The Steam Deck looks good because it has a 720p screen, unfortunately a game rendered at 720p on the Framework screen looks bad. But I'll dive deeper into that next week.
@@ElevatedSystemsI wonder if you try integer scaling - might need to add a custom resolution and enabling some settings in the AMD control panel - 1128 x 752
@@soragrandait depends, if with performance we talk about fps in settings you want to use, probably are about the same, as indeed is quite more capable but due to scaling and raw screen size you’d want to run the game above the HD 720p/800p of the Steam Deck, so at the end you’ll probably end up with similar fps, because 720p in the screen of the Framework laptop doesn’t look good
It's now CS2! Try it on both DX11 and Vulkan mode! (on launch options, add -vulkan). Also, It would be hard for noise and heat to decrase. It's double the performance.
@@ElevatedSystems Hi, when you test CS2, can you please try "pro player" settings, 1280x960, stretched, all low settings, FidelityFX disabled, that would be great
i've had my amd r7 framework laptop for a few weeks now and i've been loving it. been running fedora 39 on it exclusively and i don't miss windows at all. gaming performance is great and runs everything i want it to. my steam deck showed me that linux is 100% a viable platform for pc gaming and fedora and my framework is sealing the deal.
Finally, I'm perplexed by the lack of content for this awesome machine. Really looking forward to the linux and gaming reviews. Your work will have a big impact on whether I buy this machine or not! Thanks for your great work.
@@Pro720HyperMaster720 Insyde also makes the BIOS for 11th gen Intel boards (I have one) and I'm assuming the other Intel boards as well. But it had the more "traditional" look
It is. Unfortunately FSR2 performance with Medium settings looked pretty bad, but I'll be tweaking things to find the most "playable" settings in the games I test.
@@ElevatedSystems FWIW, that's been FSR1 support in-game since launch (even the video showed as much if you squint at the config panel in your capture). Update #4 that went out over the last ~2 weeks added proper FSR2.2 support though, among another ocean's worth of tweaks and optimizations.
Great video! I'm very interested to see the Linux review, since that's how I'll be using it for development. It's so fantastic to see Framework continuing to succeed.
It's almost 2x the cost to my comparable Lenovo 16" 7840u. I'll keep saying it over and over - there's an initial R&D markup that early adopters will pay. I for one can't drop an extra $1200 just because, since it will probably take a couple of generations of these laptops to bring these into mainstream pricelines. Until then, I'm happy for those believers who fork out the cash on a Framework. I hope other manufacturers follow suit with this design
There's a cost difference that has to be factored in. Even loyal framework users are going to spend less on future framework purchases, meaning the company has to front load more of the cost. Also, there's no shot any other major manufacture will go down this road. (unless the EU forces that process)
One thing to consider is the build quality. I can't comment on FW build quality, but some of the cheap Lenovo, HP, and Dell laptops are absolute dogshit and fall apart unless you're only using them on a table in your dining room
I think the best path for more budget conscious people will be to buy 2nd hand parts than buying brand new parts. But it will be enthusiast who are more up for 2nd hand parts where most people just want brand new parts. Maybe if Framework increases their scale they can offer better value, but I doubt big companies will go away from buying bulk of laptops etc. from a big manufacture like Dell.
Always enjoying your Framework content, the laptop fans not being active all the time, is a major reason why this version is much more appealing to me (though I am not in the market for a new laptop just yet, and I wonder about the performance and noise level of the Framework 16). Looking forward to more videos in this series.
Thanks CJ, love all the reviews, but Framework ones take the lead. I am 100% with you on the upgrade thoughts. Perhaps it will become something like swapping in really old gear augmented with government sourced environment protection subsidies bringing down the prices massively. After all, that would be full and real recycling.
Are you on drugs? The guy is comparing the latest model with 11th and 12th gen Intel processors, when the more accurate comparison would be the 13th gen Intel processor. He made Intel look bad intentionally by comparing the current AMD offering to old Intel chips.
@@cyclopsvision6370 The 13th gen was just released a few months ago. Upgrading from a one and two year old board is already pretty unreasonable for most ppl. Anyone who bought the 13th gen already knew the Ryzen one was being released so they aren't looking to upgrade. Besides the 13th gen is only 5% to 10% faster than the 12th gen with no power efficiency improvements. They are basically the same mainboard.
Linux distros to test! Debian Linux Mint Ubuntu Fedora Arch Linux (EndeavourOS is an accessible version with direct parity with Arch Linux packages) Consider the fractional scaling on X11 vs Wayland and the performance on both. Also the most important thing as someone interested in these laptops is battery life - so one thing to look into is battery saving methods on each distro. On Fedora for example, my home distro, you would use powerprofilesctl in the terminal to select a performance preset.
CJ, regarding gaming: I think you should definitely mention that this is probably an indie gaming beast! There's a lot of non-esports titles that are not super graphic intensive, even 3d games, with many that just so happen to be exclusive to Windows machines. Examples: Noita, Risk of Rain 2, Deep Rock Galactic... You name it!
The review I was looking for! I'd love to see a deep dive comparison between the AMD Framework and the M2 MacBook Pro, if you'd be so willing. The Mac won out on my purchase when we only had the 11th gen Intel, but the AMD makes it quite interesting.
Thanks for the video, very interesting! I have the very first Framework Laptop (11th gen i5) from 2021 and its already a really good machine. Fast forward 2+ years and we get better screen rigidity, a matte panel, louder speakers (quality still subpar unfortunately) and *finally* amazing battery life. I won't upgrade any parts for environmental reasons (would love the matte screen tho) but from now on I can recommend the FW13 to anyone looking for an ultrabook without any bad conscience. I hope after the 16 they will start working on a 360 hinge or a 2in1 chassis that fits the same mainboard if thats not possible.
Regarding not upgrading... selling the laptop / giving it to a relative/friend and getting a new one is still an option. Also, maybe there's people searching for the parts you want to upgrade, to repair their own laptops. I mean, maybe their mobo fried and they don't need an upgrade, but would like a replacement as cheap as possible.
