FGO isn't something that exists to add to or expand the mythos of Fate Stay Night. It's written and structured to facilitate collecting jpgs of beautiful women and then spending money to make the jpgs smile at you.
@@Lowdian Yeah, but 3 that aren't bullshit like "Artoria in a bikini" or "Artoria in a lion onesie". So, Lilly, normal, and Lancer. Alter forms do not apply as they are variations upon variations, rather than distinct entities in and of themselves.
*Delurks* Before I say anything? I'm not going to pretend that I'm any sort of expert in the minutia in Nasu's works as the guy changes shit every few years and it's been years since I've touched the original FSN. That being said? Here's some corrections: First off is the catalyst. While you can use a catalyst in a summoning, you don't need one to perform it. When you actually don't use it, the Greater Grail will 'match' a servant from the Throne that it deems best for the Master. The use of the Catalyst itself, while not necessary, merely overides the Grail's choice and gives the master a chance to summon a servant of their choice. Rin's intended use of her crystal was to power her ritual and not as a catalyst, which in the FSN timeline results in being used accidentally as a catalyst. Now for the Master selection: The Grail chooses it masters before hand possibly months or even years in advance with a slot generally reserved for the three founding familys (Tohsaka, Matou and Einzenbern). If they chose to participate then the Grail will guarantee them a spot through some unknown means. Third? The Throne of Heroes, the source of the Servants, exists outside of both the world and the Time Axis. While I do agree that in the original timeline that EMIYA couldn't be summoned as Archer, another EMIYA could. Diverging Timelines are something that another Fate game, the second in the Extra series named Fate/EXTELLA, explores albeit on a smaller scale. So in theory another EMIYA that hasn't taken part in the HGW or originating from a world that the Fuyuki Grail war doesn't exist could be summoned in EMIYA's place. We actually see such a EMIYA who's remarkably similar, called Nameless (or Mumei) by fans, in the Extra World. If you consider FGO canon (I kinda don't) he could be summoned by the Grail. Fourth: To answer you question on if Time is fluid or segmented? It's normally segmented with certain events that cannot be changed (according to the Extra series), with the only way to alter it via a Grail-level power (according to FGO). I suggesting looking up the Wiki article on Quantum Time-locks for more info. Finally, Unlimited Blade Works. Amazing ability that Shirou popped out of nowhere that overwhelm Gil, right? It's... unfortunately a lot more complicated than that. Literally. To put it simply: One of the biggest factors that contributed to Shirou being able to use UBW in UBW (geez, not confusing at all!) was due to skimming knowledge via witnessing Archer using it and supposedly some sort of Bleed Effect between the two. Without Archer? It's been state in a Q&A that it would take ten years to develop the foundations of UBW, and another ten years to use it proficiently. So it's not something that Shirou can just simply bust out even with Rin's help even if she knew he had it. Which runs into another problem with your video: Reality Marbles are extremely rare with less than ten known users in recorded history. While Rin would know what a Reality Marble is, odds are that she wouldn't know the signs of it nor would she likely guess it's true nature until all possibilities are exhausted. That being said, Shirou winning against Gil with UBW has one factor that you're forgetting: Shirou needs to be able to use UBW well enough to the point that he's capable of pressuring Gil to the point he can't use his full capabilities. If he couldn't and allowed Gil to regain his composure? Well, even Shirou said he would lose. This went on a bit longer than I would like. Remember that I'm not an expert and Nasu's universe is a messy and complex place, but if you want access to some people who know way more than me? Head to the Beast's Lair forum if it's still around. Now, until next time... LURKER POWERS ACTIVATE!
3)The Original Archer absolutely is EMIYA.You said it yourself: "The Throne of Heroes, the source of the Servants, exists outside of both the world and the Time Axis. "
Strong agree, important caveat being reality marbles aren't super rare... in nonhumans. There are only a handful of pure humans that have ever achieved one, Shirou being one of them. Particularly old Apostles and similar beings tend to have them though.
@@ssjokg4952 Geo, it's only a possibility at the moment. All we know about Archer's timeline is bare bone details that doesn't match up with one of FSN's timeline. Could his Archer have been EMIYA? It's a possibility, but that's all it is: A possibility. With most Fate Materials being off shoots of the main FSN that tend to be more of 'what if XXX happened'? It's just as possible that another Archer was summoned just as much as it could have been EMIYA.
@@swampfox6416 There is just no way for Rin to summon anyone else. As long as she does the summoning she will get EMIYA. EMIYA at the Throne has the pendant so no matter what he will always connect to her and be summoned. Just like Shirou will always summon Artoria because of Avalon. It has nothing with what happens in FSN's routes. Archer-Shirou was saved by Rin and kept her pendant till his death, which then became his possession as a Heroic Spirit. As long as Rin even attempts to do the ritual she will end up with EMIYA.
You don't need a catalyst to summon a Servant, the catalyst helps if you really want a specific Servant. If you summon without one, the grail will choose the Servant for you, based on their similarities to you, just like Sakura and Rider. Most Masters try to avoid this because while being compatible works, you may have a huge chance to get Servant that just bad, since the grail is able to pull even the most normal human (Avenger) as a Servant
Fate having a segmented time was long established in Nasu's works even in Stay Night itself. The existence of the Jeweled Sword and the Kaleidostick which both uses the Second True Magic is proof of it because it is literally the "Operation of Parallel Worlds". Also Nasu stating many times that every route and ending "happened" because they are branching timelines. It is a rule of the system created in the first Holy Grail War itself that Servants of the seven classes must be present for the ritual that is the Holy Grail War. If there are less than seven heroic spirits the Grail will "drag in stragglers" with even the bare minimal aptitude to be Masters. Therefore an Archer MUST be summoned, however it is not set which Servant has to be the Archer unless a catalyst is used which will draw in the Heroic Spirit of the figure associated with the catalyst that is from the given world as shown in FGO. So for example no matter what only that version of King Arthur can be summoned with that summoning system, the male Arthur of Fate/Prototype cannot for example because Prototype is not just a different timeline, it's a different World same with how Tsukihime and Mahoyo are different Worlds in the same multiverse too. What Rin failed in her summoning ritual was pulling a Saber which she aimed for, and it was Archer making her think that her Servant has no memories because she messed up even the ritual itself, not just he class she aimed for. The most likely answer to the Archer question is there is a timeline where Rin's pendant didn't act as a catalyst because there was no Counter Guardian Emiya yet, therefore a different Archer class Servant accompanied Rin. Things play out similarly to the Fate route(Shirou gets stabbed, Saber is summoned, Saber injures Rin's Servant, Rin's Servants dies to Heracles to save time, Saber beats Gilgamesh, etc.) but Shirou will follow his self destructive ideals in that naive manner Archer was so triggered about and only gets his reality check when having to cull the people he wished to save endlessly as part of the Counter Force. Fate/Stay Night is an inherently different timeline from the Archer's original one because Archer is there to affect Shirou's development. Also Gilgamesh is not part of the Fifth Holy Grail War. He was incarnated into a living body by the corrupted Holy Grail at the end of the 4th war. Sakura even mentions in Heaven's Feel that gobbling up Gilgamesh is an unexpected extra so she doesn't need to consume Medusa anymore. Archer also explained that in his case the catalyst was in reverse. It wasn't the pendant in Rin's hand that acted as the summoning catalyst but the one in his possession ensuring that there will be a a time at some point where his summoner is Tosaka Rin, and he was through many Holy Grail Wars waiting for it. Archer's fighting style revolves around planning and specific counters to overcome the odds so him having a tactic to deal with Gate of Babylon in Unlimited Blade Works also makes sense considering he saw it in action even if he never encountered another Gilgamesh after the war. It is impossible for Shirou to use his Reality Marble or advanced enough Projection without Archer's influence so early so in Archer's original timeline it was most likely Saber who beat Gilgamesh. TL;DR: The Nasuverse is a fucking rabbit hole of endless information because Nasu puts inhuman amount of detail into his settings. Archer's own timeline was stated and shown to be similar to the Fate route but Rin's Archer is probably a different person, and neither Shirou nor Saber manage to get character development resulting in Shirou getting his reality check after death. When trying to understand the setting you must look at later titles too. This is a well made video. The theory is incorrect, but most people doesn't understand the whole Nasuverse setting entirely. People with extensive knowledge and understanding on it lurk in the forums of Beast's Lair.
How would you explain Berserker losing 6-lives? That seemed to be an EMIYA Specific feat that even Berserker was impressed by & seems key to the story staying similar to Fate.
@@millennial_weeb2382 I hope you likely long nerdy tangents 3 months after your initial comment because that's what's coming at you right now. So I'll start off by saying I don't think it's an Emiya specific thing at all, and I'd be curious to know why you think so! Because I can see why you might have thought that, the way everyone reacted made it seem impressive. And it certainly was impressive, but that's only because, without seeing his reality marble, Archer would be a relatively unimpressive Servant- similar to Rider. His swordsmanship, while polished, is nothing in the realm of Heroic Spirits. There's a scene early on in the visual novel where Saber and Archer fight briefly upon meeting for the first time before Rin interrupts it. In the skirmish, Archer manages to impress Saber by not instantly faltering under her blows. She had assumed he was making fun of her/not taking her seriously when he summoned Kanshou and Bakuya, as there's no feasible way "Saber" could lose to "Archer" in a battle of blades. Still, she goes on to state, more or less, that if the fight had continued uninterrupted the best Archer would have been able to muster would be managing to slowly lose- hardly an effective strategy. Bear in mind, this is an already debuffed Saber- thanks to having an incompetent master like Shiro- who likely wasn't even fighting him anything close to her full strength. On the topic of his other skills- his "Archery", while impressive and undeniably effective, is rather basic compared to the nutty things the famous Heroic Spirit Archers are capable of. His physical capabilities, while remarkable honed and polish, are utterly unremarkable in the world of heroic spirits, bearly surpassing that of relatively unknown heroes. What heroic spirit EMIYA excels at- the *only* thing he excels at- is forging blades. So much so that if he wasn't a terrible magus it is my opinion that would likely have been one of the heroes with legendary status. Even if you can create the most powerful weapons in existence and understand them so completely that you could draw out their power as well as their original- it doesn't mean much if doing so would kill you in the process. Archer literally says this to Saber- that he could- if he tried, summon an Excalibar virtually identical to hers and draw out its true power. It's just that doing so would require so much more mana than the meager amount he posses that if he were to do so he would likely die before he could even swing the blade). ALL this to say, while Archer- through the use of Unlimited Blade Works, is a much more impressive hero than what he initially appears to be, he still has many weaknesses and limits. The main reason why Archer does manages to impress Illiya so much is that it's unthinkable for an archer class heroic spirit to face a berserker class head-on. But he didn't just face him- he rocked him, killing him 6 times- likely in a similar manner to Gillgimesh in UBW, simply pinning him down and bombarding him with an overwhelming hail of blades. The only difference being Gilgamesh is actually able to follow through, while Archer just runs out of gas. This, by the way, is the reason why "The only heroic spirit Emiya Shiro can defeat is the king of kings"- because they essentially do the same thing, but Shiro/Archer actually does it *better*. Which, in a normal fight against a regular opponent, wouldn't matter at all because he would peter out in a matter of seconds (he was able to fight for much longer against Gil thanks to Rin), but it allowed him to overwhelm the prideful Gilgamesh who stubbornly refused to accept the fact. *ANYWAY,* all this rambling aside, I think any relatively noteworthy Archer class heroic spirit likely would have been able to accomplish pretty similar results to Archer. Maybe they'd have gotten a life or two less due to the bad matchup and not actually being a sword wizard in disguise, but so long as Rin got a decent hero on the level of Cu'cullin or Caster things should have more or less played out the same. So I don't really believe it's an Emiya specific thing at all.
Alternatively it could be a weird thing where she summoned Ishtar herself, but severely gimped version given the circumstances. Since they have that most suitable host connection stuff going on.
Funnily enough that could work as shown by fgo ishtar being 40% rin and the 'pure' ishtar from strange fake; rin and gil are actually really compatible since that 40% rin is what makes ishtar in fgo tolerable to gil.
So you've started on Fate now. As a wise man once said "That's hell you're walking into." From Stay Night, you can try either Hollow Ataraxia, another looooong visual novel which expands on many of Stay Night's characters though the tone is a lot more light hearted and comedy centered. Or Fate Zero, a prequel with a fantastic anime adaptation with a more similar tone to Stay Night than Hollow. Also there's Today's Menu for the Emiya Family if you want something wholesome.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Zero's edge just made me laugh like a mad man honestly. It wasn't even that dark, especially that scene with Kerry and Illya, that shit was so funny.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Fate hollow ataraxia is a really dark story lying underneath lots of wholesome filler,I feel like nobody talks about how dark Hollow ataraxia is and only talk about Fate/zero and heavens feel lol
Hollow Ataraxia is fun. The original VN is good too, with three routes unlocked only after you've played the first and second one. Also only the first route can be played, if you try to divert it'll force a bad end.
Very interesting! This is a topic that any veteran Fate fan would wonder about at least once, but it is nice to see someone taking the initiative to start a discussion about it. That being said, I have some issues with your theory, as you seem to disregarding a few critical bits of information. I will be listing them bellow: 1 - the possibility of Rin utterly failing her summoning and not becoming a Master in her own right is virtually nonexistent. When the three founding families (Tousaka, Matou and Einzbern) created the Holy Grail War of Fuyuki, they set a rule in the system that representatives for each of the three houses would always be found among the participants. True, the Grail of Fuyuki had a penchant for "breaking its own rules" as you said, but that would still be a pretty extreme violation for this particular system. So even if Rin did not get EMIYA, she would still be able to summon some other Servant. 2 - the clash at school and the subsequent incident of Lancer stabbing Shirou probably still happened, even with some differences from what we see in Stay Night. There are two reasons for this: first, Archer (EMIYA) clearly stated in the UBW route that he held on to Rin's pendant because it was used to save his life once. Second, the many works of the Fate universe have repeatedly stressed the existence of "unsavory ties" between Archer (EMIYA) and Lancer (Cu Chulainn), often describing it as "karma carried from a past life". As such, it makes sense to consider that particular event as the source of all. 3 - although not mentioned in the story itself, official sources (fanbooks, Character Materials, etc) clearly stated that EMIYA only became capable of using his Reality Marble after dying and turning into a Counter Guardian. In life, he was only able to rely on his normal projection magic, with the whole Broken Phantasm-thing being regarded as his final trump card.
4:00 multiverse and segmented alternate histories ate heavily confirmed in the Nasuverse, as it is the basis of essentially everything that happens in part 2 of Grand Order and all of Kaleid Liner.
Parallel worlds/multiverses are also confirmed in the F/SN VN in Heaven's Feel, as that's how the Jeweled Sword operates; it uses mana from identical locations on parallel Earths.
...wouldn't Saber still recognize Gilgamesh from the Fourth War and be inherently suspicious? She could say as much to Rin, which would cause her to doubt Kotomine's intentions.
This is my big problem with the Theory, Saber remembers everything as per her contract. She would call out Gilgamesh & probably not even want to willing work with him. Knowing Gil he won’t be able to keep his mouth shut from making statements that would cause issues.
@@millennial_weeb2382 i am not sure i am correct about it, but from saber's perspective, rin's father is the one who summoned gilgamesh, does she even know about kirei's betreyal and owning gil?
Interesting theory. But I’ve always assumed that Rin just summoned another Archer class servant, since one can still summon a servant without a catalyst, only that it’s random. And then things played out similarly to Fate Route, with the exception of Shirou by the end couldn’t save Saber’s heart, most likely caused by not winning her affection. But I wouldn’t conclude that Shirou’s lover wasn’t Saber, it could’ve been one-sided. That’s my take.
I had the same idea, as EMIYA's bow may have been something he copied from Rin's original servant. I had read someone who narrowed possible archers for the bow, but I sadly cannot find it
@@naivarobin9540 Unknown. Nasu once said that Archer was from a timeline similar to the Fate route, which would include Shirou/Archer was in love with Saber. But at least in the Ufotable's Heaven's Feel and UBW, it looks as if he was in love with Rin. I don't know if it's like that in the VN though.
@@jairomelchor8024 In the VNs it's more clear that EMIYA is Fate route due to his memories of Saber having never faded from his mind unlike Rin's, with the added mention by Nasu in materials being, "not saving Saber's heart", hence why he goes on to become a CG.
While your theory is interesting, it’s fails in that it’s falsely predicated on the notion that Rin needs a catalyst at all. It’s been established lore wise that you don’t need a catalyst and will be paired with the servant most suited to you. This is the reason why Shirou canonically would’ve summoned Spartacus if not for Avalon being inside of him.
The catalyst thing is a retcon Urobuchi made for f/z. The f/sn vn by nasu states that a catalyst is required for summoning. Given how Shirou's original timeline would've been conceptualized by nasu as he's writing f/sn it should strictly follow the canon established in f/sn.
@@scylecs not really, in FSN in the HF is mentioned the thing that you always summon a servant that is similar to the master, that is explained in HF, even in Hollow ataraxia is adressed that fact again
If I recall correctly, it's not the Servant most suited for you, but the Servant that's most similar to you, if you wouldn't get along with someone similar to yourself you won't get along with your Servant.
From what I understand was that the root is everything and stores everything even different futures. An example would be every version of Shirou is recorded into the root already so there was always been an archer Emiya recorded as a counter guardian because the root is everything so It would be impossible for Rin to summon a different servant unless in a different timeline when she does not use the pendant. This still applies to how any Fate timeline is all cannon and have multiple infinite universes.
I would love to see them explore the future servant possibility more. The idea of a Servant from the future is interesting. Since it's already mentioned that for someone to become a heroic spirit in the modern era is harder than it was in the past. So to what circumstances in the future would allow the creation of a heroic spirit would be really cool. Especially skills and noble phantasm that connect to this future timeline in some way. Maybe not necessarily an archer with sci fi weapons or something but something interesting nonetheless.
