In Creation, Tsukuyomi and Susano-o (Aogami) being brothers didn't ammount to much more than a cool Nahobino form being a reflection of your own, because Koshimizu and Yuzuru were severely underdeveloped Chaos reps. In Vengeance, though? Yuzuru and Koshimizu are perfect reflections of protagonist and Aogami. Koshimizu and protagonist fusing to avenge the deaths of Yuzuru and Aogami is perfect thematically. They are the best characters this time, as you pointed out. Keep up the good videos, man!
Thank you! And yes the biggest strength of SMTVV is reconstructing the intriguing but undeveloped concepts from the original and as you said in your other comment, also keeping the original preserved through the canon of creation.
I actually like Dazai from a theoretical point of view, but falls short on execution in Vengeance. He is basically a loner because society only respects those who are productive (Tao and Yuzuru are either smart or popular). I would have adored seeing Yoko enticing him to destroy the world. But ofc a weak-minded character is always gonna seek easy power. Nobita from Doraemon is the basis of Dazai and, in that sense, he does a good job of it. However there are a million ways of doing this better, ofc. Amazing video, keep em coming
One thing i really like wbout Yoko is how when you exhaust all of her Demon Haunt dialogue throughout the game, you learn that she actually chilled out (beyond her core motives) because she went from a complete edgy loner to the person that cares enough about her companions to make the decision she does in Shinjuku's climax. It helps sell Yoko as a person, who while still edgy, isn’t completely unreasonable by the latter half. The only key flaw I can see with her (that leeps her from being the best character in the game) is just the lack of content from her post Shinjuku. If they added content for her leading up to the throne scene and they did show that more dullled yet resolute self (kinda there but not as much as it should) then I think that the chaos philosophy would've been sold to more people (most people think Law is objectively better when the point is that the throne is corrupted and Tao's future could lead to chaos/a new cycle).
Yes exactly, to be honest the extremism at the beginning isn’t something I really mind too much, the main issue is definitely the lack of screen time after the third area
I'm still not too sure how Yoko's path should ultimately work. You kinda return everything to the starting point before the Mandala system and bull gods endlessly overthrowing each other. What if another god of law decides to install the same system again? How is that different from Shiva burning the world and Brahma remaking it again?
HAYAO KOSHIMIZU IS THE GOAT!!! A point I want to say is rhat Koshimizu is fundementally different from Aogami in the sense that He has strong ideals whereas Aogami doesnt. Aogami doesnt have to put aside any ideals for the protag but koshimizu does. He has this whole vision of tokyo with the myriad gods and it was taken away from him. So instead of being a bitch and forcing the protag to his ideals, he accepts he is defeated and chooses to honour his brother. It shows that even though he has these strong ideals, his family ties and the true sake of humanity is much more important than his desires. He is truly selfless in this regard. What a goat
Finally! Finally someone who acknowledges Tsukuyomi! He's my favourite character from this game as well, he's great for the reasons you give. And I agree, his death scene was my least favourite part. I kinda saw it coming that he was going to die at the end, but the disrespect... Young man, that's your uncle that has protected you and saved your waifu, show some sadness at least! I was hoping to see the brothers having a moment, it was so disappointing that Aogami came back just as Tsukuyomi was gone. I do appreciate at least that Aogami says he was thankful to him in the Demon Haunt (and it's the only time he refers to him as his brother), but he deserved a better death scene. I hope that in a future game both Tsukuyomi and Susano'o get new Doi designs. Tsukuyomi hasn't appeared for a long time in the series, I was happy with him as a character but I want him to be playable as well. At least, I was very happy with his portion and his fusion, he was really cool and deserved better.
The ultimate version of this campaign/story would be a mix between Creation and Vengeance. Keep the main plot of Vengeance but don't get rid of the Bethel political plot and give Dazai more time to naturally develop. It's good that they kept Creation in the rerelease as I think it's necessary to play both campaigns to get a fuller picture.
No it wouldn’t… Like, we literally have over a decade of Atlus re-releases where people thought most, if not all of the new story content was tacked-on, or “forced”, or at the very least, felt kinda weird. It’s probably why Atlus decided to make this two separate story routes, to just make a new story instead of forcefully cramming it in the old one.
the Bethel meeting may have still been in Vengeance, if the Quadistu didnt show up to cause trouble. i can see how merging the two stories would benefit both or not.
@@Kisaru1000stg every time Atlus re-releases a game people complain nonstop about the new story content clashing with the original. Now they decide to split the two to keep the original in tact and people still complain. these people are never happy.
I mean that IS ultimately what Law represents in the game. The sidequests are pretty blatant about this with numerous Law sides whether it’s Apsaras or Kresnik talking about how the strong determine what is Law and inequality is good! Vengeance basically cuts out the illusion that faith in God isn’t meant to be anything more than Dazai and Abdiel saying they want the strong(God) to oppress the weak, and Demon Haunt Fallen Abdiel herself makes clear how much her devotion to God is built on seeing him as the strongest.
Also it's true that Vengeance really pulled the rug under Dazai and Abdiel, I played vengeance first so I didn't understood anything about them, but CoC makes their relationship so much better I kind of disagree on the criticism of Dazai, two big flaws he has are: 1. He is weak and wants power 2. He wants someone else to make decisions for him So the fact that Mastema offers both, it makes total sense that Dazai would fully accept without question him or thinking about another solution on his own
I agree that Yoko and Tao are on the same level, I might be more inclined to put Yoko over Tao just because I feel like her ideals made more sense within the story but whatever. I do agree that Koshimizu is the best character and that his death did little outside of being cutesy fanservice (and almighty/phys being canon).
