Actually I remember that in the movie version, the cake is a little less distracting because they actually try to fit it to the character. At the end of the shopping montage, Kara puts on a really skimpy dress and when Clark disapproves, she immediately says "Perfect. I'll take it." She has more agency and it feels more natural as a result.
Oh also the short-skirt-crop-top look works better in the DCAU timeline too, because her first outfit, that she presumably made herself, was basically the same look, so it seems like the look was her choice.
I think the problem with drawing Supergirl in a suggestive way vs. Nightwing is that she is often portrayed as a teenager while Nightwing is almost always portrayed as a full adult, so fanservice involving Supergirl often feels very gross.
Also, IMHO, I don't feel you can truly compare tights...even really tight tights...with near nudity and...crawling-up-'areas'... skimp. Especially with regards to teenagers!
And yet, by the same token, we have a cartoon movie with Harley Quinn - who was an adult doctor for many years (supposedly) working at Arkham not only getting 'turned on' by Nightwing BECAUSE he used to be "The Boy Wonder all grown up", but its strongly intimated that they slept together in that feature. She should be at least 10 years older than him, and quite possibly knew him as a child (although in the RW we know that she was created after Nightwing became a thing, but canon has been rebooted so many times, plus she has no idea he was a different Robin). Seems like Nightwing had no end to number of girls who's butt-cheeks were always hangin' out to choose from.
@natma relnam When it is of explicitly underage girls, yes. Some of these pictures, if done with an actress the actual age Kara is supposed to be, would be arguably illegal. Especially in situations where ahe is clearly in distress. As a father to a teenage girl, I may be a bit more sensitive than others, but this often crosses the line of good taste.
@@jamesmac357 Okay, then don’t have the character be underage then (I wouldn’t have a real issue with the art if it was done with an actual adult character like Wonder Woman). Also, it shouldn’t distract from the story being told (which it definitely does during these issues of Supergirl).
@@jackkelly9048 That was post Loeb...and it's a blur after that, sorry can't help _edit:_ post-Loeb, same iteration, definitely pre-Flashpoint, may have been right before New Krypton, or after...?
Did you see the calls for DC and Marvel to put their differences aside to reprint JLA/Avengers and give the proceeds to charity, and trusts for his family. Very sweet. I hope it happens.
@@CasuallyComics It would also be amazing if the "final mass signing" he mentioned in his announcement actually happens. We would make plans to drop everything and head down to Florida for the homage. Peréz is the king!
@@CasuallyComics oh I’d buy that in a speedster’s heart beat if they were to follow through on it. Sadly doubt it but if they somehow do make a momentary compromise it would really be a lovely send off to an amazing Comic Book icon.
I love how casually you drop these vids to coincide with whatever is going on in the real world with these characters. Uploading this at the perfect time to go with the end of the Supergirl CW series but also feeling like it's just something that was on your mind. You're really good at this
and she handles the topics so elegantly. like,the first video of her's i saw was when she talked about the whole "i'm not starfire" thing because i wanted to know if it was actually as bad as people claimed or if it was just fanboys overreacting again but i couldn't find anyone talking about it that wasn't being super bias so it was REALLY nice to find someone that could actually talk about it on it's own merits rather than just be like "this suck i hate it and you should too". it was refreshing and that's why i like these videos. plus her ability to turn a phrase is fun to listen to.
I think the main issue with 'I'm not Starfire' is that the writer basically self inserted herself into the story and it had very little to do with Starfire at all and just use the name so it could sell. Not everyone likes that kind of thing.
@@LegendarySpaceRipper the problem with "i'm not starfire" is that it just wasn't good: the main character was VERY unlikeable (and she was mean to starfire and that's just unforgiveable on it's own),the story was very basic,i can't even remember any other characters but the main character (who's name i also don't remember),it tried to make being part alien some weird "race" thing and it fell into a lot of teen tropes including the final battle being on the school football field. it just wasn't good but i'm glad i found that out from HER and not someone just complaining out of some bias. her unbias opinion gave me a clear view of it and i thank her.
@@JT5555 same, the toxicity of the star wars, fandom over me "liking the wrong ones", it legit sucked all my interest in future star wars projects over the past 3 years. I love discussing the media I watch online, but that fandom made that so hard and were so hateful to the point of me finally giving up on enjoying the franchise and making friends through it one day... I still love and adore the movies and shows, but I don't think I'll ever call myself a star wars fan again, because of the connotations. All over something so silly at the end of the day, who should care what their fav trilogy, movie, or canon is, we all love the same franchise
For me the "changes" in Supergirl are quite striking, as for me she was first Superman's cousin, and sometimes girlfriend of Brainiac (Legion of Super-Heroes). Then she was, also Power-Girl. Then... it got confusing and more beef-cake, which I didn't appreciate cause they seemed, to me, to keep making her less. Less old, less wise, less knowledgeable, less Kryptonian, less costume. I for one like my characters to grow. As always thank you so very much for the video. (And, I think, there's always time for Ollie!)
Power-Girl kept getting rebooted and then settled with her being Kara from a different reality where Kara got to Earth and out of suspended animation far earlier than she did and was a full-grown woman in her home universe around the same time the prime universe Supergirl showed up and came out of suspended animation as a teen. And I think she was created because too many people got mad that Supergirl never stopped being a teen during the era that even Marvel's teen hero Spider-Man became a man.
@@That80sGuy1972 The original Brainiac (a cybernetic organism) has a 12th level intellect, as does the Coluan decendents of his adopted Coluan son Brainiac 2 (Vril Dox). Brainiac 5 is the descendant in the Legion of Superheros in the 31st century. Brainiac 8 was another cybernetic creation of the original Brainiac from the future.
I always love the panel of Big Barda talking with the Big 3 during the Supergirl arc bc of how much she just towers over Superman and he has to levitate to yell at her😆😆
@@MRWHO-gt8zo Actually....she already got it. In a very disturbing and sleazy way. Thanks to a villain who was LITERALLY named Sleaze. Sasha, please do a video on this sordid episode, and be sure to scold Mr. Byrne for this.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited to see which outfit Sasha wears in every new video. Like I'm here for the comic knowledge and content but the absolute BANGER fashion and makeup, keep me coming back.
I don't think that characters having sexy outfits is inherently bad, but imo it works better for some characters than for others, and it works for some scenarios better than others. For me, when someone dresses sexy in a way that's out of character, or the comic seems to care more about cake than it does the plot is when it goes too far. I do love me some cake most of the time, but not all cake is equal.
@@gracieloufreebush4899 Which era? In post crisis, there were two versions of supergirl that were teenagers when they were introduced. If we’re talking about the Verizon of Kara in the video, then she would be 15-16 like the majority of other mainstream teenage superheroes at the time.
One thing no one ever mentions is that the revised Supergirl origin (being born on Krypton, taking a long time to get to Earth) is actually Power Girl's first origin. They completely swiped it when they brought Supergirl back. To me the only real Supergirl is the one born in Argo City years after Krypton exploded.
Fun observation that most people had when that version was out. Artists like Mike Turner and Ian Churchill basically made Supergirl Britney Spears in her career prime. Loeb and other writers basically used the marketing of pop icons like Spears, Aguilera, and Simpson to sell Supergirl using taglines from Rolling Stone, MTV, and the WB. The character grew as the fame of who she borrowed from diminished. 2005-2006 Britney wasn’t a time people wanted to emulate so writers shifted her arc to being more about identity issues and making her own way.
You know, I had just been wondering where Sasha from Top 10 Nerd went off to. Until some kind soul pointed me to casually comics. I missed you so much Sasha, I'm so happy to be here and thanks for being a great hostess.
I"m the rare monster that loves the Matrix Supergirl era. It was absolutely nuts, very Peter David, and featured some great art at times. It kinda went off the rails towards the end, but it was definitely an interesting idea. Just found the channel. Love your mix of good information and humor. It is a great fit for the topic. Definitely looking forward to checking out your other videos.
Yeah, I definitely found this a bit creepy...I mean that shot of naked Kara with Superman's cape is so similar to that shot of Lois from For Tomorrow in the exact same pose. The connotation is supposed to be different (I hope) but it's just...weird.
I always appreciate sasha Trying to diffuse tension when she cover stuff like this by listing off all the different ways of seeing it. It's one of the main reasons I watch this channel over other comic channels. Like she obviously has her own opinions on it but respects that there are others and that's brilliantly shown in by the fact "your milage may vary" is basically her catch phrase!
Way back when Linda Lee lived in the orphanage she had a Linda Lee robot who was stashed in a nearby hollowed out tree. When Linda wanted to be Supergirl she ordered the robot to take her place and pretend to be her in the orphanage. Then back in the tree when Supergirl returned home. Whatever happened to the robot? Is she still in the tree? Does she get lonely and wonder why nobody ever calls? What if she got tired of waiting, left the tree and got a room in the orphanage, then was adopted by new parents every issue who soon discover they've now got a 63 year old teenage robot as the heir to their family lumber business, or whatever. Here is an idea waiting for the moment to be rediscovered. Free of charge, I have no copyright on this idea.
@@Clell65619 That would lend itself to lots of enticing ethics debates. Silver Age Kryptonians were forbidden to marry their cousins, however robot "cousin" weddings take us to a gray area. Rebelling against Kryptonian culture is a plus. How about a retro early 60s vibe, sort of "My Favorite Martian" meets "The Patty Duke Show" meets unsold pilot "Adventures of Superboy". Set in the orphanage where scenes would recall the Patty and Cathy slumber parties. Disappointed parents return Linda Lee robot for various reasons, eg the electricity bills are skyrocketing because she is constantly recharging. (Again, this idea is free, but please make me a character, like the orphanage groundskeeper (Willy?), the wise and wise-cracking elder privy to all their secrets. Or one of the orphan boys who pines for Linda Lee robot and wonders what she'd be like as a blonde!) BTW if that pilot is still unsold someone ought to buy it.
@@daverhoden445 Perhaps it could a little bit. But in order to sell to Generation Cake we need a fresh origin. How about some way out there culture-war drama? The Kents move from the farm to Smallville. Puberty age Clark lacks friends so he utilizes Kryptonian science to create a robot, a female twin of himself he calls Linda Lee. He stashes her in a tree when not "needed". His parents understand, at first, he needs a friend to talk to. Then Ma and Pa Kent suspect he considers Linda Lee robot a possible "love" interest, wink wink. What they do not discover until the season finale is that Clark is pretending, true to form, actually hiding yet another secret: Linda Lee is the transgender version of Clark, and he considers advanced Kryptonian surgery to make it so. But Ma and Pa are horrified and disown Clark (Linda Lee), so they return him to the orphanage they had used 12 years before (after they found him in the crashed rocket). Season two, the Kents are written out; Clark now lives in the orphanage, goes to high school and fights crime as Superboy, but in the nearby woods waits his Linda Lee robot stashed in another tree. Although super--intelligent Clark is a poor speller due to exposure to Kryptonite, so whenever he re-programs Linda Lee he puts her on "otto-pilot" (some Binder humor here). He is still wanting the Kryptonian surgery to become truly Linda, but the only surgeon capable is in the Phantom Zone doing time for -- what else? robot abuse (this was Silver Age General Zod's original crime, if memory serves) Season 3: Clark has arranged for his Linda Lee robot, now blonde so they don't look like twins, to get a room at the orphanage. The Kents make a dramatic return to the orphanage and adopt the Linda Lee robot, not recognizing her after her hair change. So the joke's on them -- they're delighted they've replaced a transgender son with the blonde girl they always wanted, but she's really the robot they knew from the tree. Clark is sad to lose Linda Lee from the orphanage, but he creates another model for his future look -- a red-headed robot named Lana. Hey, it's all about suspension of disbelief, people.
