Ford "Smart Charge System" Alternator Not Charging
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- On many Fords the alternator has a ‘smart charge system’ that regulates the output of the alternator to ensure the battery is being charged efficiently, reducing emissions and improving performance. So let's come along with Eric O. at the SMA shop as he diagnoses this F-150 that came in with a no charge condition. Remember the alternator is controlled by the PCM which monitors certain parameters such as the engine temperature, battery temperature and electrical demand.This can sometimes be misdiagnosed as an alternator failure. Test don't guess!!
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Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. South Main Auto Repair assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. South Main Auto Repair recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not South Main Auto Repair.
engineers should have a minimum of 2 years as a mechanic before designing cars and trucks!!!!!
engineer types cant fix a broken shoelace on a rollerskate they wont make it as mechanics for 2 days
Lyle Allred maybe 4 years would be better
Most of your engineers have done work like this before, well your mechanical and automotive engineers. It's the business guy that comes in later and says, "we nees this cheaper to maintain profit margins" "we need this within (insert impossible dimensional constraints) to meet what the graphic wants". Then on top of that there's government standards that must be maintained.
Not with Factory tools but backyard mechanic tools. Floor jack jack stands. Big tree used for an engine hoist. Then give him some monstrosity to rebuilt the engine on
Shit dude... Most of them have already, Statistic analysis says 78 percent has had prior work in their line before becoming the engineer. So you’re left with 22 percent leaving school as an engineer WITHOUT prior experience in the field.
Buenos Dias. I've been working on cars my whole life.30 years professionally. I always get a priceless morsel of info from every video I watch from you. your the best...as the other Eric said"Your the REAL mechanic"
Hope you get home before you fall asleep. I enjoy technology but I think in some cases the manufacturer's have gone too far. You don't need to build a nuclear reactor to light a cigarette, a charging system doesn't need to be so complicated. Just my opinion.
Too much technology for such a simple operation
Maybe, however i appreciate this video, I have a diagnosis to do where the customer has one that is charging and not charging randomly. it left him walking a couple of times, and he already replaced alternator and battery, so this vid is EXACTLY what i need to this diagnosis. easier to watch a diag in progress than to read 5 pages of "theroy and operation". This is where it is all going, technology reigns supreme.
I agree ... at the end as per description ... the altenator charges with or without the "PCM" ,,, and the video demonstrated exactly that ... The oscilloscope is OK, but it does not serve here to the purpose of the video ...
I think one of the main reasons the charging system is designed this way is to reduce the engine load as much as possible (saving fuel do to less engine load) ... it does extend the life of the battery as well as the charging system ... the charging systems monitored JUST voltage goal 13.5 to 14 volts ALL the time (at least 13.5 under full load) with PWM these days charging system can be set up to control current as well as voltage... no need to throw 60 amps of current to a fully charged battery ... that will just severely reduce its life
That's why I don't mess with 2000 and newer cars
PCM be like 'Alternator's not communicating, does the owner need to know this? -nah, it'll be fine...' :P
Jan Verschueren haven’t seen a Ford with a volt meter in years! Don’t know if it’s just the super duty’s that have them at all anymore or not
To be sure it's the alternator start it up let it run then take the positive lead off the battery if it stalls it's the alternator but they say you shouldn't do it on newer cars with all the computer modules but I've still done it
I promise that when I say I watch this guys full videos and it’s not the same car that I need to fix. You got to live this Guy!!! Thank you for the kind of work you do sir.
I love the way you go through "experimenting" to show what is actually going on. I've done many alternator diagnostics over my 55 years in the business, but never knew some of the detals your Picoscope showed. I think I will be using the Picoscope more as I diagnose charging systems in my shop.
Thank you for your thoroughness. Too many TH-cam videos are made by dummies that don't know what they are doing.
Conclusion: When Erik O says, "Interesting" he really means, "WTF?"
LOL
Haha👍🏻
Mrs O probably "cured" him of that. ;)
Thats funny ha,ha I wonder why Eric o didn,didn't, try using a spare battery he might have some where in his stash maybe the current battery has a bad cell ,just a thaut
Very intriguing issue Eric O looks like The Generator is no linger communicating with the Pcm and when the pcm seems no communication back it shuts the communication down @SouthMainAutoRepairLLC
why in the world would u over complicate something so simple . fuckin ford cant wait for all these ecoboost trucks to start blowing up. cause they put turbos in em and no one is gonna run sythetic oil in em and change it on time. plus the direct injection a fuckin nightmare. should be running 40 weight oil in those things too not 30 weight
yet another ford smart "anti-charge" system, or service department filler
fully agree ... makes the car as advertised "Fix Or Repair Daily" ...depsite the all signals the Diagnonsis Computer does not get any fault ... at the end ... good old alternator replacement solves the problem ...
mar1234567 not always
@@mar-hz5or "Fix...Or...REPLACE...Daily"
The water pump behind the timing chains cost ford 50,000 dollar sale..keep up the stupidity ford
@@TheOzthewiz No, Ford is - Fix Or Repair Daily
that's why I sold my shop, customer doesn't understand the lost time, either way the shop pay for it.
A famous ass kicker once said "Simplicity is the key to brilliance." I guess that does not apply in this field at all.
