We fit oval tube as its faster and lower cost than clipping overall. Its not mechanical protection though. Flat twin and earth encased directly in plaster complies with all those regs you listed. All of them. The only small benefit from a safety point of view is agaisnt the plasters trowel. In narrow chases its a none issue. I totally agree it looks a lot better from a clients points of view, can help with future rewiring and saves on grometts into back boxes. But it is no more compliant than just clipping cable to a wall. Suggesting a spark is mediocre for not using capping is a bit harsh lol. If we want to improve on twin and earth in a wall from a safety point of view would be via containment in earth metallic conduit or using swa. Is that a costs clients need to suffer when carefully clipped and tested cable offers the same service and less destruction to the building during installation? Maybe those writing the regs have thought this out. Still overall I am with you. Capping/tube looks better and is quicker. Each to their own, lift others higher.
My thoughts exactly, as long as its in the zone you can clip direct ? I mean if someone bangs a nail in where your cable is, its liable to go straight through the capping anyway, and the cost would fall on the builder
I'm still not buying in on the capping thing here. Cables already have mechanical protection. If it was used for protection then a nail would go right the plastic, so why not use metal conduit. Reality often is if anything goes to court which is very rare, then 7671 pretty much gets pushed to one side. I respect the angle Tom's taking but I don't agree tbh
Tom, I like your vids generally and as someone who also takes pride in his work, applaud the thrust of "a picture paints a thousand words" when some one looks at oval conduit in a neat chase... and that used to be my stance running cacles in concealed conduit. I think however you are misquoting the BBB to justify your argument. I would be keen to see the design considerarations/calculations of having 2 or 3 (maybe more) T&E stuffed into conduit when it comes to the load CCC of the design. Cg etc and the difficulty for cables to dissapate heat in conduit compared to the heatsink of bonding. Now I don't have the books to hand to look up installation methods but I'm pretty certain it has to be considered as lowering the CCC. The only reason to cover cables in a chased walll is so when the plasterer comes over to bond it in, they don't knick the cables with his trowel, exposing conductors. I've gone over to using British Gypsum OneCoat to secure cables in the wall before leaving it just below the plaster for the skim coat and takes me a few minutes. An IR test beforehand tells me if there is damage that might cause an issue to Betty Crocker with her wet sponge cleaning it off afterwards. The RCBO would save her receiving a shock from the damp plaster in any case. The plasterer can do the skim coat with no chance of me having to go back. If Betty later decides she wants to hang a picture on the wall and hammers through my cables, the fact that they are heating up in oval conduit less that 50mm below the surface and protected by Kryptonite-like (NOT!) PVC conduit will not cause the nail to bounce off the capping/conduit, even metal capping: but will pierce it as though it wasn't there, the RCBO will then come into play.. The other consideration on an horizontal run, in zone say between sockets is the safety of the wall where you cannot chase any more than a sixth of the wall thickness to keep the integrity of the structure. If the wall is 100mm as internal wall oftern are, you are limiting the depth to 16.66mm. I am a huge advocate of levelling up the industry but not necessarily here. I am happy to proved wrong though.
As a mechanical protection, its more to stop a plasterer catching a cable, i do it because it looks neat and more recently i've been doing kitchen, lounge switch drops in 20mm pvc conduit, the plus side i got a call from a previous client asking wether they could have the downlights in the kitchen on 2 switches.. bingo bango i was able to slip another t&e down the conduit split the circuit without damaging any of their new freshly decorated kitchen ... now im pricing for a friend of there's rewire ..
You're wrong. Nowhere in the regs does it specify a requirement for capping or tubing. It does specify RCD protection though for new installations and thats all you need at this moment in time in terms of protection against shocks for cables buried less than 50mm. If it was so important the regs would specify it for example in the presence of certain external conditions like damp in the fabric of the building. totally agree it looks better and if the customer was prepared to pay for it i would every time but thats not the way it goes unfortunately. Show me a single court case where a spark has been prosecuted for not fitting capping and someone died or just got a shock? to suggest a barrister would wrap you up like a kipper in court is laughable. stop it man
Nope. BS7671 lists cables embedded direct in masonry without added mechanical protection as a legitimate installation method. You'll find it in table 4A2, on P389, number 57. All capping does is protect cables from the plasterer's trowel during plastering. Necessary when solid wet plastering was common, as the trowel was likely to come into contact with the cable otherwise. It's not really needed now in the dot-n-dab age, or when chased into existing plaster, as the odds of the trowel hitting the cables is low. My plasterer has specifically asked me to omit it.
Well done, Sir. Shame Mr Nagy didn't bother to make sure he actually knew what he was talking about before spouting rubbish on TH-cam. I always liked his videos, but I'm unsubscribed now. He's far too pretentious for me these days.
Fit an actual electrical system protection device and don't make customer pay for what is very expensive additional insulation on perfectly good electrical cabling...
Sorry, but this is just you ranting because you're fed up with competing against cheaper electricians Tom. Whilst I agree with you about the standards of work needing to be better, you can't use the courtroom to frighten people. BS 7671 is a non statutory document that cannot be used in court. EAWR is statutory and does use BS 7671 as it's guide as is Part P, but I think you're really stretching things here. I started my electrical apprenticeship in 1988 and oval conduit was about three times thicker than it is now. Despite it's thickness, it still didn't offer any protection against a hammer and a nail. Today's oval and capping is so thin, you could push a nail through without a hammer so it only offers the protection that it was intended to and that is against sharp edges, such as the plasterer's trowel. If you're being prosecuted for dangerous working practices, I very much doubt a barrister will be reading from BS 7671. There will be an expert witness in attendance, who themselves will be at least an electrician and they will be the ones reading scripture. One other thing. It isn't good to call electricians mediocre for not using capping, you've overstepped the line there. I should add that I always fit oval conduit, but that's down to my own personal preference.
I disagree on the use of capping, unless it's specifically required in a location in BS7671. Capping constantly cuts wires where the wire exits the capping, I used it all the time at the start, but realised that they will cause more issues than they prevent. They also restrict heat, you need 50% space free within capping for it to not be derate the CCC due to the fact that plastic prevents the loss of heat much more than plaster, you know this, but I haven't seen you account for that in your builds. Btw I'm pretty sure you've seen examples of nails through galvanized steel capping... in fact, that's how many of the older guys fit it to the wall... by nailing it in... So how is plastic capping going to help against nails and screws when even galvanized steel can't? Maybe I just think you shouldn't be throwing that term around... Mediocre electrician.... A mediocre electrician is one who likely installs the cheapest shit around but meets the guidelines, a great electrician installs the best of what they client needs, makes suggestions to futureproof their home or business, never installs a dual RCD board, and makes sure their wiring and install is perfect, and obviously meets BS7671 and often exceeding the requirements at every stage. I personally take images of all the wiring (so they can retrospectively understand their wiring), and give those to customers with their EIC + EICR, (they get both with a board change let alone a rewire) and spend time carefully explaining to customers what prescribed zones are, and how they can use that method to determine where is safe and where is not to fit pictures, tv's etc. I've also just bought an IR camera which cost me an arm and a leg to look for hot spots in the wiring. It's not a requirement, it looks better, (maybe if your wiring looks like shit) but it's actually worse for the home in the long run... Once Betty crocker has changed her sockets a couple of times, if you've poked your conduit through the back box you will be well through the insulation where the T&E meets the conduit. It's also worth noting that you're bringing the cables closer to the surface by adding capping, or taking even more wall out for its installation, I'm sure betty crocker would like to keep the extra half centimetre in the wall you'd need to remove to install the capping. I wanted to see your motives to install it, I approached the vid with an open mind, but you ignored any negatives associated to installing it, and there are issues. The other thing is Tom, are bad electricians spending their time watching and learning from others on YT?
Your last point was the main point. If you walk into a takeaway, which I did, and see a oven being run off an extension lead, I know the refrigerators are full of out of date food. It's the same as checking out the toilets, before sitting down in a restaurant. Point: if a business is slacking in one area, they are likely slacking in all areas. The same reason why police pull you over if you have a light out, likelihood, they will find more. Food health and safety pretty much run off this no smoke without fire to give businesses a zero star, which is why paperwork, records and risk assessments are so important.
Not arguing that it shouldn't be done well, but the regs argument doesn't seem that convincing - "...Withstand safely the stresses and environmental conditions...." in a normal domestic situation, how does a direct-buried cable in a wall not meet this requirement? What stresses and environmental conditions in a domestic situation does capping/conduit protect against ? You have two layers of PVC insulation to guard against any water-based issue. Probably the most plausible risk is a nail going through it, but if you accept that as a realistic situation, should you not be fitting (earthed) metal capping, as a nail would easily go through plastic? Wondering what danger or fault situations have people seen with an un-capped/enclosed cable chased into a wall , which would have been prevented by capping/conduit?
You're considering the presence of capping solely as a safety measure to the end user. I've always considered capping as the protective measure for cable against the plasterers trowel and the long term erosion caused by plaster itself.
I agree, I think it should as good workmanship have capping, but those regs I would say make reference to not putting twin and earth outdoors or buried underground. Capping is there to protect the cables when plastering... I have seen plasterers rip capping off as the plaster does not stick to it very well.. I agree if you were that worried you would put it with metal earthed conduit or capping, or run SWA in walls.. Interesting in other countries they dont have prescribed zones as they argue, why bother you have an RCD, There must have been multiple failings for something to have happened as all new wiring should be RCD protected. We dont fit capping or any other kind or protection in stud walls.. Again I am not saying its not the correct thing to do but the regs are so wooley I would be surprised if any sparks would get convicted on that basis as a decent defence barrister would just shred that regulation to bits.. Would love to raise the bar on every job but we all know most domestic installations people just want it to work and as cheap as possible. If its the option between a split load board or keep the old rewireable board with no RCD protection because they cant afford a full RCBO board.. What is better?
@@johnadams1976 thats not the point of the capping, it is there purely to stop the plasterer damaging the cable when filling in the chases, putting cables in zones and additional RCD protection is put in place to stop you getting injured by hammering a nail. It should be fitted as standard..
Firstly, your videos 5 or 6 years ago when I first set my business up inspired me to want to improve my work and knowledge every day, I learned a lot, very quickly from you and it is important to let you know I appreciate it. That being said, capping unless it is galvanised steel conduit for instance, does not meet the requirements for mechanical protection. If you were to wire outside the zones for example, simply fitting capping would not comply however installing steel conduit would. By the way I use capping on every installation so I do also agree with you that we should all be fitting it. I also and agree with your perspective on doing things over and above. I was once taught the regulations should be complied to as a minimum standard. Keep up the good work and I will keep watching your content.
Unless the lack of capping was a contributory factor to an incident it shouldn't be a factor in any legal action - any half-decent defence should make that point.
The prosecution will destroy you in it and will make the money grab argument and the dead granny argument and no matter how good ur defence is ur snookered
Yeah I think you could argue that the cable was damaged by the plasterer, now would capping have stopped that.. Probably, but Ive seen plasters rip capping off cause the plaster wont stick to it as easy of there is no guarantee a bit of plastic will protect the cable. I think you could make a good defence that it was the plasters shoddy workmanship and him that caused the fault.. Again I always fit capping and think you should, but I dont think it would be as clear cut in a court.. I think any defence barrister would simply say where does it say in the regs that capping is required when burying cable in walls? Its not in there, case closed... Should it be in there, yeah probably... But its not specifically stated, its another example of the regs book being wishy washy and open to interpretation..
@@Sierraomega1991 Spoken by someone who clearly knows nothing about the law or legal process. It really is hilarious when non-lawyers try to talk authoritatively about law. Causation is a critical part of any tortious or contractual claim and the burden of proof is on the claimant. If the lack of capping did not cause the injury, it is irrelevant to the matter of liability. It really isn't that difficult to understand.