Context and framing are always key. Even beyond fanservice anything overt or 'extra' can take the reader totally out of the story, for me the focus needs to include having all of your characters be 3 dimensional and not just there as a prop for the sake of being attractive or useful for moving the plot along. Characters can have strong sex appeal intentionally, it can be a part of the character by design and influence how they act like with Jessica Rabbit and others like her, but a lot of the time in superhero comics I've found that sexuality is not often taken seriously, more so used just for fanservice. When a majority of superhero stories are action focused that can make sense but then it has to be considered if the timing and framing of such fanservice is appropriate as to not take the reader out of the book or create an environment where it seen as okay or justifiable to objectify female characters without regard for them deserving the same three dimensional representation that they should have. I heard good things about the New 52 Supergirl run and thought that the idea of Kara having an emotional instability which leads her to becoming a red lantern sounded super interesting. I picked up the first volume and it didn't take long at all for me to be thrown off by some panels that felt like they were going out of their way to show off Kara's body in a way that felt uncomfortable, I wasnt upset or anything like that but I simply wasn't expecting it when the tone of the intro and covers felt like had a clear self-seriousness about them. I do like fanservice but I find that it works best when it is used for more light hearted moments or when taking a breather from the main story so that the reader doesn't drown in intense/complex arcs. You need a filler issue every once in a while and to me fanservice thrives in moments like that. My favorite Supergirl and the version of her that made me want to explore runs in the comics is from Justice League: Unlimited, the animated show. Kara there is powerful, headstrong, and fun but is still conflicted about her role as a hero as well as being trained to refine her skills over the course of the show largely by John Stewart. Her send-off in S3 is celebratory, wrapping up her story lines from across the whole show and she has her share of romantic moments without it shifting the tone or feeling out of place. Her costume is not too different from what we've seen in these 2000s comics but she was never used purely as eye candy, at least as far as I can remember. I rewatched the whole show this year which sparked back to life my appreciation for several DC heroes. Imo it was an amazing take on Supergirl, well thought out and well executed, and one which I really do love. Edit* I do not mean to say or claim that all superhero comics fail to seriously consider and explore sexual themes within their books, I know they're out there. And I do plan to continue reading the New 52 Supergirl run anyways because it still does seem good.
i'm a anime fan (where fanservice is the rule rather than exception) and 100% agree that fanservice doesn't have to get in the way of a good story. but sadly,sometimes that's really all the writers WANT it to be (take queen's blade vs monster masume: both are SUPER fanservicey but difference is that while queen's blade still has it's story about a noblewoman with no battle training entering a battle tournament to became queen of the capital and help the poor people of her kingdom: monster masume is just about all the ways a human guy is trying not to have sexual relations with sexy monster girls because he'll get arrested if he does) and it can't be helped.
@@JT5555 I totally get what you mean, writers will always be finding different ways to include what will bring an audience in, some will handle it better than others but it all comes down to what kind of stories you as a reader/watcher are actually interested in.
Personally more serious themes are sabotaged due to creators of that storyline are normally unable to truly finish their vision in comics and somebody else has to do it. Even if manga has a lot of cheesecake to outright smut-based works. It feels whole due to you know there was one vision from beginning to end.
@@jackkelly9048 pretty much. sadly americans (and the japanese) like girls with big boobs and small brains so that tends to lead to some less than great storytelling in the process (not all the time: poison ivy is a known seductress that has not problems using her body to get what shew want's but she also used to be a scientist,is a expert at creating toxins and is not entirely wrong on her views of humanity). all just kinda depends on how good the writer is at their job to be able to balance story with sexiness.
I was quite aware of it in the 70's and 80's, but then in 2004, Michael Turner layed it in thick, and it kept on going. In the movie adaptation in 2010, it's toned down a bit, and the CW series, it's practically non-existent, even her final costume with pants (which isn't a bad look, especially if she transitions into "Superwoman" permanently). There's cake, and then their jailbait, there's a clear difference. (Also, Steve Englehart... With Mantis, Arisia, and this, my man, calm down lol)
To be fair, a big part of Kara's skirt-with-pants costume in the CW's Supergirl is because Melissa Benoist complained. Something about it being *very* cold in Vancouver in the winter. Apparently pretty windy too.
@@vic5015 That would make sense. I will never forgive the way they did it tho because she made her costume in the first episode after going through all the diff comic ones. When she gushes and all but shrieks "PANTS!!!", it was just cringy like "You made your outfit and gave yourself the skirt and had leggings too..."
You are so right that there's no way Ma Kent made that outfit for her. I thought the same thing when that comic was new. In the '80's, John Byrne depicted Kryptonians as always wearing big heavy outfits that they never took off, and DC went from that to having the girl straight from Krypton be a nudist.
Ok while I enjoy the super hero girls (which honestly surprised me like really the show is actually hilarious and enjoy the friendship and the characters and the music and how they introduce some characters) Kara is kinda just a typical bad/ punk girl Which isn’t bad but isn’t the really Kara
@@painvillegaming4119 I respectfully disagree. Supergirl once had a Red lantern ring. So canonically she has the rage within her. Which she expresses through her love of punk rock. 😈
@@bobstewart1832 I mean :…..even a cat has a red lantern ring …..which is also in the show and has the deepest voice since edris Elba knuckles Kara rage was different Point is different situation Also I do also have another problem with the Kara I’m the show My problem is other then the episode were they dealt with superman and Kara trying to get out of his shadow she is just kinda there Zatana has that mystery behind her with magic Barbara …..is the best character in the show fight me the haul time travel stuff with Barry and Barry take it kills me with how over the top it is Bumblebee is learning how to be strong Jess has the haul pacifist thing going for her which brings interesting dynamics with Kara Also her dynamic with hal is brilliant Mostly with the episode where sinistro appears and he is downright simping for Hal And Diana well diana doesn’t have much going for her either except she is the perfect student and the fish out of water They really could do way more with both I do enjoy it but they do much with either Barbara had the haul harley thing going recently and zatana has the haul magic stuff locked and mother stuff which being intrigue
I really liked that Superman/Batman series with Kara's return, but the cake was thick. I remember thinking "But she's an innocent teenager! Why so sexy?" I think for me it was an issue of characterization. My expectation of supergirl was that she have we have a certain "golden-agey" personality. There was this cognitive dissonance between how she was acting and what the artist was focusing focusing on. It seemed vioristic.
I always loved the storylines where Kara was portrayed as a character that can give us more aspects of Kryptonian culture (being that she was older than Clark when being launched). Honestly the Krypton exploration was one of the CW series’ best qualities despite its faults. Plus the PANTS 😂 I mean Jesus I’ll never get over how much better she looks in the later seasons. In terms of cake, for me it’s in the wardrobe. Like a character in a skirt when everyone else has Krypton techy-suits just isn’t practical 😂 At least Wonder Woman’s newer costume has the Greek armor vibe, Nightwing is a gymnast so his costume makes more sense.
I´ll admit I miss the eye-candy outfits. But yeah, objectively, for practical purposes, pants are probably better. But with characters with short/revealing outfits, I always wonder: What´s *their* reason for it? Distracting on purpose? Just don´t care? Want to look hot? ...
Supergirl's (and Mary Marvel's) skirt has been grandfathered in like Superman's trunks. They're costume design choices you don't see in new heroes unless it's a homage or parody of old design choices. They get away with it because they're old characters and their costumes are too iconic. Every time DC has tried to remove these elements from their costumes in the main continuity have been met with lukewarm reactions and walked back a few years later. Personally, I think superhero costumes should prioritize aesthetics and symbolism over practicality (unless its supposed to be a gritty series or has to compromise for live action), especially with invulnurable characters that give artists more wiggle room for readers' suspension of disbelief. The image of an all powerful teenage girl flying around and kicking ass in a skirt is a more powerful image than if she were wearing armor. If you have an iconic look, there's no reason to change it when it markets itself. Magical Girl series use a design philosophy of "the power of the feminine" when designing their costumes and gear. That's the lens I use when looking at Supergirl's outfits. She expresses her personality through the designs (outside of the line about Ma Kent making her suit here, the Pre- and Post-Crisis eras show her designing new costumes in her spare time), as such her most iconic costumes are fun and appear more at home at a trip to the park than a battlefield. To me, the Supers' suits should look soft to the touch. Something that wouldn't make people hesitate to jump into their arms. All attempts to deviate from these design principles have fallen flat to me. It's hard to make the soft material look good (or at least not cheap) in live action, so they keep trying to add uncomfortable-looking textures (I'm not fond of any of the live action Super-suits, with Brandon Routh's Kingdom Come suit coming the closest to doing them right, and the Reeve/Slater suits have the advantage of older camera quality hiding the imperfections). The choice to make them ceremonial armor in the New 52 was one of the more tone deaf, IMO, too militaristic.
@@johnyshadow There is an old Titans (I think) panal where Donna tries to explain the concept of modesty to Kory. If someone is invulnerable then clothing is just fashion and practicality doesn't enter in to it. On the other hand, male Heros are fully dressed even when invulnerable.
@@BrandonVout I do see your point when it comes to a cultural aesthetic. I guess my problem doesn’t lie so much in the material (cause you’re right it’s not like their Krypton clothes came from any military) I guess my main problem is how the wardrobe is drawn in comparison to her figure. That being merged with the more 2D storytelling that was exemplified in this video. Like in the end I guess her original costume can work but when you can see the whole outline of her cleavage and she’s always angled under-skirt, it makes me question if artists actually wanna respect the character
Honestly the difference is between nightwing and Supergirl in this context is that he is an adult. I am not the biggest fan of cheesecake but I can tolerate it with adults, specifically if it it fits the characters like say Marvel's enchantress or Catwoman
@@snorpenbass4196 Yeah I'm reading n52 nightwing rn, dude definitely an adult cause if he wasn't I'd be side eying the artists cause oboy do they love to sexualize nightwing.
Everyone should read Supergirl: Woman of tomorrow. It’s a limited series that hasn’t finished yet but the portrayal of her character is the best i’ve read! The art is also mind blowing.
IMO it's the constant focus on Kara's age that makes the stories so strained. If she's 5 years older the stories still have a certain pin up factor but because she's an adult there's (possibly) less objections over how she's pictured.
I freaking HATE when lazy writers take this character who's a literal alien from a humanoid species that has nothing to do with out planet and actually grew up in her own culture among her own people before arriving to Earth, but they still make her a stereotypical airhead American teenage girl. Why the hell would she think and act like that?
I'd say the arguments there's a bit too much cake in Kara's early pre-Nu52 return are justified. While the artist's style did lean that way, there's lots of shots from that early run which were heavily leaning to the fanservice. Once Sterling Gates and James Ingle took over, that aspect was toned down considerably, with them even going as far as to introduce the...Skort! Which way too many people freaked out about. Overall, my biggest issue as SG fan during her initial return was the way they characterized and tried to use Kara. As said, different interruption of characters is fine, but the way they portrayed her just didn't sit well with me. Sure, have some culture clash or Kara being frustrated by trying to adjust to life on Earth. The fact she grew up on Krypton and thus, Earth would be alien to her, is a great area to explore. However, the DC higher ups seemed to not know what to do with her, so she was all over the place in motivations, personality, and stuff. It took Gates to sort of right the ship and give me a Supergirl I enjoyed. His run, especially the 'Who is Superwoman' arc for Kara, was a great one. As to the issue with Hal there, yeah that was a mess. Better way to handle it would have been to more show, Kara has a crush but eventually sort of gets why Hal doesn't feel the same way. Maybe with them becoming friends or at least, avoiding the uncomfortableness you highlighted. I never knew about that issue but seeing Kara in that outfit at the gladiatorial arena...yikes. My fav runs for Kara Zor-El Supergirl have been Sterling Gates's stuff, both for the Nu52 and then his TV tie-in Adventures of Supergirl. The early Nu52 stuff for Supergirl, though again, they started meddling with her, leading to more BS. And Sasha if you need another dumb comic controversy to look into, the Supergirl Skort stuff was pretty dumb. Great vid and love your stuff!
I don't know about you, but if I see a little girl with a plushie walk confidently into a battle arena where giants are getting murked, I'm betting on her! You can also just put the Will Smith Hogan's Alley speech from Man in Black here.
@JTSG The Jeph Loeb run also made very questionable decisions/choices with Supergirl's character 1) Supergirl leaving power girl to save the people of Kandor 2) Jeph Loeb Supergirl destroying and mocking the Silver age Supergirl 3) retconning Kara's reason from protecting him to actually being sent to kill him 4) Turning her father evil 5) Kara turning into a party girl after giving up being a hero after a botched mission with The Outsiders goes wrong due to her literally freezing up & Ignoring orders from Arsenal 6) Being a party girl and not being a superhero
What Sasha doesn't get into is how we got this Kara (which I have always pronounced the way the tv series doesn't): Peter David had been writing the Matrix Supergirl for years, but wanted to bring back the classic one. DC said "no", but he talked them into bringing her back for ONE short storyline, gambling that the fan response would be so great, DC would be stupid not to let him make it permanent. The version he wrote in that storyline was very in-line with the sweet, "nice girl" original character...and fans *loved* her! So, DC gave in...with two conditions. 1) They fired David/cancelled his book, and 2) they gave the project to Loeb, who immediately decided that "nice" Supergirl was old fashioned and boring and gave us the sexed up, "bad girl" version, which exactly *nobody* had asked for. Took a while for DC to correct this, but you can't convince me that, on some level, they weren't doing this out of spite...
