This community is so fucking lucky to have one of the very best professional players also be one of the very best content creators. Absolutely incredible to be honest.
Dark age became Deer (luring) age due to changes in map scripts and being able to find all your stuff easier. More food (deer) and consistent resources = faster builds
@@riukasoulripper8252 oh it was amazing, big fan hands down. I admit it is a shame that it may push out certain play styles by encouraging faster play, but since DE you realize how much mental energy was spent on things that are just not fun in the old days. The mental loop is shorter and more focused on the fun gameplay elements instead of on remembering to build farms every X minutes. The old game feels like playing concentration by comparison, more of a test of memory than a test of quick thinking and good execution.
Loved this video! As a semi casual player it can be really hard to keep up with the what, why, and how of the ever changing meta. More general overviews like this and deeper dives into more specific topics would be extremely helpful.
Game nearly upside down just within last year. As casual player, i cant keep up with amounts of changes. Shortly after i bought game and learned something, got a bit confident with arcehr rushing and then theres nerf and half year after new dlc :D
Can you talk about relic collections as well? I feel like back in the day pro players were not prioritizing relics as much as today. It seems pretty obvious that shift click has a big impact on how hard/easy is it to collect them.
100% I'm mostly an Arena clown and in DE you can just build one monk and shift click all 5 relics and then let him do his thing while you focus on protecting the relics and taking map control, assuming you can take map control before your opponent, which I almost always do.
@@mbvglider The monk will not skip the planned return trip to the monastery, right? Or is there some trick to shift-queue the all-relic tour without manually assigning delivery trips for each relic?
@@EliasHasle If the relic disappears, I'm pretty sure he just goes to the next waypoint (monastery) and then to the next one. In theory, this could be slightly inefficient if the relic he is tasked to is removed from the map while the monk is on his way. In practice, I've not found this to actually be a problem, as it's not that likely to happen, and I usually don't expect one monk to be able to do all five anyway, so will queue a second monk to grab a couple himself.
@@mbvglider Thank you. The inefficiency I had in mind was that the monk returns to the monastery (as planned) before heading for the next relic. He could save some time by going directly to the relic, much like a villager will go to the next tree automatically. But of course, it would just be annoying if the direct path went right through the opponent's base or past a known castle. And also, villagers choose their own resource dropping points, whereas relic dropping points actually do matter. PS (kind of off-topic): The game "Knights and Merchants", from around the same time as AoE1, took the simulation realism further, by having all resources be movable entities. If a storage building were destroyed, your resources in that building were lost. And serfs had to bring food and wine(!) out to your army. Too bad the pathing behavior and game interface were really lousy. 😅
I was asking myself the same question. I play on and off in binges. Each time I get better, but the meta always changes nowadays when I get back. Started at 1150 and learned archers>scouts in the wall meta, then came back and did a lot of MAA to archers (1450), and now I’m having to learn these faster builds. Great for players who like aggressive scout builds (my fav back on game ranger) since we don’t have to worry about walls as much. Always watch your videos, you make the best aoe content
Very interesting topic, it's crazy that a game as old as Aoe2 keeps evolving! In terms of watching, less walls makes for more action usually so that's good. But in terms of playing, personally I kinda struggle to keep up with the added speed lol
This was one of the best AOE2 videos I’ve ever seen, and I watch alot of AOE2 content. This really helps me understand the underlying game theory of early builds better. Keep content like this coming!
My man, that backing track really sounded like Freestyler by Bombfunk MCs. I nearly spat my coffee out. Great video though. Luring deer is definitely a big reason for these faster builds, gotta be.
Very nice video...imo the appearance of new civs (and new eco bonuses) also makes it possible. For instance, Khmer and Poles with their farms, Japanese with cheaper mill and lumbercmp, Portuguese with new passive wood income, just to mention some. My top BO is still MAA+Archers 22 pop...very powerful!
Really good video. I like to watch you play on youtube but now that you make those videos it makes me more motivated to watch you even more. It's good to show different point of views and make people think in order to evolve as gamers and people, so this kind of content with the content of your other channel is really good and i really appreciate it. I hope people also appreciates it, and i root for you and every player on the game to improve and make this game even better since nowadays is hard to find a good game. Thanks for the video and I'm looking for the next one!
one big thing you didnt make explicit: on anything but drush faster uptime means military advantage bc on 1 production builds you are mostly limited by production time, not rescources. but another production buildings costs 175 wood which is a lot so starting 25s ealier gives you the military advantage if you can keep up your macro cycles.
I also think top players have gotten better at micro and doing more with less in the last few years. This lets them get away with much smaller armies in early fights and really enables the fast up meta. I think Hoang is a good example of someone who was ahead of the meta here, he's been doing these ultra-thrifty pushes for a while now
I think the faster servers compared to the P2P helps. way back in the day, people would even get Loom before luring any boars as the lag could be really bad and was common to loose vils as a result. But that could be a combination of skill and lag and knowledge and as Hera mentioned the Quality of life features.
Awesome video, so insightful! I’d love to see a video on why we see 2 militia drush rather than the 3 militia today. And why we don’t see the 5 militia drush from Aztecs as much anymore
Interesting question! I am no expert, but it seems highly related to the faster feudal. 2 militia can attack faster than 3, before Feudal counters are on the table, and make a similar distraction at a lower cost (and less long term "commitment" of attention and economy to keep them alive). If you can get the defender to spend TC time on Loom or chase your militia with many villagers, that is costly. If they defend with militia of their own, you will at least have superior knowledge of their army (composition and location) and economy, giving you a fair chance of "welcoming" them with an appropriate Feudal defence.
This is honestly one of the best videos of understanding AOE. Instead of telling us a build order to follow, it makes us understand why build orders are or aren't effective, how to counter them and just get a good understanding of how RTS games in general work and evolve. Its not technical, its not about Micro or even macro (these just help execute the plan), just explaining the decision making. If you want to become a good player this is the stuff that will really transform your game (in my opinion, which isn't worth much lol). Its also why you need to play 1,000's of games to try out different scenarios of types of maps/civ match-ups why M@A for example will/won't work. These are the more nuanced stuff that is never talked about. Great stuff Hera! (even if I am still banned on your twitch about 4 years ago after watching just 1 game 🤣)
Watched one of Spirit of the Law’s videos that mentioned collection rate were different before DE. With the pathing change, vils collect more than before. That’s probably why current builds are affected as well.