C.J many thanks for a fantastic review. You answered many of the questions I had about upgrading my FW13. The performance statistics around fan noise and heat were particularly incite full along with the battery upgrade. I run Ubuntu 22.04 and am constantly frustrated with battery life, fan noise and heat. This is exacerbated when I fire up VMware instances of Windows and Kali. I would love to get your thoughts on how the Ryzen board went with Ubuntu stand alone and with a couple of VM's running if you could manage it. Again, many thanks, I'm looking forward to your further reviews of the Ryzen board.
Awesome video! This took some time, but worth the wait. I would like to see a test of Steam's Linux OS and see how the gaming performance might change running the Proton layer for games.
I have 11th gen intel in my framework. I don't want this newer AMD, but I am interested as this is a giant leap in performance. If this is the leap today then the leap in 4 years when I would upgrade could only be better. This is exciting news for the future of Framework.
14:28 adding 11 percent to the Intel numbers brings them around 7 hours and 20 minutes. Subtracting 11 percent to the AMD brings it around 9 hours and 30 minutes. Very impressive battery life performance indeed. I think a big reason Apple keeps their battery life better when in sleep is because they use LPDDR. The biggest power efficiency gains LPDDR brings is in inactivity where regular DDR cannot use very minimal power when not in use. I dunno if the memory can be dumbed into the SSD when in sleep so the memory isn't using power at all. But there might still be OS differences that makes MacOS very good in not using power in sleep compared to Windows. I do think both have issues with sleep when plugged in because something remain active (I think it is wifi) which causes bigger battery drain than doing sleep while unplugged.
@CJ thank you for another comprehensive well thought out coverage of the FW AMD board, just wish your camera had focused on you and not the lid of the FW laptop! 🙂 And looking forward to more to come.
LOL. Wasn't sure if anyone would notice. When I pulled focus I was sitting inline with the laptop bit at the last minute decided to push my stool back and I forgot to refocus. It didn't look very bad in the raw footage but the TH-cam compression didn't help.
I think Patel is wise to consider Apple their main competitor... The MacBook airs in the short term are just such a great value and whole I really want this laptop... It's just too costly for me to justify pre-ordering, waiting and ponying up! The new battery life is a game changer, but man heat, standby and sound are tradeoffs I'm not sure I'm ready to make.
Its such a cool idea. I'd honestly hope other Laptop companies at least adopt swapping ports from framework. I'm going to buy a 16 model when win 12 arrives, I'll be hitting batch 18 or 19. I also want a speaker upgrade for non headphone use.
11:02 Impressive the on battery performance was better than plugged in. But perhaps the new drivers improves things. It would also be nice to see how the frame time was for on battery (it might be the case it sucked overall but did really well particular places so the total amount of frames was higher or it actually just overall was better, lol).
Thats why i upgrade the power supplys on my laptops. i got 100+ chargers and even battery banks. i even got a 350 watt brick for my old alienware m17x r4 back in the day. at least you found the issue!!!
Repairs are important. I have 2 HP X360s, different models. The keyboards on both are bad. I would love to be able to swap the keyboards out in 2 minutes. And upgrade the Ram. Can't really do either. The ram is soldered in. The keyboard is plastic welded in. I ordered a Framework 16. The aggravation is a higher cost that the price of the Framerwork.
Please test Ubuntu and Fedora 🙏 especially heat and battery life. My Framework 12th Gen is going strong. Replaced the hinges and added a vinyl skin and a matte screen protector. It's working really well and is light enough to travel almost everywhere.
I appreciate the video; the extended time was well worth it. I am looking forward to your thoughts when you eventually get your hands on the upcoming Framework Laptop 16. I would also be very grateful if you would consider testing Linux Mint when you explore Linux with this new AMD board. I just got my first Framework 13 with the Intel 12th gen Core i5 and am having a tough time getting it to cooperate with my external monitor. I would love to see how this new board behaves with that and other distros for you. Thank you.
Please test Debian 12!! I would love to see your experience as I'm interested in an AMD framework for uni and beyond. Thanks for the honest review, they're hard to come by nowadays
A Battery comparison with tho old one would have been really cool. But maybe someone in the Forum will do one. I use the 11 Gen i5 Model. i think the I5 or Ryzen 5 Cpus are and have been the better choice Price to Performance wise. Like 600 for the Bord some RAM and the WIFI card would be the way to go for me. I love to see your Review
@@deansmits006 I ordered the 16 and I'm giving the 13 to my girlfriend. But we will probably upgrade it together sometime next year as I want to use the Bord as a Media PC and she will probably want a more efficient CPU.
I've been watching Intel and AMD duke it out for a couple of decades. The competition has been good for us consumers, which I think your video illustrates perfectly.
A lot of great info here. One that stood out is upgrading costs too much. Framework should really take note on this one. And Framework’s CEO is right about its main competitor being Apple. For me anyway, that’s exactly what I’m comparing it to!