I agree. At 10:15 when he was acting like there wasn't an answer... There's no regs that say you need it. It's not the reason this person died. If someone was to bang a screw in it the. Plastic cappings not gonna do anything. And also affordability in my opinion is also a good reason. This persons electrics wasn't safe and they could only just afford a rewire without capping.
So, why don't the regulations spell it out? "Wherever practical, cable shall not be buried in plaster without additional mechanical protection conforming to BS whatever". If the regulations don't spell it out, they are sh!t.
This is why we run all our cables in "tubes". Good protection and you can replace the cable should it get damaged. But thats with 3 loose wires in the pipe. Easy to drag in a new pair :D
A few years back, I skimmed our kitchen. I put my hand on the wet plaster to see if it was ready to trowel off and got chucked backwards across the room. After a little bit of investigation, when they nailed up the galv capping, they'd nailed through the cable too. The wall was presumably dry enough for this to not be noticed until someone chucked wet plaster over it. Couldn't pull the damaged cable out as it had been nailed in place, so had to hack my nice new plaster off the wall 🤣
@@andyxox4168 how? The shock makes you jump? What force from a shock could throw you across a room. (Electrician, shocked countless times, know many electricians that have been shocked many times. Only diy and homeowners tell us their thrown across the room stories) 🤷♂️
agreed it looks much better but as far as regs go your argument for it being legal seems a bit off. I've been called to faults where metal capping has been penetrated with a tiny picture nail leaving a N-E fault. To reveal the cable in the wall was a right nightmare. I don't think capping offers any protection whatsoever it just looks better. Sorry can't see a barrister arguing it should be installed because it looks better.
Yeah - how about actually use the electrical system protection devices such as RCBOs instead of making the customer pay for capping which does not much more than add an extra layer of plastic for wires you could've probably already bought with thicker insulation that outperforms typical capping...
3 advantages to capping 1 is that it offers protection between first and second fix, 2 is when it’s plastered it has a hollow sound behind the plaster so easily identified and 3 there’s like a 10% chance you’ll get another cable down it
I disagree with having to install capping or that if you don't you're a mediocre spark. Capping does not provide mechanical protection in any way. I believe it's was an old wife's tail that metal capping would stop people from putting nails through cables which it doesn't and the way I see it, in today's world is it is there to prevent plasterers from nicking/hitting a cable with their trowel. It's not there to protect the cables from normal operation. The chases you did on the last job with the metabo are neat and small, any competent plaster should be able to put a bonding coat in without striking a cable. And if we really want to play by the blue book, you shouldn't be energising cables that are still to be plastered because there is more chance of wet plaster being applied round live sockets causing death than betty crocker washing a wall with a wet sponge in my opinion. Great content as usual, keep it up!
Capping is only used to protect the cable from the plasterers trowel, installing in conduit de-rates the cable. I personally have always used plastic capping in void properties. In occupied properties definitely not. Also you have to be careful how deep your cutting chases, you could actually make the wall unstable.
Very valid point about how deep your chases are! Especially flats.. you can actually weaken the walls to the point of severe collapse when it’s poured concrete etc.. “Vertical chases should be no deeper than one third of the wall thickness - with standard 100mm bricks and blocks, that going to be 33mm, which is quite deep anyway - that’s not allowing for any plaster coating which could be 10mm so the maximum depth then works out at 36mm from the front face of the plaster.’
i like this pov. toms after 5 socket drops per room plus two way and inermediate switches in the living rm!! i think that metabo chaser has taken over his mind like the borg
@@CraigJFW actually did a rewire like that for someone once. Even the kids bedrooms had two way switches by the beds, 5 double sockets, 6 downlights, and a double RJ45 in each room, they had four kids! 😂
Just from my laymans point of view: electrical cabling is already covered by plastic.. what additional protection is the additional layer of plastic going to help with? How about save the extra work for the customer and put it in to the safety that the RCBOs provide. Naturally fit metal capping if somewhere in the house there is actual chance for the wires getting under stress.
For me it's all about protecting the cables during installation as I don't think capping offers any protection forward from that point. We have a company rule, capping used when in contact with direct plaster, like chases but anything else, dot and dab where sharp tools won't be used during installation I don't feel it is necessary
Who is an electrician and has seen problems, especially when fitting new RCD boards, and you find a fault, you eventually find the fault and its a nail to hold in the capping that has clipped the cable? I agree though that it should be fitted, I really like fitting pvc flexicon glanded into the back box, will make any future rewire a breeze as the cables can be pulled up and down..
I agree with you, but glanding into a galv back box seems a bit excessive (though carry on if it makes you happy). A quicker alternative is to simply push some oval tubing through the box knockout so it just enters the box - the tube acts as a grommit, protecting the cable from the metal edge, and it allows for ease of rewiring, as you mention.
In Northern Ireland 20mm conduit used 98% of the time on every job. Oval is useless as can't get much down them and if told someone you were using capping, they'd laugh you off the site. Also when doing upstairs you can rewire or add to cabling from attic.
Controversial Tom but its your opinion and I respect that. Capping offers no protection at all for nails or drill bits, its not earthed and you'll never end up in a court for not fitting it. I always use capping as it makes the install so much neater with a couple of pieces of all round band rather than clipping cables direct. You never know what goes on onsite between first and second fix so offering just that extra piece of protection is always a must for me.
Personally, I was always taught that anything in a building where wall-chasing happens or fitting cabling behind false walls, you always use medium density electrical conduit to afford mechanical protection to the wiring you install. You do this from the fittings up to roof space height. It comes down to Workmanship and the safety of what you install, sure you can't stop anyone down the track drilling through your conduit, but it just gives your wiring a lot better protection. Thanks for bringing this up, Tom.
Good points - but isn’t sheath mechanical protection on T&E? Also is a plastic capping going to stop a screw, drill or nail gun? The only way to prevent this is to pipe It up in earthed galvanised galv. 🤷🏼 How far do you go? I see you not having a defence if you placed singles directly into the wall, but not with a T&E…. I had an instance where a plasterer ripped all of mine out after fitting it on a rewire years ago…
The new wiring is insulation tested, should read 500M at 500v how will anyone get shock? the metal and plastic capping offers very little mechanical protection , I agree better to install as gives some protection against other tradesmen damaging the cables. This is why RCD protection is used in case cables are damaged by occupants
Thomas likes metal capping, some kitchen fitter comes in after, sticks a screw through the capping and live conductor... Remember the capping is not earthed, old Betty washes the wall, gets a shock.... Mr Nagy was your choice to fit metal capping not earthed a contributing factor? You could rattle off all those same regs and argue it would be case closed..
@@steve11211 Very good point, its also an absolute ball ache repairing cables that are behind cappings that have been damaged by nails or drill bits. Repairing an upcapped cable is much easier.
Save the customer the work of adding an extra layer of insulation for cabling which you could've probably bough with thicker insulation from the get-go and instead fit the goddamn RCBOs which are the actual protection devices.
I always use ovel conduit, if a damaged cable needs replacing, it's alot easier to pull another through, with capping, it's not so easy, and cable plastered in the wall is a bodge, and looks shit, in my opinion, anyway.
Cable drops in plastic conduiit of any shape, round or oval, are afforded no extra mechanical or electrical protection, but look professional. The obvious very good reason for conduit installation is to provide, in the event of any subsequent damage to the cables from for example careless picture hanging, a possible way to rewire wire the drop without decorative damage. I notice in some of your videos that the enclosed plastic conduit drops you install stop some inches short of the back boxes. These installations therefore provide no extra mechanical or electrical protection neither can any damaged drop be easily replaced without decorative damage?
Hi Thomas. Whilst I completely agree with you on your views regarding capping or any other form of mechanical protection I must state.: - BS7671 is not LAW they are recommendations which if fo;llowed will comply with the Electricity at work regs 1989 and Electricity at work act 1974. Surely a Barrister would be using one of the two publications which apply and are MANDATORY requirements for all Electrical work. This is by no means a criticism Thomas just pointing out my view.
Capping ensures the cables are in the chases neatly and prevents any damage when the wall is being finished or plastering. As for mechanical protection both plastic and metal offer none whatsoever they are so thin. If your in a situation where fitting capping is not possible such as a wall with very thin depth or just a small chase its not worth it
Sami Khamis - I'd say & know installed conduct rather than capping is more professional thinking. You've cut the chase anyhow but you don't need to cut as much out so save time & making good is much quicker...... capping is a stop gap measure, nice to see some even pvc conduct install work glued & fixed with male or female end points making pulling through the cable so simple.
13 seconds in Tom and personally I think conduit/pipe is better over capping. The cable is safer, if you use galv you can easily find it, and rewiring is a doddle with conduit/pipe.
@@londontrada I don't know mate, there are thousands of cases accross the uk every day most no one ever knows about. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Jesus companies have been in court because employees have dumb and nor followed rules and its the companies fault.
@@stuartcraigon2003 No, If someone had been prosecuted for using plastic capping it would cause a change in the industry. The regs are not even a statuary document.
I think your whole legal argument could be argued against pretty easy. I install cables to their required zones. If somebody was to stick a pin in the wall to hang a picture then it would be their fault. Capping wouldnt do shit to protect the cable anyway. I do fit capping, but for no reason due to BS7671 as my interpretation of it is that you don't need capping. I fit capping because of your first points - its neat and tidy and leaves an impression. I also fit capping for plasteres.
Didn't we originally fit it to keep the plaster off the cable because it destroyed the insulation? The protection it offers is minimal to none. It is useless when it comes to nails and drills and only really has a job to do when the plasterer is in. Granny can still be electrocuted when wiping the walls down with capping fitted if the cable is faulty. The arguement to fit it should primarily be a technical one and nothing else. It looks to me like it has become a tradition rather than a technical neccesity. FYI, I fitted it when building my extension because after talking to manufacturers, electricians and someone at the institute where they write those regulations, not a single person could definitively give me a yes or no to the question "do I have to fit it".
"Withstand safely the stresses and environmental conditions". When you consider that the most likely time that a cable buried in the wall will be damaged is when someone puts a nail through it when hanging a picture, or drilling through it when putting up a shelf. Plastic capping does nothing to stop that happening - it happens all the time. The thin steel capping is nearly as bad, offers next to no protection against a hammer and nail. Sorry, but if you want to do it where it will be protected against the most common types of damage, you really need to put it in round steel conduit. Lets face it, a cable buried in a wall is perfectly safe until someone puts a nail through it, or drills through it. Plastic capping will not prevent that. What plastic capping does help to prevent is the heavy handed plasterer sticking his trowel through the cable. And of course using capping could well make the next rewire easier, plus it looks so much more professional. But for protection - nope, next to useless.
Also to add to that the whole cable zone arguement as well as RCD protection is a massive bit of protection for you in that kind of scenario "Why didn't you install capping or conduit" "Why should it be needed the cable wasn't under any risk of damage had it not had a nail driven through it, also the cables were installed in the correct cable zones according to BS7671 so nothing should've been fixed there in the first place and RCDs/RCBOs were installed in order to protect the person in the event they decided to drive a nail through a cable"
@@joefrayling9263 are you for real! Zones! Had it not had a nail driven through it! You do know that no normal person knows or gives a shit about zones! As for RCD etc I've seen brand new out of the box units fail to operate, how many people religiously get their fixed wiring regularly inspected, just because they are fitted doesn't mean they will operate. You've obviously not tried putting a nail into capping because it's bloody obvious the substrate has changed and something isn't right!