Kind of is, kind of isn't. A heroic spirit is someone of note in the history of mankind. Famous authors, explorers and philosophers all count as heroic spirits even with the fact we explicitly know they didn't have special magic or superpowers. What they're referencing in that quote is that it's harder for people to take someone seriously for their actions anymore, so making a legend is trickier. But far from impossible. In the modern day war heroes, generals of note, and powerful authors and people at the head of social movements or strong ideals in modern culture could most likely make it to the position of a heroic spirit. Off the top of my head, Oprah basically a shoe in, almost certainly Obama, possibly the current pope, absolutely Stephen hawking, and do recall Armstrong was confirmed a heroic spirit in CCC. They just can't be used because they're either alive or time needs to move on to the point where it'll be safe to use them in a story.
@@goldenbrigain7031 Dou you really think Obama will be remembered outside the USA in a few decades? A Heroic Spirit has ben shown needs both a thing that in fate is called "Mystery" and Fame thorough Time, that is tge reason that it becomes near imposible for things from the future to become HS, only Counter Guardians wich are given Mystery by Alaya could become HS, I dont remember Armstrong being confirmed but it sounds likely, anyway that's it.
@@goldenbrigain7031 Obama and Oprah are only famous on us on the rest of the world they are just tv celebrity and another mediocre president of United States
@@yokai1235 If how famous you are on a global scale were the criteria it would've been impossible for any heroic spirit to be recorded until some form of Globalization were established. Specifically, to be recorded into the throne of heroes requires that you possess a legend. Several of the figures in fate currently are a menagerie of legends that only spread or were famous in certain lands, got remembered, and that was pretty much it. Many of them aren't widely known in the greater cultural sphere of mankind at all right now and it wouldn't matter if they never were in our lifetimes due to the fact of the throne of heroes existing outside time. This also isn't accounting for position. Irregardless of your own fame or even the power of your country if you are a part of a body deemed important by a select group of mankind you will be recorded. Obama, whatever he is, was a president of the united states. To skip over some context, that position alone counts basically as a heroic spirit itself and everyone who holds that title, very much irregardless of even how long they held it much less how well known they were for it, WILL be recorded as a heroic spirit. Oprah likewise is a spiritual hallmark of american culture. Again, it isn't so much whether or not the greater world remembers her overmuch even, so much that she makes an impact on a viable selection of humanity, more points if that part of humanity has a sizable level of power in relation to the rest. The throne of heroes will even force someone on the throne so long as they commit a viable action like doing something mankind has never done before. Completely irrelevant of their own personal fame so long as the act itself is pertinent to human progression, identity, or so and so, the person who enacts it will be recorded. To make a long story short, opinions and being well known to everyone (which by itself is a fucking shame of a goal) really tend to mean fuck all in relation to being recorded in the throne of heroes. So long as mankind basically thought you were worth remembering for whatever reason, you'll be recorded. For instance, Shiki Ryougi from Kara no Kyokai actually can be recorded as a heroic spirit if in the future her acts and deeds are discovered and thought to hold weight. The exact same thing happened to an alternate reality version of Shirou Emiya, but it goes to show action is more important than fame overall.
@@goldenbrigain7031 all hero legends were wider known king Arthur mith was known in the entire Europe on medieval times japonese legends were known in China and closer country the mith of gilgamesh was known from Greece to west asia conqueres amd roman emperors are famous from Europe to Asia to North Africa there act changed human history the romancist and artists on the throne of heroes are people that revolutionized the literature and arts Leonardo da Vinci invented anatomy drawing Shakespeare revolutionized the modern theater and some of its works are one of the most important item on English literature iven for its time to be on the trone of heros you need to have something greater that people will remember for really long time
I agree 100% with you!!!! It also explains every route even Heaven's Feel. Shirou does eventually turn into Archer regardless a servant of justice/guardian. Archer is critical also in Heaven's Feel 1,2, and 3 .
Bruh not to knock Nasu, I mean, it's hard to imagine him fucking it up, but I feel like he'd go crazy retconning everything to the point that the story may come off as a jumbled mess like in Fate/Extra Last Encore. Maybe if Type Moon does a full remake of the VN, I would enjoy seeing it added after we roll credits on HF, that way Nasu has no choice but to be as concise as possible.
@@judotaku_7829 I agree Nasu does have a lot of experience writing VN's and light novels, but the reason Nasu's Fate/Extra Last Encore script was so incredibly bloated and bad was because the ability to write stories directly for the anime medium is an entirely different skill in which Nasu didn't have the experience (and honestly) neither the brevity to do, so I think an archer prequel story would be great as long as Nasu doesn't with it directly for an anime
@@yurineri2227 Yes, but let's be real, Nasu has a bad habit of retconning incessantly. I learned that the hard way when I created the complete Nasuverse Timeline on Reddit.
I mean, that's kind of the point of Archer's plan. He wants to create a paradox so bad Gaia/Alaya will just get rid of him rather than resolve it. Obviously it doesn't end up working that way.
Considering FGO is part of the universe's canon, the existence of the Lostbelt chapters, and by extension the "pruning theoretical phenomenon," implies that the Fate multiverse timeline is segmented. It's entirely possible that, as a Counter Guardian, Archer's existence is similar to that of Mushashi's in FGO; wherein her timeline has already been pruned by the world and because of that she wanders through the multiverse without really being anchored to them. This means that no matter what Archer does to even attempt returning to his own timeline, he cannot do so because it no longer exists. Edit: Something you missed out on explaining is that in the Heaven's Feel route, Archer appears to have been aware of the Black Grail. This implies that the Black Grail likely had a part in the events of his timeline.
How does Fate lore benefit in any way from the inclusion of FGO, a game clearly written to sell you microtransactions to summon cute girls? It's so far removed from Fate lore that it may as well be an AU with some of the same faces.
@@Antiformed By introducing alternate versions. Like Caster Gil and Lancer Artoria or new stories like the Camelot Babylonia (which actually got an anime adaptation) pseudo singularity era lostbelt era all written by Nasu. And just because it doesn't follow the general rule of what a holy grail war is does not mean its not canon. Fate/ Apocrypha doesn't follow the general rule of what a holy grail war is because they have 14 servants but that doesn't mean it's not cannon. More so it adds to cannon by introducing us to characters like Mordred.. Artoria's son. By going by your logic every spin off of is an AU BUT THEY ARE ALL CANNON AU's so it does benefit.
@@Antiformed Well for starters *everything* in FGO is written by Nasu, even though a multitude of artists are employed to bring his ideas for certain characters to life. Fate existing as a multiverse from day one in FSN with the existence of Archer as a Heroic Spirit and his awareness that even if he were to kill Shirou he would not cease to be a Heroic Spirit or a Counter Guardian. Even if we ignore stuff like Waver's Case Files or Prisma Illya, there's also Fate/Extra, Fate/Apocrypha, Kara No Kyoukai, and Tsukihime, all of which existing within the same universe but unable to exist within the same timeline due to differences in how their histories don't line up. Prisma Illya itself plays with the idea of Fate existing in a multiverse when they explore Miyu's backstory. Call it an AU all you like, but it's no more removed from Fate lore than Extra, Apocrypha, Case Files, Prisma, Requiem, Strange Fake, or any of the other extensions of the fate multiverse. Just because you dislike something doesn't mean it isn't canon.
As someone who has read the VNs, I double checked the prologue from Archer's point of view back when he was Shirou, and have to disagree with your initial assertion that in Archer's original timeline he wasn't stabbed through the heart, and didn't acquire the pendant a manner similar to what we see in our Protagonist Shirou's timeline. We see in his flashback, his shirt is similarly blooded when he first summoned Saber. (Granted this could by them reusing the same panel, but I highly doubt that.) We notice Rin already forgets the pendant even in the present timeline, with Archer offering his own as hers. So, with this I speculate the encounter with Cu and Shirou being stabbed through the heart and saved by Rin happened, even in Archer's timeline. This leads to the question if so, how would Shirou have encountered Cu in such a manner without Rin having a Servant to fight, well, again this falls in speculation territory, but, Lancer Cu being an efficient follower of orders noticing Rin as a potential Master would have been enough for him to try to attack her. I can say that with confidence as we see him do the same thing to Shirou right before he summons Saber. So, it's rather easy to follow with that logic is Shirou gets entangled when he tries to save Rin, being he is Shirou and that's how he gets stabbed in the heart and saved by Rin later on, buying her time to escape. The rest of it can play out like you said and imagined, but, I'm certain that he was still stabbed by Cu and saved by Rin even in the timeline he became Archer.
Personally, I speculate that the Timeline Archer came from has something to do with the Fuyuki Grail War we hear mentioned of in the Mobile Game, Fate/Grand Order, but, that is too speculation on my part.
I tried to figure this out once and then just gave up cause it's so damn confusing. Also, l heard that there were other routes planned for fate stay like a Medusa route, Caster route, Shinji route, Mash route and even a stand alone Sakura and lllya route (apparently heaven's feel was a combination of Sakura and lllya). So maybe archer emiya could be from those routes. Lastly, l like to think that Archer emiya's timeline had a similar event to Kotomine trying to trick Saver into making a wish on the grail like the bad end where saber chooses the grail over Shirou.
I would love to see an extension of routes. Honestly they are pretty much unlimited. Just a different choice here or there that does not get Emiya-Kun killed by Truck-Kun and boom, new route. I would have liked to seen both Medusa and Medea routes. Once you play Ataraxia it is really hard not to love Rider.
@@mattroxursoul The closest one to Medea route i got is fanfiction called "Path of The King". It's so great that if there will ever be an official medea route, this'll be the one.
@@reinashbell5041 I have read it and enjoyed it. Thank you for the suggestion though. With the way that world works there is an infinite amount of story lines. Madea would be very cool in order to help teach Shirou stuff about magic.
@BOOFIRE191 Also important details from other fate works the throne of heroes is outside time as such why it has heroes from the future, also time is indeed a multiverse with multiple timelines inside the different universes however from fate extella there is a confirmation that in universe some timelines are quantom time locked
Whew, going down that rabbit-hole, eh? Good luck. I would suggest that, if you want to learn more about the World and how this verse handles its "timeline", definitely go through the EXTRA games and side materials (Extra, Extra CCC, Extella, Extella Link, Fox Tail, etc.). While a tad messy, Extella has the one of the most straightforward presentations for how any of it works. Grand Order does, too, but then that would suggest diving into FGO and that's a special kind of hole I won't take responsibility for lol... Of course, getting through the Stay Night stuff first, such as Hollow Ataraxia is also a viable option. As for other visual novels that may or may not interest you, Baldr Sky is a (recent for English audiences) fascinating pick to look at. It's sci-fi, it's mechs and tackles some common topics of the genre in its own unique fashion. Thought-invoking, yet quite divisive. I quite enjoyed my time with it.
Well FGO supports that time cannot be changed. Like when the player interacts with Nero,she has a vague feeling about knowing as. So that means all original 7 singularities are cannon to human history, but are forgotten because the player fixes them.
Slesh_Master If I recall in the seventh singularity, Gil actually corrects that line of thinking and says that time did indeed change, people still don’t remember it at all of course after it’s all done but the timeline itself does some minor fixes to at least make it something still resembling the actual past.
No? I could have sworn that the singularities were just that "singularities". They are essentially dead ends that if not corrected they could destroy the proper "human" timeline. They are time locked in frozen stasis. They can't progress they can't go back.
@@Samm815 It sounds like you're mixing Singularities and the Lostbelts. Singularities in FGO are like holes opening up in the timeline itself. It's something that doesn't happen in recorded history, thus necessitating the reparation by going back in time. Lostbelts are the dead ends of humanity, the parallel worlds where human reached a point of stagnation and were thus pruned by the World. They were brought back via the Fantasy Trees from the Alien God and compete with one another to overtake the now bleached world and the Panhuman History, reverting the world back to the Age of Gods.
That’s absolutely incorrect. The Singularities and all of FGO belongs to a separate timeline that has many of its own rules. The singularities don’t exist in other timelines as the last host of the demon god pillar needed to complete the plan offs himself after he learns what he’s to become.
@@Miasma_ Singularities do exist in other timelines, it's just the Counter Force erases them like they're supposed to. The reason they can't do that in FGO is because of Goetia and the Temple of Time. Also no, FGO follows Fate/ rules way more than other works like Prisma, Requiem, or Strange Fake. It's just simply a more modern version being set in 2015 and onward, with technology enhanced magecraft. It is still very much a Fate/ world, unlike Strange Fake which borders the line between Tsukihime rules and Fate/ rules, or Prisma that follows entirely different rules.
I think it’s sweet how in every timeline, even the ones we don’t see, Rin falls in love with Shirou. Very nice romance. Also you didn’t mention it but I’ve always believed that the OG timeline had some elements of Heaven’s Feel as well. Like the Mind of Steel band end seems to indirectly reference this, or at the very least exists as a showcase of the many roads Shirou could take to reach a similar existence as Archer.
The other angle for Rin’s summoning is that she could’ve summoned Ajax/Aias as it would’ve been the only way for Shirou to learn Rho Aias directly, something that couldve been used against Gilgamesh during a situation where Rin would try to save Shirou and Saber. Rho Aias is also a very taxing a painful noble phantasm to project within and outside of Unlimited Blade Works and could’ve contributed to Shirou’s burning that whitened his hair and cooked his skin from over use. I don’t agree with the Kotomine handing Gilgamesh over to Rin theory because Saber and Gil’s conclusion in the 4th war would put them in an uncomfortable shaky alliance in which Saber would always be hostile against Gilgamesh, one of the two people that prevented her from reaching the grail (the other being Kiritsugu). I think if this theory did go the way you suggest, Cu might have been the one handed over mainly due to the subjective evidence laid by Nasu’s writing where Rin admires Cu or Cu wishing he had a master like Rin in future adaptations of FSN, and “Not!Rin” in Extra having Cu as her servant. Not to mention that Cu and Emiya have this love-hate rivalry from the very start of FSN and you can almost see Emiya snark creep up in UBW Shirou when he tells Cu to stop acting funny around his woman, even catching Cu off guard before playfully yet respectfully yielding to him and teasing Rin. I would not doubt that Cu would’ve cause some jealousy in original Shirou if he had to sit and watch Cu get giddy with Rin while he gets nowhere with Saber and translates into the Emiya-Cu relationship. I did enjoy the analysis, I wish Nasu would stop hand waving away the original time.
The whitening of his Hair and Body is already been explained due to him literally using his body as Steel to create many weapons in his UBW. Like that from Miyuverse Shirou whose bangs were whitening due to him using UBW even after completing the war.
The original Shirou was definitely stabbed by Lancer and saved by Rin because he has her pendant as a Servant. That means she definitely had a Servant and battled against Lancer in the original timeline. I think it was also mentioned by Archer that the one moment he always remembered was that of Saber standing in the moonlight after she saved him. It still isn’t clear just who Rin’s Servant was in this timeline though.
The theory of segmented time lines/parallel worlds was confirmed in Nasuverse, but I have some points I would like to share: 1) Time travel is the second of the five remaining Magics/Sorceries/True Magics "Zelretch/Kaleidoscope", and only one DAA mastered it and no one else in all of Nasuverse 2) Rin's pendant is something like a proto-version of her 'miniature of a miniature of the 'Jewled Sword Kaleidoscope' 3) She calls on the name of Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg when summoning Archer, so she might be always calling him from the convergence of all timelines in the Root 4) Since the Root itself is a paradox/impossibility it creates the Counter Guardian to take care of abnormalities In conclusion EMIYA the Archer always exists, he has a partial 'Time Exemption Clause' because of his deal with the Root there is no 1st/original one. And in my opinion all of his variants start when Cu stabs him.
The way I see it time travel in Fate is multifaceted. Yes, it can loop back in on itself, but it can also branch off into multiple timelines. This is why I believe EMIYA was still in the original timeline as a heroic servant and why he can still appear in other routes such as UBW.
I just want to take this moment to point out that the purpose of knowing what the rules of a Holy Grail War are in F/SN is so that we, the audience, can know what rules are currently being broken by the participants.
I want this to be true because it's interesting, but it's possible (and unfortunately more likely) that Emiya is Rin's servant in both timelines. Nasu has stated in an interview that Archers' original timeline was mostly like the Fate route but that "something was different," a lot of people including you yourself seem to have interpreted this as a different Archer having been summoned, but we could far more easily interpret it as the romantic aspect of Shirou and Saber's relationship having been missing. It's the most straight-forward way to explain why Shirou, "understood Saber but couldn't save her heart." and would definitely constitute something being different. He treated her as a person and not a tool, but didn't get romantically involved like in Fate. We know for a fact that Archer had an identical wound from Lancer to F/SN Shirou when he summoned Saber in his own timeline because the image of Sabers' summoning in the prologue isn't actually from the point of view of our Shirou, it's a memory of Archer's. (Nasu is apparently baffled that people didn't get that and it's made a bit clearer when Archer is killed by Saber in Hollow Ataraxia. He's made at least one blog post to clear it up that I know of.) While it'd be fun to speculate that Rin showed up with a totally different servant and got into another similar fight with Lancer, it's just too messy. If the situation is totally different a lot of "what-if's" have to be imagined to explain how Shirou wound up in the exact same scenario with the exact same wound with a completely different set of circumstances. A much easier answer is right there. It was always a version of Archer, and it's even possible with the VN's own logic. The throne of heroes and the way time works in Fate is a bit on the wonky side, but we do know from Archer himself and subsequent instalments and statements that the throne exists completely outside of time. As long as there exists a timeline in which Shirou becomes Archer then a version of Archer can always be summoned regardless of paradoxes, which includes Archer Emiya's own timeline. It's more than possible that a version of Emiya could have been summoned by Rin in Archer's original timeline, and it's even more likely when you consider that the reason Archer is summoned in F/SN is because he had Rins' pendant on him, the same pendant he got when she healed the wound he sustained from Lancer, exactly like our version of Shirou. Then there's the different branches of the story. In every route the story only begins to branch out at the moment Shirou summons Saber, this is also the moment we see Archer remember in the prologue and I don't think that was an accident. If we think of Archer's route before F/SN as being a "fourth route" that we don't get to play through then it makes logical sense to have circumstances be exactly the same up until that diverging point. It's where the stage is set for Shirou to start making a real difference in the story and Nasu went to lengths to make sure we knew that, that moment was identical for both Shirou and Archer. There was no need to include Archers' memory of the summoning in the prologue at all and there was definitely no need to have it be in exactly the same circumstances with Archer Shirou on the floor bleeding from his heart. That was a conscious choice, and it's likely a hint to us as the player that Archer Emiya's story branched there too.