Thanks CJ for the comprehensive video. How are your grandbabies? I can't wait to see your in depth review on Ryzen Framework. Please let me know if the bios has following settings: - above 4G encoding - Auto resize bar support
Overall not a bad review, but I have to question some things: 1. Saying that the chassis is showing its age. Touchpad technology, screen technology, and speaker technology have not drastically changed int he past few years. It is true that the Framework may not have the absolute best of these (particularly the speakers) - but they are above average in the screen and touchpad areas, and also in other areas like the keyboard. Sure, I hope they can continue to upgrade and perfect everything about their laptops, but the fact remains: Either the original was usable, or it wasn't. If it was, then it still is. I for one would be perfectly happy to keep using my original chassis, top case, hinges, and all. The Touchpad is enough better than my Thinkpad that I appreciate the difference. 2. The price discussion. Selling a used laptop is generally *very much* a losing proposition. As an example, if you buy a new laptop every two years, then you will (generally) be lucky to sell your laptop for half of what you bought it for. So, if you buy a $2000 laptop every two years, then you might be lucky and get $1000 for the old one. This means that if you could get a new motherboard for less than $1000, you are better off changing the motherboard - even without factoring in that you get to keep the older one. As the side of SSD and memory goes up, more and more of the cost of the PC goes into these, and so the argument for re-use goes up more and more if one or both of these can be re-used. Given that the motherboard can be repurposed into a new PC or sold onto someone else, that sweetens the deal further. I think since the poster is making multiple videos about re-purposing the motherboard, this is well known. To be honest, though, for "regular people", I would focus on the repair-ability aspect more than the upgrad-ability aspect when "selling it" to them. Apple and others had done research showing that most people never actually upgraded their PC, and hence it was "okay" to solder everything onto the board. I'm sure this is true in the sense that people who aren't interested in computers, but just use them, are less likely to open them up and change out things like even the RAM or SSD, much less the motherboard. Telling my aunt, for example "This laptop is really cool because you can swap out the motherboard" is likely to be met with a blank stare. On the other hand, explaining that "If you ever break this laptop, or part of it fails, I can fix it for you for pretty quickly & inexpensively and without losing your data in most cases. If you choose a Macbook or many other PC laptops, it will probably mean a very costly complete replacement where you will be without your laptop for days or maybe weeks". Especially if they have ever had a laptop break in the past, this should be something they understand. Not only that, but when they do sell a framework used in order to buy a new laptop, dealers of used goods and repair shops can easily mix and match parts to do the upgrading that people wouldn't do on their own, and so things still can get saved from the land fill - which is the most unique aspect to me. You can give your used laptop to someone, and they will probably keep it for a year or so before giving it to their kid for a year or so - but after that, it's likely to end up in a landfill - especially if it breaks. Because the framework is completely repairable and fixable, basically only truly obsolete and/or broken parts should ever end up in the landfill - and hence why we should all do our best to keep using the original chassis if we can.
Regarding the cost: for most "normal" users, they'll use whatever they have for as long as it's working and supported. Those costs that you experienced would normally be stretched out over the course of a 5-7 year time span representing minor replacements, repairs, and upgrades here and there; rather than annual upgrades like you experienced. Most people don't find a need to upgrade their computer unless it's no longer doing what they want. Additionally, as Framework laptops increase in number and the more often parts are replaced, those old parts will start to hit Ebay as cheap replacements that will allow someone to recoup the cost on, and provide *someone* a cheap upgrade. Just wanted to provide an alternate point of view. Also, Halo Infinite testing plz? 🥺
I was just going to say, this right here. Plus, in a few years when they have a Zen5 and Zen6 upgrade (here's hoping), people can upgrade from an older original Intel to a Zen4 board for hundreds less. I don't know how long Framework plans to make compatible upgrades, but 3 gens so far is great. Ultimately, it's about the repairability, which not many others offer. The upgrades are icing
I wonder if you also use that Macbook Pro as your desktop setup as you did use a Mac Studio at one point (so it might also be more convenient to have one device for everything instead of having to switch between devices). I do wonder how much better battery life LPDDR brings, but it sadly doesn't exist as modules to replace like regular DDR. As that is also a difference between Macs and Framework.
Really helpful video! What about video out over USB-C? Can a multi-port dock use a single USB-4 cable to charge the AMD Framework 13 while also driving two 4K monitors? If so, 60hz limit or 144hz ability for two (or more) 4k monitors over a single cable to a capable USB-4 dock, like over Thunderbolt 3/4 cable using a capable Thunderbolt dock for the Intel 13th Gen Framework? How "good" are those two rear ports with USB-C modules installed? Also would love any info about AMD benchmark performance versus Intel 13th Gen Framework.
Right now the cost of a new mainboard to upgrade to is really unreasonable mainly due to the new adopter tax, but I would expect its price to fall fairly quickly when newer mainboards come out just like how they did with the 11th gen, so perhaps an argument could be made there for its currently high price.
It's not worth it on the U series processors. The cooling isn't robust enough to handle higher sustained TDP, push it over 25 to 28 and it just hits thermal limits and throttles anyway. I can use it with my cooler mod though.
Great video. Not got a Framework... Yet. I would like the 16" one with the GPU, but not cheap. Would dual boot with Windows and Linux Mint. The only reason for Windows is DCS...
Ah such a tough choice between this and the m2 MacBook Air for a similar price. I can’t decide if the better battery/screen makes up for the fact that the MacBook won’t be repairable or replaceable battery when it degrades, or upgradable when it gets slow…
I didn't really feel the need to upgrade my Framework 12th Gen, some optimisation on the Linux side can push it further to around 8 hours. That being said, my laptop is borrowed to a relative for school so I got a 2nd hand Thinkpad X280. I loved the feel of the body and keyboard, wish there was an option for that on the Framework 13 chassis too.
So I never thought i would say this, but, honestly, between the battery life, performance and heat it's hard to justify a windows thin and light. And while it is possible that the next gen of ARM windows laptops might solve this problem or maybe later x86 mobile processors. The only thing keeping me on Windows is the lack of good raytracing support because for everything else Apple is as good if not better than the competition. And while I love how repairable Framework is. The perfomance is not where I want it to be. The 16 inch might change my mind but I do 3D character modeling and rendering. So I have a very specific set of requirements.
If its noise and heat that bothering you than simply use a Notebook Cooler , the Notebook Fans are relativly tiny and have to spin fast to pump air into the Laptop = noisy , my Notebook Cooler has too slim 140 mm fans which blow cold Air from beneath the Laptop into the Laptop which support the Laptop Fans , powered only by USB . That will bring the Temps down and with it the noise from the Laptop Fans .
I'd love to see if frameworks could also offer an AIO version. I'm not a big fan of the small laptop screens and love to have much room on my desktop. I find commercially available AIOs annoying as you can't upgrade them. They tend to be annoying to service and upgrade. For now I use a mini pc vesa mounted to a monitor but would prefer the better performance most AIOs can bring.
Alright, this is gonna determine if I'm gonna have to explain a $1000+ purchase to my wife when the credit card statement arrives in two weeks. (Typing this before I even watched anything of the video) You need to test the traditional Crysis Remastered, Arkham Knight and few other older computer buster games. I love playing these older stress test games on current gen hardware. Linux Mint Mate, elementary OS and some Manjaro flavored Linux. They're the ones I rock or us the most other than the server stuff. I'm not ordering today but as soon as I see an update BIOS/software to fix up the few issues, as well as seeing more 7640u reviews.
