Be interesting to see the size of the J50 motor. If same size as A1/3/4 then spares will be common. IMO Hornby will be moving to carbon brush motors on A1/3/3 soon (if they haven't already) - it must be doing the service depts head in replacing motors (or waiting for the tsunami when everyones locos hit 30 odd hours
Fully agree, Hornby are excellent on customer service so they will fix things but using the same type of motor is not ideal, by comparison Roco who have suffered terribly with motors and gears just ran away from the problem and let customers sort the fix themselves! When Carl made the point of a return to carbon brushed motors it’s clear that was in response to conversations back at Hornby Towers. On the Hornby forum, a constructive suggestion that many agree with would be a pre worm fitted carbon brush version of the N20 motor to be available under warranty for home or service dept fitting. If I can swap carbon brushes onto their motors I am sure there will be manufacturer who can do this as an OE version. We are talking 12,000 plus motors and moving forwards with continued sales of locos with the 3pole motor. I appreciate 12k motors is nothing to a large electrical component manufacturer but it’s a sizeable order.
Great video, I learned a fair bit also. I had a Farish 108 n gauge motor fail, when i got the end cap off it seemed to be filled with like a sludge, very surprising. The motor had been working intermittingly and tripping my short protectors, i have now replaced the motor. Thankyou for sharing.
Nice video, will be interested to see the temp video. I pointed Martin Weaver in one of the Facebook groups to your motor thread on the forums. Hopefully they take notice of this and start to replace the motors with more reliable ones.
Cheers Tim, I think Hornby are well aware of the short comings of the BE brush motors. If you read a lot of the promotional stuff from various motor manufacturers on BE Brushes they sound like the best things since sliced bread, except they don’t live up to the promise. The comments from Carl about the J50 and future motors coming with carbon brushes indicates that Hornby are less than impressed with the promised performance of BE brushes. So far I can’t find any reason why carbon brush motors wouldn’t be better, although we need to see how long these perform well for.
This has been a problem brewing in N Gauge for quite some time - these (cheap) 3 pole wiper brushed motors in a 1015 sized can have been used for quite some time by Farish in particular and smaller flavours by Dapol. Both have extensively been seen to exhibit the same type of failures - I've had to repair a lot. Notably though - the reason for this is yet to be definitively reached - but in my own experience with these there has been a direct correlation with most of them being used on DCC systems. I suspect that the truth here is that the brush wipers are being burnt down by arcing between the brushes and commutator (evidence you've seen on yours with the scoring of the commutator). I suspect at least part of the culprit here is PWM pulses or feedback from the chips, causing full power pulses that accentuate the arcing that always happens at the point of commutation. This can be the case with DC also, where feedback or PWM is used - it may be down to the frequency of PWM or suchlike also, but getting this solved is not easy without proper controlled testing. [I've seen someone burn the brushgear through in only 2 or so hours using the wrong controller - in that case a Hornby HM2000 with feedback on N gauge]. In terms of replacing with carbons - these will be better, but can open a different problem down the line. The Farish 66, 57, 37, 47s all came with such a motor from factory and these are now failing due to the commutators getting clogged up with carbon, particularly in the slots. This is, of course, just normal open frame motor maintenance, but with these semi-sealed motors, it can be a major pain to sort out (in the Farish models, you're having to pull flywheels to get access) - and I've seen quite a few motors burnt out as a result. So keep an eye on the current consumption of this over time - if it starts to rise you may be getting commutator slot clogging, which will start to semi-short things, and may need to pull the end cap again to clean this out, before the extra power dissipated leads to full failure. Oh for the days of the 5 pole open frame motor - they were superior for maintenance as compared these motors.