@Hand-of-Omega Good news is the comic improve once Sterling Gates took over BUT Jeph Loeb had done considerable damage to Supergirl's character with turning Kara into "sexed up" edgy teenager who hits on GL & Nightwing (even if there is a age gap) & was a bad hero with her literally leaving power girl behind to save the civilians of Kandor & trying to talk new superhero Tara (no relation to Tara Markov) out of being superhero & saving people to Instead just Party
@Hand-of-Omega Peter David deserve more respect and DC should be ashamed of themselves for what they did like The Matrix era of Supergirl what's the most popular era of the character so much so that the Supergirl from Superman the animated series had her design inspired by the Linda Danvers version from the comics
@@naquingreen1603 Minor nit: the STAS Supergirl had the white shirt first. After Linda and Matrix split, Linda started wearing the white-shirt costume from the animated series. That said, I thoroughly agree that Peter David deserves more credit. His run of Supergirl was so good, it lasted longer than every other Supergirl comic series that DC has ever published. It even had more issues than all of the pre-Crisis Supergirl series COMBINED. People tend to sweep his series under the rug because "she wasn't from Krypton like the pre-Crisis Supergirl", forgetting that the pre-Crisis Supergirl was never popular or well-written enough to carry a book on her own for very long. The only reason Supergirl isn't a forgotten character today is because (a) the pre-Crisis Supergirl had such a memorable death scene that people developed instant nostalgia, and (b) PAD wrote a popular, interesting comic that revived interest in the character.
He did a good job of distinguishing him from the Super Family, by making her a (sort of) angel who dealt with supernatural matters. I wasn't watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer at the time, so it was a while before I realized just how much he "homaged" from that show...("Buzz" for "Spike", smh)
@@HandofOmega Buzz was introduced in 1996. Spike first appeared about a year later, in late 1997. Does Peter David have a time machine, which he used to homage things that hadn't happened yet? Most likely, Buzz and Spike were independent creations. But if there was any copying taking place, then it was the other way around: Spike would have been influenced by Buzz, not vice-versa.
@@danmerget Yeah! That's right. I thought that Supergirl preceded the Buffy TV show. They were just close together. And had similar characters and themes.
Peter David's 90's Supergirl remains one of my favourite comic-book series of all time (in general, not just Supergirl books). It's just such a shame that it ended on such a sad note (and with another of those alternate Kara/Supes hook-ups because awkward). Not long after that, the "original" Supergirl was re-introduced as discussed in the video above, and there was no room for Linda to return to the DCU in any capacity. (Someone going by her name and with powers that she no longer had in-continuity did rock up in 2008's Reign in Hell. But it wasn't a Linda than anyone who had ever read even just one issue of her book would have recognised).
I love Matrix Supergirl. Her character dealt with identity and gender in a way that was about 30 years ahead of its time. And she stars on two of my favorite covers of all time, Superman II 21 and Action 644. I particularly love that she's not Supes' biological cousin, but instead his adoptive sister, since she is also "raised" by Ma & Pa Kent. Would LOVE to see you cover The Supergirl Saga of 1987 sometime... (Only 3 issues, but so much happens.)
It's specially uncomfortable considering she's a teenager, and she was kept drawn as this over sexualized teen girl, which considering how the character has never been taken seriously by writers, it really makes you think Supergirl only exists to have a hot sexy girl in the pages and that's it. Her story? Doesn't matter. Her difficulty with fitting on Earth because she lived in Krypton most of her life, with ingrained culture and ways of living? Doesn't matter, let's just make her a "born sexy yesterday" trope and do stereotypical teenage girl stuff. Her feelings on how her entire planet and civilization were wiped out entirely? Doesn't matter, let's just make Superman be the one who mourns the death of Krypton even though he never knew the planet, while the one character that did live there, knew the culture and people, will just be there as a sexy lamp and will never explore her feelings.
Feels like one of those times when you probably should just hand it off to a female writer. Get the character on track and establish them with a writer that has some experience and connection with the character.
This is the real tragedy of Supergirl for me, that they have story telling gold fall into their laps and they can't think of anything to do other than "female Superman sexy". Sexy isn't the problem (well, not the main problem), story is. So I was pretty happy when I found Stirling Gates' run, where Kandor is literally on earth being all upsetting to everyone with its thousands of Kryptonians that aren't nearly as nice as Kal El, and Kara is stuck in the middle. Finally, somebody cared about her story!
Great vid! Gotta pause at 19:17 for that amazing 90s-style pinup. Interesting to see the relationship Kara almost had with Hal Jordan, as well as the mention of Arisia. We love your histories of superheroines, Sasha - look for a package from Heroineburgh soon!
Sasha I Love you and your content. I had been looking for you on YT and couldn't find you until I saw the latest video from The Watchtower Database. So thank you for collaborating with James and the gang!!!
I think it really is a mixed bag. I like seeing hot girls and hot guys, I like fanservice, but I do feel like what they did to Kara was overkill a bit. Not to mention with Nightwing he was an adult I think when he started to become more...cheesecakey. Kara wasnt. I acknowledge she's a fictional character and that its fantasy for sure but I think it would've been a bit better if she was older. It was definitely clear the writers/pencillers were thirsty and showing a fantasy of sorts.
I feel like during this run there was so much cake it did detract from the weight of the stories in the main Supergirl book. There’s this element of Supergirl trying to find herself and define her role within the DCU, but it gets overshadowed by outside factors thanks to artistic choices.
In that Brave and Bold story, I suspect Mark Waid was very much aware of the problems with how Kara was being depicted at the time. And rather than just ignoring it, he apparently decided to tackle that uncomfortable subtext head-on. "Kara's being hyper-sexualized all the time for the readers' benefit, but nobody in the story ever seems to notice. Ok, this time they're going to notice." I don't think it was successful, but I give him credit for at least acknowledging the underaged elephant in the room...
Green Lantern being worried about Superman coming after any man who breaks Kara's heart sounds so silly. He knows Superman personally, he knows Superman would never harm anyone for such a reason. He'd have a serious talk with them at most. Also, that old panel of Superman thinking of his love interests all sharing the initials L.L.... Fits Lex Luthor too. Guess that's why they even had that son together.
I remember starting to read the Supergirl run when it was released, but there was a bit that made me uncomfortable. I much prefer her Rebirth costume. The new Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow book is superb.
I liked her in the new 52. Though when the new 52 launched thats when i really got into DC. I loved superboy and evne superman was interesting. I liked supergirl in rebirth as well, and am also enjoying Woman of Tomorrow, even though supergirl feels more like Red Sonja (at least in the first 3 issues) I have liked super girl for quite a while now and theres nothing wrong with her being a more sexy and more inexperienced and brash character. We dont need to cover every woman up to fight off the male gaze and all the other woke buzzwords . In reality fit and attractive women enjoy being seen and showing off a bit, just like guys do as well. Its natural.
Woman of tomorrow was my first supergirl comic, bought it last year, honestly one of my favourites, even my sister (who isn't really into comics at all) loved it, introduced her to supegirl and she's reading more online, truly an amazing book
If you're gonna do cake, don't do it with a character whom your emphasizing is a minor. Don't do it. Cheesecake, to a degree, is fine as long as the character is an adult.
"Ma Kent made that uniform" lol that reminds me of how in Batman And Robin (the movie) Alfred made a costume for Batgirl (his niece) and says "I took the liberty of getting your measurements my dear" followed up by the only closeup shot of a fake leather clad butt that's not a man's in Joel Schumacher's entire filmography
I little off topic: one of my favorite lines in the Batman/superman supergirl story is when supergirl and Batman are talking and supergirl tells him how he wouldn’t understand what it’s like being her, and Batman’s response is “then explain it to me until I do”. It’s such a great line and mindset when someone says “you won’t understand”.
I don't really have a problem with cheesecake, but a lot of people execute it poorly. Regardless of its "sexy" nature, cheesecake often sends vibes of being lighthearted and playful. Thus, it can take you out of the story when this fun/silly visual appears in something that is otherwise serious. It could be used for juxtaposition, but that's different from just being randomly out of place. On the other hand, I think there is sometimes too much hand-wringing about costume designs and wanting to make it so that super heroes can be "taken seriously." Generally, it's way more important that characters look like they're at home in their outfits than that they fit some external sense of practicality. (I think that's actually part of why Kitty Pryde has never landed on a motif for her supersuits (or her code name); she's most at home just being herself…but that's a different topic.)
I really liked Sterling Gates Supergirl run. It was exactly what the comic needed to be. Tom King's run was interesting. I'm not sure it was for me, but it was interesting. And despite Mark Waid writing that Brave and the Bold issue, he's doing a very good job handling Kara in the current World's Finest series.
I admit I am a man who loves his cheese cake, the cheesier the better for me, but you have to use it just right or else you’ll get a metaphorical tummyache, and having Supergirl be 17 and to be constantly reminded she’s 17 definitely sours the cake a little. It’s best for cheese cake to be used in a fun, action packed or, no pun intended, cheeky way lol the best example I’ve seen it used is how Paul Dini uses it, very winking at the camera sort of way. So give me all the cheese cake you can, just make sure it’s off age and not in a sad way, I want to be able to enjoy my cake to the fullest and not feel weird about it
I see it as Hals hangups due to his American upbringing. So he's repeating '17' to try to remind himself that he's not meant to find Kara attractive until some months later. In other countries (or even some States), you can be married with kids at 16. Same with Cousin marriage. It's really common for people in India to marry their cousins.
Goddamn, I fucking hate this era of Supergirl, and I love Supergirl. I especially hate how this was the version of Supergirl that was around when my kids were getting heavily into comics. It's misogynistic, it's creepy, it's pedophilic, it insults the intelligence of … everyone.
I think it is being presented the cake along with a bowl of innocence and naivete that gives it that cringe factor...almost like it is warping into a kind of pedophilia...you will notice that Dinah doesn't have that problem as Black Canary...lots of cake..but she is in complete control as well as self, and situationally aware. Anyways...this makes me happy for the current run of Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow...which I am hoping will define Kara's character for quite a while!!
I think in comics, everyone will end up being objectified at some point because many of the characters are usually wearing skin tight outfits that highlight a (what many consider to be) peak or ideal physique. However I do feel agency is important if we're talking about objectification leading to some kind of character development, empowerment or just having less squicky factor. Granted, like Sasha, I also enjoy going back to read more hot mess issues. I find them funny and I do enjoy thinking through what could work there and what perhaps doesn't work for me and why. Also problematic things really can be funny -- oftentimes people laugh when they are uncomfortable. That's normal!
Context and the way it's handled. Selina Kyle has wore several skin tight leather outfits and often uses a whip, which heavily references S&M culture. It works with her because a) She is an extroverted person perfectly at ease with her sexuality and b) Because almost every time she is objectified by others it's by design so that they underestimate her and thus she retains agency instead of being a victim. Dick Greyson on the other hand copes, but it's far from comfortable, with the fact he is objectified by so many people including his own bloody mentor/father figure. "I would recognize that butt anywhere" -Batman And, most tragically, he has actually been reduced to an object and a victim. Like Starfire kissing him upon meeting him. Yes she was trying to learn his language but even then it doesn't change the fact she did it without his consent and later admitted he chose him because she was physically attracted to him. Btw, that's far from the only time Dick has been kissed without consent for a variety of contrived reasons. And worse of all? He is one of only a handful of DC heroes to have been raped and while Tarantula ends up in jail she is never charged for rape and Dick just kept it secret because he was actually ashamed of being sexually abused.
It seemed to me at this time that DC wanted to highlight strong women characters, but also was afraid they wouldn't sell so went with a lot of cake. I call it the Psylocke effect- X-Men's Psylocke had been a strong, well written character who dressed like a librarian. And she was British. Then Marvel made her into a sexy Japanese ninja assassin who wore a skimpy bathing suit. The comics sold, and I don't think she ever got any solo stories or had any good writing. DC may have been trying for the Chris Claremont era Psylocke with their female characters, but used cake to substitute for story and character development.