Hi Hera, excellent video! I never thought of this before. Over the years, did something similar happen for the Imperial age timing as well? Would love to hear your thoughts on full cattle age vs faster imp too.
Hugely informative, and well-presented! I don't play the game, but I love watching, so videos like these really help me understand how the game is evolving.
Great video, Really interesting to think about how dark age has changed and why. You've been coming up with some really thoughtful stuff lastly, love it.
How about a video on post-imp meta, what units and compositions are favorable over others, what civs struggle in post imp (both with gold and without gold), etc
Are there Build Orders in use that lure deer with Militia, so you could scout simultaneously? I don't play much online and thus wanted to end games early and have an edge. I tested this: - inital vills build 2 houses, then go on straggler trees - the first new vill on stragglers - force drop of wood and then the first 5 vills on sheep - 6th vill builds a barrack and a house, then on stragglers - 7th on sheep - 8th lures boar - 9 and 10 on stragglers - 11 lures boar, create militia at this point and lure deer (with follow command) - when 100 wood build Lumbercamp or Mill
Very good, love the analysis! Very much reminds me of SC2 where after years and years the builds have to be spot on or in some cases you are in deep trouble
Good one man. It would be great if you could make another series of how to open - scouts into knights, maa into archers, drush fc, scouts into archers in the new meta. And at the same time another series of how to counter the same.
@hera If you go up quick with scout rush, and can only choose between horse collar and double bit axe. what if you choose horse collar first, because you need to farm quick, and and get double bit axe, for the wood bonus. Why would most pros get double bit axe quick even though some farms, or probably most farms in feudal end up with no horse collar? Isnt the first way better for aggresive and some economic approach?
I would love to see a video about what features you would like to see come into the game. Game controls, optimizations, mods that should be part of the game, etc.
Hello Hera ! If I have a feedback to give I'd say "Please continue this type of videos where you share your thoughts about the game. You're a pro, so anything you think is at least interesting, and is almost always entertaining and helping to get better and have fun at the game" So... Please continue :D I've almost watched every "documentary" video you've done Have a good day
It's super interesting to see the differences between AoE2 and something like Starcraft Brood War. AoE2 has so much more creativity because things are slower paced and aren't mapped out nearly as much. In Brood War, people do stuff like mineral boosting at the beginning to be 8 minerals ahead in a 1 second window, which is not nearly as much of a difference as being 8 wood ahead for 1 second in AoE2.
Hi Hera, would you recommend walling up one side if you're a mid ELO player (I'm 1600) I tend to find that I don't get surprised by raids as much and I can protect the other side with army.
Your math at 5:40 doesn't check out. It costs 380 - the 200 extra res from going up later = 180 res for the MAA, and 140 + 175 = 315 for the archer player to defend, so the MAA player is "ahead".
Good explanation. Was writing out how QoL changes on DE were the biggest reason. And then it's mentioned at the end :) It would be interesting to see with the same build how many more resources you'd have clicking everything before on voobly versus the quality of life DE brought. I think this would be the single greatest reason IMO. But testing that would be cool, with checking how fast you did the scout builds before versus now. Even the same pop, so you can compare the res in one versus the other and see how many res you really save with all these QoL features. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a villager's worth of time (esp. inc. more hunt). Would be a cool video, maybe more SOTL or Twest in style, but if it's your videos of recs from before, would be cool: how many resources do you gain by playing on DE versus the older versions?
Also what's the point in getting double-bit axe when you've got 2 or 3 lumberjacks/jills? It's like going gillnets for a single fishing-ship. Get at least a few up in your pond, lake, etc., then go Gillnets.
I think pros severly underestimate staggler trees. - You can use fewer vills for the beginning on wood (spared walk to LC and LC build time which builds later) - Between the first and second boar you should extract out a staggler with the boar vills - instead of timing the arrival of the second one right when the first go off, this is better utilization and easy to change. - Before boars you should push deer for this. - For me this works best with Huns. My issue is not that I cannot go 18 pop scout rush - but that I always forget to do so after playing a closed map haha This also not work for double-stable stuff. Also it might be unusual at first because you literally have no one constantly on wood like the 4 on wood simple stuff, but its more adhoc between having 0 and like 7-10 (depending on when the timing is between the two boars). Also right when building the LC from the 100 wood collected this way, you should make the vills stay there. At least this works for me. On a 6vill start I was able to reach 14:37 castle time with 27 vills up (Huns), but usually I do this with the 3 vill starts. Have no idea how stuff like having mongols or 9 vill starts change this.
I also loved this video. On another note, I recently watched the Nomad start video again and found a few more things I was doing wrong. Since Regicide makes an occasional appearance on the ranked platform, can you do a Regicide start video? Thanks in advance.
I think now is easier to lure deer because of a better map generation, the lack of lag let you hit the boar with tc (and not killing it), and shift queing makes builds more efficient. Also walls are weaker, more expensive and takes longer to build, so it's essier to make damage now.
I think also the improvements of the AI on the villagers also affects how good your economy is... i thing sotl has one video comparing diferent resource collection ratio on diferent AI villagers
The villager pathfinding and traffic behavior is still disastrous at times, though. E.g.: Lumberjacks occasionally go on a strike (idling) if access to the perimeter of the lumber camp is modestly constrained, such as down to ~two tiles, while alternative drop-off paths are also blocked by walls. I have not studied in detail how this happens, but I think the villagers give up on resolving what should have been minor traffic jams. UPDATE: Even a single villager displayed this behavior in a constrained space (between a market, a house, a lumbercamp, and a dense forest). I think the villager idled after every completed tree. He could then easily find a new one to chop once tasked again. I guess he was just lazy! 😂 (or there is a bug in the algorithm for choosing the next tree). Likewise, milling for shore fish in small pits sometimes results in villagers locking at points on the shore. At first, I thought they were interlocking, since they stacked up in one point, but it turned out that a single villager showed the same behavior. I lost the game, obviously...