2:17 Regular Heroic Spirits are also used across time by the Counter Force and we can clearly see that in FGO where Heroic Spirits are summoned to ages way before their own birth.We also see them summoned by mages as regular Servants. 3:48 Because the Throne of Heroes that stores the info of heroic Spirits is removed from the time axis so it doesnt matter if Archer is "created" at all.There are no paradoxes. 4:15 There is a multiverse. FSN on its own with its 3 routes and over 40 ending proves that this is a multiverse. And really not sure how Archer' being summoned across time in any way proves anything. 5:10 Again. Archer is removed from the time axis.There is no issue with him being summoned in the timeline where Shirou becomes Archer. The Throne is removed from the time axis so that makes paradoxes impossible. Saber says it herself.Archer killing any Shirou wont do a damn thing since he, Archer, already exists as a Counter guardian. 5:47 No?Archer's advice helps Shirou use his projection.It had nothing to do with saving Saber.They had no real interactions besides him giving him projection advice.And even that was a in a cryptic way. 8:17 So you throw the entire premise of Archer getting the pendant after Rin saved him. 9:16 You really need to realize that the Throne simply doesnt care about TIME. Your whole idea about the flow of time is weird anyway. Rin's summoning happens before saving Shirou, before fighting in the war, before Shirou becomes Archer etc. So based on the timeline even in Fate,UBW and HF, there CANT be an EMIYA with the pendant in the Throne since Shirou didnt go through any of the events that would make him into a CG. Why are you thinking of this as a time loop?All of these timelines happen in parallel.If you are correct then Archer arrives at the Throne ONLY after Shirou wins, at least, the 5th war.I wont say that he has to make the contract and then die.By this logic EMIYA CANT be summoned in any FSN route before the end of the war since he doesnt exist yet. 9:40 Except she was already a Master and even without a catalyst you can get a Servant. Shirou must absolutely get stabbed in the heart in order for Rin to save him and him to pick up the pendant from the floor. 12:26 Except that Archer didnt even remember Rin until she told him her name. Kinda weird to forget your lover's face and whole character, especially someone Rin. "Yes. That is the pendant you held on to throughout your life after you were saved. It is the one and only memento of Tohsaka Rin's father." EMIYA talking about both him and Shirou. The rest of the speculation is based on the assumption that Rin doesnt summon EMIYA or any other Archer Servant which simply is false. 15:38 Gil got a human body and no longer counts as Servant of a HGW(still is a Servant tho).If he did then Rin would never summon an Archer. 16:00 Archer only told him to beat him.Shirou and co came to the conclusion that UBW is their only trump card.And even then it only works if several other factors are also present. Shirou wouldnt even be able to deploy UBW if not for Archer saving him with Rho Aias. And without Archer around, in your supposed original timeline, Shirou CANT learn about UBW. Even Archer himself got UBW AFTER his death. 17:20 The very first scene of the Visual Novel is Archer's memory of being saved by Saber when Cu attacked him at the shed. 18:00 ~ 18:40 This doesnt make any sense whatsoever . 19:30 Except that he isnt. 19:48 Except that Shirou can make bad choices even without Gil around. Are we forgetting how Saber kills Shirou for the grail in the Fate route? 20:09 Nope.Archer got his UBW after death as I stated above. 20:58 Then why didnt Shirou get UBW in Fate route? They have no idea about UBW and Archer isnt around to explain. 21:22 Maybe because they are essentially the same thing? Both summon weapons and throw them at their enemy. It doesnt take 1000 IQ to realize that they cancel each other out.It Archer never explained anything.Rin and Shirou understood that UBW is the natural enemy of GoB.
@@naivarobin9540 I'd assume it would have been Saber since Archer's timeline is the Fate Good Ending that Nasu/Takeuchi didn't use. I could see it being Rin though and Archer's amnesia is just him blatantly lying.
@@marvel672 Takeuchi did call it "Good Ending" but it was everything except that. Even if they did have sex like they did in FSN, she was gone after they won the war so she cant be EMIYA's lover. As for his memories, it is half truth.He doesnt have amnesia but he did forget stuff due to the passing of time. He realizes who Rin is only after she tells him her name. I can believe him forgetting his highschool crush but an actual lover?Seems unlikely.
Technically... Shirou getting stabbed in the heart by Gae Bolg and Rin saving him thereby leaving the Red Pendant to Shirou is a "Quantum Time-lock"...
I believe this is all a biproduct of the main core events of the 4th Holy grail war, such as (spoilers) Kotomine Kirei finding his purpose in the war, leading him to murder Tohsaka Tokiomi, Rin's father, as well as being persuaded by Gilgamesh with the idea of entertainment; Rin being a heir to the Tohsaka family, thus being entrusted with the pendadt and the Azoth dagger by her two Mentors; Shirou being saved by Emiya Kiritsugu from the fire, someone who claims to have given up on being a hero of justice only for Shirou to be entrusted with that same wish on Kiritsugu's dying moments.
Well without all that complicated shit, what I got from the anime was the reason Emiya was summoned was because he still had the pendant and he had it because he was saved by it as shiro. I think shiro would have still been attacked and saved by the pendant despite archer not being there. Also I think Archer always loved Rin because Archers outfit looks like it was made from Rins shirt.
No, the archer lancer fight has to happen, Emiya has to die, Rin has to revive him, Shiro needs to be chased bloody into his shed, and unlimited blade works doesn't come into being until much later in the original Emiya's life so it can't be a factor in the original grail war. Shiro would straight up die in a first fight with Berserker, there are several times when he does die from berserker because he doesn't have a servant, Gil would legit finish him off for shits and giggles without Saber, and without the magic from Rin's pendant sabers sheath would not have the power to revive Shiro on its own. Also Saber knows Gil, the two of them cannot share the same battle field, she can convince herself he doesn't remember, but I don't think Gil would be able to play along, hell he'd kill Shiro just to have Rin keep her close.
Well I don't know that this fight has to happen. Lancer just needs to stab Emiya. That is the Fate. Another fight could have made this happen. I actually agree with you that Epic spirit Emiya was there though. Cause of Archer seeking a paradox. If Archer was not originally there, then that Paradox would be impossible
Archer still loves Saber according to HA (So he would not go for Rin probably). You can summon a servant even without a catalyst ( So obviously Rin could do it to)
@@mattroxursoul Yeah, I didn't mean it has to be Emiya Archer in that fight, only that the fight has to happen there, and since saber and archer were the only classes left open, and we know Shiro was always paired with saber, it just seemed a given that she'd have an archer. Technically lancer could've fought rider, and Rin could've been trying to spy on the fight when Shiro got caught, but yeah it has to be lancer who stabs him because he's the only one who would just leave him there initially and then hunt him down afterwards. Illya would have taken him, rider and caster would've ignored him after the fact, and assassin's not applicable.
I think odds are strong it was Archer Emiya though. You are right about explaining Lancer being the only one who could make those events happen. It has to be Rin using her jewel to heal Shirou. Would be curious if Nasu would ever go into that if asked. Who knows maybe after Tsukihime 2029 we will get Fate 2052
Personally my hypotesis was that archer EMIYA simply was killed by saber somehow when they first met, or was killed by someone else before he could get closer to shirou
Too much time traveling theory. The truth is much more simple, Nasuverse is a multi-universe, so It's doesn't actually matter if Archer kills Shirou or not, he can't change what happened in his original universe. He's not the same Emiya Shirou, he's another person from a different universe. He was trying to kill Shirou only because it was his last hope to find realese from Alaya's serving.
Kiara Sessyoin, BB, and the Sakura Five are technically examples of servants from the future, however they throw in even more complications because Kiara can only be used as an Alter Ego, and BB and co. are artificial intelligences that are also mostly Alter Egos (BB is a Mooncancer) meaning that there are even more convoluted circumstances behind them. On a related but more stable note, there is an alter version of counter guardian Emiya, Emiya Alter, who exists because of Kiara Sessyoin destroying the last vestiges of his humanity. In regards to the timelines, there is simultaneously a multiverse and a way to change one's own timeline as seen in Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella. FGO presents that there is a potential for unlimited timelines, however all the ones that have an obvious outcome are removed -compared to pruning a tree- so that the uncertain timelines may continue to develop. Fate/Extella brings up the concept of time locks, which are related to the preservation of certain timelines. These are points within a timeline that become hard locked- there is absolutely no way to change the results of events that are locked in, even if you tried to change the past before them (I believe that it's actually impossible to travel back to these points anyway, but I didn't actually play Extella). It remains possible to change events that happen after a time lock, but not the locked events themselves. Of course, with the number of rules and exceptions that exist, even these rules may be completely meaningless for all I know.
So went through first few comments bringing up fgo and yes it is canon that there are alternate timelines/world in fate. No one has brought up that it explains all this in fate extra, extella and extella links. Play these games, extra is about to get a rerelease update and it looks amazing. The whole series is fun to play.
9:31 in fate zero ryuonuske (caster's master) didn't had a catalyst. The novel explains that if the master doesn't have one, the servant would be one with similar traits and personality as the master.
One theory that I have that could explain why archer knew how to defeat gilgamesh is that mabey in a reality that gilgamesh destroyed the world like he planed to archer was sent back as a counter guardian to stop gilgamesh so mabey he knew his reality marble would work because he beat gilgamesh himself with it in another reality
Didn't Rin had feelings for Shiro? When she transferred her mage's seal he saw her deepest memories and one of them was staring at Shiro. That's why Emiya kept the pendant it belonged to Rin. This story is a very violent love story.
Eh... You can't really apply the concept of time on Archer as he is outside the grasp of time and space, simply put it's as if telling someone they can see just because they have eyes, when in actuality someone is blind. Archer is indeed has eyes and is effected by time and space when summoned, but time will never effect his main body in the ToH the same way no information from the eye would reach the brain when one is blind. Though of course I'm not talking things literally, Archer isn't blind, although he could probably still see while being blind since his Clairvoyance skill is really vague on how it actually works.
Though it would be possible (or likely) that Shirou would use the pendant to summon UBW, I think at first the pendant returns to Rin. Later the two develop a relationship, which sooner or later breaks apart not because of a fight, but because of Shirou's ideals which drive him to a place Rin can not follow him to. As Rin reluctantly let's him go (which she would surly regret for the rest of her live) she gives him a parting gift, a memento to their relationship and what they have been through. Now if said gift was the pendant, it would make a lot of sense if he would carry it with him until his eventual demise and so also onto his seat among the servants.
this is wrong on so many level. For a start, they is no time travel, because when shirou became a gardian, his new "Home" Is the "Throne Of Hero", a place outside of time, and once on the throne, you are always on the throne, from the beginning of the universe to end, that is why archer know that killing shirou in other route is pointless, even if he still try. The experience that he gather and is summoning on the holy grail is just a clone, a temporary body from who he will gather experience and knowledge. Second, the contract that shirou made was with Alaya, the, to simplify, spirit of Humanity, and not a otherwordy being. Third, the use of the catalyst for rin was intended from the start, while a specific catalyst can summon a particular hero, they is no garanty, no catalyst will summon a hero that a best suited for you, probably with similar goal, or mentality. She never "fail" the summon, she summon the perfect hero, compatible with her on a personal level, with a catalyst to boost the summoning. The rest is rather a rather good interpretation of the event as you lay them. Good vidéo.
I think it's actually as simple as the Grail granted Shiro's heart's true desire to save everyone he cared about and feel worthy of his life being spared. Shiro called it being a hero, and couldn't envision a way to do it, so it took him for a fucking ride. All that "Fate" energy going along until he COULD imagine a way to do what he wanted, and changing as he realized what he ACTUALLY wanted. I'm biased coming from Fate/Zero, but there are parallels in the Emiya stories for a reason. One made the wish, and one didn't, one was willing to pay the price of sacrificing their existence for the world they wanted, and the other wasn't. Rin 100% could have still summoned Shiro Archer and likely did, just not a Counter-Guardian Archer.
Well as fun as that dive was, it could be considered the major catalyst towards the original fate at the same time creating a parallel trinity of timelines that could be explored. One of which with Rin going to the church, Kotomine could possibly use her as a pseudo frail from the onset. Or Rin doesn't go the church, to which he send Cu, and after Cu notices her compatibility to be a master, somehow tries to break his contract with Kotomine, which can lead to another Alliance with Iliya or Madea, on account of her Noble Phantasm severing contracts. In fact the more you look at it, the more the events change based on all the options available. But if we are to go by the rule of time being segmented in the Nasuverse, the best example to use to show the motion of time and that an anchor point has to exist would be Arturia and the Sword of Selection, Caliburn. If summoned, She could easily be drawn into her own past so long as it isn't at the time of her ascent to the throne, meaning that she could be summoned to even the Age of Gods with all her memories intact, but not to the point of her becoming a hero. This also holds true of Archer Emiya, his point of origin is not the actual 5th Grail War, but a point after where he made a contract with the counter force. He can never go to that point ever, no matter how close in time to that moment he is, at the same time, he could not change that specific moment either as it would not change his ultimate outcome of being a counter guardian.
What if Kotor 3 happened according to plan to Bioware and Vitiate's Sith Empire that we got in Swtor was instead replaced with the orginally plan secretive Sith Lords that we had hints to in Kotor 1 & 2? What could of happened in Kotor 3 and how vastly different would of these True Sith be compared to Vitiate's Sith Empire?
Wait, you do know that the multiverse is an actual thing in the nasuverse right? The moon cell can't exist in timelines where Brunstud exists, fate/requiem is specifically cited as a different "world" from fate grand order, and fate grand order's timeline only had 3 Grail wars because everything happened completely differently there (hence why marsibury participated in the first place; in worlds where doctor heartless didn't confirm the grail could accomplish what he needed, he never attends and abandons Olga). Also there are "fate" worlds and "Tsukihime" worlds differing depending on the relative power of either Alaya or Gaia. Also there can't exist two wielders of the mystic eyes of death perception in one world but Tohno Shiki and shiki Ryougi can exist if one is teleported to the others world/timeline...Also the entire basis of the second magic is multiverse theory proven right. Hell the kaleidoscope crystal sword Rin uses in heaven's feel specifically only works because it explicitly drains magical energy from infinite parallel universes. Also, if Rin didn't use a catalyst that wouldn't mean a servant wouldn't come. The ritual summons the servant most compatible with the summoner using them as the catalyst in the event that they don't have one prepared. That's how Ryuunosuke Uryuu summons Caster in the fourth holy grail war.
@@BOOFIRE191 eh, just spitting it out there. More importantly, how do you think one would summon a true servant (as opposed to a regular servant or a grand servant as the original heroic spirit from the throne) from what I understand you'd need massive fucking amounts of magical energy and probably as many ritualistic materials and occurrences as you could get your hands on. Beyond that, how do daemons use magic?
@@goldenbrigain7031 Summoning the proper Heroic Spirit by a human magus is impossible. Even the Grail itself can't handle a Heroic Spirit, which is why they have to limit them to the class containers. Only the World would be able to summon a genuine Heroic Spirit
@@BOOFIRE191 it is very VERY unlikely that a mage from the three main families would fail to summon a servant, her summoning was NOT a failure, it was just not "optimal" since she fucked up due to the clocks being early bullshit and wasn't at her maximum potential. The other part I find it hard to agree upon is the pendant, Archer knew EXACTLY when rin uses & loses her pendant at the school skirmish, thats why he returned it to her exactly after that event, claiming she had left it there (which she did but this is a pendant from archer's timeline). If things happened differently and he acquired it in some other fashion/time he wouldn't have returned it to her when he did.
Timeline in Nasuverse is Branched. Both actions can happen forming different timelines. One where Archer Killed Shirou and one Where he didn't. So, even if he killed Shirou, it wont affect his past one tiny bit. Remember, in most timelines when Archer is summoned he cannot remember his past for some time. This I dont think it is him lying, but rather Alaya messing with his mind. Also the original timeline could be something like 'Predestination'. A Loop that was always meant to happen. Either because of Alaya, Gaia or Akasha. After all Time travel isn't impossible in that multiverse. Both Zelretch and Aoko are capable of it.
While I most definitely agree with a vast majority of what is stated in this video, from Time being segmented (Multiverse is nothing new in Type-Moon) to Rin failing to summon a servant thus has Gilgamesh being her servant and even having it that she teams up with Shirou because she's very suspicious of Gil and Kirei. All of that makes sense and I can quite easily see working. *But* there is one thing that I have to disagree with, Shirou unleashing UBW and like in said route defeat Gilgamesh. We know that normally it would take Shirou several years- possibly decades before he could learn to use his magecraft and reality marble to a proficient level. The only reason in the UBW route that Shirou was able to do that so young was because he absorbed Archer's abilities/skill I think it would make much more sense that like in the actual fate Route Shirou gives Saber Avalon which allows her to defeat Gil. Meanwhile he defeats Kirie- most likely with the help of Rin. Sounds much more believable in my humble opinion
It's still entirely possible for him to use it in this one instance in an urgent need. Similar to how Shirou yanked out his projections against Kuzuki in UBW to protect Rin, even though they were far from being decent projections, they still did their job in that instance. So it can still work that Shirou managed to get UBW up for that one instance to fight Gilgamesh, and then after that, have to train his Circuits to be able to utilize it again at a higher level. I can see what you mean though when you say that it wouldn't work as well though. I admit this can be a bit of a faulty justification
The way that timelines work in the Fate series/Nasuverse as a whole is that there are fixed points/events in the timeline that can not be changed. Even with time travel or with a summon into the past like Archer in this case, the particular event of Shiro giving himself to the Counter Force is one of those fixed points that can not be changed, Archer was fated to fail in erasing himself regardless of who else died.
