I research vintage newspapers for my Patreon page. The white newspapers very rarely covered the games. The Black papers of the era did not print box scores, at least the papers I read. They did print stories of the games and as you may know, game stories do not feature play by play, but highlights. So let’s say Gibson went 0 for 4 in a game. That might not be mentioned. Conversely, if Gibson went 4 for 4 with two home runs, that would be mentioned in the highlights. Like a lot of Jim Crow in that era the quality of the Negro Leagues was separate but unequal. By saying that, I am not talking about the talent of the players. I am talking about the record keeping, the greediness of owners which might have led to an over scheduling of exhibition games over league games. Many players, including Gibson, jumped to other leagues to make money. Gibson jumped to the Mexican League around 1939-40.
NPB should absolutely be counted now, it;s at minimum a AAAA league while much of the Negro league outside of stars would only be AA or AAA quality (mostly due to lack of coaching and development)
Barry was great but I cannot put him over anybody that did not use steroids,Steriods probably makes the biggest difference out of any sport in terms of making you better,The guy out right cheated,I cannot give him his flowers because of that reason
I don’t doubt for a moment that he was a monster at the plate… but I’m sorry, if the stats aren’t accurate and recorded… it’s not counting, this is MLB history… and people aren’t going to accept STORIES when it comes to all time records… I’m from Seattle, so I also wish Ichiros stats from Japan counted… but if I’m not going to count his recorded Japan stats… I dang sure ain’t accepting stats based on just stories… “ he never hit below .500…” yeah, that’s all you need to know that most of it was BS lol. It’s just not even possible. I doubt I’d even believe if they said, “he never hit below .380” Yeah I’m sorry… he did NOT go 2-4 every game of his career.
100% he hit below 500 multiple seasons throughout his career, back then there was ZERO media accountability bc you could say whatever the hell you wanted and it would NEVER be fact checked, so if the newspapers said he batted 800, that’s the only source you had to go off most of the time. Crazy how far the world has advanced in these last 90 years
This is the point I try bring up, nothing matters unfortunately if record keeping isn't accurate. Recognize the greatness of the player for sure but claiming he's the best just isn't right to say. It' unfortunate but stripping players of their record like this is not right. I would be making this same argument if it was a black players record being stripped too.
@@koodigocrxzy465 you're an idiot missing the point, due to poor record keeping it's not fair to say he's the greatest. And the unfortunate thing is we will never 100% know what his true stats, it's OK to recognize his but to shoehorn it in and claim he's better than a player who has had over 11,000 CONFIRMED at-bats is not right. I recognize josh gibsons greatness but to go as far as to call him the greatest or to give him all these records is not right.
This is why most of the time when I talk about baseball achievements I go from post integration onward. Along with segregation, I just don’t trust statistics based off of a significant lack of evidence. Not to mention the skill level of players at that time. I’m not surprised that Babe Ruth hit 600 home runs. I’m surprised that he was one of the only ones to do it.
Russell A. Carleton did a great article counter arguing your points, but another thing I'll add to this is MLB has stats on records for leagues where teams played a similar amount of games in a season. The Original American Association League played roughly 80 games the first few years of its existence in the 1880s when other leagues were playing well over 100 and those stats are still tracked. The overall point though is, we've constantly had difficulty comparing stats that are even accurately recorded because of the different eras of baseball, and adding the Negro leagues is long overdue and doesn't take away from the great players who may no longer lead in certain records. This won't magically make those players disappear. It's also confusing how you talk about plate appearances yet highlight their at bats, which is a completely different stat. You're also wrong about average Negro league games being less than 60 in a single season. In the early years they averaged 50-70, but after 1940 they consistently played well over 70 games, making their overall average well above the "usually less than 60" that you claim. Minor nitpick, but it matters when discussing this topic to be as accurate as possible about the stats you're going to mention. This is not only wrong but it looks bad because you insinuate the number is far less than it actually was. You also lead talking about the volume of his appearances by saying "first of all" which makes it sounds like you have more arguments than the number of games played, which is all you argued. Again, nitpick, but just confusing to the lead a section with first but have that be your only argument. Finally, putting the "this is not a racist take" is just in bad taste, particularly following that up with "I like Barry Bonds" and then essentially saying "I'm comparing him to another black man so I can't be racist". If you have compelling arguments no one is going to say it is, and ending with that to defend yourself just looks bad. Oh and what a shock... no one in your comments is saying you're racist. This is just irrelevant to the conversation and shouldn't be in the video at all.
Oh the Japanese League....., then the Korean League, Mexican League, Puerto Rico League, DR League, Venezuelan League, Cuban League. Quite a few Negro League players played in some of those Latin American leagues such as Cool papa Bell, Willie Wells and Ray Dandridge. So there numbers would have to be altered as well. I have Bonds being the greatest, due to the fact that he faced global talent and faced specialty relief pitching with big time closers like Wagner, Wetland, Smith, Gagne, Hoffman and more, which is more challenging.
players that didnt play in the mlb arent mlb stat leaders at all. unreliable stats and incorrect/inconsistent stat recording doesnt make anyone a stat leader.
I can't wait until they add Uncle Rico and Al Bundy to the NFL HOF and football reference stats. Uncle Rico was truly a legend. Seen him a throw a ball over the mountains once.
Back in 1982 he could throw a pigskin a quarter of a mile. An injury reduced him to only 300 yards a throw vs 440 and Coach decided to bench him to start the 4th Quarter.
You can’t put ichiro Japanese states in the record books because the era he was their was no segregation so in that’s in mind he had the Chance to play with the best of best in the mlb, where Josh Gibson couldn’t, because he was in a era of segregation in America as well. There is a lot of black baseball players and other races that era that could play in the mlb but we have to blame the owners at the time for this issue
You remember when we all believed that it was a bit stupid to put an asterisk on the 61 homer record of Maris? Now it is a necessity, just another stupid MLB idea.