My top 3 in no particular order: Yuzuru Tao Koshimizu I personally think the protag ( kei amemura) was better than base smtV due to them giving him 2 new emotions: Sad and revenge (He’s emotionless in base V)
I think Dazai for example was somehow worse but better His motivation for his crash out makes sense Because of the manipulation from Mastema But it almost happens so immediately And it’s like Dazai didn’t even really get a chance to process that. It also makes you wonder if he was always a douchebag in the first place or was it really brainwash? OR just a push in the right direction of something he always believed.
The justification for the heel turn was better for sure, but as I mentioned in the video I think any type of subtlety or build up for him going edgelord mode would do wonders for making his progression more understandable.
I think Dazai's turn has a subtlety to it that isn't noticeable. When Yuzuru begrudgingly accepts that Miyazu stays with Khonsu, Dazai is clearly disappointed by that outcome. I feel this is the point he becomes disillusioned with the main group and starts becoming more overtly hungry for power (and a strong authority figure to steer him) . That's how I perceive Dazai's character arc and it makes Dazai a bit more compelling to me this time
A thing which i always questioned in the SMT series as a whole is that you cannot use recarm or anything of the sort on humans or atleast not when they are dead only when they are unconscious as in persona. So considering Tao's first death i had the theory/headcanon she used enduring soul but as that is neither confirmed or denied or i missed such a crucial point i just wanted to state my theory. :)
Yeah video games for the most part has an underlying rule where if you die during gameplay you can heal yourself, but if it's in a cutscene you are in trouble lol
Goko is such a non entity, I'd even rank Nahobeeho and Amanozako higher than him as a character. I'm very pleased Vengeance fleshed out a lot of the characters more (esp the Atsuta siblings who sorely needed it) but I feel like whatever they were doing with Goko was just...not it. That might be a byproduct of just having a larger cast overall.
I have very conflicting feelings on Dazai as a character. I think he had the potential to be one of the best law reps of the series, and I'm not joking. I could really get behind his need to prove himself, his lament over his lack of strength or ability to please the people around him, and the need to see the world in black and white since he can't navigate gray situations in his life. It's something that I could relate too, honestly. Given what we know of his background, someone whose parents are divided and he can't please them both, while also being in an affluent background so either people don't stick around in his life or those who befriended him only did so to improve their own position in life, the pieces are all set for an intriguing character with a unique view on Law. He's like a more active, younger version of Yuko Takao from Nocturne, atleast in mindset. Someone who sees himself as weak, but who thinks that a higher power is what the world needs to restore balance. And to a certain extent, Vengeance improved his character. He was less insufferable as stated, and tried to act supportive for Yuzuru when Miyazu was kidnapped by Khonsu. And he acted in his friends defense when Khonsu talked mad shit to Yuzuru. I stated this once in the comments section of a fanfic, but I have an alternative idea in mind for Dazai's character development post-meeting Mastema, that I think would've more aligned with the fact that he was friends with the cast more. Because genuinely, up until he meets Mastema, his character was elevated. But after being Mastema-pilled, his character takes a nosedive and it is so sad to see. Ichiro Dazai could've become the Johnathan of the current generation of SMT. And the fact that he won't get another chance at a rewrite like this again means he never will. What a damn shame.
i would put CoC (Original V) Dazai little bit below Zayin from SMT II as character. because both Law Rep does have conviction after facing harsh reality instead of being Pacifict or simply Mary Sue/Gary Stu character who went brainwashed.
@@Light_yagami1996 I agree with that assertion. Forgive me, I don’t really know anything about SMT 1 & 2, nor strange journey. My understanding of the series began at nocturne and went from there
@@kaptainsalty7335 it's okay., to sum it up: Basically the Law Heroes in SJ and 1 similar to Jonathan. meanwhile Zayin from SMT II, kinda have similarity with Abdiel and Dazai in CoC meanwhile Hikawa is kinda like mixed with the other Law Rep Archetype.
I think it's kind of important to mention about Goko that him casually dropping at the end of either route that he is Amitabha is a ridiculous thing. In his introduction in both routes, he says "May we meet again under the Buddha's gaze", or at least something to that effect, then reveals only at the very end that the Buddha he was referring to was himself, he is one of the five wisdom Buddhas. Not only is he meant to be a character who according to his religious counterpart is meant to bring pure wisdom, longevity and eternity to his followers, he is also meant to be represent emptiness in desire among these things delivered. All this is not to say that Goko is somehow a good character, he continues to be the strict absolute zero that he was despite this, this just shows that they had an absolutely stellar idea on how to build Goko as a character even in Creation, kept that in Vengeance and did nothing with it twice. Insane amounts of wasted potential, and let's not talk about how very clearly the new Chaos route attempted to make you believe he was going to become the final boss, only for him to just fuck off forever and for you to have to meaninglessly fight Lucifer. This has been one of my biggest complaints about characterization since I finished Vengeance, honestly. Anyways, great video, hope your work gets more recognition soon, bless up, homie.
I never understood really what they were going with Sahori?, to some degree she could be someone that reps Caos but story wise it just feels like a "bully victim" character that has to appear because the protagonist is in highschool, at least Tao got better character development in Vengance thanks to her little arc
I think SMT shines best when you have a smaller cast, if you look at SMT I and IV, the main cast is literally four people, the player character, law hero, chaos hero, and the heroine, whereas in this game the main cast is protag, Aogami, Ichiro, Abdiel, Tao, Yoko, Yuzuru, Koshimizu, and Miyazu, though there are some things which I would absolutely love to see happen again, like the Yuzuru fight, I really liked that in the Devil Summoner games (that I've played) and SMT I you had summoner fights and I would love to see more of those happen in the future
As someone who sometimes likes playing Law Route but overall prefers going for True Neutral/True ending, Mastema genuinely made me hate Law reps SOOOO much this time around. 😭 Law mfs will literally do anything to get their way no matter how delusional it is. (Extra press turns and Great Lament go brrrrr) 💀
Agreed, Koshimizu got a great time in Vengeance, it was a shame how he went out in the aftermath of the Tiamat battle, but the Tsukuyomi Nahobino form was miles better than Aogami's (which is good too), if only they have given him a better send-off he would have been the perfect no.1 on the list, it is what it is but he clearely shines over the rest of the cast... having Yuzuru Atsuta as the runner up is accurate as well, as while he also got a (somewhat) crappy send off, he really make us get that Vengeance feeling when we deal with Dazai near the end of the game as we are doing it not only from the "Young Man's" POV, but also Koshimizu, and I think that doubles if you go for Vengeance Chaos due to... beating the wings of Mastema (or whatever you want to say about that) I guess. With Canon of Creation (AKA: Vanilla SMTV) I felt that those two in particular were like a last minute addition due to how little they do for the story and all, like... forgetable, but Vengeance did flip those two to pretty much be (aside of Yoko due to being the new character pretty much... excluding Demons like the Qüadistu and Mastema) the ones to shine the most and also delivering the feeling for the desire of Vengeance that the story theme is pretty much the focus.