Yeah, cant agree more. This is heavily seen on arena and bf as well. You can easily go 22 pop fc boom with nearly every civ, better civs even 20, i am around 1700 in TGs
With standard resources setup 22+2 pop fc into boom not worty for most civs. Not possible to afford bow saw+ heavy plow+ minimum TC's idle. Most agressive fc boom is 23+2 with eco bonuses or 24+2 without. Although fc into agression (like siege or CD) some civs can make with 22+2 pop or even earlier.
@@kristianburys160 Eco with +4 exrta vils, but with 6-7 min delayed castle age eco upgrades, don't have better efficiency in relation to collected resources. Overall goal of boom approach - is to give imp army with good timing. There is many ways to solve it, every player choose most comfortable buildorder for him.
To Hera's editor: I thought the blurred background was actually more distracting, it gave my tiny brain very little to focus on after taking in the text and zoning out easier when listening. Just my two cents! Love the video though! ❤ Edit: I noticed the blur was already replied to on another comment so nevermind me. :D
At which elo would you recommend to switch to the faster builds? Do you recommend to learn all the basic BOs at the same time or one trick and master each individually?
Hey Hera thanks for this video, I've just cracked 1k using your older October Builds and was just thinking about this the other day. If I'm to take the maa-archers or straight archers build down a vill is there a particular resource change only keep the 4 on wood instead of sending a 5th or take a vill from food to be the 2nd gold miner once I click feudal?
Hera, just one correction though. When you factor in double bit axe, considering the value of the tech increases with the number of vils on wood, that means there is deminision returns kinda thing on the population of dark age. In other words, for every additional dark age pop gained the value of all the previous dark age pop goes down. If i am not maoing sense, then lets simply say double bit axe equals 4.88 wood per minute per villager. So wood lost by delaying the tech would be 4.88 multiplied by X where X is the number of "dark age villagers". So yhe higher X goes the more wood per minute is lost which is then reducing the value of the next dark age pop in a way.
Dear Hera, I know you probably are busy right now preparing for NAC 4 but afterwards would you mind to update your build orders? I am still using the build orders you shared in the discord 2-3 Years ago and seeing this now I guess a 22pop Archer build has fallen out of fashion. Thx in advance and for the great content, keep it up!
Have had the opposite feeling at 1k elo. Going up later gives me the res to do things instead of trying to rush the age ups. Especially delaying imp by spaming units and keeping pressure seems like the best way. Hit 1200 by playing a little more chill than trying to time the build perfectly and going up faster.
To be exact, going up at 22 to 24 pop with walling means I am able to hold and make more defensive army to defend and then push in feudal. It can snowball if I am able to get decent trades.(lol you just mentioned exactly this while I was trying).
@@battleforevermore Hera is talking about the cutting edge. Theoretically suboptimal strategies (that are easier to master in practice) can suffice (and be more convenient) for defeating sub-elite players.
If you build a stable with 10 vills instead of 2, you save 25 seconds. This is more resource efficient than going up 1 pop earlier. (lose 50 vill seconds ~ 17 resources) If you would have the vills around the tc and build the stable close, would this be good option? (Probably just not practical in case of smoothness of your eco)
My math says you are losing 54s, plus way, way more in increased walking time. I can't see building a stable with more than 6-7 vils being good, the marginal value of another builder is just so low.
@@quakesquakes From what I heard another day, additional builders contribute with only 1/3 of the speed of the first one. And while building, they can neither walk anywhere nor extract resources.
@@quakesquakes That moving a worker from gathering a resource to assisting on a building project dramatically reduces their efficiency, even if only for a short while. I understand, however, that it may be of high priority to get started producing scouts, and I have not done the math to compare with any alternatives.
Nice topic! I liked the discussion, but think the script was less developed than your usual... also too much shade in the image, feels kinda weird... Just to contribute with the discussion, IMHO, the effect of dark age in endgame is even heavier to lower elo (Idle TC, Inefficient Builds, Far Gather, Housed... or the sum of those parts!) than pro players (that somehow can comeback from losing vils to MAA,).
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 as always you're wholesome to heart such feedback :). By shade I mean the unfocused / obfuscated effect in the video... feels like I'm not wearing glasses, you know? About the script, usually your "natural" have better flow, making it more enjoyable... and I say that not to be mean, as I love your content :)...
Hey Hera, I think a lot of the time the luckier player has the better dark age though? Better map, find their sheep earlier etc, even laming is luck based.
as a 1600 i already struggled with affording DBA at 19 pop archers (mainly due to the wood cost, not the food cost). the more i try even faster builds, the more often i cant afford it right away and end up just forgetting it until i notice i dont have it when i try to get bowsaw in castle, and that just ends up hurting more than what the earlier uptime gains me. i still prefer slightly slower builds like 19 pop scouts, 20 pop archers or 22 pop m@a just to afford dba and some small walls and avoid idleing my tc more consistently. maybe i just try to do too much at once, i dont know.
Double-bit axe pays back way faster than horse collar, so I would definitely recommend it even in fast up builds. The bonus is just huge, a 20% rate increase is like having an extra chopper per every 5. This upgrade typically pays back in under 5 minutes.
you dont get the issue, i WANT to grab it right away but dont have enough resources for it then, and by the time i do i have forgotten i did not actually get it.
Try to forgo the walls and not building house until you actually need it, maybe you'll be able to afford DBA right away, though it's kinda tricky since it could also be lumberjack innefficiency that held you back.
To me, the maps have changed a lot throughout the years. It's way easier to scout your sheep nowadays. The boar has changed to rino and elephants with more food. Lagless game makes it easier to lure boars, push deer, micro with TC.-- And many civs have eco bonus to sustain those builds.
I start to play the game 1 year ago, I was 800, i learned to old build order from french youtube Channel, like 21 pop scout rush, 22 pop archer rush etc ... Began to get rekt around 1050. Now I am 1200 but I had to learn these New build orders and the games are pretty intense. Horse collar is a hard décision to make, the hardest part when you go early feudal is the lack of wood, so I understood that I needed to push deers to save wood for farms later, skip horse collar beginning of feudal age, and 1 lumber camp can be good if you need the wood early feudal
I had to look up what META stood for. I keep hearing it in AOE2 videos but everyone expects you to understand all the acronyms they use. Most Efficient Tactic Available.
Yo hera I don't know if you have talked about this topic, but I find it very competitive when giving the ai 200% handicap, it's fun and challenging, can you please make a video about it and show us how to beat 200% powerful ai?