It wasn't the same game, really. Some pitchers in the Negro Leagues were at best AA players, others were HOF-ers. They should make a separate portion of the HOF or stats that still apply in MLB, but don't add up to the all time stats in MLB. Still deserve representation, just not in MLB, because they are different leagues. It would be like if the NHL let other professionals hockey league stats apply in theirs, or if the NFL allowed IFL stats to apply. Just not fair, that's all I'm saying. They still deserve credit, but not in the MLB because it was a different league.
I agree, but in MLBs, defense, when babe Ruth played they didn’t even wear batting helmets, so the game was also a very different game back then too even in MLB though, I’ve been saying a Seperate record book would be a perfect compromise though!
You could say same about mlb though a lot of the pitchers those guys faced probably wouldn’t of been on a team if the leagues mixed.babe Ruth never had to face a Dominican pitcher or black pitcher only white guys
Oh it wasn't the same game??? But Willie Mays, Ernie Banks and Hank Aaron came from that league. Elston Howard 12 time all star and an MVP, Don Newcombe and MVP & CY Young, Roy Campanella with 3 MVPs came from that league. You had guys entering MLB after 30 years of age like Sam Jethroe, Luke Easter, George Crowe, Bob Boyd, Monte Irvin who put up great seasons when they integrated and had they been able to enter the league in their early 20's like everybody else, they probably be in the hall. Wasn't the same game???, but the Negro Leagues tapped into the Latin talent before MLB with the Cuban players who had a few HoFers. I disagree, it was the same game, and that game was baseball.
180 or so At-Bats simply doesn't count compared to a 380-500 AtBat season, if those are comparable enough. This isn't a slight on Gibson, but I've seen guys bat .300 for a 680+ AB season. This is ridiculous pandering.
If you want to call it Professional stats, you'd have to include all professional leagues, like NPB. That would make Ichiro the all time leader in hits.
put any of those guys up against players of that era in the MLB. Back then in their league they were throwing 70-80 poo down the middle half the time compared to MLB pitchers in the upper 80's. Whole other level of baseball
Must not have put too much time into researching because there is only proof he ever hit .460 once. Hitting .500 is less likely than the lottery at this point.
I straight up PUT THE SOURCE ON THE SCREEN. I didn’t say it was a factual source, I didn’t say that’s the stats I’m going off, I’m just saying what ONE SOURCE SAID THAT WAS ALSO ON THE SCREEN
@@peskytalk never said he wasn't the GOAT just rather the truth over people experience. Especially when it comes to sports if you want people to believe it.
None of your takes btw are racist lol. He didn’t play enough games to qualify… it is what it is. People will just not accept the stats is what it’ll be. It’s going to get the 70* home run season treatment, though won’t be looked at as negative… it just won’t be taken seriously. MLB is only doing it, to virtue signal tbh. Let’s be honest… They’re ashamed of Ty Cobb, and Cobb was a nasty man from all I’ve read… but what he did on the field is still what he did…
Again if they’re doing this they should find a way to get Ichiro to the top of the hit leaderboard too, one of the greatest guys in baseball history jumping over one of the worst guys in pete rose!
Against inferior talent. When baseball integrated the majority of NL mvp players were former Negro league players. They were scared of getting ran off the field so they his behind racism.
First off I just subscribed but this is such as debate as people are happy Negro League are part of MLB but also people says it’s unfair as they Negro League players stats shouldn’t be part of MLB statistics. Why not add Japanese leagues stats or Mexican leagues.
Baseball is trying a right a wrong of a past generation by opening up their record books/ hall of fame etc and including the legacy of these players which i get BUT by not being totally transparent with the stats and history (which you give examples of here) they are opening themselves and the legacies of the players up to undo criticism. What they should say is that this was an all time great player which WE kept out of our league because of a legacy of racism in the united states and as a result his stats are scattered, suppressed or otherwise undocumented.
No hate that on the guy but you can’t rewrite history of MLB with poorly documented statistics. MLB is unbelievable for stripping the title of players who forsure earned it. Just can’t wrap my head around the uncertainty of Josh Gibsons true stats.
This is just another sad attempt to make more people watch baseball. I love baseball; but this ain’t it chief, its only gonna drive more people away IMO.
What a great video, you have a new subscriber. Now while I feel like the Negro League stats should be acknowledged, I just can’t get behind having them be official stats due to the stat keeping of the Negro Leagues. These great players from the Negro Leagues do need to be acknowledged and given their flowers, their single season & career records shouldn’t overtake players who actually played in the MLB due to the fact that their seasons being like a third of what the MLB plays. So if we’re including stats from the negro leagues for the MLB record books, let’s include Ichiro’s stats from the Japan pro leagues as well. I know this isn’t a 1-to-1 comparison but the NBA doesn’t include ABA stats in the NBA record books, eventhough the 2 leagues merged together. Oh and to answer your question Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player, IMO.
Yall getting mad but black people weren’t allowed bc yall great/ grandparents was racist and judging by these comments the apple don’t fall to far from the tree
Think it wouldn’t need to be another “ league” if mf’s wasn’t hating and most of the black players that came when they finally let them in was great from the start so what does that say about the mlb back then
You lost me when you said the cheater Bonds was the best ever. I'm very happy he's not in the HOF. Then you said Rose is a terrible person and yet Bonds isn't? 🤔 Your take was an ignorant one.
Pete rose is a weird person off the field. And has allegedly done illegal stuff off the field. Not only that but he also gambled on his own team, and he’s just a very not good person at all. All bonds did was try to get an advantage when it was 100% MLBs fault for not testing their players. PLUS everyone in that era was roided up.