I do know there have been reported failures on DC and DCC but I did find an advice sheet from Maxon who are a well respected motor manufacturer for industrial equipment. They specifically quote BE brush motors are NOT Suitable for frequent stop/start and reverse running. Which is pretty much what we do with model locomotives. It will be interesting to see how this carbon brush conversion fares long term. The next stage will be coreless options. Thanks so much for the information and experience from N. I did think the commutator could well get contaminated with carbon debris. Glad I am am thinking on the right lines 👍
@@HighFell Bear in mind that the coreless motors have exactly the same commutation arrangement - certainly the small 6 and 7mm diameter ones Farish also use. These seem to have a lower failure rate, but the ones I've seen failed are exclusively from DCC users. Coreless also absolutely must be configured right on DCC also, as they don't have the same back-emf characteristics as iron cored motors - if done wrong this can also cause burnouts. I remain suspicious of arcing being the true cause - and PWM is basically a stop-start thing in terms of electricity. Sadly, the best possible replacement for these - namely the motors made by Mashima (5 pole, carbon brushed) are no longer made after the owner retired. None of these Hornby/Farish motors (which look to be identical) come close to the quality of those. Bear in mind that Maxon make the best. By comparison, these are el-ultra-cheapo from China at around a quid each [so that means they must cost pennies to make], so I'd wonder if they even have precious metal in them. At least cheap spares can be had on ebay - Farish want 22 quid a motor for one of their spares - which is just not practical. Would be interested to know of the source of the 6V brushed motors for end caps.
@@DrAl60103 thanks for the heads up. I’m no electrical expert so always happy to accept new information. The saving grace for the TT locos is that a new N20 motor is very cheap! It’s a shame the instead of tech moving us forward, it’s actually a bit rubbish. By comparison Piko who are a long time player in HO and TT, seem to be able to make motors that are very durable and capable and happy with both DC and DCC control systems and the locos are extremely good value. 😉 I put a link in a later video for the Carbon Brush motors although I said 6v they are 3.7-4.2v
Excellent Matt, really good demonstration and I have to say I also found fitting the brushes over the commutator about the hardest part. Probably due to the very limited gap to get in to. Your running result seems to be similar to mine so we must both be doing something right. I never thought to look at my commutator for signs of grooves but listening to you and your observations I am wondering if it is best to replace the end cap before problems start? One thing that is puzzling me though is the tape on the motor, on yours it is on top, on mine it was below. Although it is only thin, 0.25mm if that? then it could make a difference on the gear meshing could it not? Looking forward to the temperature test.
On my other locos it’s on the upper surface of the motor case, you have more than me so maybe you have a different experience. The refitting of the end cap with the carbon brushes is potentially the hardest part, using tweezers to line the brushes up is easier than it sounds. I did find using the gear puller tool very helpful. I appreciate this is not a job everyone would want to do but it’s certainly within the scope of many modellers and it does prove the concept that carbon brushes on these motors work without all the negatives the motor manufacturers list in their promotional literature. 👍
@HighFell I will keep my eye open on mine as and when now, thanks. I have my own home made tool similar to a gear puller which I used for moving 3mm wheels when fitting into Triang stock. I use it to start the disc and brush on its way out, then clip the brushes back and press on the pin at the end of the screw. I do need to get some of those very fine tweezers you have as all I had was fine wire and had to do one brush at a time but managed it.
@@garryhall5552 I first saw these cranked fine tweezers in a feature by Kathy Millatt, an absolute star of the hobby, she said how useful they were in scenic work but I find them invaluable in all aspects, they are my go to tool for many jobs and not expensive either 👍
@@stevenwring7317 I was thinking that as doing it! 🤣 I have also realised one part showing blanking plate removal didn’t upload in the editor, I will do a quick video on the end cap alterations alone.
Good video. Do you think replacement carbon brush motors will be available soon, rather than replacing the end cap, so the whole motor could be replaced? That might be a bit simpler!
I think that could well be something that is being looked at, it would be a very effective way forward. I spoke with someone from Hornby today who suggested a range of motor alternatives are being looked at. Despite what some commentators suggest, they are constantly developing and refining models. I suggested a motor pre fitted with worm drive reducing the operation down to body off, de solder motor connection swap out and re solder. I can’t speak for Hornby it sounds like this is being worked on. Until then these videos are options. 👍
Very interesting but scary... I think I will wait for Hornby to make the carbon brush version available as a replacement /spare part then swop out failed units as necessary. In the meantime I won't be running anything in reverse. 😂
@@kenfox7917 just run them, the easy fix is to replace with the same type of BE brushes, that takes seconds. Don’t let this stop you having fun with your trains! 😁
Very pleased to see this solution practically realized. Well done! Bee
Thanks Bee, it’s all about making things work 😁
Be interesting to see the size of the J50 motor. If same size as A1/3/4 then spares will be common. IMO Hornby will be moving to carbon brush motors on A1/3/3 soon (if they haven't already) - it must be doing the service depts head in replacing motors (or waiting for the tsunami when everyones locos hit 30 odd hours
Fully agree, Hornby are excellent on customer service so they will fix things but using the same type of motor is not ideal, by comparison Roco who have suffered terribly with motors and gears just ran away from the problem and let customers sort the fix themselves!