Artificial illetigence is just round the corner, together with a "do next" flow chart it'll all come good
You think that's bad what he didn't tell you is even worse! If the battery light burns out the system will not charge. Now isn't that just brilliant Ford leaves people stranded on the road because your check battery light burned out your car isn't charging and you don't notice till the thing is acting up and you are low on voltage.
@@WilliamBush1967 I was wondering if the battery light was working at key on, engine off.
Even for an experienced technician such as yourself, continuous learning and research is a must in today's vehicles. I'm learning this first hand, and for us old guys, it comes slow. Keep it up Eric, your videos help! The camera picked up the alternator whistling too, that was cool. I could tell by the interior that truck sees little maintenance. Thanks for spending extra time on this one, it was well worth it.
I really liked the fact that you showed you did not have the answer. if I lived closer I would trust my truck to you simply based on your honesty. thanks for the video. I take my hat off to you... now go get some sleep
Eric,
The way I heard it several years ago is.......GEN_COM pulsing 1 pulse every 5 seconds is the PCM telling the alternator "no change in voltage set point. Keep doing what you are doing." Multiple pulses is the PCM commanding a different set point. When you start the engine you can watch the GEN_COM duty cycle ramp up to the target. Then you see the single pulses every 5 seconds begin and continue until something needs to change due to electrical load, RPM etc.
This may not be 100% correct but engineers don't tell us everything about what they are really doing.
This is correct, but it's actually talking about the voltage of the battery itself.
So, it shuts down other sensors to try and force the battery into a charging state, but since there is a lack of communication elsewhere, the alternator is not engaging correctly.
In other words, I bet this truck charged ok via the Highway, or after the engine comes to operating temperature :-P.
Thanks a lot for your input here. I know it's been 2 years.
Nice informative video - if unplugging the controls wires on the alternator don't set a code then swapping it out for a single wire Delco wouldn't be a problem... I have been a generator man for about 30 years and as far as complexability goes - this ford system is not that bad at all - to test the alt just unplug it and rev the engine and see if the voltage comes up - if not you know u need at least an alternator - for you guys that were asking why you have to rev the engine it is because the alternator has to build a certain voltage to turn on the regulator - this turn on voltage is caused by what is referred to as residual voltage . The residual voltage is caused by the leftover magnetism in the steel of the field coil. Once the residual is high enough the regulator will use it to create the input power for the voltage regulator which will then supply the field current to the rotating field to complete building the voltage to the required level. I haven't seen anything on how this thing works but I'm pretty sure this won't miss the mark very far - when the computer communicates with the alternator what it is doing is first controlling what is referred to as a field flashing circuit - this circuit makes the alternator build voltage without having to rev the engine - what it probably does is take power from the battery sensing lead and feed it into the regulator - then the PCM just senses the battery voltage - engine speed - air temp - throttle position and whatever else some brain dead moron engineer could dream up to arrive at some desired battery voltage - the results of that PCM subroutine determines the signal sent to the voltage regulator to either raise or lower the field voltage which result in the rise or fall of the alternator output. I noticed that when the throttle went wide open the charging current was cut to 50% that is probably a system to allow for more horsepower to the wheels - logic being you need all the horsepower available otherwise you wouldn't have your foot stuck through the radiator... The basic logic behind all the engineering changes to ford and the rest of the car manufactures rests with two trains of thought - the first is simple - if an engineer told his boss that whatever system he was responsible for was good and needed no redesign or changes he would be laid off the next week simple as that - the other train of thought and what all the engineers blame is government regulations - and government has practly regulated automobiles to such a point that the cost of ownership is getting more than most folks can afford.. I think it would be fantastic if all the auto dealers would send notice to the Feds that they would all shut down on a date certain because they could not build a car that could pass emissions - the car companies would tell the Feds they would close down layoff all assembly line workers and just supply replacement parts for the existing models ... And all the laid off workers would meet any boat that tried to import into America and burn every car unloaded... I bet the epa would back off of some of their BS then.... Keep up the good work Eric
Okay, time for a rant. The manufacturers, in search of operating "efficiency" don't consider overall cost of ownership. I learned that on newer BMWs and MINI's (which I have) you have to program the ECM when you get a new battery. The dealer charges $148 for this service. So on top of the cost of a new battery ($160 for the only battery that will fit a MINI) you have this charge. Whatever savings you might possibly get from a more efficient alternator are completely lost at battery change time. All to meet Government CAFE standards.
Corporate Average Fuel Economy----means crap vehicles. Suspension, chassis, components, etc. built so light that you wonder how the vehicle can ever keep an alignment. Absolute garbage!
That's BMW problem not a manufacturer or efficiency problem. Ford's system is really overdone here too. My Honda has a much simpler system. It has an ammeter, and based on ammeter draw it uses the same line that alternators have used for voltage sense to control the alternator. Its a really simple reliable system that drops alternator output by feeding a higher voltage and increases voltage by reducing voltage.
If you're driving a BMW they assume you don't care about TCO, Honda make there bread and butter off of TCO.
Stick a 12V power supply somewhere on the car while unplugging the battery, no problemo.
Whether they're airlines, shipping or manufacturing companies - or anything else - if a corporation can save 5 cents by putting you out 5 dollars in money or headache, they'll do it every time. They don't care because, in the end, you keep coming back.