I don't have an issue with Aogami coming back on the Law path. I do have an issue with it on the Chaos path. Aogami reconstituting himself from within Tiamat after she proves unkillable due to mythology reasons and giving us a cool scene, that's fine. Koshimizu sacrificing himself to save Tao and being satisfied now that he's avenged Yuzuru and protected his brother's knowledge, allowing you to fulfill his and Yuzuru's desire for a better world, that's also fine. What isn't fine is that the fight with Tiamat has no reason to happen when you're siding with Yoko. Tao and Goko were right there to team on you instead. Just have Mastema throw his hissy fit and then have them go after you as a last-ditch effort to maintain the system. Then Koshimizu gets to stay, Goko actually does something, both routes have unique end bosses, and Mastema's ability to just take control of Tiamat away from Yoko doesn't open a line of questions that just destroy the whole story.
i still think they could have done much more with miyazu, it kinda still feels a bit empty. And they DEFINITELY should have done more with sahori, like COME ON, she was the perfect candidate for a new chaos rep, not to mention this game has VENGEANCE in the title, aka the thing she wanted most in the original smt v😭, but i guess atlus had to cut corners just to add the obligatory re-release girl somehow
[WARNING: Long-ass comment ahead. I don't know how many people agree with me on this, but it's something I personally feel.] As a Law advocate, it pains me to witness how Dazai was once again made into the most unlikeable, shitty person you'll meet in the entire game. He's a bumbling idiot that, whilst it makes for some funny moments, can be annoying when it comes to applying logic in scenarios where the answer is very clear (you touched on this with how he disregards what Mastema did to him). Then almost out of nowhere, he becomes a comical edgelord who thinks he's hot shit, intoxicated by his power and what he plans to do with it (don't even get me started on his wannabe Vergil slick-back hair that makes him look like a goddamn goblin). I truly think that one of the biggest things I hated about Dazai's sudden edgelord mode was how it made him treat Atsuta like a total piece of dirt in his final moments. He goes from a bumbling idiot who at least has his friends to help him, just as he'll help them, to a zealot who entirely discards the friendships he made and the respect for other people, just because they don't align with his beliefs. I'd like to imagine that instead of changing into that comical edgelord, Dazai could have progressively became a calmer, more calculated representative overtime. Becoming more focused on God's Law, attentive of what happens to/around him, and an overall much more grounded character. It would give him a compelling transformation arc, and would probably help improve the final scene with Atsuta in it as well. I'd like to imagine that this newer Dazai would treat Atsuta with respect in his final moments. Despite their views clashing, Atsuta's mindset would be something that he ultimately sees as something that makes Atsuta worthy friend and adversary, rather than filth. Furthermore, he could also be reminiscing on the friendship they had, maybe trying to plead with Atsuta and make him see that he still has a place in God's world if he abandons his wishes to become a Nahobino. Ultimately, Atsuta refuses, and Dazai (or Abdiel, I guess-) does kill him, but that respect is still held towards the very end. I'm sick of the extreme zealotry many Law reps have by the end of their respective SMT games, instead of being open-armed and more willing to assist others in seeing the lawful path. ATLUS always has a habit of making Law the least likeable and/or agreeable side that only a few of us can align with, and it hurts.
i know this is probably not it but i feel the reason they brought aogami back, aswell as certain other things in vengence, might have been because they wanted to reuse cutscenes of course this only is a factor if the cutscenes and the credits arent made in engine. if they are in engine then this point is mute. but if it is actual cutscenes then i can see them bringing back aogami just so they dont have to redo credits again.
One of the things that always bother me is how everyone says dazai was done worst when he was done exponentionally better, he actually shows more of a personality in vengeance than what he did in vanilla, and saying his turn to heel was an asspull is just disingenuous, is like no one ever stops to read dialogue and want the game to spoon feed you the information with some cutscene, like it's too much work to actually read, so i'm just gonna explain it, in smt1 the demon summoning program is created, one of the downsides to it, is that weak minded individuals can easily get influenced and start acting more like demons, you know, like a certain someone, but wait, this is an obscure fact about smt1, a game that is old as hell, how should we know about that connection, well, you dont need to, because this is something aogami literally tells you at the school portion of the story, but that doesnt explain why dazai became such an cartoonishly evil character, but no, it does, because who gave powers to dazai? mastema, what is mastema main fucking power, controlling demons, what happens with weak minded individuals, yeah they start acting more like demons, mastema literally controls demons, is not just dazai being done badly, I keep telling people this, you guys don't read, you all allergic to words, but basically that's the point. Now koshimizu, you're definetely over exaggerating his character arc and his value, is it true that he has the most interesting background, absolutely, does he has the best scene in the game, yes, he does, but the value in the story while extremely good, it does not reflect his character growth, I enjoy his changed in tune, which align more to one of regret for being unable to protect yuzuru, but he hardly had any sustantial value in between the good scenes, that while yes, where really good, but still fail to get anything else going, his best scenes being fusing with the mc, the konsu part and him dying, of course the theme of him discarding his own agenda was an important step, but it didn't felt that important, I still like that know he acts as the agent of revenge, but he does little to convey that feeling, this is why I cannot give him that full number 1, I do believe he was done much better than the original for sure, but had he had more agency on the theme of revenge, as in, constantly being affected and consume by revenge for yuzuru and aogami, he would have earn that spot, instead giving up and being a protector, which is also good, and good is great but why not aim for greater. My issue with a lot of people saying yoko is extremist and all, and that is hard to take her seriously, I get that, but that circles back to my point on dazai, people are allergic to reading, like I swear, is like everyone forgot that the mc set her soul free in the paths of time, which believe it or not is an important part of the entire smt lore, because wouldnt you know it, the mc is capable of trancending time itself, he can literally reborn into new times and liberate them from the mandala system on the route he chooses, and again, yoko is a being that was seal for who knows how, it only makes sense for her to be kind of insane when it comes to her ideals, her design is a little bit bland and simple, she is makes the most sense when it comes to how the lore presented her.
