The charging system has two circuits. Gen Com (GENRC)and Gen Mon(GENLI). Gen Com is the PCM commanding the alternator. The PCM pulls the voltage from the regulator low to generate the command signal . Gen Mon is basically the regulator talking to the PCM telling the PCM that it is doing what the PCM is commanding on Gen Com. The regulator pulls the voltage low from the PCM to generate the signal. If you short the Gen Com to the Gen Mon at the connector and look at your GENRC and GENLI data pids the values will be bouncing back and forth because the PCM is seeing itself. That lets you know the PCM and circuits are good. You're only seeing one coil in your voltage waveform, so you could have another coil wacking the PCM and causing a reset. You also need to set your voltage scale higher to see those flyback spikes. They are maxing out at 200 volts. Set to 400V. If they max out above 400V, you have an issue.
I would've liked to have seen the gen com when the issue occurs. It seems like the alternator was doing what it was told by the PCM so I'd assume when the misfire occurs the PCM is getting hit with higher voltage spikes, not knowing what to do and shutting down the alternator. That's my guess
In 2002, there was a TSB that said Ford claimed the voltage sense wire was too small of a gauge that would cause erratic charging. We soldered an additional wire in parallel and it solved the "several bad alternators" issue on the car we had.
I had a similar problem, my 944 Porsche would run all day, come night, battery was not being charged enough. Eventually found a small connector under the dash for the exciting volt had 2 strands of the wire hanging on, the rest of the (small ) wire broken. A quick splice and never a problem again. The 2 strands was enough current to charge during the day, but not enough at night with lights on.
I want to thank you for this video. I had similar issues with my 2007 Escape where the alternator would charge if I installed a freshly charged battery, but the next morning it wouldn't show it was charging and the battery would read 11.5 volts while running. I was about to take it to the Ford dealer for a $900 alternator replacement when I came across your video. I installed NKG plugs and the battery light went out and the alternator is charging normally now. You saved me a ton of money! What caused the battery light to come on in the first place was an engine light that came on after I put fuel injector cleaner into a tank that had about 2 gallons of gas in it (a mistake on my part). It caused the engine to misfire. I filled the tank and the engine light cleared away but the battery light kept coming on.
I had a old Dodge Ram D50 (Mitsubishi) that started eating voltage regulators (inside the alternator). First replaced with with guaranteed rebuilt alternator. That one did the same thing, and the next one. The voltage regulators either started overcharging OR no charging. So I pulled out my antiquated mechanic books bought in a secondhand bookstore (much needed because I am NO mechanic, but a fair electronic technician). Best checks led me to the ignition switch. 200 ohms in the RUN position. I believe in the old vehicles the charging indicator in the dash was actually a high current circuit fed from the alternator. With the ignition switch in series (increased by 200 ohms) the alternator was constantly charging at max output and never had a chance to rest and cool down. Hard enough for a non-mechanic like me. Love watching your videos.
Ivan is very good. His approach is the scientific method, you know proving stuff. That takes proper tools. If you want to determine if a mechanic can be trusted to solve a difficult electrical problem, ask to see his tool box. If you see a laptop, a thinktool, DMM, picoscope, lots of funky connectors, then he could be qualified. If you see a bottle of Jack Daniels and lots of air tools, maybe he can do pads and rotors or a control arm.
You don't need to find him. I do these fixes and there are a few solos that do it as well. People from shops will not spend time to fix it right because they move quick to make money. I do it as a hobby like Ivan does so we can afford to spend a bit more time, Ivan still needs to make money but with his TH-cam films, he offsets his cash flow.
My only complaint about Ivan's videos is that they're finished too quickly! I could watch them for hours! I love a good detectiove story and there's none better than watching this man and his craft. Thanks, Ivan.
Every problem has solution but few people are as willing as you to discover it. You deserve all the accolades that you receive! Congratulations for your dedication to success! Bravo!👏
Not a bad place to start (vehicle maintenance history), visual inspection of sp gap way off, there were no recorded misfires (owner did not mention it), misfire repeated while under load. The alternator not charging was the wild card.
This reminds me of the Ford 2003 and 2004 6.8L V10 engines in the (Los Angeles Dept of Water and Power) F350 1 ton utility vehicles I worked on in the early 2000's. The PCM code was for the Input Shaft Speed Sensor in the front of the transmission. Some of the vehicles came to our Main St shop from other shops. The speed sensor, the connector, wiring and tone ring were all good. After reading an article in IATN about a Chrysler minivan spark plug wire causing a misfire and that caused other electrical problems I decided to check the spark plugs. The vehicles are L.A. DWP City vehicles with LOTS of stop and go driving. ALL 10 plugs were worn down with over a .060 (60 thousandths) gap. 10 new plugs AND 10 new upgraded ign coils, all Motorcraft.......No more ISS code. Many of the 1 ton utility's came to our shop from other shops for the same Code and fix. The trucks would wear out plugs in as little as 35,000 miles. City driving and heavy loads will do that. Most never made it to 100,000 before changing parts. The 5.4L V8 2 valve engines would misfire with worn plugs at 80,000 to 100,000 miles. New plugs and coils and off they'd go. Good one Ivan, hope the neighbor appreciates what you've done!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Fifty years ago my Mum (a nurse) used a paper clip heated to red hot over the stove to burn a hole in my big toe's nail to release the blood pressure from a bad contusion. Sterile, quick, easy, but with a distinctive smell ; )
Glad it's fixed! First thing I thought of, when you linked the fault to a misfire, was either 1) misfire rocks engine -> trapped wire shorts or 2) trapped wire shorts -> misfire!
Ivan convinced me long ago that a scope is a must have tool, but as I only do this stuff part time on the side , I’m not willing to drop 3K for a 4 channel, which is what I want. Could a guy purchase way lower priced two 2 channel’s and use them in tandem and get all 4 channels on a single screen?
@@brianw8963 Get a DHO804 .. It can do everything you need. 4 channel. 25M deep memory, 12 bit vertical resolution. (EEvlog has a great hour long review of this thing and you can learn all about it-- it's less than four hundred bucks). This is the one I got.. after months of researching scopes. The only other one I would get is the pico.
Must be a ford thing. Reminds me of a video Eric o did a few years back. Had a Ford fusion that was turning on a light for an emissions related code. I don't remember the exact one. He did the testing and replaced the part but problem was still there. It would set the light as a certain rpm. He was getting ready to call an ecm. Thinking outside the box, problem occurs at 3000 rpm, what else happens at 3000 rpm. The power steering had a switch that activates at 3000 rpm. The switch was chattering, sending a signal back to the ecm that it could not process. As a result it would turn on the light for the emissions fault. He unplug the switch problem went away.
I remember that episode. It was an EVAP code if I remember correctly. It is also possible that a new ECM would have actually fixed it. That ECM may have had a (failed) circuit within it to deal with this dirty input chatter from the power steering pressure switch. I would have saved that power steering pressure switch and tried it in another vehicle, mostly for curiosity / fun.
Back in the early 2000's, my dad was convinced his Buick's transmission was toast. Turned out to be the plug wires, and he was past the recommended replacement mileage. I think the next couple of cars he had had neither the recommended internal or the issues when they weren't changed. I've heard that on some Fords, bad plugs can damage the engine computer! That would ruin your day!
I had an 85 FWD Cadillac Sedan deVille that had bad wires, making the transmission slam shift. I was convinced the trans was done the first time it happened. The bad wires were confirmed by going somewhere really dark, opening the hood and looking for sparks on the wires. The second time it happened I just replaced the wires again.
I suppose this is another reason to make sure that the scheduled maintenance (spark plug replacement) is done as scheduled ;-) Another great video, thanks for sharing
I work on my own vehicles my entire life, and worked as a mechanic for a while.. but i have been following Eric at south main for years.. thats how i found you. In a video he said where you were coming from. Turns out your about 35 minutes from me. I keep that in my mind, cause i know that if there's ever electrical i cant solve, your not far away 🙏 and you bet, I'll be coming to you.
