The fallacy of the sport/positive prey based training is that people get sucked into making the dog reliant on the reinforcer. When the paycheck stops, the dog stops working. And then they don’t want to introduce any other points of the quadrant. I’m all good with teaching the dog the initial behavior with the reward of choice. But eventually, as you stated, reliable behavior comes from realizing the aversive is there and will come because of disobedience. And the other failure is consistency in application of the aversive. The dog becomes confused and conditioned to the aversive through the inconsistent application. Then people up the aversive and shut the dog down instead of realizing it’s their failure. Good argument for other approaches.
@@hans-alpinek9real I gradually began to drift away from that habit on my own some time ago. Now I see I made a good decision by not keeping up with it.
The petting works as a supreme reward, if you don't over use it, within home. Our fur baby culture wants to pet every single dog, in overabundance. Emotions are the biggest reward a dog can receive. Starving your dog of your presence, within your company, by naturally ignoring, ads as a emotive reward.
My vizla was never really impressed by food as a reward, regardless of the kind of it so it was logic to use the voice and touch to praise her. What really keep her going are toys and birds but only playing with toys gets her energy too high and she gets into overdrive which I don't like to see. I like to switch from relaxed parts of the walk where she can roam freely to some exercises or games which requires her attention and concentration on me and the task. Anyway, thanks for the nice videos you guys upload, I love listening to wise people sharing their dog knowledge.
I’ve been following your podcasts and it is really eye opening. A video on how to build that relationship would be great! Like how do we learn the Alien language. Thank you
Pet, pet, good boy = good feelings. I train this way also, but I’m not convinced when I tell my dog to down, that he is doing it for me.. but rather for the oxytocin/good feelings. Oxytocin just seems like a different type of cookie to me. What are your thoughts on this Hans.
The same as the anticipation of a reward aka ball or treat the dopamine surge is huge in anticipation but declines on the receiving of the reward. Using both is what most ppl do, pressure is applied to allow for a black and white world even with reward based training. Longevity and removal of reward and maintaining the idea in the dogs head there is a possibility of a ball, pet, treat is all the same. Dynamic movements can't be done in the absence of reward. Loose leash walking isn't a focused heel 😅 it's about the only thing taught in drive but the drive has to be low enough that learning takes place and negatives come for checking out.
The AVSAB recently changed their LIMA guidelines to what is essentially an endorsement of only pure positive reinforcement! I think it would be interesting to have a discussion about how that is supposed to work for a profession that people rely on for the most severe problems, typically related to aggression. Is it simply a concession that their philosophy now demands they no longer do their job to a competent degree? Is it just a public-facing stance that does not apply to their professionals? I'm wondering how their approach is supposed to work for the kind of dogs they take on. I think it'd be an interesting discussion.
Han’s is so correct !!! I NEVER used food to train The Imported German Shepherd , We bought from Han’s . He was an excellent Dog & The BEST Protection Dog anyone could ever hope for !!! Han’s sells The Best Imported German Shepherds - Smart , Loyal , and Very Protective !!!
HANS WHO SELLS THE BEST DEFENCE GSD IN THE UK I WANT TO PURCHASE YOUR TRAINING COURSE BUT IT WONT BE ANY GOOD TO ME IF I CANT FIND A GOOD DEFENCE DRIVEN GSD
This is about "relationship", BUT a profession trainer cannot have that with someone else's dog. In the 70's [I'm old] we used facial expressions, instinctively learned by the dog.
My male gsd learned hand signals, head movements and facial expressions by accident. When I trained him I used my natural animations and he picked them up on his own.
@@marka1712 Dogs comunicate with "body lanuage". From day one they are learning yours. I could read who [dog friend] my dog was tracking on our walks. I, personally, dont have any human friends, people lie, animals dont.
@@patmunro3531 I know that now but I only learned it by accident. I’m with you on ppl, I have very few ppl friends but my two dogs, especially my male is the best and closest friend I’ve ever had. I also enjoy the nonverbal communication with dogs. It’s incredible how you and your dog can know exactly what each other is thinking and gonna do without a word. Niko even gets my facial expressions now.
The individual dog decides what it individual rewarding. And it's based on drive. Same for punishment. It's the dogs perspective what is effective punishment not the human
That is totally fine. As long as you are not using it for training as you stated, but lots of dog trainers, use it as part of their training, which is a huge mistake.
@@hans-alpinek9real imagine your boss giving you a pat on your back after working for him. Nah man, I want my paycheck, I want my promotion. Let's be logical here.
Come on people shut up and listen Keep ur opinions to ur self There's may ways to cook a stew There's many ways to train a dog I respect the old way I learn the new way And one day I make my own stew
Treat training can also make your dog hyper. Maybe why it's popular with the sport trainers.
Used correctly it can build prey drive, it’s very useful to mold behaviors
The issue is that the dog will work for treat NOT for you.
I look forward to your videos. I wish I were closer to you, I am in So Cal...
Thanks for watching! Maybe you can travel down and train with us on a Saturday one day.
That thought has entered my mind...
👍
The fallacy of the sport/positive prey based training is that people get sucked into making the dog reliant on the reinforcer. When the paycheck stops, the dog stops working. And then they don’t want to introduce any other points of the quadrant. I’m all good with teaching the dog the initial behavior with the reward of choice. But eventually, as you stated, reliable behavior comes from realizing the aversive is there and will come because of disobedience.
And the other failure is consistency in application of the aversive. The dog becomes confused and conditioned to the aversive through the inconsistent application. Then people up the aversive and shut the dog down instead of realizing it’s their failure.