Note: AFAIK the AI accelerator will NOT help when training most models. It helps when you've got a finished model and want to use it (so on device AI stuff). The issue is that the accelerator only accelerates integer calculations. Meanwhile, for training, you usually need float calculations. The ability to smoothly change variables is very important when you're training. Afterwards you can often adopt that algorithm you found to work on Integer units. But during training the inability to adjust the stepsize is highly problematic. There are limited use cases where the Integer units will help, usually that is the case if you've got a heterogenous model, where you just reuse an model (that has an Integer variant) without modifying it. But that is often fairly limiting.
The page you were looking at is meant for developers that want to target a Ryzen Processor as target platform for deployment. Without that nothing would happen at all. But considering how absent other features are that devs would like, I'm dubious whether that will work out for them, mainstream projects aside (but these mainstream projects, such as Windows, already know what to do, so that page doesn't help with that).
It is great that we can swap between AMD and Intel CPUs, but I wonder if we can in the future swap between architecture, like put in ARM CPUs or RISC-V CPUs.
I actually couldn't reset my PIN even with the ethernet adapter, and had to do a fresh install of Windows to complete my upgrade. Fortunately, I backed up my data on an external drive beforehand, and I was up and running soon enough. I'm using my original 55W battery from my 11th Gen laptop, and was able to get 8+ hours of light work right out of the box (including an hour or so of playing Stellaris to test the graphics & fan, which was silent).
Windows has issues. I should have been able to connect to WiFi to reset mt pin, but clicking on the network icon on the bottom right of the screen did nothing.
Could you test StarCraft2? it's an old game at this point, but the one that I usually play on my laptop. Other games I play on my desktop with a beefier GPU. Also, when you test Linux, could you add Julia programming language to the tests?
16:13 Huh, that's weird. According to NotebookCheck, the AMD Framework pulled less maximum power than the Intel ones during their stress tests, and it stayed below 60W, with a maximum of 55W. Similarly, Phoronix tested another 7840U laptop and it only drew 30W peak, compared to over 70W for the i7-1280P! Is is possible your charger/cable is defective? Did you test with another 60W charger/cable combination? You could also try monitoring the power input either via software or a USB tester.
Even Framework states that the 60W charger isn't sufficient for the AMD Mainboard when off battery, and recommends a 100W power source. This indicates the board draws over 60W and needs the battery to suppliment under heavy sustained load which is what my testing showed.
I've ordered the 7640U based one a few days ago. I wanted to give Framework a try. I appreciate the sustainability of the design, but I do worry about the heat and power That said, I was looking at a Dell XPS with Intel 125H as the alternative, and I assume they probably thermal throttle constantly with such a thin design. Issue with modern laptops. Naturally the M3 is one of the better choices, but MacBook Air is the same price range as the FW and at 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage, it's a bit of a cheeser
Can you take a framework laptop, Remove the motherboard, place a usb C hub inside And use is as a portable Samsung Dex type of thing? Razer had a prototype a few years ago, but now I think it is even more feasible
Whats good about the gaming perf is that it should sit at or above the steam deck, so as long as the deck remains relevant, so does the 7840u.
The Steam Deck looks good because it has a 720p screen, unfortunately a game rendered at 720p on the Framework screen looks bad. But I'll dive deeper into that next week.
@@ElevatedSystemsI wonder if you try integer scaling - might need to add a custom resolution and enabling some settings in the AMD control panel - 1128 x 752
Is way better than the steam deck, more CU on GPU, more cores on CPU, also, Zen 4 over Zen 2 and RDNA3 over RDNA2.
This is much faster
@@soragrandait depends, if with performance we talk about fps in settings you want to use, probably are about the same, as indeed is quite more capable but due to scaling and raw screen size you’d want to run the game above the HD 720p/800p of the Steam Deck, so at the end you’ll probably end up with similar fps, because 720p in the screen of the Framework laptop doesn’t look good
I'm using the AMD board for a day or so and I'm impressed by the good performance with fans quite most of the time.
And once deck2 comes out we have better apus for framework hopefully
Would love to see Linux related performance and battery life comparison!
True because this kind of device is perfect for developers. Who mostly run some kind of debian based OS.
It's now CS2! Try it on both DX11 and Vulkan mode! (on launch options, add -vulkan).
Also, It would be hard for noise and heat to decrase. It's double the performance.
LOL, Did I say CS:GO? I actually typed CS2 into my script. I guess after a decade it's just stuck in my brain. It's on the list to test.
@@ElevatedSystems Hi, when you test CS2, can you please try "pro player" settings, 1280x960, stretched, all low settings, FidelityFX disabled, that would be great
i've had my amd r7 framework laptop for a few weeks now and i've been loving it. been running fedora 39 on it exclusively and i don't miss windows at all. gaming performance is great and runs everything i want it to. my steam deck showed me that linux is 100% a viable platform for pc gaming and fedora and my framework is sealing the deal.
Finally, I'm perplexed by the lack of content for this awesome machine. Really looking forward to the linux and gaming reviews. Your work will have a big impact on whether I buy this machine or not! Thanks for your great work.
That new BIOS looks pretty great, design-wise.
A BIOS update for that new GUI would be really cool for my 12th gen FWL13.
It does. I'm just old school (or just old) and like the old blue and white AMI BIOS screens.
Is like the Steam Deck one, I find that curious as I never saw that BIOS manufacturer until the Steam Deck
@@Pro720HyperMaster720 Insyde also makes the BIOS for 11th gen Intel boards (I have one) and I'm assuming the other Intel boards as well. But it had the more "traditional" look
honestly that Baulder's Gate 3 performance is impressive!
It is. Unfortunately FSR2 performance with Medium settings looked pretty bad, but I'll be tweaking things to find the most "playable" settings in the games I test.
@@ElevatedSystems FWIW, that's been FSR1 support in-game since launch (even the video showed as much if you squint at the config panel in your capture). Update #4 that went out over the last ~2 weeks added proper FSR2.2 support though, among another ocean's worth of tweaks and optimizations.