@@stuartcraigon2003 no I havnt put a nail through capping in a long time because I'm not a moron and I stopped using it in favour of oval tube a long time ago. Also yes they fail (were talking rewire new install here btw I feel like that needs to be said) but that is why we test them to ensure that they are working properly if they are not working properly after just being installed and they are left there then that spark is a twat and shouldn't be anywhere near electrics. It doesn't matter wether or not everyone knows about them (cable zones) the fact is they exist and they exist for a reason and that is to protect our ass when some dinlow puts a nail through a cable if they were in the right cable zone then there is no reason someone couldn't have got informed on how cables are installed and where prior to banging nails in the wall left and right. And yes had a nail not Been steamed Into the cable that was installed in a zone invented to try and mitigate exactly that and that was also protected by a properly tested and working RCD/RCBO the cable would've been fine and free from damage in that environment for the foreseeable future thus not requiring any further mechanical protection (of which capping offers next to fuck all) but because some divvy couldn't be bothered to spend 5 minutes learning about where cables might be they did in fact drive a nail into it. RCDs were invented to protect people using the electricity cable zones were invented to protect electricians from getting collard by people who are dimp enough to bang a nail through a wall in the general vicinity of an electrical accessory, it puts the blame back on whoever nailed the cable as opposed to whoever installed the cable
@@stuartcraigon2003 also just to back myself up about being to lazy to learn I typed into Google literally just now "where are cables likely to be in my house" and the very first thing that came up was a GSH video about "the prescribed zones for wiring cables on walls" try it yourself not even 5 minutes to learn less than 10 seconds. "I didn't know" isn't a valid excuse for anything in this day and age where Information is so readily accessible
"Mechanical Protection" hm... that plastic conduit isn't going to save Betty Crocker's nephew when he nails the ducks to the wall... but the RCD might.
I use oval for speed and neatness. I am on the understanding that the plaster can affect the insulation? Deterioration over time? Clipping direct if one chooses to do so, would be done in prescribed zones so compliant 🤷♂️
Thank you I live in New Zealand and we have the same problem here, everyone is in a race to the bottom. Let’s do it better for the customer and for our own pride
Its an interesting subject but I doubt not having capping installed would win a court case provided everything was done correctly, the capping thing is open to interpretation it's an engineering judgement situation. In your example old Betty carking it because a cable was damaged and she washed the wall the 2 people at fault would be the plasterer and the sparks the plasterer for damaging the cable and not alerting anyone and the spark for not carrying out proper testing of the installation because that damage capping or not would show up when you do you tests. Would it have been damaged if capping was present, probably but that still doesn't negate the fact that the tests weren't properly carried out so I doubt it would hold much weight. The other arguement would be an external factor the old nail through a cable that we've all seen in this scenario capping wouldn't have prevented the damage but if presented with that the counter to it would be cables installed in the correct zones and RCD protection if they are done as per the regs then the capping argument would be null and void since the whole point of cable zones and RCD protection is to stop people putting nails through cables and the stop them being fried if they still do
Forgive me for asking, however, as I am in the US, how is plastic capping any good for wire protection in brick/concrete walls? If there is a drill or nail, going though concrete, not sure that a thin plastic capping would save the wire from that? Shouldn't it be steel capping to provide protection against nails / drilling etc? Keep up the good work sir! 👍
its not, it was originally intended to protect cables from the plastering. ive found a few over the years kitchen fitters going straight through it fitting cupboards and just turning the tripped circuit back on, if it stays on!
Tomas, you are right, I am an electrician in Norway and here the cable that you use for installations is illegal according to the law and rules to be used without a channel, pipes because the cable does not have double insulation to grounding. Here it is a cable type PR 2x2.5 +2.5 we can use this cable in open installations where inspection is possible. For installations that are covered and hidden, a double-insulated cable or a corrector tube with conductors is always used, here are examples of PFXP cables or TECON
Sorry Tom, I have to disagree with you on this one. The most likely cause of damage to any cable in a domestic wall is Betty knocking a nail through it when she's putting up her grandchild's graduation photo. Plastic capping will offer no additional protection whatsoever to the cables from that. Mr Lawyer might well ask in that case why did you charge Mrs Crocker extra for capping which offers no extra protection when, if that was your aim, there are other solutions available to you specifically designed to achieve that end. Indeed, a lay-person seeing capping may well think it is there to offer protection. The home--owner may, as a consequence be less careful about their nailing, in the mistaken belief that if they do hit the capping, it will protect the cable (and them). Wrong, it won't!
Plastic capping doesn't give any protection whatsoever from drills or nails being hammered in to a cable. As long as cables are in the correct zones, ie straight up and down where there is an outlet l can't see the problem with direct clipping. More effort should be made to make sure correct RCD,RCBO and MCB are in place and fit for purpose.
Well I am from the other side of the pond and yes our construction techniques are different but when it comes down to it you got to protect your product AKA The wire and if you are a plumber the pipe capping nail plates hardened sleeves whatever it takes when your names involved you don't want that call you up the good work
From Australia, your content in terms of business and how to set up and work towards growth has driven me to take the next step and invest alot into my electrical business. one can never forecast the future but I'm confident in my own ability to succeed. Thank u for the extra motivation.
Mr Nagy, Thank you for advertising our company. Mrs Crocker is very good customer. She has lot of work from us, we do electric, gas, tiling, plumbing, plastering and she is very happy. You do not need to concern with her falling down stairs - we fitted S&K stair lift 3000™ for her last week, she now very good on the stairs. We will in future use cap you mentione when doing electricity work - I have purchase baseball caps for my employee to wear when doing electricity - they will wear this instead of cowboy hat - we save these for gas works.
Been in the high court due to a health and safety accident believe me you never ever want to be in that situation the company had done nothing wrong but still an awful thing to go through it was lucky the company followed all health and safety training and had all proper procedures in place it would have ended badly if they hadn't
Firstly TN is a youtube legend BUT I can't believe he let Artisan get to 100K first :) RE: This video, the blue book is non-statutory and clipping direct is ok if all other regs are abided by. Yes it looks better and I agree with Mark The Spark, oval conduit actually saves time and therefore money and does look better. Capping is a must on block walls that will be bonded out or even dot'n'dabbed to protect against the plasterers trowel, but if you are doing a standard rewire that damage if very very unlikely, again though, I agree it does look better and does set you apart from those who don't bother, but you can't really throw the regs at it.
Sorry completely disagree with you on capping. ALL it does is give some protection from plaster's trowels. It gives bugger all mechanical protection once buried and those who use metal capping never earth it so potentially creating more of a hazard. Omitting capping doesn't save time as often it's ballache to get cable clips to stay in the walls depending on the type of masonry. Far better to fit conduit, whether that be oval or round and if you want to achieve mechanical protection then do metal conduit (unless that's too much effort?). That way you can easily rewire in future without opening up existing chases.
@@CoulterTravel What happened to street lighting and commercial work supplanting domestic house bashing I thought that was consigned to the past? My guess is he baulked at the low rates subbing to a subcontractor subbing to the main contractor.................crumbs from the table.
I can see the point your making, it dose make you look more professional, but installing plastic capping or oval conduit. Dose not provide much much protection, we have all been there installing practice capping and it cracks or brakes. Would you go back to installing earthed metal conduit ?
As electricians we all know that capping does not offer mechanical protection against a nail or screw but does offer protection against the plasterers trowel. On rewires, where narrow chases have been made, the plasterers trowel will cover the width of the chase, therefore it is unlikely the plasterers trowel will damage the cable. Similarly, where dot and dab is used, there is no risk from the plasterers trowel. However, I do agree that by installing capping, whether on a rewire, dot and dab walls or walls that are being directly plastered, it is perceived as being better. Many years ago, I was working on a project, where metal capping had been installed. There was a fault with one of the slave telephone points. A BT engineer came out and said that the he suspected that one of the cables had become damaged, perhaps by the plaster. I explained that metal capping had been installed to provide protection against the plasterer and he told the client that we were wrong to have installed metal capping as this could have damaged the cable during installation 🤷♂️and could have caused damp to penetrate the cable. I couldn’t believe my ears. The client complained to the builder who we were working for and to appease the client we ran in a new telephone cable.
Mate, I came across a similar problem few years ago. That BT Engineer was right. Since then I never use capping at all. If anything I’m chasing the wall deep enough (as long as the wall allows) to be impossible to be damaged by other trades (plasterer). Not even metal conduit will give you protection from drill bits.
Your right about the regs, there was a case of a guy, came home pissed, put the landing light on, bulb blew, he decided it was a good idea to stand on a chair, hanging over the stairs, in the dark, and change the bulb, he fell, and sued the council and won, because some switched on lawyer found a reg that the light position didn't comply with the regs, I think he got around £100k. It happened in flint North Wales. And I recently used this example with a customer, who wanted me to fit a light over the stairs where he couldn't reach, I refused to do it, he understood after reading the story.
Capping gives protection from the plaster's trowel. It is vey easy to nick the cable. I notice that Tom does not bury his capping deep enough to allow a decent depth of plaster, so to avoid cracking, I can see why plasters would remove it.
🤔 The trowel used for either the base coat or render is normally a plastic float and definitely not capable of damage to a cable ! The metal float is only used for the skimmed top coat . I've only been in the Industry 35 years, so what would I know 🙄🙄
I totally agree much prefer to use conduit for all the reasons express.
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I am not at electrician by trade, but the frasing in the regulation book sounds weird. You have a regulation that states that you need to evaluate if you instalation has proper mechanical protection the question is to what extent?Proper mechanical protection if someone is pressure washing their walls, if someones water piper burst,... there are a million possible coincidents that cant happen and you can interpret those regulations in many ways. Its just weird to me.
Most safety regs are vague like this, often stating you must do what is "reasonably practicable".... it is up to you to try to decipher what that is. Tom's approach was what I was taught - imagine yourself in the dock explaining why you did (or didn't) do something. If (in this case) the regs clearly stated that cable run in plaster must be (or doesn't need to be) capped, it would be so much easier!
Like you videos. In Denmark where i come from, we never use capping. Some times, we put the conduit in the wall for easy replacement, but never for protecting the cable.
Same problem in Gas Industry you could do everything to regs and to the letter, but gas safe and courts would still find something you " should have done" plus lots of clients want Rolls Royce Jobs for Mini money. Such a Vicious circle and why corners get cut. Top channel and great content ✊🏻
I always fit over size oval pipe no matter what.And it's easier if any alterations needs doing as you can pull the cable out and push a new cable down. great video 🙂
Tom, I love your passion for what you do, you are a credit to your trade. I also love your scenarios in your presentations. You should do some lecturing at colleges, you certainly would keep your audiences attention 👍
Take each installation on its individual merits, circumstance and nature of build. Thats the skill in being qualified and interpreting the application of the Regs accordingly. Toms losing the plot of late, crying over ring mains, crying over RCD's, and this Rumpole of the Bailey lark is cringe.
But Ring Final Circuits are a really bad thing. Only introduced to save copper in the 40's. If a line/neutral break occurs the cable will overheat before the MCB trips.
Couldn’t agree more, if it looks neat it’s normally wriht. I’m currently rewriting a property that was retired by a builder in 2000. Capping was the least of the customers worries in this case!
To be fair I 100% agree with the professional look to capping, but it does not offer mechanical protection and I believe it would hold in a court of law. If the regs are to be interpreted as you have then surely it would mean the use of metal conduit everywhere as capping offers no protection after the wall has been plastered. I mean capping can protect from a plasterers trowel and such, but a nail being hammered into a wall then no . The only other benefit in some cases is if you have a fault you can pull the cable through and rewire.
