Just finished a 2300 mile road trip in mine. I routinely added 180kw in 50-55 minutes. Even over 90%SOC it would pull 60+kwh. I was amazed. The Mercedes chargers at Buc-ee’s were the fastest but the GM network chargers by EVGo were close plus they were at wider spaced and easier to get to than most EA sites. Had no issues at any of them. The charger network is so much better than it was a year ago.
My 2005 Excursion 6.0 was $161.38 for 40.557 gallons last fill up. I see & feel the pain. Now I spend 90% of my time driving my Electrified G80. Thanks for the video!
This is great information Tom. These trucks have very big batteries. Going from 10-80 in 40 minutes might seem like a long time, but you crammed 166 kWh into the battery. It held 300 kw until the truck was at 55% SOC and then stayed between 150 and 200 kw until it got to 80%. This is impressive charging. Thanks.
Range added over time is the most useful metric. I like that you are starting to mention why X charge rate at Y percentage is actually not too special because the battery capacity is so large.
Electricity prices in the states are mind-blowing. In Quebec, it would cost about 85 $ (60 USD) to charges the Silverado from 0-100 on a Dc fast charger and about 14$ (10 USD) to charge it at home. Those power companies south of the border are making away like bandits, something should be done about that.
There's been a software update that includes a better charging curve, at least that's what the post said. Maybe check with your GM contacts and see if the update changes the results. Thanks for the video Tom!
Hi Tom. I'd love to see a big GM pack on a Tesla v3+ (v4 stall). I think it could be very educational and informative about voltage vs current and how that correlates to battery temperature and charging rates. I believe the curve should essentially be tbe same except all the areas above ~180kw would be capped at that. The voltages you see here would just be halved and the current should be flat at 500amps. At least that's the theory! Would love to see that proven or disproven.
Love the charts. The C rate chart is really nice. One thing that might be very interesting to compare is the C rate charge between the different GM EV's. Considering that all of them are using the same module in theory they should have a very similar C rate chart.
23:39 Right now, there's discussion of whether starting a charging session at 20% might be the best strategy for these GM EVs, where the timed drop off is the same as when starting at lower percentages, but you're charging at higher rates due to the increased voltage. That's also going to be a more realistic use case for the Silverado EV, where few people are going to drive all the way down to 10% before stopping, even if they have their charge limit set to 80%. Even at 75 mph, that would be close to 4 hours of driving before stopping for your first charging session.
Featuring a robust 10-year battery warranty and integrated connected services, the bZ4X promises reliability, technology, and support for a hassle-free ownership experience. Toyota’s commitment shines through in every detail.
The "10 minute boost" looks similar to what the Lightning does. It seems like a 15, 20, 25% etc. start point charge curves are in order to see if it needs a complex chart like the one you created for the Lightning.
set to 100% for dinner sessions so near zero risk of having to get up and move 1/2 through dinner but little chance of hitting 100% before dinner is done
It's worth noting that the 350 kW charger might actually be a bottleneck for the 200 kWh Ultium packs. Most 350 kW chargers can no longer provide 500 A of current after 700 V (where they get their "350 kW" rating), so you should see slightly better results charging on a 400 kW charger, which should be able to provide 500 A up to at least 800 V. Of course, the CCS1 socket is still a bottleneck, though. Not only is it limited to 500 A, the 10-minute time limit before it starts to reduce charging speed is a result of the charging port temperatures. And we don't know what the actual C Rate of these ~100 Ah NCMA cells are. If it's a true 2C Rate, the 200 kWh Ultium pack would be able to accept 600 A of input current for a short period of time. Then again, by the time GM can implement those updates, they might already be moving onto solid-state batteries for these larger format EVs.
@@jasonriddell What's important is that taper happens after the same amount of time, regardless of the starting battery percentage. This is what throws a lot of people off because they are used to the fastest charging sessions resulting from plugging in when as low as possible. It appears that Ultium battery EVs might see their fastest charging sessions when starting from as high as 30% battery (or even higher). There's a point of diminishing returns, of course, but that's why people who have been tracking these charging profiles are recommending that drivers start their charge sessions at >20%.
GM has a history of being over cautious with battery health the VOLT was "famous" for having HUGE buffers at both ends to the point 20% of the bettery was "locked away"
Would love to see this at a Tesla Version 3 supercharger (with the NACS adapter) with it's higher current rating and see how well it does there, especially as it can be much more cost effective with the Tesla membership.