The Second Magic, Kaleidoscope, achieved by Zelrech Kischur Scheinorg allows the FATE multiverse to encompass the Operation of Parallel Worlds. By this we can understand NASU used a bastardized version of String Theory to be able to pull out all the alternate versions of all our favorite characters, including Archer Emiya, all the Arturias and basically FGO in general for all the fun and shenanigans in his stories/games. For example how the FATE universe is a parallel existance to the Tsukihime universe, also a parallel existance to Apocrypha, to FATE/EXTRA and still even parallel to FGO (which in itself is another can of worms in exploring mutiple "close" parallel existences that affect each other).
Man I just.....even the BACKSTORY BACKSTORY premise would've been so interesting to see. Like, Rin having to be Gil's Master? phenominal. I need that content.
Ehhh quite a quite few holes, one being how drastically it actually does divert from the fate route and how not similar it is. But also shirou probably never dated rin, or if he did it would be short term. At the end of ubw it says "if a girl like her stays with emiya shirou, the hero emiya should not be born, his words contain such hope", pretty much implying that she didnt stay with him, so the whole "he had a caring lover" from extra is probably not talking about rin. The archer from fate extra is a different archer with similar life experiences but made a contract with the moon cell and became a nameless spirit and is much less cynical or filled with regrets than normal archer. So not everything that happened in his life would be guarunteed for stay night archer. Hell it might even be possible rin summoned moon cell emiya if that is possible (not knowledgeable on the moon tho) who wouldnt have as much regrets or feel as much need to advise shirou. Isnt it also pretty heavily implied archer had to learn unlimited blade works the hard way as opposed to getting it early? He never had archer to help him with the foundations and would take ten years to develop. Dont forget as well that archer doesnt have his past memories of the fuyuki war and would only remember small details like the vision of saber being summoned, and would have no recollection of fighting gilgamesh if he did. He probably saw the babylon attacks from gilgamesh and thought "yeah my marbles can counter dis shit".
Currently at 11:40. I know you're focusing at the Fate/Stay Night, but in the Fate/Zero, at the 4th Holy Grail War, Emiya Archer is also Present. Certain Event's could've changed through this alone in the Fate/Stay Night, but since we're focusing on the Stay Night part, then I'll state this. Due to Tosaka Rin being unable to summon a Servant, she still went to the School and found the same runes and such that she removed and took her time off the School, leading to her meeting up with Emiya Shirou, who informed her that he's only there to fix some broken stuff, Clean the Dojo and that he forgot his bag, but she noticed that Shirou has no Tools that sometimes associates of fixing something and decided to go with him to his home. At the home, after a few discreet way to check if Shirou is a Magus, she confronted him then and there, leading to Shirou to show her his Workshop, which lead to him suddenly summoning Artoria Pendragon without his choice to the shock of the 2 Magus. Through this is alone, Rin probably trick or convince Shirou to give up the Command Seal to her, and made her Artoria's Master instead, but on a Deal that Shirou would help in this War. Rin did fall for Shirou, yet so many bad things occur at this point. Death of Matou Sakura, Artoria Loosing to Heracles, and so on. Shirou took those lost and the calamity that occured next that lead to him becoming Emiya Archer and the only supporter and lover he has is Rin, but in the end, she died and the only thing that he has of her is the Pendant. Alot more changed if we add what could've occured if Emiya Archer isn't present at Fate/Zero that could've changed so many things in Fate/Stay Night as well, and we'll never know unless someone did a video about it.
Your thoughts on how time is segmented are absolutely spot on per Fate canon. Within Fate is a phenomenon known as the Kaleidoscope, which is hit upon in the Heavens Feel route, where diverging timelines create parallel worlds. My feeling is that there is an Archer summoned, and fills a role that Gil did in the original Fate route for a period, namely the killing of Medea. His appearance would tip off Rin as to the irregularities around Kotomine, and set up the final confrontation with Gilgamesh. And who would this Archer and their master be? My best guess is Luvia (arrived after Bazett didn't report in) who summoned Atalante (we know Luvia has a catalyst tied to several Greek heroes due to Fate/Revive). Atalante would target Medea to the exclusion of all others, but would herself be an easy takedown for Gilgamesh.
Sitting on it today, a further thought crossed my mind: namely Kanshou and Bakuya, Archers swords. These are real world swords, used by the assassin Zhuan Zhu to kill the usurper Emperor Liao. In every timeline, Shirou encounters the swords by meeting Archer, but where did Archer get them? What if this other Archer is the source? Zhuan Zhu was a general in the Wu army (alongside Sun Tzu) so would be skilled in all combat arts, including archery. But those swords would be an ideal catalyst for him.
-The summoning probably wouldn't outright fail. I believe you are correct in assuming archer wasn't summoned in the original timeline, however archer seemed to already have an understanding of the event in which Shirou was stabbed. -It seems heavily implied that Saber didn't just spawn in that moment for no reason. She answered his call when he was in the verge of being killed by Lancer, making it so the summoning might not even have happened without that event. -Archer lived for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, and regardless of the timeline he was at least somewhat aware of Gilgamesh, even if we ignore the fact that heroic spirits do generally have some knowledge of each other's strengths and weaknesses once they learn their true names. It's not exactly far fetched to say archer just came up with the idea that his reality marble was the literal perfect counter to the gate of Babylon during the millenia he had to think about and perfect it. -Shirou using his reality marble to defeat Gil in the original timeline is missing a critical factor: Shirou didn't just learn how to use the reality marble from archer, he imported his sword skills and all the swords stored within the reality marble from archer as well. Put another way, the original Shirou's reality marble with his skill at the time of the fifth holy grail war definitely wouldn't have been able to match up with Gilgamesh at all. Shirou would've been skewered before he ever got a hang of it.
Good theory but even if the pendant wasn’t connected to anyone it was use more as a energy source rather than catalyst, the summoning ritual would still work on account that a servant close to her personality would be summoned due to a lack of catalyst to summon a specific servant.
Very interesting. Though a few points and questions not touched on in this video. First the time line is most likely segmented to account for, Heaven's Feel, Prisma, Apochripha, and Grand Order at the bare minimum. As all these different Fate routes tie back into Fuyuki's Holy Grail War at some point it is safe to say we have diverging timelines creating a multiverse. We can add in Extra/Extallia as well to these counts because of Archer Emyia being a servent their as well, to where we have 3 versions of Emyia as an Archer Class servent with The base form "Nameless" we see from Stay Night, Oath Under Snow, Prisma, and Extra/Extallia. We have Archer Alter his more corrupted aspect that embraced the "necessary" evil of his father, Seen in at least Grand Order, and then we have a third more "pure" form though I can't cite sources other then the 3 different versions of his Noble Phantasm's spell that create the UBW we are familar with a UBW of a more pure and hopeful nature, and Unlimited Lost Works that turns UBW into a devastating explosive like projectile fired by Alter.
Dude kudos I've been thinking about what could've happened in the og TL for years now and I've got to say I really feel like you hit a lot of the critical points that would've made everything possible and although some people are going to try to poke some holes in this it felt rather solid. Also isn't the fate universe already confirmed to be multiversal at this point further confirming your analysis? Anyway was great to listen to and easy to understand keep up the good work my guy Yo 👋😌
The existence of the Jewled Sword itself confirmed multi-verse even in F/SN. Problem with the theory is Rin would still summon a Servant even if it wasn’t Archer, Gilgamesh is never apart of the 5th HGW & while the grail breaks it’s own rules, it’s highly unlikely, since the grail could easily drag a straggler into the HGW like F/Z.
Rin ended up being paired with Cu in the Extraverse so that's a possibility. However, Bazette had a catalyst and already summoned Lancer... Who Kirei stole.
I wish the Type/Moon Multiverse was consistent the problem I think is more that like many time travel stories it's written as though time is both fluid and segmented because of plot but those are logically incompatible. Archer's story implies that time is fluid and the way the rest of the multiverse is written implies there is a "fate" that everyone has but it there are also clear branches. The best I could put it as is that it seems like the Type/Moon Multiverse has branches that are all already written out and any point in time in any branches is just moving about it. Edit: And let me say your theory is both logically and internally consistent, Nasu's is just internally consistent, that's the issue. You don't really need to worry about where Shiro's guilt came from either, he has survivors guilt and he could feel guilty about both Saber and Rin and literally everyone because of the lack of character growth without him ever being responsible for anything, that's kind of just how it works from my understanding.
Great analysis, I agree with most points but there's one that I disagree on one point. @13:00 I mean... it's as speculative as any other theory, but I would agree that Rin still investigates the Boundary Field at the school since she would be absolutely aware of it. But then I'd disagree with your earlier point and say that Shirou would still get stabbed by Cú - since I view that as a kind of inevitable flag for Shirou. Perhaps it happens later in the timeline, perhaps it occurs at the same point and he just happens to see Cú unintentionally, but the event remains a constant - hell, it's a constant for all routes anyway since it's a core point of the common route. Regardless of what else goes on, Shirou will always get stabbed by a Servant early in the Fifth Holy Grail War and Rin will always save him since that is an inevitable flag. From there the difference here between Fate and UBW (aside from Archer not existing, period) is with his relationship with Saber generally being weaker, and assuming some similar events from UBW, Shirou would catch on that the gem was Rin's, their relationship develops etc etc. But I could just be talking out of my ass. That's just my 2 cents ^^
I always thought it was the Throne of Heroes that is a Timeless place, that allows Heroes from the past and present to come there and its information installed into it. They only use the Holy Grail as the extra nudge to summon them. There originally was a Heroic Spirit Summoning spell before the Holy Grail was created which was discussed by Hans Christian Anderson in the London Singularity. Originally they used the Holy Grail so that a contract and make a wish between the victor of the 7 classes, the Grail supports them so there won't be a huge prana strain.
Holy shit Boofire I appreciate you going into the fluid vs segmented timeliness. Because when I argue with people about this they don't seem to grasp this concept. Although I am convinced that Rin actually did summon a servant. If she didn't survive the attack from Cu then Shiro can't be created she needs to survive, shiro needs to be stabbed, and Rin needs to save him with the pendant. That is a requirement. It has to be the hero who has Rho Aias. It would make sense seeing as that hero could fall to Gilgamesh and Shiro could copy it
Wanna know something you can talk about? the Conflict that is said to happen AFTER the Fate and UBW routes....the Conflict that has Rin and Waver along side their followers against the Mage Association because the Association wants to start another Grail War...the only thing we know is that Rin and Waver succeed...Just imagine if this got adapted..we could see an Adult Shirou with all his abilities mastered
As I understand it, the reason that heroes can be summoned from the future is less that they can be pulled back from the future and more that the throne of heroes is atemporal, not really existing within time it's self. So when you tap into it to summon a servant, you can get literally any servant that resides within, regardless of when and where they became a hero. (Within the bounds of the earth that is, or wherever humans are. It does have some slight connection to the collective unconscious after all.) This is part of the reason why servants can't change between summonings in the original game, because they are snapshots of people rather than people. This is made clear by way of using Saber Artoria as a contrast, who isn't technically in the throne, merely using it as a temporal elevator to get her chance at the Grail, and thus can grow as a person. Course, EMIYA seems to remember his time as the counter force's hatchet man, and apparently servants CAN learn (though FGO Mordred having both versions with and without memories of Apocrypha seems to suggest that the throne just makes a second copy if it likes the character development...) means what is explained in Stay Night may be incorrect, as you posit
I can agree with most of the things you said except Rin unable to summon or failing to summon any heroic spirit. If I remember correctly the grail itself lets you summon a servant based on the master and servant compatibility but this can be overridden by using a catalyst.
i know this is an old video and you probably changed your mind on a lot of things but 1. multiverses are confirmed literally within Stay Night, during Heaven's Feel to be precise 2. it is strongly implied that Archer still holds a grudge towards Lancer for stabbing him back in the day 3. Rin can still summon a servant no problem, she just wouldn't have a catalyst and it would automatically use her personality as one, making her summon a servant we simply do not know 4. Archer likely just came up with a way to beat Gil many years after the war
Apart from this, one other Theoretically possible route would be Kiritsugu actually training Emiya in the ways of Magecraft (like that of Miyuverse). We know that Archer can't possibly be from HF route cuz that route's Shirou was more focused on saving his important ones more than saving all and Shirou's soul was transferred into a homunculus body(?). Or maybe Alaya can also provide another body? Well, we'll come to that later. After the death of Kiritsugu, Shirou actually becomes a proper master and properly summons Saber. Since Avalon will always exist within Shirou, Saber will always get attracted to Shirou. Now, under these circumstances, Shirou may or may not form an alliance with Rin but will definitely suggest a cease-fire between them. Rin could possibly summon another archer or that Gilgamesh situation. Shirou gets an upper hand in the war defeating servants but not killing their masters. Gil betrays/enters. Shirou, who this time can actually use magecraft, as the last bet uses a Reality Marble hoping to buy time till Saber and Rin defeat Kirei and Lancer. He could possibly die and gets revived by Rin and therefore has the pendant. Or, Shirou somehow manages to push Gil back cuz Gil looked down on a Faker. His mana runs out and Reality Marble vanishes but Saber saves the day and FSN closed. Now from here, there may be two possibilities. 1) If Saber route follows and Shirou died in his battle against Gil, He'll join Rin and follows her to study as a proper mage and the Alaya situation follows. This time the romantic partner may or may not be Rin as Sakura isn't dead yet guys and Shirou would never reach Avalon. The gem comes from Rin reviving Shirou in his last battle against Gil. 2) If UBW Route follows and Shirou never dies the whole time, he'll still study in London. Rin is his romantic partner and the Gem could've been a keepsake from Rin. Another possibility is that Rin died due to Gil's betrayal and in a fit of rage Shirou used Tohsaka's Gems to cast a Reality Marble. And this time the Gem is a reminder of Rin and his mistake in the war. In a nutshell, Unless Nasu makes an Archer Route to FSN, you are free to make any possible story for the creation of Emiya. And discussing Emiya Alter is in itself another matter.
Well I mean Merlin being imprisoned in Avalon, practically out of time, was able to be summoned via a contract of sorts with King Gil even though the events of Babylon occurred long before Merlin was trapped in the tower. But we know that Merlin isn't dead and is still/always in the tower and shouldn't be able to be summoned because the throne shouldn't be able to record a hero that never died.
The throne of heroes where Heroic Spirits are stored exist outside of spacetime, thus if in any moment in time Archer comes to be then Archer will always have already been at the Throne of Heroes. Thus Archer would have been present in the first 5th HGW.
Maybe Rin knew Shirou could become a master so after her failed summon, she went to Shirou for protection as she was still a target as a potential target. But since both of them didn't have a servant, Cu thought he could kill 2 potential masters at the same time and Kirei would allow it. But then you got Saber appearing as a servant to both Shirou and Rin with Shirou being the true master but Rin supplying them with magic. Since Shirou would have to protect Rin as well, a romantic relationship would develop and Saber would just be their knight servant.
"A new Archer"
...
It's all fun and games until Rin somehow summons the true Orion
Orion is too much of a Chad to be summoned like that, also Artemis would murder him if he was summoned by another woman
I would like to see a Heracles Archer done well. Honestly making him Berserker is a waste.
Tomas Aguirre No, Orion himself can be summoned into a grail war. But yeah, Artemis would likely fuck things up lmao
@@mattroxursoul Fate/Strange Fake, Heracles is technically summoned as an Archer but is then turned into an Avenger/Archer hybrid
Or adult archer Rama perhaps? No?...Ok
Hey.......
That's hell you're walking into.
Why do I always laugh at these?!? I’ve seen them so many times but they never get old. Help
@@hopelessviolin4690 you dont need help your fine
for a minute i was worried you might have been about to skyrim us
Thank god howard you didn't
I won't like it cause the numbers are perfect
It’s also segmented because FGO exists and you can have 3 different kinds of Artorias in the same team
FGO isn't something that exists to add to or expand the mythos of Fate Stay Night. It's written and structured to facilitate collecting jpgs of beautiful women and then spending money to make the jpgs smile at you.
@@Antiformed No?
@@Antiformed Who hurt you lmao
@@medbii The Gacha, probably.
@@Lowdian Yeah, but 3 that aren't bullshit like "Artoria in a bikini" or "Artoria in a lion onesie".
So, Lilly, normal, and Lancer. Alter forms do not apply as they are variations upon variations, rather than distinct entities in and of themselves.
*Delurks* Before I say anything? I'm not going to pretend that I'm any sort of expert in the minutia in Nasu's works as the guy changes shit every few years and it's been years since I've touched the original FSN. That being said? Here's some corrections:
First off is the catalyst. While you can use a catalyst in a summoning, you don't need one to perform it. When you actually don't use it, the Greater Grail will 'match' a servant from the Throne that it deems best for the Master. The use of the Catalyst itself, while not necessary, merely overides the Grail's choice and gives the master a chance to summon a servant of their choice. Rin's intended use of her crystal was to power her ritual and not as a catalyst, which in the FSN timeline results in being used accidentally as a catalyst.
Now for the Master selection: The Grail chooses it masters before hand possibly months or even years in advance with a slot generally reserved for the three founding familys (Tohsaka, Matou and Einzenbern). If they chose to participate then the Grail will guarantee them a spot through some unknown means.
Third? The Throne of Heroes, the source of the Servants, exists outside of both the world and the Time Axis. While I do agree that in the original timeline that EMIYA couldn't be summoned as Archer, another EMIYA could. Diverging Timelines are something that another Fate game, the second in the Extra series named Fate/EXTELLA, explores albeit on a smaller scale. So in theory another EMIYA that hasn't taken part in the HGW or originating from a world that the Fuyuki Grail war doesn't exist could be summoned in EMIYA's place. We actually see such a EMIYA who's remarkably similar, called Nameless (or Mumei) by fans, in the Extra World. If you consider FGO canon (I kinda don't) he could be summoned by the Grail.
Fourth: To answer you question on if Time is fluid or segmented? It's normally segmented with certain events that cannot be changed (according to the Extra series), with the only way to alter it via a Grail-level power (according to FGO). I suggesting looking up the Wiki article on Quantum Time-locks for more info.
