indeed, i get the feeling that the Vulcans are the older brother to humans when i watch the show, they even act that role perfectly. i even see this kind of relationship/behavior whit my little sister, as she was a annoying little prick growing up, but are a powerfull ally now that she is a grown woman.
For a Vulcan, I think _not_ twisting your head off with their bare hands, _is_ controlling their emotions. Vulcan's go fucking _apeshit_ when they lose control, so a little smugness and condescension is probably their version of venting. Humans yell and gesticulate when they're in a rage, Vulcans get snippy.
Vulcans: I believe there is an earth saying, "Curiosity killed the cat." Humans: "... but satisfaction brought it back!" Vulcans: _blank stare intensifies_
@@RonJohn63 Most sayings are like that - we lose parts that utterly change their meaning. Like 'jack of all trades, master of none,' has a second stanza 'better still than a master of one' or 'blood is thicker than water' being a truncation of 'the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.'
I really liked the Andorrans experience with Humanity. Honor and Integrity is a good foundation for an alliance. the Vulcans had to be dragged into that wisdom that Humans and Andorians understood.
The Andorians priced the Humans for There objectivity in comparisen to Vulcans, which drives Vulcans nuts, because Logic is in every Other Cases the Fundament for objectivity
Have to say that Soval said it best in the forge episode of season four, that Vulcans don't know what to do about humans as they complete perplex, surprise and outperform Vulcan's expectations at every turn, that Vulcans are apprehensive and intrigued about what humanity would eventually achieve, which massively informed their decision making process in regards to relations with earth in 2100s.
I think Enterprise does the "Vulcans are space elves" thing very well. They are noble but also arrogant. Their motivations are enigmatic and multi-faceted. Their ships are gorgeous and highly advanced.
I didnt mind the Vulcan's in Enterprise. It was pretty clear that they weren't the Vulcan's we knew. I like that the show did that as it was a very different time for Earth. The idea of the Federation wasn't even a thing. Earth knew it had to stand on its own and didn't want the Vulcan's to come running every time it needed help.
I think they were the Vulcans we knew, look beyond our favorite Vulcan leads and the characteristics are all there. Even our lead vulcans tend to have stories and arcs about facing their limitations (for lack of a better word) as perceived by humans or other crewmembers. Spock in particular is always dealing with his half human side, and the apparent cruelty his Vulcan side can exude. Tuvok had a similar arc in Voyager where he had to earn the trust of his crew by looking past the pure logic of the situation. The Vulcans of ENT are the same collection of traits, but largely removed from the context of integrating with humans. Notably, when people complain about Vulcans in ENT it's usually Vulcans other than T'pol, who shares a similar environment to the other prominent Vulcans. The various Vulcans we see on ENT are living their lives largely insulated within Vulcan culture. Their interactions with humans are a lot more coarse .
@@DrewLSsix The The Motion Picture, Spock says logic and knowledge are not enough -- after he had failed to master all his emotions. Once you realize Vulcans DO have emotions -- but they try to master them AND that they also like to PRETEND they do not have emotions, you can see a lot of depth there as far as characterization and world building.
You know Archer only treated the Vulcans with contempt because they held his father's research back so much and even wanted the exploration of Enterprise to be cancelled. Archer had to deal with the smuggness of the Vulcans up close for decades I always found that subtext very interesting.
Really, as much Archer was an ass during Season 1 with the Vulcans. Kind of made sense. Even with the context you put. After all. How much would you feel. Your life's work was being threaten by these outsiders who meddle in everything you do. Able to sway the politics of your bosses at any moment. To pretty much throw everything you work for away. Personally, there would have been a few dead Vulcan. That point I would have snapped if they got my work canceled. Years of work gone. All because they had a "bad feeling". And I know that is extreme, but let us be real. If Archer didn't go into space as his dream of going beyond whatever the Nanny State told him to be. He would have likely killed someone.
He also change his attitude when he understand better the situation. Like prior to NX era, Earth was mostly operating in relatively safe zone of Vulcan Doman, where Sol Sector is located. So they could take lot of shorts. Like for example in case of emergency they could call Vulcan Warp 7 ship for help, so tiny explorers were sufficient. Archer also learn that his decision of leaving without active or tested weapons, was almost fatal. Or that Vulcan's are rather ignorant in the research, recording only things they find important. It is why Vulcan region basically needed to be re-explored. Point is that he initially though that they withhold information. Instead not having them.
Except they didn’t hold his research back. They just didn’t help him, and they were under no obligation to help him. Yes, they didn't think humans were ready to explore space on their own. But considering that the first thing Archer did when out in space was randomly transmit the location of Earth to hostile aliens then reveal Vulcan military secrets to their enemy, not to mention the first human extra-solar colony failing because the 200 colonists were psychopaths who wanted an entire PLANET for themselves AND their cargo haulers are complete idiots who don’t want faster warp engines…. the Vulcans were absolutely right. Setting aside all that, Archer’s attitude stank. The Vulcans had single-handedly uplifted humanity from the post-atomic horror and Archer has the gall to whine that they didn’t give his dad free stuff. It’d be like the US saving, say, Belgium after it nukes itself and then the Belgians complaining because the US won’t give them free F-22s.
@Poirot Agreed. He glossed over this fact. Plus him saying the eariler Trek series is somewhat timeless, is beyond insulting. They are timeless, what isn't is nu-trek.
Vulcans are like the parent who has a gifted kid that they can neither fully understand nor contain. They want to guide them, but the kid is frustrated and outpacing their parent.
I wonder if there was a certain amount of jealousy, unconcious or not, on the part of the Vulcans. Afterall, Humans accomplished in 150 years what took them over a 1000, the rebuilding of their society after a devestating war. And I also loved the idea that Vulcans held back their tech not out of spite, but to encourage Humans not to be lazy and to build their own stuff. That solves quite a few problems with Enterprise. Great video as always!!!
I agree with this entirely. I don't even know why the Vulcans took it upon themselves to "guide" humanity in the first place. They would take a look at the humans and see how alike they were to Vulcan history and said. "damn they did better than we did."
perfect description of the vulcans....the person who adopts a talented 5 yr old. The child has a great future but MAN is it hard to keep up with that 5 yr old.
Soval even says in enterprise "We don't know what to do about Humans. Of all the species we've made contact with, yours is the only one we can't define. You have the arrogance of Andorians, the stubborn pride of Tellarites."
I did like how Enterprise showed an evolution of the Vulcans as well. I mean, the Vulcans we see in Enterprise aren’t really the same Vulcans as we see in The Original Series. At least political or spiritual wise. The show kind of stating that humans were a lot like Vulcans but seem to be advancing at a faster pace was kind of cool as well.
The Vulcans hid a listening station at their monastery. Not exactly on the up and up....indeed, Vulcans supposedly tell no lies, but Spock does "exaggerate" and use mental reservation all the time. The Vulcans are actually kind of interesting.
Soval put it better when it came to the view of Vulcans opinion's on humans. They saw themselves. Though later on soval always admitted he liked humanity. Vulcan was the big brother. Andorria was the cool uncle And teller was the reliable if gruff neighbor
And Romulans are the unpleasant neighbors you don't want to know. The Klingons are the neighbors you know but don't need an explanation. Orions are self explanatory.
@@merafirewing6591 Romulans are that one cousin whose eyes you wanna gouge out and klingons are that one person you aren't sure you want to kill or fuck
The Vulcans where basically the elder brother who kind of wanna stop humans from doing the "oooh shiny things" but the same time goes "i wonder what gonna happends", and when shit hits the fan, they returns and says "i dont want to say, i told you so, but i told you so", and the Andorians are the cousin that encurage the humans to do the "oooh shinyy things" but it backfires on them. LOVE IT XD
It makes sense for the Vulcans to desire to contain humanity, since we as viewers know that humans from the mirror universe were able to carve an empire with the same level of technology (seemingly) as First Contact. It seems that humans have a potential in Star Trek to go the way of Vulcans or the way of Klingons... and I kinda agree. It was Fallout New Vegas on 21st century Earth without the cool New Vegas stuff, so just the violence. So, humans changed a lot after the Vulcans came. It's hard to imagine Vulcan philosophy not influencing human society in late 21st century, even if it were idealized and miss understood. That's a factor to the creation of the Federation. An enlightened humanity has to unambiguously take on a larger vision of the future to actually be enlightened. That sounds obvious, but the only reality to this is a roaring battlefield of ideas that all claim the throne. But something else has to have happened more than just, "Hey, aliens are real" to move Earth to a more unified state.
Also, I interpret what Archer said as the Vulcans hindering human technological development rather than just refusing to share their own technology (which is understandable).
I feel like the vulcans and andorians were the first main factions for a reason, they are counterparts with some opposite extremes but similar in a number of ways. I like to think andorians finding humans first would have been pretty similar, except for the fact they would make them a protectorate until they started to show how rowdy they really were.
I’ve always believed both species played a tight razor edge how they dealt with humans. Both were cautious around humans. Couldn’t tie them down to a classification. Andorians liked humans were not bias against them in enterprise and prepared to stand up to Vulcans with the allusion they were Vulcan allies. But on the other hands andorians didn’t truly know who close they were. Keeps you on edge. Vulcans couldn’t classify us. If a human looked at you in a funny way they knew it’s about to go down even with Klingons they were cautious for a warrior race. We were not in their level in terms of technology and shop numbers. However we used our minds. Used cunning and in a odd way they respected us.