In this video (linked below - how I install back boxes in lathe and plaster walls) you’re not using capping or oval, so you’d better hope Betty isn’t wiping any walls down there! But in my opinion much worse is the fact that you’re not even following cable zones? You come up and got at a right angle to an accessory? You’re in no position to start name calling other electricians out, my friend, with shit workmanship like that, that could 100% end you in court. Always follow the zones. Not everyone knows they’re there, but you’re doing the best you can to at least put them in the right place. th-cam.com/video/UaSWNftCEc0/w-d-xo.html
Tom, probably not the best video to comment this on but have you seen the street lighting electrician R9YND on here? He seems a top guy from just watching his content like fairly thorough so when you are saying in your videos whether people know about street lighting for particular things perhaps reach out to him? He's scottish so things might be a bit different but he might be willing to help you out as he does seem really knowledgable in that field.
Could have saved you 15 minutes: 1. Capping is not mechanical protection 2. It cannot be earthed so is pointless. 3. You will never go to court for not installing capping.
@@dannyboisparky capping cannot be used for rewiring. If people want to assist in rewiring in the future then they should consider conduit drops, not capping. Capping is only to protect the cable from damage from the plasterer’s trowel. To be so unkind to electricians that don’t install capping in all circumstances and state they are ‘mediocre’ is pretty poor. Especially when Tom uses expanding foam to fix back boxes and conduit to the wall 🤔
@@neilbridgeman7768 conduit absolutely, yes. Capping is rather pointless but would still pick that over nothing. Yeah this video is rather strange when on his last couple of videos was a mix bag of cables chased in walls with all round band holding the cables back and drops with quite short conduit to points but then some were spot on with conduit between boxes
When we had building work done we chose on price, we learnt from our lessons and when we had all windows and doors replaced we went with reputation and not price, made no difference, regret not using our original builder..
Dear Tom, The only part of your argument that is correct (in my opinion) is the part which state it looks like better and nicer (it even does not fall under more professional), that's it, rest of it is just justification of the logic or reasoning that is not actually in the Blue Book. It is absolutely your preference and I respect that.
Thanks Thomas. A great resume of what is needed. Better to go that extra half mile and find you didn't need to go there, than to get there and find you missed the mark.
In NI we track our wall so our boxes are inset and our wire is ran in pvc conduit. if you ran twin and earth directly onto block here you wouldn't get another job again.
I was on a job about 6 months ago . Customer nailed a cable . Cables were buried straight in the render I had to chase the whole wall to replace the cable. On the same job ceiling fittings were hanging loose as they used red plugs straight in the plasterboard. One lighting circuit for the whole house and guess what they were in the NIC . The point I’m making is if someone can’t be bothered to use tube or capping chances are the rest of the job is is going to be shoddy
Really enjoying these "Nagy Knows" / "Top Tom Tips" / "Nagy Knowledge" videos. Any chance you could get them in a playlist as I'm not sure if I've missed any. So hard as someone who has recently passed their 18th edition to be able to retain all the information, but having someone talk through real world examples of where the regs come to life really helps. So, thanks!
The answer to Tom's La La Land wishful thinking is building inspectors who inspect the wiring installation at various stages of the installation to ensure the safety of the job...it isn't going to happen in the UK. This is a race to the bottom. How do you think Grenfell tower happened....govermnet deregulation killed people. Full stop. Sod the lawyers!! BTW Twin & Earth has basic insulation (each cable is insulated) plus supplementary insulation (the insulated conductors have a gray protective sheath(=)...surely. The capping provides additional supplementary insulation - probably not reinforced - so beyond BS7671. A prosecution lawyer would struggle to prove that the electrician hasn't taken account of that in their design....don't even mention RCD's or RCBO's as additional protection for the final circuits. What the fcuk are you asking for ....all the cable is to be SWA????!!! Or are you just trying to justify your West Hampstead prices because you want a villa on St Dominique with a fashion model girlfriend!!!....I know I do.
@@daxw2460 I would use it too. But I don't think it is a requirement of 18th Ed. To suggest you could get into legal difficulty if you didn't use it may be wrong. Fair enough it creates a better end result. But I'm not sure one would end up in court if one didn't use it. As Mr Nagy pointed out in his video, there were points where capping couldn't be used in one of his jobs for practical reasons....that didn't mean he was suddenly at risk of prosecution. He was relying on his 'skill & judgement' as per BS7671 to tell him when & if to use it. Most of his video was talking about creating a professional look....to impress the other trades. Nothing to do with safety of the electrical system IMO.
Capping protects cables from corrosive alkaline in cement when it's used to render walls which is not common these days but 30 years ago it was very common for walls to be plastered with sand and cement then skimmed . I've never regarded 2mm or less of plastic as mechanical protection .
Capping is crap. I wouldn't use it UNLESS the customer specifically asks for it. I always use conduit as I feel it gives better protection and (once plastered) if Betty Crocker wants an alteration it's easier to remove (ring circuit) and reroute. Capping just doesn't work. Zero protection from nails so why use it? At least plastic conduit "might" cause the nail to deviate. Capping won't even metal stuff.
Non of the regulations mentioned require capping. Perhaps it may provide protection from other trades while building work is in progress but under normal use it doesn't do anything
@@dxnpaniicz5663 not really. It requires needlessly butchering more of the wall and plaster doesn't stick to plastic very well either. All this for no benefit
@@Souped-up-Saiyan metallic capping is a fool proof way of ensuring no cable strikes are made from homeowners, doesn’t cost a lot, priced into job. Again regulation and good practice are separate things, stands you out from the rest, amount of compliments I’ve had from other trades when installing it that has led to more work is endless
what's that thing about going to war with the army you have, not the army you want? Same applies here. It would be great, fkn awesome if all pricing was for the same standard: working 'from' the regs, not 'to' them. But the reality is you can be as awesome a sparky as you want, sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring, while somebody else is out there getting it done. . . without having to include capping in the price that undercut you.
My property has metal stud frame walls, the cables just hang loose inside (UK property, 14 years old). I'm sure that isn't adequate protection - and the metal frame isn't earthed either. Also where the cables are unprotected in the loft (in both this and a previous property) I found at least one cable had been gashed to the copper, presumably by whoever was cutting the loft insulation. UK new builds... not great!
Pretty much disagree with everything said in this. Which is unusual for your videos. 1) firstly, and this is a big one. BS7671 isn't a legal document and can't be used as such in a court room. 2) sure capping looks nice but never seen plastic or metal capping / oval conduit stop a nail or screw. 3) everything is RCD protected now and youve done you're cable calcs, so you have done your bit to protect the installation. 4) clipping cables when done correctly look incredibly neat. 5) the only possible reasons to use mechanical protection would be for future rewiring purposes. In which case you're going in with 20mm tube. Even then, if you wanted to protect it fully you would be looking at galv tube so that a screw couldn't go through the plastic tube. Other than that...capping is pointless. As long as you don't have a heavy handed plasterer following you around.
Some really posh jobs in the old days had us use metal conduit with a bend into the joist run, these would be the wealthy house on Bishops avenue. But you had to enamel paint any scratches on the pipe or rush could show through
Capping is pointless, especially plastic. I work to a very very high standard but never install capping unless its a completely bare wall where the cables could get damaged before of during dot and dabbing. Even then you have to test your work before its been energised to confirm that hasn't happened. The regs required capping in the past when RCD protection wasn't around and also to protect from the lime in old plaster which used to burn into a cable over time. Plastic capping will not stop anyone putting a nail through a cable etc. Yes it looks good but thats as far as it goes. To add, in your last video you had one drop on your rewire with multiple cable and you said you just used cable banding as there are too many cables for capping!
14:00 If you decided to watch to the end of the video before you rant he clearly states that yes in some situations its not possible. But it shows a court or a regulator that you made an effort to be safe IF the situation arises that its necessary. Its a low cost relative to the cost of damages after being found guilty in a court room.
Exactly. There is also reasons why UK is one of the only countries I know of that does capping. It might look neater thatncables thrown in the wall, but cables neatly fixated into it look just as good, or sometimes even better. All it does from a safety standpoint, talking of plastic capping, is that the plaster doesn't make contact with the cable itself. And that is only safer if the cable is not made to be in contact with plaster. I don't know if Twin and Earth is. For anything else, like damage of cable, you will have to test your installation anyways before energizing.
@@TeamSimpsonRacing Fair enough. I am from germany and our normal cables for in or below plaster are PVC sheathed with PVC filler and PVC isolated wiring. Just didn't know what UKs standard cable was made out of. Furthermore, capping like that is not even sold here. Personally I don't see the point. As well as that regulations by EN/IEC/CENELEC or adjusted for germany DIN/VDE specifically specify that wiring like we use can be installed in or below plaster without consequences, of course as long as everything else is also up to code. You might know cables like NYY-J being used in the UK as replacement for Tuff Sheath, for example. That cable is standardized by us, for in house installation we use NYM-J. Its not as UV or *continuously submerged* water resistant, as well as not as hard as the NYY sheathing.
BAck in 1999-2000 when I was on work experience with a local spark, we always used capping on a new install and/or rewire as and when it was practical to do so. As for mechanical protection it isn;t going to stop DIY Bob coming along to put a shelf on the wall and drilling into it (I know, I've done it myself many years ago lol and so has my stepdad) However, it will protect it from the plasterer and their trowl.
Good ol' Betty Crocker. She's either tripping down a flight of stairs, or buying endless houses and having re-wires! 😂🤣
She's the one keeping the industry alive if anything!
You’d have thought she’d have told Schlep & Kovak to put the stairs lights on a different RCD by now 🙄
I wouldn't be her insurer, that's for certain.
Get well soon, Betty.
We fit oval tube as its faster and lower cost than clipping overall. Its not mechanical protection though. Flat twin and earth encased directly in plaster complies with all those regs you listed. All of them. The only small benefit from a safety point of view is agaisnt the plasters trowel. In narrow chases its a none issue.
I totally agree it looks a lot better from a clients points of view, can help with future rewiring and saves on grometts into back boxes.
But it is no more compliant than just clipping cable to a wall. Suggesting a spark is mediocre for not using capping is a bit harsh lol.
If we want to improve on twin and earth in a wall from a safety point of view would be via containment in earth metallic conduit or using swa. Is that a costs clients need to suffer when carefully clipped and tested cable offers the same service and less destruction to the building during installation? Maybe those writing the regs have thought this out.
Still overall I am with you. Capping/tube looks better and is quicker.
Each to their own, lift others higher.
I think naga is on thin ice here, he's certainly not john ward or photoinuction, wind your neck in ffs😂😂
My thoughts exactly, as long as its in the zone you can clip direct ? I mean if someone bangs a nail in where your cable is, its liable to go straight through the capping anyway, and the cost would fall on the builder
I'm still not buying in on the capping thing here. Cables already have mechanical protection. If it was used for protection then a nail would go right the plastic, so why not use metal conduit.
Reality often is if anything goes to court which is very rare, then 7671 pretty much gets pushed to one side.
I respect the angle Tom's taking but I don't agree tbh
It’s not easier when u get good at metal capping u can do it so quick and it looks so much better at the end of the day
@@Josh-bs3ey kinda what I said
Tom, I like your vids generally and as someone who also takes pride in his work, applaud the thrust of "a picture paints a thousand words" when some one looks at oval conduit in a neat chase... and that used to be my stance running cacles in concealed conduit. I think however you are misquoting the BBB to justify your argument.
I would be keen to see the design considerarations/calculations of having 2 or 3 (maybe more) T&E stuffed into conduit when it comes to the load CCC of the design. Cg etc and the difficulty for cables to dissapate heat in conduit compared to the heatsink of bonding. Now I don't have the books to hand to look up installation methods but I'm pretty certain it has to be considered as lowering the CCC.
The only reason to cover cables in a chased walll is so when the plasterer comes over to bond it in, they don't knick the cables with his trowel, exposing conductors. I've gone over to using British Gypsum OneCoat to secure cables in the wall before leaving it just below the plaster for the skim coat and takes me a few minutes. An IR test beforehand tells me if there is damage that might cause an issue to Betty Crocker with her wet sponge cleaning it off afterwards. The RCBO would save her receiving a shock from the damp plaster in any case. The plasterer can do the skim coat with no chance of me having to go back.