You would need to energize multiple circuits and bypass others or you risk breaking stuff
Eric, Remy Power Products youtube channel does a good explanation of the Ford charging systems. The GENCOM duty cycle can go silent when no change in charging status is needed. Also, the regulator supplies the voltage on the GENCOM line and the PCM toggles it to ground to create the duty cycle signal command. The PCM supplies the voltage on the GENMON line to the regulator. The regulator GENMON will toggle the signal voltage to ground to signal the PCM the charging status. Remy also has good explanation of GM and Hyundai charging systems on their youtube channel.
Watching it now. Good explanation.
I was just about to say this. The PCM will communicate when it wants to change the desired charging voltage OR it will send the same signal once every 5 seconds or so if it DOESN'T change the desired charging voltage. It does the 5 second pulses so that the alternator can be sure that there isn't a loss of communication and go to fail safe mode. This can be verified by watching the scan tool data. It shows 0% gencom on the scan tool when the desired charging voltage stays the same, but shows changing gencom when the desired voltage changes. I suspect that the 0% display on your scan tool for gencom when it isn't continuously communicating is a glitch with the autel, but I'd also guess that if the autel had a much faster refresh rate, you would see it briefly show the correct gencom duty cycle every time it transmits every 5 seconds. I am fairly certain the IDS is programmed to show the last gencom that the pcm transmitted rather than a literal display of what it currently transmitting on gencom.
Also, a quick note on the alternator fail-safe or "default" mode if it doesn't get any transmission from the PCM. It will only start charging at its preset voltage in the absence of data from the PCM once the alternator rotor speed passes a certain threshold. Its different for every car since the pulley sizes are different, but generally speaking it should start charging and continue to charge if you rev the engine to around 3000rpm.
Hi Eric! Although more than a year passed since you made this video, I only saw it now and have 2 questions bugging me:
1. Don't you guys repair the alternators for the more common faults? (bearings, voltage regulator, diodes, brushes)
2. Would the old alternator work if the "smart" plug was undone? Could it be just the "smart" part of it bad and it still would work as "dumb"?
bad voltage regulator
nothing smart about this charging system
Leave it to Ford to take something super simple and completely fuck it up by trying to be cute
@@ericb7131 Ford comment of all time
The idea of these type systems is to give your battery longer life, reduce fuel consumption and make your alternator provide only the power the system needs. Of course this is moot when it fails but does provide value to the ones that work as designed.
@@chuckgrenci6404 once again more eco fuel efficiency crap, it probably nets you .001 mpg and any fuel savings are negated 300x over by repair costs. Too much over complication on every newer car. They can keep it, I'm staying old school as long as I can.
The newer ford trucks are even worse. Forget about jumping off stuff with the newer models.
I've seen it many times. By the time they perfect this system, it will be obsolete. By then there will be another great engineering marvel(on paper), that will be another failure. Is this the way technology evolves.
i'd be interested to see if a diode was bad in the alternator, back-feeding the system. Does your scope give a diode pattern? Great video.
ECM?? don't you mean ECU did you put a new fan belt on it lol
everybody knows you can just plug a scan tool in and press a button and it will fix it well that's what they always tell me every day
Wow, what an awesome video. I'm an Electrical Engineer and thoroughly enjoyed your trouble shooting process. I'm researching why my 2002 F150 is not charging and came across your video. Great stuff. I learned a lot.
I love my one wire GM alternators.
Cheater. lol
Thanks for the nice video, but it's just another example of over engineered garbage under vehicles.
Amen Rick Amen.
Its a wonder that older car even ran at times.
Modern overcomplicated heeps of overpriced garrbage.
Simple is good in my book.
i wouldnt necessarily call it over engineered. these systems can extend battery and alternator service life.
who knows how old that alternator was? it may have been the factory original, in which case it lasted a long time.
yes, i will agree that cars are super complicated devices now, but generally speaking they are safer, more reliable, better built, quieter, comfortable, etc..
AND...when you have techs like Eric O. (who is DA MAN) they are easy enough to service and repair
How long is a alternator suppose to last?
Idk its a pretty simple system. 3 wires red full time power blue 5volt and the grey wire is a lamp indicator.
+fripp how long, perhaps 50k miles seems about average for what ive seen
Thank you. You helped me with my own problem so much. Only thing is the newer 2016 ford's will throw every code possible except the battery light when the alt goes bad lol
This happened to me while driving along on the highway, all my gages turned off on my 2001econoline f250 van equipped with a handicapped ramp. I had never seen anything like that ever happened to me knowing quite a bit about mechanics being a mechanic since about the 80s N early 90s. I'm paralyzed now so I can't do what I use too ( mechanical work ). nevertheless it turned out to be the alternator point is that it gave me no warning except the gages just stopped working til a mechanic came to the highway, put a computer on it and found out it wasn't charging. Oh and not even did the charging meter warned me that the battery wasn't being charged! like I said, everything just turned off. after replacing the alternator everything started working again.
Thanks for your videos cause they show us alot.
Really Great Video!! You ain't crazy one iota. As far as I'm concerned, the ones who disagree will never learn the who, what where and why of anything. They will only settle for the "toss in a new part" without being 100% sure why it's the right thing to do. Further more, I will bet an rootbeer and ice cream float that they'll pass onto the customer all the costs for unnecessarily ordered parts.