I just started playing 5 days ago. I appreciate the video. Any others that you would recommend for a noob? Videos that teach/explain how to start and move forward with upgrades etc? I find that I get real lost on upgrades and when to build army instead of only eco.
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 I would for sure watch such a video. I have been trying to get my hotkey stuff figured out to be more efficient but I think what that has done is make it all more confusing for me because I'm pressuring myself to be quick without really understanding what I am doing lol. I played 1 ranked game so far (lost of course) and realized quickly I need to learn the basics first rather than worrying about super efficiency and hotkeys in terms of always queuing villagers and keeping them busy. I also need to utilize way points or figure out how to que up tasks so I am not having to find the idle villager and then task them again.
@@lugal-zage-si4782 Thanks, I'll check Survivalist out. I actually got interested in the game after youtube recommended a fatslob video that T90 made. Something about his playstyle was fun to watch. This was about 6 months ago and many many T90 video's later and I finally bought the game last week and quickly realized that playing and watching are completely different hahaha.
In fact is easier to gain elo by just one trick pony. Best example is Hoang with celts. With a solid BO executed over and over again you can get a lot of quick wins vs better overal players, but you will struggle on civs knowledgment and late game mechanics. Edit: for that reason i consider the real elo is which you can maintain by playing random civs and a couple of maps consistently.
I just broke 1k by focusing and practising one build with one civ (maa archers Mayans). Now I'll probably swap to another to do the same with scouts and then transfer them to other civs
Math is a bit wrong. Going up 1 vil later gives you 130 dark age villager seconds. That is worth about 50 wood. However double bit axe is also 25 seconds later which is worth (# of lumberjacks x 0.2 x 25) villager seconds. So with 8 lumberjacks for example the extra wood from earlier double bit is also about 15 wood. All in going up 1 vil earlier costs 30-35 wood roughly. Pushing 1 deer however is much more than that as it's already half a farm worth of food (30 wood) it also collects much faster than farm food. Collecting 115 food of a farm takes about 57 villager seconds longer than food of hunt which in turn is also another ~20 wood. So basically 1 vil earlier costs 30-35 wood but pushing a deer is ~50 wood. Pushing all deer however can leave you a bit in the blind but if you do AND go super fast scouts or archers you are safe, you can pressure and you economy is better than someone who upped later and didnt get deer.
I'd like to see a video on shortcuts, it's a very big topic I think, and I see pro players clicking things like crazy, I still drag my PC mouse one villager at a time lol
I understand the reason why u almost every game skips horse collar. However, I really think that u have to think more carefully about this decision in each particular game. Most games, farms without horse colar begin to expire right at the time u reach castle, and sometimes is a crucial window to have your farms working. I saw many games that your lack of horse colar in feudal (and imperial without heavy plow), make your economy much weaker. I undertand that if you lose in feudal, there is no Castle age lmao. But I think you have to check this trade-off more carefully according to the game situation.
To me the current meta is more like a real-time tactics game than a real-time strategy. If I wanted to have to worry about microing military in the first few mins of playing I would play StarCraft that does that kind of thing better IMO. Could also say this all comes from how oppressive archers are against almost everything at all stages of the game right now. Back to Farmville for me I guess...
Why tf people crying about archers all the time :D They are military units - supposed to be oppresive :D They are low hp, cant do much against buildings, have a lot of different counters from various civs.
I literally get eye sores whilst playing aoe nowadays. Kinds feels you don't have time to blink anymore, lol. The skill level of the average joe on ranked is pretty strong Very happy for the success of AoE though.
This community is so fucking lucky to have one of the very best professional players also be one of the very best content creators. Absolutely incredible to be honest.
Dark age became Deer (luring) age due to changes in map scripts and being able to find all your stuff easier. More food (deer) and consistent resources = faster builds
Plus DE convenience features like shift-queue mean there’s so much more spare attention for early game efficiency.
@@0oShwavyo0 do you feel that this change was good? Or do you prefer how it was before?
@@riukasoulripper8252 oh it was amazing, big fan hands down. I admit it is a shame that it may push out certain play styles by encouraging faster play, but since DE you realize how much mental energy was spent on things that are just not fun in the old days. The mental loop is shorter and more focused on the fun gameplay elements instead of on remembering to build farms every X minutes. The old game feels like playing concentration by comparison, more of a test of memory than a test of quick thinking and good execution.
now if only deer were easier to push
I remember back in the day when you didn’t start with being able to see your sheep automatically lol
Loved this video! As a semi casual player it can be really hard to keep up with the what, why, and how of the ever changing meta. More general overviews like this and deeper dives into more specific topics would be extremely helpful.
Game nearly upside down just within last year. As casual player, i cant keep up with amounts of changes. Shortly after i bought game and learned something, got a bit confident with arcehr rushing and then theres nerf and half year after new dlc :D
Can you talk about relic collections as well? I feel like back in the day pro players were not prioritizing relics as much as today. It seems pretty obvious that shift click has a big impact on how hard/easy is it to collect them.
100% I'm mostly an Arena clown and in DE you can just build one monk and shift click all 5 relics and then let him do his thing while you focus on protecting the relics and taking map control, assuming you can take map control before your opponent, which I almost always do.
I honestly love how shift-click works for monks. I love that if one relic is gone from the map, the monk will just go to the next relic.
@@mbvglider The monk will not skip the planned return trip to the monastery, right? Or is there some trick to shift-queue the all-relic tour without manually assigning delivery trips for each relic?
@@EliasHasle If the relic disappears, I'm pretty sure he just goes to the next waypoint (monastery) and then to the next one. In theory, this could be slightly inefficient if the relic he is tasked to is removed from the map while the monk is on his way. In practice, I've not found this to actually be a problem, as it's not that likely to happen, and I usually don't expect one monk to be able to do all five anyway, so will queue a second monk to grab a couple himself.
@@mbvglider Thank you. The inefficiency I had in mind was that the monk returns to the monastery (as planned) before heading for the next relic. He could save some time by going directly to the relic, much like a villager will go to the next tree automatically. But of course, it would just be annoying if the direct path went right through the opponent's base or past a known castle. And also, villagers choose their own resource dropping points, whereas relic dropping points actually do matter.
