This is certainly helpful. It would be good to see examples of what it looks like when the shoulder causes fabric to pull vs when the bust causes fabric to pull. Thanks!
Yesss finally an accurate video. It's how Kibbe styles the clothes on a body, how they need to be cut to suit a frame, then on top of that he layered some archetypes which tend to go with those accommodations. But it's guidelines more than actual rules. 😉
I've read somewhere that Kibbe had said it is about the highest point of your shoulder being the point where the shoulder seam is supposed to sit. On some people the highest point is further in (e.g. any Romantic ID) and on another person it's further out than the bust or chest line (e.g. any Natural ID). On Classic IDs I feel like it's often just right above the chest line. I'm calling it chest line, because it's easier for me to understand if I do look at the chest and bust seperately. On me the bust line doesn't curve out, it's straight and my shoulders are aligned with the chest line forming a straight vertical line. This also makes it easier to see if one has width and curve (SN) or small, rounded/tapered shoulders and curve (R or TR). I think a lot of people struggle with the reference of the dressmaking perspective (to me it was enlightening because I do have some experience with dressmaking, but if one doesn't they really might struggle with that quote) whereas "the highest point of the shoulder" is easier to imagine, to visualize, to see for the majority of people. And I did cross-check if it makes sense and if that comment I had read would be valuable and I find it VERY helpful. I also cross-checked on myself if it works for me and it does. The highest point of my shoulders is exactly where my shoulder seams sit and even on the cheapest, most stretchy fabric (in longsleeves that look like you would never be able to fit in, but they are so stretchy that they kinda mold to your body) the shoulder seam will sit exactly there on me. I was told I do have width yet was suspecting I might not have it but wasn't sure if I just was unable to see it myself. Now thanks to this video and that said comment I had read, I am 100% sure I don't have width. And that explains why I - despite liking unconstructed and loose lines in general - always feel and felt a bit lost in FN lines (sometimes even felt drowned by them) and thought it was me being just too biased to see the truth. To be honest, I also was told I had curve, but realized way later that that person typing me didn't understand Kibbe curve themselves and was actually looking at my hips and not my upper body at all. The so called softness I had (or she saw in me) was due to carrying a slight bit of extra weight and baby fat back then (which I both lost in my early 30's). Nowadays even when I gain a bit of weight you can still see my bone structure very well which wasn't the case back then. I personally tried to see all the traits of a Natural ID within me but couldn't. I tried to convince myself that I am just not good at seeing these traits and that my gut feelings were all wrong. But if none of the recommendations work for you, the chosen ID will most likely be the wrong one for you. There is no need to try to squeeze yourself in the wrong ID at all. And that honestly might actually be a factor that does make people think this system doesn't even work. This and the factor that many people over-complicate explaining Kibbe terms. And I feel like most of these people don't understand the terms themselves. Another mistake I made was ruling out a complete ID branch (Classic) in the very beginning of my Kibbe journey because of the fact I understood the terms wrong. And that was actually the correct branch for me. I had also ruled it out because I heard it was rare to be one of these IDs. But when I went back in and read the descriptions and the recommendations for the ID(s) again, I felt so stupid to rule it out without further investigation. I did land on DC and every single recommendation works for me. And let me tell you: The typical selfie isn't the best reference to see either your ID nor your essences because lense distortion is really messing with your proportions. It's also easier to see your proportions and individual blend if you don't wear make up and don't wear much on your body. Especially if anything you would wear can shape your body (push up bras, padded bras, certain types of leggings and sports tops that "suck you in" or shape your waist and hip area etc.). I'm just pointing that out because I have seen people wearing such things when posting on reddit, asking what people think they might be. Don't do that, it just overcomplicates things too much.
Something I would love to learn more about is how building muscle affects things like width. There's not a lot of solid guidance about it. I know it is commonly said that your type doesnt change with weight nor muscle, but to me it seems to have at least some impact. I am a FG with a fairly narrow frame, but since I've built up some upper body muscle, I find that gamine lines can start to look too stiff, especially around the shoulders and chest/upper back. It starts to pull in strange ways. I've had to shift to a middle ground between gamine and natural lines
These dress comparisons don’t make sense because they have totally different cuts in the neckline and bodice. You would have to compare the types in the same dress to see the difference more accurately.
This was so helpful thank you! Looking at it from a dressmaking perspective make so much more sense now! I sew clothes so I can totally understand now. To put it another way, take your standard pattern for a fitted dress block and look at the adjustments that you have to make to get it to fit you perfectly. People who tend to need the widen the shoulder area on all their patterns probably have "width", people who tend to need a full bust adjustment have curve, people who need to lengthen the bodice have vertical line, people who always need to shorten everything are petite, and those people who basically need almost no adjustments to the standard pattern would most likely be classics...? Something like that?
Sounds about right, except for shortening because the length could be in the leg and it is more about length for your proportion. Since patterns are often simply scaled up, a short person with a larger size will need to shorten things but might still be long for their relative size.
I'm wondering if you know where the shoulder seam should fall. Should it fall on your shoulder bone? Or is it a little inward? I have never adjusted my pattern to accommodate my shoulders, but some of my clothes have a shoulder seam that is more inward than my shoulder bone. I wonder if it's supposed to be like this or if I do have width. I do remember learning that men and women place the shoulder seam in different spots. I would love to hear your perspective as I only have limited sewing experience
For the longest time, I thought of myself as SN but with this outline and explanation, I can see double curve in me! I'll still experiment with both SN and R clothes cause what's important to me is to feel confident with how the fabric falls on my body. (I'm into sewing). Thank you for this!