Meh, I'd say SMTV/VV should be treated just as amazing entry gameplay/graphic/music-wise, plot should be discarded altogether as it's just pathetic and painful to seriously consider. All characters are empty shells, robots have much more to say than humans, ones that should be most important lore-wise (law/chaos/neutral) propagate literally kindergarten-level ideologies. In all honesty, Naho-bee-ho should be #1. Amanozako #2, Muu Shuwuu #3, Jack Bros who stole apple #4 and #5.
Dazai is the only good character in CoC (Original and/or didn't Yoko's hand). sure it has a few plot hole such as sudden powerup but the characterization of him is Organic. Dazai himself were always bullied for being a Half-White in School. He also always see his parent quarrel. having no guidance in life turns him into a clown wimp. Meeting with Abdiel who were strict and confident made Dazai admire her, and become a parental figure to him. seeing Abdiel lost against the MC in the summit, with addition that the fact Dazai is Abdiell's knowledge and she refuse to become a Nahobino brokes him down. Dazai throwing off his hat and turned into cheesy Edgelord Vergil wannabe is the result of his own resolve and his purpose of life. Hence, he was able to convince and influence the strict and menacing abdiel to become a Nahobino. breaking one law to execute Order. Making Abdiel turned into a fallen angel just for them to become a Nahobino is also the influence came from Dazai's resolve. He's also not wrong with letting the pantheon deities reign over humans only result with endless war seeing how Odin, and Especially Shiva (seeing him as the India branch leader is a superboss) won't play nice to each other. those "deities" will only ended up eating each other. the Chaos CoC ending is exactly happening as what Dazai said. Meanwhile CoV dazai simply trust Mastema. it make sense for the powerup, but has 0 characterization. he's suddenly becoming Mastema's lapdog and hunt down people who try to become a Nahobino. it butchered his character and he become more insufferable. In addition, Abdiel also somehow turned fallen out of nowhere. CoV Dazai also looked like a traditional chaos hero in various SMT games where they were started to feel weak and went on power trip turning into a social darwinist and saying executing God's law is just an excuse. CoC Dazai has a sense of justice but he just felt incompetent, abdiel gave a guidance that keeping your faith firmly. later believe the power of becoming Nahobino is only a tool and requirement to execute God's law. He's more fixated with defying the God's will to enforce His law will rather than just saying "wE NeEd PoWeR tO ExEcUTe oRDeR". Fun fact, Stuart Allen (Dazai's VA) is also voicing Damian Wayne in DC Animated Movie Universe. that kid is good on voicing a prick characrter. Good Video btw :)
Yeah i really hated that Vengeance didnt commit to its theme, like I am sorry but Tsukuyomi Nahobino is way cooler than Susano-o Nahobino, I was so tired of the Blue Long hair look but that could probably be because I had SMT V on the switch back on release. wow 11 years of shit characters, like seriously? If that's the case then that means SMT IV and Apocalypse doesn't have good characters or cast? Because I really liked Isabeu, Walter, Jonathan and surprisingly enough I don't hate Apocalypse CAST and I am playing that game THIS YEAR (In the final dungeon at the moment) the only character I don't like all that much is Nozomi.
i think Tao and Yoko both have Amaterasu, given Tao has the crown while Yoko has the mirror in their panagia forms. a small scene in the CoV has Koshimitsu mention her as the camera points to Tao.
yogoat at 4? omagotoki charge, omagotoki succesion, 7 press turn paraselene blur on you!! personally I would put dazai higher, yoko on number 1. Yuzuru imo is such a nothing burger I would put him at like 15
I love Yoko. She's probably my favorite Chaos rep because of how unintentionally funny she can get. She says the most extreme shit that instead of coming off as offensive, it's just hilariously dark.
In Creation, Tsukuyomi and Susano-o (Aogami) being brothers didn't ammount to much more than a cool Nahobino form being a reflection of your own, because Koshimizu and Yuzuru were severely underdeveloped Chaos reps.
In Vengeance, though? Yuzuru and Koshimizu are perfect reflections of protagonist and Aogami. Koshimizu and protagonist fusing to avenge the deaths of Yuzuru and Aogami is perfect thematically.
They are the best characters this time, as you pointed out. Keep up the good videos, man!
Thank you! And yes the biggest strength of SMTVV is reconstructing the intriguing but undeveloped concepts from the original and as you said in your other comment, also keeping the original preserved through the canon of creation.