AMAZING!! We are lucky to have these videos. Not that I'm a mechanic but I just love thinking about mechanical things and solving puzzles. Between you and Automotive Diagnostics & Programming If I were young I would be addicted and what to go into this line of work . . . I would of course have to be good enough at math to take electrical engineering in college. But when I was young I could lean anything I was interested in so I would be motivated to learn math better than I did 55 years ago. I was just a C student in math.
Regret? I am like the guy you described. I was fully motivated in these fields for automotive. I touched the ceiling professionally. Pierced it, went through it, surpassed the ceiling, won many recognitions, prizes, TV, newspapers, interviews. About 3,000 students later and about half a million vehicles fix later, still not rich. Great life, but not rich. On the other hand, a professional pot smoking customer asked for my help with his boat engine. This kid was from California. Bought three houses in Hawaii, two in NYC and was buying his second in Puerto Rico when I met him. All he did love was smoking marihuana. So he harvested. Sold the leaves for profit. It was the times of Melaleuca oil skyrocketing sales. So, in his mental trip, grabbed a bunch of branches and squeezed it. The rest of this multimillionaire is history. He invented THC. In the conversation he said he was not good in school. All C's.🤔
@@victorborges9523 I went into Landscaping and did pretty good. It's good work and pays well enough to retire on. If this guy you speak of thinks he invented THC he's smoked a few too may doobies
I get LOADS of Ford Focus with the 1.6 litre having a very similar problem. Usually those won't even charge at idle. The alternators on those are LIN controlled. One that came to me had 4 alternators before arrival. On those, it's an ignition lead that goes open at the coil pack end and radiates a massive EMF, scope shows negative 100V or so induced on the LIN signal wire. On some engines, the LIN wire runs at valve cover gasket level so is parallel and relatively close to the ignition leads. Most engine variants, the harness runs half way down the block, but those still get affected by the faulty ignition lead. There's never a misfire complaint though, I've even tried myself and not got a misfire under load. Ignition leads verified by simple continuity test, they're resistive leads so expect 1000-5000 ohms, but an open is a definite open - and an ignition lead set always fixes the charging fault, the original alternator works perfectly
Woah ! blew my mind twice this week. I just went thru an intermittent coolant leak that would never leak when I was looking at it. Replaced the expansion tank cap and no more leak.
I've found a electrical rebuild shop for my 50 yr old Lucas alternator. The shop immediately COMPLETELY disassembled and then replaced EVERYTHING. Everything works and has worked for a decade. Find a good shop and let them go to work.
I had a rebuilder do an alternator for me once too. It was a rare option high output alternator for an early 90's maxima and it was like $500 for a parts store one!! The shop rebuilt it in a day or two for like $100.
My uncle use to rebuild alternators. Rebuild kits were only. A few bucks Starters he says mechanic change all parts he said we repaired almost everything I said we live in the computer era reduce scrap recycle.
@@on-site4094 I got pretty lucky with mine... The stator burned up so it wasn't a quick fix with a voltage regulator or brushes. The shop I used is probably long gone now too.
I would never guess that a misfire would trip the battery light and not set a misfire in the data. Always appreciate your true detective stories. Well done.
YES, Bernie Thompson training, add redundant grounds to the ignition system and head for ignition specifically to battery for a sure path for the high voltage to return to ground and starter to battery for that system specifically for the same reason plus to help prevent magnetism within the block and trigger wheels specifically during a super high amp draw for the starter initial kick, cheers.
Years ago I built and tested computers. We did have a "Glitec" that we could not see because the capacitor of th scope remobed it. We could only see it when we used a cutrrent scope. You are very patient and excellent ar diagnosing!!
Love the videos, you're very methodical and persistent. Thought someone like you would wear the seat belt, here we have "click it or ticket" laws, they can pull you over for that alone. BUT I'm going to give up trying to get you to use them, it's not working. Stay safe out there buddy.
This is the kind of time consuming diagnostic that dealerships and most independent shops either won’t do or can’t do. So gratifying to watch this. I’ve seen some guys test new, supposed name brand plugs only to find out they are poorly made fakes. Ever had that experience?
I had a friends escape with the same symptoms. I tried about 3 different alternators. finally I though go with oem parts so I went to the dealer and was standing at the counter waiting for the parts guy when a ford tech came in for parts and he said let me guess you had an escape and it's over charging. don't tell this place I told you this but go to napa they only seem to be the ones beside oem parts that will work with this car. so I tried it and it actually work.
What the heck ? First thing i think about is Bernie Thompson at ATS. He had a "2003 Ford T Bird throttle defaulting" and car was going into limp mode because of spike when the AC coil turned off. Always enjoying to watch your videos. You've saved your neighbors for sure ! Many mechanics would go down the rabbit hole. Well done Bernie .. ops i mean Ivan 👍😂
I have followed you for some time now. You have taught me that I don't have a chance in hell of fixing any of this stuff, even if I had the $$ for all the equipment, where am I going to get the 10 years of knowledge to put it to good use. My next auto, when the present one dies, will be a 1964-1967 Mustang. It will have a 289 and C4 with a/c and steering. I'll pay a pretty penny for it, but still cheaper than buying a new car at $40-$60K and it will always be worth what I payed for it, no depreciation. I'm totally through with Check engine lights and a level of complexity that is beyond my talents to understand let alone repair. Keep up the good work , I wait for your videos like a kid on the stoop waiting for the ice cream man!
You have had some really weird case studies with coils and plugs. I would never have thought something like this could happen. Very difficult to find. Great job Ivan!!
Really nice work. Before getting started on repairs you may need to add checking spark plugs along side oil levels. Some of the basics are causing unrelated issues. Glad you didn’t have to swap out another alternator.
Amazing diagnostics. I have a 2007 Ford Escape, and you know they do are sensitive about spark plugs being on good condition, 50k is ok for these! 80-100k is pushing it. Also you customer /neighboor was lucky the PCM did not fried the coil drivers, because that is what happens on these years of Ford cars and SUV's, when the spark plug gap is to big, it damages the coil, shorts it out, then fries a driver. Happens on Fusions too which uses a similar PCM to the Ford Escape.
Nice work. I actually figured it out early. For electrons to flow across a gap air has to be ionized. If the gap is very wide, voltage has to build higher to make the jump. Add pressure from throttle opening and you can get a no spark situation. That results in a voltage spike on the trigger wire. Now. Why the computer can't tolerate that spike is another story. Great troubleshooting.
Nice Case Study for sure Have Never Seen Spark Plugs cause a No Charging Fault But after that many Alternators Figured it had to be something Else Great Diag for Sure
It's amazing how easily an ignition spike can cause so much havoc, mainly the 2 wire cop since the driver is inside the ECM. Nice catch, I bet you could've scoped the coils and seen the spikes in the PCM grounds, owers and potentially other circuits
Back in the olden days, I had a Ford that kept overcharging the battery. It drove me nuts trying to figure it out. New regulator didn't help. The battery got so overcharged it actually swelled up! I purchased a new battery and removed the ground cable and that's when I found the issue. The ground cable had a secondary lead coming out of the clamp and it attached to a fender bolt. This secondary lead had a butt connector that allowed one to connect it to the existing ground wire. When I was removing the clamp, the ground wire just fell out of the butt connector. So the problem all along was a bad ground. The bad ground caused the regulator to think the battery was not charged and it would keep allowing the alternator to supply a full charge to the battery.
This actually makes a good deal of sense. In the most Layman terms, when an inductive load cannot discharge where it is supposed to, it has to discharge somewhere else, and that inductive kick can make its way back to the PCM and set some logic chip bits in prohibitive states and stuff like this happens. It is also possible the PCM has a capacitor or something to deal with this, and that capacitor has failed. After all, its only 18 years old.