The Vulcans in ENT always struck me as very Victorian: very prudish, older, intelligent, and established in a comfortable sort-of empire. They see logic (or the self-centered version of it in ENT) as the be-all-end-all in species interaction, which made them very arrogant and hard to deal with. While they were on top in local space, it made them nervous when things (like humans) confronted both their cultural, political, and technological assumptions. To their credit, they grew with the situation, rather than trying to force it to remain in the shape they wanted (or force humanity to conform to them). You see the cultural stuff a lot in the episode where Tripp meets T'Pol's mother.
A rather ... fascinating analysis. I'd agree that a lot of the decisions Vulcans made were good ones (though some of that is due to retrospect rather than in the moment). However, by the time of ENT in the late-2140s/early-2150s I'd point out Vulcan High Command had become compromised due to V'Las being influenced by the Romulans. So, while overall Vulcan actions were logical, it did take the actions of Humanity (and specifically Archer) to correct some of their errors. Also, the thought of the Vulcans (justly) apathetically just "eye rolling" over Humanity's reckless curiosity is a comedic thought.
I'm just having this mental image of Vulcan officials hearing about the latest human escapades, getting an eye twitch, and then going to a secret stash of booze to cope.
It was explained in season 3 by the Vulcan ambassador. It scared the Vulcans to a degree. Humans had an immensense capacity for (self) destruction that reminded Vulcans of their distant past. They could be as emotional as any Andorian, quarrel like Tellarites. Be as ferocious in battle as Klingons, yet be rational when the need was there.
I prefer Strangers from the Sky. Vulcans had not developed *Faster* than light, and 40 Eridani is 10ly away. Their first visit arrived in the mid 1910s. They waited ten years after that expedition to send a second - August 1945. They expected humans would wipe themselves out, and waited a while. Arriving in the mid-1990s, during the Eugenics War. Certain humanity was at an end, they didn't come back until 2045. At that point, Earth had just overthrown the tyrannical UN, and established the UEG, and the Icarus was three years from Alpha Centauri and meeting Zephram Cochrane's people. Narrowly avoiding a tragedy, the two survivors were sent on a DY-100 back toward Vulcan. Then, when humans were on the brink of achieving warp 2, the next Vulcan expedition sent a distress call out near Neptune.
What the Vulcans found amazing about mankind is that it rebounded so soon after a nuclear war which took the vulcans hundreds of years to do. This made the humans like Vulcans but maybe somewhat better.
The Vulcans were scared 💩 less of Terrans because they saw so much of themselves reflected in humanity. It was as much a revelation of the Vulcan psyche as it was the Terran. Soval admitted as much to Admiral Forrest in "The Forge".
How ironic that archer found suraks cartra as well and passed it back to Vulcans who were drifting with the Romulus interference. A human who like you said shined a light to a earlier time in Vulcan restoring their beliefs and saving them.
Apparently they had to cut a scene where a Vulcan fleet came to the defense of Earth when the xindi attacked while the completed sphere. This was supposed to be in the episode where Archer lost his short term memory.
When did Vulcans _first_ visit Earth? Did they have field agents wander around at the time of Tolkien? Because the humans retcon of elves occurs around then and the image goes from small goblin like fae to tall long lived pointy eared humanoids with magical powers and a distant ethereal viewpoint.
@@LanMandragon1720 Remember it was her grandma or great grandma and they were already doing FTL survey missions past Earth in 1957. Iirc the Vulcans are supposed to have achieved warp only as early as the 18th or 19th century meaning the proto Romulans must've been going slower than light when they left around 1000AD. To move colonists is a much bigger job than sending probes so it's much more likely than not imo that they could've had satellites and balloons observing the fall of Rome. Maybe even small crews of explorers contacting isolated groups at least a few centuries before Columbus or right about the time various western European traditions of elves got recorded. With their nuclear war they might not even have any record of those trips ever happening.
In my opinion, the Vulcans were very curious about humans and saw some of themselves in them. The Vulcans, however, continued to view themselves as superior to humans despite their claim that they suppressed their emotions. It is my belief that many human beings of Archer's time were offended by the apparent smugness of many Vulcans. While I disagree with your rather crude assessment of Captain Jonathan Archer, I believe he could have used more tact and diplomatic language when dealing with the Vulcans.
Archer may have been brash at first, but he develops quickly, plus he has good reasons to be sceptical: The vulcans monitor humans like animals in a zoo and deliberately test their capabilities and 'arrogance', like the asteroid episode. They constantly call humans overly emotional, despite humans achieving a far better balance and control than they were able to, the Vulcans can overide his command and not tell him their motives, like T'Pol's mission to apprehend the Vulcan suspect AND he uncovered their subterfuge with the spy base below their temple. To add to this, he then becomes embroiled in their disputes with the Andorians, with the Vulcans still reluctant to fully cooperate AND defends the rejected psychic vulcans who use their empathic abilities. To have these beings lord themselves over you as more advanced and developed, then see all tbeir shortcomings and having it cost you, is very much a reason to hold them in slight contempt imo.
I always find it hilarious how some of the pre- to early-Enterprise vulcan attitudes towards humanity can be seen as "protection" against the andorians because of how close Andoria is to Earth and how violent vulcans perceived andorians to be, only to be undercut by andorians and humans getting along in part because of shared frustrations with Vulcan's leadership (*cough* P'Jem *cough*). It cannot be overstated how important to the founding of the Federation the ability of Earth to serve as a mediator between Andoria and Vulcan really was, and in a sort of bizarre, counterintuitive way, one of the reasons that happened is Andoria and Earth having common ground in Vulcan High Command being a bit of an ass to both of them. Soval and Shran are easily up at the top of my favorite character list in ENT, and their evolutions - both in relation to Starfleet and each other - are, IMO, excellent examples of using character interactions to show the political climate of the setting.
By Enterprise the only Vulcans we had any depth to was Spock who was half human, an Tuvok. That were trained Starfleet officers, serving on mostly human ships. Much like how Worf was not the typical Klingon, these Vulcans were not typical for their species. The cold logical vulcans probably seem like jerks to humans most of the time, while those who chose Starfleet with mostly human ships, had learned how to deal with humans better and tolerate and sometimes embrace some of their oddities, such as telling jokes.
This could make for a good Lower Decks episode. They're checking up on a warp capable planet. They're told kind of the safe boundaries. But what do they do? Cause a ruckus with another non-Federation planet. Cue T'Lynn pointing out this is exactly what Earth did to the Vulcans.
I like the idea of the Vulcans being different in the 22nd century. The problem was, for me, that they didn't fully explore it. I feel that if it had been much more intrusive with the Enterprise and the Romulan interference maybe hinted at somewhere in the later part of the first season it would have worked a lot more. Also didn't help that the human characters were not well rounded till the third season as well.
@@MM22966 I can see that. I actually really like the Kirshara arc because it actually makes the Vulcan High Command out to be bad but I still feel we should have seen more Vulcan interference in the early seasons. Like Archer being told to turn back from some route due to the Vulcans saying it was not a place they should go and the higher ups listening to them. Right now in the first season and second season Archer seems less like someone chaffing under their control and more like a conspiracy theorist or someone with mild racism against Vulcans
I think the Vulcan approach made a lot of sense, to them, here was this volatile, unpredictable, highly emotional species that they'd assumed were on the verge of nuking themselves into oblivion for over a century, then finally did, only to then pop up with a warp drive. As noted in the show, this utterly confounds the Vulcan way of thinking and their own experience recovering from a similar situation. Earth was a wreck at this point too, so there's lots of reasons to try and 'put the brakes on' for Humanity; first, it would appear the Vulcans wanted the Humans to develop their own technology for the most part, some help and direction was offered, but they seemed keen for Earth to do it themselves. This both slows them down, but strengthens them in the long term. Second, the slow pace (for Humans) of warp development presumably prevented people chucking all their resources into that effort, in the century till Enterprise was ready to go, Earth was transformed into a paradise as Humans went through massive cultural change. This likely eased Vulcan concerns at having a bunch of 'literally just finished a nuclear war' people roaming around the quadrant and forced time for wounds to heal and them to influence the generations that would get to explore. I wonder if the 'they should have done more!' position comes more from what we know the relationship becomes rather than what it was, in the early days, Humans must have seemed outright horrifying to Vulcans, and could have easily been a new Andorian or Klingon Empire in the offing. Caution was an entirely logical response...
I think you did a great job analyzing the Vulcans for the most part but to add to that they NEVER truly understood humans. The need to know what is over the next Mountain, on the other side of the Ocean, or across the Galaxy, these make humans forget the price that might have to be paid for the discovery, and the Vulcans never understood that. They never figured out that explorers who died in the attempt were seen by Humans as heroes, while Vulcans would have seen them as impatient unprepared children.