@@peskytalk Your statements are not true. They know exactly who was on drugs. It's in the Mitchell report. They need to take away half of Bonds awards and stats because it was all fake
Absolutely no hate whatsoever. You can NOT compare players of today to even 20 years ago. The game changes so abruptly and so quickly. It's the same argument that if you could drop Albert Pujols into Babe Ruth's era he'd hit .600 while if you put Babe into this era he'd struggle to hit .150. The eras were so different and so were MLB games to Negro League games. It's just not comparable. I'm sure Josh Gibson was a great player and all but the records themselves like you stated are controversial. Unless we can invent a metric or device that allows us to analyze the old games we will truly never know who the greatest baseball player of all time is.
@@Phantom_madman I mean they mean something historically but batting over 300 today is like batting 400 in their game. Baseball has just changed so much it’s not really the same game anymore.
Cecil Fielder hit 58 HR's on my Ken Griffey Jr Presents Major League Baseball game for Detroit (Mickey Tettleton hit 51) as the Tigers went 124-38 and swept the (Phillies?) in the World Series that one time I finished a whole season. Baseball Reference needs to look into adding these amazing stats. If memory serves Eric Davis batted .442 or so.
Yes. Add them to the record. Along with all the other leagues. I dont understand why theres “good ol’ boy” bullshit. Bonds is even brought up, the greatest player* during the roid era. Babe Ruth was hitting 70mph meatballs over the fence yet theres entire movies about how legendary he was. Theres an entire episode of key and peele about how the modern mlb is nothing but Dominican republicans anyway. How are we going to get to see who the true GOAT is? If the Washington Senators can be considered a baseball team, then what are we doing?
Yeah but unfortunately one should note that MLB isn't always consistent on the precedence being set. I mean they counted the stats from the Federal League in the brief period it had existed, granted the players were stars from MLB for its time but still it's a bit questionable to say the least.
yea of course, he should've just played in the MLB stupid of him... No dude black people weren't allowed because of racism. Negro leagues are retrospectively now granted MLB status because of the obvious skill level. MLB has given other leagues MLB status before in 1969. here is the source. which means the negro leagues ARE MLB Previous major leagues recognized as of the Special Baseball Records Committee (SBRC) rulings of 1969 included the National League, 1876 to the present; the American League, 1901 to the present; the American Association, 1882-91; the Union Association, 1884; the Players’ League, 1890; and the Federal League, 1914-15. On December 16, 2020, MLB corrected a longtime error in the game’s history by adding the Negro Leagues to the list above, which did not result from the 1969 SBRC process.
babe ruth has zero MLB games played, same with jackie robinson, nolan ryan and anyone who played the game before 2000 when the MLB was formed. the american league, national league lasted till then, there were other leagues like federal league, the federal league stats have always counted, just now they are recognizing the black leagues.
I like this video alot. I am very happy they are including the negro leagues but do believe there should be distinctions to their stats as you have pointed out. I am also a huge advocate for including international leagues like the NPB so guys like Ichiro can their deserved flowers as well
The records would have been 100% had MLB’s Special Committee in 1969 declared the Negro Leagues MLB. The records committee declared the American Association (1882-91), Union Association (1884), Players’ League (1890) and Federal League were MLB worthy and players stats were included in the record books. They ignored the Negro Leagues, but had they considered them, more black newspapers would have been available in the homes of the living negro league players homes. Fast-forward to nearly 60 years later to the 2020's, MLB has to dig deep and search and scramble for the box scores. There were more games played. Think of the exhibitions like the "friendly" matchups that they play in soccer or world football. Its the same bs tactic that they like to use against Pele because he played for the Santos (Brazilian team) instead of playing for a European team. So his goals and points totals vary due to people acknowledging (or not) his league matchups, exhibitions and international matchups. I feel the Negro League exhibitions should count due to what was taken from these guys. Besides they played against white MLB players hundreds of times, it just wasn't in baseball's canon.
This video was great! Nothing racist about. I do believe the Japanese profession should be considered as apart the MLB because Nomo won rookie of the year in 1995 over Chipper Jones. Nomo had been a professional player years before playing MLB. That honor was unfairly given to Nomo.
@BabyDoIIx no it's not called MLB. But the sport in it, of itself, is in fact major league baseball because the sport originated here in America. Same thing with football It originated in Britain but in the US its called Soccer. Bottom line. If Japan plays a sport America created and now one of their countrymen is basically the face of our sport along with being the highest paid player in the history of our sport! The stats and service time they develop in Japan should be automatically implemented into their MLB stat history as soon as they step foot on the diamond. Therefore not taking away the chance of an actual rookie MLB player winning the rookie of the year award like Chipper Jones should have instead of Hideo Nomo
I remember people complaining about Hideo being eligible for ROY because of his experience in Japanese baseball...but then someone pointed out how Jackie Robinson (who the ROY award is named after and its first recipient) had several years of Negro League experience prior to joining the MLB in 1947.
Major League Baseball was a loose concept rather than an incorporated entity for nearly 100 years , have you ever noticed that every team is split into two leagues ? Do you realize that with this decision to include negro league statistics , there are now well over 10-12 leagues over the course of baseball history that are all included in the MLB record books ? I would tell you to educate yourself but that isn’t what this is about for you , is it ? You’re just upset and whining about “ woke “ culture … snowflake …
Not really, im pretty sure you have to play a certain number of years in NPB before you can be posted to America. Also Ichiro was one of the very first Japanese players to play in MLB and definitely would NOT have gotten that opportunity if he didn’t show off his talents in NPB.