Oh my gosh, ive never ever heard the explanation of your shoulder seams being the widest part of the body. That makes so much sense. Width was the one accomodation that I still didnt "get" completely because so many people think the arms count as part of your shoulders for some reason?? By that logic every human being in the world would have width 😂 Thank you I can feel confident i am soft classic and not a soft natural now
This is a much more comprehensible explanation for width than what I've previously seen. I'm FN, and it worked for me when I tried it out. Good luck with your new & improved accounts!
This is a great, intelligent system that changes, and potentially saves, lives. Personally, I found the former video on width more helpful, where the size of the back and rib cage was shown as width. As this doesn't concern most people, I can see that there is some confusion with the taller types, and there may definitely be room for improvement within the system. There seems to be a huge gap between the straight Dramatic, and the full on va-va-voom of the Soft Dramatic. For me this is not just a curiosity, but quite a personal matter with which I've spend some time and energy. I am tall, with super narrow, long and sharp bone structure, but the distance between my shoulders is the widest part of my body. Yet I don't have a wide back and ribcage, but am over all rather delicate, like you may picture a ballet dancer, a career I was in fact considering at some point before a nasty injury. Regression aside. At first I thought I was a Flamboyant Natural, merely due to my shoulders, but further investigation showed that I do absolutely not pull off recommendations for the Natural types, but look my best in Dramatic lines. Natural lines look sloppy on me, and I look like a lost little baby bird when trying on the Natural line recommendations. I've noticed the same with Keira Knightly, a verified Dramatic, if I remember correctly. Natural hair and make up recommendations look horrid on me, and extremely aging, just like Kibbe's Metamorphosis predicts. To make the confusion complete, I have some female, upper body curve as well, but the SD recommendations are far too much for my body type, and I have through months of meticulous trial and error landed on Dramatic, even with shoulder "width" and some mammary action upstairs. I know many people will come screaming nooooo it's not possible Dramatics are straight and that's it, but it's not a purely mathematical system, but more of a sliding scale. I hope this can help somebody who doesn't fit 100% into any type description. If in doubt, there is always a way out by narrowing down the options to a couple of types and trying on the recommendations, to see what looks the best. Good luck, everybody!
Holistic is the needed description! This helps to not fall into a trap of looking at it in black or white with the definition. People should relax a bit more about the "rules " that define the bodytype
Can you go into how to know where to place shoulder seams? That comparison with Marylin, they’re both in tank tops which shows their body, but as a non dress maker, I have no idea where to place shoulder seams. Or how to tell.
If you feel the top of your shoulder there's a round bone sitting there; the joint socket between your shoulder and arm. The seems should go some cm or mm after that bone.
From my sewing class, they said lift your arm upwards and feel for a divit in the shoulder. It is still hard for me to tell if I have width or not, but I hope this helps someone
Very interesting point that it is more like a dressmaking perspective then a body type system. Would you say this is still the most USEFUL system for day to day life or do you have any other ”favourite” system…?❤
I think it is very useful if you want the shapes of your clothes to be in harmony with your body. Of course there are other ways to approach style, such as essence, coloring etc. I plan to start discussing essence soon!
Now it makes sens! I do NOT have kibbe width. I do have shoulders that aren't extremly anything cuz I am very balanced. But I often have the problem of sleefs sliping off for example
the best explanation of Kibbe width that I have seen, it seems obvious in concept but seeing it was not easy for me, I can continue discarding IDs, thank you very much
What about the fact that breast size typically decreases with weight loss or increases with gain? Kibbe says your bodytype does not change with weight gain or loss. There has to be a better way to define width without accounting for breast size.
It's the position/shape of the breast in the body that doesn't change even if you gain weight, you can have a wide breast shape not being too big or a big breast right in front of your torso, mine are like a g cup but I have a wide ribcage and shoulders so they sit in the front, not coming out of the sides of my torso. ❤
I definetly have wide shoulder, not sure if it's Kibbe width, I don't have any curve at the upper part of my torso, but I'm certainly flashy at my hip area no matter if I'm thin or overweight, I don't see vertical either 😂 at this point I'm really confused, but your videos are so good to clarify some misconceptions.❤
This is incredibly helpful. Even though I originally thought dramatic classic was the spot-on ID for me, I've recently been hovering alot between DC and soft natural. In pictures of me before weight and muscle gain, I feel like most people would proabbly classify me as an obvious classic... but after adding more flesh to my body, there is a slight hint of pseudowidth. Or maybe that is where I have trouble... I can't tell if it's really width or pseudo width. On top of that, I believe it has been said that DCs can have some width, but just not enough to throw of their balance. The flesh that JLo has in her armpit and the angle that seems to trace from her rib to her shoulder seem looks similar to mine... however, I notice that my upperbody never tugs at the fabric (even when undersized) and that it looks suitable when I have a shoulder seam in-line with the silouette of my ribcage. I don't know how those things could exist at the same time. What makes things even harder is that my essence is a blend of classic-romantic-natural, so the lines that look best on me holistically include elements from dramatic classic and soft natural (basically romantic and natural). My intuition is that I am dramatic classic with a hint of width and extra flesh from weight gain, but not enough to throw off my balance overall. I guess the goal is to simply find what works for us, but something about knowing your ID beyond doubt is so appealing.