I agree 100%
Thanks! I get so much more when I understand what I'm looking at and working with. I'm sure that is the same for many others.
It's always best to learn how to fix something than it is to run in, drop a load and dart off into the cloud. Oh wait, I was talking about fixing auto's not toilets. Sure glad I used the letter "d" and not "f". After all, this is a family channel.
Eric will always teach us What to do with the Why explained and the How to do it if we are willing to watch, listen and apply. That's when we ask those relative questions to everyone in the channel and are quickly guided by the best in the field.
And when I don't know what questions to ask - I simply re-watch the video and the answers abound. When they don't get answered we almost always learn how to ask our questions in better ways.
Thanks Again Gerald!
Wow, I just went through same thing on my 2010 edge. Your videos especially this one has helped me a lot. I don’t have all the fancy tools but you explain things really well. Thanks for all you do and keep ‘em coming!
Hi Eric! Love your videos and as a retired Electonics Tech, I am impressed by your electronics knowledge along with your excellent mechanic skills. I really am getting tired of some of these TH-cam mechanics that call any car electrical problem a "short",ie, some Scotty guy. I have a question regarding the BMS (battery management system) that is used in a 2013 Focus. I recently purchased a Focus with 56k on the clock. The issue I am having is that the body control module is "off loading " some of the non-essential electrical items such as ; the media center, the wipers and other items occasionally while the ignition switch is in the "accessory" position. Everything works while the car is in the "ignition" position and/or engine running except I get low batt at times on the center display panel. As I understand it, the Ford BMS has a "battery aging" that the computer checks. When the battery is replaced, the body control module MUST be reset,otherwise the computer will still "think" the OLD battery is in the vehicle and will continue to "turn off" some systems. My question is, how can I reset the BCM without going to the dealer and paying $150 because I DON'T have a Ford multi- thousand dollar scan tool. Also, what is your take on disconnecting the sense wire going to the NEG side of the battery. Will this throw a "light" and put me in a worse position like screwing up the electrical sysytem? Sorry for being so long winded, but I figure if anyone understands this funky set up , you're THE MAN!
All of this com for fuel efficiency mandates from Epa a thousand eyes.
Your video was exactly what I was having problems with with my six GEN alternator charging system in my Ford mustang 200 4 oh I’ve been trying to deal with this for like three days I’m not a mechanic I don’t have a mechanic shop but I am mechanically claimed and I tried everything I’ve researched it all and it kept just not charging so I’m gonna go try what you just did and I’ll re-comment back in the comments but so far you’re a freaking genius thanks
i've got the 04 Mach 1, 6 month old alternator and i cant find any info on the middle wire on the alternator pigtail, i get 12v to the 2 outside ones, nothing on themiddle one
Did you find a fix?
You are a pleasure to listen to Sir, felt like I was standing next to you. Well done, very thorough. Hope you got a beer on the way home!
Take a look at the ground wire down by the stater on the bell housing that’s where my trouble was on my explorer 2006 it was broke off which caused the alt to short out
The alternator is shunting charge and not sending a signal of failure due to it not meeting the signal for it to send a failure to the IPC to indicate a failure. The alternator is providing just enough charge under idle to charge, but not enough charge under load. The under load voltage is sufficient to not trip the IPC to illuminate the battery light. Essentially the diode has partially failed and is essentially "shunting charge" . The Ford dash and lights all react in strange manners when the battery charge gets low and creates havoc with the electronics. I went through this with a 2011 Ford Edge limited alternator. The alternators are not able to be rebuild or repaired and it must be replaced. Highly recommend a new OEM alternator. The Ford Edge will display "battery Saver" warnings with low battery's but this does not point to the alternator. Load testing must be performed and can be tricky to detect as it sometimes can be very intermittent or barely noticeable. Eric a Ford Edge alternator is a real PITA to change as you have to remove the fan assembly, tire, wheel well cover etc and work from bottom and top to remove the alternator and you have to work the alternator to from the passenger side to the drivers side to remove it. Then reverse the process.
Could you explain why this Ford Edge alternator can't be rebuilt? Also, what do you mean by "shunting charge"----the alternator is charging a little but not enough? Thanks if you or anyone explains.
Interesting how it Doesn't Throw any codes Even with the Communication lines Unplugged 🤔 Eric O @SouthMainAutoRepairLLC
I dont own this vehicle, I don't have this issue it was a random suggestion because I've watched other car videos including yours for other car issues, I still sat through the whole 40 minutes just enjoying the technical stuff I felt like I was watching myself trying to diagnose a problem using wiring diagrams, internet searches and some diagnostic tools albeit much more basic than yours. You're a great mechanic your attention to detail and OCD thoroughness is what ever customer should get from a mechanic when we pay top dollar for service. Cheers from Australia 😊🇦🇺
Its clear the system is pretty stupid, the parameters they designed into it didnt account for a high load problem. Go home,get some sleep and yes I would have changed the alt. Sounds like its more of a maintenance system but not designed well. It should have illuminated the charge light.I bet Ford already knows this. Its too bad Mechanics cant have a general on line forum to post stuff like this so everyone can be informed. Thanks for doing what you do to inform the uninformed. Who knows,you may make so much doing these,you can retire early,lol.
consider the source the name FORD says it all
they have made a working system more complicated, rely on the cpu to report a bad alternator, it should be obvious that it is calling for charge, but the system voltage isnt rising, thus just light the indicator as a fault?