I will make the nit pick that Kara showing up at the gladiatorial arena in costume might not have the desired effect, since as Hal points out the red and blue are well-known throughout most of the universe! Frankly, I'm just wondering where she GOT the lolita outfit and plushie in the first place...🤔
This was a wonderful video, Saha. You really did a great job on it and brought up some great points. If they bring Supergirl into Young Justice, I hope that she is depicted a little different than when she returned to the DC universe. Also I do love that Batman/Superman story arc that reintroduced Supergirl. However, showing her as a flirty superhuman teenager did remind me of how Starfire was introduced to us as a flirty and sexy alien superhuman.
I really loathe overtly sexualized depictions of teenagers, so this makes me happy they aged her up for that awful CW series. The last thing we needed was another Greg Berlanti show full of brooding hot thirty-five-year-old teens.
@Tiny Manticore If they really wanted an older Supergirl why didn't they use power girl? like did they not have the rights at the time or they did but chose not to use her
@Tiny Manticore Power girl in my opinion is the best depiction/version of Supergirl due to her being older wiser and the leader of her own superhero team the JSA BUT has little to no live-action appearances & is hardly used in current comics, The biggest problem with the CW Supergirl is that she was literally written to be like her cousin Clark from her job to her fighting her cousins villains to her new costume in the later seasons looking more like her cousins
@Tiny Manticore Teenage Supergirl has been written well in the DCAU & the Superman/batman apocalypse movie, both DC Superhero Girls shows have done an amazing job of writing Supergirl, the 2000s Supergirl comics improve significantly once Sterling Gates took over
@Tiny Manticore They honestly should have went the Smallville approach with the Supergirl tv show which would have worked a lot better BUT noooo instead we get "genderbent Superman" and once again if they really wanted an older Supergirl they should have done Power Girl instead
@@naquingreen1603 I think they went with Supergirl instead of Power Girl to capitalize on the Superman IP, rather than genuine interest in Kara. They changed the character so much to make her a female version of Clark, like you said, instead of focusing on developing her in her own right, which not only shows a lack of respect for the character they chose to adapt, but undermines the whole feminist message they were going for.
Cake tastes good when you add the right ingredients. Some enjoy the parts of the cake where there is extra cream, and some are just good with the bland cake. What they can both agree on though, is that too much cream will make the cake distasteful.
For what it's worth, Ventura was a planet that was mentioned off and on in the Legion of Super-Heroes comics. If I recall correctly, it was portrayed as a party planet or planet to go have fun at or go shopping at.
Being reminded at the Uber cheesecake nature of Turner’s art in the reintroduction also reminded that Jeph Loeb writes books for the artists. Man, that Jeph. He knows what the fans of particular artists want. Sometimes to the nth degree. It’s really evident when he wrote Supergirl with artists like the late Michael Turner and Ian Churchill. What really detracts is the incestuous stories involving Supergirl and Supergirl herself, being lusted after by Superman. Fortunately, I missed the later fetishizing after the Batman/Superman series that you were mentioning. I think there was a comics story where Supes said, and I’m paraphrasing, “If you weren’t my cousin…” Wow. Ok. I didn’t mind the Batman/Superman stuff but the Brave and the Bold comics with Lolita fetishizing Supergirl and her father figure fetishizing got to me. Weird.
@@KalEL224 Yeah it was written by Jerry Siegel himself. In a later silver age story they actually kiss each other and there’s a lot moreeeeee incestous stuff in Pre Crisis than Post, I’d say.
The BatB comic was absolutely creepy, to me in ways that I embarrassingly relate with. I was one of those teenagers who was attracted to a person or two who were incredibly older, that were like friends of family or something of a similar nature. You're young, you're infatuated, you're developing romantic interests, and you try to 'casually' find ways to get closer(like asking to share an aura-er I mean a Jacket) so you can almost fantasize that it's because they must secretly like you. I think it's more common than any would want to admit because as you get older, it's like a cringey thing to think back on for yourself. HOWEVER, Hal constantly repeating her age was an issue to me, because it came off that it wasn't an obvious issue for him that she was underage. He needed to constantly remind himself that she was too young, like she was a near irresistible temptation. He's been a space cop for how long, dealing with how many universal events, yet he is so distracted by the need to remind himself that he doesn't want a visit from Chris Hanson. Really? It could have been a comical, learning, or developmental moment for her. Like, just politely telling her that she is too young, understands what she must be going through at her age, but has no interest. It started off as that but his conclusion solidifying his reason is that she's Superman's cousin and recommends a change of costume! ONLY TO STILL REPEAT THAT SHE'S 17! Creepy! AND IT WASN'T RELEVANT AT ALL TO THE STORY! Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
I lament that comics will ever have another artist like George Perez. No other artist makes me feel like I’m watching a high budget movie crafted by a team who cared about every shot.
@@CasuallyComics plus knuckles introduction. Making it obvious how though sonic want to be a hero. His arrogance and recklessness make him seem like a villian. But he is just a child.
Ever since I watched your "Comet" video, I haven't been able to think of Supergirl without also thinking of that Creepypasta ASMR Super-horse. Good lord that story's still fresh in my mind... (Also, I love your Batman voice😂)
I really liked Joe Kelley's run making Kara moody and rather disinterested in superheroics. She being angst filled just made her more interesting to me. It was like Zack Snyder's Superman but done right.
@@Facade953 Joe Kelley's run was definitely the foundation of new52 Supergirl. I was so mad when they revamped Kara to be more like the CW show, especially since we never saw her deal with Kal-El's passing and replacement.
I like the current CW version of Kara. The writers consciously presented her as her own agent, keep a little of the cheesecake, but made her complex and emotional while still having her some struggle between her years as Kryptonian and being raised by conflicted humans while still introducing Superman as a mentor. I think it was not until season three that we saw more than Superman's arm in the opening.
Dude in that show It felt more like they want to Wright Clark rather then Kara But they couldn’t so they made Kara Clark And just to point out I don’t hate supergirl in the show I do like her mostly when interacting with the flash But I ain’t calling the show the gold standard of how to Wright supergirl
@@painvillegaming4119 Agreed Supergirl in that show was written like her cousin rather than her own character & the show barely even focused on her & focused more on her adopted sister Alex (who doesn't exist in the comics BTW) who gets a lot more focused, also the show used more of Superman's villains rather than Supergirl villains which made it even more clear as day that the writers were clearly trying to write Supergirl like her cousin & Supergirl's new costume in the later Seasons even ripped off her cousin, Supergirl is said to be stronger than her cousin in the show BUT constantly gets her butt kicked in every single episode and season by "villains of the week" & the main villain, her romances are written out or ignored in the show like her relationship with Brainiac-5 isn't even used in the show at all & her relationship with Mon-el was toxic due to the obsessed fans who literally threatened the actors in REAL life to get together even though both actors were married to different people but that did not stop the death threats against the showrunner and writers,
@@painvillegaming4119 The show also underused Martian Manhunter a lot more than Smallville IMO like in the later Seasons he is barely even in his Martian form and gets his butt kicked just like Supergirl even though in the comics Martian Manhunter is stronger than Superman, Another questionable decision with Martian Manhunter was changing his uncle and niece relationship with Miss Martian to instead be a romantic one which made literally no sense since every fan who grew up on Young Justice and read the comics saw these two as uncle and nice BUT in Supergirl they are instead in a romantic relationship?
@@painvillegaming4119 I like supergirl with her interactions with the flash and her interactions with the other heroes in the crossovers like Invision, crisis on earth x, elseworlds, and crisis on infinite earths,
.... But Hal's fridge would of been destroyed along with the rest of his home when Mongul destroyed Coast City. That event would of been a lot lot less than 17 years earlier.
I still remember when Hal didn't have an apartment even before Coast City was destroyed just cause his life was so erratic. So I was like, Hal has a fridge!
Supergirl's body got showcased to excess in this era with more skin than costume. Her mid-drift design began with the WB cartoon (emulating teen fashions). Athletes (gymnasts, swimmers, wrestlers, runners) reveal just as much (not on US television, which mandated above-the-waist shots since the 70s) but the attitude here was about titillation. As for sex undertones, only the writers can be accountable. (Glad you brought up the males; Superman and Batman's forms in Turner's art were intimidating, to say the least, but I suppose they would be.)
Actually I remember that in the movie version, the cake is a little less distracting because they actually try to fit it to the character. At the end of the shopping montage, Kara puts on a really skimpy dress and when Clark disapproves, she immediately says "Perfect. I'll take it." She has more agency and it feels more natural as a result.
I didn't realise the movie version was the original Supergirl origin. Well, an original origin!
That was teenage rebellion.
Most of the animated movie versions of Loeb's "stories" have to go some distance to make them work better.
Oh also the short-skirt-crop-top look works better in the DCAU timeline too, because her first outfit, that she presumably made herself, was basically the same look, so it seems like the look was her choice.
Just like family members trying to one up one another by the others disapproval
I think the problem with drawing Supergirl in a suggestive way vs. Nightwing is that she is often portrayed as a teenager while Nightwing is almost always portrayed as a full adult, so fanservice involving Supergirl often feels very gross.
Also, IMHO, I don't feel you can truly compare tights...even really tight tights...with near nudity and...crawling-up-'areas'... skimp. Especially with regards to teenagers!
And yet, by the same token, we have a cartoon movie with Harley Quinn - who was an adult doctor for many years (supposedly) working at Arkham not only getting 'turned on' by Nightwing BECAUSE he used to be "The Boy Wonder all grown up", but its strongly intimated that they slept together in that feature. She should be at least 10 years older than him, and quite possibly knew him as a child (although in the RW we know that she was created after Nightwing became a thing, but canon has been rebooted so many times, plus she has no idea he was a different Robin). Seems like Nightwing had no end to number of girls who's butt-cheeks were always hangin' out to choose from.
Meanwhile anime be like
@natma relnam When it is of explicitly underage girls, yes.
Some of these pictures, if done with an actress the actual age Kara is supposed to be, would be arguably illegal. Especially in situations where ahe is clearly in distress.
As a father to a teenage girl, I may be a bit more sensitive than others, but this often crosses the line of good taste.
@@jamesmac357 Okay, then don’t have the character be underage then (I wouldn’t have a real issue with the art if it was done with an actual adult character like Wonder Woman). Also, it shouldn’t distract from the story being told (which it definitely does during these issues of Supergirl).
“Maybe we can share your aura?”
“Maybe you can go drink some water.” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
🤣
I loved the story were she tried to save the boy with terminal cancer that one was a real gut punch.
Do you remember what run or series that was from? Would love to check it out if it's a good Supergirl story.
@@jackkelly9048 That was post Loeb...and it's a blur after that, sorry can't help
_edit:_ post-Loeb, same iteration, definitely pre-Flashpoint, may have been right before New Krypton, or after...?
@@jackkelly9048 Supergirl V5 #28, 29, 31,32,35 - The Way of the World 1-5
@@blintorzabat5798 oh awesome, thank you
@@blintorzabat5798 not all heroes wear croptops…
Awww... George Peréz... so sad. My heart goes out to him and his family
Did you see the calls for DC and Marvel to put their differences aside to reprint JLA/Avengers and give the proceeds to charity, and trusts for his family. Very sweet. I hope it happens.
@@CasuallyComics wait hold on, is this real? Cuz if so, Holy snapple
@@CasuallyComics that's fantastic
@@CasuallyComics It would also be amazing if the "final mass signing" he mentioned in his announcement actually happens. We would make plans to drop everything and head down to Florida for the homage. Peréz is the king!
@@CasuallyComics oh I’d buy that in a speedster’s heart beat if they were to follow through on it. Sadly doubt it but if they somehow do make a momentary compromise it would really be a lovely send off to an amazing Comic Book icon.
I love how casually you drop these vids to coincide with whatever is going on in the real world with these characters. Uploading this at the perfect time to go with the end of the Supergirl CW series but also feeling like it's just something that was on your mind. You're really good at this
and she handles the topics so elegantly. like,the first video of her's i saw was when she talked about the whole "i'm not starfire" thing because i wanted to know if it was actually as bad as people claimed or if it was just fanboys overreacting again but i couldn't find anyone talking about it that wasn't being super bias so it was REALLY nice to find someone that could actually talk about it on it's own merits rather than just be like "this suck i hate it and you should too". it was refreshing and that's why i like these videos. plus her ability to turn a phrase is fun to listen to.