I've found my people!! I'm exactly the same as you down to the essences lol. I've found that as long as I follow my essences and some basic rules (e.g. v necks only, tops thin enough to tuck into trousers, no skirts longer than knee length, simple/no details), trying things on to make sure they fit right is key. If the essences are right and it fits great, fab. If it fits my essences but looks off, then it's not for my Kibbe type, whatever it may be 🤷♀️
Would you please consider doing a Kibbe video addressing the periomenopausal female body? The weight gain around the middle that causes women to lose their waist proportions can make it very challenging to type them if you dont know what their body looked like earlier in life...especially if they are tall.
Thank you so much for this! I carry weight in my arms, but my shoulders themselves are quite narrow. I struggle a lot with identifying my width as a result, but this video makes it feel a lot clearer
Very interesting! Where did Kibbe talk about this recently? I'm in the FB group myself, but it feels like even there people are pretty confused about how to do the line sketch correctly.. I still have a hard time seeing how to discern width in FN vs D. Is it about the shoulder seam width in relative proportion to the hip line? Maybe an idea for a video topic - line sketches of celebs? haha xD
Unfortunately I don’t remember in what group it was because I used the keyword “width” to search in every single one of the groups lol. He described it as the line sketch needing to go “until the part where the arm goes down” instead of all the way to the tip of the shoulders. The comment was pretty old but people have been repeating the concept recently and it was brought up again.
@@stylebysophianicole Thank you. This is very helpful. 🙂 And very well explained in the video as well, about D shoulder width, where the distance between the arm pits is not wide, if I understood it correctly.
My friend identified my body structure as natural because of my “broad shoulders.” But.. If I dress according to Natural’s advice, then my shoulders really look wide and the shine in the silhouette is lost. I began to delve deeper into typology. And I recognized myself in the Dramatik Classic. But the question of “broad shoulders” haunted me for a long time. I wish I could have seen your explanation earlier! Thank you!
i thought (and honestly hoped LOL) that i was a natural of some sort as well due to "broad shoulders" but realized it's not that i have BROAD shoulders per se but that the angle is slightly sharp, however the angle from my neck to my shoulders is not as sharp. that plus having a slightly defined waist has made me realize i am a soft classic, plus same as you, as much as i love dressing in baggier clothes - it doesn't do me any favors. however, i feel i can get away with more of it than a lot of classics who say they look dreadful if they don't "clean up" or polish or whatever. idk if it's an "essence" thing (don't come for me kibbe purists omg) but i have always felt like i can get away with not fussing very much over my hair or appearance, nor do i look mature for my age but actually quite young. i feel like i have a classic body shape as far as how fabric drapes but the vibe i give off has never been one of elegance or sophistication. it might be flattering for me, but i personally don't want to dress like a ralph lauren catalogue all the time nor do i want or feel like i need to look "expensive." much talk about how easily classics get overwhelmed by literally anything - i don't really feel that's the case for me save for silhouette - if something is too long/wide/shapeless then yeah, it's not great, but all the stuff about prints or details or looking "neat and tidy" essentially i really don't think is an issue for me.
@@madiv2098 Oh, Gods! How your text resonates with me! I was surprised how accurately you described my experiences too! I have very similar feelings regarding my shoulder line, “essence” and not so obvious “categorical” classics. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me!
Me thinking I have width cuz I have a dense bone structure. Me watching your video and learning it has zero shits to do with bone density and everything to do w shoulder seams. Me figuring out that every annoying time kibbe says "shoulders" he's actually talking about the ducking seams of a garment and I've been wasting months cuz the most popular TH-camrs keep giving bad information.
This was so helpful. I am fairly muscular and have always had to have a wider shoulder than the rest of my size to accommodate it but I still wasn’t sure I had Kibbe width.
That was so helpful! I thought I was a dramatic with width in the shoulders. I am a dramatic with a narrow shoulder seam like Tilda. 🤯(hopefully that emoji means mind blown).
Very good video! I would really like a video aboit petit! Its hard for me to understand petit been the opposite of width but ot the same as double curve in the upper part! Like, marilyn doenst have petit bit she has the opposite of width in her shoulders
This was very helpful, thank you! Kibbe-width as a criteria doesn't seem to work for amab-bodies though, does it? Since they pretty much all seem to have it - at least amab-dramatics as much as amab-naturals... Now I'm confused, I thought kibbe was supposed to work on all genders.
It would be great if we could figure out our type by all the garment lines we know fit well and we look great in vs all the garment lines that make us look bad and fit poorly. Like I look horrible in peplums and dress patterns with two pieces joined at the waist. But I look great in dresses with a third piece at the waist joining the upper and lower. And I look fantastic in shirt puff sleeves which end above my bust line, but horrendous in short puff sleeves which end below. I look awful in pencil skirts and fab in a-line and circle skirts. I look great in tent dresses but ghastly in swing dresses, fab in fit and flare dresses and shifts. And spaghetti straps are great on me but tank tops are awful.
I think I not a SN, I'm 5'2" but I dont have width in the shoulders, so I think I'm in the petite types. Sometimes people tell me that I have a wide back.🤔
@@stylebysophianicoleiam DC. in terms of bone structure (anatomically), my shoulders are still the widest part of my body. my 'riding trousers' on the thighs are otherwise the widest part of my body in terms of flesh. to my knowledge are the shoulders of all people the widest part of the body (pure anatomic), maybe it's different with romantics.
Love your videos. I am wondering if width has to do with where the shoulder seam should be. Should it be at the shoulder bone? Or would that be too far out? I am seeing that my shoulder bone goes past the shoulder seam in some of my clothes, but I am not sure if that is common and shoulder seam should be a little inward or not
I love your Kibbe-type videos! very professional and clear information. I am still confused about my type, I thought I am a SN but I don't have that much flesh, I am not a FN (I am not that tall or strong athletic looking), and sometimes I believe I am a DC, but I always find I have width in my rib cage especially. Cannot wait for more videos. Does a SN have to have curves necessarily?