I am so glad someone likes Koshimizu as much as I do, I didnt care about him in vanilla v, but he is easily my top 3 characters in megaten now
yes!!! koshimizu fans unite
I actually like Dazai from a theoretical point of view, but falls short on execution in Vengeance. He is basically a loner because society only respects those who are productive (Tao and Yuzuru are either smart or popular). I would have adored seeing Yoko enticing him to destroy the world. But ofc a weak-minded character is always gonna seek easy power. Nobita from Doraemon is the basis of Dazai and, in that sense, he does a good job of it. However there are a million ways of doing this better, ofc. Amazing video, keep em coming
One thing i really like wbout Yoko is how when you exhaust all of her Demon Haunt dialogue throughout the game, you learn that she actually chilled out (beyond her core motives) because she went from a complete edgy loner to the person that cares enough about her companions to make the decision she does in Shinjuku's climax.
It helps sell Yoko as a person, who while still edgy, isn’t completely unreasonable by the latter half.
The only key flaw I can see with her (that leeps her from being the best character in the game) is just the lack of content from her post Shinjuku.
If they added content for her leading up to the throne scene and they did show that more dullled yet resolute self (kinda there but not as much as it should) then I think that the chaos philosophy would've been sold to more people (most people think Law is objectively better when the point is that the throne is corrupted and Tao's future could lead to chaos/a new cycle).
Yes exactly, to be honest the extremism at the beginning isn’t something I really mind too much, the main issue is definitely the lack of screen time after the third area
I'm still not too sure how Yoko's path should ultimately work. You kinda return everything to the starting point before the Mandala system and bull gods endlessly overthrowing each other. What if another god of law decides to install the same system again? How is that different from Shiva burning the world and Brahma remaking it again?
HAYAO KOSHIMIZU IS THE GOAT!!! A point I want to say is rhat Koshimizu is fundementally different from Aogami in the sense that He has strong ideals whereas Aogami doesnt. Aogami doesnt have to put aside any ideals for the protag but koshimizu does. He has this whole vision of tokyo with the myriad gods and it was taken away from him. So instead of being a bitch and forcing the protag to his ideals, he accepts he is defeated and chooses to honour his brother. It shows that even though he has these strong ideals, his family ties and the true sake of humanity is much more important than his desires. He is truly selfless in this regard. What a goat
Finally! Finally someone who acknowledges Tsukuyomi! He's my favourite character from this game as well, he's great for the reasons you give. And I agree, his death scene was my least favourite part. I kinda saw it coming that he was going to die at the end, but the disrespect... Young man, that's your uncle that has protected you and saved your waifu, show some sadness at least!
I was hoping to see the brothers having a moment, it was so disappointing that Aogami came back just as Tsukuyomi was gone. I do appreciate at least that Aogami says he was thankful to him in the Demon Haunt (and it's the only time he refers to him as his brother), but he deserved a better death scene.
I hope that in a future game both Tsukuyomi and Susano'o get new Doi designs. Tsukuyomi hasn't appeared for a long time in the series, I was happy with him as a character but I want him to be playable as well. At least, I was very happy with his portion and his fusion, he was really cool and deserved better.
The ultimate version of this campaign/story would be a mix between Creation and Vengeance. Keep the main plot of Vengeance but don't get rid of the Bethel political plot and give Dazai more time to naturally develop. It's good that they kept Creation in the rerelease as I think it's necessary to play both campaigns to get a fuller picture.
No it wouldn’t… Like, we literally have over a decade of Atlus re-releases where people thought most, if not all of the new story content was tacked-on, or “forced”, or at the very least, felt kinda weird. It’s probably why Atlus decided to make this two separate story routes, to just make a new story instead of forcefully cramming it in the old one.
the Bethel meeting may have still been in Vengeance, if the Quadistu didnt show up to cause trouble.
i can see how merging the two stories would benefit both or not.
@@Kisaru1000stg every time Atlus re-releases a game people complain nonstop about the new story content clashing with the original. Now they decide to split the two to keep the original in tact and people still complain. these people are never happy.
I'd prefer a Mastema fight in regular neutral Canon of Creation, given that you're rejecting the Great Will, like in Canon of Vengeance Chaos.
@@DarkAdonisVyers I think your also reject the great will and Mandala system in true neutral.
I mean that IS ultimately what Law represents in the game. The sidequests are pretty blatant about this with numerous Law sides whether it’s Apsaras or Kresnik talking about how the strong determine what is Law and inequality is good!
Vengeance basically cuts out the illusion that faith in God isn’t meant to be anything more than Dazai and Abdiel saying they want the strong(God) to oppress the weak, and Demon Haunt Fallen Abdiel herself makes clear how much her devotion to God is built on seeing him as the strongest.
But you also have Tao who encourages you to get strong to help the weak
25:11 would love to see the full video about this. the topic of SH2's quality is so interesting to me and i have no clue why
your videos are very well done and informative
you deserve more recognition
Thank you!
Also it's true that Vengeance really pulled the rug under Dazai and Abdiel, I played vengeance first so I didn't understood anything about them, but CoC makes their relationship so much better
I kind of disagree on the criticism of Dazai, two big flaws he has are:
1. He is weak and wants power
2. He wants someone else to make decisions for him
So the fact that Mastema offers both, it makes total sense that Dazai would fully accept without question him or thinking about another solution on his own
I agree that Yoko and Tao are on the same level, I might be more inclined to put Yoko over Tao just because I feel like her ideals made more sense within the story but whatever. I do agree that Koshimizu is the best character and that his death did little outside of being cutesy fanservice (and almighty/phys being canon).
thank you for shining a spotlight on my boy koshimizu
Seriously tho, who invited Goko? Bro thinks he’s on the team 🤣
My top 3 in no particular order:
Yuzuru
Tao
Koshimizu
I personally think the protag ( kei amemura) was better than base smtV due to them giving him 2 new emotions: Sad and revenge (He’s emotionless in base V)
I think Dazai for example was somehow worse but better
His motivation for his crash out makes sense
Because of the manipulation from Mastema
But it almost happens so immediately
And it’s like Dazai didn’t even really get a chance to process that.