I had the same thought,a bad cap somewhere in the system driving the ecm or alt stuff wacky.The plug diagnosis though made me think.Feeling a slight miss fire when it's slight {fishbite} well you need to have learned that from experience.IVAN picked up on it right away.I do remember something about the ford wire years ago.My 1st thing to do,for issues ,is to look at ground wires,for corrosion.It's a habit now!!!haha
That was a very interesting case, but as you said that smart charging system it can disable the alternator s soon as a voltage spike is detected. You are the man when it comes to electrical gremlins. I looking forward to the next case.
Large spark plug gap is great....if the entire ignition system can handle the additional load on the system....as you saw the system could not handle the load and caused a lot of problems....the early GM LS engines originally had a .060 gap...then GM changed the spec to .045....wonder why !??
Great catch! Ive had worn plugs take out the PCM drivers for the coils i would imagine due to high primary voltage spikes. Nice place for an alternator for sure...
The Buick LeSabre ran and drove perfectly fine, one day the check engine light came on with a code for the fuel tank evap system, like you,,,, I do not like to install parts unless I am sure they are needed, After much inspection I could not find anything wrong with the evap system, and and after about three weeks, I was sitting in the car at night with the headlights on, and noticed that the lights were slightly flickering, so upon suspicion I tested the charging system, but could not seem to really find any fault with it, it charged good and the car never had any issues starting or with the functioning of anything. But because of the fact that I had noticed the lights flickering, I decided to replace the alternator, I found a nice looking one from a salvage yard that had remanufactured stickers on it for a really reasonable price and installed it. And the next day the check engine turned off on its own, and the code for the evap system never returned, until like about five years later when it actually developed a rust hole in the evap line.
Hi Ivan, very good catch! I never have seen a spark plug kill anything but the coil or make noise in the radio, naturally I have never had to work on these computer cars! I did see that the problem was load generated which does point at the ignition system. Rich
How did he determine that it was the plugs and not the coils causing the backfeed problem? I think I missed that part in the video. I love this channel, all kinds of weird issues 😂.
Hi, my spin on it, the plugs needed changing any way and it was missing under load indicating that something in the ignition was faulty. the spark plugs were the cheapest thing to try. the scope showed that the coils seemed to be charging fine. Rich@@SS-cc3km
I had the exact same issue with my 07 Montego. First replacement lasted 6 months, and the next two aftermarkets lasted like no more than a week.I put in " the last one" dealer remanned one from a Ford dealer in Montana about 6 years ago. It's still running. Going through receipts, it looks like I did indeed just happen to replace the sparkplugs when I did the last replacement! Before that I went through Yes they are a PIA to replace!
Wow! What a diagnosis’s! But as always you follow the clues, test, and verify. I would be surprised if very many techs would figure this one out. Not surprised you figured it out. Thanks for another great video.
I noticed the ABS light was on during your test drive . My 2007 Escape had the tone rings cracked on the front drive axles. I had lest than 25, 000 miles . The rings are very thin. Thanks for the great video's.
I'm not completely shocked. I just had a number of problems resolved on 2.4L Dodge by replacing the plugs. About 150k miles on them and looked it. 3 of the cylinders had misfires and I thought for sure the transmission was shot because it was intermittently shifting hard and always hard when the torque converter engaged. 4 new iridium plugs and the engine runs smooth as silk and the transmission works perfectly. I believe the lack of power was messing up the computer for shifting. I didn't have any battery charging issues though. At least not enough to trigger and codes or starting issues.
Daughter had an Escape that popped up all sorts of odd codes when a couple of the coil packs were failing. Replaced 4 original coil packs (2 had been done by PO) and it was cured. I chased the misfire before the odd codes as computer-controlled cars can do all manner of weird things with secondary ignition problems (and low battery problems.)
Good job Ivan! You're the man! I'll just about bet that anything of these sorts of problems like this one are sure to be met with intense scrutinizing!! Maybe I just need to take a ride down where you are at and have you solve some of my gremlins that I have on my 03 Jeep Grand Cherokee! I'm only about 2 hours away from you.
You collect weird cases, Ivan! I was still watching, but my first thought was: could it be an intermittent bad ground with engine shaking? Well, you proved me wrong :-) Go figure, bad plugs cause spikes that the electronics don't like - insane! That's why I love the old "dumb" alternators :-)
Eric at SMA had a vehicle with a faulty,pulsing power steering pressure sensor that caused an induction spike (pulsing DC mimicks AC current) inside the ECU that triggered a fault in another system. I recently got a Great Wall (2.4 petrol) that had a stumble, under part load, between 1500 and 2000rpm. Eliminated TPS,MAP and fuel (pulled great wot and high rpm). Pulled the plugs, no signs of issues, gap was good. Swapped a known good coil pack (4 port single unit) still had an issue. It was clearly an ignition stumble, so I changed the plugs out anyway.........problem solved. Now the vehicle it turns out, had always had a bit of flat spot at those rpm's..........and all of a sudden it developed a bad stumble. New plugs got rid of the stumble, and the long term,minor flat spot.
I've had alternators that would run great when the car is cold or in colder weather but as soon as a hot day came or you drove the car for more than 40 minutes alternator would always start acting up hard to diagnose I had another issue like that with the coil packs on a 4.0 Northstar Aurora the whole odd bank of packs would just misfire when the car warmed up.
I'm not sure that you definitely diagnosed this issue with a clearly proven fault Ivan, but your experience and gut feeling seemed to be spot on. Hopefully this issue won't return.
You are the man , this explained in detail the issues i was dealing with , very glad i found your video before doing a horrible alternator install x2 . Spark plugs and coil packs fixed my charging issue !
I wonder if a transient was causing the regulator down, which is not duplicated by pulling the monitor line low with a test light. Awesome job with the diagnosis.
Wow well done. It happened to me once with a Cadillac srx that the customer put Ford plugs in the car, and there it happened to me that the charging was not good and the command to two injectors would stop intermittently and there were even two injectors that broke down... really crazy.