You dont need to be "athletic" looking to be FN. Tracee Ellis Ross is an FN but everybody thought she was a SD because she is curvy. The athletic look is more of a internet stereotype.
This is where I have a problem, because I am a very busty girl, but my arms are definitely wider than hips a little and overall they are a bit bulky and can quickly become muscular if I tried to. Because of this buying anything with structure especially coats and dresses is a nightmare for me. I always thought it was mainly the fault of the bust but could it be actually both? I noticed I have similar flesh popping out like J-Lo in the picture so I conclude I really do have to be Soft Natural although I wasn't sure at first.
You said width and petite are opposite (referring to FN/SN vs FG) but I thought width was a horizontal dimension and petite was a vertical dimension (opposite of elongated vertical in D/SD/FN), can you please clarify?
Petite means small in all directions, short and narrow. You can be short, narrow and elongated and be a FG, as long as the elongation is still within the limit of a petite frame and doesn’t turn into dominant vertical (for example a very petite person with longer legs).
@@stylebysophianicole so does the same concept hold for width, like can you be short and have some Kibbe width and be a FG as long as width is not the dominant characteristic?
@@stylebysophianicole ok I looked at my shoulder seams and it looks like I have wide shoulders but not Kibbe width, the seam goes straight up and down and maybe slightly narrower at the top (like / \). If I have a short vertical line and wide shoulders (but not Kibbe width) then could I be FG? (I’m definitely not any of the soft types)
It’s the area between where you shoulder seams would ideally be placed. There is a slightly round bone on your shoulders approximately above the armpit, usually the shoulder seams in a well tailored garment go a tiny bit further in from that bone.
This can be very hard to tell actually. My breast stick out only tiny bit without a bra on. Shoulder width and rib cage width is almost straight. Might be tiny tiny wider at the shoulders possibly. When nothing is obvious and another bra can correct whether the breasts stick out the it’s still confusing. Any advice ? I mean it’s debatable where the ideal shoulder seam should be and if the most generous seam is only tiny bit larger than cage ?
I’m a shape where my bust is wider. Does that include romantic? I didn’t realize it was a type; I just thought it would qualify me for a breast reduction, fingers crossed. i just dread wearing the recommended clothes . i want to hide
This video is amazing! So, for width the shoulder seam (dressmakers shoulder) to armpits line would be formed like this- \ / or this- | |, while shoulders without width would be formed like this- / \?
Is it possible for FN to be under 5'5? I have very broad shoulders and I perceive them as a dominant width. But I am only 5'3. Can't realize if I am FN or FG 😒 I do have long torso, and actually looking like FN who had a third of her leg cut off 😅
@@stylebysophianicole but whyyy lol, I don't see why would anyone sew a seam in a specific place other than the shoulder line 🫠 and almost every shoulder will be wider than the rest of the upper body
I talked about V shape bcz I think it is the cause of the larger seams and the clothes being pushed out from the shoulders... yeah I obviously don't get it lol, come on kibbe you should be easier 😭
@@stylebysophianicole this was certainly helpful, but won't the shoulder seams be different for each garment according to what the person wears from different brands/sizes/designs? Unless they perhaps get it tailored? I'm confused. It'd be very helpful if you would've sketched over other images as well, like the way you did over Jlo's image
This is certainly helpful. It would be good to see examples of what it looks like when the shoulder causes fabric to pull vs when the bust causes fabric to pull. Thanks!
Totally agreed! It would be so helpful
There was a pic of Scarlett Johannsen wearing a pink sweater. That shows shoulders pulling fabric
@@kimbanz9818 ooh thanks! Would that be when she wore a pink buttoned sweater in Ghost World?
Yesss finally an accurate video. It's how Kibbe styles the clothes on a body, how they need to be cut to suit a frame, then on top of that he layered some archetypes which tend to go with those accommodations. But it's guidelines more than actual rules. 😉
I've read somewhere that Kibbe had said it is about the highest point of your shoulder being the point where the shoulder seam is supposed to sit. On some people the highest point is further in (e.g. any Romantic ID) and on another person it's further out than the bust or chest line (e.g. any Natural ID). On Classic IDs I feel like it's often just right above the chest line. I'm calling it chest line, because it's easier for me to understand if I do look at the chest and bust seperately. On me the bust line doesn't curve out, it's straight and my shoulders are aligned with the chest line forming a straight vertical line. This also makes it easier to see if one has width and curve (SN) or small, rounded/tapered shoulders and curve (R or TR). I think a lot of people struggle with the reference of the dressmaking perspective (to me it was enlightening because I do have some experience with dressmaking, but if one doesn't they really might struggle with that quote) whereas "the highest point of the shoulder" is easier to imagine, to visualize, to see for the majority of people. And I did cross-check if it makes sense and if that comment I had read would be valuable and I find it VERY helpful. I also cross-checked on myself if it works for me and it does. The highest point of my shoulders is exactly where my shoulder seams sit and even on the cheapest, most stretchy fabric (in longsleeves that look like you would never be able to fit in, but they are so stretchy that they kinda mold to your body) the shoulder seam will sit exactly there on me.
I was told I do have width yet was suspecting I might not have it but wasn't sure if I just was unable to see it myself. Now thanks to this video and that said comment I had read, I am 100% sure I don't have width. And that explains why I - despite liking unconstructed and loose lines in general - always feel and felt a bit lost in FN lines (sometimes even felt drowned by them) and thought it was me being just too biased to see the truth.