@@peskytalk he clearly means the ey we’re banned from the league, not that they had to play a certain about of years. Stop being purposely dense, we all know what he is saying
It's pure pandering. We all know it. Statistically it's absurd and meaningless. There's no question Josh Gibson was a great player and would have been a huge star. But he would not have been hitting .400 with 60 home runs a year. Probably more like Johnny Bench/Yogi Berra numbers. With worse defense than Bench and maybe a few more home runs. He was Bill Dickey with power. Tradition and history are meaningless these days I guess.
The saddest part of this video is that it seems that Josh Gibson was completely capable of breaking these records if he was given the chance. I once heard someone say that both the pre integration MLB and Negro Leagues were inherently worse for not being integrated. Players on both sides, but especially in the case of the NL, will forever have an asterisk next to their names because they never got to face all the best players of their era in a well documented setting. That being said, I do kinda want Ichiro's stats from NPB to count for his all time hits. Partially bc the fact that the current hits leader is banned from the Hall and the sport itself is just... weird.
Completely agree. I’m very disappointed that he never got a chance because he probably would be as legendary as a guy like Ted Williams, however then someone like Jackie Robinson wouldn’t be nearly as celebrated. Gibson was 100% one of the leading factors that let Jackie run into Major League Baseball, so he’ll always have that!
Hey MLB why we don't add the batting statistics of the games in the courtyard of my house, I officially have a record of 1,980 homers and more than 5 thousand RBI and Runs scored!!
@@JGARCIA2012FULL Sure thing Julio, I'll contact the Mexican league and ask the lawnmowers and Home Depot amigos what you accomplished. We're talking baseball right? Not soccer?
According to my records J. Garcia only has 1,978 HR's. Those two he hit off me (0.02 ERA that year with 684 K's) were in an Exhibition contest to raise money for Piston Hurricane.
@@9mmtrilla My friend, don't be surprised if the MLB also admits in its records the statistics of the Mexican leagues and the Caribbean leagues-a kind of "open borders," if you want to give it a name. Soon, the Cy Young Award will change its name to El Premio de Pedro González, to be more inclusive!! Soccer? Never; I'm a fatty, and that's why I didn't make it to the MLB despite my impressive feats!!
Exhibition games should not count!!!!
I research vintage newspapers for my Patreon page. The white newspapers very rarely covered the games. The Black papers of the era did not print box scores, at least the papers I read. They did print stories of the games and as you may know, game stories do not feature play by play, but highlights. So let’s say Gibson went 0 for 4 in a game. That might not be mentioned. Conversely, if Gibson went 4 for 4 with two home runs, that would be mentioned in the highlights. Like a lot of Jim Crow in that era the quality of the Negro Leagues was separate but unequal. By saying that, I am not talking about the talent of the players. I am talking about the record keeping, the greediness of owners which might have led to an over scheduling of exhibition games over league games. Many players, including Gibson, jumped to other leagues to make money. Gibson jumped to the Mexican League around 1939-40.
No doubt about it,what you said about any of these averages.the lower plate appearances the higher,most times averages are!!!!
NPB should absolutely be counted now, it;s at minimum a AAAA league while much of the Negro league outside of stars would only be AA or AAA quality (mostly due to lack of coaching and development)
All these points are pure fantasy!!!!
I heard Josh Gibson actually hit 800 ft HRs in every at-bat. Sometimes up to 10 in a single game.
That’s it? I heard he hit one into the neighboring state!
@@peskytalk Adam Dunn actually did.
Bob feller would have strike out josh gibson on threr pitches ,bob fwller speed bullet fastball would have put a whole in josh gibson bat
Barry was great but I cannot put him over anybody that did not use steroids,Steriods probably makes the biggest difference out of any sport in terms of making you better,The guy out right cheated,I cannot give him his flowers because of that reason
1911-1947 is 36 years how was he 34 years old i am so confused
I don’t doubt for a moment that he was a monster at the plate… but I’m sorry, if the stats aren’t accurate and recorded… it’s not counting, this is MLB history… and people aren’t going to accept STORIES when it comes to all time records…
I’m from Seattle, so I also wish Ichiros stats from Japan counted… but if I’m not going to count his recorded Japan stats… I dang sure ain’t accepting stats based on just stories…
“ he never hit below .500…” yeah, that’s all you need to know that most of it was BS lol. It’s just not even possible. I doubt I’d even believe if they said, “he never hit below .380”
Yeah I’m sorry… he did NOT go 2-4 every game of his career.
100% he hit below 500 multiple seasons throughout his career, back then there was ZERO media accountability bc you could say whatever the hell you wanted and it would NEVER be fact checked, so if the newspapers said he batted 800, that’s the only source you had to go off most of the time. Crazy how far the world has advanced in these last 90 years
This is the point I try bring up, nothing matters unfortunately if record keeping isn't accurate. Recognize the greatness of the player for sure but claiming he's the best just isn't right to say. It' unfortunate but stripping players of their record like this is not right. I would be making this same argument if it was a black players record being stripped too.
@@Big_Chungus96do you hear any Black player complaining?
@@Big_Chungus96they stripped black players of any chance to get in in the first place
@@koodigocrxzy465 you're an idiot missing the point, due to poor record keeping it's not fair to say he's the greatest. And the unfortunate thing is we will never 100% know what his true stats, it's OK to recognize his but to shoehorn it in and claim he's better than a player who has had over 11,000 CONFIRMED at-bats is not right. I recognize josh gibsons greatness but to go as far as to call him the greatest or to give him all these records is not right.
This is why most of the time when I talk about baseball achievements I go from post integration onward. Along with segregation, I just don’t trust statistics based off of a significant lack of evidence. Not to mention the skill level of players at that time. I’m not surprised that Babe Ruth hit 600 home runs. I’m surprised that he was one of the only ones to do it.