Finally, Unlimited Blade Works. Amazing ability that Shirou popped out of nowhere that overwhelm Gil, right? It's... unfortunately a lot more complicated than that. Literally. To put it simply: One of the biggest factors that contributed to Shirou being able to use UBW in UBW (geez, not confusing at all!) was due to skimming knowledge via witnessing Archer using it and supposedly some sort of Bleed Effect between the two. Without Archer? It's been state in a Q&A that it would take ten years to develop the foundations of UBW, and another ten years to use it proficiently. So it's not something that Shirou can just simply bust out even with Rin's help even if she knew he had it. Which runs into another problem with your video: Reality Marbles are extremely rare with less than ten known users in recorded history. While Rin would know what a Reality Marble is, odds are that she wouldn't know the signs of it nor would she likely guess it's true nature until all possibilities are exhausted. That being said, Shirou winning against Gil with UBW has one factor that you're forgetting: Shirou needs to be able to use UBW well enough to the point that he's capable of pressuring Gil to the point he can't use his full capabilities. If he couldn't and allowed Gil to regain his composure? Well, even Shirou said he would lose.
This went on a bit longer than I would like. Remember that I'm not an expert and Nasu's universe is a messy and complex place, but if you want access to some people who know way more than me? Head to the Beast's Lair forum if it's still around. Now, until next time... LURKER POWERS ACTIVATE!
3)The Original Archer absolutely is EMIYA.You said it yourself: "The Throne of Heroes, the source of the Servants, exists outside of both the world and the Time Axis. "
Strong agree, important caveat being reality marbles aren't super rare... in nonhumans. There are only a handful of pure humans that have ever achieved one, Shirou being one of them.
Particularly old Apostles and similar beings tend to have them though.
O my Ereshkigal! That's one short explanation (at least when it comes to the nasuverse)
@@ssjokg4952 Geo, it's only a possibility at the moment. All we know about Archer's timeline is bare bone details that doesn't match up with one of FSN's timeline. Could his Archer have been EMIYA? It's a possibility, but that's all it is: A possibility. With most Fate Materials being off shoots of the main FSN that tend to be more of 'what if XXX happened'? It's just as possible that another Archer was summoned just as much as it could have been EMIYA.
@@swampfox6416
There is just no way for Rin to summon anyone else.
As long as she does the summoning she will get EMIYA. EMIYA at the Throne has the pendant so no matter what he will always connect to her and be summoned.
Just like Shirou will always summon Artoria because of Avalon.
It has nothing with what happens in FSN's routes. Archer-Shirou was saved by Rin and kept her pendant till his death, which then became his possession as a Heroic Spirit.
As long as Rin even attempts to do the ritual she will end up with EMIYA.
You don't need a catalyst to summon a Servant, the catalyst helps if you really want a specific Servant. If you summon without one, the grail will choose the Servant for you, based on their similarities to you, just like Sakura and Rider.
Most Masters try to avoid this because while being compatible works, you may have a huge chance to get Servant that just bad, since the grail is able to pull even the most normal human (Avenger) as a Servant
It doesn’t help Mages don’t have strong morals given how they are brought up.
Fate having a segmented time was long established in Nasu's works even in Stay Night itself. The existence of the Jeweled Sword and the Kaleidostick which both uses the Second True Magic is proof of it because it is literally the "Operation of Parallel Worlds".
Also Nasu stating many times that every route and ending "happened" because they are branching timelines.
It is a rule of the system created in the first Holy Grail War itself that Servants of the seven classes must be present for the ritual that is the Holy Grail War. If there are less than seven heroic spirits the Grail will "drag in stragglers" with even the bare minimal aptitude to be Masters. Therefore an Archer MUST be summoned, however it is not set which Servant has to be the Archer unless a catalyst is used which will draw in the Heroic Spirit of the figure associated with the catalyst that is from the given world as shown in FGO. So for example no matter what only that version of King Arthur can be summoned with that summoning system, the male Arthur of Fate/Prototype cannot for example because Prototype is not just a different timeline, it's a different World same with how Tsukihime and Mahoyo are different Worlds in the same multiverse too.
What Rin failed in her summoning ritual was pulling a Saber which she aimed for, and it was Archer making her think that her Servant has no memories because she messed up even the ritual itself, not just he class she aimed for.
The most likely answer to the Archer question is there is a timeline where Rin's pendant didn't act as a catalyst because there was no Counter Guardian Emiya yet, therefore a different Archer class Servant accompanied Rin. Things play out similarly to the Fate route(Shirou gets stabbed, Saber is summoned, Saber injures Rin's Servant, Rin's Servants dies to Heracles to save time, Saber beats Gilgamesh, etc.) but Shirou will follow his self destructive ideals in that naive manner Archer was so triggered about and only gets his reality check when having to cull the people he wished to save endlessly as part of the Counter Force.
Fate/Stay Night is an inherently different timeline from the Archer's original one because Archer is there to affect Shirou's development.
Also Gilgamesh is not part of the Fifth Holy Grail War. He was incarnated into a living body by the corrupted Holy Grail at the end of the 4th war. Sakura even mentions in Heaven's Feel that gobbling up Gilgamesh is an unexpected extra so she doesn't need to consume Medusa anymore.
Archer also explained that in his case the catalyst was in reverse. It wasn't the pendant in Rin's hand that acted as the summoning catalyst but the one in his possession ensuring that there will be a a time at some point where his summoner is Tosaka Rin, and he was through many Holy Grail Wars waiting for it.
Archer's fighting style revolves around planning and specific counters to overcome the odds so him having a tactic to deal with Gate of Babylon in Unlimited Blade Works also makes sense considering he saw it in action even if he never encountered another Gilgamesh after the war.
It is impossible for Shirou to use his Reality Marble or advanced enough Projection without Archer's influence so early so in Archer's original timeline it was most likely Saber who beat Gilgamesh.
TL;DR: The Nasuverse is a fucking rabbit hole of endless information because Nasu puts inhuman amount of detail into his settings.
Archer's own timeline was stated and shown to be similar to the Fate route but Rin's Archer is probably a different person, and neither Shirou nor Saber manage to get character development resulting in Shirou getting his reality check after death.
When trying to understand the setting you must look at later titles too.
This is a well made video. The theory is incorrect, but most people doesn't understand the whole Nasuverse setting entirely. People with extensive knowledge and understanding on it lurk in the forums of Beast's Lair.
King this is really good, take my upvote.
How would you explain Berserker losing 6-lives?
That seemed to be an EMIYA Specific feat that even Berserker was impressed by & seems key to the story staying similar to Fate.
@@millennial_weeb2382 I hope you likely long nerdy tangents 3 months after your initial comment because that's what's coming at you right now. So I'll start off by saying I don't think it's an Emiya specific thing at all, and I'd be curious to know why you think so! Because I can see why you might have thought that, the way everyone reacted made it seem impressive. And it certainly was impressive, but that's only because, without seeing his reality marble, Archer would be a relatively unimpressive Servant- similar to Rider. His swordsmanship, while polished, is nothing in the realm of Heroic Spirits.
There's a scene early on in the visual novel where Saber and Archer fight briefly upon meeting for the first time before Rin interrupts it. In the skirmish, Archer manages to impress Saber by not instantly faltering under her blows. She had assumed he was making fun of her/not taking her seriously when he summoned Kanshou and Bakuya, as there's no feasible way "Saber" could lose to "Archer" in a battle of blades. Still, she goes on to state, more or less, that if the fight had continued uninterrupted the best Archer would have been able to muster would be managing to slowly lose- hardly an effective strategy. Bear in mind, this is an already debuffed Saber- thanks to having an incompetent master like Shiro- who likely wasn't even fighting him anything close to her full strength. On the topic of his other skills- his "Archery", while impressive and undeniably effective, is rather basic compared to the nutty things the famous Heroic Spirit Archers are capable of. His physical capabilities, while remarkable honed and polish, are utterly unremarkable in the world of heroic spirits, bearly surpassing that of relatively unknown heroes.
What heroic spirit EMIYA excels at- the *only* thing he excels at- is forging blades. So much so that if he wasn't a terrible magus it is my opinion that would likely have been one of the heroes with legendary status. Even if you can create the most powerful weapons in existence and understand them so completely that you could draw out their power as well as their original- it doesn't mean much if doing so would kill you in the process. Archer literally says this to Saber- that he could- if he tried, summon an Excalibar virtually identical to hers and draw out its true power. It's just that doing so would require so much more mana than the meager amount he posses that if he were to do so he would likely die before he could even swing the blade). ALL this to say, while Archer- through the use of Unlimited Blade Works, is a much more impressive hero than what he initially appears to be, he still has many weaknesses and limits. The main reason why Archer does manages to impress Illiya so much is that it's unthinkable for an archer class heroic spirit to face a berserker class head-on. But he didn't just face him- he rocked him, killing him 6 times- likely in a similar manner to Gillgimesh in UBW, simply pinning him down and bombarding him with an overwhelming hail of blades. The only difference being Gilgamesh is actually able to follow through, while Archer just runs out of gas. This, by the way, is the reason why "The only heroic spirit Emiya Shiro can defeat is the king of kings"- because they essentially do the same thing, but Shiro/Archer actually does it *better*. Which, in a normal fight against a regular opponent, wouldn't matter at all because he would peter out in a matter of seconds (he was able to fight for much longer against Gil thanks to Rin), but it allowed him to overwhelm the prideful Gilgamesh who stubbornly refused to accept the fact.
*ANYWAY,* all this rambling aside, I think any relatively noteworthy Archer class heroic spirit likely would have been able to accomplish pretty similar results to Archer. Maybe they'd have gotten a life or two less due to the bad matchup and not actually being a sword wizard in disguise, but so long as Rin got a decent hero on the level of Cu'cullin or Caster things should have more or less played out the same. So I don't really believe it's an Emiya specific thing at all.
@@animagamer2 I do, I’ll read up on it later today and give a better reply, thanks for the big write up.
@@millennial_weeb2382 Heh, I look forward to your reply then!
Ishtar's connection with Gilgamesh support Rin becoming his master.
Gil in Extra Argues Rin and Ishtar are so alike he wanted to Ea her immediately
Alternatively it could be a weird thing where she summoned Ishtar herself, but severely gimped version given the circumstances. Since they have that most suitable host connection stuff going on.
@@Doralga I don't blame him. Love goddesses is just a fancy way of saying "I'm a Th*t."
Funnily enough that could work as shown by fgo ishtar being 40% rin and the 'pure' ishtar from strange fake; rin and gil are actually really compatible since that 40% rin is what makes ishtar in fgo tolerable to gil.
@@ShdwRvr kind of but then again Gil drew the first blood. He could have avoided the feud by respectfully declining Ishtar's proposal.
It probably does affect something, nasu can sneeze and who knows what’ll happen... it could be a three breasted saber or a new adaptation of Melty
Saber could be a beast class servant with a billion breasts, but they would all be A cup sized.
Fat Cat very true, and just like Nasu the Melty comment gets ignored ;-;
@@fatcat1697 nah at least a c sized since saber face servant are bigger than og Atoria
@@qliphalpuzzle5453 i cant wait for the Melty blood remake thats coming
So you've started on Fate now. As a wise man once said "That's hell you're walking into."
From Stay Night, you can try either Hollow Ataraxia, another looooong visual novel which expands on many of Stay Night's characters though the tone is a lot more light hearted and comedy centered. Or Fate Zero, a prequel with a fantastic anime adaptation with a more similar tone to Stay Night than Hollow. Also there's Today's Menu for the Emiya Family if you want something wholesome.
I think Zero is MUCH darker than Stay Night. I mean one master is a Mass , his Servant a Pedophile and forget what to Berserkers Master.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Zero's edge just made me laugh like a mad man honestly. It wasn't even that dark, especially that scene with Kerry and Illya, that shit was so funny.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 Fate hollow ataraxia is a really dark story lying underneath lots of wholesome filler,I feel like nobody talks about how dark Hollow ataraxia is and only talk about Fate/zero and heavens feel lol
Hollow Ataraxia is fun. The original VN is good too, with three routes unlocked only after you've played the first and second one. Also only the first route can be played, if you try to divert it'll force a bad end.
@@yappidyyap because anime onlies will be anime onlies
And down the rabbit hole of continuities and different timelines. Explaining fate universes is a daunting task
Very interesting! This is a topic that any veteran Fate fan would wonder about at least once, but it is nice to see someone taking the initiative to start a discussion about it. That being said, I have some issues with your theory, as you seem to disregarding a few critical bits of information. I will be listing them bellow:
1 - the possibility of Rin utterly failing her summoning and not becoming a Master in her own right is virtually nonexistent. When the three founding families (Tousaka, Matou and Einzbern) created the Holy Grail War of Fuyuki, they set a rule in the system that representatives for each of the three houses would always be found among the participants. True, the Grail of Fuyuki had a penchant for "breaking its own rules" as you said, but that would still be a pretty extreme violation for this particular system. So even if Rin did not get EMIYA, she would still be able to summon some other Servant.
2 - the clash at school and the subsequent incident of Lancer stabbing Shirou probably still happened, even with some differences from what we see in Stay Night. There are two reasons for this: first, Archer (EMIYA) clearly stated in the UBW route that he held on to Rin's pendant because it was used to save his life once. Second, the many works of the Fate universe have repeatedly stressed the existence of "unsavory ties" between Archer (EMIYA) and Lancer (Cu Chulainn), often describing it as "karma carried from a past life". As such, it makes sense to consider that particular event as the source of all.
3 - although not mentioned in the story itself, official sources (fanbooks, Character Materials, etc) clearly stated that EMIYA only became capable of using his Reality Marble after dying and turning into a Counter Guardian. In life, he was only able to rely on his normal projection magic, with the whole Broken Phantasm-thing being regarded as his final trump card.
4:00 multiverse and segmented alternate histories ate heavily confirmed in the Nasuverse, as it is the basis of essentially everything that happens in part 2 of Grand Order and all of Kaleid Liner.
Parallel worlds/multiverses are also confirmed in the F/SN VN in Heaven's Feel, as that's how the Jeweled Sword operates; it uses mana from identical locations on parallel Earths.
...wouldn't Saber still recognize Gilgamesh from the Fourth War and be inherently suspicious? She could say as much to Rin, which would cause her to doubt Kotomine's intentions.
This is my big problem with the Theory, Saber remembers everything as per her contract.
She would call out Gilgamesh & probably not even want to willing work with him.
Knowing Gil he won’t be able to keep his mouth shut from making statements that would cause issues.
rin already distrust both of them maybe sabers reaction to seeing gilgamesh validates her distrust even more
@@millennial_weeb2382 i am not sure i am correct about it, but from saber's perspective, rin's father is the one who summoned gilgamesh, does she even know about kirei's betreyal and owning gil?
@@Noamalmoggg Seeing someone immoral who tried to rape her still around when he should have died would get some alarm bells ringing.
Interesting theory.
But I’ve always assumed that Rin just summoned another Archer class servant, since one can still summon a servant without a catalyst, only that it’s random.
And then things played out similarly to Fate Route, with the exception of Shirou by the end couldn’t save Saber’s heart, most likely caused by not winning her affection. But I wouldn’t conclude that Shirou’s lover wasn’t Saber, it could’ve been one-sided.
That’s my take.
I had the same idea, as EMIYA's bow may have been something he copied from Rin's original servant. I had read someone who narrowed possible archers for the bow, but I sadly cannot find it
@@ronaldomendoza7578 No, archer's bow was created by Archer of the same materials as his breastplate
so who was archer lover?
@@naivarobin9540 Unknown. Nasu once said that Archer was from a timeline similar to the Fate route, which would include Shirou/Archer was in love with Saber. But at least in the Ufotable's Heaven's Feel and UBW, it looks as if he was in love with Rin.
I don't know if it's like that in the VN though.
@@jairomelchor8024 In the VNs it's more clear that EMIYA is Fate route due to his memories of Saber having never faded from his mind unlike Rin's, with the added mention by Nasu in materials being, "not saving Saber's heart", hence why he goes on to become a CG.
Nasuverse already has a big multiverse anyway. So alternate universes created from alternate timelines due to time travel makes sense.
While your theory is interesting, it’s fails in that it’s falsely predicated on the notion that Rin needs a catalyst at all. It’s been established lore wise that you don’t need a catalyst and will be paired with the servant most suited to you. This is the reason why Shirou canonically would’ve summoned Spartacus if not for Avalon being inside of him.
Lmfao Shirou with O P P R E S S I O N XD
Do you mean Siegfried?
The catalyst thing is a retcon Urobuchi made for f/z. The f/sn vn by nasu states that a catalyst is required for summoning. Given how Shirou's original timeline would've been conceptualized by nasu as he's writing f/sn it should strictly follow the canon established in f/sn.
@@scylecs not really, in FSN in the HF is mentioned the thing that you always summon a servant that is similar to the master, that is explained in HF, even in Hollow ataraxia is adressed that fact again
If I recall correctly, it's not the Servant most suited for you, but the Servant that's most similar to you, if you wouldn't get along with someone similar to yourself you won't get along with your Servant.
From what I understand was that the root is everything and stores everything even different futures. An example would be every version of Shirou is recorded into the root already so there was always been an archer Emiya recorded as a counter guardian because the root is everything so It would be impossible for Rin to summon a different servant unless in a different timeline when she does not use the pendant. This still applies to how any Fate timeline is all cannon and have multiple infinite universes.
I would love to see them explore the future servant possibility more. The idea of a Servant from the future is interesting. Since it's already mentioned that for someone to become a heroic spirit in the modern era is harder than it was in the past. So to what circumstances in the future would allow the creation of a heroic spirit would be really cool. Especially skills and noble phantasm that connect to this future timeline in some way. Maybe not necessarily an archer with sci fi weapons or something but something interesting nonetheless.
Kind of is, kind of isn't. A heroic spirit is someone of note in the history of mankind. Famous authors, explorers and philosophers all count as heroic spirits even with the fact we explicitly know they didn't have special magic or superpowers. What they're referencing in that quote is that it's harder for people to take someone seriously for their actions anymore, so making a legend is trickier. But far from impossible. In the modern day war heroes, generals of note, and powerful authors and people at the head of social movements or strong ideals in modern culture could most likely make it to the position of a heroic spirit.