Negative it is because they can't build shit.
scott firman Identafix is the mechanic online forum on our referring too, is pretty good,my brother has it in his shop,while not necessary it sure helps you speed up a diagnosis and gives you other mechanics outcomes and confirmed fixes for the same problem
FORD STUPID CHARGE SYSTEM!
COST 900 DOLLARS PLUS LABOR AND TAX
Ok so I am just as confused now as I was at the beginning. I go through a lot of Alternators. I have to change them about once every year to two years. (Small amp alt. every year. Large amp alt. every two years approx) There was one time (and only once) I noticed that with the van in park, engine warm. I reved the engine. When the RPM's fell back down the "Battery" light came on. Well it flickered. brought it to the garage and they changed the alternator. The light didn't do it again. Matter of fact the next time the alt went on meI was cruising down the interstate and "BANG" it just stopped charging. I have since installed a digital display and I have noticed that the numbers do change. anywhere from 13.7 to 14.2 VDC. If I do increase the demand the volt will drop. I have not noticed them return to normal with the load on. when the load is removed the volts return. Any how hope you tell the customer the same thing you told me. "Buy a Toyota" LOL
In looking at the electrical drawing its strange that the alternator charging output to the battery goes through two Fusible links in parallel to the battery POS. You should only have one fusible link to protect the POS wire going to the alternator as close as practicable to the battery POS terminal. A fusible link is a wire type with a wire gauge much smaller than the wire it is protecting to provide a known point of failure in case of a short circuit. The fusible link wire is designed to open and the insulation to bubble when overloaded so you can identify the fault by looking at the fusible link portion of the circuit, usually around 6 inches. You can by fusible link insulated wire on spools in various wire gauges to make your own repairs.
Also, if you look at the wiring diagram you see a CAN bus between the PCM and the instrument cluster. Why not just put the alternator on the same CAN bus? You already use two wires as GEN COM and GEN MON and the CAN bus is only two wires.
The original intent to have the PCM control and monitor the alternator is that the PCM would have a strategy to estimate battery state of charge and control the alternator to provide proper charging in the different battery charge states; Bulk, Absorption, Float, ETC. What year this strategy went into effect I don't know, but you may be able to find out if you look at the variables you can monitor with the scan tool that would indicate such a strategy is in place. Like battery state of charge, SOC.
UPDATE:
My Ford EVTM manual wiring diagram review for light vehicles with V8s from 1996 to 2008 indicates the reason Ford uses two 12 AWG fusible links to protect a single B+ 6 AWG (BK/O) GXL copper wire is that Ford did not specify a FL with a smaller gauge than 12 AWG. There is no 10 AWG or 8 AWG FL used for cars and light trucks (up to the base F150). So, Ford and the supplier decided to use two 12 AWG FLs in parallel.
The dumb (as opposed to FORD smart alternators like shown in the video) alternator applications have a 20 AWG FL protecting the Alternator sense (A) terminal circuit (16 AWG single wire circuit), and two 12 AWG FLs protecting the B+ circuit (6 AWG single wire circuit), to protect the wiring in case the alternator shorts out internally on either of these two circuits. However, the paralleling of the two 12 AWG FLs is very unconventional for an OEM in this time period, and the question that a lot of technicians ask is what if one of the FLs fails due to corrosion or chaffing, will the other FL be able to correctly operate the circuit. I believe the answer is no. I think the preferred repair if there is a failure in one of the 12 AWG FLs would be to use a single 10 AWG FL of the same length (around 7 inches for Ford) to protect the 6 AWG B+ wire. Use non-insulated step down (10 AWG to 6 AWG Burndy butt splice using a hydraulic crimper) butt splices with RED dual wall heat shrink to make the connections. Do not solder FL connections. Ford often puts the A terminal sense at the same splice after the 12 AWG FLs which I find a little strange, you would think the sense wire would be connected directly to the battery POS or directly to the POS of the main power distribution box under hood.
The two common failure modes of the 12 AWG FLs in parallel is blown due to short circuit of the B+ circuit (which is not very common unless the rubber terminal boot has rotted away) or failure in one due to corrosion (usually a nick in the wire and not at the splice) in the other, which leads to strange behavior until the other 12 AWG FL fails. Corrosion seems to be the more likely failure mode.
If there are any technicians or engineers that know more about the alternator circuit parallel 12 AWG FLs approach please let me know.
Yep.. Same crazy idea over here! Although most of the later Fords I've seen have gone back to the single wire to the PCM
Does 2008 ford f150 4.2 L have smart charge system.? My battery went bad after 7.5 yrs and replaced it. gauge went down to zero. I replaced the battery. THen the charging lite blinked twice after testing driving it the next day and i returned home afraid to get stuck. Any ideas?
I see nothing smart about that charging system. Ford got a better idea.
Joe Tiller;I don't think so either. Ford has a better idea, not so sure about that in this case.