To be honest, I also was told I had curve, but realized way later that that person typing me didn't understand Kibbe curve themselves and was actually looking at my hips and not my upper body at all. The so called softness I had (or she saw in me) was due to carrying a slight bit of extra weight and baby fat back then (which I both lost in my early 30's). Nowadays even when I gain a bit of weight you can still see my bone structure very well which wasn't the case back then.
I personally tried to see all the traits of a Natural ID within me but couldn't. I tried to convince myself that I am just not good at seeing these traits and that my gut feelings were all wrong. But if none of the recommendations work for you, the chosen ID will most likely be the wrong one for you. There is no need to try to squeeze yourself in the wrong ID at all. And that honestly might actually be a factor that does make people think this system doesn't even work. This and the factor that many people over-complicate explaining Kibbe terms. And I feel like most of these people don't understand the terms themselves.
Another mistake I made was ruling out a complete ID branch (Classic) in the very beginning of my Kibbe journey because of the fact I understood the terms wrong. And that was actually the correct branch for me. I had also ruled it out because I heard it was rare to be one of these IDs. But when I went back in and read the descriptions and the recommendations for the ID(s) again, I felt so stupid to rule it out without further investigation. I did land on DC and every single recommendation works for me. And let me tell you: The typical selfie isn't the best reference to see either your ID nor your essences because lense distortion is really messing with your proportions. It's also easier to see your proportions and individual blend if you don't wear make up and don't wear much on your body. Especially if anything you would wear can shape your body (push up bras, padded bras, certain types of leggings and sports tops that "suck you in" or shape your waist and hip area etc.). I'm just pointing that out because I have seen people wearing such things when posting on reddit, asking what people think they might be. Don't do that, it just overcomplicates things too much.
Thank you for this comment, it's very useful!
Very insightful, thanks!
Something I would love to learn more about is how building muscle affects things like width. There's not a lot of solid guidance about it. I know it is commonly said that your type doesnt change with weight nor muscle, but to me it seems to have at least some impact. I am a FG with a fairly narrow frame, but since I've built up some upper body muscle, I find that gamine lines can start to look too stiff, especially around the shoulders and chest/upper back. It starts to pull in strange ways. I've had to shift to a middle ground between gamine and natural lines
You decide what looks best on you in different circumstances. Play with the lines and choose. Don't put yourself in a box. Have fun with fashion.
I agree. According to Kibbe, the body type does not change with weight gain or loss. I have the same question with the increase of breast size.
These dress comparisons don’t make sense because they have totally different cuts in the neckline and bodice. You would have to compare the types in the same dress to see the difference more accurately.
This was so helpful thank you! Looking at it from a dressmaking perspective make so much more sense now! I sew clothes so I can totally understand now. To put it another way, take your standard pattern for a fitted dress block and look at the adjustments that you have to make to get it to fit you perfectly. People who tend to need the widen the shoulder area on all their patterns probably have "width", people who tend to need a full bust adjustment have curve, people who need to lengthen the bodice have vertical line, people who always need to shorten everything are petite, and those people who basically need almost no adjustments to the standard pattern would most likely be classics...? Something like that?
Sounds about right, except for shortening because the length could be in the leg and it is more about length for your proportion. Since patterns are often simply scaled up, a short person with a larger size will need to shorten things but might still be long for their relative size.
I'm wondering if you know where the shoulder seam should fall. Should it fall on your shoulder bone? Or is it a little inward? I have never adjusted my pattern to accommodate my shoulders, but some of my clothes have a shoulder seam that is more inward than my shoulder bone. I wonder if it's supposed to be like this or if I do have width. I do remember learning that men and women place the shoulder seam in different spots. I would love to hear your perspective as I only have limited sewing experience
For the longest time, I thought of myself as SN but with this outline and explanation, I can see double curve in me! I'll still experiment with both SN and R clothes cause what's important to me is to feel confident with how the fabric falls on my body. (I'm into sewing). Thank you for this!
It finally clicked to me what "relative to your body" means. Oh my gosh. Thank you for making this much so easier to understand!!
This is by far the best explanation of width that I have seen. The shoulder seam line. Of course! That makes perfect sense.
Oh my gosh, ive never ever heard the explanation of your shoulder seams being the widest part of the body. That makes so much sense. Width was the one accomodation that I still didnt "get" completely because so many people think the arms count as part of your shoulders for some reason?? By that logic every human being in the world would have width 😂 Thank you I can feel confident i am soft classic and not a soft natural now
Where do the arms start? It's confusing
This is a much more comprehensible explanation for width than what I've previously seen. I'm FN, and it worked for me when I tried it out. Good luck with your new & improved accounts!
This is a great, intelligent system that changes, and potentially saves, lives.
Personally, I found the former video on width more helpful, where the size of the back and rib cage was shown as width.
As this doesn't concern most people, I can see that there is some confusion with the taller types, and there may definitely be room for improvement within the system.
There seems to be a huge gap between the straight Dramatic, and the full on va-va-voom of the Soft Dramatic.
For me this is not just a curiosity, but quite a personal matter with which I've spend some time and energy.
I am tall, with super narrow, long and sharp bone structure, but the distance between my shoulders is the widest part of my body. Yet I don't have a wide back and ribcage, but am over all rather delicate, like you may picture a ballet dancer, a career I was in fact considering at some point before a nasty injury.
Regression aside.
At first I thought I was a Flamboyant Natural, merely due to my shoulders, but further investigation showed that I do absolutely not pull off recommendations for the Natural types, but look my best in Dramatic lines. Natural lines look sloppy on me, and I look like a lost little baby bird when trying on the Natural line recommendations. I've noticed the same with Keira Knightly, a verified Dramatic, if I remember correctly.