Good argument for other approaches.
Dinner, pup and Alpine’s video! 💪💪💪 I’ve done it because so many trainers say to do it, but I always felt praising the dog was better.
Great to hear! It builds a deeper bond. Too bad most do not practice this
@@hans-alpinek9real I gradually began to drift away from that habit on my own some time ago. Now I see I made a good decision by not keeping up with it.
👍
The petting works as a supreme reward, if you don't over use it, within home. Our fur baby culture wants to pet every single dog, in overabundance. Emotions are the biggest reward a dog can receive. Starving your dog of your presence, within your company, by naturally ignoring, ads as a emotive reward.
Be good to have a video on the quadrants
Will make one. Thank you for listening.
True, my rottweiler went into shock when i tried out of drive obedience, no treats lol. They do adjust to no treats. Its not the end of the world 😮
Yes, they will learn. It is more work but a deeper bond. Thanks for watching
I allways thought it to myself deep inside. thanks
Glad to hear
My vizla was never really impressed by food as a reward, regardless of the kind of it so it was logic to use the voice and touch to praise her. What really keep her going are toys and birds but only playing with toys gets her energy too high and she gets into overdrive which I don't like to see. I like to switch from relaxed parts of the walk where she can roam freely to some exercises or games which requires her attention and concentration on me and the task.
Anyway, thanks for the nice videos you guys upload, I love listening to wise people sharing their dog knowledge.
Thank you so much for listening. Yes it is a balance. Most people do not understand endorphins which play a huge part in dog psychology.
That's the next video on my list Your Obedience... actually I think I will go and buy it now.
Great to hear. Thanks in advance for your purchase 😊
I’ve been following your podcasts and it is really eye opening. A video on how to build that relationship would be great! Like how do we learn the Alien language. Thank you
Great suggestion!
Thank you for watching and listening
Pet, pet, good boy = good feelings. I train this way also, but I’m not convinced when I tell my dog to down, that he is doing it for me.. but rather for the oxytocin/good feelings. Oxytocin just seems like a different type of cookie to me. What are your thoughts on this Hans.
The same as the anticipation of a reward aka ball or treat the dopamine surge is huge in anticipation but declines on the receiving of the reward. Using both is what most ppl do, pressure is applied to allow for a black and white world even with reward based training. Longevity and removal of reward and maintaining the idea in the dogs head there is a possibility of a ball, pet, treat is all the same. Dynamic movements can't be done in the absence of reward. Loose leash walking isn't a focused heel 😅 it's about the only thing taught in drive but the drive has to be low enough that learning takes place and negatives come for checking out.
Great topic!
Glad you enjoyed it
The AVSAB recently changed their LIMA guidelines to what is essentially an endorsement of only pure positive reinforcement! I think it would be interesting to have a discussion about how that is supposed to work for a profession that people rely on for the most severe problems, typically related to aggression. Is it simply a concession that their philosophy now demands they no longer do their job to a competent degree? Is it just a public-facing stance that does not apply to their professionals? I'm wondering how their approach is supposed to work for the kind of dogs they take on. I think it'd be an interesting discussion.
Han’s is so correct !!! I NEVER used food to train The Imported German Shepherd , We bought from Han’s . He was an excellent Dog & The BEST Protection Dog anyone could ever hope for !!! Han’s sells The Best Imported German Shepherds - Smart , Loyal , and Very Protective !!!
You know more and more about less and less.
Ayalasaito you should not say nothing at all cause it all sounds dumb !!!
@@williamchee6873 I forgot more about dog training than you ever learned.
HANS WHO SELLS THE BEST DEFENCE GSD IN THE UK
I WANT TO PURCHASE YOUR TRAINING COURSE BUT IT WONT BE ANY GOOD TO ME IF I CANT FIND A GOOD DEFENCE DRIVEN GSD
What about teaching puppies. Is it the same thing
I have a video here about that th-cam.com/video/4A2vsFz8P3U/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jx9bRsS4pDvLgr5n
This is about "relationship", BUT a profession trainer cannot have that with someone else's dog. In the 70's [I'm old] we used facial expressions, instinctively learned by the dog.
👍
My male gsd learned hand signals, head movements and facial expressions by accident. When I trained him I used my natural animations and he picked them up on his own.
They are smart
@@marka1712
@@marka1712 Dogs comunicate with "body lanuage". From day one they are learning yours. I could read who [dog friend] my dog was tracking on our walks. I, personally, dont have any human friends, people lie, animals dont.
@@patmunro3531 I know that now but I only learned it by accident. I’m with you on ppl, I have very few ppl friends but my two dogs, especially my male is the best and closest friend I’ve ever had. I also enjoy the nonverbal communication with dogs. It’s incredible how you and your dog can know exactly what each other is thinking and gonna do without a word. Niko even gets my facial expressions now.
The individual dog decides what it individual rewarding. And it's based on drive.
Same for punishment. It's the dogs perspective what is effective punishment not the human
I think of cookies as a snack for my dog not a training tool
That is totally fine. As long as you are not using it for training as you stated, but lots of dog trainers, use it as part of their training, which is a huge mistake.
Imagine working for someone and never getting paid...
The dog gets paid by my petting
@@hans-alpinek9real imagine your boss giving you a pat on your back after working for him. Nah man, I want my paycheck, I want my promotion. Let's be logical here.
The dog gets paid by my petting him
@@hans-alpinek9real 😂
100%
😊
Come on people shut up and listen
Keep ur opinions to ur self
There's may ways to cook a stew
There's many ways to train a dog
I respect the old way
I learn the new way
And one day I make my own stew
😊