In this as so many other things, when it was in its original run, it could really seem like Enterprise was yanking our chain about messing with canon and all that other stuff, cause you don't even find out later that the High Command's been up to a lot of nonsense and screwing with Vulcan priorities and all... A lot easier to take when you actually have an idea where they're actually going with a lot of that stuff. .....I think that sense of being toyed with as fans kind of led to the early cancellation right when they were starting to get to the meat of what we might have been expecting to see pretty much all along. (That and the way that Xindi arc in the expanse was like plucking the crew right out of the stuff we were hoping to see about the founding of the Federation and exploring the taken-for-granted parts, and made it into kind of a Voyager rehash full of anomalies and time travel stuff and being ...very separated from the whole 'exploring the neighbors' into 'Plot device to isolate the hero ship.' )
@@apotheases Exactly which explorers do you mean, Vikings 1,000 years ago or Native Americans walking into N America at least 30,000 years ago (to start.) Australian aboriginal people needed boats to get to Australia about *60,000 years ago.* Some even believe that Neanderthal must've had boats to settle several Mediterranean islands about *200,000 years ago.* So that's a pretty wide window of just begining to explore... Vulcans nearly wiped themselves out a bit over a thousand years before the 22nd century. It was at that time the forerunners of the Romulans left Vulcan so they must've had some form of interstellar travel and exploration for some time by then even if slower than light otherwise actual colonists wouldn't have been able to entirely leave Vulcan home space. Its more reasonable than not that unmanned landers and flying probes had observed a variety of human cultures at least every few decades since Vulcans achieved warp travel at least, if not from about 1000 AD though it's also possible crewed exploration also occured particularly before those nuclear wars since their records of contact could've been lost, especially if it was the more Romulan losing faction doing the contact.
Hello VG. I tend to agree with your assessment of the Vulcans regarding the Enterprise series. Yes, they come off as Arrogant, mysterious, and impenetrable, but they do have the best interest of Humanity in mind. Although that view is well and truly tinted by Vulcan Culture and History. Humanity's ability to make intuitive leaps always catches the Vulcans unawares. It is antithetical to their Logical and methodical methods and practices. The Vulcan society is balanced, and almost predictable for the most part. Advances are made and distributed in a methodical way, both socially and economically, as well as politically. But Humans are their antithesis to this 'plodding' method of development. To Vulcans, Tradition is an important part of their lives and social structures. And you would NEVER see something introduced into their society in the way Humans adapt to without thought. A 'for instance' might be the introduction of a new 'junk food'. I am 63 years old, and I remember the introduction of 'Bugles'. A cone-shaped, baked, corn derived food item, that swept the markets for decades. Bugles were a 'hot' item for over a decade, before Pringles hit the markets, and started another Junk Food craze. This would never happen on Vulcan. And because it does and can happen on Earth, with Humans, it is a 'racial' blind spot for them. They can never truly predict what a Human will do, or Humanity as a whole. They can only 'estimate', and work off those estimates... which will be totally wrong from time to time. If nothing else, Humanity would force Vulcans to become more understanding of 'alien' cultures, and make them adapt faster than they otherwise would. This, to me at least, is a 'good' thing. But then again, I'm just Human.
Thanks for this. Been looking for thoughts on how Vulcans viewed us, after that exchange between Admiral Forrest & Soval on Enterprise. Where it showed that Vulcans didnt really dislike us but were wary of humanity. searching subreddits etc. but yours did that nicely.
To be fair the Vulcans attempted to warn archer and his superiors that space wasnt all that nice a place and that they had to be careful and not blunder about half cocked. It apparently came off as arrogance and wasnt heeded which is why they sent an unarmed warp five ship out into some of the baddest neighborhoods in the alpha quadrant. I joked to a friend that enterprise is an interesting story about a starship that explores space and continually gets its ass kicked.
Pretty sure 2026 is when WW3 starts, in canon. So we’re safe for a few more years, Putin’s not gonna start a non-canon war, even _he_ isn’t _that_ crazy.
The Vulcans basically aided and protected the Terrans like an older sibling looking out for their younger sibling and trying to prrevent the younger from making the same (Or worse) mistakes that the Vulcans did.
If you watch the Original Series, the Vulcans were always portrayed as mysterious, distant, and even a little threatening. So it seems to me that their Enterprise portrayal is authentic to canon. I thinks some people just have a rose tinted view of Vulcans bacause Spock is very likeable. But Spock is somewhat uncharacteristic of Vulcans, and hes also likeable in part precisely because hes distatant, mysterious, and a little threatening. Hes a classic "bad boy" archetype. Like a Marlon Brando Character.
Good Video. In the Star Trek Universe, the Vulcans were a force of good for humanity and Humanity was lucky to have First Contact with the Vulcans. However, later on, the Humans pulled their weight by helping the Vulcans end the war with Andorians, find their cultural heritage again, defeat the Romulans, and Form the Federation.
Archer did have a chip on his shoulder against the Vulcans in the beginning, also the Human's adaptability was so fast compared to the other alien races the Vulcans met including themselves.
I'm curious how many species the Vulcans were nursing about the same time. Like how many planets did they have regular contact with, both officially and discreetly between 1900 and 2400. Judging by TOS/TNG, Starfleet seemed to visit primitive worlds fairly often, but rarely discussed worlds that were being escorted from first contact thru maturity. Were Humans an odd experiment for Vulcans or one of dozens of races that they were grooming?
"300 years is a mere blink in the life of an elf, I'm patient, I can wait." basically summs up the Vulcan methodology. i also think our giving the vulcans to much credit, after all they are the super-power of the 22nd century so everything they do must be looked at through that lense as well. Meanwhile the Humans are the new X-Factor who actions cannot be predicted very easily if at all.
I agree with your assessment. Heck, I'm not convinced we won't rip ourselves apart. Try getting a human to say, stop at a stop sign, or wear a mask during a pandemic..... Vulcans were right to be cautious
Enterprise was the Trek of my early teens, and yeah even then as a fan I could see the writing on the Vulcans was clumsy. This is a really good take on the portrayal, especially the unwillingness to share technology, it makes a lot of sense and fits with their curiosity and experimental attitudes.
Imagine if Cochrine had met the Andorians or the Orions first instead of the Vulcan's. Could you imagine the shift in paradigms? The Federation would be fundamentally different.
If he would've met the Orions first, there wouldn't be a Federation. And by meeting the Andorians first, it could've been, that the Humans were faster in ship and technology development, but could've dragged into a possible war or at least into the political games of both species
@@richardarriaga6271 Interesting, They might start as a vassal state in the Emerald Chain, viewing the Orion with as much or more suspicion they gave the Vulcans. Interestingly, they would still be in contact with Vulcan as well and might trust them more than the Orion's. Creating the Empire but also accepting Vulcans exclusively as intimate allies
@@hughtonne1775 That might happen if some engineer named Tucker fell for a female Vulcan during her Pon Far. A telepathic link would make a human immune to Orion influence.
@@richardarriaga6271 Mostly, But Orion influence is based on chemistry, not telepathy. There may be other ways around it once the influence has been revealed.
I always liked that the Denobulan (Dr.Phlox’s people) were kind of a cultural antithesis to the Vulcans in some aspects. They’re both long lived races, but while the Vulcans only ever mate with one partner and get around two children, the Denobulan marry in polygamous Couples and get lots of children, creating a wholly different lifestyle. Their cultures got two diametral problems from that, one is dying out from underpopulation while the other needs to expand into space out of overpopulation
Oh man if Vulcan didn’t help with the Kzinti wars Earth must have been pissed. If they promised to keep a volume of space around Earth safe from external threats but then refused to help when aliens were eating humans? Can definitely see how Vulcan would have a lukewarm reputation at best if that’s what they called “help.”
Humans to Vulcans are that little brother that comes up to their face with their finger and wiggles it in front of their nose saying, “I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you…” 😂😂😂😂. My gods, if they ever did that scene…
First contact with Andorians would go really well. Issue would be with the Vulcans. Their mentality in that era and cold relations with Andoria would make them see the situation as making of vassal state close to their border. Earth could become place of conflict between two goverments just like that small moon in Enterprise.
I really do like how Archer eventually came around to understand the Vulcans and even appreciated what they were trying to do for Earth. In contrast, T'pol came to understand humanity and grew to resent how her people treated Earth. Though, to be fair, having your factory reset button hit rapidly by 8in of attitude adjustment (thanks, Tucker) will do strange things to ones logic. 👀
You could argue the concept of humans sweeping the Vulcans into history and the creation of the UFP. Is one of major reasons for the eventual creation of Vulcan separatist movements.
I think one thing that this video overlooks when mentioning Archer, is that he did have legitimate reasons to hold a grudge against the Vulcans. Not only did they hold back Earth's development (for debatable valid reasons), they killed his father's personal scientific endeavors, and would have done the same to his if he had let them. Fighting tooth and nail for one's goals, only to have Vulcans do nothing but sabotage you every step of the way tends to breed such feelings. Even if it was for their "own good", to say there weren't any negative consequences to this Vulcan "big brother" interference would be disingenuous. Something that's given screen time in the show. Also, it should be noted that the Vulcans were actively trying to KEEP Archer and the Enterprise crew from going after the source of the Xindi attack on Earth that killed millions. They wouldn't lift a finger to help, and T'Pol had to resign her commission to help the crew. And even after Archer and the crew were successful (at great cost), the Vulcans STILL wanted to be naysayers when it came to Archer. One particular example was when the Enterprise crew came upon a ship full of Vulcans that had lost their minds and acted more like savage animals than sentient beings. The Vulcan ambassador dared to insinuate that Archer and his people DIDN'T do everything in their power to save them, and falsely reported on events there. Archer of course blew a gasket, and while his delivery and verbal attack on the ambassador was out of line, he CORRECTLY pointed out that the Vulcans were less-than-helpful, and had Earth listened to the Vulcans, Earth would have been destroyed. An outcome that was actually explored in an alternate timeline. Vulcans can be cautious sometimes to the detriment to themselves and others. Especially when they consistently fail to consider the cultures of other races (Humans, Andorians, etc). Of course, the same can be said of human curiosity, but that is when those sides of the coin should meet in the middle. Something the two races didn't learn to do until MUCH later. Which is after everyone discovers the corruption rooted in the Vulcan High Command by Archer and his crew, teamed up with that aforementioned ambassador that always seemed to be at odds with him. So yeah, the situation was far more complex than one might think it to be at first glance. Two cultures butting heads with few to no one trying to meet in the middle. But thankfully Archer's character development showed that it was still possible to do so. Especially when as previously stated, he worked with that Vulcan ambassador he didn't much care for. The same one that tried to label Archer as impulsive, insane, and/or a liar. And that's the beauty of classic Star Trek. The characters learning and evolving as they explore the cosmos, and as a result, exploring themselves as they do. And as the video correctly stated, NO ONE could have predicted the formation of the Federation. At least not without time travel, but that's a topic for another time. Cheers~!