PS (kind of off-topic): The game "Knights and Merchants", from around the same time as AoE1, took the simulation realism further, by having all resources be movable entities. If a storage building were destroyed, your resources in that building were lost. And serfs had to bring food and wine(!) out to your army. Too bad the pathing behavior and game interface were really lousy. 😅
I was asking myself the same question. I play on and off in binges. Each time I get better, but the meta always changes nowadays when I get back. Started at 1150 and learned archers>scouts in the wall meta, then came back and did a lot of MAA to archers (1450), and now I’m having to learn these faster builds. Great for players who like aggressive scout builds (my fav back on game ranger) since we don’t have to worry about walls as much.
Always watch your videos, you make the best aoe content
Very interesting topic, it's crazy that a game as old as Aoe2 keeps evolving! In terms of watching, less walls makes for more action usually so that's good. But in terms of playing, personally I kinda struggle to keep up with the added speed lol
The game has become ultra-sweaty
We love you Hera! It just feels so good to watch your videos. You are very humble, kind, and motivational ❤️
Let's Go Hera, you'll definitely hit 100k subs this year, I'm rooting for you , definitely deserve to get more recognition
This was one of the best AOE2 videos I’ve ever seen, and I watch alot of AOE2 content.
This really helps me understand the underlying game theory of early builds better. Keep content like this coming!
My man, that backing track really sounded like Freestyler by Bombfunk MCs. I nearly spat my coffee out.
Great video though. Luring deer is definitely a big reason for these faster builds, gotta be.
Very nice video...imo the appearance of new civs (and new eco bonuses) also makes it possible. For instance, Khmer and Poles with their farms, Japanese with cheaper mill and lumbercmp, Portuguese with new passive wood income, just to mention some. My top BO is still MAA+Archers 22 pop...very powerful!
Great video. Will always watch a Hera commentary video.
Really good video. I like to watch you play on youtube but now that you make those videos it makes me more motivated to watch you even more. It's good to show different point of views and make people think in order to evolve as gamers and people, so this kind of content with the content of your other channel is really good and i really appreciate it. I hope people also appreciates it, and i root for you and every player on the game to improve and make this game even better since nowadays is hard to find a good game. Thanks for the video and I'm looking for the next one!
one big thing you didnt make explicit: on anything but drush faster uptime means military advantage bc on 1 production builds you are mostly limited by production time, not rescources. but another production buildings costs 175 wood which is a lot so starting 25s ealier gives you the military advantage if you can keep up your macro cycles.
I also think top players have gotten better at micro and doing more with less in the last few years. This lets them get away with much smaller armies in early fights and really enables the fast up meta. I think Hoang is a good example of someone who was ahead of the meta here, he's been doing these ultra-thrifty pushes for a while now
He also did drush-FC and doesn't really do that anymore to my understanding, though. The meta actually got too fast for him and even he had to adapt.
I think the faster servers compared to the P2P helps. way back in the day, people would even get Loom before luring any boars as the lag could be really bad and was common to loose vils as a result. But that could be a combination of skill and lag and knowledge and as Hera mentioned the Quality of life features.
Awesome video, so insightful! I’d love to see a video on why we see 2 militia drush rather than the 3 militia today. And why we don’t see the 5 militia drush from Aztecs as much anymore
Interesting question! I am no expert, but it seems highly related to the faster feudal. 2 militia can attack faster than 3, before Feudal counters are on the table, and make a similar distraction at a lower cost (and less long term "commitment" of attention and economy to keep them alive). If you can get the defender to spend TC time on Loom or chase your militia with many villagers, that is costly. If they defend with militia of their own, you will at least have superior knowledge of their army (composition and location) and economy, giving you a fair chance of "welcoming" them with an appropriate Feudal defence.
This is honestly one of the best videos of understanding AOE. Instead of telling us a build order to follow, it makes us understand why build orders are or aren't effective, how to counter them and just get a good understanding of how RTS games in general work and evolve. Its not technical, its not about Micro or even macro (these just help execute the plan), just explaining the decision making. If you want to become a good player this is the stuff that will really transform your game (in my opinion, which isn't worth much lol). Its also why you need to play 1,000's of games to try out different scenarios of types of maps/civ match-ups why M@A for example will/won't work. These are the more nuanced stuff that is never talked about.
Great stuff Hera! (even if I am still banned on your twitch about 4 years ago after watching just 1 game 🤣)
Super interesting Hera, I really learned. Your energy seems great as well, keep it up and best of luck!
Watched one of Spirit of the Law’s videos that mentioned collection rate were different before DE. With the pathing change, vils collect more than before. That’s probably why current builds are affected as well.
Hi Hera, excellent video! I never thought of this before. Over the years, did something similar happen for the Imperial age timing as well? Would love to hear your thoughts on full cattle age vs faster imp too.
Hugely informative, and well-presented! I don't play the game, but I love watching, so videos like these really help me understand how the game is evolving.
Great video! Thanks, Hera.
Can you cover power spike timings for each civ? Or like when it is best to attack with each civ (e.g. early castle)
As always, nice video. Thx for your time. Best luck, seeing foreword to 3000 elo soon
Great video, Really interesting to think about how dark age has changed and why. You've been coming up with some really thoughtful stuff lastly, love it.
Very well articulated Hera, I feel this is probably one of the best explanations I've heard you give. Great understanding and communication here!
I enjoy aoe2 more because of Hera. Thanks for all you do for the community!
How about a video on post-imp meta, what units and compositions are favorable over others, what civs struggle in post imp (both with gold and without gold), etc
He's got a video on every civs post imp compositions
Post imp meta is Flemish revolution
@@ihmpall or early imp like NAC4 final
Are there Build Orders in use that lure deer with Militia, so you could scout simultaneously?
I don't play much online and thus wanted to end games early and have an edge. I tested this:
- inital vills build 2 houses, then go on straggler trees
- the first new vill on stragglers
- force drop of wood and then the first 5 vills on sheep
- 6th vill builds a barrack and a house, then on stragglers
- 7th on sheep
- 8th lures boar
- 9 and 10 on stragglers
- 11 lures boar, create militia at this point and lure deer (with follow command)
- when 100 wood build Lumbercamp or Mill
Very good, love the analysis! Very much reminds me of SC2 where after years and years the builds have to be spot on or in some cases you are in deep trouble
Good one man. It would be great if you could make another series of how to open - scouts into knights, maa into archers, drush fc, scouts into archers in the new meta.