FORD
FUCKING
OVER
ROAD
DUMPSHIT
I was hoping this video would help me with a similar problem; 2003 f250 5.4 battery light coming on intermittently, now not light, dead battery. New battery, new alternator, one of the two wires to the alternator has 12 the other nothing. Alternator not charging. Checked fuse links, seem good. Tried Forscan but can't get it to work. Guess I have to save a bank roll and take it to Ford. Unfortunately this video and all the others I've watched did not solve the problem.
"smart"? What a load of bollix lol nice work Dr O!
My battery light on my 03 came on. Replaced battery, alternator at same time. Battery light still on. Thoughts?
As for me with my expertise it pisses me off that the pcm would have a lot to due with charging. I followed most the testing. But even he was slightly confused confused with the readouts and why he wasnt getting the red light . Basically my testing skills arent that good so im going to replace my alternator. And if thats not it if its my pcm im gona be hot. Because at that point . I think my pcm is sticking its nose in too many places. Well until my battery starts overcharging anyways .but my usuaull problem is. My alt not charging. But i apppreciated the video. Thanks
Eric thank you for taking the time to shoot that video. I am a big fan of your channel. I agree better to test than to guess. Having a good reputation for quality work is what keeps you in business. Have a good one.
Gary Habat:I second that, my thoughts exactly.
You are a fantastic mechanic, and you obviously know your stuff. I would take my truck to you any day. I just wish you had done one more thing to make sure that it was indeed a faulty alternator. You should have disconnected the OLD alternator from the (dumb) smart charging system to see if was indeed bad.
The reason I say that, besides the obvious, is that there's talk out there on Ford forums, that the computer learns bad behavior, and recognizes it as being normal.
I just put a new battery in my 08 Lincoln Mark LT, and now it's throwing a code for the charging system. It started doing that the minute I started the truck after I put the NEW battery in. It NEVER did it before while the OLD battery was in it. It would be absolutely amazing to me, that at the very instant my old battery was completely dead, the alternator crapped out as well.
I know it was the battery that was bad, because it would be dead in the morning, I'd jump it quick, and I could drive around all day with the AC on, the radio on, drive at night with the lights on, and it would ruin just fine, and it would also start up every time I started it that same day.....then.....it'd be dead again in the morning. So, CLEARLY, the alternator was maintaining a certain level of charge in the OLD battery. The battery would just go dead overnight from the power draw from background devices.....alarm, radio memory, etc.....
Anyway....I looked that symptom up in the Ford forums, and found that this is a very common thing actually. So, I just figured I'd let it run for a couple days and see what happened. I just kept hitting the reset button on my dash every time the battery light came on, and the monitor said to check the charging system. I noticed today, that indeed, my battery was getting low on the gauge. I was driving by pep Boys, so I whipped in to see if they could test my alternator quick.
The guy did the tests, and showed me that my battery voltage was 10.4....and that my battery was junk. lol Well.....no duh my battery voltage is low.....I told him that my battery was about dead. But....at any rate, we tested the voltage while running, and, it didn't go up at all...so.....clearly the alternator isn't charging the battery either. I doubt the battery is junk...it's just currently dead....
But here's the issue. While my OLD battery WAS dead, and was obviously dying for a while, the truck kept running fine, I think the computer just learned that low voltage as being normal, and so now it won't charge the new battery. You follow? The old battery was probably only running at about 11-11.5 volts, so the computer interpreted that as being normal, and now it won't charge the new battery past that, and actually lets it drop even further.
I'm going to what you did, and unhook the alternator from the (dumb) smart charging system, and see if it starts charging. If it doesn't, obviously the alternator is bad then, but, I'm betting it'll charge it. It looks like a newer alternator on the engine. I just bought the truck in April, and all this stuff going on is telling me that the previous owner probably had similar issues.
Just wanted to give you something else to think about.
Thanks for all your information!!
I have to admit I would struggle a lot to understand this type of charging system. Thank you so much this will help somebody for sure. You are awesome. Cheers.
Essentially the charging system adapts to the temperatures in the battery and the ambient temperatures. These things can affect the rate at which a battery can charge. My battery is low you can charge it fast up to about 70 or 80% depending on conditions. After that it charges much slower. It is the nature of what acid batteries. This charging system attached to make the charge itself more efficient if you're trying to jam volts into a battery that we can't take it because the battery itself is 2 warm War the ambient temperatures to armor both these things are governed by physics. So if you're trying to throw voltage at a battery that can't take it and you're just wasting fuel. Not sure I'm qualified to judge whether or not the system could have been done differently but I do know that lead acid batteries require some monitoring in large systems to ensure proper charging and not boiling the acid in the battery. Boiling your battery is bad because it gives off excessive amounts of hydrogen and oxygen.
thanks to this video I was able to get through the 2012 f150 with the battery light with a p0625. found the fuse-able link for the 'gensen' not completely blown...but I saw it dropping to 0 volts...thanks eric!!
What no brake clean ????????????????
My 1993 Toyota Pickup truck is looking better and better. It runs like new.
Very helpful and complete!
Excellent video, Eric. I have an 03 focus sitting in the driveway right now as it will not charge... same as this truck, no batt light and the gages wigged out a bit. Not having a scope yet, I will unplug the connector and see if it will default charge. I already checked the 175 amp fusible link on the charge line and it's good. Great video
This system reminds me of Homer, when he says I am so smart, I am so smart, then spells it s m r t.