The coil on plug spark event using PCM IGBT drive will be a broad band spectrum energy burst (a spark) with most of the energy content composed of higher frequencies. This is why there is an coil on plug ignition noise capacitor connected between the coil power and the engine (block). The spark current flows across the spark event at the plug through the head and block to the capacitor into the +12V ignition rail and through the coil on plug auto transformer (coil) and back to the plug. Because of the high frequency content of this current we are interested in the circuit impedance and not just resistance. Ideally for a V6 engine what we would like to see is a noise capacitor per bank while minimizing the wire lengths (minimizing inductance) from +12V ignition power feeding the coils and to the head ground. If these capacitor(s) are not present the return current path is through the battery with higher impedance and creates more radio interference on old style AM car radios. The wiring diagram in the video shows only one ignition noise capacitor present for the entire engine. I don't know who drew the wiring diagram but the ignition coil symbol is completely wrong. The +12V coil power is not on the same winding as the spark plug. The PCM ignition IGBTs should have an active clamp at around 410V flyback inductive spike ground referenced. So, as Ivan said we need to protect the Picoscope channel input circuit up to this 410V event. Whenever the IGBT collector is subject to 410V the device will turn on, so essential the IGBT active clamp will protect the Picoscope. To get the best fidelity on the PCM ignition output at the connector it is best to use a Pico Technology high voltage differential probe with minimal lead lengths, twist the leads and terminate at the module connector piercing banana probes. I use my Picoscope different from Ivan for road tests. I try and get the best fidelity out of the measurements to record noise free signal captures by minimizing lead lengths and using active probes where possible because I have to include them in customer reports which are scrutinized many times by customer engineers, and they like to shoot the messenger. Also, I put the Picoscope in a cool place under hood and just run a long USB cable into the passenger compartment. Ivan has the advantage over me in that he does not have to write detailed reports based on high fidelity test measurements. If you do the statistical analysis on the coil on plug inductive ignition multi-strike strategies, you will find that you get the most benefit of a second spark at or close to the same dwell current as the first spark. When you have more than two sparks and you sacrifice dwell current (spark energy) the benefits are actually less. I actually worked with the engineer that did this analysis which took about a year to complete. Most of the delays where in getting prototype coils made and potted and then taking data on the dyno, much of it in a cold chamber to simulate winter conditions. The strategy was completed in about a month which included bench testing. Above a certain RPM, depending on the engine, you do not need to multi-strike because the cylinder swirl and tumble is so extreme that even a weak spark will create a flame kernel. If you make a head out of see through plastic you can actually see the ignition flame front with a high speed camera. The head won't last long but you only really need to do a few slow dyno pulls to capture all of the footage. To lose ignition the PCM is in reset. Something either cut power to the PCM or the PCM digital core experienced a processing exception. After the exception the PCM booted, synched and continued engine strategy which took about 200ms. I think it is power related because a processor core exception would easily recover in under 100ms. Perhaps monitor PCM +12V module power to see the power disruption. Ideally we would like to look at the microprocessor reset pin. When we look at noise at the PCM the basic assumption from the engineers is the ignition coil noise capacitors and wiring is good. This marginal spark noise problem resetting the PCM could be caused by aging capacitors. I have argued at length of how the PCM power rails should be stiffer meaning better coverage in power rail impedance over frequency so as to reject these ignition no spark or high noise events. So, perhaps recap the PCM and maybe add some capacitance having low ESR for the critical power rails, which are 5V, 3.3V and I believe 1.8V. We need to ask ourselves why is the PCM so sensitive to an ignition misfire caused by an over gap? Gen Mon as an alternator single ended active low single wire duty cycle signal will have a low side driver in the alternator with the pull up in the PCM which will probably have two protection diodes fed by +12V PCM power. So the recessive state will have a voltage of PCM power minus two diode drops. This is what I remember. The alternator will have a default strategy when the PCM Gen Com drops out.
I don't think our Mercury cars have smart charging systems. I am wanting to say on the Panther Platform cars smart charging started in 2006. In all the years I have been driving a car, I have NEVER gone to an auto parts store for a starter or alternator. I recently had the alternator on the 'ol Marquis rebuilt and was told by the tech that there were diodes that were bad. He told me VERY emphatically NOT to get rid of the voltage regulator because you can't get another one. At almost 500,000 miles it still had the original voltage regulator. GREAT VIDEO!
Still think you need a customer reaction video. Imagine the reaction for not charging and you replaced spark plugs. "That's not why I brought it in for" ;)
NO, NO, NO ! Just imagine the customer face when told: the spk plgs gap was incorrect. It created a high voltage spike that tripped: the alternator charging. 😮 The technical part is easy. Dealing with this planet humans: PRICELESS
Brilliant diagnosis mate! 😃👍! Gotta think outside the box sometimes with all the electrickery going on under the bonnet of modern cars! Hey your left thumbmail! - OUCH!!!! Car door? Rat trap? Looks like that hurt! D'oh!
I think your smoking gun was that first capture on the test drive.. Where you showed the voltage spikes on the PWM signal from the alt.. You could literally see the spike on the square wave. Pretty crazy. I just wonder if it was actually arching/shorting on the alt wire somewhere in the harness-- or if it was actually back feeding to the PCM through the coil control wire? Very cool capture. (17:50)
I am thinking computer buss was pushed so hard trying to fire coils and throw spark across that chasm of a spark plug gap that something else had to lay down, having lost proper bias. Bias is everything to a semiconductors p/n junction. In this instance, alternator control took the hit. I'd have to see board layout and chip diagrams to nail down why. If they used opto-isolators attempting to serve low impedance loads [less than 300k or so], I have seen funny faults in the past: an overcurrent extendig past 30 minutes would fail an output on - wide open, 100%, no reset possible. Anyway, the problem of half baked designs usually revolves around failure to analyze current requirements and associated fault tolerances. Could be weak system analysis by Ford, or could be faulty spec sheets on chips selected.
@@flinch622 The problem is that the coil charges up and then it wants to arch to ground when it collapses.. But if that ground is too far away for the arch to jump, then it doesn't have anywhere to go, so it winds up back feeding into the ECM.. Most circuits will account for this by adding a diode or even a resistor across it, so that when it collapses, it can just jump to ground across that resistor/ diode.. or however else they choose to filter it. But for spark plugs, they specifically don't add that filter because they want it to jump across the spark plug and no where else. So I can understand why the internal circuits don't have a typical filter to prevent this back feed.. because it might cause misfires sometimes, by allowing your spark to "choose" it's path to ground. So anyway, as long as you run good plugs, it won't ever be a problem. It's still a weird rabbit hole that it leads you down
It just keeps getting crazier and crazier. Diagnose Dan had a car disabled because of the door handle and now you have a dead alternator because of excessive spark plug gap. What's next? TPMS sensors making the vehicle overheat? This is unbelievable.
The charging system has two circuits. Gen Com (GENRC)and Gen Mon(GENLI). Gen Com is the PCM commanding the alternator. The PCM pulls the voltage from the regulator low to generate the command signal . Gen Mon is basically the regulator talking to the PCM telling the PCM that it is doing what the PCM is commanding on Gen Com. The regulator pulls the voltage low from the PCM to generate the signal. If you short the Gen Com to the Gen Mon at the connector and look at your GENRC and GENLI data pids the values will be bouncing back and forth because the PCM is seeing itself. That lets you know the PCM and circuits are good. You're only seeing one coil in your voltage waveform, so you could have another coil wacking the PCM and causing a reset.
You also need to set your voltage scale higher to see those flyback spikes. They are maxing out at 200 volts. Set to 400V. If they max out above 400V, you have an issue.
Great explanation
ripple current from failed elctrolytic capacitors in the ECM?
Makes sense! Had to think about that scale for a second. Thanks.
I would've liked to have seen the gen com when the issue occurs. It seems like the alternator was doing what it was told by the PCM so I'd assume when the misfire occurs the PCM is getting hit with higher voltage spikes, not knowing what to do and shutting down the alternator. That's my guess
In 2002, there was a TSB that said Ford claimed the voltage sense wire was too small of a gauge that would cause erratic charging. We soldered an additional wire in parallel and it solved the "several bad alternators" issue on the car we had.
I had a similar problem, my 944 Porsche would run all day, come night, battery was not being charged enough. Eventually found a small connector under the dash for the exciting volt had 2 strands of the wire hanging on, the rest of the (small ) wire broken. A quick splice and never a problem again. The 2 strands was enough current to charge during the day, but not enough at night with lights on.
Voltage sense wire "should" have virtually zero current and therefore size shouldn't matter.
@@D2O2should be high impedence on a voltage sensor
This man is a straight up Genius!. The troubleshooting and the stuff he solves is remarkable.
I want to thank you for this video. I had similar issues with my 2007 Escape where the alternator would charge if I installed a freshly charged battery, but the next morning it wouldn't show it was charging and the battery would read 11.5 volts while running. I was about to take it to the Ford dealer for a $900 alternator replacement when I came across your video. I installed NKG plugs and the battery light went out and the alternator is charging normally now. You saved me a ton of money! What caused the battery light to come on in the first place was an engine light that came on after I put fuel injector cleaner into a tank that had about 2 gallons of gas in it (a mistake on my part). It caused the engine to misfire. I filled the tank and the engine light cleared away but the battery light kept coming on.