Since the Romulans are a kin to the Vulcans, they share this interest and on next generations that was mentioned about the Romulans, when the Romulans came back out after a long abstence. Since the Romulans kepted the war like nature of the past, thats as far it went.
Control (the book one, not the silly Discovery one) got into Vulcan computer systems even before the founding of the Federation. Federation was inevitable. But they got nested into its expanding protective cocoon early on.
Also makes you think how much help the Vulcans gave Earth in rebuilding of the planet. I mean, did they help clean up the nuclear radiation that was probably around a lot of the major cities? Were they there to help rebuild the infrastructure? Also did they pacify any lingering hostile factions with their presence? This right here could be a series to explore this era in trek history.
I think it's a good way to explain the Vulcan's in this time frame, is to compare them to those Korean are Japanese novels and comics where someone is reborn into a book they read, or reborn into a history that they know... Like they're watching cause they don't wanna like mess anything up, but at the same time they're constantly slapping themselves in the face because they know how things are going to end or at least they sort of have a second hand embarrassment
Of course the early 2000s were a different time. Those of us who lived through the 80s were the survivors of the Eugenics Wars. Kids today don't know what that was like! Though most of what Archer seemed to be pissed about was the fact that the Vulcans didn't give them their (relatively) super tech. Because if there's one thing humans always do, it's distributing to anyone who asks the details of how to build (eg) a Stealth Bomber.
The Vulcans of early Star Trek were arrogant and militaristic. Only finding the words of Sarak in Enterprise changed them to pacifism. In reality, it was humans that changed Vulcans not the other way around.
They weren’t dicks in TOS at all. It’s only been the last 20 years that they’ve been turned into arrogant and angry, completely out of character with things like IDIC and the original show.
I have to say that I enjoyed how they are portrayed. I feel the Enterprise portrayal is more realistic. People aren’t angels, intelligence doesn’t equal good behavior. Vulcan tend to behave like self-righteous big brothers that don’t know nearly as much as they believe they do. They condescend, they don’t even attempt to meet Humans halfway in terms of being congenial. The Vulcan captain who came on board for dinner in “Breaking The Ice” is a great example. I didn’t expect for him to have understood that it’s generally considered impolite to eat prior to having dinner with a group, but at least he could not sit like an angry, bored teen the whole time. Try to chat with Archer even if that’s not usual between Vulcans during meals. Archer wasn’t being a dick to him. Archer was responding to his non-verbal cues of “I don’t give a damn, want to be here, and definitely don’t wish to talk to you”. That behavior was uncalled for and immature. They pretend to be accepting of everyone, but its a lie to they tell themselves to seem like they so damn evolved…. They got just as many issues as Humans. Humans are just honest about theirs.
The Vulcan did what they could to help the Humans. But that help meant they purposely held humantu back. Archer was not a dick. He just resented the Vulcan holding humanity back, and treating us like children (even though we were/are). The Vulcan also had there own agenda, they were not belevinant benefactors. They saw the Humans as a possible threat. And did everything they could short of conquest to keep is in line. The whole story line of spyung on the Andorians proves the Vulcan were not simply helping. They wanted the Humans to become an allie against Andorra. But the Humans turned it around In them. Lived Enterprise. Had so much potential. Sure wished they could have gotten into the Earth Romulan war....
Since the Vulcans had of course had thier own horrific nuclear wars in the distant past l think at the time of First Contact they perhaps saw humans of that time as perhaps a mirror image of thier own early selves. And, regardless of the way they may have acted on the surface in the years after that, still deep down inside still had a genuine and earnest desire to see mankind through to better days. Ane perhaps to even a more logical way of life. At least l would like to believe that
Full disclosure, I did not watch this video, I only read the title. Here's what I think is the Vulcan perspective is: Vulcan 1: Shit, Humans got warp drive. Vulcan 2: Well, I guess we should drop in. Vulcan 1: *sigh* do we have to?" This applies to both the Prime timeline and the Mirror universe.
I don't think that Archer was a "Dick" at all. The Vulcans preference was that the humans stayed on Earth and leave space to the adults. They didn't understand humans. Humans push the envelope. That's how we advance. We take risks, fail, rebound and come out stronger. We don't advance in a logical manner. We also get upset when people get in the way of advancement. It's worse when outsiders do it. Archer was just frustrated and had lost his patience with the Vulcans.
I honestly bounced off Enterprise with the first ep or so because I felt like there was too much whining about the Vulcans. Do need to give it another go, given later seasons. I can absolutely see the Vulcans trying to tiptoe around what they can and can't give, and I like the idea that they wanted humanity to figure stuff out for themselves rather than rely on the Vulcans for the tech.
The early Vulcan attitude toward Earth could be summed up as being containment. They'd been watching us for decades, on and off, and knew what we were like. They knew we'd had a nuclear war and probably thought we'd eventually die out, but the _Phoenix_ warp signature shocked them. Uh-oh, the dangerous bacillus has just found a vector, better intervene. And so they did. Think of George Kennan policy of containing the Soviet Union in the 1940's.
Vulcans had no doubt dealt with other "passionate" races like Andorians, etc. So I don't know why they would be so surprised at human developments (technological, expansions, colonization, exploration, general rate of, etc.)
I think the Andorians were more passionate than the Vulcans and the Klingons more aggressive, ect.. but Humans had this magical mix of passion, aggression, logic, ingenuity that enabled them to progress faster than expected. Too much of any one trait to the exclusion of others would slow progress.
![เปิดใจ พี่ญา คนรุม หลังทัวร์ลง หนักสุดในชีวิต!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2-OJZRtclro/mqdefault.jpg)
Let's be realistic, Humans are very good at _annoying_ Vulcans.
And Humans take a particular joy in doing so.
indeed, i get the feeling that the Vulcans are the older brother to humans when i watch the show, they even act that role perfectly. i even see this kind of relationship/behavior whit my little sister, as she was a annoying little prick growing up, but are a powerfull ally now that she is a grown woman.
Because humans are capable of coming up with a perfectly logical reason for something via incredibly illogical means.
Of course! Gotta keep those green-blooded hobgoblins on their toes...
For a Vulcan, I think _not_ twisting your head off with their bare hands, _is_ controlling their emotions. Vulcan's go fucking _apeshit_ when they lose control, so a little smugness and condescension is probably their version of venting. Humans yell and gesticulate when they're in a rage, Vulcans get snippy.
@@dmgroberts5471 Vulcans losing emotional control is straight up Resident Evil horror
Vulcans: I believe there is an earth saying, "Curiosity killed the cat."
Humans: "... but satisfaction brought it back!"
Vulcans: _blank stare intensifies_
In all my many decades, I never heard that second stanza. But I _do_ know "don't be a scaredy cat".
@@RonJohn63 Most sayings are like that - we lose parts that utterly change their meaning. Like 'jack of all trades, master of none,' has a second stanza 'better still than a master of one' or 'blood is thicker than water' being a truncation of 'the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.'
I really liked the Andorrans experience with Humanity. Honor and Integrity is a good foundation for an alliance. the Vulcans had to be dragged into that wisdom that Humans and Andorians understood.
The Andorians priced the Humans for There objectivity in comparisen to Vulcans, which drives Vulcans nuts, because Logic is in every Other Cases the Fundament for objectivity
Andorians were the best part of Enterprise. Thy'lek Shran never failed to entertain and is an all around delightful character.
@@TheMem513185 'Me--ow...' , says the Kzinti.
Have to say that Soval said it best in the forge episode of season four, that Vulcans don't know what to do about humans as they complete perplex, surprise and outperform Vulcan's expectations at every turn, that Vulcans are apprehensive and intrigued about what humanity would eventually achieve, which massively informed their decision making process in regards to relations with earth in 2100s.
I think Enterprise does the "Vulcans are space elves" thing very well. They are noble but also arrogant. Their motivations are enigmatic and multi-faceted. Their ships are gorgeous and highly advanced.
Vulcans are not space elves. You're a child.
What if Vulcan field explorers were the origins of the Elven mythology?
@@Treklosopher A strong statement given that neither Elves nor Vulcans actually exist.
@@Treklosopher, that's as maybe, but I don't insult people who have a different perspective than I do. Also yes, they are.
Vulcan = Highe Elf
Romulan = Dark Elf
Remans = Goblin
Klingon = Orc
Andorian = Dwarf (but not the short ones)
I didnt mind the Vulcan's in Enterprise. It was pretty clear that they weren't the Vulcan's we knew. I like that the show did that as it was a very different time for Earth. The idea of the Federation wasn't even a thing. Earth knew it had to stand on its own and didn't want the Vulcan's to come running every time it needed help.