I think the main issue with 'I'm not Starfire' is that the writer basically self inserted herself into the story and it had very little to do with Starfire at all and just use the name so it could sell. Not everyone likes that kind of thing.
@@LegendarySpaceRipper "mileage may vary"
@@LegendarySpaceRipper the problem with "i'm not starfire" is that it just wasn't good: the main character was VERY unlikeable (and she was mean to starfire and that's just unforgiveable on it's own),the story was very basic,i can't even remember any other characters but the main character (who's name i also don't remember),it tried to make being part alien some weird "race" thing and it fell into a lot of teen tropes including the final battle being on the school football field. it just wasn't good but i'm glad i found that out from HER and not someone just complaining out of some bias. her unbias opinion gave me a clear view of it and i thank her.
@@JT5555 same, the toxicity of the star wars, fandom over me "liking the wrong ones", it legit sucked all my interest in future star wars projects over the past 3 years. I love discussing the media I watch online, but that fandom made that so hard and were so hateful to the point of me finally giving up on enjoying the franchise and making friends through it one day... I still love and adore the movies and shows, but I don't think I'll ever call myself a star wars fan again, because of the connotations. All over something so silly at the end of the day, who should care what their fav trilogy, movie, or canon is, we all love the same franchise
For me the "changes" in Supergirl are quite striking, as for me she was first Superman's cousin, and sometimes girlfriend of Brainiac (Legion of Super-Heroes). Then she was, also Power-Girl. Then... it got confusing and more beef-cake, which I didn't appreciate cause they seemed, to me, to keep making her less. Less old, less wise, less knowledgeable, less Kryptonian, less costume. I for one like my characters to grow.
As always thank you so very much for the video.
(And, I think, there's always time for Ollie!)
Brainiac 3 they are two separate beings
@@matthewchristian9591 LSH Brainiac is Brainiac 5.
@@thomaswagner9875 I thought it was Brainiac 8, or was it him being a level 8 genius? I'm also remembering a 12 somewhere in there.
Power-Girl kept getting rebooted and then settled with her being Kara from a different reality where Kara got to Earth and out of suspended animation far earlier than she did and was a full-grown woman in her home universe around the same time the prime universe Supergirl showed up and came out of suspended animation as a teen. And I think she was created because too many people got mad that Supergirl never stopped being a teen during the era that even Marvel's teen hero Spider-Man became a man.
@@That80sGuy1972 The original Brainiac (a cybernetic organism) has a 12th level intellect, as does the Coluan decendents of his adopted Coluan son Brainiac 2 (Vril Dox). Brainiac 5 is the descendant in the Legion of Superheros in the 31st century. Brainiac 8 was another cybernetic creation of the original Brainiac from the future.
I always love the panel of Big Barda talking with the Big 3 during the Supergirl arc bc of how much she just towers over Superman and he has to levitate to yell at her😆😆
I love when people remember how tall she is. The big is there for a reason lol
@@CasuallyComics 😊😊👍🏾
Truth, she isn't just a New Gods ver. of Diana, that girl BIG
Big Barda really want the super D
@@MRWHO-gt8zo Actually....she already got it. In a very disturbing and sleazy way. Thanks to a villain who was LITERALLY named Sleaze.
Sasha, please do a video on this sordid episode, and be sure to scold Mr. Byrne for this.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited to see which outfit Sasha wears in every new video. Like I'm here for the comic knowledge and content but the absolute BANGER fashion and makeup, keep me coming back.
I always look forward to her wigs.
Just waiting for a Two-face retrospective
Especially this episode. That shirt looks amazing on her.
I don't think that characters having sexy outfits is inherently bad, but imo it works better for some characters than for others, and it works for some scenarios better than others. For me, when someone dresses sexy in a way that's out of character, or the comic seems to care more about cake than it does the plot is when it goes too far. I do love me some cake most of the time, but not all cake is equal.
supergirl´s costume was way too much considering she was 13-14 years old in that era
@@gracieloufreebush4899 Which era? In post crisis, there were two versions of supergirl that were teenagers when they were introduced. If we’re talking about the Verizon of Kara in the video, then she would be 15-16 like the majority of other mainstream teenage superheroes at the time.
@@gracieloufreebush4899 a fictional character
@@XyZolda and she is still a minor?
@Sara Moustamandi bruh
One thing no one ever mentions is that the revised Supergirl origin (being born on Krypton, taking a long time to get to Earth) is actually Power Girl's first origin. They completely swiped it when they brought Supergirl back. To me the only real Supergirl is the one born in Argo City years after Krypton exploded.
😊👍
Agreed, Kara works best as the YOUNGER cousin of Superman, not this extra confusing suspended animation one.
wow ... this surprised me ... thanks for share... l like this stuffs about lore...
Huh. Interesting
To be fair, they’re the same girl.
Fun observation that most people had when that version was out. Artists like Mike Turner and Ian Churchill basically made Supergirl Britney Spears in her career prime. Loeb and other writers basically used the marketing of pop icons like Spears, Aguilera, and Simpson to sell Supergirl using taglines from Rolling Stone, MTV, and the WB. The character grew as the fame of who she borrowed from diminished. 2005-2006 Britney wasn’t a time people wanted to emulate so writers shifted her arc to being more about identity issues and making her own way.
You know, I had just been wondering where Sasha from Top 10 Nerd went off to. Until some kind soul pointed me to casually comics. I missed you so much Sasha, I'm so happy to be here and thanks for being a great hostess.
I"m the rare monster that loves the Matrix Supergirl era. It was absolutely nuts, very Peter David, and featured some great art at times. It kinda went off the rails towards the end, but it was definitely an interesting idea.
Just found the channel. Love your mix of good information and humor. It is a great fit for the topic. Definitely looking forward to checking out your other videos.
Took me a littel to settle into it, but once I got into it, i loved it
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
Yeah, I definitely found this a bit creepy...I mean that shot of naked Kara with Superman's cape is so similar to that shot of Lois from For Tomorrow in the exact same pose. The connotation is supposed to be different (I hope) but it's just...weird.
I always appreciate sasha Trying to diffuse tension when she cover stuff like this by listing off all the different ways of seeing it. It's one of the main reasons I watch this channel over other comic channels. Like she obviously has her own opinions on it but respects that there are others and that's brilliantly shown in by the fact "your milage may vary" is basically her catch phrase!
Last time I was this early. Supergirl was friends with Wanda 5.
Way back when Linda Lee lived in the orphanage she had a Linda Lee robot who was stashed in a nearby hollowed out tree. When Linda wanted to be Supergirl she ordered the robot to take her place and pretend to be her in the orphanage. Then back in the tree when Supergirl returned home. Whatever happened to the robot? Is she still in the tree? Does she get lonely and wonder why nobody ever calls? What if she got tired of waiting, left the tree and got a room in the orphanage, then was adopted by new parents every issue who soon discover they've now got a 63 year old teenage robot as the heir to their family lumber business, or whatever. Here is an idea waiting for the moment to be rediscovered. Free of charge, I have no copyright on this idea.
The brilliance of this concept cannot be overstated.
Maybe The Linda Lee-Bot settled down with one of the Superman-bots and they're happily raising Furbys somewhere.
Sounds like something for Grant Morrison to take on.
@@Clell65619 That would lend itself to lots of enticing ethics debates. Silver Age Kryptonians were forbidden to marry their cousins, however robot "cousin" weddings take us to a gray area. Rebelling against Kryptonian culture is a plus. How about a retro early 60s vibe, sort of "My Favorite Martian" meets "The Patty Duke Show" meets unsold pilot "Adventures of Superboy". Set in the orphanage where scenes would recall the Patty and Cathy slumber parties. Disappointed parents return Linda Lee robot for various reasons, eg the electricity bills are skyrocketing because she is constantly recharging. (Again, this idea is free, but please make me a character, like the orphanage groundskeeper (Willy?), the wise and wise-cracking elder privy to all their secrets. Or one of the orphan boys who pines for Linda Lee robot and wonders what she'd be like as a blonde!)
BTW if that pilot is still unsold someone ought to buy it.
@@daverhoden445 Perhaps it could a little bit. But in order to sell to Generation Cake we need a fresh origin. How about some way out there culture-war drama? The Kents move from the farm to Smallville. Puberty age Clark lacks friends so he utilizes Kryptonian science to create a robot, a female twin of himself he calls Linda Lee. He stashes her in a tree when not "needed". His parents understand, at first, he needs a friend to talk to. Then Ma and Pa Kent suspect he considers Linda Lee robot a possible "love" interest, wink wink. What they do not discover until the season finale is that Clark is pretending, true to form, actually hiding yet another secret: Linda Lee is the transgender version of Clark, and he considers advanced Kryptonian surgery to make it so. But Ma and Pa are horrified and disown Clark (Linda Lee), so they return him to the orphanage they had used 12 years before (after they found him in the crashed rocket).
Season two, the Kents are written out; Clark now lives in the orphanage, goes to high school and fights crime as Superboy, but in the nearby woods waits his Linda Lee robot stashed in another tree. Although super--intelligent Clark is a poor speller due to exposure to Kryptonite, so whenever he re-programs Linda Lee he puts her on "otto-pilot" (some Binder humor here). He is still wanting the Kryptonian surgery to become truly Linda, but the only surgeon capable is in the Phantom Zone doing time for -- what else? robot abuse (this was Silver Age General Zod's original crime, if memory serves)
Season 3: Clark has arranged for his Linda Lee robot, now blonde so they don't look like twins, to get a room at the orphanage. The Kents make a dramatic return to the orphanage and adopt the Linda Lee robot, not recognizing her after her hair change. So the joke's on them -- they're delighted they've replaced a transgender son with the blonde girl they always wanted, but she's really the robot they knew from the tree. Clark is sad to lose Linda Lee from the orphanage, but he creates another model for his future look -- a red-headed robot named Lana. Hey, it's all about suspension of disbelief, people.
Context and framing are always key. Even beyond fanservice anything overt or 'extra' can take the reader totally out of the story, for me the focus needs to include having all of your characters be 3 dimensional and not just there as a prop for the sake of being attractive or useful for moving the plot along. Characters can have strong sex appeal intentionally, it can be a part of the character by design and influence how they act like with Jessica Rabbit and others like her, but a lot of the time in superhero comics I've found that sexuality is not often taken seriously, more so used just for fanservice. When a majority of superhero stories are action focused that can make sense but then it has to be considered if the timing and framing of such fanservice is appropriate as to not take the reader out of the book or create an environment where it seen as okay or justifiable to objectify female characters without regard for them deserving the same three dimensional representation that they should have.
I heard good things about the New 52 Supergirl run and thought that the idea of Kara having an emotional instability which leads her to becoming a red lantern sounded super interesting. I picked up the first volume and it didn't take long at all for me to be thrown off by some panels that felt like they were going out of their way to show off Kara's body in a way that felt uncomfortable, I wasnt upset or anything like that but I simply wasn't expecting it when the tone of the intro and covers felt like had a clear self-seriousness about them. I do like fanservice but I find that it works best when it is used for more light hearted moments or when taking a breather from the main story so that the reader doesn't drown in intense/complex arcs. You need a filler issue every once in a while and to me fanservice thrives in moments like that.
My favorite Supergirl and the version of her that made me want to explore runs in the comics is from Justice League: Unlimited, the animated show. Kara there is powerful, headstrong, and fun but is still conflicted about her role as a hero as well as being trained to refine her skills over the course of the show largely by John Stewart. Her send-off in S3 is celebratory, wrapping up her story lines from across the whole show and she has her share of romantic moments without it shifting the tone or feeling out of place. Her costume is not too different from what we've seen in these 2000s comics but she was never used purely as eye candy, at least as far as I can remember. I rewatched the whole show this year which sparked back to life my appreciation for several DC heroes.
Imo it was an amazing take on Supergirl, well thought out and well executed, and one which I really do love.
Edit* I do not mean to say or claim that all superhero comics fail to seriously consider and explore sexual themes within their books, I know they're out there.
And I do plan to continue reading the New 52 Supergirl run anyways because it still does seem good.
I agree JLU did a fine job on Supergirl, especially having her clone Galatea being a less cheesecake version of Powergirl
i'm a anime fan (where fanservice is the rule rather than exception) and 100% agree that fanservice doesn't have to get in the way of a good story. but sadly,sometimes that's really all the writers WANT it to be (take queen's blade vs monster masume: both are SUPER fanservicey but difference is that while queen's blade still has it's story about a noblewoman with no battle training entering a battle tournament to became queen of the capital and help the poor people of her kingdom: monster masume is just about all the ways a human guy is trying not to have sexual relations with sexy monster girls because he'll get arrested if he does) and it can't be helped.