Off the top of my head, Oprah basically a shoe in, almost certainly Obama, possibly the current pope, absolutely Stephen hawking, and do recall Armstrong was confirmed a heroic spirit in CCC. They just can't be used because they're either alive or time needs to move on to the point where it'll be safe to use them in a story.
@@goldenbrigain7031 Dou you really think Obama will be remembered outside the USA in a few decades? A Heroic Spirit has ben shown needs both a thing that in fate is called "Mystery" and Fame thorough Time, that is tge reason that it becomes near imposible for things from the future to become HS, only Counter Guardians wich are given Mystery by Alaya could become HS, I dont remember Armstrong being confirmed but it sounds likely, anyway that's it.
@@goldenbrigain7031 Obama and Oprah are only famous on us on the rest of the world they are just tv celebrity and another mediocre president of United States
@@yokai1235 If how famous you are on a global scale were the criteria it would've been impossible for any heroic spirit to be recorded until some form of Globalization were established. Specifically, to be recorded into the throne of heroes requires that you possess a legend. Several of the figures in fate currently are a menagerie of legends that only spread or were famous in certain lands, got remembered, and that was pretty much it. Many of them aren't widely known in the greater cultural sphere of mankind at all right now and it wouldn't matter if they never were in our lifetimes due to the fact of the throne of heroes existing outside time.
This also isn't accounting for position. Irregardless of your own fame or even the power of your country if you are a part of a body deemed important by a select group of mankind you will be recorded. Obama, whatever he is, was a president of the united states. To skip over some context, that position alone counts basically as a heroic spirit itself and everyone who holds that title, very much irregardless of even how long they held it much less how well known they were for it, WILL be recorded as a heroic spirit.
Oprah likewise is a spiritual hallmark of american culture. Again, it isn't so much whether or not the greater world remembers her overmuch even, so much that she makes an impact on a viable selection of humanity, more points if that part of humanity has a sizable level of power in relation to the rest. The throne of heroes will even force someone on the throne so long as they commit a viable action like doing something mankind has never done before. Completely irrelevant of their own personal fame so long as the act itself is pertinent to human progression, identity, or so and so, the person who enacts it will be recorded.
To make a long story short, opinions and being well known to everyone (which by itself is a fucking shame of a goal) really tend to mean fuck all in relation to being recorded in the throne of heroes. So long as mankind basically thought you were worth remembering for whatever reason, you'll be recorded.
For instance, Shiki Ryougi from Kara no Kyokai actually can be recorded as a heroic spirit if in the future her acts and deeds are discovered and thought to hold weight. The exact same thing happened to an alternate reality version of Shirou Emiya, but it goes to show action is more important than fame overall.
@@goldenbrigain7031 all hero legends were wider known king Arthur mith was known in the entire Europe on medieval times japonese legends were known in China and closer country the mith of gilgamesh was known from Greece to west asia conqueres amd roman emperors are famous from Europe to Asia to North Africa there act changed human history the romancist and artists on the throne of heroes are people that revolutionized the literature and arts Leonardo da Vinci invented anatomy drawing Shakespeare revolutionized the modern theater and some of its works are one of the most important item on English literature iven for its time to be on the trone of heros you need to have something greater that people will remember for really long time
I agree 100% with you!!!! It also explains every route even Heaven's Feel. Shirou does eventually turn into Archer regardless a servant of justice/guardian. Archer is critical also in Heaven's Feel 1,2, and 3 .
Imagine if someday nasu decided to write a spin-off LN or Manga or anime about Archer and the "original" 5th grail war.
Illya route
Bruh not to knock Nasu, I mean, it's hard to imagine him fucking it up, but I feel like he'd go crazy retconning everything to the point that the story may come off as a jumbled mess like in Fate/Extra Last Encore. Maybe if Type Moon does a full remake of the VN, I would enjoy seeing it added after we roll credits on HF, that way Nasu has no choice but to be as concise as possible.
@@judotaku_7829 I agree
Nasu does have a lot of experience writing VN's and light novels, but the reason Nasu's Fate/Extra Last Encore script was so incredibly bloated and bad was because the ability to write stories directly for the anime medium is an entirely different skill in which Nasu didn't have the experience (and honestly) neither the brevity to do, so I think an archer prequel story would be great as long as Nasu doesn't with it directly for an anime
@@yurineri2227 Yes, but let's be real, Nasu has a bad habit of retconning incessantly. I learned that the hard way when I created the complete Nasuverse Timeline on Reddit.
@@judotaku_7829 yeah, that's also true lol
I mean, that's kind of the point of Archer's plan. He wants to create a paradox so bad Gaia/Alaya will just get rid of him rather than resolve it. Obviously it doesn't end up working that way.
Considering FGO is part of the universe's canon, the existence of the Lostbelt chapters, and by extension the "pruning theoretical phenomenon," implies that the Fate multiverse timeline is segmented. It's entirely possible that, as a Counter Guardian, Archer's existence is similar to that of Mushashi's in FGO; wherein her timeline has already been pruned by the world and because of that she wanders through the multiverse without really being anchored to them. This means that no matter what Archer does to even attempt returning to his own timeline, he cannot do so because it no longer exists.
Edit: Something you missed out on explaining is that in the Heaven's Feel route, Archer appears to have been aware of the Black Grail. This implies that the Black Grail likely had a part in the events of his timeline.
He may have encountered similar beings to Angra Mainyu throuhg his journeys, that could explain why he seemed to be aware.
How does Fate lore benefit in any way from the inclusion of FGO, a game clearly written to sell you microtransactions to summon cute girls? It's so far removed from Fate lore that it may as well be an AU with some of the same faces.
@@Antiformed By introducing alternate versions. Like Caster Gil and Lancer Artoria or new stories like the Camelot Babylonia (which actually got an anime adaptation) pseudo singularity era lostbelt era all written by Nasu. And just because it doesn't follow the general rule of what a holy grail war is does not mean its not canon. Fate/ Apocrypha doesn't follow the general rule of what a holy grail war is because they have 14 servants but that doesn't mean it's not cannon. More so it adds to cannon by introducing us to characters like Mordred.. Artoria's son.
By going by your logic every spin off of is an AU BUT THEY ARE ALL CANNON AU's so it does benefit.
@@Antiformed Well for starters *everything* in FGO is written by Nasu, even though a multitude of artists are employed to bring his ideas for certain characters to life. Fate existing as a multiverse from day one in FSN with the existence of Archer as a Heroic Spirit and his awareness that even if he were to kill Shirou he would not cease to be a Heroic Spirit or a Counter Guardian. Even if we ignore stuff like Waver's Case Files or Prisma Illya, there's also Fate/Extra, Fate/Apocrypha, Kara No Kyoukai, and Tsukihime, all of which existing within the same universe but unable to exist within the same timeline due to differences in how their histories don't line up. Prisma Illya itself plays with the idea of Fate existing in a multiverse when they explore Miyu's backstory.
Call it an AU all you like, but it's no more removed from Fate lore than Extra, Apocrypha, Case Files, Prisma, Requiem, Strange Fake, or any of the other extensions of the fate multiverse. Just because you dislike something doesn't mean it isn't canon.
Yeah, I just want Nasu to make another light novel that has a little fanservice. I never touch FGO because of the fanservice afterall
As someone who has read the VNs, I double checked the prologue from Archer's point of view back when he was Shirou, and have to disagree with your initial assertion that in Archer's original timeline he wasn't stabbed through the heart, and didn't acquire the pendant a manner similar to what we see in our Protagonist Shirou's timeline. We see in his flashback, his shirt is similarly blooded when he first summoned Saber. (Granted this could by them reusing the same panel, but I highly doubt that.) We notice Rin already forgets the pendant even in the present timeline, with Archer offering his own as hers. So, with this I speculate the encounter with Cu and Shirou being stabbed through the heart and saved by Rin happened, even in Archer's timeline. This leads to the question if so, how would Shirou have encountered Cu in such a manner without Rin having a Servant to fight, well, again this falls in speculation territory, but, Lancer Cu being an efficient follower of orders noticing Rin as a potential Master would have been enough for him to try to attack her. I can say that with confidence as we see him do the same thing to Shirou right before he summons Saber. So, it's rather easy to follow with that logic is Shirou gets entangled when he tries to save Rin, being he is Shirou and that's how he gets stabbed in the heart and saved by Rin later on, buying her time to escape. The rest of it can play out like you said and imagined, but, I'm certain that he was still stabbed by Cu and saved by Rin even in the timeline he became Archer.
Personally, I speculate that the Timeline Archer came from has something to do with the Fuyuki Grail War we hear mentioned of in the Mobile Game, Fate/Grand Order, but, that is too speculation on my part.
I tried to figure this out once and then just gave up cause it's so damn confusing.
Also, l heard that there were other routes planned for fate stay like a Medusa route, Caster route, Shinji route, Mash route and even a stand alone Sakura and lllya route (apparently heaven's feel was a combination of Sakura and lllya). So maybe archer emiya could be from those routes.
Lastly, l like to think that Archer emiya's timeline had a similar event to Kotomine trying to trick Saver into making a wish on the grail like the bad end where saber chooses the grail over Shirou.
Mash route? what?
Mash was originally a fsn character, there are some concepts around the net
I would love to see an extension of routes. Honestly they are pretty much unlimited. Just a different choice here or there that does not get Emiya-Kun killed by Truck-Kun and boom, new route. I would have liked to seen both Medusa and Medea routes. Once you play Ataraxia it is really hard not to love Rider.
@@mattroxursoul The closest one to Medea route i got is fanfiction called "Path of The King". It's so great that if there will ever be an official medea route, this'll be the one.
@@reinashbell5041 I have read it and enjoyed it. Thank you for the suggestion though. With the way that world works there is an infinite amount of story lines. Madea would be very cool in order to help teach Shirou stuff about magic.
2:34 "Time travel in Fate is a genuine mess that doesn't make any sense."
So regular old time travel then.
*Sees "Fate" in the title*
Kay, I'll be back. Thanks Boofire.
@@BOOFIRE191 it's on my watch list... Just need to finish Garden of Sinners first. Still love the content! Keep up the good work.
@BOOFIRE191 Also important details from other fate works the throne of heroes is outside time as such why it has heroes from the future, also time is indeed a multiverse with multiple timelines inside the different universes however from fate extella there is a confirmation that in universe some timelines are quantom time locked
@@BOOFIRE191 Please do Tsukihime
@@federicofilippini6780 Pruning of the tree. Time isn't a river or an ocean, it's a fooking tree!
Whew, going down that rabbit-hole, eh? Good luck. I would suggest that, if you want to learn more about the World and how this verse handles its "timeline", definitely go through the EXTRA games and side materials (Extra, Extra CCC, Extella, Extella Link, Fox Tail, etc.). While a tad messy, Extella has the one of the most straightforward presentations for how any of it works. Grand Order does, too, but then that would suggest diving into FGO and that's a special kind of hole I won't take responsibility for lol...
Of course, getting through the Stay Night stuff first, such as Hollow Ataraxia
is also a viable option.
As for other visual novels that may or may not interest you, Baldr Sky is a (recent for English audiences) fascinating pick to look at. It's sci-fi, it's mechs and tackles some common topics of the genre in its own unique fashion. Thought-invoking, yet quite divisive. I quite enjoyed my time with it.
Bldr sky is great game for him
Dont do FGO. Its a shithole and Im falling right into it.
Well FGO supports that time cannot be changed. Like when the player interacts with Nero,she has a vague feeling about knowing as.
So that means all original 7 singularities are cannon to human history, but are forgotten because the player fixes them.
Slesh_Master If I recall in the seventh singularity, Gil actually corrects that line of thinking and says that time did indeed change, people still don’t remember it at all of course after it’s all done but the timeline itself does some minor fixes to at least make it something still resembling the actual past.
No? I could have sworn that the singularities were just that "singularities". They are essentially dead ends that if not corrected they could destroy the proper "human" timeline. They are time locked in frozen stasis. They can't progress they can't go back.
@@Samm815 It sounds like you're mixing Singularities and the Lostbelts. Singularities in FGO are like holes opening up in the timeline itself. It's something that doesn't happen in recorded history, thus necessitating the reparation by going back in time.
Lostbelts are the dead ends of humanity, the parallel worlds where human reached a point of stagnation and were thus pruned by the World. They were brought back via the Fantasy Trees from the Alien God and compete with one another to overtake the now bleached world and the Panhuman History, reverting the world back to the Age of Gods.
That’s absolutely incorrect. The Singularities and all of FGO belongs to a separate timeline that has many of its own rules. The singularities don’t exist in other timelines as the last host of the demon god pillar needed to complete the plan offs himself after he learns what he’s to become.
@@Miasma_ Singularities do exist in other timelines, it's just the Counter Force erases them like they're supposed to. The reason they can't do that in FGO is because of Goetia and the Temple of Time.
Also no, FGO follows Fate/ rules way more than other works like Prisma, Requiem, or Strange Fake. It's just simply a more modern version being set in 2015 and onward, with technology enhanced magecraft. It is still very much a Fate/ world, unlike Strange Fake which borders the line between Tsukihime rules and Fate/ rules, or Prisma that follows entirely different rules.
I think it’s sweet how in every timeline, even the ones we don’t see, Rin falls in love with Shirou. Very nice romance.
Also you didn’t mention it but I’ve always believed that the OG timeline had some elements of Heaven’s Feel as well. Like the Mind of Steel band end seems to indirectly reference this, or at the very least exists as a showcase of the many roads Shirou could take to reach a similar existence as Archer.
I like to imagine that Archer met a version of Emiya Shirou that became a heroic spirit that did not take Alaya's contract
The other angle for Rin’s summoning is that she could’ve summoned Ajax/Aias as it would’ve been the only way for Shirou to learn Rho Aias directly, something that couldve been used against Gilgamesh during a situation where Rin would try to save Shirou and Saber. Rho Aias is also a very taxing a painful noble phantasm to project within and outside of Unlimited Blade Works and could’ve contributed to Shirou’s burning that whitened his hair and cooked his skin from over use.
I don’t agree with the Kotomine handing Gilgamesh over to Rin theory because Saber and Gil’s conclusion in the 4th war would put them in an uncomfortable shaky alliance in which Saber would always be hostile against Gilgamesh, one of the two people that prevented her from reaching the grail (the other being Kiritsugu). I think if this theory did go the way you suggest, Cu might have been the one handed over mainly due to the subjective evidence laid by Nasu’s writing where Rin admires Cu or Cu wishing he had a master like Rin in future adaptations of FSN, and “Not!Rin” in Extra having Cu as her servant. Not to mention that Cu and Emiya have this love-hate rivalry from the very start of FSN and you can almost see Emiya snark creep up in UBW Shirou when he tells Cu to stop acting funny around his woman, even catching Cu off guard before playfully yet respectfully yielding to him and teasing Rin. I would not doubt that Cu would’ve cause some jealousy in original Shirou if he had to sit and watch Cu get giddy with Rin while he gets nowhere with Saber and translates into the Emiya-Cu relationship.
I did enjoy the analysis, I wish Nasu would stop hand waving away the original time.
The whitening of his Hair and Body is already been explained due to him literally using his body as Steel to create many weapons in his UBW. Like that from Miyuverse Shirou whose bangs were whitening due to him using UBW even after completing the war.
The original Shirou was definitely stabbed by Lancer and saved by Rin because he has her pendant as a Servant. That means she definitely had a Servant and battled against Lancer in the original timeline. I think it was also mentioned by Archer that the one moment he always remembered was that of Saber standing in the moonlight after she saved him. It still isn’t clear just who Rin’s Servant was in this timeline though.
The theory of segmented time lines/parallel worlds was confirmed in Nasuverse, but I have some points I would like to share:
1) Time travel is the second of the five remaining Magics/Sorceries/True Magics "Zelretch/Kaleidoscope", and only one DAA mastered it and no one else in all of Nasuverse
2) Rin's pendant is something like a proto-version of her 'miniature of a miniature of the 'Jewled Sword Kaleidoscope'
3) She calls on the name of Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg when summoning Archer, so she might be always calling him from the convergence of all timelines in the Root
4) Since the Root itself is a paradox/impossibility it creates the Counter Guardian to take care of abnormalities
In conclusion EMIYA the Archer always exists, he has a partial 'Time Exemption Clause' because of his deal with the Root there is no 1st/original one. And in my opinion all of his variants start when Cu stabs him.
The way I see it time travel in Fate is multifaceted. Yes, it can loop back in on itself, but it can also branch off into multiple timelines. This is why I believe EMIYA was still in the original timeline as a heroic servant and why he can still appear in other routes such as UBW.
I just want to take this moment to point out that the purpose of knowing what the rules of a Holy Grail War are in F/SN is so that we, the audience, can know what rules are currently being broken by the participants.
I want this to be true because it's interesting, but it's possible (and unfortunately more likely) that Emiya is Rin's servant in both timelines.
Nasu has stated in an interview that Archers' original timeline was mostly like the Fate route but that "something was different," a lot of people including you yourself seem to have interpreted this as a different Archer having been summoned, but we could far more easily interpret it as the romantic aspect of Shirou and Saber's relationship having been missing. It's the most straight-forward way to explain why Shirou, "understood Saber but couldn't save her heart." and would definitely constitute something being different. He treated her as a person and not a tool, but didn't get romantically involved like in Fate.
We know for a fact that Archer had an identical wound from Lancer to F/SN Shirou when he summoned Saber in his own timeline because the image of Sabers' summoning in the prologue isn't actually from the point of view of our Shirou, it's a memory of Archer's. (Nasu is apparently baffled that people didn't get that and it's made a bit clearer when Archer is killed by Saber in Hollow Ataraxia. He's made at least one blog post to clear it up that I know of.) While it'd be fun to speculate that Rin showed up with a totally different servant and got into another similar fight with Lancer, it's just too messy. If the situation is totally different a lot of "what-if's" have to be imagined to explain how Shirou wound up in the exact same scenario with the exact same wound with a completely different set of circumstances. A much easier answer is right there. It was always a version of Archer, and it's even possible with the VN's own logic.