I tried two last week with the magic dock thing. Wouldn’t let me pull more than 180kw but worked flawlessly. It was cool out but what I noticed walking around is all the Teslas charging the chargers were quiet. Mine both times the fans in the charger were running full blast. I bet they are thermally limited since Tesla doesn’t have a battery near this big in the lineup.
With the Arizona Public Service ToU-DC Super Off-Peak electric rate, 235.75 kWh would cost just $14.02. However with a home 48A charger you would only be able to fill it to 24% with 57.5 kWh ($3.44) since Super Off-Peak is only 5 hours. It would take another 15.5 hours to top it off (assuming the 11.5 kW charging rate is maintained) @ $14.99. So in total that would cost $18.43 taking 20.5 hours. Fortunately On-Peak is only 3 hours so charging in a 24 hour period at home is just possible. If just using Super Off-Peak times, it would take just over 4 days to top charge.
Tom, it would be great to get the heat removal specs for the vehicles like Rivian R1 models and GM models with charge rate dips. Clearly the dips are due to temp limits programmed into BMS. Some cooling systems can not remove enough heat from the pack.
Great data. Love your vids….Important to note that your 6500# Lightning acheived ONLY 2.0-2.1 mi/kWh on your 70 MPH highway test. (I did the same test between the Lightning and a Silverado EV 4WT in a follow me highway test and the difference was 0.05 mi/kwh). This 9000 pound beast with nearly 440 miles of range achieved pretty much the same… by the way, what speeds did the Lightning charge at? If I recall 4 miles per minute from 0-80%…where the Silverado provides 80% charge in 50 minutes which is 352 miles or 7.04 mi/ min, or a 75% faster charge time than the lightning. (You can drive 136 miles more than the lightning on the highway as well). Let’s look at this another way, the Lightning ER can drive 216 miles on the highway with an 80% charge. At 4 mi/min, that needs 54 minutes of charging…hmmm.
Looks like it would really be most useful road tripping staying under 45% SOC. Let it charge longer if you need a longer stop, but otherwise you really have to ride the curve at the bottom 😕. Not ideal, would like to see it hold a better rate between 40-65%
I believe the top level charging is MORE about thermal management and less about SOC and would LOVE to see it repeated starting at 25% SOC and HOPE the top level is maintained for the same 20 minutes pushing 55% SOC
That’s a crazy huge battery. My Niro EV has a 62kw battery, and it can’t even reach max charging speeds on the many 50kw chargers in rural areas. This makes me wonder if you can really drive this truck in many areas of the country without 350kw chargers.
Smaller battery will constraint the amount of power pull from the system. The peak doesnt matter much, but the average is more meaning fule. My model 3 Rwd on pull max of 135kw all the way to 70%. The it drop to 60 to 65kw. But the model S from same infrustructure appears to able to pull lot more.
Tom, you might want to redo this test on an EA 350kW charger. The EVgo charger or site might have been constrained a bit. EVgo sites are sometime times a bit underpowered. I've seen higher rates than these on other tests. For example, over 350kW from 2% to 30% SoC and 225kW average/curve after that to 75%.
@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I see. Then they definitely need to work on the curve for this model like the did with the Hummer EV. I don't see why they haven't already, it's the same platform and battery size. After all, Porsche proved that you can get over 300kW all the way to the mid 60's percent and stay over 200kW to 75% SoC on a battery half this size on the 2025 Taycan.
I stopped at a Mercedes 400kw charger at Buc-ee’s last week. It pulled 370kw for a couple minutes then settled at 350 for 10 more minutes. Pretty wild how much it added in 15 minutes. It was the fastest charger I’ve found so far.
Tom, do you think the chargers cause any of the drop? My ID4 at nearly identical ambient and miles driven before charge and soc at beginning and my charge rate will vary wildly. I’ve started at as high as 156 and low of 70.
your charge rate charts overlaid raises a question the first 20 minutes with the 350 rate being nearly the same with the 0% and the 10% starting range wonder if it HOLDS true at 25 or 30% SOC starting as it appears to be a thermal OR balancing drop off not a SOC ramp down If it will add 200 miles from 30% to around 50% that would be VERY impressive IMHO
My guess is that dip is to verify a closer to resting voltage and temperature. It's likely a safety factor, but it does seem overly aggressive. They must not be fully confident with their in-house testing.
@@Timbucktoo32Silverado EV LT is only available with the smaller 20-module / ~175kWh pack vs. this 24Mod./~215kWh pack. 300kW peak vs 350kW peak. The 2WT charging will be interesting. That’s a 220kW peak charging pack and only 400v. ~120kWh.