I think they were the Vulcans we knew, look beyond our favorite Vulcan leads and the characteristics are all there. Even our lead vulcans tend to have stories and arcs about facing their limitations (for lack of a better word) as perceived by humans or other crewmembers.
Spock in particular is always dealing with his half human side, and the apparent cruelty his Vulcan side can exude. Tuvok had a similar arc in Voyager where he had to earn the trust of his crew by looking past the pure logic of the situation.
The Vulcans of ENT are the same collection of traits, but largely removed from the context of integrating with humans. Notably, when people complain about Vulcans in ENT it's usually Vulcans other than T'pol, who shares a similar environment to the other prominent Vulcans. The various Vulcans we see on ENT are living their lives largely insulated within Vulcan culture. Their interactions with humans are a lot more coarse .
Nor should they be. Societies and people change over time.
@@DrewLSsix The The Motion Picture, Spock says logic and knowledge are not enough -- after he had failed to master all his emotions. Once you realize Vulcans DO have emotions -- but they try to master them AND that they also like to PRETEND they do not have emotions, you can see a lot of depth there as far as characterization and world building.
Just a side note, it’s Vulcans. Not Vulcan’s. You don’t need the apostrophe for plurals. Just in case you didn’t know that, bcs you wrote it 3 times.
Plus they were a bit different until the writings of Surak were found, kind of put them back onto a good path.
You know Archer only treated the Vulcans with contempt because they held his father's research back so much and even wanted the exploration of Enterprise to be cancelled. Archer had to deal with the smuggness of the Vulcans up close for decades I always found that subtext very interesting.
yes this
Really, as much Archer was an ass during Season 1 with the Vulcans. Kind of made sense. Even with the context you put.
After all. How much would you feel. Your life's work was being threaten by these outsiders who meddle in everything you do. Able to sway the politics of your bosses at any moment. To pretty much throw everything you work for away.
Personally, there would have been a few dead Vulcan. That point I would have snapped if they got my work canceled. Years of work gone. All because they had a "bad feeling". And I know that is extreme, but let us be real. If Archer didn't go into space as his dream of going beyond whatever the Nanny State told him to be. He would have likely killed someone.
He also change his attitude when he understand better the situation. Like prior to NX era, Earth was mostly operating in relatively safe zone of Vulcan Doman, where Sol Sector is located. So they could take lot of shorts. Like for example in case of emergency they could call Vulcan Warp 7 ship for help, so tiny explorers were sufficient. Archer also learn that his decision of leaving without active or tested weapons, was almost fatal. Or that Vulcan's are rather ignorant in the research, recording only things they find important. It is why Vulcan region basically needed to be re-explored. Point is that he initially though that they withhold information. Instead not having them.
Except they didn’t hold his research back.
They just didn’t help him, and they were under no obligation to help him.
Yes, they didn't think humans were ready to explore space on their own.
But considering that the first thing Archer did when out in space was randomly transmit the location of Earth to hostile aliens then reveal Vulcan military secrets to their enemy, not to mention the first human extra-solar colony failing because the 200 colonists were psychopaths who wanted an entire PLANET for themselves AND their cargo haulers are complete idiots who don’t want faster warp engines…. the Vulcans were absolutely right.
Setting aside all that, Archer’s attitude stank. The Vulcans had single-handedly uplifted humanity from the post-atomic horror and Archer has the gall to whine that they didn’t give his dad free stuff.
It’d be like the US saving, say, Belgium after it nukes itself and then the Belgians complaining because the US won’t give them free F-22s.
@Poirot Agreed. He glossed over this fact. Plus him saying the eariler Trek series is somewhat timeless, is beyond insulting. They are timeless, what isn't is nu-trek.
Vulcans are like the parent who has a gifted kid that they can neither fully understand nor contain. They want to guide them, but the kid is frustrated and outpacing their parent.
I wonder if there was a certain amount of jealousy, unconcious or not, on the part of the Vulcans. Afterall, Humans accomplished in 150 years what took them over a 1000, the rebuilding of their society after a devestating war.
And I also loved the idea that Vulcans held back their tech not out of spite, but to encourage Humans not to be lazy and to build their own stuff. That solves quite a few problems with Enterprise.
Great video as always!!!
T'pol was prone to jealousy, so other Vulcans probably were as well
Vulcan lifespan 300 years?
I my opinion, the Vulcans held back their tech not to push humans higher, but because they feared our expansionistic culture.
I agree with this entirely. I don't even know why the Vulcans took it upon themselves to "guide" humanity in the first place. They would take a look at the humans and see how alike they were to Vulcan history and said. "damn they did better than we did."
I think the vulcans were thinking:
"Holy crap this civilization destroyed itself and just broke the light barrier at the same time"
Ngl that makes the Vulcan’s fear on humanity so much more understandable. Should have been a line in the show.
Remember, Archer grew up watching the Vulcans jerk around his father and stifle his work at every opportunity. No wonder he felt some resentment.
perfect description of the vulcans....the person who adopts a talented 5 yr old. The child has a great future but MAN is it hard to keep up with that 5 yr old.
Vulcan's seem intrigued by the fact that humans can be at times almost as logical as they are but at others are emotional and chaotic.
Soval even says in enterprise "We don't know what to do about Humans. Of all the species we've made contact with, yours is the only one we can't define. You have the arrogance of Andorians, the stubborn pride of Tellarites."
So they think humans are chiks
*Vulcans. Apostrophes play no part in plurals.
I did like how Enterprise showed an evolution of the Vulcans as well. I mean, the Vulcans we see in Enterprise aren’t really the same Vulcans as we see in The Original Series. At least political or spiritual wise. The show kind of stating that humans were a lot like Vulcans but seem to be advancing at a faster pace was kind of cool as well.
The Vulcans hid a listening station at their monastery. Not exactly on the up and up....indeed, Vulcans supposedly tell no lies, but Spock does "exaggerate" and use mental reservation all the time. The Vulcans are actually kind of interesting.
Soval put it better when it came to the view of Vulcans opinion's on humans.
They saw themselves. Though later on soval always admitted he liked humanity.
Vulcan was the big brother.
Andorria was the cool uncle
And teller was the reliable if gruff neighbor
Enterprise really made me like the Andorians. Well, Jeffrey Combs made me like Andorians truth be told lol.
And Romulans are the unpleasant neighbors you don't want to know.
The Klingons are the neighbors you know but don't need an explanation.
Orions are self explanatory.
Yeah tellerites are the cool neighbor that’s always half drunk
Seeing as how my uncle (the cool uncle of the family) was always my favorite relative, my fondness for Andorians makes a lot more sense now
@@merafirewing6591 Romulans are that one cousin whose eyes you wanna gouge out and klingons are that one person you aren't sure you want to kill or fuck
The Vulcans where basically the elder brother who kind of wanna stop humans from doing the "oooh shiny things" but the same time goes "i wonder what gonna happends", and when shit hits the fan, they returns and says "i dont want to say, i told you so, but i told you so", and the Andorians are the cousin that encurage the humans to do the "oooh shinyy things" but it backfires on them. LOVE IT XD
Imagine Zephram Cochrane making First Contact with the Tellarites. 🤣
It makes sense for the Vulcans to desire to contain humanity, since we as viewers know that humans from the mirror universe were able to carve an empire with the same level of technology (seemingly) as First Contact. It seems that humans have a potential in Star Trek to go the way of Vulcans or the way of Klingons... and I kinda agree. It was Fallout New Vegas on 21st century Earth without the cool New Vegas stuff, so just the violence. So, humans changed a lot after the Vulcans came.
It's hard to imagine Vulcan philosophy not influencing human society in late 21st century, even if it were idealized and miss understood. That's a factor to the creation of the Federation. An enlightened humanity has to unambiguously take on a larger vision of the future to actually be enlightened. That sounds obvious, but the only reality to this is a roaring battlefield of ideas that all claim the throne. But something else has to have happened more than just, "Hey, aliens are real" to move Earth to a more unified state.
Also, I interpret what Archer said as the Vulcans hindering human technological development rather than just refusing to share their own technology (which is understandable).
I feel like the vulcans and andorians were the first main factions for a reason, they are counterparts with some opposite extremes but similar in a number of ways. I like to think andorians finding humans first would have been pretty similar, except for the fact they would make them a protectorate until they started to show how rowdy they really were.
Well UE was also a protectorate under the Vulcans. Till it wasn’t.
I’ve always believed both species played a tight razor edge how they dealt with humans. Both were cautious around humans. Couldn’t tie them down to a classification. Andorians liked humans were not bias against them in enterprise and prepared to stand up to Vulcans with the allusion they were Vulcan allies. But on the other hands andorians didn’t truly know who close they were. Keeps you on edge. Vulcans couldn’t classify us. If a human looked at you in a funny way they knew it’s about to go down even with Klingons they were cautious for a warrior race. We were not in their level in terms of technology and shop numbers. However we used our minds. Used cunning and in a odd way they respected us.
The Vulcans in ENT always struck me as very Victorian: very prudish, older, intelligent, and established in a comfortable sort-of empire. They see logic (or the self-centered version of it in ENT) as the be-all-end-all in species interaction, which made them very arrogant and hard to deal with. While they were on top in local space, it made them nervous when things (like humans) confronted both their cultural, political, and technological assumptions. To their credit, they grew with the situation, rather than trying to force it to remain in the shape they wanted (or force humanity to conform to them).
You see the cultural stuff a lot in the episode where Tripp meets T'Pol's mother.
A rather ... fascinating analysis.