I had a old Dodge Ram D50 (Mitsubishi) that started eating voltage regulators (inside the alternator). First replaced with with guaranteed rebuilt alternator. That one did the same thing, and the next one. The voltage regulators either started overcharging OR no charging. So I pulled out my antiquated mechanic books bought in a secondhand bookstore (much needed because I am NO mechanic, but a fair electronic technician). Best checks led me to the ignition switch. 200 ohms in the RUN position. I believe in the old vehicles the charging indicator in the dash was actually a high current circuit fed from the alternator. With the ignition switch in series (increased by 200 ohms) the alternator was constantly charging at max output and never had a chance to rest and cool down. Hard enough for a non-mechanic like me. Love watching your videos.
I have never met or seen another mechanic attack problems with the approach that you take. Love your videos and always look forward to the next one.
I love how you stick with it till it’s fixed awesome😊
Ivan is very good. His approach is the scientific method, you know proving stuff. That takes proper tools. If you want to determine if a mechanic can be trusted to solve a difficult electrical problem, ask to see his tool box. If you see a laptop, a thinktool, DMM, picoscope, lots of funky connectors, then he could be qualified. If you see a bottle of Jack Daniels and lots of air tools, maybe he can do pads and rotors or a control arm.
@@harrylister804 Yes this is true but I saw a diagnostic guy that couldn't plug a tire.
You defeat some of the weirdest automotive problems. I wish I didn’t live 1,400 miles away.
You don't need to find him. I do these fixes and there are a few solos that do it as well. People from shops will not spend time to fix it right because they move quick to make money. I do it as a hobby like Ivan does so we can afford to spend a bit more time, Ivan still needs to make money but with his TH-cam films, he offsets his cash flow.
@@scientist100 film?
I KNOW, scientist.. I love these crazy diag videos. Make some!
@@metoon3092 indeed, film...
I'm sure Ivan charges accordingly. It takes as long as it takes for weird issues.
My only complaint about Ivan's videos is that they're finished too quickly! I could watch them for hours! I love a good detectiove story and there's none better than watching this man and his craft. Thanks, Ivan.
I do love to share the mysteries 😄
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics hahaa
In your case Ivan, it's not "Murder She Wrote' but "Misfire He Fixed!"
Every problem has solution but few people are as willing as you to discover it. You deserve all the accolades that you receive! Congratulations for your dedication to success! Bravo!👏
I swear people will look at you crazy after this case study. Job well done.
This reminds me of the old days, start off with new plugs and wires and go from there. Great catch Ivan.
Not a bad place to start (vehicle maintenance history), visual inspection of sp gap way off, there were no recorded misfires (owner did not mention it), misfire repeated while under load. The alternator not charging was the wild card.
I have watched nearly every video you have ever made.....and this is the most unusual I have ever seen. GREAT JOB ! Best diagnostic tech in America.
Just recovered from smashing my thumb in a car door, I feel your pain!
I noticed that too and saw he had the ole hole drilled into it to relieve the pressure.
This reminds me of the Ford 2003 and 2004 6.8L V10 engines in the (Los Angeles Dept of Water and Power) F350 1 ton utility vehicles I worked on in the early 2000's.
The PCM code was for the Input Shaft Speed Sensor in the front of the transmission.
Some of the vehicles came to our Main St shop from other shops.
The speed sensor, the connector, wiring and tone ring were all good.
After reading an article in IATN about a Chrysler minivan spark plug wire causing a misfire and that caused other electrical problems I decided to check the spark plugs. The vehicles are L.A. DWP City vehicles with LOTS of stop and go driving.
ALL 10 plugs were worn down with over a .060 (60 thousandths) gap.
10 new plugs AND 10 new upgraded ign coils, all Motorcraft.......No more ISS code.
Many of the 1 ton utility's came to our shop from other shops for the same Code and fix.
The trucks would wear out plugs in as little as 35,000 miles. City driving and heavy loads will do that. Most never made it to 100,000 before changing parts.
The 5.4L V8 2 valve engines would misfire with worn plugs at 80,000 to 100,000 miles. New plugs and coils and off they'd go.
Good one Ivan, hope the neighbor appreciates what you've done!
Noticed the 1mm drill hole in your left thumb Ivan, THE only way to burst a blood blister!! Well done 👍😂
Unfortunately nothing came out...damaged the nail even further haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Fifty years ago my Mum (a nurse) used a paper clip heated to red hot over the stove to burn a hole in my big toe's nail to release the blood pressure from a bad contusion. Sterile, quick, easy, but with a distinctive smell ; )
Glad it's fixed! First thing I thought of, when you linked the fault to a misfire, was either
1) misfire rocks engine -> trapped wire shorts
or
2) trapped wire shorts -> misfire!
You’re the reason I have a scope by the way. Thank you
From Vermont
I bought one too.. Still haven't needed to use it yet.
Ivan convinced me long ago that a scope is a must have tool, but as I only do this stuff part time on the side , I’m not willing to drop 3K for a 4 channel, which is what I want. Could a guy purchase way lower priced two 2 channel’s and use them in tandem and get all 4 channels on a single screen?
@@brianw8963 Get a DHO804 .. It can do everything you need. 4 channel. 25M deep memory, 12 bit vertical resolution. (EEvlog has a great hour long review of this thing and you can learn all about it-- it's less than four hundred bucks). This is the one I got.. after months of researching scopes. The only other one I would get is the pico.
@@brianw8963 I got the dho804 .. watch 'EEvlogs video about it.
Must be a ford thing. Reminds me of a video Eric o did a few years back. Had a Ford fusion that was turning on a light for an emissions related code. I don't remember the exact one. He did the testing and replaced the part but problem was still there. It would set the light as a certain rpm. He was getting ready to call an ecm. Thinking outside the box, problem occurs at 3000 rpm, what else happens at 3000 rpm. The power steering had a switch that activates at 3000 rpm. The switch was chattering, sending a signal back to the ecm that it could not process. As a result it would turn on the light for the emissions fault. He unplug the switch problem went away.
I remember that episode. It was an EVAP code if I remember correctly.
It is also possible that a new ECM would have actually fixed it. That ECM may have had a (failed) circuit within it to deal with this dirty input chatter from the power steering pressure switch. I would have saved that power steering pressure switch and tried it in another vehicle, mostly for curiosity / fun.
that was an EPIC diagnosis by Eric.......although Keith the wizard from NYC gave him some wise advice "what activates at 3000rpm"?
Back in the early 2000's, my dad was convinced his Buick's transmission was toast. Turned out to be the plug wires, and he was past the recommended replacement mileage. I think the next couple of cars he had had neither the recommended internal or the issues when they weren't changed. I've heard that on some Fords, bad plugs can damage the engine computer! That would ruin your day!
A bad rpm sensor in ,I think, the alternator can ruin an automatic transmission in a Ford diesel truck from the late 1990s and early 2000s..
I had an 85 FWD Cadillac Sedan deVille that had bad wires, making the transmission slam shift. I was convinced the trans was done the first time it happened. The bad wires were confirmed by going somewhere really dark, opening the hood and looking for sparks on the wires. The second time it happened I just replaced the wires again.
I suppose this is another reason to make sure that the scheduled maintenance (spark plug replacement) is done as scheduled ;-) Another great video, thanks for sharing
I work on my own vehicles my entire life, and worked as a mechanic for a while.. but i have been following Eric at south main for years.. thats how i found you. In a video he said where you were coming from. Turns out your about 35 minutes from me. I keep that in my mind, cause i know that if there's ever electrical i cant solve, your not far away 🙏 and you bet, I'll be coming to you.
AMAZING!! We are lucky to have these videos. Not that I'm a mechanic but I just love thinking about mechanical things and solving puzzles. Between you and Automotive Diagnostics & Programming If I were young I would be addicted and what to go into this line of work . . . I would of course have to be good enough at math to take electrical engineering in college. But when I was young I could lean anything I was interested in so I would be motivated to learn math better than I did 55 years ago. I was just a C student in math.