@@LakeLake123 The pack voltage is lower on the LT and RST extended battery vs RST Max and 8WT battery. The pack build layout for extended is 2 x 3p 80s ~ 330v and the Max is 2 x 3p 96s ~ 400v. The extended battery is still a monster compared to all other EV's.
Tom, are you planning on doing a revised charging analysis for the F150 Lightning? The latest OTA updates 10.X improved the LIghtning charging curves and it maxes out at 190 kW now (for the Extended Range model).
I tried two superchargers with magic dock on my last big trip. Wouldn’t let me pull more than 180kw so that’s super slow compared to EA and EVGo but they did work fast and flawlessly.
The fact that they email you how much it was instead of telling you before and after you plug in is a bit sketchy and not very good business practices. And by the amount it cost you is kinda telling why they don't tell you before
@@oj9886 Man, I just posted the video! I'm not ignoring you - I just read the comment. I can't sit by the computer and read all the comments in real-time. I'm glad you asked because it reminds me about this. I asked GM for an answer on this a while back but they didn't respond. Now I will ping them again. Thanks for reminding me.
At normal prices of around $0.50 / kwh and 2 miles / kwh, that's 25 cents per mile. Even with expensive gas at around $3.50 and assuming 16MPG which is LOW, gas is cheaper at 21.8c / mile. That's just stupid, there's then NO benefit to travelling with this truck, especially considering the cost of it.
Just finished a 2300 mile road trip in mine. I routinely added 180kw in 50-55 minutes. Even over 90%SOC it would pull 60+kwh. I was amazed. The Mercedes chargers at Buc-ee’s were the fastest but the GM network chargers by EVGo were close plus they were at wider spaced and easier to get to than most EA sites. Had no issues at any of them. The charger network is so much better than it was a year ago.
My 2005 Excursion 6.0 was $161.38 for 40.557 gallons last fill up. I see & feel the pain. Now I spend 90% of my time driving my Electrified G80. Thanks for the video!
Master chart is true brilliance! Thank you. Pure genius in maximizing charging for a specific EV.
This is great information Tom. These trucks have very big batteries. Going from 10-80 in 40 minutes might seem like a long time, but you crammed 166 kWh into the battery. It held 300 kw until the truck was at 55% SOC and then stayed between 150 and 200 kw until it got to 80%. This is impressive charging. Thanks.
Tom turning out the great quality content. Kudos.
Range added over time is the most useful metric. I like that you are starting to mention why X charge rate at Y percentage is actually not too special because the battery capacity is so large.
Electricity prices in the states are mind-blowing. In Quebec, it would cost about 85 $ (60 USD) to charges the Silverado from 0-100 on a Dc fast charger and about 14$ (10 USD) to charge it at home. Those power companies south of the border are making away like bandits, something should be done about that.
BC HYDRO DC fast chargers last september was 0.35 CDN and my Manitoba home electricity is 0.10
It's like calculus integration. It's all about area under the curve.😊
It’s literally that
There's been a software update that includes a better charging curve, at least that's what the post said. Maybe check with your GM contacts and see if the update changes the results. Thanks for the video Tom!
Hi Tom. I'd love to see a big GM pack on a Tesla v3+ (v4 stall). I think it could be very educational and informative about voltage vs current and how that correlates to battery temperature and charging rates. I believe the curve should essentially be tbe same except all the areas above ~180kw would be capped at that. The voltages you see here would just be halved and the current should be flat at 500amps. At least that's the theory! Would love to see that proven or disproven.
@17:37.. guess Tom meant a number over 400 miles, and not 250. Please ignore if I’m wrong
Love the charts. The C rate chart is really nice. One thing that might be very interesting to compare is the C rate charge between the different GM EV's. Considering that all of them are using the same module in theory they should have a very similar C rate chart.
23:39 Right now, there's discussion of whether starting a charging session at 20% might be the best strategy for these GM EVs, where the timed drop off is the same as when starting at lower percentages, but you're charging at higher rates due to the increased voltage. That's also going to be a more realistic use case for the Silverado EV, where few people are going to drive all the way down to 10% before stopping, even if they have their charge limit set to 80%. Even at 75 mph, that would be close to 4 hours of driving before stopping for your first charging session.
Featuring a robust 10-year battery warranty and integrated connected services, the bZ4X promises reliability, technology, and support for a hassle-free ownership experience. Toyota’s commitment shines through in every detail.