I'd agree that a lot of the decisions Vulcans made were good ones (though some of that is due to retrospect rather than in the moment). However, by the time of ENT in the late-2140s/early-2150s I'd point out Vulcan High Command had become compromised due to V'Las being influenced by the Romulans.
So, while overall Vulcan actions were logical, it did take the actions of Humanity (and specifically Archer) to correct some of their errors.
Also, the thought of the Vulcans (justly) apathetically just "eye rolling" over Humanity's reckless curiosity is a comedic thought.
I'm just having this mental image of Vulcan officials hearing about the latest human escapades, getting an eye twitch, and then going to a secret stash of booze to cope.
It was explained in season 3 by the Vulcan ambassador. It scared the Vulcans to a degree. Humans had an immensense capacity for (self) destruction that reminded Vulcans of their distant past. They could be as emotional as any Andorian, quarrel like Tellarites. Be as ferocious in battle as Klingons, yet be rational when the need was there.
Don’t forget we could scheme like romulans if we wanted to
Also as cunning and treacherous as Romulans (Sisko case), don't forget that.
Well done. Clear and concise analysis of the Vulcan view of first contact with humans.
I prefer Strangers from the Sky. Vulcans had not developed *Faster* than light, and 40 Eridani is 10ly away. Their first visit arrived in the mid 1910s. They waited ten years after that expedition to send a second - August 1945. They expected humans would wipe themselves out, and waited a while. Arriving in the mid-1990s, during the Eugenics War. Certain humanity was at an end, they didn't come back until 2045. At that point, Earth had just overthrown the tyrannical UN, and established the UEG, and the Icarus was three years from Alpha Centauri and meeting Zephram Cochrane's people. Narrowly avoiding a tragedy, the two survivors were sent on a DY-100 back toward Vulcan.
Then, when humans were on the brink of achieving warp 2, the next Vulcan expedition sent a distress call out near Neptune.
An excellent video essay on enterprise I hadn’t thought of this series in a while.
You had a great take on this video. The comments are also solid.
What the Vulcans found amazing about mankind is that it rebounded so soon after a nuclear war which took the vulcans hundreds of years to do. This made the humans like Vulcans but maybe somewhat better.
Vulcans played the role of space elves really well.
The Vulcans were basically the adults in the room.
The Vulcans were scared 💩 less of Terrans because they saw so much of themselves reflected in humanity. It was as much a revelation of the Vulcan psyche as it was the Terran. Soval admitted as much to Admiral Forrest in "The Forge".
How ironic that archer found suraks cartra as well and passed it back to Vulcans who were drifting with the Romulus interference. A human who like you said shined a light to a earlier time in Vulcan restoring their beliefs and saving them.
Apparently they had to cut a scene where a Vulcan fleet came to the defense of Earth when the xindi attacked while the completed sphere. This was supposed to be in the episode where Archer lost his short term memory.
Would have been nice. For that matter where was the rest of starfleet during the actual attack!
@@venomgeekmedia9886in the dreams of the vfx guys when they were given the budget
When did Vulcans _first_ visit Earth?
Did they have field agents wander around at the time of Tolkien?
Because the humans retcon of elves occurs around then and the image goes from small goblin like fae to tall long lived pointy eared humanoids with magical powers and a distant ethereal viewpoint.
There is that episode where Tpols grandma is in the Uin the 60s so maybe so.
@@LanMandragon1720 Remember it was her grandma or great grandma and they were already doing FTL survey missions past Earth in 1957. Iirc the Vulcans are supposed to have achieved warp only as early as the 18th or 19th century meaning the proto Romulans must've been going slower than light when they left around 1000AD. To move colonists is a much bigger job than sending probes so it's much more likely than not imo that they could've had satellites and balloons observing the fall of Rome. Maybe even small crews of explorers contacting isolated groups at least a few centuries before Columbus or right about the time various western European traditions of elves got recorded. With their nuclear war they might not even have any record of those trips ever happening.
@@LanMandragon1720 Close, Carbon Creek took place in 1957. The Vulcans were observing Sputnik.
@@williammckinney4090 Thanks,it's been years since I watched Enterprise and I didn't remember the exact year.
Elves are human-sized in Greek and Slavic mythology.
I like the Terran variation of the Vulcans / Earth first contact .
In my opinion, the Vulcans were very curious about humans and saw some of themselves in them. The Vulcans, however, continued to view themselves as superior to humans despite their claim that they suppressed their emotions.
It is my belief that many human beings of Archer's time were offended by the apparent smugness of many Vulcans. While I disagree with your rather crude assessment of Captain Jonathan Archer, I believe he could have used more tact and diplomatic language when dealing with the Vulcans.
Archer may have been brash at first, but he develops quickly, plus he has good reasons to be sceptical: The vulcans monitor humans like animals in a zoo and deliberately test their capabilities and 'arrogance', like the asteroid episode. They constantly call humans overly emotional, despite humans achieving a far better balance and control than they were able to, the Vulcans can overide his command and not tell him their motives, like T'Pol's mission to apprehend the Vulcan suspect AND he uncovered their subterfuge with the spy base below their temple.
To add to this, he then becomes embroiled in their disputes with the Andorians, with the Vulcans still reluctant to fully cooperate AND defends the rejected psychic vulcans who use their empathic abilities.
To have these beings lord themselves over you as more advanced and developed, then see all tbeir shortcomings and having it cost you, is very much a reason to hold them in slight contempt imo.
I always find it hilarious how some of the pre- to early-Enterprise vulcan attitudes towards humanity can be seen as "protection" against the andorians because of how close Andoria is to Earth and how violent vulcans perceived andorians to be, only to be undercut by andorians and humans getting along in part because of shared frustrations with Vulcan's leadership (*cough* P'Jem *cough*). It cannot be overstated how important to the founding of the Federation the ability of Earth to serve as a mediator between Andoria and Vulcan really was, and in a sort of bizarre, counterintuitive way, one of the reasons that happened is Andoria and Earth having common ground in Vulcan High Command being a bit of an ass to both of them.
Soval and Shran are easily up at the top of my favorite character list in ENT, and their evolutions - both in relation to Starfleet and each other - are, IMO, excellent examples of using character interactions to show the political climate of the setting.
By Enterprise the only Vulcans we had any depth to was Spock who was half human, an Tuvok. That were trained Starfleet officers, serving on mostly human ships.
Much like how Worf was not the typical Klingon, these Vulcans were not typical for their species. The cold logical vulcans probably seem like jerks to humans most of the time, while those who chose Starfleet with mostly human ships, had learned how to deal with humans better and tolerate and sometimes embrace some of their oddities, such as telling jokes.
In take me out to the holosuite we see a 24th century vulcan captain. Little has changed...
@@venomgeekmedia9886 those vulcans served on a Vulcan only ship. So they had little opportunity or desire to change their behavior.
On board since 9/8/1966, I'd say your thinking is spot on regarding Vulcans & Humans.
This could make for a good Lower Decks episode. They're checking up on a warp capable planet. They're told kind of the safe boundaries. But what do they do? Cause a ruckus with another non-Federation planet.
Cue T'Lynn pointing out this is exactly what Earth did to the Vulcans.
I like the idea of the Vulcans being different in the 22nd century. The problem was, for me, that they didn't fully explore it. I feel that if it had been much more intrusive with the Enterprise and the Romulan interference maybe hinted at somewhere in the later part of the first season it would have worked a lot more. Also didn't help that the human characters were not well rounded till the third season as well.
Part of the problem is ENT got cancelled early. We never got the Romulan War season, which would have showed a lot of that.
@@MM22966 I can see that. I actually really like the Kirshara arc because it actually makes the Vulcan High Command out to be bad but I still feel we should have seen more Vulcan interference in the early seasons.
Like Archer being told to turn back from some route due to the Vulcans saying it was not a place they should go and the higher ups listening to them.
Right now in the first season and second season Archer seems less like someone chaffing under their control and more like a conspiracy theorist or someone with mild racism against Vulcans
Thank you so much...This video was very imformative about one of my favorite races, The Vulcans !!!!
I think the Vulcan approach made a lot of sense, to them, here was this volatile, unpredictable, highly emotional species that they'd assumed were on the verge of nuking themselves into oblivion for over a century, then finally did, only to then pop up with a warp drive. As noted in the show, this utterly confounds the Vulcan way of thinking and their own experience recovering from a similar situation.
Earth was a wreck at this point too, so there's lots of reasons to try and 'put the brakes on' for Humanity; first, it would appear the Vulcans wanted the Humans to develop their own technology for the most part, some help and direction was offered, but they seemed keen for Earth to do it themselves. This both slows them down, but strengthens them in the long term. Second, the slow pace (for Humans) of warp development presumably prevented people chucking all their resources into that effort, in the century till Enterprise was ready to go, Earth was transformed into a paradise as Humans went through massive cultural change. This likely eased Vulcan concerns at having a bunch of 'literally just finished a nuclear war' people roaming around the quadrant and forced time for wounds to heal and them to influence the generations that would get to explore.
I wonder if the 'they should have done more!' position comes more from what we know the relationship becomes rather than what it was, in the early days, Humans must have seemed outright horrifying to Vulcans, and could have easily been a new Andorian or Klingon Empire in the offing. Caution was an entirely logical response...
I'd love to see a battlespace or history video on the Kzinti war. My American accent pronunces it more like "sin-tea".