One day Matt Carpenter will be etched in the books for his historic 2022 sample with the Yankees. My GOAT.
“Red Sox fan” btw 😭😭
Russell A. Carleton did a great article counter arguing your points, but another thing I'll add to this is MLB has stats on records for leagues where teams played a similar amount of games in a season. The Original American Association League played roughly 80 games the first few years of its existence in the 1880s when other leagues were playing well over 100 and those stats are still tracked. The overall point though is, we've constantly had difficulty comparing stats that are even accurately recorded because of the different eras of baseball, and adding the Negro leagues is long overdue and doesn't take away from the great players who may no longer lead in certain records. This won't magically make those players disappear.
It's also confusing how you talk about plate appearances yet highlight their at bats, which is a completely different stat. You're also wrong about average Negro league games being less than 60 in a single season. In the early years they averaged 50-70, but after 1940 they consistently played well over 70 games, making their overall average well above the "usually less than 60" that you claim. Minor nitpick, but it matters when discussing this topic to be as accurate as possible about the stats you're going to mention. This is not only wrong but it looks bad because you insinuate the number is far less than it actually was.
You also lead talking about the volume of his appearances by saying "first of all" which makes it sounds like you have more arguments than the number of games played, which is all you argued. Again, nitpick, but just confusing to the lead a section with first but have that be your only argument.
Finally, putting the "this is not a racist take" is just in bad taste, particularly following that up with "I like Barry Bonds" and then essentially saying "I'm comparing him to another black man so I can't be racist". If you have compelling arguments no one is going to say it is, and ending with that to defend yourself just looks bad. Oh and what a shock... no one in your comments is saying you're racist. This is just irrelevant to the conversation and shouldn't be in the video at all.
This is the dumbest, most obnoxious, stupid and annoying comment I’ve ever seen. Well done.
Gibson is the goat
Bob feller speeding bullet fastball would have strikr out josh gibson on three pitches & put a hole in josh gibson bat
My friend eric was there he said it was true
If you don't meet the minimum for plate appearances your season stats should not count. Period, no exceptions.
2100 at bats doesn't qualify for BA average title. Never had enough ABs in a season to qualify.
Gibson could have hit 800 homeruns but most of them must have been in exhibition or "barn storming" games.
Baseball quickly becoming like most sports the history doesn't matter and record books are meaningless.
You are saying they are taking at bats away from guys like ty cobb?
Oh the Japanese League....., then the Korean League, Mexican League, Puerto Rico League, DR League, Venezuelan League, Cuban League. Quite a few Negro League players played in some of those Latin American leagues such as Cool papa Bell, Willie Wells and Ray Dandridge. So there numbers would have to be altered as well. I have Bonds being the greatest, due to the fact that he faced global talent and faced specialty relief pitching with big time closers like Wagner, Wetland, Smith, Gagne, Hoffman and more, which is more challenging.
How the F are you MLB's all-time leader in ANY stat if you never actually played in MLB? Seriously, WTF.
Baseball is the biggest joke of all time for including exhibition games!!!!
players that didnt play in the mlb arent mlb stat leaders at all. unreliable stats and incorrect/inconsistent stat recording doesnt make anyone a stat leader.
Great channel! Subbed and belled!
Thank you my man!
This guy did not hit 80 homers in 68 games which 68 games are the only games that should count!!!!
I can't wait until they add Uncle Rico and Al Bundy to the NFL HOF and football reference stats. Uncle Rico was truly a legend. Seen him a throw a ball over the mountains once.
And he wasn't even in the foothills when he did it!
Back in 1982 he could throw a pigskin a quarter of a mile.
An injury reduced him to only 300 yards a throw vs 440 and Coach decided to bench him to start the 4th Quarter.
Some say Uncle Rico could even throw a steak with pinpoint accuracy
Al Bundy four touchdowns......in one game !
This is another DEI overcompensation.
Barry Bonds is without a doubt the GOAT
You can’t put ichiro Japanese states in the record books because the era he was their was no segregation so in that’s in mind he had the Chance to play with the best of best in the mlb, where Josh Gibson couldn’t, because he was in a era of segregation in America as well. There is a lot of black baseball players and other races that era that could play in the mlb but we have to blame the owners at the time for this issue
Best player of all time is either Willie Mays or Hank Aaron.
You remember when we all believed that it was a bit stupid to put an asterisk on the 61 homer record of Maris? Now it is a necessity, just another stupid MLB idea.
Elaborate. How is this a bad idea?
That intro earned you a sub lol
Babe ruth!!!!
Seriously, a lawsuit needs filed against the altering of history
I dont care those exhibition games should not count
It wasn't the same game, really. Some pitchers in the Negro Leagues were at best AA players, others were HOF-ers. They should make a separate portion of the HOF or stats that still apply in MLB, but don't add up to the all time stats in MLB. Still deserve representation, just not in MLB, because they are different leagues. It would be like if the NHL let other professionals hockey league stats apply in theirs, or if the NFL allowed IFL stats to apply. Just not fair, that's all I'm saying. They still deserve credit, but not in the MLB because it was a different league.
I agree, but in MLBs, defense, when babe Ruth played they didn’t even wear batting helmets, so the game was also a very different game back then too even in MLB though, I’ve been saying a Seperate record book would be a perfect compromise though!
You could say same about mlb though a lot of the pitchers those guys faced probably wouldn’t of been on a team if the leagues mixed.babe Ruth never had to face a Dominican pitcher or black pitcher only white guys
For over 50 years, the MLB has accepted stats from several leagues that existed in the 1800s before the MLB even existed. How’s this any different?
the disrespect to the black teams is unreal, they beat the major league teams so often that landis banned guys from playing them.