Great video! I'm very interested to see the Linux review, since that's how I'll be using it for development.
It's so fantastic to see Framework continuing to succeed.
Very well made video! Underrated channel, you should have much more views
It's almost 2x the cost to my comparable Lenovo 16" 7840u. I'll keep saying it over and over - there's an initial R&D markup that early adopters will pay. I for one can't drop an extra $1200 just because, since it will probably take a couple of generations of these laptops to bring these into mainstream pricelines. Until then, I'm happy for those believers who fork out the cash on a Framework. I hope other manufacturers follow suit with this design
There's a cost difference that has to be factored in. Even loyal framework users are going to spend less on future framework purchases, meaning the company has to front load more of the cost.
Also, there's no shot any other major manufacture will go down this road. (unless the EU forces that process)
Put your money where your mouth is
One thing to consider is the build quality. I can't comment on FW build quality, but some of the cheap Lenovo, HP, and Dell laptops are absolute dogshit and fall apart unless you're only using them on a table in your dining room
I think the best path for more budget conscious people will be to buy 2nd hand parts than buying brand new parts.
But it will be enthusiast who are more up for 2nd hand parts where most people just want brand new parts.
Maybe if Framework increases their scale they can offer better value, but I doubt big companies will go away from buying bulk of laptops etc. from a big manufacture like Dell.
Always enjoying your Framework content, the laptop fans not being active all the time, is a major reason why this version is much more appealing to me (though I am not in the market for a new laptop just yet, and I wonder about the performance and noise level of the Framework 16).
Looking forward to more videos in this series.
Thanks CJ, love all the reviews, but Framework ones take the lead. I am 100% with you on the upgrade thoughts. Perhaps it will become something like swapping in really old gear augmented with government sourced environment protection subsidies bringing down the prices massively. After all, that would be full and real recycling.
Are you on drugs? The guy is comparing the latest model with 11th and 12th gen Intel processors, when the more accurate comparison would be the 13th gen Intel processor. He made Intel look bad intentionally by comparing the current AMD offering to old Intel chips.
@@cyclopsvision6370 The 13th gen was just released a few months ago. Upgrading from a one and two year old board is already pretty unreasonable for most ppl. Anyone who bought the 13th gen already knew the Ryzen one was being released so they aren't looking to upgrade. Besides the 13th gen is only 5% to 10% faster than the 12th gen with no power efficiency improvements. They are basically the same mainboard.
Linux distros to test!
Debian
Linux Mint
Ubuntu
Fedora
Arch Linux (EndeavourOS is an accessible version with direct parity with Arch Linux packages)
Consider the fractional scaling on X11 vs Wayland and the performance on both.
Also the most important thing as someone interested in these laptops is battery life - so one thing to look into is battery saving methods on each distro. On Fedora for example, my home distro, you would use powerprofilesctl in the terminal to select a performance preset.
CJ, regarding gaming: I think you should definitely mention that this is probably an indie gaming beast! There's a lot of non-esports titles that are not super graphic intensive, even 3d games, with many that just so happen to be exclusive to Windows machines.
Examples: Noita, Risk of Rain 2, Deep Rock Galactic... You name it!
The review I was looking for!
I'd love to see a deep dive comparison between the AMD Framework and the M2 MacBook Pro, if you'd be so willing.
The Mac won out on my purchase when we only had the 11th gen Intel, but the AMD makes it quite interesting.
Thanks for the video, very interesting!
I have the very first Framework Laptop (11th gen i5) from 2021 and its already a really good machine.
Fast forward 2+ years and we get better screen rigidity, a matte panel, louder speakers (quality still subpar unfortunately) and *finally* amazing battery life.
I won't upgrade any parts for environmental reasons (would love the matte screen tho) but from now on I can recommend the FW13 to anyone looking for an ultrabook without any bad conscience.
I hope after the 16 they will start working on a 360 hinge or a 2in1 chassis that fits the same mainboard if thats not possible.
Regarding not upgrading... selling the laptop / giving it to a relative/friend and getting a new one is still an option. Also, maybe there's people searching for the parts you want to upgrade, to repair their own laptops. I mean, maybe their mobo fried and they don't need an upgrade, but would like a replacement as cheap as possible.
Respect for not upgrading due to environmental reasons!
Just bought the 13 brand new with this cpu glad to know it's gonna be awesome
C.J many thanks for a fantastic review. You answered many of the questions I had about upgrading my FW13. The performance statistics around fan noise and heat were particularly incite full along with the battery upgrade. I run Ubuntu 22.04 and am constantly frustrated with battery life, fan noise and heat. This is exacerbated when I fire up VMware instances of Windows and Kali. I would love to get your thoughts on how the Ryzen board went with Ubuntu stand alone and with a couple of VM's running if you could manage it. Again, many thanks, I'm looking forward to your further reviews of the Ryzen board.
Awesome video! This took some time, but worth the wait. I would like to see a test of Steam's Linux OS and see how the gaming performance might change running the Proton layer for games.
I have 11th gen intel in my framework. I don't want this newer AMD, but I am interested as this is a giant leap in performance. If this is the leap today then the leap in 4 years when I would upgrade could only be better. This is exciting news for the future of Framework.
id love to see ho well USB4 in the Framework works with an #EGPU
14:28 adding 11 percent to the Intel numbers brings them around 7 hours and 20 minutes.
Subtracting 11 percent to the AMD brings it around 9 hours and 30 minutes.
Very impressive battery life performance indeed.
I think a big reason Apple keeps their battery life better when in sleep is because they use LPDDR. The biggest power efficiency gains LPDDR brings is in inactivity where regular DDR cannot use very minimal power when not in use. I dunno if the memory can be dumbed into the SSD when in sleep so the memory isn't using power at all. But there might still be OS differences that makes MacOS very good in not using power in sleep compared to Windows.
I do think both have issues with sleep when plugged in because something remain active (I think it is wifi) which causes bigger battery drain than doing sleep while unplugged.
@CJ thank you for another comprehensive well thought out coverage of the FW AMD board, just wish your camera had focused on you and not the lid of the FW laptop! 🙂 And looking forward to more to come.