I think you did a great job analyzing the Vulcans for the most part but to add to that they NEVER truly understood humans. The need to know what is over the next Mountain, on the other side of the Ocean, or across the Galaxy, these make humans forget the price that might have to be paid for the discovery, and the Vulcans never understood that. They never figured out that explorers who died in the attempt were seen by Humans as heroes, while Vulcans would have seen them as impatient unprepared children.
In this as so many other things, when it was in its original run, it could really seem like Enterprise was yanking our chain about messing with canon and all that other stuff, cause you don't even find out later that the High Command's been up to a lot of nonsense and screwing with Vulcan priorities and all... A lot easier to take when you actually have an idea where they're actually going with a lot of that stuff. .....I think that sense of being toyed with as fans kind of led to the early cancellation right when they were starting to get to the meat of what we might have been expecting to see pretty much all along.
(That and the way that Xindi arc in the expanse was like plucking the crew right out of the stuff we were hoping to see about the founding of the Federation and exploring the taken-for-granted parts, and made it into kind of a Voyager rehash full of anomalies and time travel stuff and being ...very separated from the whole 'exploring the neighbors' into 'Plot device to isolate the hero ship.' )
I wonder if the Vulcans observed humanity when they're still barely beginning to explore the world they inhabit?
I think T'Pols great grandmother was on earth in the 1950s-60s iirc and was like the first Vulcan-Human interaction. I think she was undercover
I think the Vulcans were in the midst of their own world war during that time period.
@@apotheases Exactly which explorers do you mean, Vikings 1,000 years ago or Native Americans walking into N America at least 30,000 years ago (to start.) Australian aboriginal people needed boats to get to Australia about *60,000 years ago.* Some even believe that Neanderthal must've had boats to settle several Mediterranean islands about *200,000 years ago.* So that's a pretty wide window of just begining to explore...
Vulcans nearly wiped themselves out a bit over a thousand years before the 22nd century. It was at that time the forerunners of the Romulans left Vulcan so they must've had some form of interstellar travel and exploration for some time by then even if slower than light otherwise actual colonists wouldn't have been able to entirely leave Vulcan home space. Its more reasonable than not that unmanned landers and flying probes had observed a variety of human cultures at least every few decades since Vulcans achieved warp travel at least, if not from about 1000 AD though it's also possible crewed exploration also occured particularly before those nuclear wars since their records of contact could've been lost, especially if it was the more Romulan losing faction doing the contact.
@@johnassal5838 like during the era of the age of sail?
@@johnassal5838 like around the span of the early 1500s to the late 19th century and etc.
Hello VG.
I tend to agree with your assessment of the Vulcans regarding the Enterprise series. Yes, they come off as Arrogant, mysterious, and impenetrable, but they do have the best interest of Humanity in mind. Although that view is well and truly tinted by Vulcan Culture and History.
Humanity's ability to make intuitive leaps always catches the Vulcans unawares. It is antithetical to their Logical and methodical methods and practices.
The Vulcan society is balanced, and almost predictable for the most part. Advances are made and distributed in a methodical way, both socially and economically, as well as politically. But Humans are their antithesis to this 'plodding' method of development.
To Vulcans, Tradition is an important part of their lives and social structures. And you would NEVER see something introduced into their society in the way Humans adapt to without thought. A 'for instance' might be the introduction of a new 'junk food'. I am 63 years old, and I remember the introduction of 'Bugles'. A cone-shaped, baked, corn derived food item, that swept the markets for decades. Bugles were a 'hot' item for over a decade, before Pringles hit the markets, and started another Junk Food craze.
This would never happen on Vulcan. And because it does and can happen on Earth, with Humans, it is a 'racial' blind spot for them. They can never truly predict what a Human will do, or Humanity as a whole. They can only 'estimate', and work off those estimates... which will be totally wrong from time to time.
If nothing else, Humanity would force Vulcans to become more understanding of 'alien' cultures, and make them adapt faster than they otherwise would. This, to me at least, is a 'good' thing. But then again, I'm just Human.
Thanks for this. Been looking for thoughts on how Vulcans viewed us, after that exchange between Admiral Forrest & Soval on Enterprise. Where it showed that Vulcans didnt really dislike us but were wary of humanity. searching subreddits etc. but yours did that nicely.
To be fair the Vulcans attempted to warn archer and his superiors that space wasnt all that nice a place and that they had to be careful and not blunder about half cocked. It apparently came off as arrogance and wasnt heeded which is why they sent an unarmed warp five ship out into some of the baddest neighborhoods in the alpha quadrant. I joked to a friend that enterprise is an interesting story about a starship that explores space and continually gets its ass kicked.
This would be a great start to a set of videos about the how the federation started to form.
What if the Andorians met humans before the Vulcans? We must have that video.
Vulcans in 2024(5?) after seeing the Russia vs Ukraine conflict end: "Good, humans aren't going to nuke themselves."
30 Years Later: "Never mind."
Lel.
Pretty sure 2026 is when WW3 starts, in canon. So we’re safe for a few more years, Putin’s not gonna start a non-canon war, even _he_ isn’t _that_ crazy.
The Vulcans basically aided and protected the Terrans like an older sibling looking out for their younger sibling and trying to prrevent the younger from making the same (Or worse) mistakes that the Vulcans did.
If you watch the Original Series, the Vulcans were always portrayed as mysterious, distant, and even a little threatening. So it seems to me that their Enterprise portrayal is authentic to canon. I thinks some people just have a rose tinted view of Vulcans bacause Spock is very likeable. But Spock is somewhat uncharacteristic of Vulcans, and hes also likeable in part precisely because hes distatant, mysterious, and a little threatening. Hes a classic "bad boy" archetype. Like a Marlon Brando Character.
Good Video. In the Star Trek Universe, the Vulcans were a force of good for humanity and Humanity was lucky to have First Contact with the Vulcans. However, later on, the Humans pulled their weight by helping the Vulcans end the war with Andorians, find their cultural heritage again, defeat the Romulans, and Form the Federation.
great video
Archer did have a chip on his shoulder against the Vulcans in the beginning, also the Human's adaptability was so fast compared to the other alien races the Vulcans met including themselves.
I'm curious how many species the Vulcans were nursing about the same time. Like how many planets did they have regular contact with, both officially and discreetly between 1900 and 2400. Judging by TOS/TNG, Starfleet seemed to visit primitive worlds fairly often, but rarely discussed worlds that were being escorted from first contact thru maturity. Were Humans an odd experiment for Vulcans or one of dozens of races that they were grooming?
"300 years is a mere blink in the life of an elf, I'm patient, I can wait." basically summs up the Vulcan methodology.
i also think our giving the vulcans to much credit, after all they are the super-power of the 22nd century so everything they do must be looked at through that lense as well.
Meanwhile the Humans are the new X-Factor who actions cannot be predicted very easily if at all.
I agree with your assessment. Heck, I'm not convinced we won't rip ourselves apart. Try getting a human to say, stop at a stop sign, or wear a mask during a pandemic..... Vulcans were right to be cautious
Enterprise was the Trek of my early teens, and yeah even then as a fan I could see the writing on the Vulcans was clumsy. This is a really good take on the portrayal, especially the unwillingness to share technology, it makes a lot of sense and fits with their curiosity and experimental attitudes.
This was good.
Imagine if Cochrine had met the Andorians or the Orions first instead of the Vulcan's. Could you imagine the shift in paradigms? The Federation would be fundamentally different.
If he would've met the Orions first, there wouldn't be a Federation. And by meeting the Andorians first, it could've been, that the Humans were faster in ship and technology development, but could've dragged into a possible war or at least into the political games of both species
Meeting the Orions would probably turn humans into a Terran Empire if they could figure out how to overcome the Orion "slave girl" control.
@@richardarriaga6271 Interesting, They might start as a vassal state in the Emerald Chain, viewing the Orion with as much or more suspicion they gave the Vulcans. Interestingly, they would still be in contact with Vulcan as well and might trust them more than the Orion's. Creating the Empire but also accepting Vulcans exclusively as intimate allies
@@hughtonne1775 That might happen if some engineer named Tucker fell for a female Vulcan during her Pon Far. A telepathic link would make a human immune to Orion influence.
@@richardarriaga6271 Mostly, But Orion influence is based on chemistry, not telepathy. There may be other ways around it once the influence has been revealed.
I always liked that the Denobulan (Dr.Phlox’s people) were kind of a cultural antithesis to the Vulcans in some aspects. They’re both long lived races, but while the Vulcans only ever mate with one partner and get around two children, the Denobulan marry in polygamous Couples and get lots of children, creating a wholly different lifestyle. Their cultures got two diametral problems from that, one is dying out from underpopulation while the other needs to expand into space out of overpopulation
In the current trek, it was a Q continuum that replaces the Vulcans of being it's parent that warn and guide them to a future that are like them.
Oh man if Vulcan didn’t help with the Kzinti wars Earth must have been pissed. If they promised to keep a volume of space around Earth safe from external threats but then refused to help when aliens were eating humans? Can definitely see how Vulcan would have a lukewarm reputation at best if that’s what they called “help.”
Vulcans saw the big picture humans were still oblivious
Another great video!!
Nailed it!
Liked & followed.
I think much of the Vulcan-Human disagreements was fundamentally a difference in risk tolerance.
Humans to Vulcans are that little brother that comes up to their face with their finger and wiggles it in front of their nose saying, “I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you…” 😂😂😂😂. My gods, if they ever did that scene…
First contact with Andorians would go really well. Issue would be with the Vulcans. Their mentality in that era and cold relations with Andoria would make them see the situation as making of vassal state close to their border. Earth could become place of conflict between two goverments just like that small moon in Enterprise.