Oh it wasn't the same game??? But Willie Mays, Ernie Banks and Hank Aaron came from that league. Elston Howard 12 time all star and an MVP, Don Newcombe and MVP & CY Young, Roy Campanella with 3 MVPs came from that league. You had guys entering MLB after 30 years of age like Sam Jethroe, Luke Easter, George Crowe, Bob Boyd, Monte Irvin who put up great seasons when they integrated and had they been able to enter the league in their early 20's like everybody else, they probably be in the hall. Wasn't the same game???, but the Negro Leagues tapped into the Latin talent before MLB with the Cuban players who had a few HoFers. I disagree, it was the same game, and that game was baseball.
Just found your channel can you please do more content regarding this league?
180 or so At-Bats simply doesn't count compared to a 380-500 AtBat season, if those are comparable enough. This isn't a slight on Gibson, but I've seen guys bat .300 for a 680+ AB season. This is ridiculous pandering.
were making sense until. you got to the ichiro logic
i consider him the greatest catcher of all time
Johnny bench fell ovrr laugh, laugh
Change “MLB” to “professional” stats, then it’s fixed, and Pete Rose is still the all time hits leader, no matter how you slice it. Ichiro 2nd.
If you want to call it Professional stats, you'd have to include all professional leagues, like NPB. That would make Ichiro the all time leader in hits.
MLB MLB MLB MLB
put any of those guys up against players of that era in the MLB. Back then in their league they were throwing 70-80 poo down the middle half the time compared to MLB pitchers in the upper 80's. Whole other level of baseball
This is the biggest joke ever.
Must not have put too much time into researching because there is only proof he ever hit .460 once. Hitting .500 is less likely than the lottery at this point.
I straight up PUT THE SOURCE ON THE SCREEN. I didn’t say it was a factual source, I didn’t say that’s the stats I’m going off, I’m just saying what ONE SOURCE SAID THAT WAS ALSO ON THE SCREEN
@@peskytalk I get that but why include it when it's easily disproven
Bc it’s to talk about the legend of this guy, people thought this highly of the guy that they made headlines like that, it’s wild to think about
@@peskytalk never said he wasn't the GOAT just rather the truth over people experience. Especially when it comes to sports if you want people to believe it.
This is total bs!!!
Youre insane,no way is bonds better than ruth.bonds is a cheater!!!!.
None of your takes btw are racist lol. He didn’t play enough games to qualify… it is what it is.
People will just not accept the stats is what it’ll be. It’s going to get the 70* home run season treatment, though won’t be looked at as negative… it just won’t be taken seriously.
MLB is only doing it, to virtue signal tbh. Let’s be honest… They’re ashamed of Ty Cobb, and Cobb was a nasty man from all I’ve read… but what he did on the field is still what he did…
Again if they’re doing this they should find a way to get Ichiro to the top of the hit leaderboard too, one of the greatest guys in baseball history jumping over one of the worst guys in pete rose!
Against inferior talent. When baseball integrated the majority of NL mvp players were former Negro league players. They were scared of getting ran off the field so they his behind racism.
Simple,he is in no way the greatest baseball player of all time!!!!
First off I just subscribed but this is such as debate as people are happy Negro League are part of MLB but also people says it’s unfair as they Negro League players stats shouldn’t be part of MLB statistics. Why not add Japanese leagues stats or Mexican leagues.
Baseball is trying a right a wrong of a past generation by opening up their record books/ hall of fame etc and including the legacy of these players which i get BUT by not being totally transparent with the stats and history (which you give examples of here) they are opening themselves and the legacies of the players up to undo criticism. What they should say is that this was an all time great player which WE kept out of our league because of a legacy of racism in the united states and as a result his stats are scattered, suppressed or otherwise undocumented.
Good afternoon my name is LaMonte Wade and my GOAT is either Nolan Ryan or me…
I miss watching you play lamonte. You’d hit 3 homers off nolan easy
@@peskytalk yees
No hate that on the guy but you can’t rewrite history of MLB with poorly documented statistics. MLB is unbelievable for stripping the title of players who forsure earned it. Just can’t wrap my head around the uncertainty of Josh Gibsons true stats.
EVERYONE COMPLAINING HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON
common sense?
A desire for actual records instead of stories?
A love for baseball!
@@joeg5414yes. A lack of it
Has knowledge of baseball?
Babe Ruth will always be the GOAT no matter the attempt at woke BS.
This is just another sad attempt to make more people watch baseball. I love baseball; but this ain’t it chief, its only gonna drive more people away IMO.
GOLF TIGER WOODS. WE TAKE ALL YOUR GREATNESS HA HA
What a great video, you have a new subscriber.
Now while I feel like the Negro League stats should be acknowledged, I just can’t get behind having them be official stats due to the stat keeping of the Negro Leagues. These great players from the Negro Leagues do need to be acknowledged and given their flowers, their single season & career records shouldn’t overtake players who actually played in the MLB due to the fact that their seasons being like a third of what the MLB plays. So if we’re including stats from the negro leagues for the MLB record books, let’s include Ichiro’s stats from the Japan pro leagues as well.
I know this isn’t a 1-to-1 comparison but the NBA doesn’t include ABA stats in the NBA record books, eventhough the 2 leagues merged together.
Oh and to answer your question Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player, IMO.
Yall getting mad but black people weren’t allowed bc yall great/ grandparents was racist and judging by these comments the apple don’t fall to far from the tree
Think it wouldn’t need to be another “ league” if mf’s wasn’t hating and most of the black players that came when they finally let them in was great from the start so what does that say about the mlb back then
You lost me when you said the cheater Bonds was the best ever. I'm very happy he's not in the HOF. Then you said Rose is a terrible person and yet Bonds isn't? 🤔 Your take was an ignorant one.