And at the same time another series of how to counter the same.
@hera If you go up quick with scout rush, and can only choose between horse collar and double bit axe. what if you choose horse collar first, because you need to farm quick, and and get double bit axe, for the wood bonus. Why would most pros get double bit axe quick even though some farms, or probably most farms in feudal end up with no horse collar? Isnt the first way better for aggresive and some economic approach?
Double bit axe pays back way faster. Do the math
Yeah, i was asking the same, a few year ago it was crazy thinking this meta
I would love to see a video about what features you would like to see come into the game. Game controls, optimizations, mods that should be part of the game, etc.
What I heard: Drush into MAA needs a buff. Good video, really enjoyed this.
Hello Hera ! If I have a feedback to give I'd say "Please continue this type of videos where you share your thoughts about the game. You're a pro, so anything you think is at least interesting, and is almost always entertaining and helping to get better and have fun at the game"
So... Please continue :D I've almost watched every "documentary" video you've done
Have a good day
It's super interesting to see the differences between AoE2 and something like Starcraft Brood War. AoE2 has so much more creativity because things are slower paced and aren't mapped out nearly as much.
In Brood War, people do stuff like mineral boosting at the beginning to be 8 minerals ahead in a 1 second window, which is not nearly as much of a difference as being 8 wood ahead for 1 second in AoE2.
Hi Hera, would you recommend walling up one side if you're a mid ELO player (I'm 1600) I tend to find that I don't get surprised by raids as much and I can protect the other side with army.
Your math at 5:40 doesn't check out. It costs 380 - the 200 extra res from going up later = 180 res for the MAA, and 140 + 175 = 315 for the archer player to defend, so the MAA player is "ahead".
Good explanation. Was writing out how QoL changes on DE were the biggest reason. And then it's mentioned at the end :)
It would be interesting to see with the same build how many more resources you'd have clicking everything before on voobly versus the quality of life DE brought. I think this would be the single greatest reason IMO. But testing that would be cool, with checking how fast you did the scout builds before versus now. Even the same pop, so you can compare the res in one versus the other and see how many res you really save with all these QoL features. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a villager's worth of time (esp. inc. more hunt). Would be a cool video, maybe more SOTL or Twest in style, but if it's your videos of recs from before, would be cool: how many resources do you gain by playing on DE versus the older versions?
Also what's the point in getting double-bit axe when you've got 2 or 3 lumberjacks/jills?
It's like going gillnets for a single fishing-ship. Get at least a few up in your pond, lake, etc., then go Gillnets.
great video as always. although, audio wise, it sounds like you recorded this in your anti-zombie bunker XD
Great video! Provoked a lot of thought!
I think pros severly underestimate staggler trees.
- You can use fewer vills for the beginning on wood (spared walk to LC and LC build time which builds later)
- Between the first and second boar you should extract out a staggler with the boar vills - instead of timing the arrival of the second one right when the first go off, this is better utilization and easy to change.
- Before boars you should push deer for this.
- For me this works best with Huns. My issue is not that I cannot go 18 pop scout rush - but that I always forget to do so after playing a closed map haha
This also not work for double-stable stuff. Also it might be unusual at first because you literally have no one constantly on wood like the 4 on wood simple stuff, but its more adhoc between having 0 and like 7-10 (depending on when the timing is between the two boars). Also right when building the LC from the 100 wood collected this way, you should make the vills stay there.
At least this works for me. On a 6vill start I was able to reach 14:37 castle time with 27 vills up (Huns), but usually I do this with the 3 vill starts. Have no idea how stuff like having mongols or 9 vill starts change this.
So what do you think about the fastest 9 pop -> idle TC -> scout rush with Khmers ?
I also loved this video. On another note, I recently watched the Nomad start video again and found a few more things I was doing wrong. Since Regicide makes an occasional appearance on the ranked platform, can you do a Regicide start video? Thanks in advance.
Hera, that background you're using around 1:40 when talking about the history of ups is ruining my eyes, not sure if alone
I think now is easier to lure deer because of a better map generation, the lack of lag let you hit the boar with tc (and not killing it), and shift queing makes builds more efficient. Also walls are weaker, more expensive and takes longer to build, so it's essier to make damage now.
Loved this video @Hera
I think also the improvements of the AI on the villagers also affects how good your economy is... i thing sotl has one video comparing diferent resource collection ratio on diferent AI villagers
The villager pathfinding and traffic behavior is still disastrous at times, though. E.g.: Lumberjacks occasionally go on a strike (idling) if access to the perimeter of the lumber camp is modestly constrained, such as down to ~two tiles, while alternative drop-off paths are also blocked by walls. I have not studied in detail how this happens, but I think the villagers give up on resolving what should have been minor traffic jams. UPDATE: Even a single villager displayed this behavior in a constrained space (between a market, a house, a lumbercamp, and a dense forest). I think the villager idled after every completed tree. He could then easily find a new one to chop once tasked again. I guess he was just lazy! 😂 (or there is a bug in the algorithm for choosing the next tree).
Likewise, milling for shore fish in small pits sometimes results in villagers locking at points on the shore. At first, I thought they were interlocking, since they stacked up in one point, but it turned out that a single villager showed the same behavior. I lost the game, obviously...
05:38 - a little mistake, 18 pop up time ~ 8: 25 with loom or ~ 8: 00 without loom
Yeah, cant agree more. This is heavily seen on arena and bf as well. You can easily go 22 pop fc boom with nearly every civ, better civs even 20, i am around 1700 in TGs
With standard resources setup 22+2 pop fc into boom not worty for most civs. Not possible to afford bow saw+ heavy plow+ minimum TC's idle. Most agressive fc boom is 23+2 with eco bonuses or 24+2 without.
Although fc into agression (like siege or CD) some civs can make with 22+2 pop or even earlier.
@@valger3652 i disagree, you dont need bow saw nor heavyplow if you have extra tcs minute faster than others
@@kristianburys160 Eco with +4 exrta vils, but with 6-7 min delayed castle age eco upgrades, don't have better efficiency in relation to collected resources.