When Carl made the point of a return to carbon brushed motors it’s clear that was in response to conversations back at Hornby Towers. On the Hornby forum, a constructive suggestion that many agree with would be a pre worm fitted carbon brush version of the N20 motor to be available under warranty for home or service dept fitting. If I can swap carbon brushes onto their motors I am sure there will be manufacturer who can do this as an OE version. We are talking 12,000 plus motors and moving forwards with continued sales of locos with the 3pole motor. I appreciate 12k motors is nothing to a large electrical component manufacturer but it’s a sizeable order.
Great video, I learned a fair bit also. I had a Farish 108 n gauge motor fail, when i got the end cap off it seemed to be filled with like a sludge, very surprising. The motor had been working intermittingly and tripping my short protectors, i have now replaced the motor. Thankyou for sharing.
Glad it’s helped in another scale too. I don’t think a lot of these ‘new’ motors have lived up to the promises made to manufactures.
Another very informative video - thank you!
Thanks, TH-cam can be a force for good too 😁
Nice video, will be interested to see the temp video. I pointed Martin Weaver in one of the Facebook groups to your motor thread on the forums. Hopefully they take notice of this and start to replace the motors with more reliable ones.
Cheers Tim, I think Hornby are well aware of the short comings of the BE brush motors. If you read a lot of the promotional stuff from various motor manufacturers on BE Brushes they sound like the best things since sliced bread, except they don’t live up to the promise. The comments from Carl about the J50 and future motors coming with carbon brushes indicates that Hornby are less than impressed with the promised performance of BE brushes. So far I can’t find any reason why carbon brush motors wouldn’t be better, although we need to see how long these perform well for.
This has been a problem brewing in N Gauge for quite some time - these (cheap) 3 pole wiper brushed motors in a 1015 sized can have been used for quite some time by Farish in particular and smaller flavours by Dapol. Both have extensively been seen to exhibit the same type of failures - I've had to repair a lot.
Notably though - the reason for this is yet to be definitively reached - but in my own experience with these there has been a direct correlation with most of them being used on DCC systems. I suspect that the truth here is that the brush wipers are being burnt down by arcing between the brushes and commutator (evidence you've seen on yours with the scoring of the commutator). I suspect at least part of the culprit here is PWM pulses or feedback from the chips, causing full power pulses that accentuate the arcing that always happens at the point of commutation. This can be the case with DC also, where feedback or PWM is used - it may be down to the frequency of PWM or suchlike also, but getting this solved is not easy without proper controlled testing. [I've seen someone burn the brushgear through in only 2 or so hours using the wrong controller - in that case a Hornby HM2000 with feedback on N gauge].
In terms of replacing with carbons - these will be better, but can open a different problem down the line. The Farish 66, 57, 37, 47s all came with such a motor from factory and these are now failing due to the commutators getting clogged up with carbon, particularly in the slots. This is, of course, just normal open frame motor maintenance, but with these semi-sealed motors, it can be a major pain to sort out (in the Farish models, you're having to pull flywheels to get access) - and I've seen quite a few motors burnt out as a result.
So keep an eye on the current consumption of this over time - if it starts to rise you may be getting commutator slot clogging, which will start to semi-short things, and may need to pull the end cap again to clean this out, before the extra power dissipated leads to full failure.
Oh for the days of the 5 pole open frame motor - they were superior for maintenance as compared these motors.
I do know there have been reported failures on DC and DCC but I did find an advice sheet from Maxon who are a well respected motor manufacturer for industrial equipment. They specifically quote BE brush motors are NOT Suitable for frequent stop/start and reverse running. Which is pretty much what we do with model locomotives.
It will be interesting to see how this carbon brush conversion fares long term. The next stage will be coreless options.
