the community.
Your well-being is important, and there are ways to support you through this.
What is your suggestion for the belief you can’t sleep without the meds
Thanks for your comment!! Just a quick heads-up: we're hosting live Q&A sessions most weeks and we'd love for you to join us! It's a great chance to ask questions, share insights, and connect with others in the community.
I can’t seem to get off that last 2.5 mg of ambien on the nights before I have to rise early and go to work. If I have nothing to do that day the pressure is off and I can drift back to sleep after awakening after 5-6 hrs of sleep ( which has been happening to me for the last 30 yrs). I’m a nurse so I need to feel rested to perform safely at my job. I know it’s all in my head and that bit of ambien really isn’t doing anything chemically- just psychological dependence. I’m OK taking it other than the fear my doctor will stop prescribing it to me. I look forward to retirement in 2 yrs so I don’t HAVE to get up early and be alert to function well.
Hi. Thanks for sharing and, so much insight here.. it’s tricky this last step, I think often when we no longer pressure ourselves or judge ourselves for taking something, it paradoxically becomes easier to come off. Hope you find much here that will help
Do sleep medications cause dementia later? I've stopped using Trazodone and i'm responding to unisom very well nowadays and getting good sleep 6-7 hours. Lately, I tried to force myself to stop using unisom but it ended up failing only. You are right that the more I pressured myself to stop taking it the more I can't sleep. But I'm worried about unisom long term side-effects so I want to come off of it someday. What do you think about dementia caused by sleeping medications?
Hi! There’s not evidence that medication causes dementia…. Which can help to know as we don’t feel pressured when we aren’t scared 🙂
I take promethazine which I understand is a antihistamine . Am I right you build a tolerance very quickly so prob not working anyway
That’s probably true about tolerance. But imho it’s more the ideas that we can get that create some trouble. The idea that it makes us sleep or the idea that something is wrong because it doesn’t make us sleep. So to me it’s not so much if we take a pill or not that matters, as long as we don’t ascribe how we sleep to it, then there’s no problem!
Wow! Your videos are extremely helpful… many thanks!
For some reason, I have the belief that meds help me fall back asleep after waking up because I would feel sleepy enough to not think that much. What would you say is the best way to tackle this belief? I wonder if it’s really about education or simply letting go of all that control we’re trying to have.
SS, thanks for all the support 🙂 letting things be, ultimately, I think helps so much!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 So would you say meds make it easier to fall back asleep or is it simply our belief in their efficacy?
Been on mirtazapine for about 3 months for insomnia I've been sleeping well now for a good few weeks it. didnt work great at start. Which makes me question is it really helping me sleep now. I want to come off as I want to sleep med free. It definitely helped with day time sleep related worries and anxiety after bad night's. But was never great for putting me to sleep. Hate relying on a crutch.
You have some great insights, and there’s a nice Talking insomnia episode with Nick where we contextualize our thoughts on medication.. this may help.
@thesleepcoachschool8192 thanks Daniel. Is that nick wignall? You have 2 videos with him. Im Day 2 on the lowest dose before I come off completely. Feels like hyper sleep is back waking up alot but time going very fast so must be sleeping somewhat ok. I dont feel as nervous about going back to the bad ones.
Anytime and, glad you’re seeing the reactions easing, that’s really nice. And no, it’s Nick a member of our community. If you search Talking insomnia nick it will show up 👍
@@danh2310how are you doing?
I love these videos. Is the audiobook spoken by you?
Hi! Thanks so much for the kind words :-) I mean to create an audiobook of set it and forget it but it’s not done yet, haven’t started, so so far there are no audio books…
Hi Daniel, when you say “Medication”, are you only referring to sleeping pills? What about antibdepressants and anti-anxiety pills?
Hi Brenda!
I would say (nothing here is medical advice, just my general thoughts!) that it’s similar with all medications used for internal threats like emotions. The chemicals do something, but our thoughts are complex, and our thoughts determine how we feel… there’s no medication that can change individual thoughts or even broad beliefs… so really, I think it’s how we think in general and how we think about medications that matters!
@@thesleepcoachschool8192 So my doctor said that if I dont treat it now, my anxiery could get worse. So I assume the chemicals do something, I suppose.
Hi Brenda,
I say you know, nothing here is medical advice so yes definitely talk to your doctor!
I have taken ambien 13 years and sleep fine but I worry about it.
Still taking it until now?
@@joswa4680Hello are you on sleep pill as well? Have you gotten off of it?
Wow soooooooo good,thanks
Dorrell!! You got it 🙏😊!!
I actually don't mind taking ambien long term but want to decrease to 5mg but I worry that someday my doctor wont give it to me anymore.
Hi, sorry for the late reply! What I often share is that it helps to know that medications work by "delegation". It's when we no longer try to sleep, when we delegate, this really can help. The chemicals imho aren't doing much. Knowing this can help because you see that you slept by yourself all the time!
Thank you because I have been told this sleep these pills give isn’t natural sleep etc and that has actually made me way worse and more scared. It’s funny they say that yet when I have had a sleep study they said my sleep was normal and I had taken a pill.
Good point! Nobody can tell from a sleep test if you took a pill or not, all sleep is natural.. super glad this was helpful to hear 😃
@@lanagrace133Hi are you off your sleep medication?
It has been awhile since I’ve watched your videos but your encouraging words are always on my mind when I am having a bad sleep night. I still have difficulty falling asleep but I have chosen to stop my ambien. It has been two weeks and every night gets a bit better. Your reminder that meds don’t make you sleep is a real comfort. My first night off I did not fall asleep until 3 am but I was expecting that so I was ok and self talked to stay calm about it. I am using Benadryl every night for allergy sinus problems so…that is that. Self care along with your encouraging words, I will sleep med free. I am thankful that I know your videos along with your calming voice is always here on TH-cam when I am having a sleepless night. ❤💫
Hi! Oh yes, I remember your handle but it must’ve been a couple years ago since I saw you. Thanks for being in touch and I’m so glad that the continents is helpful and what you are doing is very brave and courageous, taking this path of education, and kindness. And it really leads where we want to be 😊
@coffeechocolate7364 did you stop successfully?
@@stephaniesteed7653 yes and no...I am using benadryl everynight for sinus so I am using that and an OTC sleep aid. I have made that my mental crutch I think. I'll check back with the channel when I get off those. It is progress...slow and sure. Hope you can do it.