LOL. Wasn't sure if anyone would notice. When I pulled focus I was sitting inline with the laptop bit at the last minute decided to push my stool back and I forgot to refocus. It didn't look very bad in the raw footage but the TH-cam compression didn't help.
Can’t wait till the framework 16 pre orders ship
Waited for your review ! Glad to see you got the ryzen upgrade shipped !
This is by far the best video about the Framework 13 I've found. Subscribed.
I think Patel is wise to consider Apple their main competitor... The MacBook airs in the short term are just such a great value and whole I really want this laptop... It's just too costly for me to justify pre-ordering, waiting and ponying up!
The new battery life is a game changer, but man heat, standby and sound are tradeoffs I'm not sure I'm ready to make.
Im waiting on my preorder to ship. V excited to have one as a multi use, mostly light design/casual gaming/ media machine.
Its such a cool idea. I'd honestly hope other Laptop companies at least adopt swapping ports from framework. I'm going to buy a 16 model when win 12 arrives, I'll be hitting batch 18 or 19. I also want a speaker upgrade for non headphone use.
11:02 Impressive the on battery performance was better than plugged in. But perhaps the new drivers improves things.
It would also be nice to see how the frame time was for on battery (it might be the case it sucked overall but did really well particular places so the total amount of frames was higher or it actually just overall was better, lol).
the thing that i learnt from this video:
germany + colorado makes one heck of a tshirt
Great, solid video! Always love your Framework vids.
If you could test Ubuntu Studio in your Linux distro tests, I'd appreciate that
Thank you. You go into many details that many content creators dont do.
The games i usually play, skyrim, no mans sky, v rising should run just fine
Love to see how it runs Ubuntu! I'd really like to know what kind of trackpad gestures are available, and how stable it runs
Thats why i upgrade the power supplys on my laptops. i got 100+ chargers and even battery banks. i even got a 350 watt brick for my old alienware m17x r4 back in the day. at least you found the issue!!!
Battery charge percentage limit in BIOS!? I don't think I've ever heard or seen this :D. That is cool.
There is a limit so you don't stress the battery if you keep it plugged in for long periods.
Repairs are important.
I have 2 HP X360s, different models. The keyboards on both are bad. I would love to be able to swap the keyboards out in 2 minutes.
And upgrade the Ram.
Can't really do either. The ram is soldered in. The keyboard is plastic welded in.
I ordered a Framework 16. The aggravation is a higher cost that the price of the Framerwork.
Excellent video. Love the tip about the 100W charger. Liked & subscribed.
Please test Ubuntu and Fedora 🙏 especially heat and battery life.
My Framework 12th Gen is going strong. Replaced the hinges and added a vinyl skin and a matte screen protector. It's working really well and is light enough to travel almost everywhere.
I appreciate the video; the extended time was well worth it. I am looking forward to your thoughts when you eventually get your hands on the upcoming Framework Laptop 16. I would also be very grateful if you would consider testing Linux Mint when you explore Linux with this new AMD board. I just got my first Framework 13 with the Intel 12th gen Core i5 and am having a tough time getting it to cooperate with my external monitor. I would love to see how this new board behaves with that and other distros for you. Thank you.
You gave just the answer I was looking for. I'll probably wait for the _next_ AMD
For sure test fedora , using it for more than a year and for me it's awensome middleground in between ubuntu and arch based distros
Please test Debian 12!! I would love to see your experience as I'm interested in an AMD framework for uni and beyond. Thanks for the honest review, they're hard to come by nowadays
Great review! Have you tested any usb4 or thunderbolt 4 docks? Especially with multiple monitors.
A Battery comparison with tho old one would have been really cool.
But maybe someone in the Forum will do one.
I use the 11 Gen i5 Model. i think the I5 or Ryzen 5 Cpus are and have been the better choice Price to Performance wise. Like 600 for the Bord some RAM and the WIFI card would be the way to go for me.
I love to see your Review
I'll do a short on the 55wH battery life
Do you plan to upgrade your main board some day? Or only in the case if component failure? Just curious about how other owners view the modularity
@@deansmits006 I ordered the 16 and I'm giving the 13 to my girlfriend. But we will probably upgrade it together sometime next year as I want to use the Bord as a Media PC and she will probably want a more efficient CPU.
Forget the the small laptop, my eyes are on the 16" one. Definitely getting one next year. That laptop is a beauty.
I have a batch 1 pre-order in.
@@ElevatedSystems Ahm, a detailed review is coming of course? 😁
I've been watching Intel and AMD duke it out for a couple of decades. The competition has been good for us consumers, which I think your video illustrates perfectly.
A lot of great info here.
One that stood out is upgrading costs too much.
Framework should really take note on this one.
And Framework’s CEO is right about its main competitor being Apple. For me anyway, that’s exactly what I’m comparing it to!
Thanks CJ for the comprehensive video. How are your grandbabies? I can't wait to see your in depth review on Ryzen Framework. Please let me know if the bios has following settings:
- above 4G encoding
- Auto resize bar support
Installing Gentoo on mine right now. The battery life is pretty nice!
It's always such a bummer when you go back and look at the footage in post only to realize you had the focus set wrong in the intro shot.
Gawd, how I hate locked down BIOS/UEFI.
This thing has almost the same performance in Cinebench R23 as the Ryzen 5 7600x. Amazing job by AMD.
I have been rocking Manjaro KDE on the 11 gen board. Been looking forward to the upgrade. WOuld lvoe to see a Manjaro video.
Overall not a bad review, but I have to question some things:
1. Saying that the chassis is showing its age. Touchpad technology, screen technology, and speaker technology have not drastically changed int he past few years. It is true that the Framework may not have the absolute best of these (particularly the speakers) - but they are above average in the screen and touchpad areas, and also in other areas like the keyboard. Sure, I hope they can continue to upgrade and perfect everything about their laptops, but the fact remains: Either the original was usable, or it wasn't. If it was, then it still is. I for one would be perfectly happy to keep using my original chassis, top case, hinges, and all. The Touchpad is enough better than my Thinkpad that I appreciate the difference.