@@JT5555 I totally get what you mean, writers will always be finding different ways to include what will bring an audience in, some will handle it better than others but it all comes down to what kind of stories you as a reader/watcher are actually interested in.
Personally more serious themes are sabotaged due to creators of that storyline are normally unable to truly finish their vision in comics and somebody else has to do it. Even if manga has a lot of cheesecake to outright smut-based works. It feels whole due to you know there was one vision from beginning to end.
@@jackkelly9048 pretty much. sadly americans (and the japanese) like girls with big boobs and small brains so that tends to lead to some less than great storytelling in the process (not all the time: poison ivy is a known seductress that has not problems using her body to get what shew want's but she also used to be a scientist,is a expert at creating toxins and is not entirely wrong on her views of humanity). all just kinda depends on how good the writer is at their job to be able to balance story with sexiness.
I was quite aware of it in the 70's and 80's, but then in 2004, Michael Turner layed it in thick, and it kept on going.
In the movie adaptation in 2010, it's toned down a bit, and the CW series, it's practically non-existent, even her final costume with pants (which isn't a bad look, especially if she transitions into "Superwoman" permanently).
There's cake, and then their jailbait, there's a clear difference.
(Also, Steve Englehart... With Mantis, Arisia, and this, my man, calm down lol)
When you said CW, the first thing I thought of was _Smallville's_ Supergirl, well Kara first, not sixth season Kara _(edit)_ the first one was naked
@@russellarcher5181 Smallville Kara getting ready for Miss Sweet Corn beauty pageant in a swimsuit while balancing a book on her head for some reason.
I enjoy michael turners artworl and the whole kara coming to earth and needing clothes was a unique.
To be fair, a big part of Kara's skirt-with-pants costume in the CW's Supergirl is because Melissa Benoist complained. Something about it being *very* cold in Vancouver in the winter. Apparently pretty windy too.
@@vic5015 That would make sense. I will never forgive the way they did it tho because she made her costume in the first episode after going through all the diff comic ones. When she gushes and all but shrieks "PANTS!!!", it was just cringy like "You made your outfit and gave yourself the skirt and had leggings too..."
“Welcome to DC diner, what’ll you have?” “Cake.”
You are so right that there's no way Ma Kent made that outfit for her. I thought the same thing when that comic was new. In the '80's, John Byrne depicted Kryptonians as always wearing big heavy outfits that they never took off, and DC went from that to having the girl straight from Krypton be a nudist.
My favorite Supergirl depiction has to be from DC Super Hero Girls.
Less cake, more personality.
Ok while I enjoy the super hero girls (which honestly surprised me like really the show is actually hilarious and enjoy the friendship and the characters and the music and how they introduce some characters)
Kara is kinda just a typical bad/ punk girl
Which isn’t bad but isn’t the really Kara
@@painvillegaming4119 I respectfully disagree. Supergirl once had a Red lantern ring. So canonically she has the rage within her. Which she expresses through her love of punk rock. 😈
@@bobstewart1832 I mean :…..even a cat has a red lantern ring …..which is also in the show and has the deepest voice since edris Elba knuckles
Kara rage was different
Point is different situation
Also I do also have another problem with the Kara I’m the show
My problem is other then the episode were they dealt with superman and Kara trying to get out of his shadow she is just kinda there
Zatana has that mystery behind her with magic
Barbara …..is the best character in the show fight me the haul time travel stuff with Barry and Barry take it kills me with how over the top it is
Bumblebee is learning how to be strong
Jess has the haul pacifist thing going for her which brings interesting dynamics with Kara
Also her dynamic with hal is brilliant
Mostly with the episode where sinistro appears and he is downright simping for Hal
And Diana well diana doesn’t have much going for her either except she is the perfect student and the fish out of water
They really could do way more with both
I do enjoy it but they do much with either Barbara had the haul harley thing going recently and zatana has the haul magic stuff locked and mother stuff which being intrigue
I really liked that Superman/Batman series with Kara's return, but the cake was thick. I remember thinking "But she's an innocent teenager! Why so sexy?" I think for me it was an issue of characterization. My expectation of supergirl was that she have we have a certain "golden-agey" personality. There was this cognitive dissonance between how she was acting and what the artist was focusing focusing on. It seemed vioristic.
Teenager aren’t innocent… I would know (sex, drugs, alcohol)
@@fridayguy2649 She's specifically innocent as she's portrayed there. It's not that deep. "Innocent teenager" is a trope 😭
I loved Kara as a kid but after Crisis I was really invested in the “matrix” Supergirl and when Kara returned I was pretty meh about the character.
Same. '90s Supergirl is still may favorite. Other than that, Kara is still dead to me. :)
@@WillSams and now, due to death Metal, all of supergirl's origins could be considered cannon
I always loved the storylines where Kara was portrayed as a character that can give us more aspects of Kryptonian culture (being that she was older than Clark when being launched).
Honestly the Krypton exploration was one of the CW series’ best qualities despite its faults. Plus the PANTS 😂 I mean Jesus I’ll never get over how much better she looks in the later seasons.
In terms of cake, for me it’s in the wardrobe. Like a character in a skirt when everyone else has Krypton techy-suits just isn’t practical 😂 At least Wonder Woman’s newer costume has the Greek armor vibe, Nightwing is a gymnast so his costume makes more sense.
I´ll admit I miss the eye-candy outfits.
But yeah, objectively, for practical purposes, pants are probably better.
But with characters with short/revealing outfits, I always wonder: What´s *their* reason for it? Distracting on purpose? Just don´t care? Want to look hot? ...
@@johnyshadow conforte i don’t know
Supergirl's (and Mary Marvel's) skirt has been grandfathered in like Superman's trunks. They're costume design choices you don't see in new heroes unless it's a homage or parody of old design choices. They get away with it because they're old characters and their costumes are too iconic. Every time DC has tried to remove these elements from their costumes in the main continuity have been met with lukewarm reactions and walked back a few years later.
Personally, I think superhero costumes should prioritize aesthetics and symbolism over practicality (unless its supposed to be a gritty series or has to compromise for live action), especially with invulnurable characters that give artists more wiggle room for readers' suspension of disbelief. The image of an all powerful teenage girl flying around and kicking ass in a skirt is a more powerful image than if she were wearing armor. If you have an iconic look, there's no reason to change it when it markets itself.
Magical Girl series use a design philosophy of "the power of the feminine" when designing their costumes and gear. That's the lens I use when looking at Supergirl's outfits. She expresses her personality through the designs (outside of the line about Ma Kent making her suit here, the Pre- and Post-Crisis eras show her designing new costumes in her spare time), as such her most iconic costumes are fun and appear more at home at a trip to the park than a battlefield.
To me, the Supers' suits should look soft to the touch. Something that wouldn't make people hesitate to jump into their arms.
All attempts to deviate from these design principles have fallen flat to me. It's hard to make the soft material look good (or at least not cheap) in live action, so they keep trying to add uncomfortable-looking textures (I'm not fond of any of the live action Super-suits, with Brandon Routh's Kingdom Come suit coming the closest to doing them right, and the Reeve/Slater suits have the advantage of older camera quality hiding the imperfections). The choice to make them ceremonial armor in the New 52 was one of the more tone deaf, IMO, too militaristic.
@@johnyshadow There is an old Titans (I think) panal where Donna tries to explain the concept of modesty to Kory. If someone is invulnerable then clothing is just fashion and practicality doesn't enter in to it. On the other hand, male Heros are fully dressed even when invulnerable.
@@BrandonVout I do see your point when it comes to a cultural aesthetic. I guess my problem doesn’t lie so much in the material (cause you’re right it’s not like their Krypton clothes came from any military)
I guess my main problem is how the wardrobe is drawn in comparison to her figure. That being merged with the more 2D storytelling that was exemplified in this video.
Like in the end I guess her original costume can work but when you can see the whole outline of her cleavage and she’s always angled under-skirt, it makes me question if artists actually wanna respect the character
Honestly the difference is between nightwing and Supergirl in this context is that he is an adult. I am not the biggest fan of cheesecake but I can tolerate it with adults, specifically if it it fits the characters like say Marvel's enchantress or Catwoman
Hold up nightwings an adult I really thought he started out in his late teens
@@ILoveLuvia he wasn't a teen in those issues she showed though
@@notsosmartguy6254 oh fr lol, I didn't read n52 nightwing so idk I've only read the 1990 run and 2016 rebirth run
@@ILoveLuvia Unless it's been retconned since, Dick Grayson became Nightwing when he was in college, at least 20 or 21 years old.
@@snorpenbass4196 Yeah I'm reading n52 nightwing rn, dude definitely an adult cause if he wasn't I'd be side eying the artists cause oboy do they love to sexualize nightwing.
Everyone should read Supergirl: Woman of tomorrow. It’s a limited series that hasn’t finished yet but the portrayal of her character is the best i’ve read! The art is also mind blowing.
Thanks for the recommendation
@@theimperfectscrapper5313 no problem :)
IMO it's the constant focus on Kara's age that makes the stories so strained. If she's 5 years older the stories still have a certain pin up factor but because she's an adult there's (possibly) less objections over how she's pictured.
I freaking HATE when lazy writers take this character who's a literal alien from a humanoid species that has nothing to do with out planet and actually grew up in her own culture among her own people before arriving to Earth, but they still make her a stereotypical airhead American teenage girl. Why the hell would she think and act like that?
Isn't she canonically supposed to be described as a part of the Kryptonian Science Guild? How does that work when she's on Earth?
I'd say the arguments there's a bit too much cake in Kara's early pre-Nu52 return are justified. While the artist's style did lean that way, there's lots of shots from that early run which were heavily leaning to the fanservice. Once Sterling Gates and James Ingle took over, that aspect was toned down considerably, with them even going as far as to introduce the...Skort! Which way too many people freaked out about. Overall, my biggest issue as SG fan during her initial return was the way they characterized and tried to use Kara. As said, different interruption of characters is fine, but the way they portrayed her just didn't sit well with me. Sure, have some culture clash or Kara being frustrated by trying to adjust to life on Earth. The fact she grew up on Krypton and thus, Earth would be alien to her, is a great area to explore. However, the DC higher ups seemed to not know what to do with her, so she was all over the place in motivations, personality, and stuff. It took Gates to sort of right the ship and give me a Supergirl I enjoyed. His run, especially the 'Who is Superwoman' arc for Kara, was a great one.
As to the issue with Hal there, yeah that was a mess. Better way to handle it would have been to more show, Kara has a crush but eventually sort of gets why Hal doesn't feel the same way. Maybe with them becoming friends or at least, avoiding the uncomfortableness you highlighted. I never knew about that issue but seeing Kara in that outfit at the gladiatorial arena...yikes.
My fav runs for Kara Zor-El Supergirl have been Sterling Gates's stuff, both for the Nu52 and then his TV tie-in Adventures of Supergirl. The early Nu52 stuff for Supergirl, though again, they started meddling with her, leading to more BS.
And Sasha if you need another dumb comic controversy to look into, the Supergirl Skort stuff was pretty dumb. Great vid and love your stuff!
I don't know about you, but if I see a little girl with a plushie walk confidently into a battle arena where giants are getting murked, I'm betting on her! You can also just put the Will Smith Hogan's Alley speech from Man in Black here.
@JTSG
The Jeph Loeb run also made very questionable decisions/choices with Supergirl's character 1) Supergirl leaving power girl to save the people of Kandor
2) Jeph Loeb Supergirl destroying and mocking the Silver age Supergirl 3)
retconning Kara's reason from protecting him to actually being sent to kill him 4)
Turning her father evil 5)
Kara turning into a party girl after giving up being a hero after a botched mission with The Outsiders goes wrong due to her literally freezing up & Ignoring orders from Arsenal 6) Being a party girl and not being a superhero
I love that you always present all the angles of a potential situation. Very well thought out arguments all around. Great work as always!
Memories of the first episode of Tv show Supergirl.
Winn starts to help her with making an outfit.
Kara comes out is a midriff top.
Kara: Nope.
This is a great video... a real example of why we love your content. Keep highlighting this type of thing.
Superman: "my mom made your suit Kara"
Sasha: "yeah that's not gonna cut it" 🤣😂
Michael Turner drew everyone sexy look how form fitting Superman's and bats costumes are.