Regret?
I am like the guy you described. I was fully motivated in these fields for automotive. I touched the ceiling professionally. Pierced it, went through it, surpassed the ceiling, won many recognitions, prizes, TV, newspapers, interviews. About 3,000 students later and about half a million vehicles fix later, still not rich.
Great life, but not rich. On the other hand, a professional pot smoking customer asked for my help with his boat engine. This kid was from California. Bought three houses in Hawaii, two in NYC and was buying his second in Puerto Rico when I met him. All he did love was smoking marihuana. So he harvested. Sold the leaves for profit. It was the times of Melaleuca oil skyrocketing sales. So, in his mental trip, grabbed a bunch of branches and squeezed it. The rest of this multimillionaire is history. He invented THC. In the conversation he said he was not good in school. All C's.🤔
@@victorborges9523 I went into Landscaping and did pretty good. It's good work and pays well enough to retire on. If this guy you speak of thinks he invented THC he's smoked a few too may doobies
Its the circus of circuits that have a built in shut down! Nice work Ivan!
I get LOADS of Ford Focus with the 1.6 litre having a very similar problem.
Usually those won't even charge at idle.
The alternators on those are LIN controlled.
One that came to me had 4 alternators before arrival.
On those, it's an ignition lead that goes open at the coil pack end and radiates a massive EMF, scope shows negative 100V or so induced on the LIN signal wire.
On some engines, the LIN wire runs at valve cover gasket level so is parallel and relatively close to the ignition leads.
Most engine variants, the harness runs half way down the block, but those still get affected by the faulty ignition lead.
There's never a misfire complaint though, I've even tried myself and not got a misfire under load.
Ignition leads verified by simple continuity test, they're resistive leads so expect 1000-5000 ohms, but an open is a definite open - and an ignition lead set always fixes the charging fault, the original alternator works perfectly
Woah ! blew my mind twice this week. I just went thru an intermittent coolant leak that would never leak when I was looking at it. Replaced the expansion tank cap and no more leak.
So the ignition coils were acting like a emp bomb and disrupting the PCM. Good find!!!
I've found a electrical rebuild shop for my 50 yr old Lucas alternator. The shop immediately COMPLETELY disassembled and then replaced EVERYTHING. Everything works and has worked for a decade.
Find a good shop and let them go to work.
I had a rebuilder do an alternator for me once too. It was a rare option high output alternator for an early 90's maxima and it was like $500 for a parts store one!! The shop rebuilt it in a day or two for like $100.
My local one didn't survive the covid shutdown, or the machine shop next door to them.
My uncle use to rebuild alternators. Rebuild kits were only. A few bucks Starters he says mechanic change all parts he said we repaired almost everything I said we live in the computer era reduce scrap recycle.
@@on-site4094 I got pretty lucky with mine... The stator burned up so it wasn't a quick fix with a voltage regulator or brushes.
The shop I used is probably long gone now too.
@@robertsmith2956 All part of the plan(demic)
I would never guess that a misfire would trip the battery light and not set a misfire in the data. Always appreciate your true detective stories. Well done.
YES, Bernie Thompson training, add redundant grounds to the ignition system and head for ignition specifically to battery for a sure path for the high voltage to return to ground and starter to battery for that system specifically for the same reason plus to help prevent magnetism within the block and trigger wheels specifically during a super high amp draw for the starter initial kick, cheers.
Years ago I built and tested computers. We did have a "Glitec" that we could not see because the capacitor of th scope remobed it. We could only see it when we used a cutrrent scope. You are very patient and excellent ar diagnosing!!
Love the videos, you're very methodical and persistent. Thought someone like you would wear the seat belt, here we have "click it or ticket" laws, they can pull you over for that alone. BUT I'm going to give up trying to get you to use them, it's not working. Stay safe out there buddy.
This is the kind of time consuming diagnostic that dealerships and most independent shops either won’t do or can’t do. So gratifying to watch this.
I’ve seen some guys test new, supposed name brand plugs only to find out they are poorly made fakes. Ever had that experience?
I had a friends escape with the same symptoms. I tried about 3 different alternators. finally I though go with oem parts so I went to the dealer and was standing at the counter waiting for the parts guy when a ford tech came in for parts and he said let me guess you had an escape and it's over charging. don't tell this place I told you this but go to napa they only seem to be the ones beside oem parts that will work with this car. so I tried it and it actually work.
What the heck ? First thing i think about is Bernie Thompson at ATS. He had a "2003 Ford T Bird throttle defaulting" and car was going into limp mode because of spike when the AC coil turned off. Always enjoying to watch your videos. You've saved your neighbors for sure ! Many mechanics would go down the rabbit hole. Well done Bernie .. ops i mean Ivan 👍😂
I have followed you for some time now. You have taught me that I don't have a chance in hell of fixing any of this stuff, even if I had the $$ for all the equipment, where am I going to get the 10 years of knowledge to put it to good use. My next auto, when the present one dies, will be a 1964-1967 Mustang. It will have a 289 and C4 with a/c and steering. I'll pay a pretty penny for it, but still cheaper than buying a new car at $40-$60K and it will always be worth what I payed for it, no depreciation. I'm totally through with Check engine lights and a level of complexity that is beyond my talents to understand let alone repair. Keep up the good work , I wait for your videos like a kid on the stoop waiting for the ice cream man!
Great diagnostic skills mate. This is what happens now with sneak circuits, EMI/RFI and all the microprocessors in the cars.
You have had some really weird case studies with coils and plugs. I would never have thought something like this could happen. Very difficult to find. Great job Ivan!!
Well, and the only time this issue might come up is where the owner neglects routine maintenance - making this scenario extremely rare.
Kind of reminds me of that Subaru with the junk cheap coils !!
12:00 purple thumb.... been there, done that lol! Great vid, sir ivan!!!!
the way you diagnose cars is definitely a God given talent. you’ve changed my perspective on diagnostics completely 😅
Really nice work. Before getting started on repairs you may need to add checking spark plugs along side oil levels. Some of the basics are causing unrelated issues. Glad you didn’t have to swap out another alternator.
Amazing diagnostics. I have a 2007 Ford Escape, and you know they do are sensitive about spark plugs being on good condition, 50k is ok for these! 80-100k is pushing it. Also you customer /neighboor was lucky the PCM did not fried the coil drivers, because that is what happens on these years of Ford cars and SUV's, when the spark plug gap is to big, it damages the coil, shorts it out, then fries a driver. Happens on Fusions too which uses a similar PCM to the Ford Escape.
My goodness! Well, it speaks volumes of your diagnostic style and skill set!
This information needs to stay in my memory bank. Great diag and resolution
Great diagnosis on the miss fire that causing the smart charging system to fail.
Nice work. I actually figured it out early. For electrons to flow across a gap air has to be ionized. If the gap is very wide, voltage has to build higher to make the jump. Add pressure from throttle opening and you can get a no spark situation. That results in a voltage spike on the trigger wire. Now. Why the computer can't tolerate that spike is another story. Great troubleshooting.
Ivan. Once again I'm astonished by the fix! You never seem to amaze me. Thank you.
I didn't believe it either...almost like that weird Subaru lol
One of the coolest diag videos yet. Super wierd. Nicely done, sir. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
Yes mind-blowing. But also mind blowing how those coils held up
Nice Case Study for sure Have Never Seen Spark Plugs cause a No Charging Fault But after that many Alternators Figured it had to be something Else Great Diag for Sure
Crazy ...Great diagnosis ..and it appears new plugs properly gapped was the cure...Kudos
Ivan, That is what you get with talented technicians!
Awesome build! That's way more elegant than I thought it would be.