The "10 minute boost" looks similar to what the Lightning does. It seems like a 15, 20, 25% etc. start point charge curves are in order to see if it needs a complex chart like the one you created for the Lightning.
It does
We have a Lightning... Do you have a chart for that one? If so, how can I get a copy?
Over 80% is just good to avoid idle fees. Gives you a 30 minutes windows to not get charged idle fees ;)
set to 100% for dinner sessions so near zero risk of having to get up and move 1/2 through dinner but little chance of hitting 100% before dinner is done
Thank you for the data.
Car Scanner Elm Obd2 phone app shows battery temperature in all Ultium EV vehicles (and some other sensors: energy content kWh, cell voltage etc).
It would be nice to see the cells temps while charging. How long does this battery take to precondition?
Thank you!
The nighttime rate where I live is 2 cents per Kwh which would drop the cost a full charge from $150 to $5.
Is that just the energy cost or the full cost with delivery and taxes/fees??
My off peak is around 2 cents but the total cost is
It's worth noting that the 350 kW charger might actually be a bottleneck for the 200 kWh Ultium packs. Most 350 kW chargers can no longer provide 500 A of current after 700 V (where they get their "350 kW" rating), so you should see slightly better results charging on a 400 kW charger, which should be able to provide 500 A up to at least 800 V.
Of course, the CCS1 socket is still a bottleneck, though. Not only is it limited to 500 A, the 10-minute time limit before it starts to reduce charging speed is a result of the charging port temperatures. And we don't know what the actual C Rate of these ~100 Ah NCMA cells are. If it's a true 2C Rate, the 200 kWh Ultium pack would be able to accept 600 A of input current for a short period of time.
Then again, by the time GM can implement those updates, they might already be moving onto solid-state batteries for these larger format EVs.
any of those concerns mentioned likely is why the sudden drop off in charge current at the same time on BOTH sessions
@@jasonriddell What's important is that taper happens after the same amount of time, regardless of the starting battery percentage. This is what throws a lot of people off because they are used to the fastest charging sessions resulting from plugging in when as low as possible. It appears that Ultium battery EVs might see their fastest charging sessions when starting from as high as 30% battery (or even higher). There's a point of diminishing returns, of course, but that's why people who have been tracking these charging profiles are recommending that drivers start their charge sessions at >20%.
GM probably overcautious after the bolt fire period.
GM has a history of being over cautious with battery health the VOLT was "famous" for having HUGE buffers at both ends to the point 20% of the bettery was "locked away"
Would love to see this at a Tesla Version 3 supercharger (with the NACS adapter) with it's higher current rating and see how well it does there, especially as it can be much more cost effective with the Tesla membership.
I tried two last week with the magic dock thing. Wouldn’t let me pull more than 180kw but worked flawlessly. It was cool out but what I noticed walking around is all the Teslas charging the chargers were quiet. Mine both times the fans in the charger were running full blast. I bet they are thermally limited since Tesla doesn’t have a battery near this big in the lineup.
With the Arizona Public Service ToU-DC Super Off-Peak electric rate, 235.75 kWh would cost just $14.02. However with a home 48A charger you would only be able to fill it to 24% with 57.5 kWh ($3.44) since Super Off-Peak is only 5 hours. It would take another 15.5 hours to top it off (assuming the 11.5 kW charging rate is maintained) @ $14.99. So in total that would cost $18.43 taking 20.5 hours. Fortunately On-Peak is only 3 hours so charging in a 24 hour period at home is just possible. If just using Super Off-Peak times, it would take just over 4 days to top charge.
Tom, it would be great to get the heat removal specs for the vehicles like Rivian R1 models and GM models with charge rate dips. Clearly the dips are due to temp limits programmed into BMS. Some cooling systems can not remove enough heat from the pack.
could be CCS socket limits OR the charging dispenser thermal limits as it appears to be thermal related
Yeah but what about Taycan on same station? I believe it is car.
Great data. Love your vids….Important to note that your 6500# Lightning acheived ONLY 2.0-2.1 mi/kWh on your 70 MPH highway test. (I did the same test between the Lightning and a Silverado EV 4WT in a follow me highway test and the difference was 0.05 mi/kwh). This 9000 pound beast with nearly 440 miles of range achieved pretty much the same… by the way, what speeds did the Lightning charge at? If I recall 4 miles per minute from 0-80%…where the Silverado provides 80% charge in 50 minutes which is 352 miles or 7.04 mi/ min, or a 75% faster charge time than the lightning. (You can drive 136 miles more than the lightning on the highway as well). Let’s look at this another way, the Lightning ER can drive 216 miles on the highway with an 80% charge. At 4 mi/min, that needs 54 minutes of charging…hmmm.