2. The price discussion. Selling a used laptop is generally *very much* a losing proposition. As an example, if you buy a new laptop every two years, then you will (generally) be lucky to sell your laptop for half of what you bought it for. So, if you buy a $2000 laptop every two years, then you might be lucky and get $1000 for the old one. This means that if you could get a new motherboard for less than $1000, you are better off changing the motherboard - even without factoring in that you get to keep the older one. As the side of SSD and memory goes up, more and more of the cost of the PC goes into these, and so the argument for re-use goes up more and more if one or both of these can be re-used. Given that the motherboard can be repurposed into a new PC or sold onto someone else, that sweetens the deal further.
I think since the poster is making multiple videos about re-purposing the motherboard, this is well known.
To be honest, though, for "regular people", I would focus on the repair-ability aspect more than the upgrad-ability aspect when "selling it" to them. Apple and others had done research showing that most people never actually upgraded their PC, and hence it was "okay" to solder everything onto the board. I'm sure this is true in the sense that people who aren't interested in computers, but just use them, are less likely to open them up and change out things like even the RAM or SSD, much less the motherboard. Telling my aunt, for example "This laptop is really cool because you can swap out the motherboard" is likely to be met with a blank stare.
On the other hand, explaining that "If you ever break this laptop, or part of it fails, I can fix it for you for pretty quickly & inexpensively and without losing your data in most cases. If you choose a Macbook or many other PC laptops, it will probably mean a very costly complete replacement where you will be without your laptop for days or maybe weeks". Especially if they have ever had a laptop break in the past, this should be something they understand.
Not only that, but when they do sell a framework used in order to buy a new laptop, dealers of used goods and repair shops can easily mix and match parts to do the upgrading that people wouldn't do on their own, and so things still can get saved from the land fill - which is the most unique aspect to me.
You can give your used laptop to someone, and they will probably keep it for a year or so before giving it to their kid for a year or so - but after that, it's likely to end up in a landfill - especially if it breaks. Because the framework is completely repairable and fixable, basically only truly obsolete and/or broken parts should ever end up in the landfill - and hence why we should all do our best to keep using the original chassis if we can.
Regarding the cost: for most "normal" users, they'll use whatever they have for as long as it's working and supported. Those costs that you experienced would normally be stretched out over the course of a 5-7 year time span representing minor replacements, repairs, and upgrades here and there; rather than annual upgrades like you experienced. Most people don't find a need to upgrade their computer unless it's no longer doing what they want. Additionally, as Framework laptops increase in number and the more often parts are replaced, those old parts will start to hit Ebay as cheap replacements that will allow someone to recoup the cost on, and provide *someone* a cheap upgrade.
Just wanted to provide an alternate point of view.
Also, Halo Infinite testing plz? 🥺
I was just going to say, this right here. Plus, in a few years when they have a Zen5 and Zen6 upgrade (here's hoping), people can upgrade from an older original Intel to a Zen4 board for hundreds less. I don't know how long Framework plans to make compatible upgrades, but 3 gens so far is great. Ultimately, it's about the repairability, which not many others offer. The upgrades are icing
Hello, nice video! could you test in an other video if the AMD Framework works with an eGPU?
I'm looking forward to your Linux tests. I would be interested in Ubuntu 23.10, Fedora 39 and latest OpenSUSE Tumbleweed release.
Can't wait for the Linux review! Thank you CJ!
Framework With the New Snapdragon ARM Base SOC is basically A Big Big Game Changer
Any chance an external GPU enclosure would work with the usb4 ports?
It works, not sure how well. I'll be testing in my gaming review.
i hope framework will also make ultrabooks in the future. don't want to use another device for just reading PDFs on a couch
Really good video, nice work! And what about testing Dead by daylight on that 780m gpu ?
For Linux, I'd love to see if NixOS performs significantly differently from other Linux distros.
I went from Fedora to Nix a few months ago, the boot time is significantly faster
Everything else seems to be similar
I wonder if you also use that Macbook Pro as your desktop setup as you did use a Mac Studio at one point (so it might also be more convenient to have one device for everything instead of having to switch between devices).
I do wonder how much better battery life LPDDR brings, but it sadly doesn't exist as modules to replace like regular DDR. As that is also a difference between Macs and Framework.
For the linux OS tests, I'd love to see PopOS in them again
Really helpful video! What about video out over USB-C? Can a multi-port dock use a single USB-4 cable to charge the AMD Framework 13 while also driving two 4K monitors? If so, 60hz limit or 144hz ability for two (or more) 4k monitors over a single cable to a capable USB-4 dock, like over Thunderbolt 3/4 cable using a capable Thunderbolt dock for the Intel 13th Gen Framework? How "good" are those two rear ports with USB-C modules installed? Also would love any info about AMD benchmark performance versus Intel 13th Gen Framework.
I have a few TB4 And USB4 docks and two egpu's I'll be testing in my gaming review.
oh lets go cant wait@@ElevatedSystems
Right now the cost of a new mainboard to upgrade to is really unreasonable mainly due to the new adopter tax, but I would expect its price to fall fairly quickly when newer mainboards come out just like how they did with the 11th gen, so perhaps an argument could be made there for its currently high price.
you can actually manage tdp of amd laptop cpus with ryzenadj.
It's not worth it on the U series processors. The cooling isn't robust enough to handle higher sustained TDP, push it over 25 to 28 and it just hits thermal limits and throttles anyway. I can use it with my cooler mod though.
Great review, interested in EndeavourOS/ArchLinux and Pop OS distros
Great video. Not got a Framework... Yet. I would like the 16" one with the GPU, but not cheap. Would dual boot with Windows and Linux Mint. The only reason for Windows is DCS...
Ah such a tough choice between this and the m2 MacBook Air for a similar price.
I can’t decide if the better battery/screen makes up for the fact that the MacBook won’t be repairable or replaceable battery when it degrades, or upgradable when it gets slow…
Brilliant bit of kit repairable nice my friend had a computer shop pile of laptops out the back no parts non fixable waste of parts tip fill
I didn't really feel the need to upgrade my Framework 12th Gen, some optimisation on the Linux side can push it further to around 8 hours. That being said, my laptop is borrowed to a relative for school so I got a 2nd hand Thinkpad X280. I loved the feel of the body and keyboard, wish there was an option for that on the Framework 13 chassis too.