It's amazing how easily an ignition spike can cause so much havoc, mainly the 2 wire cop since the driver is inside the ECM. Nice catch, I bet you could've scoped the coils and seen the spikes in the PCM grounds, owers and potentially other circuits
Back in the olden days, I had a Ford that kept overcharging the battery. It drove me nuts trying to figure it out. New regulator didn't help. The battery got so overcharged it actually swelled up! I purchased a new battery and removed the ground cable and that's when I found the issue. The ground cable had a secondary lead coming out of the clamp and it attached to a fender bolt. This secondary lead had a butt connector that allowed one to connect it to the existing ground wire. When I was removing the clamp, the ground wire just fell out of the butt connector. So the problem all along was a bad ground. The bad ground caused the regulator to think the battery was not charged and it would keep allowing the alternator to supply a full charge to the battery.
I've been trying to tell customers to fix the battery cables...nooooo....they are not the problem. It's a bad battery...😅😅😅
This actually makes a good deal of sense. In the most Layman terms, when an inductive load cannot discharge where it is supposed to, it has to discharge somewhere else, and that inductive kick can make its way back to the PCM and set some logic chip bits in prohibitive states and stuff like this happens. It is also possible the PCM has a capacitor or something to deal with this, and that capacitor has failed. After all, its only 18 years old.
I had the same thought,a bad cap somewhere in the system driving the ecm or alt stuff wacky.The plug diagnosis though made me think.Feeling a slight miss fire when it's slight {fishbite} well you need to have learned that from experience.IVAN picked up on it right away.I do remember something about the ford wire years ago.My 1st thing to do,for issues ,is to look at ground wires,for corrosion.It's a habit now!!!haha
That was a very interesting case, but as you said that smart charging system it can disable the alternator s soon as a voltage spike is detected. You are the man when it comes to electrical gremlins. I looking forward to the next case.
I could have sworn my gas stove was the problem. Good catch.
5 alternators? wow thats crazy. i like rockauto too and get my parts from them also. you have very good diagnostic skills.
Large spark plug gap is great....if the entire ignition system can handle the additional load on the system....as you saw the system could not handle the load and caused a lot of problems....the early GM LS engines originally had a
.060 gap...then GM changed the spec to .045....wonder why !??
Great catch! Ive had worn plugs take out the PCM drivers for the coils i would imagine due to high primary voltage spikes. Nice place for an alternator for sure...
The Buick LeSabre ran and drove perfectly fine, one day the check engine light came on with a code for the fuel tank evap system, like you,,,, I do not like to install parts unless I am sure they are needed,
After much inspection I could not find anything wrong with the evap system, and and after about three weeks, I was sitting in the car at night with the headlights on, and noticed that the lights were slightly flickering, so upon suspicion I tested the charging system, but could not seem to really find any fault with it, it charged good and the car never had any issues starting or with the functioning of anything. But because of the fact that I had noticed the lights flickering, I decided to replace the alternator, I found a nice looking one from a salvage yard that had remanufactured stickers on it for a really reasonable price and installed it.
And the next day the check engine turned off on its own, and the code for the evap system never returned, until like about five years later when it actually developed a rust hole in the evap line.
Hi Ivan, very good catch! I never have seen a spark plug kill anything but the coil or make noise in the radio, naturally I have never had to work on these computer cars! I did see that the problem was load generated which does point at the ignition system.
Rich
How did he determine that it was the plugs and not the coils causing the backfeed problem? I think I missed that part in the video. I love this channel, all kinds of weird issues 😂.
Hi, my spin on it, the plugs needed changing any way and it was missing under load indicating that something in the ignition was faulty. the spark plugs were the cheapest thing to try. the scope showed that the coils seemed to be charging fine.
Rich@@SS-cc3km
Yes, sir. Another amazing video. I had no idea that plugs could cause this. That's why I am here to learn.
I had the exact same issue with my 07 Montego. First replacement lasted 6 months, and the next two aftermarkets lasted like no more than a week.I put in " the last one" dealer remanned one from a Ford dealer in Montana about 6 years ago. It's still running. Going through receipts, it looks like I did indeed just happen to replace the sparkplugs when I did the last replacement! Before that I went through Yes they are a PIA to replace!
Wouldn't be surprised if the ignition issue caused the first alternator overcharging problem. Good detective work Ivan.
Wow! What a diagnosis’s! But as always you follow the clues, test, and verify. I would be surprised if very many techs would figure this one out. Not surprised you figured it out. Thanks for another great video.
Wow crazy case study, Thanks for sharing! I don't understand why you lost ignition coil ramps if it was bad spark plugs?
I noticed the ABS light was on during your test drive . My 2007 Escape had the tone rings cracked on the front drive axles. I had lest than 25, 000 miles . The rings are very thin. Thanks for the great video's.
Some monkey damaged a rear tone ring during a bearing replacement :(
I'm not completely shocked. I just had a number of problems resolved on 2.4L Dodge by replacing the plugs. About 150k miles on them and looked it. 3 of the cylinders had misfires and I thought for sure the transmission was shot because it was intermittently shifting hard and always hard when the torque converter engaged. 4 new iridium plugs and the engine runs smooth as silk and the transmission works perfectly. I believe the lack of power was messing up the computer for shifting. I didn't have any battery charging issues though. At least not enough to trigger and codes or starting issues.
Daughter had an Escape that popped up all sorts of odd codes when a couple of the coil packs were failing. Replaced 4 original coil packs (2 had been done by PO) and it was cured. I chased the misfire before the odd codes as computer-controlled cars can do all manner of weird things with secondary ignition problems (and low battery problems.)
Good job Ivan! You're the man! I'll just about bet that anything of these sorts of problems like this one are sure to be
met with intense scrutinizing!! Maybe I just need to take a ride down where you are at and have you solve some of my
gremlins that I have on my 03 Jeep Grand Cherokee! I'm only about 2 hours away from you.
Incredible scenario and even better diagnosis and theory proven. Well done Ivan. Always learning from you.
Being that we're only 2 minutes from the end of the video I vote that, YES, it'll be the spark plugs!
Brilliant technical video. Love it 👍🏻
You collect weird cases, Ivan! I was still watching, but my first thought was: could it be an intermittent bad ground with engine shaking? Well, you proved me wrong :-)
Go figure, bad plugs cause spikes that the electronics don't like - insane! That's why I love the old "dumb" alternators :-)
Another brilliant tutorial. It'll take me a week though to work that one out.
The value of a good test drive. Great job Ivan!
Wow.. Ford, Fix Or Repair Daily.. Nice work Ivan!
Eric at SMA had a vehicle with a faulty,pulsing power steering pressure sensor that caused an induction spike (pulsing DC mimicks AC current) inside the ECU that triggered a fault in another system. I recently got a Great Wall (2.4 petrol) that had a stumble, under part load, between 1500 and 2000rpm. Eliminated TPS,MAP and fuel (pulled great wot and high rpm). Pulled the plugs, no signs of issues, gap was good. Swapped a known good coil pack (4 port single unit) still had an issue. It was clearly an ignition stumble, so I changed the plugs out anyway.........problem solved. Now the vehicle it turns out, had always had a bit of flat spot at those rpm's..........and all of a sudden it developed a bad stumble. New plugs got rid of the stumble, and the long term,minor flat spot.
I love your video's, but I'm always a bit sad when there is no bonus footage...😢
I've had alternators that would run great when the car is cold or in colder weather but as soon as a hot day came or you drove the car for more than 40 minutes alternator would always start acting up hard to diagnose I had another issue like that with the coil packs on a 4.0 Northstar Aurora the whole odd bank of packs would just misfire when the car warmed up.
I'm not sure that you definitely diagnosed this issue with a clearly proven fault Ivan, but your experience and gut feeling seemed to be spot on. Hopefully this issue won't return.
I'm Betting on Ivan being 110% correct with his "Gut Feeling".
Wow Ivan. Mind blown on this one.