The throne of heroes and the way time works in Fate is a bit on the wonky side, but we do know from Archer himself and subsequent instalments and statements that the throne exists completely outside of time. As long as there exists a timeline in which Shirou becomes Archer then a version of Archer can always be summoned regardless of paradoxes, which includes Archer Emiya's own timeline. It's more than possible that a version of Emiya could have been summoned by Rin in Archer's original timeline, and it's even more likely when you consider that the reason Archer is summoned in F/SN is because he had Rins' pendant on him, the same pendant he got when she healed the wound he sustained from Lancer, exactly like our version of Shirou.
Then there's the different branches of the story. In every route the story only begins to branch out at the moment Shirou summons Saber, this is also the moment we see Archer remember in the prologue and I don't think that was an accident. If we think of Archer's route before F/SN as being a "fourth route" that we don't get to play through then it makes logical sense to have circumstances be exactly the same up until that diverging point. It's where the stage is set for Shirou to start making a real difference in the story and Nasu went to lengths to make sure we knew that, that moment was identical for both Shirou and Archer. There was no need to include Archers' memory of the summoning in the prologue at all and there was definitely no need to have it be in exactly the same circumstances with Archer Shirou on the floor bleeding from his heart. That was a conscious choice, and it's likely a hint to us as the player that Archer Emiya's story branched there too.
2:17
Regular Heroic Spirits are also used across time by the Counter Force and we can clearly see that in FGO where Heroic Spirits are summoned to ages way before their own birth.We also see them summoned by mages as regular Servants.
3:48
Because the Throne of Heroes that stores the info of heroic Spirits is removed from the time axis so it doesnt matter if Archer is "created" at all.There are no paradoxes.
4:15
There is a multiverse. FSN on its own with its 3 routes and over 40 ending proves that this is a multiverse.
And really not sure how Archer' being summoned across time in any way proves anything.
5:10
Again. Archer is removed from the time axis.There is no issue with him being summoned in the timeline where Shirou becomes Archer. The Throne is removed from the time axis so that makes paradoxes impossible. Saber says it herself.Archer killing any Shirou wont do a damn thing since he, Archer, already exists as a Counter guardian.
5:47
No?Archer's advice helps Shirou use his projection.It had nothing to do with saving Saber.They had no real interactions besides him giving him projection advice.And even that was a in a cryptic way.
8:17
So you throw the entire premise of Archer getting the pendant after Rin saved him.
9:16
You really need to realize that the Throne simply doesnt care about TIME. Your whole idea about the flow of time is weird anyway.
Rin's summoning happens before saving Shirou, before fighting in the war, before Shirou becomes Archer etc. So based on the timeline even in Fate,UBW and HF, there CANT be an EMIYA with the pendant in the Throne since Shirou didnt go through any of the events that would make him into a CG.
Why are you thinking of this as a time loop?All of these timelines happen in parallel.If you are correct then Archer arrives at the Throne ONLY after Shirou wins, at least, the 5th war.I wont say that he has to make the contract and then die.By this logic EMIYA CANT be summoned in any FSN route before the end of the war since he doesnt exist yet.
9:40
Except she was already a Master and even without a catalyst you can get a Servant. Shirou must absolutely get stabbed in the heart in order for Rin to save him and him to pick up the pendant from the floor.
12:26
Except that Archer didnt even remember Rin until she told him her name. Kinda weird to forget your lover's face and whole character, especially someone Rin.
"Yes. That is the pendant you held on to throughout your life after you were saved. It is the one and only memento of Tohsaka Rin's father."
EMIYA talking about both him and Shirou.
The rest of the speculation is based on the assumption that Rin doesnt summon EMIYA or any other Archer Servant which simply is false.
15:38
Gil got a human body and no longer counts as Servant of a HGW(still is a Servant tho).If he did then Rin would never summon an Archer.
16:00
Archer only told him to beat him.Shirou and co came to the conclusion that UBW is their only trump card.And even then it only works if several other factors are also present.
Shirou wouldnt even be able to deploy UBW if not for Archer saving him with Rho Aias.
And without Archer around, in your supposed original timeline, Shirou CANT learn about UBW. Even Archer himself got UBW AFTER his death.
17:20
The very first scene of the Visual Novel is Archer's memory of being saved by Saber when Cu attacked him at the shed.
18:00 ~ 18:40
This doesnt make any sense whatsoever .
19:30
Except that he isnt.
19:48
Except that Shirou can make bad choices even without Gil around. Are we forgetting how Saber kills Shirou for the grail in the Fate route?
20:09
Nope.Archer got his UBW after death as I stated above.
20:58
Then why didnt Shirou get UBW in Fate route? They have no idea about UBW and Archer isnt around to explain.
21:22
Maybe because they are essentially the same thing? Both summon weapons and throw them at their enemy. It doesnt take 1000 IQ to realize that they cancel each other out.It Archer never explained anything.Rin and Shirou understood that UBW is the natural enemy of GoB.
so who was archer lover back then? saber? rin?
@@naivarobin9540 I'd assume it would have been Saber since Archer's timeline is the Fate Good Ending that Nasu/Takeuchi didn't use. I could see it being Rin though and Archer's amnesia is just him blatantly lying.
@@marvel672 Takeuchi did call it "Good Ending" but it was everything except that.
Even if they did have sex like they did in FSN, she was gone after they won the war so she cant be EMIYA's lover.
As for his memories, it is half truth.He doesnt have amnesia but he did forget stuff due to the passing of time. He realizes who Rin is only after she tells him her name. I can believe him forgetting his highschool crush but an actual lover?Seems unlikely.
Technically... Shirou getting stabbed in the heart by Gae Bolg and Rin saving him thereby leaving the Red Pendant to Shirou is a "Quantum Time-lock"...
@@naivarobin9540 Some Lore Book implies that EMIYA has intense feelings for Ilyasviel...
I believe this is all a biproduct of the main core events of the 4th Holy grail war, such as (spoilers)
Kotomine Kirei finding his purpose in the war, leading him to murder Tohsaka Tokiomi, Rin's father, as well as being persuaded by Gilgamesh with the idea of entertainment;
Rin being a heir to the Tohsaka family, thus being entrusted with the pendadt and the Azoth dagger by her two Mentors;
Shirou being saved by Emiya Kiritsugu from the fire, someone who claims to have given up on being a hero of justice only for Shirou to be entrusted with that same wish on Kiritsugu's dying moments.
Well without all that complicated shit, what I got from the anime was the reason Emiya was summoned was because he still had the pendant and he had it because he was saved by it as shiro. I think shiro would have still been attacked and saved by the pendant despite archer not being there. Also I think Archer always loved Rin because Archers outfit looks like it was made from Rins shirt.
"Hmm, everything seems to make sense so f-"
"Koto-mean"
_"Now listen here you little shi-"_
No, the archer lancer fight has to happen, Emiya has to die, Rin has to revive him, Shiro needs to be chased bloody into his shed, and unlimited blade works doesn't come into being until much later in the original Emiya's life so it can't be a factor in the original grail war.
Shiro would straight up die in a first fight with Berserker, there are several times when he does die from berserker because he doesn't have a servant, Gil would legit finish him off for shits and giggles without Saber, and without the magic from Rin's pendant sabers sheath would not have the power to revive Shiro on its own.
Also Saber knows Gil, the two of them cannot share the same battle field, she can convince herself he doesn't remember, but I don't think Gil would be able to play along, hell he'd kill Shiro just to have Rin keep her close.
Well I don't know that this fight has to happen. Lancer just needs to stab Emiya. That is the Fate. Another fight could have made this happen. I actually agree with you that Epic spirit Emiya was there though. Cause of Archer seeking a paradox. If Archer was not originally there, then that Paradox would be impossible
Archer still loves Saber according to HA (So he would not go for Rin probably). You can summon a servant even without a catalyst ( So obviously Rin could do it to)
@@mattroxursoul Yeah, I didn't mean it has to be Emiya Archer in that fight, only that the fight has to happen there, and since saber and archer were the only classes left open, and we know Shiro was always paired with saber, it just seemed a given that she'd have an archer.
Technically lancer could've fought rider, and Rin could've been trying to spy on the fight when Shiro got caught, but yeah it has to be lancer who stabs him because he's the only one who would just leave him there initially and then hunt him down afterwards. Illya would have taken him, rider and caster would've ignored him after the fact, and assassin's not applicable.
I think odds are strong it was Archer Emiya though. You are right about explaining Lancer being the only one who could make those events happen. It has to be Rin using her jewel to heal Shirou. Would be curious if Nasu would ever go into that if asked. Who knows maybe after Tsukihime 2029 we will get Fate 2052
So Gilgamesh creates the one man in the who can beat him one on one? That's some well deserved irony.
18:15 ok ok I love berserk as much as the next guy but everyone has to at least agree that gil+full powersaber vs berserker is plain fucked
Personally my hypotesis was that archer EMIYA simply was killed by saber somehow when they first met, or was killed by someone else before he could get closer to shirou
When you want king Arthur but get your future husband as a SIRVENT.
When want gold but get diamond
Too much time traveling theory. The truth is much more simple, Nasuverse is a multi-universe, so It's doesn't actually matter if Archer kills Shirou or not, he can't change what happened in his original universe. He's not the same Emiya Shirou, he's another person from a different universe. He was trying to kill Shirou only because it was his last hope to find realese from Alaya's serving.
Kiara Sessyoin, BB, and the Sakura Five are technically examples of servants from the future, however they throw in even more complications because Kiara can only be used as an Alter Ego, and BB and co. are artificial intelligences that are also mostly Alter Egos (BB is a Mooncancer) meaning that there are even more convoluted circumstances behind them.
On a related but more stable note, there is an alter version of counter guardian Emiya, Emiya Alter, who exists because of Kiara Sessyoin destroying the last vestiges of his humanity.
In regards to the timelines, there is simultaneously a multiverse and a way to change one's own timeline as seen in Fate/Grand Order and Fate/Extella. FGO presents that there is a potential for unlimited timelines, however all the ones that have an obvious outcome are removed -compared to pruning a tree- so that the uncertain timelines may continue to develop.
Fate/Extella brings up the concept of time locks, which are related to the preservation of certain timelines. These are points within a timeline that become hard locked- there is absolutely no way to change the results of events that are locked in, even if you tried to change the past before them (I believe that it's actually impossible to travel back to these points anyway, but I didn't actually play Extella). It remains possible to change events that happen after a time lock, but not the locked events themselves.
Of course, with the number of rules and exceptions that exist, even these rules may be completely meaningless for all I know.
So went through first few comments bringing up fgo and yes it is canon that there are alternate timelines/world in fate. No one has brought up that it explains all this in fate extra, extella and extella links. Play these games, extra is about to get a rerelease update and it looks amazing. The whole series is fun to play.
Okay, this thing has been sitting in my watch-later list for almost a year while I waited to finish all three routes of Stay Night.
In unlimited blade works it details that archers reality marble is a reward his reward for death
9:31 in fate zero ryuonuske (caster's master) didn't had a catalyst. The novel explains that if the master doesn't have one, the servant would be one with similar traits and personality as the master.
One theory that I have that could explain why archer knew how to defeat gilgamesh is that mabey in a reality that gilgamesh destroyed the world like he planed to archer was sent back as a counter guardian to stop gilgamesh so mabey he knew his reality marble would work because he beat gilgamesh himself with it in another reality
"Forming a bond" i think you mean swallowing [REDACTED]
Didn't Rin had feelings for Shiro? When she transferred her mage's seal he saw her deepest memories and one of them was staring at Shiro. That's why Emiya kept the pendant it belonged to Rin. This story is a very violent love story.
Eh... You can't really apply the concept of time on Archer as he is outside the grasp of time and space, simply put it's as if telling someone they can see just because they have eyes, when in actuality someone is blind. Archer is indeed has eyes and is effected by time and space when summoned, but time will never effect his main body in the ToH the same way no information from the eye would reach the brain when one is blind. Though of course I'm not talking things literally, Archer isn't blind, although he could probably still see while being blind since his Clairvoyance skill is really vague on how it actually works.
I want you to know that you're a true man of culture for using Tyranny music in the video. I'm subscribing.
Interesting thought. I like your reimagining of this OG timeline.
Though it would be possible (or likely) that Shirou would use the pendant to summon UBW, I think at first the pendant returns to Rin. Later the two develop a relationship, which sooner or later breaks apart not because of a fight, but because of Shirou's ideals which drive him to a place Rin can not follow him to. As Rin reluctantly let's him go (which she would surly regret for the rest of her live) she gives him a parting gift, a memento to their relationship and what they have been through. Now if said gift was the pendant, it would make a lot of sense if he would carry it with him until his eventual demise and so also onto his seat among the servants.
I love this explanation! i am all for this.
this is wrong on so many level.
For a start, they is no time travel, because when shirou became a gardian, his new "Home" Is the "Throne Of Hero", a place outside of time, and once on the throne, you are always on the throne, from the beginning of the universe to end, that is why archer know that killing shirou in other route is pointless, even if he still try.
The experience that he gather and is summoning on the holy grail is just a clone, a temporary body from who he will gather experience and knowledge.
Second, the contract that shirou made was with Alaya, the, to simplify, spirit of Humanity, and not a otherwordy being.
Third, the use of the catalyst for rin was intended from the start, while a specific catalyst can summon a particular hero, they is no garanty, no catalyst will summon a hero that a best suited for you, probably with similar goal, or mentality.
She never "fail" the summon, she summon the perfect hero, compatible with her on a personal level, with a catalyst to boost the summoning.
The rest is rather a rather good interpretation of the event as you lay them.
Good vidéo.
To be fair, time travel in almost any fiction is a genuine mess
I think it's actually as simple as the Grail granted Shiro's heart's true desire to save everyone he cared about and feel worthy of his life being spared. Shiro called it being a hero, and couldn't envision a way to do it, so it took him for a fucking ride. All that "Fate" energy going along until he COULD imagine a way to do what he wanted, and changing as he realized what he ACTUALLY wanted. I'm biased coming from Fate/Zero, but there are parallels in the Emiya stories for a reason. One made the wish, and one didn't, one was willing to pay the price of sacrificing their existence for the world they wanted, and the other wasn't.
Rin 100% could have still summoned Shiro Archer and likely did, just not a Counter-Guardian Archer.
Well as fun as that dive was, it could be considered the major catalyst towards the original fate at the same time creating a parallel trinity of timelines that could be explored. One of which with Rin going to the church, Kotomine could possibly use her as a pseudo frail from the onset. Or Rin doesn't go the church, to which he send Cu, and after Cu notices her compatibility to be a master, somehow tries to break his contract with Kotomine, which can lead to another Alliance with Iliya or Madea, on account of her Noble Phantasm severing contracts. In fact the more you look at it, the more the events change based on all the options available.
But if we are to go by the rule of time being segmented in the Nasuverse, the best example to use to show the motion of time and that an anchor point has to exist would be Arturia and the Sword of Selection, Caliburn. If summoned, She could easily be drawn into her own past so long as it isn't at the time of her ascent to the throne, meaning that she could be summoned to even the Age of Gods with all her memories intact, but not to the point of her becoming a hero. This also holds true of Archer Emiya, his point of origin is not the actual 5th Grail War, but a point after where he made a contract with the counter force. He can never go to that point ever, no matter how close in time to that moment he is, at the same time, he could not change that specific moment either as it would not change his ultimate outcome of being a counter guardian.
What if Kotor 3 happened according to plan to Bioware and Vitiate's Sith Empire that we got in Swtor was instead replaced with the orginally plan secretive Sith Lords that we had hints to in Kotor 1 & 2? What could of happened in Kotor 3 and how vastly different would of these True Sith be compared to Vitiate's Sith Empire?
There's a difference?
I'm interested to see your videos about other Fate Series entries, like Fate/Zero, F/Hollow Ataraxia, etc.
Archer is the only heroic spirit from the future because the catalysts required don't exist yet except fro Rin's pendant
Wait, you do know that the multiverse is an actual thing in the nasuverse right? The moon cell can't exist in timelines where Brunstud exists, fate/requiem is specifically cited as a different "world" from fate grand order, and fate grand order's timeline only had 3 Grail wars because everything happened completely differently there (hence why marsibury participated in the first place; in worlds where doctor heartless didn't confirm the grail could accomplish what he needed, he never attends and abandons Olga). Also there are "fate" worlds and "Tsukihime" worlds differing depending on the relative power of either Alaya or Gaia. Also there can't exist two wielders of the mystic eyes of death perception in one world but Tohno Shiki and shiki Ryougi can exist if one is teleported to the others world/timeline...Also the entire basis of the second magic is multiverse theory proven right. Hell the kaleidoscope crystal sword Rin uses in heaven's feel specifically only works because it explicitly drains magical energy from infinite parallel universes.
Also, if Rin didn't use a catalyst that wouldn't mean a servant wouldn't come. The ritual summons the servant most compatible with the summoner using them as the catalyst in the event that they don't have one prepared. That's how Ryuunosuke Uryuu summons Caster in the fourth holy grail war.
@@BOOFIRE191 eh, just spitting it out there. More importantly, how do you think one would summon a true servant (as opposed to a regular servant or a grand servant as the original heroic spirit from the throne) from what I understand you'd need massive fucking amounts of magical energy and probably as many ritualistic materials and occurrences as you could get your hands on. Beyond that, how do daemons use magic?
@@goldenbrigain7031 Summoning the proper Heroic Spirit by a human magus is impossible. Even the Grail itself can't handle a Heroic Spirit, which is why they have to limit them to the class containers. Only the World would be able to summon a genuine Heroic Spirit
@@BOOFIRE191 it is very VERY unlikely that a mage from the three main families would fail to summon a servant, her summoning was NOT a failure, it was just not "optimal" since she fucked up due to the clocks being early bullshit and wasn't at her maximum potential.