Thanks so much for the information and experience from N. I did think the commutator could well get contaminated with carbon debris. Glad I am am thinking on the right lines 👍
@@HighFell Bear in mind that the coreless motors have exactly the same commutation arrangement - certainly the small 6 and 7mm diameter ones Farish also use. These seem to have a lower failure rate, but the ones I've seen failed are exclusively from DCC users. Coreless also absolutely must be configured right on DCC also, as they don't have the same back-emf characteristics as iron cored motors - if done wrong this can also cause burnouts. I remain suspicious of arcing being the true cause - and PWM is basically a stop-start thing in terms of electricity. Sadly, the best possible replacement for these - namely the motors made by Mashima (5 pole, carbon brushed) are no longer made after the owner retired. None of these Hornby/Farish motors (which look to be identical) come close to the quality of those.
Bear in mind that Maxon make the best. By comparison, these are el-ultra-cheapo from China at around a quid each [so that means they must cost pennies to make], so I'd wonder if they even have precious metal in them. At least cheap spares can be had on ebay - Farish want 22 quid a motor for one of their spares - which is just not practical. Would be interested to know of the source of the 6V brushed motors for end caps.
@@DrAl60103 thanks for the heads up. I’m no electrical expert so always happy to accept new information. The saving grace for the TT locos is that a new N20 motor is very cheap! It’s a shame the instead of tech moving us forward, it’s actually a bit rubbish. By comparison Piko who are a long time player in HO and TT, seem to be able to make motors that are very durable and capable and happy with both DC and DCC control systems and the locos are extremely good value. 😉
I put a link in a later video for the Carbon Brush motors although I said 6v they are 3.7-4.2v
Excellent Matt, really good demonstration and I have to say I also found fitting the brushes over the commutator about the hardest part. Probably due to the very limited gap to get in to.
Your running result seems to be similar to mine so we must both be doing something right.
I never thought to look at my commutator for signs of grooves but listening to you and your observations I am wondering if it is best to replace the end cap before problems start?
One thing that is puzzling me though is the tape on the motor, on yours it is on top, on mine it was below. Although it is only thin, 0.25mm if that? then it could make a difference on the gear meshing could it not?
Looking forward to the temperature test.
On my other locos it’s on the upper surface of the motor case, you have more than me so maybe you have a different experience.
The refitting of the end cap with the carbon brushes is potentially the hardest part, using tweezers to line the brushes up is easier than it sounds. I did find using the gear puller tool very helpful.
I appreciate this is not a job everyone would want to do but it’s certainly within the scope of many modellers and it does prove the concept that carbon brushes on these motors work without all the negatives the motor manufacturers list in their promotional literature. 👍
@HighFell I will keep my eye open on mine as and when now, thanks.
I have my own home made tool similar to a gear puller which I used for moving 3mm wheels when fitting into Triang stock. I use it to start the disc and brush on its way out, then clip the brushes back and press on the pin at the end of the screw.
I do need to get some of those very fine tweezers you have as all I had was fine wire and had to do one brush at a time but managed it.
@@garryhall5552 I first saw these cranked fine tweezers in a feature by Kathy Millatt, an absolute star of the hobby, she said how useful they were in scenic work but I find them invaluable in all aspects, they are my go to tool for many jobs and not expensive either 👍
Hi, very interesting, what could be useful here is reverse tweezers to hold th3 brushes a part.
@@stevenwring7317 I was thinking that as doing it! 🤣 I have also realised one part showing blanking plate removal didn’t upload in the editor, I will do a quick video on the end cap alterations alone.
Good video. Do you think replacement carbon brush motors will be available soon, rather than replacing the end cap, so the whole motor could be replaced? That might be a bit simpler!
I think that could well be something that is being looked at, it would be a very effective way forward. I spoke with someone from Hornby today who suggested a range of motor alternatives are being looked at. Despite what some commentators suggest, they are constantly developing and refining models. I suggested a motor pre fitted with worm drive reducing the operation down to body off, de solder motor connection swap out and re solder. I can’t speak for Hornby it sounds like this is being worked on. Until then these videos are options. 👍
@@HighFell many thanks.
Very interesting but scary... I think I will wait for Hornby to make the carbon brush version available as a replacement /spare part then swop out failed units as necessary. In the meantime I won't be running anything in reverse. 😂
@@kenfox7917 just run them, the easy fix is to replace with the same type of BE brushes, that takes seconds. Don’t let this stop you having fun with your trains! 😁