Natural hair and make up recommendations look horrid on me, and extremely aging, just like Kibbe's Metamorphosis predicts. To make the confusion complete, I have some female, upper body curve as well, but the SD recommendations are far too much for my body type, and I have through months of meticulous trial and error landed on Dramatic, even with shoulder "width" and some mammary action upstairs.
I know many people will come screaming nooooo it's not possible Dramatics are straight and that's it, but it's not a purely mathematical system, but more of a sliding scale.
I hope this can help somebody who doesn't fit 100% into any type description.
If in doubt, there is always a way out by narrowing down the options to a couple of types and trying on the recommendations, to see what looks the best.
Good luck, everybody!
I suspect some might fall in between as it is a spectrum, in reality, or that maybe we aren’t thinking about it exactly as Kibbe does, as in this case
Holistic is the needed description! This helps to not fall into a trap of looking at it in black or white with the definition. People should relax a bit more about the "rules " that define the bodytype
Can you go into how to know where to place shoulder seams? That comparison with Marylin, they’re both in tank tops which shows their body, but as a non dress maker, I have no idea where to place shoulder seams. Or how to tell.
If you feel the top of your shoulder there's a round bone sitting there; the joint socket between your shoulder and arm. The seems should go some cm or mm after that bone.
From my sewing class, they said lift your arm upwards and feel for a divit in the shoulder. It is still hard for me to tell if I have width or not, but I hope this helps someone
Very interesting point that it is more like a dressmaking perspective then a body type system. Would you say this is still the most USEFUL system for day to day life or do you have any other ”favourite” system…?❤
I think it is very useful if you want the shapes of your clothes to be in harmony with your body. Of course there are other ways to approach style, such as essence, coloring etc. I plan to start discussing essence soon!
Now it makes sens! I do NOT have kibbe width. I do have shoulders that aren't extremly anything cuz I am very balanced. But I often have the problem of sleefs sliping off for example
This is so helpful, thank you so much! This made me realise I don't have width. One step closer to finding my type thank to you!!
This is the best video I have seen to date on what width means. Thank you so much!
This is the most helpful explanation of this I’ve heard about width
My god you are the Kibbe whisperer! So on point.
the best explanation of Kibbe width that I have seen, it seems obvious in concept but seeing it was not easy for me, I can continue discarding IDs, thank you very much
This confused more THAN EVER, and where did kibbe say exactly these words seam width?
What about the fact that breast size typically decreases with weight loss or increases with gain? Kibbe says your bodytype does not change with weight gain or loss. There has to be a better way to define width without accounting for breast size.
Have you found any information on this?
It's the position/shape of the breast in the body that doesn't change even if you gain weight, you can have a wide breast shape not being too big or a big breast right in front of your torso, mine are like a g cup but I have a wide ribcage and shoulders so they sit in the front, not coming out of the sides of my torso. ❤
This is so helpful!! thank you for the explanation and visuals!
I definetly have wide shoulder, not sure if it's Kibbe width, I don't have any curve at the upper part of my torso, but I'm certainly flashy at my hip area no matter if I'm thin or overweight, I don't see vertical either 😂 at this point I'm really confused, but your videos are so good to clarify some misconceptions.❤
Maybe you're a Soft Natural? Not sure if they need a strong vertical as they are N, or the yin aspect can "shorten" them
SN has curve, so probably wouldn't be curve.
This is incredibly helpful. Even though I originally thought dramatic classic was the spot-on ID for me, I've recently been hovering alot between DC and soft natural. In pictures of me before weight and muscle gain, I feel like most people would proabbly classify me as an obvious classic... but after adding more flesh to my body, there is a slight hint of pseudowidth. Or maybe that is where I have trouble... I can't tell if it's really width or pseudo width. On top of that, I believe it has been said that DCs can have some width, but just not enough to throw of their balance. The flesh that JLo has in her armpit and the angle that seems to trace from her rib to her shoulder seem looks similar to mine... however, I notice that my upperbody never tugs at the fabric (even when undersized) and that it looks suitable when I have a shoulder seam in-line with the silouette of my ribcage. I don't know how those things could exist at the same time. What makes things even harder is that my essence is a blend of classic-romantic-natural, so the lines that look best on me holistically include elements from dramatic classic and soft natural (basically romantic and natural). My intuition is that I am dramatic classic with a hint of width and extra flesh from weight gain, but not enough to throw off my balance overall. I guess the goal is to simply find what works for us, but something about knowing your ID beyond doubt is so appealing.
Same here, I seemingly have gained width over time with muscle and weight so I'm confused between some type of classic and soft natural.
I've found my people!! I'm exactly the same as you down to the essences lol.
I've found that as long as I follow my essences and some basic rules (e.g. v necks only, tops thin enough to tuck into trousers, no skirts longer than knee length, simple/no details), trying things on to make sure they fit right is key. If the essences are right and it fits great, fab. If it fits my essences but looks off, then it's not for my Kibbe type, whatever it may be 🤷♀️
Would you please consider doing a Kibbe video addressing the periomenopausal female body? The weight gain around the middle that causes women to lose their waist proportions can make it very challenging to type them if you dont know what their body looked like earlier in life...especially if they are tall.