If Betty later decides she wants to hang a picture on the wall and hammers through my cables, the fact that they are heating up in oval conduit less that 50mm below the surface and protected by Kryptonite-like (NOT!) PVC conduit will not cause the nail to bounce off the capping/conduit, even metal capping: but will pierce it as though it wasn't there, the RCBO will then come into play..
The other consideration on an horizontal run, in zone say between sockets is the safety of the wall where you cannot chase any more than a sixth of the wall thickness to keep the integrity of the structure. If the wall is 100mm as internal wall oftern are, you are limiting the depth to 16.66mm.
I am a huge advocate of levelling up the industry but not necessarily here. I am happy to proved wrong though.
Exactly... Save the customer the extra work that capping requires and invest into the actual electrical protection devices such as RCBOs.
As a mechanical protection, its more to stop a plasterer catching a cable, i do it because it looks neat and more recently i've been doing kitchen, lounge switch drops in 20mm pvc conduit, the plus side i got a call from a previous client asking wether they could have the downlights in the kitchen on 2 switches.. bingo bango i was able to slip another t&e down the conduit split the circuit without damaging any of their new freshly decorated kitchen ... now im pricing for a friend of there's rewire ..
... theirs rewire.
@@denislostinlondon199 everyone check out this guy, he can correct people’s spelling. Omg he’s so cool
@@denislostinlondon199 I'm dyslexic and your reply makes me piss 😅
You're wrong. Nowhere in the regs does it specify a requirement for capping or tubing. It does specify RCD protection though for new installations and thats all you need at this moment in time in terms of protection against shocks for cables buried less than 50mm. If it was so important the regs would specify it for example in the presence of certain external conditions like damp in the fabric of the building. totally agree it looks better and if the customer was prepared to pay for it i would every time but thats not the way it goes unfortunately. Show me a single court case where a spark has been prosecuted for not fitting capping and someone died or just got a shock? to suggest a barrister would wrap you up like a kipper in court is laughable. stop it man
ur dim
@@GameLifts dim but efficient like a 8w led
I do wish to see a contractor to be found guilty of this then I’ll believe Thomas. Until then you are right sir
Ive just slapped a 2.5 at the wall for a tv socket, filled straight on top, I'm bricking it if council finds out 🤣
Exactly
Nope. BS7671 lists cables embedded direct in masonry without added mechanical protection as a legitimate installation method. You'll find it in table 4A2, on P389, number 57.
All capping does is protect cables from the plasterer's trowel during plastering. Necessary when solid wet plastering was common, as the trowel was likely to come into contact with the cable otherwise. It's not really needed now in the dot-n-dab age, or when chased into existing plaster, as the odds of the trowel hitting the cables is low. My plasterer has specifically asked me to omit it.
👏
Well done, Sir. Shame Mr Nagy didn't bother to make sure he actually knew what he was talking about before spouting rubbish on TH-cam. I always liked his videos, but I'm unsubscribed now. He's far too pretentious for me these days.
Fit an actual electrical system protection device and don't make customer pay for what is very expensive additional insulation on perfectly good electrical cabling...
Just run armoured everywhere - it's the only way to be sure...;-)
surely wireless is the way to go.....
How about using the actual electrical protection devices such as RCBOs and saving the customer an extra layer of plastic on their wires...
I think you guys have excellent arguments as to why a court wouldn't be able to find you guilty or negligent.
@@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers I would find him guilty, just for saying 'chicken dinners' :o)
You can still hammer a nail into armoured
Sorry, but this is just you ranting because you're fed up with competing against cheaper electricians Tom. Whilst I agree with you about the standards of work needing to be better, you can't use the courtroom to frighten people.
BS 7671 is a non statutory document that cannot be used in court. EAWR is statutory and does use BS 7671 as it's guide as is Part P, but I think you're really stretching things here. I started my electrical apprenticeship in 1988 and oval conduit was about three times thicker than it is now. Despite it's thickness, it still didn't offer any protection against a hammer and a nail. Today's oval and capping is so thin, you could push a nail through without a hammer so it only offers the protection that it was intended to and that is against sharp edges, such as the plasterer's trowel.
If you're being prosecuted for dangerous working practices, I very much doubt a barrister will be reading from BS 7671. There will be an expert witness in attendance, who themselves will be at least an electrician and they will be the ones reading scripture.
One other thing. It isn't good to call electricians mediocre for not using capping, you've overstepped the line there. I should add that I always fit oval conduit, but that's down to my own personal preference.
How does Betty Crocker get a shock from wiping a wall down?
😂😂😂 just what I was thinking
I disagree on the use of capping, unless it's specifically required in a location in BS7671.
Capping constantly cuts wires where the wire exits the capping, I used it all the time at the start, but realised that they will cause more issues than they prevent. They also restrict heat, you need 50% space free within capping for it to not be derate the CCC due to the fact that plastic prevents the loss of heat much more than plaster, you know this, but I haven't seen you account for that in your builds.
Btw I'm pretty sure you've seen examples of nails through galvanized steel capping... in fact, that's how many of the older guys fit it to the wall... by nailing it in... So how is plastic capping going to help against nails and screws when even galvanized steel can't?
Maybe I just think you shouldn't be throwing that term around... Mediocre electrician.... A mediocre electrician is one who likely installs the cheapest shit around but meets the guidelines, a great electrician installs the best of what they client needs, makes suggestions to futureproof their home or business, never installs a dual RCD board, and makes sure their wiring and install is perfect, and obviously meets BS7671 and often exceeding the requirements at every stage.
I personally take images of all the wiring (so they can retrospectively understand their wiring), and give those to customers with their EIC + EICR, (they get both with a board change let alone a rewire) and spend time carefully explaining to customers what prescribed zones are, and how they can use that method to determine where is safe and where is not to fit pictures, tv's etc. I've also just bought an IR camera which cost me an arm and a leg to look for hot spots in the wiring.
It's not a requirement, it looks better, (maybe if your wiring looks like shit) but it's actually worse for the home in the long run... Once Betty crocker has changed her sockets a couple of times, if you've poked your conduit through the back box you will be well through the insulation where the T&E meets the conduit.
It's also worth noting that you're bringing the cables closer to the surface by adding capping, or taking even more wall out for its installation, I'm sure betty crocker would like to keep the extra half centimetre in the wall you'd need to remove to install the capping.
I wanted to see your motives to install it, I approached the vid with an open mind, but you ignored any negatives associated to installing it, and there are issues.
The other thing is Tom, are bad electricians spending their time watching and learning from others on YT?
Your last point was the main point. If you walk into a takeaway, which I did, and see a oven being run off an extension lead, I know the refrigerators are full of out of date food. It's the same as checking out the toilets, before sitting down in a restaurant. Point: if a business is slacking in one area, they are likely slacking in all areas. The same reason why police pull you over if you have a light out, likelihood, they will find more. Food health and safety pretty much run off this no smoke without fire to give businesses a zero star, which is why paperwork, records and risk assessments are so important.
Not arguing that it shouldn't be done well, but the regs argument doesn't seem that convincing -
"...Withstand safely the stresses and environmental conditions...." in a normal domestic situation, how does a direct-buried cable in a wall not meet this requirement? What stresses and environmental conditions in a domestic situation does capping/conduit protect against ? You have two layers of PVC insulation to guard against any water-based issue. Probably the most plausible risk is a nail going through it, but if you accept that as a realistic situation, should you not be fitting (earthed) metal capping, as a nail would easily go through plastic?
Wondering what danger or fault situations have people seen with an un-capped/enclosed cable chased into a wall , which would have been prevented by capping/conduit?
You're considering the presence of capping solely as a safety measure to the end user. I've always considered capping as the protective measure for cable against the plasterers trowel and the long term erosion caused by plaster itself.
I agree, I think it should as good workmanship have capping, but those regs I would say make reference to not putting twin and earth outdoors or buried underground. Capping is there to protect the cables when plastering... I have seen plasterers rip capping off as the plaster does not stick to it very well.. I agree if you were that worried you would put it with metal earthed conduit or capping, or run SWA in walls..
Interesting in other countries they dont have prescribed zones as they argue, why bother you have an RCD, There must have been multiple failings for something to have happened as all new wiring should be RCD protected. We dont fit capping or any other kind or protection in stud walls.. Again I am not saying its not the correct thing to do but the regs are so wooley I would be surprised if any sparks would get convicted on that basis as a decent defence barrister would just shred that regulation to bits..
Would love to raise the bar on every job but we all know most domestic installations people just want it to work and as cheap as possible. If its the option between a split load board or keep the old rewireable board with no RCD protection because they cant afford a full RCBO board.. What is better?
Does plaster contain any ingredients that may breakdown the cable sheathing?
Totally agree. Conduit isn't stopping my hammer and nail!?! If a quote was more because it had conduit, I'd go for the other guys
@@johnadams1976 thats not the point of the capping, it is there purely to stop the plasterer damaging the cable when filling in the chases, putting cables in zones and additional RCD protection is put in place to stop you getting injured by hammering a nail. It should be fitted as standard..
Firstly, your videos 5 or 6 years ago when I first set my business up inspired me to want to improve my work and knowledge every day, I learned a lot, very quickly from you and it is important to let you know I appreciate it.
That being said, capping unless it is galvanised steel conduit for instance, does not meet the requirements for mechanical protection. If you were to wire outside the zones for example, simply fitting capping would not comply however installing steel conduit would.
By the way I use capping on every installation so I do also agree with you that we should all be fitting it.
I also and agree with your perspective on doing things over and above. I was once taught the regulations should be complied to as a minimum standard. Keep up the good work and I will keep watching your content.
Unless the lack of capping was a contributory factor to an incident it shouldn't be a factor in any legal action - any half-decent defence should make that point.
The prosecution will destroy you in it and will make the money grab argument and the dead granny argument and no matter how good ur defence is ur snookered
Yeah I think you could argue that the cable was damaged by the plasterer, now would capping have stopped that.. Probably, but Ive seen plasters rip capping off cause the plaster wont stick to it as easy of there is no guarantee a bit of plastic will protect the cable. I think you could make a good defence that it was the plasters shoddy workmanship and him that caused the fault.. Again I always fit capping and think you should, but I dont think it would be as clear cut in a court.. I think any defence barrister would simply say where does it say in the regs that capping is required when burying cable in walls? Its not in there, case closed... Should it be in there, yeah probably... But its not specifically stated, its another example of the regs book being wishy washy and open to interpretation..
@@Sierraomega1991 Spoken by someone who clearly knows nothing about the law or legal process. It really is hilarious when non-lawyers try to talk authoritatively about law. Causation is a critical part of any tortious or contractual claim and the burden of proof is on the claimant. If the lack of capping did not cause the injury, it is irrelevant to the matter of liability. It really isn't that difficult to understand.
I agree. At 10:15 when he was acting like there wasn't an answer... There's no regs that say you need it. It's not the reason this person died. If someone was to bang a screw in it the. Plastic cappings not gonna do anything. And also affordability in my opinion is also a good reason. This persons electrics wasn't safe and they could only just afford a rewire without capping.
Mike makes the correct point that we all engage representation for ourselves in court and issues are rarely ever clear cut.
So, why don't the regulations spell it out? "Wherever practical, cable shall not be buried in plaster without additional mechanical protection conforming to BS whatever". If the regulations don't spell it out, they are sh!t.
This is why we run all our cables in "tubes". Good protection and you can replace the cable should it get damaged. But thats with 3 loose wires in the pipe. Easy to drag in a new pair :D
Often you don’t have the depth you need for a tube.