What Sasha doesn't get into is how we got this Kara (which I have always pronounced the way the tv series doesn't): Peter David had been writing the Matrix Supergirl for years, but wanted to bring back the classic one. DC said "no", but he talked them into bringing her back for ONE short storyline, gambling that the fan response would be so great, DC would be stupid not to let him make it permanent. The version he wrote in that storyline was very in-line with the sweet, "nice girl" original character...and fans *loved* her! So, DC gave in...with two conditions. 1) They fired David/cancelled his book, and 2) they gave the project to Loeb, who immediately decided that "nice" Supergirl was old fashioned and boring and gave us the sexed up, "bad girl" version, which exactly *nobody* had asked for. Took a while for DC to correct this, but you can't convince me that, on some level, they weren't doing this out of spite...
@Hand-of-Omega
Good news is the comic improve once Sterling Gates took over BUT Jeph Loeb
had done considerable damage to
Supergirl's character with turning Kara into "sexed up" edgy teenager who hits on GL & Nightwing (even if there is a age gap) & was a bad hero with her literally leaving power girl behind to save the civilians of Kandor & trying to talk new superhero Tara (no relation to Tara Markov) out of being superhero & saving people to Instead just Party
@Hand-of-Omega
Thankfully Supergirl from Superman/Batman apocalypse was written a lot better than her comic counterpart
@Hand-of-Omega
Peter David deserve more respect and DC should be ashamed of themselves for what they did like The Matrix era of Supergirl what's the most popular era of the character so much so that the Supergirl from Superman the animated series had her design inspired by the Linda Danvers version from the comics
@@naquingreen1603 Minor nit: the STAS Supergirl had the white shirt first. After Linda and Matrix split, Linda started wearing the white-shirt costume from the animated series.
That said, I thoroughly agree that Peter David deserves more credit. His run of Supergirl was so good, it lasted longer than every other Supergirl comic series that DC has ever published. It even had more issues than all of the pre-Crisis Supergirl series COMBINED. People tend to sweep his series under the rug because "she wasn't from Krypton like the pre-Crisis Supergirl", forgetting that the pre-Crisis Supergirl was never popular or well-written enough to carry a book on her own for very long. The only reason Supergirl isn't a forgotten character today is because (a) the pre-Crisis Supergirl had such a memorable death scene that people developed instant nostalgia, and (b) PAD wrote a popular, interesting comic that revived interest in the character.
I think I like Peter David's Super Girl more. I definitely liked her personality more. Her powers were..odd sometimes ( the flame wings 😳).
He did a good job of distinguishing him from the Super Family, by making her a (sort of) angel who dealt with supernatural matters. I wasn't watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer at the time, so it was a while before I realized just how much he "homaged" from that show...("Buzz" for "Spike", smh)
@@HandofOmega Buzz was introduced in 1996. Spike first appeared about a year later, in late 1997. Does Peter David have a time machine, which he used to homage things that hadn't happened yet?
Most likely, Buzz and Spike were independent creations. But if there was any copying taking place, then it was the other way around: Spike would have been influenced by Buzz, not vice-versa.
@@danmerget Yeah! That's right. I thought that Supergirl preceded the Buffy TV show. They were just close together. And had similar characters and themes.
@Will N Thanks for the detailed information. "Continuity" really confuses me sometimes. Nowadays it seems like there is little lasting continuity.
"Maybe you could get some water" I legit died 😂😂😂
I really wish she stayed as a Red Lantern. That story line of a rage filled Kyptonian was just great
Peter David's 90's Supergirl remains one of my favourite comic-book series of all time (in general, not just Supergirl books). It's just such a shame that it ended on such a sad note (and with another of those alternate Kara/Supes hook-ups because awkward). Not long after that, the "original" Supergirl was re-introduced as discussed in the video above, and there was no room for Linda to return to the DCU in any capacity.
(Someone going by her name and with powers that she no longer had in-continuity did rock up in 2008's Reign in Hell. But it wasn't a Linda than anyone who had ever read even just one issue of her book would have recognised).
That run was excellent as was the crossover with Young Justice which Peter David was also writing.
Here here
So glad I came across this channel. You're the best.
I love Matrix Supergirl. Her character dealt with identity and gender in a way that was about 30 years ahead of its time. And she stars on two of my favorite covers of all time, Superman II 21 and Action 644. I particularly love that she's not Supes' biological cousin, but instead his adoptive sister, since she is also "raised" by Ma & Pa Kent. Would LOVE to see you cover The Supergirl Saga of 1987 sometime... (Only 3 issues, but so much happens.)
9:51 This same line was said in episode 1 of "Superman and Lois". Now I know where it originated from.
...damn, now I'm reminded of the news about George Perez.
He's not dead yet, but R.I.P. to a real one.
I love the energy in these videos! Thank you!
It's specially uncomfortable considering she's a teenager, and she was kept drawn as this over sexualized teen girl, which considering how the character has never been taken seriously by writers, it really makes you think Supergirl only exists to have a hot sexy girl in the pages and that's it.
Her story? Doesn't matter. Her difficulty with fitting on Earth because she lived in Krypton most of her life, with ingrained culture and ways of living? Doesn't matter, let's just make her a "born sexy yesterday" trope and do stereotypical teenage girl stuff. Her feelings on how her entire planet and civilization were wiped out entirely? Doesn't matter, let's just make Superman be the one who mourns the death of Krypton even though he never knew the planet, while the one character that did live there, knew the culture and people, will just be there as a sexy lamp and will never explore her feelings.
Feels like one of those times when you probably should just hand it off to a female writer. Get the character on track and establish them with a writer that has some experience and connection with the character.
This is the real tragedy of Supergirl for me, that they have story telling gold fall into their laps and they can't think of anything to do other than "female Superman sexy". Sexy isn't the problem (well, not the main problem), story is.
So I was pretty happy when I found Stirling Gates' run, where Kandor is literally on earth being all upsetting to everyone with its thousands of Kryptonians that aren't nearly as nice as Kal El, and Kara is stuck in the middle. Finally, somebody cared about her story!
Great vid! Gotta pause at 19:17 for that amazing 90s-style pinup. Interesting to see the relationship Kara almost had with Hal Jordan, as well as the mention of Arisia. We love your histories of superheroines, Sasha - look for a package from Heroineburgh soon!
R.I.P. Michael Turner. You changed comics, then left us.
Sasha I Love you and your content. I had been looking for you on YT and couldn't find you until I saw the latest video from The Watchtower Database. So thank you for collaborating with James and the gang!!!
When they keep mentioning her age,the cheesecake art makes it more uncomfortable.
With great cheesecake,comes great responsibly.
That probably the point
You feel how Hal feel
"The Era of Kara." Now THAT would be a good Title for a Comic Line!! :D
I think it really is a mixed bag. I like seeing hot girls and hot guys, I like fanservice, but I do feel like what they did to Kara was overkill a bit. Not to mention with Nightwing he was an adult I think when he started to become more...cheesecakey. Kara wasnt. I acknowledge she's a fictional character and that its fantasy for sure but I think it would've been a bit better if she was older. It was definitely clear the writers/pencillers were thirsty and showing a fantasy of sorts.
22:16 That is Ture and the way you picked up Faye Valentine that could work and I do love Comics and Anime!
I feel like during this run there was so much cake it did detract from the weight of the stories in the main Supergirl book. There’s this element of Supergirl trying to find herself and define her role within the DCU, but it gets overshadowed by outside factors thanks to artistic choices.
In that Brave and Bold story, I suspect Mark Waid was very much aware of the problems with how Kara was being depicted at the time. And rather than just ignoring it, he apparently decided to tackle that uncomfortable subtext head-on. "Kara's being hyper-sexualized all the time for the readers' benefit, but nobody in the story ever seems to notice. Ok, this time they're going to notice." I don't think it was successful, but I give him credit for at least acknowledging the underaged elephant in the room...
Green Lantern being worried about Superman coming after any man who breaks Kara's heart sounds so silly. He knows Superman personally, he knows Superman would never harm anyone for such a reason. He'd have a serious talk with them at most. Also, that old panel of Superman thinking of his love interests all sharing the initials L.L.... Fits Lex Luthor too. Guess that's why they even had that son together.
Clark is still over protective
But I get your point
I remember starting to read the Supergirl run when it was released, but there was a bit that made me uncomfortable. I much prefer her Rebirth costume. The new Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow book is superb.
I liked her in the new 52. Though when the new 52 launched thats when i really got into DC. I loved superboy and evne superman was interesting. I liked supergirl in rebirth as well, and am also enjoying Woman of Tomorrow, even though supergirl feels more like Red Sonja (at least in the first 3 issues) I have liked super girl for quite a while now and theres nothing wrong with her being a more sexy and more inexperienced and brash character. We dont need to cover every woman up to fight off the male gaze and all the other woke buzzwords . In reality fit and attractive women enjoy being seen and showing off a bit, just like guys do as well. Its natural.
Let me ask you, did superman showing as a naked child make you uncomfortable? If the answer is no, reevaluate your God damn morals.
Woman of tomorrow was my first supergirl comic, bought it last year, honestly one of my favourites, even my sister (who isn't really into comics at all) loved it, introduced her to supegirl and she's reading more online, truly an amazing book
I don't know why I didn't find this channel earlier. Subscribed.
I really like when you cover Supergirl. Thank you for the video.
If you're gonna do cake, don't do it with a character whom your emphasizing is a minor. Don't do it. Cheesecake, to a degree, is fine as long as the character is an adult.
"I have food in the fridge older than her..." Oh god, Hal...you don't want to pursue that metaphor
"Ma Kent made that uniform" lol that reminds me of how in Batman And Robin (the movie) Alfred made a costume for Batgirl (his niece) and says "I took the liberty of getting your measurements my dear" followed up by the only closeup shot of a fake leather clad butt that's not a man's in Joel Schumacher's entire filmography
I little off topic: one of my favorite lines in the Batman/superman supergirl story is when supergirl and Batman are talking and supergirl tells him how he wouldn’t understand what it’s like being her, and Batman’s response is “then explain it to me until I do”. It’s such a great line and mindset when someone says “you won’t understand”.
Name one "crisis" that ever actually succeeded in making the DC universe "simpler"
Does the end of New 52 count as a crisis?
@@Acemancello not really. The N52 universe is STILL the main universe. It’s just that the timeline was altered
9:43 Big Barda in a towel is something Mr Miracle wouldn't want to escape from.
I don't really have a problem with cheesecake, but a lot of people execute it poorly. Regardless of its "sexy" nature, cheesecake often sends vibes of being lighthearted and playful. Thus, it can take you out of the story when this fun/silly visual appears in something that is otherwise serious. It could be used for juxtaposition, but that's different from just being randomly out of place.
On the other hand, I think there is sometimes too much hand-wringing about costume designs and wanting to make it so that super heroes can be "taken seriously." Generally, it's way more important that characters look like they're at home in their outfits than that they fit some external sense of practicality. (I think that's actually part of why Kitty Pryde has never landed on a motif for her supersuits (or her code name); she's most at home just being herself…but that's a different topic.)
I really liked Sterling Gates Supergirl run. It was exactly what the comic needed to be.
Tom King's run was interesting. I'm not sure it was for me, but it was interesting.
And despite Mark Waid writing that Brave and the Bold issue, he's doing a very good job handling Kara in the current World's Finest series.
I admit I am a man who loves his cheese cake, the cheesier the better for me, but you have to use it just right or else you’ll get a metaphorical tummyache, and having Supergirl be 17 and to be constantly reminded she’s 17 definitely sours the cake a little.
It’s best for cheese cake to be used in a fun, action packed or, no pun intended, cheeky way lol the best example I’ve seen it used is how Paul Dini uses it, very winking at the camera sort of way.
So give me all the cheese cake you can, just make sure it’s off age and not in a sad way, I want to be able to enjoy my cake to the fullest and not feel weird about it
I see it as Hals hangups due to his American upbringing. So he's repeating '17' to try to remind himself that he's not meant to find Kara attractive until some months later. In other countries (or even some States), you can be married with kids at 16. Same with Cousin marriage. It's really common for people in India to marry their cousins.
13:18 I live here in Las Vegas and I was here when they came to town.
Goddamn, I fucking hate this era of Supergirl, and I love Supergirl. I especially hate how this was the version of Supergirl that was around when my kids were getting heavily into comics. It's misogynistic, it's creepy, it's pedophilic, it insults the intelligence of … everyone.