This was super helpful! I've been debating if I had width or double curve with a small bust & I definitely have curve over width. Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for this! I carry weight in my arms, but my shoulders themselves are quite narrow. I struggle a lot with identifying my width as a result, but this video makes it feel a lot clearer
Please make a video on how exactly to determine if you are moderate in kibbe. As well as how to know if you are kibbe petite
Very interesting! Where did Kibbe talk about this recently? I'm in the FB group myself, but it feels like even there people are pretty confused about how to do the line sketch correctly.. I still have a hard time seeing how to discern width in FN vs D. Is it about the shoulder seam width in relative proportion to the hip line? Maybe an idea for a video topic - line sketches of celebs? haha xD
Unfortunately I don’t remember in what group it was because I used the keyword “width” to search in every single one of the groups lol. He described it as the line sketch needing to go “until the part where the arm goes down” instead of all the way to the tip of the shoulders. The comment was pretty old but people have been repeating the concept recently and it was brought up again.
@@stylebysophianicole Thank you. This is very helpful. 🙂 And very well explained in the video as well, about D shoulder width, where the distance between the arm pits is not wide, if I understood it correctly.
My friend identified my body structure as natural because of my “broad shoulders.” But.. If I dress according to Natural’s advice, then my shoulders really look wide and the shine in the silhouette is lost. I began to delve deeper into typology. And I recognized myself in the Dramatik Classic. But the question of “broad shoulders” haunted me for a long time. I wish I could have seen your explanation earlier! Thank you!
i thought (and honestly hoped LOL) that i was a natural of some sort as well due to "broad shoulders" but realized it's not that i have BROAD shoulders per se but that the angle is slightly sharp, however the angle from my neck to my shoulders is not as sharp. that plus having a slightly defined waist has made me realize i am a soft classic, plus same as you, as much as i love dressing in baggier clothes - it doesn't do me any favors. however, i feel i can get away with more of it than a lot of classics who say they look dreadful if they don't "clean up" or polish or whatever. idk if it's an "essence" thing (don't come for me kibbe purists omg) but i have always felt like i can get away with not fussing very much over my hair or appearance, nor do i look mature for my age but actually quite young. i feel like i have a classic body shape as far as how fabric drapes but the vibe i give off has never been one of elegance or sophistication. it might be flattering for me, but i personally don't want to dress like a ralph lauren catalogue all the time nor do i want or feel like i need to look "expensive." much talk about how easily classics get overwhelmed by literally anything - i don't really feel that's the case for me save for silhouette - if something is too long/wide/shapeless then yeah, it's not great, but all the stuff about prints or details or looking "neat and tidy" essentially i really don't think is an issue for me.
@@madiv2098 Oh, Gods! How your text resonates with me! I was surprised how accurately you described my experiences too! I have very similar feelings regarding my shoulder line, “essence” and not so obvious “categorical” classics. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me!
Tysm! This was actually super helpful!
Me thinking I have width cuz I have a dense bone structure. Me watching your video and learning it has zero shits to do with bone density and everything to do w shoulder seams. Me figuring out that every annoying time kibbe says "shoulders" he's actually talking about the ducking seams of a garment and I've been wasting months cuz the most popular TH-camrs keep giving bad information.
This is helpful but even though my mom has narrow shoulders, Soft Natural is the ONLY type that makes sense for her… so complicated
This was so helpful. I am fairly muscular and have always had to have a wider shoulder than the rest of my size to accommodate it but I still wasn’t sure I had Kibbe width.
This is very helpful! Thank you!
Thank you for adding drawings! 🙂
I honestly much refer the way you explained it in the old video. Is there any chance that you can re-post it?
Excellent video! Thank you for this update!!
That was so helpful! I thought I was a dramatic with width in the shoulders. I am a dramatic with a narrow shoulder seam like Tilda. 🤯(hopefully that emoji means mind blown).
This video helped me settle on me being a FN over SD (I thought I was an SD with Wide shoulders)
Very good video! I would really like a video aboit petit! Its hard for me to understand petit been the opposite of width but ot the same as double curve in the upper part! Like, marilyn doenst have petit bit she has the opposite of width in her shoulders
This was very helpful, thank you! Kibbe-width as a criteria doesn't seem to work for amab-bodies though, does it? Since they pretty much all seem to have it - at least amab-dramatics as much as amab-naturals... Now I'm confused, I thought kibbe was supposed to work on all genders.
It would be great if we could figure out our type by all the garment lines we know fit well and we look great in vs all the garment lines that make us look bad and fit poorly. Like I look horrible in peplums and dress patterns with two pieces joined at the waist. But I look great in dresses with a third piece at the waist joining the upper and lower. And I look fantastic in shirt puff sleeves which end above my bust line, but horrendous in short puff sleeves which end below. I look awful in pencil skirts and fab in a-line and circle skirts. I look great in tent dresses but ghastly in swing dresses, fab in fit and flare dresses and shifts. And spaghetti straps are great on me but tank tops are awful.
it was super helpful, thank you very much!
I think I not a SN, I'm 5'2" but I dont have width in the shoulders, so I think I'm in the petite types. Sometimes people tell me that I have a wide back.🤔
I love your videos!!❤
Thank you! So helpful. ❤
Very helpful. Tank you.
Scarlet's bust was literally pushing out the fabric 😢 so confused
Scarlet is a soft natural, she has both width and curve. Since the shoulders extend the furthest, she is in the natural family.
@Style Chat thank u, but what about halle berry she is SG but soooo wide.
SN is literally width plus curves- so you are perceiving both accomodations.
@@stylebysophianicoleiam DC. in terms of bone structure (anatomically), my shoulders are still the widest part of my body. my 'riding trousers' on the thighs are otherwise the widest part of my body in terms of flesh.
to my knowledge are the shoulders of all people the widest part of the body (pure anatomic), maybe it's different with romantics.