A few years back, I skimmed our kitchen. I put my hand on the wet plaster to see if it was ready to trowel off and got chucked backwards across the room. After a little bit of investigation, when they nailed up the galv capping, they'd nailed through the cable too. The wall was presumably dry enough for this to not be noticed until someone chucked wet plaster over it. Couldn't pull the damaged cable out as it had been nailed in place, so had to hack my nice new plaster off the wall 🤣
You could have waited for it to dry ... 🤔
230v chucked you across the room.lol
@dvrn86 yes it does happen
@@dvrn86 , yes a shock of 230V will chuck you across a room very effectively …
@@andyxox4168 how? The shock makes you jump? What force from a shock could throw you across a room. (Electrician, shocked countless times, know many electricians that have been shocked many times. Only diy and homeowners tell us their thrown across the room stories) 🤷♂️
agreed it looks much better but as far as regs go your argument for it being legal seems a bit off. I've been called to faults where metal capping has been penetrated with a tiny picture nail leaving a N-E fault. To reveal the cable in the wall was a right nightmare. I don't think capping offers any protection whatsoever it just looks better. Sorry can't see a barrister arguing it should be installed because it looks better.
Yeah - how about actually use the electrical system protection devices such as RCBOs instead of making the customer pay for capping which does not much more than add an extra layer of plastic for wires you could've probably already bought with thicker insulation that outperforms typical capping...
3 advantages to capping 1 is that it offers protection between first and second fix, 2 is when it’s plastered it has a hollow sound behind the plaster so easily identified and 3 there’s like a 10% chance you’ll get another cable down it
Heat dissipation too.
I disagree with having to install capping or that if you don't you're a mediocre spark. Capping does not provide mechanical protection in any way. I believe it's was an old wife's tail that metal capping would stop people from putting nails through cables which it doesn't and the way I see it, in today's world is it is there to prevent plasterers from nicking/hitting a cable with their trowel. It's not there to protect the cables from normal operation. The chases you did on the last job with the metabo are neat and small, any competent plaster should be able to put a bonding coat in without striking a cable. And if we really want to play by the blue book, you shouldn't be energising cables that are still to be plastered because there is more chance of wet plaster being applied round live sockets causing death than betty crocker washing a wall with a wet sponge in my opinion. Great content as usual, keep it up!
Capping is only used to protect the cable from the plasterers trowel, installing in conduit de-rates the cable. I personally have always used plastic capping in void properties. In occupied properties definitely not. Also you have to be careful how deep your cutting chases, you could actually make the wall unstable.
Very valid point about how deep your chases are!
Especially flats.. you can actually weaken the walls to the point of severe collapse when it’s poured concrete etc..
“Vertical chases should be no deeper than one third of the wall thickness - with standard 100mm bricks and blocks, that going to be 33mm, which is quite deep anyway - that’s not allowing for any plaster coating which could be 10mm so the maximum depth then works out at 36mm from the front face of the plaster.’
i like this pov. toms after 5 socket drops per room plus two way and inermediate switches in the living rm!! i think that metabo chaser has taken over his mind like the borg
@@CraigJFW actually did a rewire like that for someone once. Even the kids bedrooms had two way switches by the beds, 5 double sockets, 6 downlights, and a double RJ45 in each room, they had four kids! 😂
Just from my laymans point of view: electrical cabling is already covered by plastic.. what additional protection is the additional layer of plastic going to help with? How about save the extra work for the customer and put it in to the safety that the RCBOs provide.
Naturally fit metal capping if somewhere in the house there is actual chance for the wires getting under stress.
For me it's all about protecting the cables during installation as I don't think capping offers any protection forward from that point.
We have a company rule, capping used when in contact with direct plaster, like chases but anything else, dot and dab where sharp tools won't be used during installation I don't feel it is necessary
Who is an electrician and has seen problems, especially when fitting new RCD boards, and you find a fault, you eventually find the fault and its a nail to hold in the capping that has clipped the cable? I agree though that it should be fitted, I really like fitting pvc flexicon glanded into the back box, will make any future rewire a breeze as the cables can be pulled up and down..
I agree with you, but glanding into a galv back box seems a bit excessive (though carry on if it makes you happy). A quicker alternative is to simply push some oval tubing through the box knockout so it just enters the box - the tube acts as a grommit, protecting the cable from the metal edge, and it allows for ease of rewiring, as you mention.
Might as well use singles then, like they do on the continent.
@@markrainford1219 but then you'll have to tube in the floor voids also, whereas using T&E means you don't have to.
@@johnhoward2104 Exactly.
@@johnhoward2104 I haven't done many if any identical like for like rewires
Thought the regs where non statutory and are there just as a guide
As a tradesperson, your work IS your reputation. Cheers Tom, from Arizona USA
In Northern Ireland 20mm conduit used 98% of the time on every job. Oval is useless as can't get much down them and if told someone you were using capping, they'd laugh you off the site. Also when doing upstairs you can rewire or add to cabling from attic.
Controversial Tom but its your opinion and I respect that.
Capping offers no protection at all for nails or drill bits, its not earthed and you'll never end up in a court for not fitting it.
I always use capping as it makes the install so much neater with a couple of pieces of all round band rather than clipping cables direct.
You never know what goes on onsite between first and second fix so offering just that extra piece of protection is always a must for me.
Personally,
I was always taught that anything in a building where wall-chasing happens or fitting cabling behind false walls, you always use medium density electrical conduit to afford mechanical protection to the wiring you install.
You do this from the fittings up to roof space height.
It comes down to Workmanship and the safety of what you install, sure you can't stop anyone down the track drilling through your conduit, but it just gives your wiring a lot better protection.
Thanks for bringing this up, Tom.
Good points - but isn’t sheath mechanical protection on T&E? Also is a plastic capping going to stop a screw, drill or nail gun?
The only way to prevent this is to pipe It up in earthed galvanised galv. 🤷🏼 How far do you go?
I see you not having a defence if you placed singles directly into the wall, but not with a T&E….
I had an instance where a plasterer ripped all of mine out after fitting it on a rewire years ago…
The new wiring is insulation tested, should read 500M at 500v how will anyone get shock? the metal and plastic capping offers very little mechanical protection , I agree better to install as gives some protection against other tradesmen damaging the cables.
This is why RCD protection is used in case cables are damaged by occupants
Thomas likes metal capping, some kitchen fitter comes in after, sticks a screw through the capping and live conductor... Remember the capping is not earthed, old Betty washes the wall, gets a shock.... Mr Nagy was your choice to fit metal capping not earthed a contributing factor? You could rattle off all those same regs and argue it would be case closed..
@@steve11211 Very good point, its also an absolute ball ache repairing cables that are behind cappings that have been damaged by nails or drill bits. Repairing an upcapped cable is much easier.
Save the customer the work of adding an extra layer of insulation for cabling which you could've probably bough with thicker insulation from the get-go and instead fit the goddamn RCBOs which are the actual protection devices.
@AL Hughes got to disagree , much easier to repair with capping installed
I always use ovel conduit, if a damaged cable needs replacing, it's alot easier to pull another through, with capping, it's not so easy, and cable plastered in the wall is a bodge, and looks shit, in my opinion, anyway.
Cable drops in plastic conduiit of any shape, round or oval, are afforded no extra mechanical or electrical protection, but look professional. The obvious very good reason for conduit installation is to provide, in the event of any subsequent damage to the cables from for example careless picture hanging, a possible way to rewire wire the drop without decorative damage. I notice in some of your videos that the enclosed plastic conduit drops you install stop some inches short of the back boxes. These installations therefore provide no extra mechanical or electrical protection neither can any damaged drop be easily replaced without decorative damage?
Much prefer metal capping. Can’t see the point in plastic. Great video 👍👍
Whats the point in metal capping?
Hi Thomas. Whilst I completely agree with you on your views regarding capping or any other form of mechanical protection I must state.: - BS7671 is not LAW they are recommendations which if fo;llowed will comply with the Electricity at work regs 1989 and Electricity at work act 1974. Surely a Barrister would be using one of the two publications which apply and are MANDATORY requirements for all Electrical work. This is by no means a criticism Thomas just pointing out my view.
Capping ensures the cables are in the chases neatly and prevents any damage when the wall is being finished or plastering. As for mechanical protection both plastic and metal offer none whatsoever they are so thin. If your in a situation where fitting capping is not possible such as a wall with very thin depth or just a small chase its not worth it
Sami Khamis - I'd say & know installed conduct rather than capping is more professional thinking. You've cut the chase anyhow but you don't need to cut as much out so save time & making good is much quicker...... capping is a stop gap measure, nice to see some even pvc conduct install work glued & fixed with male or female end points making pulling through the cable so simple.
13 seconds in Tom and personally I think conduit/pipe is better over capping. The cable is safer, if you use galv you can easily find it, and rewiring is a doddle with conduit/pipe.
It is better, but much more work
Yup, the Barrister is going to ask "will plastic capping withstand a nail for hanging a picture - if not, why didn't you use metal?"
@@JezCunningham I think the legal arguments are a bit far fetched to be honest, no ones ever been in court for this
@@londontrada I don't know mate, there are thousands of cases accross the uk every day most no one ever knows about. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Jesus companies have been in court because employees have dumb and nor followed rules and its the companies fault.
@@stuartcraigon2003 No, If someone had been prosecuted for using plastic capping it would cause a change in the industry. The regs are not even a statuary document.
I think your whole legal argument could be argued against pretty easy. I install cables to their required zones. If somebody was to stick a pin in the wall to hang a picture then it would be their fault. Capping wouldnt do shit to protect the cable anyway.
I do fit capping, but for no reason due to BS7671 as my interpretation of it is that you don't need capping.
I fit capping because of your first points - its neat and tidy and leaves an impression. I also fit capping for plasteres.
Plastic capping offers no protection against nails or such so. Unless your fitting metal conduit throughout your example kinda falls through
Didn't we originally fit it to keep the plaster off the cable because it destroyed the insulation? The protection it offers is minimal to none. It is useless when it comes to nails and drills and only really has a job to do when the plasterer is in. Granny can still be electrocuted when wiping the walls down with capping fitted if the cable is faulty.
The arguement to fit it should primarily be a technical one and nothing else. It looks to me like it has become a tradition rather than a technical neccesity. FYI, I fitted it when building my extension because after talking to manufacturers, electricians and someone at the institute where they write those regulations, not a single person could definitively give me a yes or no to the question "do I have to fit it".
ahhh i just commented on this then I seen your post. YES we did VIR's and lime in plaster that was why we originally did it
"Withstand safely the stresses and environmental conditions". When you consider that the most likely time that a cable buried in the wall will be damaged is when someone puts a nail through it when hanging a picture, or drilling through it when putting up a shelf. Plastic capping does nothing to stop that happening - it happens all the time. The thin steel capping is nearly as bad, offers next to no protection against a hammer and nail. Sorry, but if you want to do it where it will be protected against the most common types of damage, you really need to put it in round steel conduit. Lets face it, a cable buried in a wall is perfectly safe until someone puts a nail through it, or drills through it. Plastic capping will not prevent that. What plastic capping does help to prevent is the heavy handed plasterer sticking his trowel through the cable. And of course using capping could well make the next rewire easier, plus it looks so much more professional. But for protection - nope, next to useless.
Also to add to that the whole cable zone arguement as well as RCD protection is a massive bit of protection for you in that kind of scenario
"Why didn't you install capping or conduit"
"Why should it be needed the cable wasn't under any risk of damage had it not had a nail driven through it, also the cables were installed in the correct cable zones according to BS7671 so nothing should've been fixed there in the first place and RCDs/RCBOs were installed in order to protect the person in the event they decided to drive a nail through a cable"
@@joefrayling9263 are you for real! Zones! Had it not had a nail driven through it!