15:22 "Who are you, OLLIE?" Nice Hal. Nice.
I think it is being presented the cake along with a bowl of innocence and naivete that gives it that cringe factor...almost like it is warping into a kind of pedophilia...you will notice that Dinah doesn't have that problem as Black Canary...lots of cake..but she is in complete control as well as self, and situationally aware.
Anyways...this makes me happy for the current run of Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow...which I am hoping will define Kara's character for quite a while!!
Peter David’s run on Supergirl was great-oddly overshadowed by Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Worth a video….?
Here here
I think in comics, everyone will end up being objectified at some point because many of the characters are usually wearing skin tight outfits that highlight a (what many consider to be) peak or ideal physique. However I do feel agency is important if we're talking about objectification leading to some kind of character development, empowerment or just having less squicky factor. Granted, like Sasha, I also enjoy going back to read more hot mess issues. I find them funny and I do enjoy thinking through what could work there and what perhaps doesn't work for me and why. Also problematic things really can be funny -- oftentimes people laugh when they are uncomfortable. That's normal!
Context and the way it's handled.
Selina Kyle has wore several skin tight leather outfits and often uses a whip, which heavily references S&M culture. It works with her because
a) She is an extroverted person perfectly at ease with her sexuality and b) Because almost every time she is objectified by others it's by design so that they underestimate her and thus she retains agency instead of being a victim.
Dick Greyson on the other hand copes, but it's far from comfortable, with the fact he is objectified by so many people including his own bloody mentor/father figure.
"I would recognize that butt anywhere" -Batman
And, most tragically, he has actually been reduced to an object and a victim. Like Starfire kissing him upon meeting him. Yes she was trying to learn his language but even then it doesn't change the fact she did it without his consent and later admitted he chose him because she was physically attracted to him. Btw, that's far from the only time Dick has been kissed without consent for a variety of contrived reasons.
And worse of all? He is one of only a handful of DC heroes to have been raped and while Tarantula ends up in jail she is never charged for rape and Dick just kept it secret because he was actually ashamed of being sexually abused.
I really love your channel and your takes. You're always on point. 🥰
It seemed to me at this time that DC wanted to highlight strong women characters, but also was afraid they wouldn't sell so went with a lot of cake. I call it the Psylocke effect- X-Men's Psylocke had been a strong, well written character who dressed like a librarian. And she was British. Then Marvel made her into a sexy Japanese ninja assassin who wore a skimpy bathing suit. The comics sold, and I don't think she ever got any solo stories or had any good writing. DC may have been trying for the Chris Claremont era Psylocke with their female characters, but used cake to substitute for story and character development.
Your "suddenly vapid teenage Kara" voice really got me.
I will make the nit pick that Kara showing up at the gladiatorial arena in costume might not have the desired effect, since as Hal points out the red and blue are well-known throughout most of the universe! Frankly, I'm just wondering where she GOT the lolita outfit and plushie in the first place...🤔
This was a wonderful video, Saha. You really did a great job on it and brought up some great points. If they bring Supergirl into Young Justice, I hope that she is depicted a little different than when she returned to the DC universe.
Also I do love that Batman/Superman story arc that reintroduced Supergirl. However, showing her as a flirty superhuman teenager did remind me of how Starfire was introduced to us as a flirty and sexy alien superhuman.
I really loathe overtly sexualized depictions of teenagers, so this makes me happy they aged her up for that awful CW series. The last thing we needed was another Greg Berlanti show full of brooding hot thirty-five-year-old teens.
@Tiny Manticore
If they really wanted an older Supergirl why didn't they use power girl? like did they not have the rights at the time or they did but chose not to use her
@Tiny Manticore
Power girl in my opinion is the best depiction/version of Supergirl due to her being older wiser and the leader of her own superhero team the JSA BUT has little to no live-action appearances & is hardly used in current comics,
The biggest problem with the CW Supergirl is that she was literally written to be like her cousin Clark from her job to her fighting her cousins villains to her new costume in the later seasons looking more like her cousins
@Tiny Manticore
Teenage Supergirl has been written well in the DCAU & the Superman/batman apocalypse movie, both DC Superhero Girls shows have done an amazing job of writing Supergirl, the 2000s Supergirl comics improve significantly once Sterling Gates took over
@Tiny Manticore
They honestly should have went the Smallville approach with the Supergirl tv show which would have worked a lot better BUT noooo instead we get "genderbent Superman" and once again if they really wanted an older Supergirl they should have done Power Girl instead
@@naquingreen1603 I think they went with Supergirl instead of Power Girl to capitalize on the Superman IP, rather than genuine interest in Kara. They changed the character so much to make her a female version of Clark, like you said, instead of focusing on developing her in her own right, which not only shows a lack of respect for the character they chose to adapt, but undermines the whole feminist message they were going for.
I swear, I love your Batman bits. It must be murder on your voice.
Cake tastes good when you add the right ingredients. Some enjoy the parts of the cake where there is extra cream, and some are just good with the bland cake. What they can both agree on though, is that too much cream will make the cake distasteful.
For what it's worth, Ventura was a planet that was mentioned off and on in the Legion of Super-Heroes comics. If I recall correctly, it was portrayed as a party planet or planet to go have fun at or go shopping at.
Being reminded at the Uber cheesecake nature of Turner’s art in the reintroduction also reminded that Jeph Loeb writes books for the artists. Man, that Jeph. He knows what the fans of particular artists want. Sometimes to the nth degree. It’s really evident when he wrote Supergirl with artists like the late Michael Turner and Ian Churchill.
What really detracts is the incestuous stories involving Supergirl and Supergirl herself, being lusted after by Superman. Fortunately, I missed the later fetishizing after the Batman/Superman series that you were mentioning.
I think there was a comics story where Supes said, and I’m paraphrasing, “If you weren’t my cousin…” Wow.
Ok. I didn’t mind the Batman/Superman stuff but the Brave and the Bold comics with Lolita fetishizing Supergirl and her father figure fetishizing got to me. Weird.
The if you weren’t my cousin comes from the silver age.
@@KalEL224 Yeah it was written by Jerry Siegel himself. In a later silver age story they actually kiss each other and there’s a lot moreeeeee incestous stuff in Pre Crisis than Post, I’d say.
My Favorite Supergirl runs are Sliver Age , Bronze Age Darling Adventures of Supergirl , Pre New 52 2nd half and DC Rebirth run.
The BatB comic was absolutely creepy, to me in ways that I embarrassingly relate with.
I was one of those teenagers who was attracted to a person or two who were incredibly older, that were like friends of family or something of a similar nature. You're young, you're infatuated, you're developing romantic interests, and you try to 'casually' find ways to get closer(like asking to share an aura-er I mean a Jacket) so you can almost fantasize that it's because they must secretly like you. I think it's more common than any would want to admit because as you get older, it's like a cringey thing to think back on for yourself.
HOWEVER, Hal constantly repeating her age was an issue to me, because it came off that it wasn't an obvious issue for him that she was underage. He needed to constantly remind himself that she was too young, like she was a near irresistible temptation. He's been a space cop for how long, dealing with how many universal events, yet he is so distracted by the need to remind himself that he doesn't want a visit from Chris Hanson. Really? It could have been a comical, learning, or developmental moment for her.
Like, just politely telling her that she is too young, understands what she must be going through at her age, but has no interest. It started off as that but his conclusion solidifying his reason is that she's Superman's cousin and recommends a change of costume! ONLY TO STILL REPEAT THAT SHE'S 17! Creepy! AND IT WASN'T RELEVANT AT ALL TO THE STORY!
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
I love your batman voice, its makes me LOL everytime.
There is no such thing as too much fan service... I say this as a cultured man .
Hello, fellow man of culture.😄
@@Facade953
Nice to meet you (tips the top hat) 🎩.
14:10 DANG!!! Superman didn’t need to use his heat vision for that burn. lol 😂
I lament that comics will ever have another artist like George Perez. No other artist makes me feel like I’m watching a high budget movie crafted by a team who cared about every shot.
No one else explains the D.C. universe like this. Was a Marvel guy, so these videos are AWESOME!!! (Very in depth looks at characters)
Yes. It was a bit creepy on anime level. Supergirl was 17.
Sonic look awesome and matrix is hype.
Lol I am unashamed in my excitement for Sonic 2.
@@CasuallyComics yes me too
@@CasuallyComics I abso-friggin-lutely hated the first Sonic live-action movie BUT I honestly hopeful and optimistic about this one.
Lol it looks like Jim Carrey dialled up his Eggman even more. I'm not sure how that's even possible but I'm here for it.
@@CasuallyComics plus knuckles introduction. Making it obvious how though sonic want to be a hero. His arrogance and recklessness make him seem like a villian. But he is just a child.
Ever since I watched your "Comet" video, I haven't been able to think of Supergirl without also thinking of that Creepypasta ASMR Super-horse.
Good lord that story's still fresh in my mind...
(Also, I love your Batman voice😂)
I really liked Joe Kelley's run making Kara moody and rather disinterested in superheroics. She being angst filled just made her more interesting to me. It was like Zack Snyder's Superman but done right.
I thought i was the only one who liked New 52 Supergirl!😅
@@Facade953 Joe Kelley's run was definitely the foundation of new52 Supergirl. I was so mad when they revamped Kara to be more like the CW show, especially since we never saw her deal with Kal-El's passing and replacement.
"Nuance lives here." You are the best!
I like the current CW version of Kara. The writers consciously presented her as her own agent, keep a little of the cheesecake, but made her complex and emotional while still having her some struggle between her years as Kryptonian and being raised by conflicted humans while still introducing Superman as a mentor. I think it was not until season three that we saw more than Superman's arm in the opening.
Dude in that show
It felt more like they want to Wright Clark rather then Kara
But they couldn’t so they made Kara Clark
And just to point out I don’t hate supergirl in the show I do like her mostly when interacting with the flash
But I ain’t calling the show the gold standard of how to Wright supergirl
@@painvillegaming4119
Agreed Supergirl in that show was written like her cousin rather than her own character & the show barely even focused on her & focused more on her adopted sister Alex (who doesn't exist in the comics BTW) who gets a lot more focused, also the show used more of Superman's villains rather than Supergirl villains which made it even more clear as day that the writers were clearly trying to write Supergirl like her cousin &
Supergirl's new costume in the later Seasons even ripped off her cousin,
Supergirl is said to be stronger than her cousin in the show BUT constantly gets her butt kicked in every single episode and season by "villains of the week" & the main villain, her romances are written out or ignored in the show like her relationship with Brainiac-5 isn't even used in the show at all & her relationship with Mon-el was toxic due to the obsessed fans who literally threatened the actors in REAL life to get together even though both actors were married to different people but that did not stop the death threats against the showrunner and writers,
@@naquingreen1603 ah the CW affect thank god superman and Lois being produced by HBO max
@@painvillegaming4119
The show also underused Martian Manhunter a lot more than Smallville IMO like in the later Seasons he is barely even in his Martian form and gets his butt kicked just like Supergirl even though in the comics Martian Manhunter is stronger than Superman,
Another questionable decision with Martian Manhunter was changing his uncle and niece relationship with Miss Martian to instead be a romantic one which made literally no sense since every fan who grew up on Young Justice and read the comics saw these two as uncle and nice BUT in Supergirl they are instead in a romantic relationship?
@@painvillegaming4119
I like supergirl with her interactions with the flash and her interactions with the other heroes in the crossovers like Invision, crisis on earth x, elseworlds, and crisis on infinite earths,
.... But Hal's fridge would of been destroyed along with the rest of his home when Mongul destroyed Coast City. That event would of been a lot lot less than 17 years earlier.
I still remember when Hal didn't have an apartment even before Coast City was destroyed just cause his life was so erratic. So I was like, Hal has a fridge!
@@CasuallyComics Unfortunately so did Kyle Rayner.
Your videos are wonderful, love your takes on these stories.
Supergirl's body got showcased to excess in this era with more skin than costume. Her mid-drift design began with the WB cartoon (emulating teen fashions). Athletes (gymnasts, swimmers, wrestlers, runners) reveal just as much (not on US television, which mandated above-the-waist shots since the 70s) but the attitude here was about titillation. As for sex undertones, only the writers can be accountable. (Glad you brought up the males; Superman and Batman's forms in Turner's art were intimidating, to say the least, but I suppose they would be.)