It also makes you wonder if he was always a douchebag in the first place or was it really brainwash?
OR just a push in the right direction of something he always believed.
The justification for the heel turn was better for sure, but as I mentioned in the video I think any type of subtlety or build up for him going edgelord mode would do wonders for making his progression more understandable.
power tripping. he become the Chaos rep with executing Law as an Excuse. and our trustworthy angel made it worse.
I think Dazai's turn has a subtlety to it that isn't noticeable. When Yuzuru begrudgingly accepts that Miyazu stays with Khonsu, Dazai is clearly disappointed by that outcome. I feel this is the point he becomes disillusioned with the main group and starts becoming more overtly hungry for power (and a strong authority figure to steer him) . That's how I perceive Dazai's character arc and it makes Dazai a bit more compelling to me this time
This was great. Im sad regarding Dazai for sure.
A thing which i always questioned in the SMT series as a whole is that you cannot use recarm or anything of the sort on humans or atleast not when they are dead only when they are unconscious as in persona.
So considering Tao's first death i had the theory/headcanon she used enduring soul but as that is neither confirmed or denied or i missed such a crucial point i just wanted to state my theory. :)
Yeah video games for the most part has an underlying rule where if you die during gameplay you can heal yourself, but if it's in a cutscene you are in trouble lol
Goko is such a non entity, I'd even rank Nahobeeho and Amanozako higher than him as a character. I'm very pleased Vengeance fleshed out a lot of the characters more (esp the Atsuta siblings who sorely needed it) but I feel like whatever they were doing with Goko was just...not it. That might be a byproduct of just having a larger cast overall.
Hsahahsah happy to see someone else consider Nahobeeho more developed than main cast chars XDDD
I have very conflicting feelings on Dazai as a character. I think he had the potential to be one of the best law reps of the series, and I'm not joking. I could really get behind his need to prove himself, his lament over his lack of strength or ability to please the people around him, and the need to see the world in black and white since he can't navigate gray situations in his life. It's something that I could relate too, honestly. Given what we know of his background, someone whose parents are divided and he can't please them both, while also being in an affluent background so either people don't stick around in his life or those who befriended him only did so to improve their own position in life, the pieces are all set for an intriguing character with a unique view on Law. He's like a more active, younger version of Yuko Takao from Nocturne, atleast in mindset. Someone who sees himself as weak, but who thinks that a higher power is what the world needs to restore balance.
And to a certain extent, Vengeance improved his character. He was less insufferable as stated, and tried to act supportive for Yuzuru when Miyazu was kidnapped by Khonsu. And he acted in his friends defense when Khonsu talked mad shit to Yuzuru.
I stated this once in the comments section of a fanfic, but I have an alternative idea in mind for Dazai's character development post-meeting Mastema, that I think would've more aligned with the fact that he was friends with the cast more. Because genuinely, up until he meets Mastema, his character was elevated. But after being Mastema-pilled, his character takes a nosedive and it is so sad to see.
Ichiro Dazai could've become the Johnathan of the current generation of SMT. And the fact that he won't get another chance at a rewrite like this again means he never will. What a damn shame.
i would put CoC (Original V) Dazai little bit below Zayin from SMT II as character. because both Law Rep does have conviction after facing harsh reality instead of being Pacifict or simply Mary Sue/Gary Stu character who went brainwashed.
@@Light_yagami1996 I agree with that assertion. Forgive me, I don’t really know anything about SMT 1 & 2, nor strange journey. My understanding of the series began at nocturne and went from there
@@kaptainsalty7335 it's okay., to sum it up:
Basically the Law Heroes in SJ and 1 similar to Jonathan.
meanwhile Zayin from SMT II, kinda have similarity with Abdiel and Dazai in CoC
meanwhile Hikawa is kinda like mixed with the other Law Rep Archetype.
I think it's kind of important to mention about Goko that him casually dropping at the end of either route that he is Amitabha is a ridiculous thing. In his introduction in both routes, he says "May we meet again under the Buddha's gaze", or at least something to that effect, then reveals only at the very end that the Buddha he was referring to was himself, he is one of the five wisdom Buddhas. Not only is he meant to be a character who according to his religious counterpart is meant to bring pure wisdom, longevity and eternity to his followers, he is also meant to be represent emptiness in desire among these things delivered.
All this is not to say that Goko is somehow a good character, he continues to be the strict absolute zero that he was despite this, this just shows that they had an absolutely stellar idea on how to build Goko as a character even in Creation, kept that in Vengeance and did nothing with it twice. Insane amounts of wasted potential, and let's not talk about how very clearly the new Chaos route attempted to make you believe he was going to become the final boss, only for him to just fuck off forever and for you to have to meaninglessly fight Lucifer.
This has been one of my biggest complaints about characterization since I finished Vengeance, honestly. Anyways, great video, hope your work gets more recognition soon, bless up, homie.
I never understood really what they were going with Sahori?, to some degree she could be someone that reps Caos but story wise it just feels like a "bully victim" character that has to appear because the protagonist is in highschool, at least Tao got better character development in Vengance thanks to her little arc
I think SMT shines best when you have a smaller cast, if you look at SMT I and IV, the main cast is literally four people, the player character, law hero, chaos hero, and the heroine, whereas in this game the main cast is protag, Aogami, Ichiro, Abdiel, Tao, Yoko, Yuzuru, Koshimizu, and Miyazu, though there are some things which I would absolutely love to see happen again, like the Yuzuru fight, I really liked that in the Devil Summoner games (that I've played) and SMT I you had summoner fights and I would love to see more of those happen in the future
I don’t know if anyone has said it yet but the protagonist has the default name of “Kei Amemura” in the international release. Also Shounen
As someone who sometimes likes playing Law Route but overall prefers going for True Neutral/True ending, Mastema genuinely made me hate Law reps SOOOO much this time around. 😭
Law mfs will literally do anything to get their way no matter how delusional it is. (Extra press turns and Great Lament go brrrrr) 💀
I'm looking forward to your comparison of the characters from In Search of Lost Time.