LOL
great vid...thank you... im learning this system too...so thanks for your video.. love how you took the humble route on this vid.... no mechanic know every danm thang attitude.. its a constant learning process...awesome dude!!! hayes mobile auto repair
Hi Eric i dont know if this is relevant but i did hear somewhere that the red light wont come on unless the battery voltage gets down to about 8 volts and is controlled by the ecu...if its true or not i dont know, but doesn't seem to behave like normal batt lights..from Fred in England...
To simplify diagnosis in this kind of system it would be convenient to be able to disconnect the alternator from the system and test it on the bench, independent of their complicated communication system on the car. The old 'full field' charging systems did just that, in a much simpler format. I am surprised Ford didn't think of designing the program around that principle. Did you ever decide how this alternator failed, was it a software problem inside the device, a voltage regulator issue, or the alternator charging system itself?
Great video. I was diagnosing something similar on a Ford, battery light was on all the time. IAT sensor wasn't plugged in after changing the air filter. Now I understand why battery charging light came on. Thank you for your efforts.
Great video thanks for your time !
I recently diagnosed a BMW 525i with a low charge condition , checked charge rate at battery found it too low , checked again at B+ post on the alternator and it too was low , case ground ok as well.
Scoped the single LIN line into the alternator and found the PCM command signal present and intact.
Was seconds away from calling an alternator when the PAS pulley caught my eye , it didn't seem to be turning at the correct speed from what I could hear of the engine speed. Got a colleague to rev up the engine and the aux belt didn't change speed with the engine rpm , it stayed approx 300rpm .
Took the belt off and found that the crank pulley had delaminated and was acting like a slipper clutch, the more load on the belt the more it slipped.
The centre of the pulley could spin independently of the outside.
It pays to do the correct checks I guess , but I've never seen that happen before in my case just guessing at the alternator would have dropped me in the proverbial.
Thanks again !
Expect the unexpected!
There is a DiagnoseDan video where the door handle stops a BMW from running.
Sounds like the smart regulator is separate from the Generator Portion of the alternator. Default is 13.8 with "Command" to increase voltage.
Read story on Honda...he only sent mechanics to engineering school. That is the issue today..to many "geniuses" design stuff yet never built anything...like architect quacks.
The British did this over designing a lot on Rolls Royce a disaster...We have a few here...you can't believe how cover complicated they are..insane!
it's always something with fords
so if i unplugged the connector and it charged but not when plugged in would it mean a pcm problem
What year was this truck?
Great video and info. When I worked at Kia I found they also don't have the battery light come on when it's not charging. Have had them come in barely running at 10 volts after a boost and no light.
Just ran into this 12.33% (not the alternator problem on my 13 Explorer. Kept getting a "check charging system" message, replaced the alternator, battery current sensor, battery was on warranty. Still getting the message. Message was very intermittent, would not stay on for more than a minute, no DTCs. It would charge up to 13.5v at times, then drop down to 11.5v or lower. Battery was leaking like crazy so I probably got corrosion on a fusible link thats going to require me to dig into this harness and waste a lot of my time.
Ever figure it out.
OMG, wrong vr alternator possible wires fusible link, I've been going to the library and deal with experience only...🙋🏁 Chao
Seems like the internal regulator was lying to the PCM somehow? So there was no command to charge. 11th wonder of the world. Yoga pants were worn while watching this vid lol
I agree, but you would think the PCM would of noticed the low voltage on the sense wire ?
From what I've discerned, the sense wire used to control/regulate charging voltage is the one on the alternator. It doesn't use PCM supply voltage for charging system regulation or monitoring.
The gen com line tells the alternator what output level to charge at and the gen mon line tells the PCM what load is on the alternator. So long as the alternator reports that it's handling the load and not being loaded down (i.e. voltage isn't dropping below regulator set point) then the PCM finds nothing wrong with the charging system. I'd say the flaw in the way this all works is the alternator itself has to report to the PCM it's not keeping up with the load (not charging) for the battery light to come on. A broken part responsible for reporting it's broken, what can possibly go wrong with that?
Just my 2 cents on this "Smart" system
I think it was more of the control and sense were both saying "everything's working!" but the alternator wasn't actually putting out any current.
also Eric O, I've set up my pledge on Patreon to you, SMA for monthly payments :) love your videos again!
Dear Eric O. Your videos have helped me more on my 2010 crown vic police interceptor charging system than the two days at the dealership. I'm disabled because of being a mechanic, Injury while doing marine work. So I'm broke, a third of my check goes to child support
Otherwise I'd gladly send you a donation. Put it to you this way. This is the first car I've had in 6 years. But I build boats ,or did, worked for Rand McNeilous. On cement trucks ,and have 5q8 months electronics tech school
Of course that was 30 years ago
You've seen how thi us have changed. I'd trade ten crown vic police interceptor cars for my 73 satellite sport big block. Those days are gone. And the joy of automechanics went with my injury. But I can't even get the dealership to be truthful with me. It's funny cause when you and I have no ed on so to speak, cars will be all electric , and mostly drive themselves
Lol or sad? a bit of both perhaps. Anyway, thank you for the knowledge. Most unselfish of you. Peace
I would have expected some DTC's here...
not vehicle specific, but
Ford codes
P1244 - Alternator load input low,
P1245 - Alternator load input high ,
P1246 - Alternator load input failed
would seem to have been expected
Haha ! Awesome ! I JUST learned about Alternator in university about a week ago ! And I remember exactly what my teacher said about this smart charging system ( assuming we are talking about the same thing ) ! Its awesome to see it in practice what you learn in university. THanks for your videos !