Pete rose is a weird person off the field. And has allegedly done illegal stuff off the field. Not only that but he also gambled on his own team, and he’s just a very not good person at all. All bonds did was try to get an advantage when it was 100% MLBs fault for not testing their players. PLUS everyone in that era was roided up.
@@peskytalk Your statements are not true. They know exactly who was on drugs. It's in the Mitchell report. They need to take away half of Bonds awards and stats because it was all fake
119 views in 1 hour bro fell off
I’m homeless now
Absolutely no hate whatsoever. You can NOT compare players of today to even 20 years ago. The game changes so abruptly and so quickly. It's the same argument that if you could drop Albert Pujols into Babe Ruth's era he'd hit .600 while if you put Babe into this era he'd struggle to hit .150. The eras were so different and so were MLB games to Negro League games. It's just not comparable. I'm sure Josh Gibson was a great player and all but the records themselves like you stated are controversial. Unless we can invent a metric or device that allows us to analyze the old games we will truly never know who the greatest baseball player of all time is.
I agree, I say that all throughout the video, but you can’t discredit that gibson was a great player, definitely not my all time best player though
By that logic we should seperate stats by era anyway and babe ruth and ty cobbs stats don’t mean anything for today
@@Phantom_madman I mean they mean something historically but batting over 300 today is like batting 400 in their game. Baseball has just changed so much it’s not really the same game anymore.
nope not better than Barry Bonds
might as well include Japan, minor leagues, Mexican leagues, Taipei, South Korea, etc
Not to mention Cuban league.
Yes. Not like we dont have the technology to accommodate this.
By doing this,baseball screws up its legacy!!!!
These stats are not official!!!!
What you said since the stats cant be confirmed,HOW THE HELL CAN THEY BE INCORPORATED INTO THE MLB!!!!
Babe ruth by far!!!
These numbers are not correct,since they are not,they should not be incorporated with mlb stats!!!!
Willie mays
Idk about y’all but I think this man deserve it 💯💯
He is not!!!! 962 is not what he hit!!!! People who do not know how to add!!!
Pete Rose
Maybe we can get Fox News and Donald Trump to verify Gibson's stats and suddenly, none of this will be an issue.
Cecil Fielder hit 58 HR's on my Ken Griffey Jr Presents Major League Baseball game for Detroit (Mickey Tettleton hit 51) as the Tigers went 124-38 and swept the (Phillies?) in the World Series that one time I finished a whole season.
Baseball Reference needs to look into adding these amazing stats. If memory serves Eric Davis batted .442 or so.
I bet in those exhibition games all the great mlb players didnt even play!!!
My opinion, Ted is better than babe
Yes. Add them to the record. Along with all the other leagues. I dont understand why theres “good ol’ boy” bullshit.
Bonds is even brought up, the greatest player* during the roid era.
Babe Ruth was hitting 70mph meatballs over the fence yet theres entire movies about how legendary he was.
Theres an entire episode of key and peele about how the modern mlb is nothing but Dominican republicans anyway.
How are we going to get to see who the true GOAT is? If the Washington Senators can be considered a baseball team, then what are we doing?
Joe Jackson is who I think is the best player of all time
I don’t think he should be the leader of many stats categories with 0 mlb games played
Yeah but unfortunately one should note that MLB isn't always consistent on the precedence being set. I mean they counted the stats from the Federal League in the brief period it had existed, granted the players were stars from MLB for its time but still it's a bit questionable to say the least.
yea of course, he should've just played in the MLB stupid of him...
No dude black people weren't allowed because of racism. Negro leagues are retrospectively now granted MLB status because of the obvious skill level. MLB has given other leagues MLB status before in 1969. here is the source. which means the negro leagues ARE MLB
Previous major leagues recognized as of the Special Baseball Records Committee (SBRC) rulings of 1969 included the National League, 1876 to the present; the American League, 1901 to the present; the American Association, 1882-91; the Union Association, 1884; the Players’ League, 1890; and the Federal League, 1914-15. On December 16, 2020, MLB corrected a longtime error in the game’s history by adding the Negro Leagues to the list above, which did not result from the 1969 SBRC process.
babe ruth has zero MLB games played, same with jackie robinson, nolan ryan and anyone who played the game before 2000 when the MLB was formed. the american league, national league lasted till then, there were other leagues like federal league, the federal league stats have always counted, just now they are recognizing the black leagues.
I like this video alot. I am very happy they are including the negro leagues but do believe there should be distinctions to their stats as you have pointed out. I am also a huge advocate for including international leagues like the NPB so guys like Ichiro can their deserved flowers as well
The records would have been 100% had MLB’s Special Committee in 1969 declared the Negro Leagues MLB. The records committee declared the American Association (1882-91), Union Association (1884), Players’ League (1890) and Federal League were MLB worthy and players stats were included in the record books. They ignored the Negro Leagues, but had they considered them, more black newspapers would have been available in the homes of the living negro league players homes. Fast-forward to nearly 60 years later to the 2020's, MLB has to dig deep and search and scramble for the box scores. There were more games played. Think of the exhibitions like the "friendly" matchups that they play in soccer or world football. Its the same bs tactic that they like to use against Pele because he played for the Santos (Brazilian team) instead of playing for a European team. So his goals and points totals vary due to people acknowledging (or not) his league matchups, exhibitions and international matchups. I feel the Negro League exhibitions should count due to what was taken from these guys. Besides they played against white MLB players hundreds of times, it just wasn't in baseball's canon.