Great vid. sir. Thank You!
For the Vulcan we are like playing a videogame on NewGame+
I really do like how Archer eventually came around to understand the Vulcans and even appreciated what they were trying to do for Earth. In contrast, T'pol came to understand humanity and grew to resent how her people treated Earth. Though, to be fair, having your factory reset button hit rapidly by 8in of attitude adjustment (thanks, Tucker) will do strange things to ones logic. 👀
You could argue the concept of humans sweeping the Vulcans into history and the creation of the UFP. Is one of major reasons for the eventual creation of Vulcan separatist movements.
I think one thing that this video overlooks when mentioning Archer, is that he did have legitimate reasons to hold a grudge against the Vulcans. Not only did they hold back Earth's development (for debatable valid reasons), they killed his father's personal scientific endeavors, and would have done the same to his if he had let them. Fighting tooth and nail for one's goals, only to have Vulcans do nothing but sabotage you every step of the way tends to breed such feelings. Even if it was for their "own good", to say there weren't any negative consequences to this Vulcan "big brother" interference would be disingenuous. Something that's given screen time in the show. Also, it should be noted that the Vulcans were actively trying to KEEP Archer and the Enterprise crew from going after the source of the Xindi attack on Earth that killed millions. They wouldn't lift a finger to help, and T'Pol had to resign her commission to help the crew. And even after Archer and the crew were successful (at great cost), the Vulcans STILL wanted to be naysayers when it came to Archer.
One particular example was when the Enterprise crew came upon a ship full of Vulcans that had lost their minds and acted more like savage animals than sentient beings. The Vulcan ambassador dared to insinuate that Archer and his people DIDN'T do everything in their power to save them, and falsely reported on events there. Archer of course blew a gasket, and while his delivery and verbal attack on the ambassador was out of line, he CORRECTLY pointed out that the Vulcans were less-than-helpful, and had Earth listened to the Vulcans, Earth would have been destroyed. An outcome that was actually explored in an alternate timeline. Vulcans can be cautious sometimes to the detriment to themselves and others. Especially when they consistently fail to consider the cultures of other races (Humans, Andorians, etc). Of course, the same can be said of human curiosity, but that is when those sides of the coin should meet in the middle. Something the two races didn't learn to do until MUCH later. Which is after everyone discovers the corruption rooted in the Vulcan High Command by Archer and his crew, teamed up with that aforementioned ambassador that always seemed to be at odds with him.
So yeah, the situation was far more complex than one might think it to be at first glance. Two cultures butting heads with few to no one trying to meet in the middle. But thankfully Archer's character development showed that it was still possible to do so. Especially when as previously stated, he worked with that Vulcan ambassador he didn't much care for. The same one that tried to label Archer as impulsive, insane, and/or a liar. And that's the beauty of classic Star Trek. The characters learning and evolving as they explore the cosmos, and as a result, exploring themselves as they do. And as the video correctly stated, NO ONE could have predicted the formation of the Federation. At least not without time travel, but that's a topic for another time. Cheers~!
Since the Romulans are a kin to the Vulcans, they share this interest and on next generations that was mentioned about the Romulans, when the Romulans came back out after a long abstence. Since the Romulans kepted the war like nature of the past, thats as far it went.
Control (the book one, not the silly Discovery one) got into Vulcan computer systems even before the founding of the Federation. Federation was inevitable. But they got nested into its expanding protective cocoon early on.
The Shiny Things comment made me laugh my ass off, thanks for that.
Also makes you think how much help the Vulcans gave Earth in rebuilding of the planet. I mean, did they help clean up the nuclear radiation that was probably around a lot of the major cities? Were they there to help rebuild the infrastructure? Also did they pacify any lingering hostile factions with their presence? This right here could be a series to explore this era in trek history.
I think a lot of the vulcan help was probably in networking. Introducing other aliens like the denobulans to earth.
I think it's a good way to explain the Vulcan's in this time frame, is to compare them to those Korean are Japanese novels and comics where someone is reborn into a book they read, or reborn into a history that they know...
Like they're watching cause they don't wanna like mess anything up, but at the same time they're constantly slapping themselves in the face because they know how things are going to end or at least they sort of have a second hand embarrassment
Of course the early 2000s were a different time. Those of us who lived through the 80s were the survivors of the Eugenics Wars. Kids today don't know what that was like!
Though most of what Archer seemed to be pissed about was the fact that the Vulcans didn't give them their (relatively) super tech. Because if there's one thing humans always do, it's distributing to anyone who asks the details of how to build (eg) a Stealth Bomber.
The Vulcans of early Star Trek were arrogant and militaristic. Only finding the words of Sarak in Enterprise changed them to pacifism. In reality, it was humans that changed Vulcans not the other way around.
Fascinating.
The Vulcans were ALWAYS dicks. People who hated ENT for the portrayal of the Vulcans conveniently forgot that.
It seems like they need regular human contact to mellow out and realize "Hey, these guys may actually be able to get stuff done without blowing up."
They weren’t dicks in TOS at all. It’s only been the last 20 years that they’ve been turned into arrogant and angry, completely out of character with things like IDIC and the original show.
@@DigitalOrigami Oh yes they were. Even Spock, who was half Vulcan, was often a dick.
@@DigitalOrigami They absolutely were concerning Pon Far in TOS.
I have to say that I enjoyed how they are portrayed. I feel the Enterprise portrayal is more realistic. People aren’t angels, intelligence doesn’t equal good behavior. Vulcan tend to behave like self-righteous big brothers that don’t know nearly as much as they believe they do. They condescend, they don’t even attempt to meet Humans halfway in terms of being congenial. The Vulcan captain who came on board for dinner in “Breaking The Ice” is a great example. I didn’t expect for him to have understood that it’s generally considered impolite to eat prior to having dinner with a group, but at least he could not sit like an angry, bored teen the whole time. Try to chat with Archer even if that’s not usual between Vulcans during meals. Archer wasn’t being a dick to him. Archer was responding to his non-verbal cues of “I don’t give a damn, want to be here, and definitely don’t wish to talk to you”.
That behavior was uncalled for and immature. They pretend to be accepting of everyone, but its a lie to they tell themselves to seem like they so damn evolved…. They got just as many issues as Humans. Humans are just honest about theirs.
The Vulcan did what they could to help the Humans. But that help meant they purposely held humantu back. Archer was not a dick. He just resented the Vulcan holding humanity back, and treating us like children (even though we were/are). The Vulcan also had there own agenda, they were not belevinant benefactors. They saw the Humans as a possible threat. And did everything they could short of conquest to keep is in line.
The whole story line of spyung on the Andorians proves the Vulcan were not simply helping. They wanted the Humans to become an allie against Andorra. But the Humans turned it around In them. Lived Enterprise. Had so much potential. Sure wished they could have gotten into the Earth Romulan war....
We are the ‘hold my beer’ species. And that’s why Vulcan’s love us.
I said what I said.
Since the Vulcans had of course had thier own horrific nuclear wars in the distant past l think at the time of First Contact they perhaps saw humans of that time as perhaps a mirror image of thier own early selves. And, regardless of the way they may have acted on the surface in the years after that, still deep down inside still had a genuine and earnest desire to see mankind through to better days. Ane perhaps to even a more logical way of life. At least l would like to believe that
I find your analysis logical.
Humans : oooooooh shiny object
Vulcans : WTF is wrong is with these humans.
Andorians: "Nothing wrong there, go see the shiny object, pink skin"
Full disclosure, I did not watch this video, I only read the title. Here's what I think is the Vulcan perspective is:
Vulcan 1: Shit, Humans got warp drive.
Vulcan 2: Well, I guess we should drop in.
Vulcan 1: *sigh* do we have to?"
This applies to both the Prime timeline and the Mirror universe.
Well said good sir!
I can see a table of Vulcans just sitting there facepalming
I don't think that Archer was a "Dick" at all. The Vulcans preference was that the humans stayed on Earth and leave space to the adults. They didn't understand humans. Humans push the envelope. That's how we advance. We take risks, fail, rebound and come out stronger. We don't advance in a logical manner. We also get upset when people get in the way of advancement. It's worse when outsiders do it. Archer was just frustrated and had lost his patience with the Vulcans.
I honestly bounced off Enterprise with the first ep or so because I felt like there was too much whining about the Vulcans. Do need to give it another go, given later seasons.
I can absolutely see the Vulcans trying to tiptoe around what they can and can't give, and I like the idea that they wanted humanity to figure stuff out for themselves rather than rely on the Vulcans for the tech.
The early Vulcan attitude toward Earth could be summed up as being containment. They'd been watching us for decades, on and off, and knew what we were like. They knew we'd had a nuclear war and probably thought we'd eventually die out, but the _Phoenix_ warp signature shocked them. Uh-oh, the dangerous bacillus has just found a vector, better intervene. And so they did. Think of George Kennan policy of containing the Soviet Union in the 1940's.
Vulcans had no doubt dealt with other "passionate" races like Andorians, etc. So I don't know why they would be so surprised at human developments (technological, expansions, colonization, exploration, general rate of, etc.)
I think the Andorians were more passionate than the Vulcans and the Klingons more aggressive, ect.. but Humans had this magical mix of passion, aggression, logic, ingenuity that enabled them to progress faster than expected. Too much of any one trait to the exclusion of others would slow progress.