You are the man , this explained in detail the issues i was dealing with , very glad i found your video before doing a horrible alternator install x2 . Spark plugs and coil packs fixed my charging issue !
Good ole ignition induced issues. Those are always fun. Like the ford truck I had that would set a programming fault code lol
Thanks!
Never seen that before.
Who would have thought spark plug gaps, could kill an alternator feed.
You solved another riddle
I wonder if a transient was causing the regulator down, which is not duplicated by pulling the monitor line low with a test light. Awesome job with the diagnosis.
Superb diagnosis !
Wow!! Crazy stuff! Good job on the diagnosis. 👍
Brilliant diagnosis Ivan!
Wow well done. It happened to me once with a Cadillac srx that the customer put Ford plugs in the car, and there it happened to me that the charging was not good and the command to two injectors would stop intermittently and there were even two injectors that broke down... really crazy.
You have great communication skills. As well your tutorials. Thank you 🥋
The coil on plug spark event using PCM IGBT drive will be a broad band spectrum energy burst (a spark) with most of the energy content composed of higher frequencies. This is why there is an coil on plug ignition noise capacitor connected between the coil power and the engine (block). The spark current flows across the spark event at the plug through the head and block to the capacitor into the +12V ignition rail and through the coil on plug auto transformer (coil) and back to the plug.
Because of the high frequency content of this current we are interested in the circuit impedance and not just resistance. Ideally for a V6 engine what we would like to see is a noise capacitor per bank while minimizing the wire lengths (minimizing inductance) from +12V ignition power feeding the coils and to the head ground. If these capacitor(s) are not present the return current path is through the battery with higher impedance and creates more radio interference on old style AM car radios.
The wiring diagram in the video shows only one ignition noise capacitor present for the entire engine. I don't know who drew the wiring diagram but the ignition coil symbol is completely wrong. The +12V coil power is not on the same winding as the spark plug.
The PCM ignition IGBTs should have an active clamp at around 410V flyback inductive spike ground referenced. So, as Ivan said we need to protect the Picoscope channel input circuit up to this 410V event. Whenever the IGBT collector is subject to 410V the device will turn on, so essential the IGBT active clamp will protect the Picoscope. To get the best fidelity on the PCM ignition output at the connector it is best to use a Pico Technology high voltage differential probe with minimal lead lengths, twist the leads and terminate at the module connector piercing banana probes.
I use my Picoscope different from Ivan for road tests. I try and get the best fidelity out of the measurements to record noise free signal captures by minimizing lead lengths and using active probes where possible because I have to include them in customer reports which are scrutinized many times by customer engineers, and they like to shoot the messenger. Also, I put the Picoscope in a cool place under hood and just run a long USB cable into the passenger compartment. Ivan has the advantage over me in that he does not have to write detailed reports based on high fidelity test measurements.
If you do the statistical analysis on the coil on plug inductive ignition multi-strike strategies, you will find that you get the most benefit of a second spark at or close to the same dwell current as the first spark. When you have more than two sparks and you sacrifice dwell current (spark energy) the benefits are actually less. I actually worked with the engineer that did this analysis which took about a year to complete. Most of the delays where in getting prototype coils made and potted and then taking data on the dyno, much of it in a cold chamber to simulate winter conditions. The strategy was completed in about a month which included bench testing. Above a certain RPM, depending on the engine, you do not need to multi-strike because the cylinder swirl and tumble is so extreme that even a weak spark will create a flame kernel. If you make a head out of see through plastic you can actually see the ignition flame front with a high speed camera. The head won't last long but you only really need to do a few slow dyno pulls to capture all of the footage.
To lose ignition the PCM is in reset. Something either cut power to the PCM or the PCM digital core experienced a processing exception. After the exception the PCM booted, synched and continued engine strategy which took about 200ms. I think it is power related because a processor core exception would easily recover in under 100ms. Perhaps monitor PCM +12V module power to see the power disruption. Ideally we would like to look at the microprocessor reset pin. When we look at noise at the PCM the basic assumption from the engineers is the ignition coil noise capacitors and wiring is good.
This marginal spark noise problem resetting the PCM could be caused by aging capacitors. I have argued at length of how the PCM power rails should be stiffer meaning better coverage in power rail impedance over frequency so as to reject these ignition no spark or high noise events. So, perhaps recap the PCM and maybe add some capacitance having low ESR for the critical power rails, which are 5V, 3.3V and I believe 1.8V. We need to ask ourselves why is the PCM so sensitive to an ignition misfire caused by an over gap?
Gen Mon as an alternator single ended active low single wire duty cycle signal will have a low side driver in the alternator with the pull up in the PCM which will probably have two protection diodes fed by +12V PCM power. So the recessive state will have a voltage of PCM power minus two diode drops. This is what I remember.
The alternator will have a default strategy when the PCM Gen Com drops out.
I don't think our Mercury cars have smart charging systems. I am wanting to say on the Panther Platform cars smart charging started in 2006. In all the years I have been driving a car, I have NEVER gone to an auto parts store for a starter or alternator. I recently had the alternator on the 'ol Marquis rebuilt and was told by the tech that there were diodes that were bad. He told me VERY emphatically NOT to get rid of the voltage regulator because you can't get another one. At almost 500,000 miles it still had the original voltage regulator. GREAT VIDEO!
Still think you need a customer reaction video. Imagine the reaction for not charging and you replaced spark plugs. "That's not why I brought it in for" ;)
NO, NO, NO ! Just imagine the customer face when told: the spk plgs gap was incorrect. It created a high voltage spike that tripped: the alternator charging. 😮
The technical part is easy. Dealing with this planet humans: PRICELESS
Brilliant diagnosis mate! 😃👍! Gotta think outside the box sometimes with all the electrickery going on under the bonnet of modern cars!
Hey your left thumbmail! - OUCH!!!! Car door? Rat trap? Looks like that hurt! D'oh!
Very cool !!!!! Nice thought and diagnosis process. Like !!!!
I think your smoking gun was that first capture on the test drive.. Where you showed the voltage spikes on the PWM signal from the alt.. You could literally see the spike on the square wave. Pretty crazy. I just wonder if it was actually arching/shorting on the alt wire somewhere in the harness-- or if it was actually back feeding to the PCM through the coil control wire? Very cool capture. (17:50)
I am thinking computer buss was pushed so hard trying to fire coils and throw spark across that chasm of a spark plug gap that something else had to lay down, having lost proper bias. Bias is everything to a semiconductors p/n junction. In this instance, alternator control took the hit. I'd have to see board layout and chip diagrams to nail down why. If they used opto-isolators attempting to serve low impedance loads [less than 300k or so], I have seen funny faults in the past: an overcurrent extendig past 30 minutes would fail an output on - wide open, 100%, no reset possible.
Anyway, the problem of half baked designs usually revolves around failure to analyze current requirements and associated fault tolerances. Could be weak system analysis by Ford, or could be faulty spec sheets on chips selected.
@@flinch622 The problem is that the coil charges up and then it wants to arch to ground when it collapses.. But if that ground is too far away for the arch to jump, then it doesn't have anywhere to go, so it winds up back feeding into the ECM.. Most circuits will account for this by adding a diode or even a resistor across it, so that when it collapses, it can just jump to ground across that resistor/ diode.. or however else they choose to filter it. But for spark plugs, they specifically don't add that filter because they want it to jump across the spark plug and no where else. So I can understand why the internal circuits don't have a typical filter to prevent this back feed.. because it might cause misfires sometimes, by allowing your spark to "choose" it's path to ground. So anyway, as long as you run good plugs, it won't ever be a problem. It's still a weird rabbit hole that it leads you down
It just keeps getting crazier and crazier. Diagnose Dan had a car disabled because of the door handle and now you have a dead alternator because of excessive spark plug gap. What's next? TPMS sensors making the vehicle overheat? This is unbelievable.