Overall goal of boom approach - is to give imp army with good timing. There is many ways to solve it, every player choose most comfortable buildorder for him.
To Hera's editor: I thought the blurred background was actually more distracting, it gave my tiny brain very little to focus on after taking in the text and zoning out easier when listening. Just my two cents! Love the video though! ❤
Edit: I noticed the blur was already replied to on another comment so nevermind me. :D
Good breakdown, appreciated
Great video. Though shift click did exist in AOC though.
At which elo would you recommend to switch to the faster builds? Do you recommend to learn all the basic BOs at the same time or one trick and master each individually?
Hey Hera thanks for this video, I've just cracked 1k using your older October Builds and was just thinking about this the other day. If I'm to take the maa-archers or straight archers build down a vill is there a particular resource change only keep the 4 on wood instead of sending a 5th or take a vill from food to be the 2nd gold miner once I click feudal?
Is it Hera or Spirit of the Law? 🤔
Great vid!!! Keep it up ;)
Thanks for the content. These videos make wanna play the game.
Great Video. Good Strategy topic
Hera, just one correction though. When you factor in double bit axe, considering the value of the tech increases with the number of vils on wood, that means there is deminision returns kinda thing on the population of dark age. In other words, for every additional dark age pop gained the value of all the previous dark age pop goes down.
If i am not maoing sense, then lets simply say double bit axe equals 4.88 wood per minute per villager. So wood lost by delaying the tech would be 4.88 multiplied by X where X is the number of "dark age villagers". So yhe higher X goes the more wood per minute is lost which is then reducing the value of the next dark age pop in a way.
Ty for this video. Sent it to my friends. Lol
Dear Hera, I know you probably are busy right now preparing for NAC 4 but afterwards would you mind to update your build orders?
I am still using the build orders you shared in the discord 2-3 Years ago and seeing this now I guess a 22pop Archer build has fallen out of fashion.
Thx in advance and for the great content, keep it up!
Interesting stuff! On a side note, all the blur in this video makes it difficult to watch. It's like a cataract simulation.
We will work on fixing the blur for next video!
Have had the opposite feeling at 1k elo.
Going up later gives me the res to do things instead of trying to rush the age ups. Especially delaying imp by spaming units and keeping pressure seems like the best way. Hit 1200 by playing a little more chill than trying to time the build perfectly and going up faster.
To be exact, going up at 22 to 24 pop with walling means I am able to hold and make more defensive army to defend and then push in feudal. It can snowball if I am able to get decent trades.(lol you just mentioned exactly this while I was trying).
@@battleforevermore Hera is talking about the cutting edge. Theoretically suboptimal strategies (that are easier to master in practice) can suffice (and be more convenient) for defeating sub-elite players.
can u do a video and show us a buildorder for 19/18 pop archers?
background noise is a bit stressful over the course of the video, ac i guess. but great video as always
As a Age of Mythology player who turned into a AoE2 player, it's funny watching AoE2 meta turn into the AoM meta
8:11 me trying to play without my glasses.
If you build a stable with 10 vills instead of 2, you save 25 seconds. This is more resource efficient than going up 1 pop earlier. (lose 50 vill seconds ~ 17 resources)
If you would have the vills around the tc and build the stable close, would this be good option?
(Probably just not practical in case of smoothness of your eco)
My math says you are losing 54s, plus way, way more in increased walking time. I can't see building a stable with more than 6-7 vils being good, the marginal value of another builder is just so low.
@@quakesquakes From what I heard another day, additional builders contribute with only 1/3 of the speed of the first one. And while building, they can neither walk anywhere nor extract resources.
@@EliasHasle What's your point?
@@quakesquakes That moving a worker from gathering a resource to assisting on a building project dramatically reduces their efficiency, even if only for a short while. I understand, however, that it may be of high priority to get started producing scouts, and I have not done the math to compare with any alternatives.
@@EliasHasle That's what I was saying, are you a bot?
Nice topic! I liked the discussion, but think the script was less developed than your usual... also too much shade in the image, feels kinda weird...
Just to contribute with the discussion, IMHO, the effect of dark age in endgame is even heavier to lower elo (Idle TC, Inefficient Builds, Far Gather, Housed... or the sum of those parts!) than pro players (that somehow can comeback from losing vils to MAA,).
What do u mean shade? Also i dont use a script when doing videos its all natural
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 as always you're wholesome to heart such feedback :).
By shade I mean the unfocused / obfuscated effect in the video... feels like I'm not wearing glasses, you know?
About the script, usually your "natural" have better flow, making it more enjoyable... and I say that not to be mean, as I love your content :)...
Hero please we need a complete guide how to know how many villager is enough for each resource in every age
Hey Hera, I think a lot of the time the luckier player has the better dark age though? Better map, find their sheep earlier etc, even laming is luck based.
as a 1600 i already struggled with affording DBA at 19 pop archers (mainly due to the wood cost, not the food cost). the more i try even faster builds, the more often i cant afford it right away and end up just forgetting it until i notice i dont have it when i try to get bowsaw in castle, and that just ends up hurting more than what the earlier uptime gains me. i still prefer slightly slower builds like 19 pop scouts, 20 pop archers or 22 pop m@a just to afford dba and some small walls and avoid idleing my tc more consistently. maybe i just try to do too much at once, i dont know.
19 pop scouts 「slightly slower build」 god dam lol
Double-bit axe pays back way faster than horse collar, so I would definitely recommend it even in fast up builds. The bonus is just huge, a 20% rate increase is like having an extra chopper per every 5. This upgrade typically pays back in under 5 minutes.
you dont get the issue, i WANT to grab it right away but dont have enough resources for it then, and by the time i do i have forgotten i did not actually get it.
Try to forgo the walls and not building house until you actually need it, maybe you'll be able to afford DBA right away, though it's kinda tricky since it could also be lumberjack innefficiency that held you back.
To me, the maps have changed a lot throughout the years. It's way easier to scout your sheep nowadays. The boar has changed to rino and elephants with more food. Lagless game makes it easier to lure boars, push deer, micro with TC.--
And many civs have eco bonus to sustain those builds.
Can you do a deep dive into hot keys?
I start to play the game 1 year ago, I was 800, i learned to old build order from french youtube Channel, like 21 pop scout rush, 22 pop archer rush etc ... Began to get rekt around 1050. Now I am 1200 but I had to learn these New build orders and the games are pretty intense.