Agreed, Koshimizu got a great time in Vengeance, it was a shame how he went out in the aftermath of the Tiamat battle, but the Tsukuyomi Nahobino form was miles better than Aogami's (which is good too), if only they have given him a better send-off he would have been the perfect no.1 on the list, it is what it is but he clearely shines over the rest of the cast... having Yuzuru Atsuta as the runner up is accurate as well, as while he also got a (somewhat) crappy send off, he really make us get that Vengeance feeling when we deal with Dazai near the end of the game as we are doing it not only from the "Young Man's" POV, but also Koshimizu, and I think that doubles if you go for Vengeance Chaos due to... beating the wings of Mastema (or whatever you want to say about that) I guess.
With Canon of Creation (AKA: Vanilla SMTV) I felt that those two in particular were like a last minute addition due to how little they do for the story and all, like... forgetable, but Vengeance did flip those two to pretty much be (aside of Yoko due to being the new character pretty much... excluding Demons like the Qüadistu and Mastema) the ones to shine the most and also delivering the feeling for the desire of Vengeance that the story theme is pretty much the focus.
I don't have an issue with Aogami coming back on the Law path. I do have an issue with it on the Chaos path.
Aogami reconstituting himself from within Tiamat after she proves unkillable due to mythology reasons and giving us a cool scene, that's fine. Koshimizu sacrificing himself to save Tao and being satisfied now that he's avenged Yuzuru and protected his brother's knowledge, allowing you to fulfill his and Yuzuru's desire for a better world, that's also fine.
What isn't fine is that the fight with Tiamat has no reason to happen when you're siding with Yoko. Tao and Goko were right there to team on you instead. Just have Mastema throw his hissy fit and then have them go after you as a last-ditch effort to maintain the system. Then Koshimizu gets to stay, Goko actually does something, both routes have unique end bosses, and Mastema's ability to just take control of Tiamat away from Yoko doesn't open a line of questions that just destroy the whole story.
YOUNG MAN
i still think they could have done much more with miyazu, it kinda still feels a bit empty. And they DEFINITELY should have done more with sahori, like COME ON, she was the perfect candidate for a new chaos rep, not to mention this game has VENGEANCE in the title, aka the thing she wanted most in the original smt v😭, but i guess atlus had to cut corners just to add the obligatory re-release girl somehow
[WARNING: Long-ass comment ahead. I don't know how many people agree with me on this, but it's something I personally feel.]
As a Law advocate, it pains me to witness how Dazai was once again made into the most unlikeable, shitty person you'll meet in the entire game. He's a bumbling idiot that, whilst it makes for some funny moments, can be annoying when it comes to applying logic in scenarios where the answer is very clear (you touched on this with how he disregards what Mastema did to him). Then almost out of nowhere, he becomes a comical edgelord who thinks he's hot shit, intoxicated by his power and what he plans to do with it (don't even get me started on his wannabe Vergil slick-back hair that makes him look like a goddamn goblin).
I truly think that one of the biggest things I hated about Dazai's sudden edgelord mode was how it made him treat Atsuta like a total piece of dirt in his final moments. He goes from a bumbling idiot who at least has his friends to help him, just as he'll help them, to a zealot who entirely discards the friendships he made and the respect for other people, just because they don't align with his beliefs.
I'd like to imagine that instead of changing into that comical edgelord, Dazai could have progressively became a calmer, more calculated representative overtime. Becoming more focused on God's Law, attentive of what happens to/around him, and an overall much more grounded character. It would give him a compelling transformation arc, and would probably help improve the final scene with Atsuta in it as well.
I'd like to imagine that this newer Dazai would treat Atsuta with respect in his final moments. Despite their views clashing, Atsuta's mindset would be something that he ultimately sees as something that makes Atsuta worthy friend and adversary, rather than filth. Furthermore, he could also be reminiscing on the friendship they had, maybe trying to plead with Atsuta and make him see that he still has a place in God's world if he abandons his wishes to become a Nahobino. Ultimately, Atsuta refuses, and Dazai (or Abdiel, I guess-) does kill him, but that respect is still held towards the very end.
I'm sick of the extreme zealotry many Law reps have by the end of their respective SMT games, instead of being open-armed and more willing to assist others in seeing the lawful path. ATLUS always has a habit of making Law the least likeable and/or agreeable side that only a few of us can align with, and it hurts.
i know this is probably not it but i feel the reason they brought aogami back, aswell as certain other things in vengence, might have been because they wanted to reuse cutscenes
of course this only is a factor if the cutscenes and the credits arent made in engine. if they are in engine then this point is mute.
but if it is actual cutscenes then i can see them bringing back aogami just so they dont have to redo credits again.
One of the things that always bother me is how everyone says dazai was done worst when he was done exponentionally better, he actually shows more of a personality in vengeance than what he did in vanilla, and saying his turn to heel was an asspull is just disingenuous, is like no one ever stops to read dialogue and want the game to spoon feed you the information with some cutscene, like it's too much work to actually read, so i'm just gonna explain it, in smt1 the demon summoning program is created, one of the downsides to it, is that weak minded individuals can easily get influenced and start acting more like demons, you know, like a certain someone, but wait, this is an obscure fact about smt1, a game that is old as hell, how should we know about that connection, well, you dont need to, because this is something aogami literally tells you at the school portion of the story, but that doesnt explain why dazai became such an cartoonishly evil character, but no, it does, because who gave powers to dazai? mastema, what is mastema main fucking power, controlling demons, what happens with weak minded individuals, yeah they start acting more like demons, mastema literally controls demons, is not just dazai being done badly, I keep telling people this, you guys don't read, you all allergic to words, but basically that's the point.