Could you test fedora and debian testing?
Test SteamOS? 🤔 I think it's officially released?
So I never thought i would say this, but, honestly, between the battery life, performance and heat it's hard to justify a windows thin and light. And while it is possible that the next gen of ARM windows laptops might solve this problem or maybe later x86 mobile processors. The only thing keeping me on Windows is the lack of good raytracing support because for everything else Apple is as good if not better than the competition. And while I love how repairable Framework is. The perfomance is not where I want it to be. The 16 inch might change my mind but I do 3D character modeling and rendering. So I have a very specific set of requirements.
I would be interested to see how this laptop handles Debian. Great review, anyway. Thanks 👍
If its noise and heat that bothering you than simply use a Notebook Cooler , the Notebook Fans are relativly tiny and have to spin fast to pump air into the Laptop = noisy , my Notebook Cooler has too slim 140 mm fans which blow cold Air from beneath the Laptop into the Laptop which support the Laptop Fans , powered only by USB . That will bring the Temps down and with it the noise from the Laptop Fans .
Good angle with comparing MacBook to this one. But you haven't stated if the upgrade made you reconsider this one to be once again your daily
Great content! Thank you for the video!
Im requesting Deep Rock Galatic to be tested in your gaming review. Be sure to get lots of enemies on screen!
I'd love to see if frameworks could also offer an AIO version. I'm not a big fan of the small laptop screens and love to have much room on my desktop. I find commercially available AIOs annoying as you can't upgrade them. They tend to be annoying to service and upgrade. For now I use a mini pc vesa mounted to a monitor but would prefer the better performance most AIOs can bring.
Alright, this is gonna determine if I'm gonna have to explain a $1000+ purchase to my wife when the credit card statement arrives in two weeks. (Typing this before I even watched anything of the video)
You need to test the traditional Crysis Remastered, Arkham Knight and few other older computer buster games. I love playing these older stress test games on current gen hardware.
Linux Mint Mate, elementary OS and some Manjaro flavored Linux. They're the ones I rock or us the most other than the server stuff.
I'm not ordering today but as soon as I see an update BIOS/software to fix up the few issues, as well as seeing more 7640u reviews.
Note: AFAIK the AI accelerator will NOT help when training most models.
It helps when you've got a finished model and want to use it (so on device AI stuff).
The issue is that the accelerator only accelerates integer calculations. Meanwhile, for training, you usually need float calculations. The ability to smoothly change variables is very important when you're training.
Afterwards you can often adopt that algorithm you found to work on Integer units. But during training the inability to adjust the stepsize is highly problematic.
There are limited use cases where the Integer units will help, usually that is the case if you've got a heterogenous model, where you just reuse an model (that has an Integer variant) without modifying it. But that is often fairly limiting.
The same issue applies to (Google) Coral AI accelerators BTW.
The page you were looking at is meant for developers that want to target a Ryzen Processor as target platform for deployment.
Without that nothing would happen at all. But considering how absent other features are that devs would like, I'm dubious whether that will work out for them, mainstream projects aside (but these mainstream projects, such as Windows, already know what to do, so that page doesn't help with that).
It is great that we can swap between AMD and Intel CPUs, but I wonder if we can in the future swap between architecture, like put in ARM CPUs or RISC-V CPUs.
I love the fan noise just as expected from amd i got mini pc with amd ryzen 5 and never in my life hearing the fan noise
I actually couldn't reset my PIN even with the ethernet adapter, and had to do a fresh install of Windows to complete my upgrade. Fortunately, I backed up my data on an external drive beforehand, and I was up and running soon enough. I'm using my original 55W battery from my 11th Gen laptop, and was able to get 8+ hours of light work right out of the box (including an hour or so of playing Stellaris to test the graphics & fan, which was silent).
Windows has issues. I should have been able to connect to WiFi to reset mt pin, but clicking on the network icon on the bottom right of the screen did nothing.
Could you test StarCraft2? it's an old game at this point, but the one that I usually play on my laptop. Other games I play on my desktop with a beefier GPU.
Also, when you test Linux, could you add Julia programming language to the tests?
Wow, Julia, that's niche! What do you do in it ?
I use mine to play Stormworks - am planning to buy another but can't deside to go with Intel or AMD??
I would love to see how Satisfactory plays in it.
16:13 Huh, that's weird. According to NotebookCheck, the AMD Framework pulled less maximum power than the Intel ones during their stress tests, and it stayed below 60W, with a maximum of 55W. Similarly, Phoronix tested another 7840U laptop and it only drew 30W peak, compared to over 70W for the i7-1280P!
Is is possible your charger/cable is defective? Did you test with another 60W charger/cable combination? You could also try monitoring the power input either via software or a USB tester.
Even Framework states that the 60W charger isn't sufficient for the AMD Mainboard when off battery, and recommends a 100W power source. This indicates the board draws over 60W and needs the battery to suppliment under heavy sustained load which is what my testing showed.
You should try borderlands 3 it runs on switch so it should go decent on framework 13
I've ordered the 7640U based one a few days ago. I wanted to give Framework a try. I appreciate the sustainability of the design, but I do worry about the heat and power
That said, I was looking at a Dell XPS with Intel 125H as the alternative, and I assume they probably thermal throttle constantly with such a thin design. Issue with modern laptops. Naturally the M3 is one of the better choices, but MacBook Air is the same price range as the FW and at 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage, it's a bit of a cheeser
What did you end up with?
Would love to see how it handles Total War Warhammer 3
For games, how about some old goodies? Fallout 4, Skyrim, Diablo 2 remaster, etc...
Great video Sir !
Please help me with a link to buy the 13.5 framework with the latest update in the market today
Can you take a framework laptop,
Remove the motherboard, place a usb C hub inside
And use is as a portable Samsung Dex type of thing?
Razer had a prototype a few years ago, but now I think it is even more feasible