Horse collar is a hard décision to make, the hardest part when you go early feudal is the lack of wood, so I understood that I needed to push deers to save wood for farms later, skip horse collar beginning of feudal age, and 1 lumber camp can be good if you need the wood early feudal
Idea for your channel. Pick a random player’s demo from discord once every 7-10days, make a video of it and point to good things, mistakes etc
I had to look up what META stood for. I keep hearing it in AOE2 videos but everyone expects you to understand all the acronyms they use. Most Efficient Tactic Available.
Yo hera I don't know if you have talked about this topic, but I find it very competitive when giving the ai 200% handicap, it's fun and challenging, can you please make a video about it and show us how to beat 200% powerful ai?
I just started playing 5 days ago. I appreciate the video. Any others that you would recommend for a noob? Videos that teach/explain how to start and move forward with upgrades etc? I find that I get real lost on upgrades and when to build army instead of only eco.
I cna make a video on exactly that! “When to make army and when to make eco”
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 Not knowing when to do what after Feudal age is why I just can't play well in my ELO range
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 I would for sure watch such a video. I have been trying to get my hotkey stuff figured out to be more efficient but I think what that has done is make it all more confusing for me because I'm pressuring myself to be quick without really understanding what I am doing lol. I played 1 ranked game so far (lost of course) and realized quickly I need to learn the basics first rather than worrying about super efficiency and hotkeys in terms of always queuing villagers and keeping them busy. I also need to utilize
way points or figure out how to que up tasks so I am not having to find the idle villager and then task them again.
Watch Survivalist's noob guide here on TH-cam. It's fantastic. Other than that, watching Hera and T90 vids in general always help
@@lugal-zage-si4782 Thanks, I'll check Survivalist out. I actually got interested in the game after youtube recommended a fatslob video that T90 made. Something about his playstyle was fun to watch. This was about 6 months ago and many many T90 video's later and I finally bought the game last week and quickly realized that playing and watching are completely different hahaha.
Hera, were you even born when daut was doing the classic 40 fishing ship dark age build? I think you missed how slow the old starts were.
Hera if you can answer this question please
Is it impossible to move up ranked by only playing one civ???
In fact is easier to gain elo by just one trick pony. Best example is Hoang with celts. With a solid BO executed over and over again you can get a lot of quick wins vs better overal players, but you will struggle on civs knowledgment and late game mechanics.
Edit: for that reason i consider the real elo is which you can maintain by playing random civs and a couple of maps consistently.
I just broke 1k by focusing and practising one build with one civ (maa archers Mayans). Now I'll probably swap to another to do the same with scouts and then transfer them to other civs
Math is a bit wrong.
Going up 1 vil later gives you 130 dark age villager seconds. That is worth about 50 wood. However double bit axe is also 25 seconds later which is worth (# of lumberjacks x 0.2 x 25) villager seconds. So with 8 lumberjacks for example the extra wood from earlier double bit is also about 15 wood.
All in going up 1 vil earlier costs 30-35 wood roughly.
Pushing 1 deer however is much more than that as it's already half a farm worth of food (30 wood) it also collects much faster than farm food. Collecting 115 food of a farm takes about 57 villager seconds longer than food of hunt which in turn is also another ~20 wood.
So basically 1 vil earlier costs 30-35 wood but pushing a deer is ~50 wood. Pushing all deer however can leave you a bit in the blind but if you do AND go super fast scouts or archers you are safe, you can pressure and you economy is better than someone who upped later and didnt get deer.
Another reason why the game becomes faster might be that unlike back then nowadays most civs have an early eco bonus to make fast uptimes work
A friend just like... Really let me down. And it's disheartening.
Some Hera helpful helps. Fuck yass thanks algorithm
Sorry to hear that, enjoy the video hope it helps!
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 tbh it did, and my girlfriend and I played some double 12 dominoes too that also helped
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 been watching more and more, I loved that funny moments vid the other day.
Your charisma is so passed 9000 Vegeta is chapped
I'd like to see a video on shortcuts, it's a very big topic I think, and I see pro players clicking things like crazy, I still drag my PC mouse one villager at a time lol
I understand the reason why u almost every game skips horse collar. However, I really think that u have to think more carefully about this decision in each particular game. Most games, farms without horse colar begin to expire right at the time u reach castle, and sometimes is a crucial window to have your farms working.
I saw many games that your lack of horse colar in feudal (and imperial without heavy plow), make your economy much weaker.
I undertand that if you lose in feudal, there is no Castle age lmao. But I think you have to check this trade-off more carefully according to the game situation.
Maybe you could hit him up via dm and ask if you could offer him a little coaching session, he sure can learn alot from you.
@@tupacshakur5868 ty, u can learn to be less stupid as well
I agree with that, its a more tricky decision than it seems
where are the 17pop build orders?
You don't need more economy. You just need enough to keep pumping.
To me the current meta is more like a real-time tactics game than a real-time strategy.
If I wanted to have to worry about microing military in the first few mins of playing I would play StarCraft that does that kind of thing better IMO.
Could also say this all comes from how oppressive archers are against almost everything at all stages of the game right now.
Back to Farmville for me I guess...
Why tf people crying about archers all the time :D They are military units - supposed to be oppresive :D They are low hp, cant do much against buildings, have a lot of different counters from various civs.
"Skipping horse collar" - angry Viper noises
And here I was thinking "going up with less than 26 vils is inefficient" holy cow.
Interesting talk but the blurry background make me feel i like I have to either fix my connection or my glasses :D
will fix for future videos
I literally get eye sores whilst playing aoe nowadays. Kinds feels you don't have time to blink anymore, lol. The skill level of the average joe on ranked is pretty strong
Very happy for the success of AoE though.
Agreed! Luckily stuff like campaigns and scenario editor is a great way to enjoy the game at a slower pace
while watching this I got ad of another medieval game, lol
How does the Archer player make an archery range without a barracks 1st? But all jokes aside, nice video!
By playing Khmer
Very nice video, but blurring of the video was pretty annoying.
My 15 minute fast feudal at 10 pop is unstoppable
Yea I came back to it yesterday and got creamed every time I was like, since when did people start being this good?