What did he say?
@@northfloridafungi9336 i forgot 😅
@@thecosmy1 totally relatable. I start my senior year in exactly one week from now and I can't remember much of the 3 that got me here, I just remember there was a lot of writing, and college algebra made me cry and question my life
I think ihave that issue on grand marquis 2001😓
I have 12 - f250 6.0s in service right now. I would rather spend the extra hours in labor to 100% fix the problem vs having to keep towing and pulling a truck out of service 2, 3, 4, 5 times before a problem actually got fixed. Thank you for taking the time to make this video AND taking the time to make sure the truck was FIXED before it left the bay..
The PCM sends out PWM waveforms when a new setpoint is commanded. Otherwise its every 5 seconds. The sparodic PWM outputs are just to maintain that threshold.
I've got a 2010 acura It says check charging system
My Dad taught me how to rebuild alternators and starters when we had a 1980 Pontiac Bonneville station wagon, powered by an Oldsmobile 350ci diesel.
That monster ate a lot of alternators and starters.
But with systems like this, those DIY days are long gone.
I sell auto parts for a living, so I wanted to thank you for the information you give us. It helps me to be a better sales manager for my customers, I always want to keep them from loading up the parts shotgun and wasting their money.
So, Eric, Is there a way to put a volt meter across the battery and check for a bad alt? Possibly, with and without loads, and at different engine speeds? Do we really have to spend 1000's of dollars to see why our ford doesn't charge the battery????? Great vid!
DollyLama you can get a used vantage for a couple hundred bucks or a 4 channel chinese scope for like 6-700 with leads and accessories.
DollyLama It's easy to tell that the alternator isn't charging the battery, not quite so easy to tell whether it's because the alternator itself is toast or because the PCM is telling it not too.
I really don't like Ford..
I was reviewing your video after watching Advanced Level Auto...with another Eric as he was dealing with another ford with alternator issues, it was interesting that the system did not trigger any immediate warning about a bad charging issue. Did you gain any insight about how Ford triggers the warning light?
Hey Eric, have you given any thought to adding "SMA" T-Shirts and Hoodies to your Amazon store?
Your videos have too many comments, I'm unsubscribing!
The parameters in the ECM are probably not set low enough to turn on the money light which is probably a software problem
engineering flaw in all those crazy systems
Thanks for video I wish mechanics around me knew what they were doing. So far 2 have no idea what’s wrong with my 04 expedition 😢. I had a reman on for 2 years and no problems but now “check charging system” driving me crazy. Everyone tells me it must have a motorcraft on it or else. But for 2 years no problems and replaced with reman again because old reman was only putting out 13.2 all the time but now putting out 14 volts and buzzer randomly goes off and when it rains it’s 100%worse. WTH.
I absolutely loved this. I learned so much. Thank you Eric
Running the com line down and high and no change Intriguing definitely looks like the Entire system is functional looks like the alternator has gone bad Eric O good Video @SouthMainAutoRepairLLC
Eric I didn't know that Ford had smart charging systems. And now I have a better understanding of it. I've been doing mechanical work for nearly fifty years and with these new computer systems I'm having to learn something more every day thanks very much.
Advanced mechanics and electronics, didn't understand much of it, but was fascinated. Thank you.
2003 expedition battery light is on but alt is charging wtf? Help
Voltage regulator is going out in the alternator. It’s just not bad enough to not work at all but it will get there. Actually fairly common
Your a good man for doing the actual leg work for which the customer is paying for. Heck I used my Pico yesterday on a Mode door actuator and must say it was kinda neat seeing the command go to it and it's lack of reaction and was 100 percent it needed it.
Printed out the "princples of operation" or the POO. Must have been a real shitty job then eh? lol. Sorry my bad. It sounded funny at the time.
Haha
Computer bolted to an Alternator that runs well over 100 degree's C...what could possibly go wrong
I have had to replace several PCMs in Fords for charging problems, mostly mustangs for some reason, it will fry the alternator because, when the PCM charging circuit fails it full field the alternator and does ok until the alternator dies then some shop fixes only part of the issue and wonders why it keeps killing alternators:( and never a battery light either
FORDS ARE JUNK ANYWAYS LIKE DODGE
GOT 97 DODGE AND WHOLE THINGS CRAP RUST AND LEAKS
i know ya do these videos in advance, but a theory of why the light didn't come on... how about the body ground?
HOW ABOUT extremely bad trash engineering/ I HAVE A 1996 fORD f150 REPLACED 1 BATTERY AND 2 FUEL PUMPS OTHER THAN THAT ALL IS ORIGINAL
@@geraldsanford2411 whats bad about it? Ford has made millions more off it
The high charge state makes sense when the battery is under 14 volts and it was at 11 volts and now its communicating constantly a d wow just stopped communicating again interesting Eric O @SouthMainAutoRepairLLC
Thx Eric. I watch all your videos. I’m a shop owner and you sir are very gifted