The other part I find it hard to agree upon is the pendant, Archer knew EXACTLY when rin uses & loses her pendant at the school skirmish, thats why he returned it to her exactly after that event, claiming she had left it there (which she did but this is a pendant from archer's timeline). If things happened differently and he acquired it in some other fashion/time he wouldn't have returned it to her when he did.
Timeline in Nasuverse is Branched. Both actions can happen forming different timelines. One where Archer Killed Shirou and one Where he didn't. So, even if he killed Shirou, it wont affect his past one tiny bit. Remember, in most timelines when Archer is summoned he cannot remember his past for some time. This I dont think it is him lying, but rather Alaya messing with his mind.
Also the original timeline could be something like 'Predestination'. A Loop that was always meant to happen. Either because of Alaya, Gaia or Akasha.
After all Time travel isn't impossible in that multiverse. Both Zelretch and Aoko are capable of it.
While I most definitely agree with a vast majority of what is stated in this video, from Time being segmented (Multiverse is nothing new in Type-Moon) to Rin failing to summon a servant thus has Gilgamesh being her servant and even having it that she teams up with Shirou because she's very suspicious of Gil and Kirei. All of that makes sense and I can quite easily see working.
*But* there is one thing that I have to disagree with, Shirou unleashing UBW and like in said route defeat Gilgamesh. We know that normally it would take Shirou several years- possibly decades before he could learn to use his magecraft and reality marble to a proficient level. The only reason in the UBW route that Shirou was able to do that so young was because he absorbed Archer's abilities/skill
I think it would make much more sense that like in the actual fate Route Shirou gives Saber Avalon which allows her to defeat Gil. Meanwhile he defeats Kirie- most likely with the help of Rin. Sounds much more believable in my humble opinion
It's still entirely possible for him to use it in this one instance in an urgent need. Similar to how Shirou yanked out his projections against Kuzuki in UBW to protect Rin, even though they were far from being decent projections, they still did their job in that instance. So it can still work that Shirou managed to get UBW up for that one instance to fight Gilgamesh, and then after that, have to train his Circuits to be able to utilize it again at a higher level.
I can see what you mean though when you say that it wouldn't work as well though. I admit this can be a bit of a faulty justification
The way that timelines work in the Fate series/Nasuverse as a whole is that there are fixed points/events in the timeline that can not be changed. Even with time travel or with a summon into the past like Archer in this case, the particular event of Shiro giving himself to the Counter Force is one of those fixed points that can not be changed, Archer was fated to fail in erasing himself regardless of who else died.
Plot Twist:
Its Illya route
What are you doing step bro
I like the concept and theories. Seems very plausible and reasonable.
The Second Magic, Kaleidoscope, achieved by Zelrech Kischur Scheinorg allows the FATE multiverse to encompass the Operation of Parallel Worlds.
By this we can understand NASU used a bastardized version of String Theory to be able to pull out all the alternate versions of all our favorite characters, including Archer Emiya, all the Arturias and basically FGO in general for all the fun and shenanigans in his stories/games.
For example how the FATE universe is a parallel existance to the Tsukihime universe, also a parallel existance to Apocrypha, to FATE/EXTRA and still even parallel to FGO (which in itself is another can of worms in exploring mutiple "close" parallel existences that affect each other).
Man I just.....even the BACKSTORY BACKSTORY premise would've been so interesting to see. Like, Rin having to be Gil's Master? phenominal. I need that content.
Ehhh quite a quite few holes, one being how drastically it actually does divert from the fate route and how not similar it is.
But also shirou probably never dated rin, or if he did it would be short term. At the end of ubw it says "if a girl like her stays with emiya shirou, the hero emiya should not be born, his words contain such hope", pretty much implying that she didnt stay with him, so the whole "he had a caring lover" from extra is probably not talking about rin.
The archer from fate extra is a different archer with similar life experiences but made a contract with the moon cell and became a nameless spirit and is much less cynical or filled with regrets than normal archer. So not everything that happened in his life would be guarunteed for stay night archer. Hell it might even be possible rin summoned moon cell emiya if that is possible (not knowledgeable on the moon tho) who wouldnt have as much regrets or feel as much need to advise shirou.
Isnt it also pretty heavily implied archer had to learn unlimited blade works the hard way as opposed to getting it early? He never had archer to help him with the foundations and would take ten years to develop. Dont forget as well that archer doesnt have his past memories of the fuyuki war and would only remember small details like the vision of saber being summoned, and would have no recollection of fighting gilgamesh if he did. He probably saw the babylon attacks from gilgamesh and thought "yeah my marbles can counter dis shit".
Currently at 11:40.
I know you're focusing at the Fate/Stay Night, but in the Fate/Zero, at the 4th Holy Grail War, Emiya Archer is also Present. Certain Event's could've changed through this alone in the Fate/Stay Night, but since we're focusing on the Stay Night part, then I'll state this.
Due to Tosaka Rin being unable to summon a Servant, she still went to the School and found the same runes and such that she removed and took her time off the School, leading to her meeting up with Emiya Shirou, who informed her that he's only there to fix some broken stuff, Clean the Dojo and that he forgot his bag, but she noticed that Shirou has no Tools that sometimes associates of fixing something and decided to go with him to his home.
At the home, after a few discreet way to check if Shirou is a Magus, she confronted him then and there, leading to Shirou to show her his Workshop, which lead to him suddenly summoning Artoria Pendragon without his choice to the shock of the 2 Magus.
Through this is alone, Rin probably trick or convince Shirou to give up the Command Seal to her, and made her Artoria's Master instead, but on a Deal that Shirou would help in this War.
Rin did fall for Shirou, yet so many bad things occur at this point.
Death of Matou Sakura, Artoria Loosing to Heracles, and so on.
Shirou took those lost and the calamity that occured next that lead to him becoming Emiya Archer and the only supporter and lover he has is Rin, but in the end, she died and the only thing that he has of her is the Pendant.
Alot more changed if we add what could've occured if Emiya Archer isn't present at Fate/Zero that could've changed so many things in Fate/Stay Night as well, and we'll never know unless someone did a video about it.
Well yeah there is a multiverse, thats how the second magic zelrech and in a timeline rin controls
Your thoughts on how time is segmented are absolutely spot on per Fate canon. Within Fate is a phenomenon known as the Kaleidoscope, which is hit upon in the Heavens Feel route, where diverging timelines create parallel worlds.
My feeling is that there is an Archer summoned, and fills a role that Gil did in the original Fate route for a period, namely the killing of Medea. His appearance would tip off Rin as to the irregularities around Kotomine, and set up the final confrontation with Gilgamesh.
And who would this Archer and their master be? My best guess is Luvia (arrived after Bazett didn't report in) who summoned Atalante (we know Luvia has a catalyst tied to several Greek heroes due to Fate/Revive). Atalante would target Medea to the exclusion of all others, but would herself be an easy takedown for Gilgamesh.
Sitting on it today, a further thought crossed my mind: namely Kanshou and Bakuya, Archers swords. These are real world swords, used by the assassin Zhuan Zhu to kill the usurper Emperor Liao. In every timeline, Shirou encounters the swords by meeting Archer, but where did Archer get them?
What if this other Archer is the source? Zhuan Zhu was a general in the Wu army (alongside Sun Tzu) so would be skilled in all combat arts, including archery. But those swords would be an ideal catalyst for him.
-The summoning probably wouldn't outright fail. I believe you are correct in assuming archer wasn't summoned in the original timeline, however archer seemed to already have an understanding of the event in which Shirou was stabbed.
-It seems heavily implied that Saber didn't just spawn in that moment for no reason. She answered his call when he was in the verge of being killed by Lancer, making it so the summoning might not even have happened without that event.
-Archer lived for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, and regardless of the timeline he was at least somewhat aware of Gilgamesh, even if we ignore the fact that heroic spirits do generally have some knowledge of each other's strengths and weaknesses once they learn their true names. It's not exactly far fetched to say archer just came up with the idea that his reality marble was the literal perfect counter to the gate of Babylon during the millenia he had to think about and perfect it.
-Shirou using his reality marble to defeat Gil in the original timeline is missing a critical factor: Shirou didn't just learn how to use the reality marble from archer, he imported his sword skills and all the swords stored within the reality marble from archer as well. Put another way, the original Shirou's reality marble with his skill at the time of the fifth holy grail war definitely wouldn't have been able to match up with Gilgamesh at all. Shirou would've been skewered before he ever got a hang of it.
Good theory but even if the pendant wasn’t connected to anyone it was use more as a energy source rather than catalyst, the summoning ritual would still work on account that a servant close to her personality would be summoned due to a lack of catalyst to summon a specific servant.
Very interesting. Though a few points and questions not touched on in this video. First the time line is most likely segmented to account for, Heaven's Feel, Prisma, Apochripha, and Grand Order at the bare minimum. As all these different Fate routes tie back into Fuyuki's Holy Grail War at some point it is safe to say we have diverging timelines creating a multiverse. We can add in Extra/Extallia as well to these counts because of Archer Emyia being a servent their as well, to where we have 3 versions of Emyia as an Archer Class servent with The base form "Nameless" we see from Stay Night, Oath Under Snow, Prisma, and Extra/Extallia. We have Archer Alter his more corrupted aspect that embraced the "necessary" evil of his father, Seen in at least Grand Order, and then we have a third more "pure" form though I can't cite sources other then the 3 different versions of his Noble Phantasm's spell that create the UBW we are familar with a UBW of a more pure and hopeful nature, and Unlimited Lost Works that turns UBW into a devastating explosive like projectile fired by Alter.
Dude kudos I've been thinking about what could've happened in the og TL for years now and I've got to say I really feel like you hit a lot of the critical points that would've made everything possible and although some people are going to try to poke some holes in this it felt rather solid. Also isn't the fate universe already confirmed to be multiversal at this point further confirming your analysis? Anyway was great to listen to and easy to understand keep up the good work my guy
Yo 👋😌
The existence of the Jewled Sword itself confirmed multi-verse even in F/SN.
Problem with the theory is Rin would still summon a Servant even if it wasn’t Archer, Gilgamesh is never apart of the 5th HGW & while the grail breaks it’s own rules, it’s highly unlikely, since the grail could easily drag a straggler into the HGW like F/Z.
Im a 100 percent sure that she would have gotten the spear hero seeing they literally felt a connection between each other
Rin ended up being paired with Cu in the Extraverse so that's a possibility. However, Bazette had a catalyst and already summoned Lancer... Who Kirei stole.
I wish the Type/Moon Multiverse was consistent the problem I think is more that like many time travel stories it's written as though time is both fluid and segmented because of plot but those are logically incompatible. Archer's story implies that time is fluid and the way the rest of the multiverse is written implies there is a "fate" that everyone has but it there are also clear branches. The best I could put it as is that it seems like the Type/Moon Multiverse has branches that are all already written out and any point in time in any branches is just moving about it.
Edit: And let me say your theory is both logically and internally consistent, Nasu's is just internally consistent, that's the issue. You don't really need to worry about where Shiro's guilt came from either, he has survivors guilt and he could feel guilty about both Saber and Rin and literally everyone because of the lack of character growth without him ever being responsible for anything, that's kind of just how it works from my understanding.
Great analysis, I agree with most points but there's one that I disagree on one point.
@13:00 I mean... it's as speculative as any other theory, but I would agree that Rin still investigates the Boundary Field at the school since she would be absolutely aware of it. But then I'd disagree with your earlier point and say that Shirou would still get stabbed by Cú - since I view that as a kind of inevitable flag for Shirou. Perhaps it happens later in the timeline, perhaps it occurs at the same point and he just happens to see Cú unintentionally, but the event remains a constant - hell, it's a constant for all routes anyway since it's a core point of the common route. Regardless of what else goes on, Shirou will always get stabbed by a Servant early in the Fifth Holy Grail War and Rin will always save him since that is an inevitable flag. From there the difference here between Fate and UBW (aside from Archer not existing, period) is with his relationship with Saber generally being weaker, and assuming some similar events from UBW, Shirou would catch on that the gem was Rin's, their relationship develops etc etc.
But I could just be talking out of my ass. That's just my 2 cents ^^
Took me a full hour to finish the video cuz the Tyranny OST was making me zone out, what a masterpiece
NO Boofire, don't do this. Don't go down this rabbit-hole and save your sanity.
Go down the Dies Irae one instead.
That's even worse!
I always thought it was the Throne of Heroes that is a Timeless place, that allows Heroes from the past and present to come there and its information installed into it. They only use the Holy Grail as the extra nudge to summon them. There originally was a Heroic Spirit Summoning spell before the Holy Grail was created which was discussed by Hans Christian Anderson in the London Singularity. Originally they used the Holy Grail so that a contract and make a wish between the victor of the 7 classes, the Grail supports them so there won't be a huge prana strain.
Holy shit Boofire I appreciate you going into the fluid vs segmented timeliness. Because when I argue with people about this they don't seem to grasp this concept.
Although I am convinced that Rin actually did summon a servant. If she didn't survive the attack from Cu then Shiro can't be created she needs to survive, shiro needs to be stabbed, and Rin needs to save him with the pendant. That is a requirement. It has to be the hero who has Rho Aias. It would make sense seeing as that hero could fall to Gilgamesh and Shiro could copy it
Wanna know something you can talk about? the Conflict that is said to happen AFTER the Fate and UBW routes....the Conflict that has Rin and Waver along side their followers against the Mage Association because the Association wants to start another Grail War...the only thing we know is that Rin and Waver succeed...Just imagine if this got adapted..we could see an Adult Shirou with all his abilities mastered
As I understand it, the reason that heroes can be summoned from the future is less that they can be pulled back from the future and more that the throne of heroes is atemporal, not really existing within time it's self. So when you tap into it to summon a servant, you can get literally any servant that resides within, regardless of when and where they became a hero. (Within the bounds of the earth that is, or wherever humans are. It does have some slight connection to the collective unconscious after all.) This is part of the reason why servants can't change between summonings in the original game, because they are snapshots of people rather than people. This is made clear by way of using Saber Artoria as a contrast, who isn't technically in the throne, merely using it as a temporal elevator to get her chance at the Grail, and thus can grow as a person. Course, EMIYA seems to remember his time as the counter force's hatchet man, and apparently servants CAN learn (though FGO Mordred having both versions with and without memories of Apocrypha seems to suggest that the throne just makes a second copy if it likes the character development...) means what is explained in Stay Night may be incorrect, as you posit
I can agree with most of the things you said except Rin unable to summon or failing to summon any heroic spirit. If I remember correctly the grail itself lets you summon a servant based on the master and servant compatibility but this can be overridden by using a catalyst.
For anyone wondering, the thumbnail is from Carnival Phantasm.
i know this is an old video and you probably changed your mind on a lot of things but
1. multiverses are confirmed literally within Stay Night, during Heaven's Feel to be precise
2. it is strongly implied that Archer still holds a grudge towards Lancer for stabbing him back in the day
3. Rin can still summon a servant no problem, she just wouldn't have a catalyst and it would automatically use her personality as one, making her summon a servant we simply do not know
4. Archer likely just came up with a way to beat Gil many years after the war
That’s a pretty good breakdown. Plus I like how in this timeline Rin has the same servant as her father.
Apart from this, one other Theoretically possible route would be Kiritsugu actually training Emiya in the ways of Magecraft (like that of Miyuverse).
We know that Archer can't possibly be from HF route cuz that route's Shirou was more focused on saving his important ones more than saving all and Shirou's soul was transferred into a homunculus body(?). Or maybe Alaya can also provide another body? Well, we'll come to that later.
After the death of Kiritsugu, Shirou actually becomes a proper master and properly summons Saber. Since Avalon will always exist within Shirou, Saber will always get attracted to Shirou. Now, under these circumstances, Shirou may or may not form an alliance with Rin but will definitely suggest a cease-fire between them. Rin could possibly summon another archer or that Gilgamesh situation. Shirou gets an upper hand in the war defeating servants but not killing their masters. Gil betrays/enters. Shirou, who this time can actually use magecraft, as the last bet uses a Reality Marble hoping to buy time till Saber and Rin defeat Kirei and Lancer. He could possibly die and gets revived by Rin and therefore has the pendant. Or, Shirou somehow manages to push Gil back cuz Gil looked down on a Faker. His mana runs out and Reality Marble vanishes but Saber saves the day and FSN closed. Now from here, there may be two possibilities.
1) If Saber route follows and Shirou died in his battle against Gil, He'll join Rin and follows her to study as a proper mage and the Alaya situation follows. This time the romantic partner may or may not be Rin as Sakura isn't dead yet guys and Shirou would never reach Avalon. The gem comes from Rin reviving Shirou in his last battle against Gil.
2) If UBW Route follows and Shirou never dies the whole time, he'll still study in London. Rin is his romantic partner and the Gem could've been a keepsake from Rin.
Another possibility is that Rin died due to Gil's betrayal and in a fit of rage Shirou used Tohsaka's Gems to cast a Reality Marble. And this time the Gem is a reminder of Rin and his mistake in the war.
In a nutshell, Unless Nasu makes an Archer Route to FSN, you are free to make any possible story for the creation of Emiya.
And discussing Emiya Alter is in itself another matter.
Well I mean Merlin being imprisoned in Avalon, practically out of time, was able to be summoned via a contract of sorts with King Gil even though the events of Babylon occurred long before Merlin was trapped in the tower. But we know that Merlin isn't dead and is still/always in the tower and shouldn't be able to be summoned because the throne shouldn't be able to record a hero that never died.
The throne of heroes where Heroic Spirits are stored exist outside of spacetime, thus if in any moment in time Archer comes to be then Archer will always have already been at the Throne of Heroes. Thus Archer would have been present in the first 5th HGW.
Maybe Rin knew Shirou could become a master so after her failed summon, she went to Shirou for protection as she was still a target as a potential target. But since both of them didn't have a servant, Cu thought he could kill 2 potential masters at the same time and Kirei would allow it. But then you got Saber appearing as a servant to both Shirou and Rin with Shirou being the true master but Rin supplying them with magic. Since Shirou would have to protect Rin as well, a romantic relationship would develop and Saber would just be their knight servant.
I honestly want to see this adapted. Seems perfect.