Love your videos. I am wondering if width has to do with where the shoulder seam should be. Should it be at the shoulder bone? Or would that be too far out? I am seeing that my shoulder bone goes past the shoulder seam in some of my clothes, but I am not sure if that is common and shoulder seam should be a little inward or not
I love your Kibbe-type videos! very professional and clear information. I am still confused about my type, I thought I am a SN but I don't have that much flesh, I am not a FN (I am not that tall or strong athletic looking), and sometimes I believe I am a DC, but I always find I have width in my rib cage especially. Cannot wait for more videos. Does a SN have to have curves necessarily?
You dont need to be "athletic" looking to be FN. Tracee Ellis Ross is an FN but everybody thought she was a SD because she is curvy. The athletic look is more of a internet stereotype.
You might be like me- a pure natural. I know kibbe took this out of the system, but i really am pure natural.
From what i know you need 'width + kibbe curve' to be SN...
Very helpful, thank you!
Thank you thank you thank you !!!!
This is where I have a problem, because I am a very busty girl, but my arms are definitely wider than hips a little and overall they are a bit bulky and can quickly become muscular if I tried to. Because of this buying anything with structure especially coats and dresses is a nightmare for me. I always thought it was mainly the fault of the bust but could it be actually both? I noticed I have similar flesh popping out like J-Lo in the picture so I conclude I really do have to be Soft Natural although I wasn't sure at first.
You said width and petite are opposite (referring to FN/SN vs FG) but I thought width was a horizontal dimension and petite was a vertical dimension (opposite of elongated vertical in D/SD/FN), can you please clarify?
Petite means small in all directions, short and narrow. You can be short, narrow and elongated and be a FG, as long as the elongation is still within the limit of a petite frame and doesn’t turn into dominant vertical (for example a very petite person with longer legs).
@@stylebysophianicole so does the same concept hold for width, like can you be short and have some Kibbe width and be a FG as long as width is not the dominant characteristic?
@@DD-py5hw No, because that instantly cancels being narrow so you aren’t “Kibbe petite” anymore!
@@stylebysophianicole ok I looked at my shoulder seams and it looks like I have wide shoulders but not Kibbe width, the seam goes straight up and down and maybe slightly narrower at the top (like / \). If I have a short vertical line and wide shoulders (but not Kibbe width) then could I be FG? (I’m definitely not any of the soft types)
can you explain short and long lines next.
I feel like I have width but then I see how my hips are farther out.
Hips don’t matter for width, it’s only found in the upper body!
Can you please define the beginning and end of a shoulder line?
It’s the area between where you shoulder seams would ideally be placed. There is a slightly round bone on your shoulders approximately above the armpit, usually the shoulder seams in a well tailored garment go a tiny bit further in from that bone.
How to differentiate fabric being pushed by shoulders/width vs fabric being pushed by extra weight is rhe upper arms? (For long sleeves of course)
What would Scarlett Johanssen be considered? I definitely see how Marilyn Monroe is curve dominant.
Scarlett is a soft natural!
@@stylebysophianicole Does she have kibbe width or a dominant frame?
That’s great!!
So if it is about the upper body you can still also have wide hips and be a soft natural?
This can be very hard to tell actually.
My breast stick out only tiny bit without a bra on. Shoulder width and rib cage width is almost straight. Might be tiny tiny wider at the shoulders possibly. When nothing is obvious and another bra can correct whether the breasts stick out the it’s still confusing. Any advice ? I mean it’s debatable where the ideal shoulder seam should be and if the most generous seam is only tiny bit larger than cage ?
I’m a shape where my bust is wider. Does that include romantic? I didn’t realize it was a type; I just thought it would qualify me for a breast reduction, fingers crossed. i just dread wearing the recommended clothes . i want to hide
This video is amazing! So, for width the shoulder seam (dressmakers shoulder) to armpits line would be formed like this- \ / or this- | |, while shoulders without width would be formed like this- / \?
If they align in a straight line it’s not showing width anymore, and if there is no curve below it’s just vertical!
@@stylebysophianicole Thank you so much for this, it has helped me fully rule out width as a possible accommodation!
What if the shoulder seams and the bust are almost exactly the same?
That would be a straight line, so it’s vertical!
Great stuff! Are you greek?
Is it possible for FN to be under 5'5?
I have very broad shoulders and I perceive them as a dominant width. But I am only 5'3.
Can't realize if I am FN or FG 😒
I do have long torso, and actually looking like FN who had a third of her leg cut off 😅
FG
I still have no idea what that means, bcz literally every body will be a "V shape" in some way, can someone clarify to me what width is?
The video isn’t showing a V shape though 😭 Look at the Marilyn and JLo comparison, for JLo the seams of a garment would need to be placed further out.
@@stylebysophianicole but whyyy lol, I don't see why would anyone sew a seam in a specific place other than the shoulder line 🫠 and almost every shoulder will be wider than the rest of the upper body
I talked about V shape bcz I think it is the cause of the larger seams and the clothes being pushed out from the shoulders... yeah I obviously don't get it lol, come on kibbe you should be easier 😭
@@stylebysophianicole this was certainly helpful, but won't the shoulder seams be different for each garment according to what the person wears from different brands/sizes/designs? Unless they perhaps get it tailored? I'm confused. It'd be very helpful if you would've sketched over other images as well, like the way you did over Jlo's image
Peoples body and face look vastly different depending on how fat they are
Yeah like, when I gain weight my boobs are wider than my shoulders but at my current weight they're the same width. Do I change type when I gain?
You talking to fast 😅