Now koshimizu, you're definetely over exaggerating his character arc and his value, is it true that he has the most interesting background, absolutely, does he has the best scene in the game, yes, he does, but the value in the story while extremely good, it does not reflect his character growth, I enjoy his changed in tune, which align more to one of regret for being unable to protect yuzuru, but he hardly had any sustantial value in between the good scenes, that while yes, where really good, but still fail to get anything else going, his best scenes being fusing with the mc, the konsu part and him dying, of course the theme of him discarding his own agenda was an important step, but it didn't felt that important, I still like that know he acts as the agent of revenge, but he does little to convey that feeling, this is why I cannot give him that full number 1, I do believe he was done much better than the original for sure, but had he had more agency on the theme of revenge, as in, constantly being affected and consume by revenge for yuzuru and aogami, he would have earn that spot, instead giving up and being a protector, which is also good, and good is great but why not aim for greater.
My issue with a lot of people saying yoko is extremist and all, and that is hard to take her seriously, I get that, but that circles back to my point on dazai, people are allergic to reading, like I swear, is like everyone forgot that the mc set her soul free in the paths of time, which believe it or not is an important part of the entire smt lore, because wouldnt you know it, the mc is capable of trancending time itself, he can literally reborn into new times and liberate them from the mandala system on the route he chooses, and again, yoko is a being that was seal for who knows how, it only makes sense for her to be kind of insane when it comes to her ideals, her design is a little bit bland and simple, she is makes the most sense when it comes to how the lore presented her.
Meh, I'd say SMTV/VV should be treated just as amazing entry gameplay/graphic/music-wise, plot should be discarded altogether as it's just pathetic and painful to seriously consider. All characters are empty shells, robots have much more to say than humans, ones that should be most important lore-wise (law/chaos/neutral) propagate literally kindergarten-level ideologies.
In all honesty, Naho-bee-ho should be #1. Amanozako #2, Muu Shuwuu #3, Jack Bros who stole apple #4 and #5.
Dazai is the only good character in CoC (Original and/or didn't Yoko's hand). sure it has a few plot hole such as sudden powerup but the characterization of him is Organic. Dazai himself were always bullied for being a Half-White in School. He also always see his parent quarrel. having no guidance in life turns him into a clown wimp.
Meeting with Abdiel who were strict and confident made Dazai admire her, and become a parental figure to him. seeing Abdiel lost against the MC in the summit, with addition that the fact Dazai is Abdiell's knowledge and she refuse to become a Nahobino brokes him down. Dazai throwing off his hat and turned into cheesy Edgelord Vergil wannabe is the result of his own resolve and his purpose of life. Hence, he was able to convince and influence the strict and menacing abdiel to become a Nahobino. breaking one law to execute Order. Making Abdiel turned into a fallen angel just for them to become a Nahobino is also the influence came from Dazai's resolve.
He's also not wrong with letting the pantheon deities reign over humans only result with endless war seeing how Odin, and Especially Shiva (seeing him as the India branch leader is a superboss) won't play nice to each other. those "deities" will only ended up eating each other. the Chaos CoC ending is exactly happening as what Dazai said.
Meanwhile CoV dazai simply trust Mastema. it make sense for the powerup, but has 0 characterization. he's suddenly becoming Mastema's lapdog and hunt down people who try to become a Nahobino. it butchered his character and he become more insufferable. In addition, Abdiel also somehow turned fallen out of nowhere.
CoV Dazai also looked like a traditional chaos hero in various SMT games where they were started to feel weak and went on power trip turning into a social darwinist and saying executing God's law is just an excuse.
CoC Dazai has a sense of justice but he just felt incompetent, abdiel gave a guidance that keeping your faith firmly. later believe the power of becoming Nahobino is only a tool and requirement to execute God's law. He's more fixated with defying the God's will to enforce His law will rather than just saying "wE NeEd PoWeR tO ExEcUTe oRDeR".
Fun fact, Stuart Allen (Dazai's VA) is also voicing Damian Wayne in DC Animated Movie Universe. that kid is good on voicing a prick characrter.
Good Video btw :)
Yeah i really hated that Vengeance didnt commit to its theme, like I am sorry but Tsukuyomi Nahobino is way cooler than Susano-o Nahobino, I was so tired of the Blue Long hair look but that could probably be because I had SMT V on the switch back on release.
wow 11 years of shit characters, like seriously? If that's the case then that means SMT IV and Apocalypse doesn't have good characters or cast?
Because I really liked Isabeu, Walter, Jonathan and surprisingly enough I don't hate Apocalypse CAST and I am playing that game THIS YEAR (In the final dungeon at the moment) the only character I don't like all that much is Nozomi.
Wait this game had other characters besides the young man? i must have missed something.
Nigga if the mc died then they would be no more smtv😂😂😭😭
I do wish we got Amaterasu tho.
i think Tao and Yoko both have Amaterasu, given Tao has the crown while Yoko has the mirror in their panagia forms.
a small scene in the CoV has Koshimitsu mention her as the camera points to Tao.
@@TheSSBBfan666 i think yoko is more like Izanami over Amaterasu tho but idk. Izanami is pretty vengeful afterall
yogoat at 4? omagotoki charge, omagotoki succesion, 7 press turn paraselene blur on you!!
personally I would put dazai higher, yoko on number 1. Yuzuru imo is such a nothing burger I would put him at like 15
Bruh wtf...
Oui
Ringo is amazning. The game itself is hella boring
Can we all still agree that the only good law rep the SMT series ever had is Yuzuru "Joe" Akie?
Nigga what ru on😭😭
I love Yoko. She's probably my favorite Chaos rep because of how unintentionally funny she can get. She says the most extreme shit that instead of coming off as offensive, it's just hilariously dark.