You do know that no normal person knows or gives a shit about zones!
As for RCD etc I've seen brand new out of the box units fail to operate, how many people religiously get their fixed wiring regularly inspected, just because they are fitted doesn't mean they will operate.
You've obviously not tried putting a nail into capping because it's bloody obvious the substrate has changed and something isn't right!
@@stuartcraigon2003 no I havnt put a nail through capping in a long time because I'm not a moron and I stopped using it in favour of oval tube a long time ago.
Also yes they fail (were talking rewire new install here btw I feel like that needs to be said) but that is why we test them to ensure that they are working properly if they are not working properly after just being installed and they are left there then that spark is a twat and shouldn't be anywhere near electrics.
It doesn't matter wether or not everyone knows about them (cable zones) the fact is they exist and they exist for a reason and that is to protect our ass when some dinlow puts a nail through a cable if they were in the right cable zone then there is no reason someone couldn't have got informed on how cables are installed and where prior to banging nails in the wall left and right.
And yes had a nail not Been steamed Into the cable that was installed in a zone invented to try and mitigate exactly that and that was also protected by a properly tested and working RCD/RCBO the cable would've been fine and free from damage in that environment for the foreseeable future thus not requiring any further mechanical protection (of which capping offers next to fuck all) but because some divvy couldn't be bothered to spend 5 minutes learning about where cables might be they did in fact drive a nail into it.
RCDs were invented to protect people using the electricity cable zones were invented to protect electricians from getting collard by people who are dimp enough to bang a nail through a wall in the general vicinity of an electrical accessory, it puts the blame back on whoever nailed the cable as opposed to whoever installed the cable
@@stuartcraigon2003 also just to back myself up about being to lazy to learn I typed into Google literally just now "where are cables likely to be in my house" and the very first thing that came up was a GSH video about "the prescribed zones for wiring cables on walls" try it yourself not even 5 minutes to learn less than 10 seconds.
"I didn't know" isn't a valid excuse for anything in this day and age where Information is so readily accessible
"Mechanical Protection" hm... that plastic conduit isn't going to save Betty Crocker's nephew when he nails the ducks to the wall... but the RCD might.
I use oval for speed and neatness. I am on the understanding that the plaster can affect the insulation? Deterioration over time?
Clipping direct if one chooses to do so, would be done in prescribed zones so compliant 🤷♂️
Thank you I live in New Zealand and we have the same problem here, everyone is in a race to the bottom. Let’s do it better for the customer and for our own pride
Unfortunately our global economy has been suffering so long that cutting corners is the only way some tradesmen can keep their heads above water.
Its an interesting subject but I doubt not having capping installed would win a court case provided everything was done correctly, the capping thing is open to interpretation it's an engineering judgement situation.
In your example old Betty carking it because a cable was damaged and she washed the wall the 2 people at fault would be the plasterer and the sparks the plasterer for damaging the cable and not alerting anyone and the spark for not carrying out proper testing of the installation because that damage capping or not would show up when you do you tests.
Would it have been damaged if capping was present, probably but that still doesn't negate the fact that the tests weren't properly carried out so I doubt it would hold much weight.
The other arguement would be an external factor the old nail through a cable that we've all seen in this scenario capping wouldn't have prevented the damage but if presented with that the counter to it would be cables installed in the correct zones and RCD protection if they are done as per the regs then the capping argument would be null and void since the whole point of cable zones and RCD protection is to stop people putting nails through cables and the stop them being fried if they still do
"An Old Duffer" - are you flirting with me again Thomas? 😍
Forgive me for asking, however, as I am in the US, how is plastic capping any good for wire protection in brick/concrete walls? If there is a drill or nail, going though concrete, not sure that a thin plastic capping would save the wire from that? Shouldn't it be steel capping to provide protection against nails / drilling etc? Keep up the good work sir! 👍
Even metal capping wont stop a nail,, and then it’s proper pain to repair cable
Even steel capping won't protect against a hammer and nail or drilling.
It used to be all galv steel capping here too, but plastic is cheaper & easier to work with. I agree it's crazy, you may as well not use it.
its not, it was originally intended to protect cables from the plastering. ive found a few over the years kitchen fitters going straight through it fitting cupboards and just turning the tripped circuit back on, if it stays on!
Tomas, you are right, I am an electrician in Norway and here the cable that you use for installations is illegal according to the law and rules to be used without a channel, pipes because the cable does not have double insulation to grounding. Here it is a cable type PR 2x2.5 +2.5 we can use this cable in open installations where inspection is possible. For installations that are covered and hidden, a double-insulated cable or a corrector tube with conductors is always used, here are examples of PFXP cables or TECON
Sorry Tom, I have to disagree with you on this one.
The most likely cause of damage to any cable in a domestic wall is Betty knocking a nail through it when she's putting up her grandchild's graduation photo. Plastic capping will offer no additional protection whatsoever to the cables from that.
Mr Lawyer might well ask in that case why did you charge Mrs Crocker extra for capping which offers no extra protection when, if that was your aim, there are other solutions available to you specifically designed to achieve that end.
Indeed, a lay-person seeing capping may well think it is there to offer protection. The home--owner may, as a consequence be less careful about their nailing, in the mistaken belief that if they do hit the capping, it will protect the cable (and them). Wrong, it won't!
Plastic capping doesn't give any protection whatsoever from drills or nails being hammered in to a cable.
As long as cables are in the correct zones, ie straight up and down where there is an outlet l can't see the problem with direct clipping.
More effort should be made to make sure correct RCD,RCBO and MCB are in place and fit for purpose.
Exactly this
Well I am from the other side of the pond and yes our construction techniques are different but when it comes down to it you got to protect your product AKA The wire and if you are a plumber the pipe capping nail plates hardened sleeves whatever it takes when your names involved you don't want that call you up the good work
From Australia, your content in terms of business and how to set up and work towards growth has driven me to take the next step and invest alot into my electrical business. one can never forecast the future but I'm confident in my own ability to succeed. Thank u for the extra motivation.
Mr Nagy, Thank you for advertising our company. Mrs Crocker is very good customer. She has lot of work from us, we do electric, gas, tiling, plumbing, plastering and she is very happy. You do not need to concern with her falling down stairs - we fitted S&K stair lift 3000™ for her last week, she now very good on the stairs. We will in future use cap you mentione when doing electricity work - I have purchase baseball caps for my employee to wear when doing electricity - they will wear this instead of cowboy hat - we save these for gas works.
Been in the high court due to a health and safety accident believe me you never ever want to be in that situation the company had done nothing wrong but still an awful thing to go through it was lucky the company followed all health and safety training and had all proper procedures in place it would have ended badly if they hadn't
It's bad enough that the company gets that kind of publicity, whether or not they're vindicated isn't going to matter to a lot of potential customers.
Firstly TN is a youtube legend BUT I can't believe he let Artisan get to 100K first :) RE: This video, the blue book is non-statutory and clipping direct is ok if all other regs are abided by. Yes it looks better and I agree with Mark The Spark, oval conduit actually saves time and therefore money and does look better. Capping is a must on block walls that will be bonded out or even dot'n'dabbed to protect against the plasterers trowel, but if you are doing a standard rewire that damage if very very unlikely, again though, I agree it does look better and does set you apart from those who don't bother, but you can't really throw the regs at it.
Sorry completely disagree with you on capping. ALL it does is give some protection from plaster's trowels. It gives bugger all mechanical protection once buried and those who use metal capping never earth it so potentially creating more of a hazard. Omitting capping doesn't save time as often it's ballache to get cable clips to stay in the walls depending on the type of masonry. Far better to fit conduit, whether that be oval or round and if you want to achieve mechanical protection then do metal conduit (unless that's too much effort?). That way you can easily rewire in future without opening up existing chases.
Spot on, this video is utter bollocks from start to finish.
@@CoulterTravel What happened to street lighting and commercial work supplanting domestic house bashing I thought that was consigned to the past? My guess is he baulked at the low rates subbing to a subcontractor subbing to the main contractor.................crumbs from the table.
in Malta we all still pass all cables through conduit...and it makes sense if you want to pull another cable on a future date
I can see the point your making, it dose make you look more professional, but installing plastic capping or oval conduit. Dose not provide much much protection, we have all been there installing practice capping and it cracks or brakes. Would you go back to installing earthed metal conduit ?
As electricians we all know that capping does not offer mechanical protection against a nail or screw but does offer protection against the plasterers trowel.
On rewires, where narrow chases have been made, the plasterers trowel will cover the width of the chase, therefore it is unlikely the plasterers trowel will damage the cable. Similarly, where dot and dab is used, there is no risk from the plasterers trowel.
However, I do agree that by installing capping, whether on a rewire, dot and dab walls or walls that are being directly plastered, it is perceived as being better.
Many years ago, I was working on a project, where metal capping had been installed. There was a fault with one of the slave telephone points. A BT engineer came out and said that the he suspected that one of the cables had become damaged, perhaps by the plaster. I explained that metal capping had been installed to provide protection against the plasterer and he told the client that we were wrong to have installed metal capping as this could have damaged the cable during installation 🤷♂️and could have caused damp to penetrate the cable. I couldn’t believe my ears.
The client complained to the builder who we were working for and to appease the client we ran in a new telephone cable.
Mate, I came across a similar problem few years ago. That BT Engineer was right.
Since then I never use capping at all. If anything I’m chasing the wall deep enough (as long as the wall allows) to be impossible to be damaged by other trades (plasterer).
Not even metal conduit will give you protection from drill bits.
Your right about the regs, there was a case of a guy, came home pissed, put the landing light on, bulb blew, he decided it was a good idea to stand on a chair, hanging over the stairs, in the dark, and change the bulb, he fell, and sued the council and won, because some switched on lawyer found a reg that the light position didn't comply with the regs, I think he got around £100k. It happened in flint North Wales.
And I recently used this example with a customer, who wanted me to fit a light over the stairs where he couldn't reach, I refused to do it, he understood after reading the story.
Id say it takes longer to clip than put capping/conduit in...
Capping gives protection from the plaster's trowel. It is vey easy to nick the cable. I notice that Tom does not bury his capping deep enough to allow a decent depth of plaster, so to avoid cracking, I can see why plasters would remove it.
🤔 The trowel used for either the base coat or render is normally a plastic float and definitely not capable of damage to a cable ! The metal float is only used for the skimmed top coat .
I've only been in the Industry 35 years, so what would I know 🙄🙄
I always use conduit and use metal strapping to hold it in place , no need for grommets and can pull wires in and out after
Why no need for grommets ??
@@ryaneasterlow8247 if the end of the conduit passes through the hole in the backbox, this protects the cable from abrasion
The round conduit goes straight into the metal back box
I totally agree much prefer to use conduit for all the reasons express.
I am not at electrician by trade, but the frasing in the regulation book sounds weird. You have a regulation that states that you need to evaluate if you instalation has proper mechanical protection the question is to what extent?Proper mechanical protection if someone is pressure washing their walls, if someones water piper burst,... there are a million possible coincidents that cant happen and you can interpret those regulations in many ways. Its just weird to me.
Most safety regs are vague like this, often stating you must do what is "reasonably practicable".... it is up to you to try to decipher what that is. Tom's approach was what I was taught - imagine yourself in the dock explaining why you did (or didn't) do something. If (in this case) the regs clearly stated that cable run in plaster must be (or doesn't need to be) capped, it would be so much easier!
Like you videos. In Denmark where i come from, we never use capping. Some times, we put the conduit in the wall for easy replacement, but never for protecting the cable.
Same problem in Gas Industry you could do everything to regs and to the letter, but gas safe and courts would still find something you " should have done" plus lots of clients want Rolls Royce Jobs for Mini money. Such a Vicious circle and why corners get cut.