This video was great! Nothing racist about. I do believe the Japanese profession should be considered as apart the MLB because Nomo won rookie of the year in 1995 over Chipper Jones. Nomo had been a professional player years before playing MLB. That honor was unfairly given to Nomo.
Also darvish and Ichiro the separation of their NPB stats did them badly
Thank you for that!
As a huge Ichiro fan… it shouldn’t be counted toward MLB lol cuz it’s not MLB…
@BabyDoIIx no it's not called MLB. But the sport in it, of itself, is in fact major league baseball because the sport originated here in America. Same thing with football It originated in Britain but in the US its called Soccer.
Bottom line. If Japan plays a sport America created and now one of their countrymen is basically the face of our sport along with being the highest paid player in the history of our sport! The stats and service time they develop in Japan should be automatically implemented into their MLB stat history as soon as they step foot on the diamond. Therefore not taking away the chance of an actual rookie MLB player winning the rookie of the year award like Chipper Jones should have instead of Hideo Nomo
I remember people complaining about Hideo being eligible for ROY because of his experience in Japanese baseball...but then someone pointed out how Jackie Robinson (who the ROY award is named after and its first recipient) had several years of Negro League experience prior to joining the MLB in 1947.
Martin dihigo is the 🐐
He is in 5 hall of fames and excelled in every role in baseball
I'm the greatest white 63 year old NBA player never to play in the NBA...
Because you chose not to chase a career to play in the NBA, you were never actively being prevented and blocked from doing so...
cry
Womp Womp buddy
Willie Mays the 🐐
Gibson dying the same year Jackie broke the color barrier feels scarily poetic
Also tragic as well, the guy wanted to play in the MLB.
0 MLB games played but leads MLB in most offensive categories. Alright.
Exactly it’s dumb
Then don't count pre integration stats either
Major League Baseball was a loose concept rather than an incorporated entity for nearly 100 years , have you ever noticed that every team is split into two leagues ? Do you realize that with this decision to include negro league statistics , there are now well over 10-12 leagues over the course of baseball history that are all included in the MLB record books ? I would tell you to educate yourself but that isn’t what this is about for you , is it ? You’re just upset and whining about “ woke “ culture … snowflake …
It's not like he had a choice on whether or not to play in the MLB
DEI
If NPB stats are added to MLB, Yu darvish will have 3K+ career strikeouts, and Ichiro would have 4K+ career hits
Ichiro would be the all time hit leader too
@@peskytalk he had a choice. these players didnt
Not really, im pretty sure you have to play a certain number of years in NPB before you can be posted to America. Also Ichiro was one of the very first Japanese players to play in MLB and definitely would NOT have gotten that opportunity if he didn’t show off his talents in NPB.
@@peskytalk he clearly means the ey we’re banned from the league, not that they had to play a certain about of years. Stop being purposely dense, we all know what he is saying
Don't forget Sadaharu Oh.
No doubt Gibson was great, but this would be like me saying my son’s .700+ batting avg this year in 9u travel ball is the all time mlb record
Wish they would put my alleged stats in also. I never played in the MLB but all myy stats are way above his.
You should see my stats from my backyard. Bonds HR record would be completely shattered.
dumfuk comment. You werent in a "professional" league.
@@cjvvaliente Wasn't about verifiable stats it is about all the heresay stats. Please don't make dumazz comments yourself.
It's pure pandering. We all know it. Statistically it's absurd and meaningless. There's no question Josh Gibson was a great player and would have been a huge star. But he would not have been hitting .400 with 60 home runs a year. Probably more like Johnny Bench/Yogi Berra numbers. With worse defense than Bench and maybe a few more home runs. He was Bill Dickey with power. Tradition and history are meaningless these days I guess.
First
Thank you!
this seems really ridiculous
The saddest part of this video is that it seems that Josh Gibson was completely capable of breaking these records if he was given the chance. I once heard someone say that both the pre integration MLB and Negro Leagues were inherently worse for not being integrated. Players on both sides, but especially in the case of the NL, will forever have an asterisk next to their names because they never got to face all the best players of their era in a well documented setting.
That being said, I do kinda want Ichiro's stats from NPB to count for his all time hits. Partially bc the fact that the current hits leader is banned from the Hall and the sport itself is just... weird.
Completely agree. I’m very disappointed that he never got a chance because he probably would be as legendary as a guy like Ted Williams, however then someone like Jackie Robinson wouldn’t be nearly as celebrated. Gibson was 100% one of the leading factors that let Jackie run into Major League Baseball, so he’ll always have that!
Hey MLB why we don't add the batting statistics of the games in the courtyard of my house, I officially have a record of 1,980 homers and more than 5 thousand RBI and Runs scored!!
And don't take my word for it; ask all my neighbors; they will surely tell you that there were many more than that!!
@@JGARCIA2012FULL Sure thing Julio, I'll contact the Mexican league and ask the lawnmowers and Home Depot amigos what you accomplished. We're talking baseball right? Not soccer?
According to my records J. Garcia only has 1,978 HR's.
Those two he hit off me (0.02 ERA that year with 684 K's) were in an Exhibition contest to raise money for Piston Hurricane.
@@9mmtrilla My friend, don't be surprised if the MLB also admits in its records the statistics of the Mexican leagues and the Caribbean leagues-a kind of "open borders," if you want to give it a name. Soon, the Cy Young Award will change its name to El Premio de Pedro González, to be more inclusive!!
Soccer? Never; I'm a fatty, and that's why I didn't make it to the MLB despite my impressive feats!!
No question Gibson was one of the best of his time.
Of his time 100%
Wish he was allowed to play in MLB
Actually there is a ton of question
Neat video, you earned a subscription :)
Thanks a lot 👍
Josh Gibson MIght be the greatest Ever, but his counting stats are very low
Very very low