Top channel and great content ✊🏻
I always fit over size oval pipe no matter what.And it's easier if any alterations needs doing as you can pull the cable out and push a new cable down. great video 🙂
Tom, I love your passion for what you do, you are a credit to your trade. I also love your scenarios in your presentations. You should do some lecturing at colleges, you certainly would keep your audiences attention 👍
Take each installation on its individual merits, circumstance and nature of build. Thats the skill in being qualified and interpreting the application of the Regs accordingly. Toms losing the plot of late, crying over ring mains, crying over RCD's, and this Rumpole of the Bailey lark is cringe.
But Ring Final Circuits are a really bad thing. Only introduced to save copper in the 40's. If a line/neutral break occurs the cable will overheat before the MCB trips.
Couldn’t agree more, if it looks neat it’s normally wriht. I’m currently rewriting a property that was retired by a builder in 2000. Capping was the least of the customers worries in this case!
To be fair I 100% agree with the professional look to capping, but it does not offer mechanical protection and I believe it would hold in a court of law. If the regs are to be interpreted as you have then surely it would mean the use of metal conduit everywhere as capping offers no protection after the wall has been plastered. I mean capping can protect from a plasterers trowel and such, but a nail being hammered into a wall then no . The only other benefit in some cases is if you have a fault you can pull the cable through and rewire.
I remember being told many many years ago that capping offered protection from chemical dryers used in some plaster....
In this video (linked below - how I install back boxes in lathe and plaster walls) you’re not using capping or oval, so you’d better hope Betty isn’t wiping any walls down there!
But in my opinion much worse is the fact that you’re not even following cable zones? You come up and got at a right angle to an accessory?
You’re in no position to start name calling other electricians out, my friend, with shit workmanship like that, that could 100% end you in court. Always follow the zones. Not everyone knows they’re there, but you’re doing the best you can to at least put them in the right place.
th-cam.com/video/UaSWNftCEc0/w-d-xo.html
Tom, probably not the best video to comment this on but have you seen the street lighting electrician R9YND on here? He seems a top guy from just watching his content like fairly thorough so when you are saying in your videos whether people know about street lighting for particular things perhaps reach out to him? He's scottish so things might be a bit different but he might be willing to help you out as he does seem really knowledgable in that field.
Could have saved you 15 minutes:
1. Capping is not mechanical protection
2. It cannot be earthed so is pointless.
3. You will never go to court for not installing capping.
Still 💩practice for the majority. Industry standard nowadays of not giving a flying f for the next person
@@dannyboisparky capping cannot be used for rewiring. If people want to assist in rewiring in the future then they should consider conduit drops, not capping. Capping is only to protect the cable from damage from the plasterer’s trowel.
To be so unkind to electricians that don’t install capping in all circumstances and state they are ‘mediocre’ is pretty poor. Especially when Tom uses expanding foam to fix back boxes and conduit to the wall 🤔
@@neilbridgeman7768 conduit absolutely, yes. Capping is rather pointless but would still pick that over nothing.
Yeah this video is rather strange when on his last couple of videos was a mix bag of cables chased in walls with all round band holding the cables back and drops with quite short conduit to points but then some were spot on with conduit between boxes
Have all of your installs in your electrical career had capping ? Just asking the question.
Completely agree with you Tom, I always use oval capping and a first fix looks so much better and neater
When we had building work done we chose on price, we learnt from our lessons and when we had all windows and doors replaced we went with reputation and not price, made no difference, regret not using our original builder..
Dear Tom, The only part of your argument that is correct (in my opinion) is the part which state it looks like better and nicer (it even does not fall under more professional), that's it, rest of it is just justification of the logic or reasoning that is not actually in the Blue Book. It is absolutely your preference and I respect that.
I’m sure they can’t use the regs book in a court as it’s a non statuary regulation
The main point is... Document, for the customer, exactly what you have done and why. Always CYA.
Thanks Thomas. A great resume of what is needed. Better to go that extra half mile and find you didn't need to go there, than to get there and find you missed the mark.
In NI we track our wall so our boxes are inset and our wire is ran in pvc conduit. if you ran twin and earth directly onto block here you wouldn't get another job again.
I was on a job about 6 months ago . Customer nailed a cable . Cables were buried straight in the render I had to chase the whole wall to replace the cable. On the same job ceiling fittings were hanging loose as they used red plugs straight in the plasterboard. One lighting circuit for the whole house and guess what they were in the NIC . The point I’m making is if someone can’t be bothered to use tube or capping chances are the rest of the job is is going to be shoddy
6:33 "Dicky heart, she pops her clogs, the old duffer!" love it.....
Thomas Malory Nagy - whenever I see you post a video, my bell goes ding-a-ling-a-ling.
Really enjoying these "Nagy Knows" / "Top Tom Tips" / "Nagy Knowledge" videos. Any chance you could get them in a playlist as I'm not sure if I've missed any. So hard as someone who has recently passed their 18th edition to be able to retain all the information, but having someone talk through real world examples of where the regs come to life really helps. So, thanks!
The answer to Tom's La La Land wishful thinking is building inspectors who inspect the wiring installation at various stages of the installation to ensure the safety of the job...it isn't going to happen in the UK. This is a race to the bottom. How do you think Grenfell tower happened....govermnet deregulation killed people. Full stop. Sod the lawyers!!
BTW Twin & Earth has basic insulation (each cable is insulated) plus supplementary insulation (the insulated conductors have a gray protective sheath(=)...surely. The capping provides additional supplementary insulation - probably not reinforced - so beyond BS7671. A prosecution lawyer would struggle to prove that the electrician hasn't taken account of that in their design....don't even mention RCD's or RCBO's as additional protection for the final circuits. What the fcuk are you asking for ....all the cable is to be SWA????!!!
Or are you just trying to justify your West Hampstead prices because you want a villa on St Dominique with a fashion model girlfriend!!!....I know I do.
No fair mate. He's just saying as we get thought in the college's.
@@daxw2460 I would use it too. But I don't think it is a requirement of 18th Ed. To suggest you could get into legal difficulty if you didn't use it may be wrong.
Fair enough it creates a better end result. But I'm not sure one would end up in court if one didn't use it.
As Mr Nagy pointed out in his video, there were points where capping couldn't be used in one of his jobs for practical reasons....that didn't mean he was suddenly at risk of prosecution. He was relying on his 'skill & judgement' as per BS7671 to tell him when & if to use it.
Most of his video was talking about creating a professional look....to impress the other trades. Nothing to do with safety of the electrical system IMO.
Capping protects cables from corrosive alkaline in cement when it's used to render walls which is not common these days but 30 years ago it was very common for walls to be plastered with sand and cement then skimmed . I've never regarded 2mm or less of plastic as mechanical protection .
Capping is crap. I wouldn't use it UNLESS the customer specifically asks for it. I always use conduit as I feel it gives better protection and (once plastered) if Betty Crocker wants an alteration it's easier to remove (ring circuit) and reroute. Capping just doesn't work. Zero protection from nails so why use it? At least plastic conduit "might" cause the nail to deviate. Capping won't even metal stuff.
Plastic oval or capping is of no use against penetration metal capping is the best but I've never seen you use it
Non of the regulations mentioned require capping. Perhaps it may provide protection from other trades while building work is in progress but under normal use it doesn't do anything
Regulation and good practice/pride in your work are separate things
@@dxnpaniicz5663 not really. It requires needlessly butchering more of the wall and plaster doesn't stick to plastic very well either. All this for no benefit
@@Souped-up-Saiyan metallic capping is a fool proof way of ensuring no cable strikes are made from homeowners, doesn’t cost a lot, priced into job. Again regulation and good practice are separate things, stands you out from the rest, amount of compliments I’ve had from other trades when installing it that has led to more work is endless
Best house I ever owned had all the cables chased in with steel conduit. Rewiring was so easy.
20mm Conduit every time.
👍👍👍👍👍
what's that thing about going to war with the army you have, not the army you want? Same applies here.
It would be great, fkn awesome if all pricing was for the same standard: working 'from' the regs, not 'to' them.
But the reality is you can be as awesome a sparky as you want, sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring, while somebody else is out there getting it done. . . without having to include capping in the price that undercut you.
My property has metal stud frame walls, the cables just hang loose inside (UK property, 14 years old). I'm sure that isn't adequate protection - and the metal frame isn't earthed either. Also where the cables are unprotected in the loft (in both this and a previous property) I found at least one cable had been gashed to the copper, presumably by whoever was cutting the loft insulation. UK new builds... not great!
Pretty much disagree with everything said in this. Which is unusual for your videos.
1) firstly, and this is a big one. BS7671 isn't a legal document and can't be used as such in a court room.
2) sure capping looks nice but never seen plastic or metal capping / oval conduit stop a nail or screw.
3) everything is RCD protected now and youve done you're cable calcs, so you have done your bit to protect the installation.
4) clipping cables when done correctly look incredibly neat.
5) the only possible reasons to use mechanical protection would be for future rewiring purposes. In which case you're going in with 20mm tube. Even then, if you wanted to protect it fully you would be looking at galv tube so that a screw couldn't go through the plastic tube.
Other than that...capping is pointless. As long as you don't have a heavy handed plasterer following you around.
Some really posh jobs in the old days had us use metal conduit with a bend into the joist run, these would be the wealthy house on Bishops avenue. But you had to enamel paint any scratches on the pipe or rush could show through
Capping is pointless, especially plastic. I work to a very very high standard but never install capping unless its a completely bare wall where the cables could get damaged before of during dot and dabbing. Even then you have to test your work before its been energised to confirm that hasn't happened. The regs required capping in the past when RCD protection wasn't around and also to protect from the lime in old plaster which used to burn into a cable over time. Plastic capping will not stop anyone putting a nail through a cable etc. Yes it looks good but thats as far as it goes.
To add, in your last video you had one drop on your rewire with multiple cable and you said you just used cable banding as there are too many cables for capping!
14:00 If you decided to watch to the end of the video before you rant he clearly states that yes in some situations its not possible. But it shows a court or a regulator that you made an effort to be safe IF the situation arises that its necessary. Its a low cost relative to the cost of damages after being found guilty in a court room.
Exactly. There is also reasons why UK is one of the only countries I know of that does capping.
It might look neater thatncables thrown in the wall, but cables neatly fixated into it look just as good, or sometimes even better.
All it does from a safety standpoint, talking of plastic capping, is that the plaster doesn't make contact with the cable itself.
And that is only safer if the cable is not made to be in contact with plaster. I don't know if Twin and Earth is.
For anything else, like damage of cable, you will have to test your installation anyways before energizing.
@@keigun5546 modern plaster is none corrosive and fine to be directly on PVC cables 👍
@@TeamSimpsonRacing Fair enough.
I am from germany and our normal cables for in or below plaster are PVC sheathed with PVC filler and PVC isolated wiring.
Just didn't know what UKs standard cable was made out of.
Furthermore, capping like that is not even sold here.
Personally I don't see the point.
As well as that regulations by EN/IEC/CENELEC or adjusted for germany DIN/VDE specifically specify that wiring like we use can be installed in or below plaster without consequences, of course as long as everything else is also up to code.
You might know cables like NYY-J being used in the UK as replacement for Tuff Sheath, for example.
That cable is standardized by us, for in house installation we use NYM-J.
Its not as UV or *continuously submerged* water resistant, as well as not as hard as the NYY sheathing.
BAck in 1999-2000 when I was on work experience with a local spark, we always used capping on a new install and/or rewire as and when it was practical to do so. As for mechanical protection it isn;t going to stop DIY Bob coming along to put a shelf on the wall and drilling into it (I know, I've done it myself many years ago lol and so has my stepdad) However, it will protect it from the plasterer and their trowl.