I have done two 600 mile road trips and you are spot on, 20 minutes of DC charging…it’s a game changer for road-tripping in a big comfy EV truck.
Wait until you test the Winter range and compare it to a Lightning….
Looks like it would really be most useful road tripping staying under 45% SOC. Let it charge longer if you need a longer stop, but otherwise you really have to ride the curve at the bottom 😕. Not ideal, would like to see it hold a better rate between 40-65%
I believe the top level charging is MORE about thermal management and less about SOC and would LOVE to see it repeated starting at 25% SOC and HOPE the top level is maintained for the same 20 minutes pushing 55% SOC
That’s a crazy huge battery. My Niro EV has a 62kw battery, and it can’t even reach max charging speeds on the many 50kw chargers in rural areas. This makes me wonder if you can really drive this truck in many areas of the country without 350kw chargers.
Smaller battery will constraint the amount of power pull from the system. The peak doesnt matter much, but the average is more meaning fule. My model 3 Rwd on pull max of 135kw all the way to 70%. The it drop to 60 to 65kw. But the model S from same infrustructure appears to able to pull lot more.
Ioniq electric 38 kw battery and almost an hour to fully charge
Tom, you might want to redo this test on an EA 350kW charger. The EVgo charger or site might have been constrained a bit. EVgo sites are sometime times a bit underpowered. I've seen higher rates than these on other tests. For example, over 350kW from 2% to 30% SoC and 225kW average/curve after that to 75%.
I did one recording on an EA station and it didn't do any better. I didn't use it because you don't get the amps and volts on screen.
@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I see. Then they definitely need to work on the curve for this model like the did with the Hummer EV. I don't see why they haven't already, it's the same platform and battery size.
After all, Porsche proved that you can get over 300kW all the way to the mid 60's percent and stay over 200kW to 75% SoC on a battery half this size on the 2025 Taycan.
I stopped at a Mercedes 400kw charger at Buc-ee’s last week. It pulled 370kw for a couple minutes then settled at 350 for 10 more minutes. Pretty wild how much it added in 15 minutes. It was the fastest charger I’ve found so far.
maybe because the 10-80% has higher voltage in the pack to start with? GM's individual packs are fairly low voltage.
Tom, do you think the chargers cause any of the drop? My ID4 at nearly identical ambient and miles driven before charge and soc at beginning and my charge rate will vary wildly. I’ve started at as high as 156 and low of 70.
Tom, can you please tell me where to find and download the last chart on this video?
I'm assuming that the $38 home charging cost is not counting the fact that you have a lot of solar on your roof?
your charge rate charts overlaid raises a question
the first 20 minutes with the 350 rate being nearly the same with the 0% and the 10% starting range wonder if it HOLDS true at 25 or 30% SOC starting as it appears to be a thermal OR balancing drop off not a SOC ramp down If it will add 200 miles from 30% to around 50% that would be VERY impressive IMHO
It looks like your charger had some thermal management issues. That is why it dropped and then came back up over 200.
My guess is that dip is to verify a closer to resting voltage and temperature. It's likely a safety factor, but it does seem overly aggressive. They must not be fully confident with their in-house testing.
Will you be able to test a Silverado EV LT?
I think it's the exact same battery
@@Timbucktoo32Silverado EV LT is only available with the smaller 20-module / ~175kWh pack vs. this 24Mod./~215kWh pack. 300kW peak vs 350kW peak.
The 2WT charging will be interesting. That’s a 220kW peak charging pack and only 400v. ~120kWh.
@@LakeLake123 I want to see the highway test with LT with premium package and smaller wheels
@@LakeLake123 The pack voltage is lower on the LT and RST extended battery vs RST Max and 8WT battery. The pack build layout for extended is 2 x 3p 80s ~ 330v and the Max is 2 x 3p 96s ~ 400v. The extended battery is still a monster compared to all other EV's.
Nothing on Regen??? On Long drive using the breaks???
It's a charging test, not a range test. EVs rarely use the brakes, they use Regen instead.
@jghall00 You went of a long ride and didn't take the effects Regen has on range to extend range....
Tom, are you planning on doing a revised charging analysis for the F150 Lightning? The latest OTA updates 10.X improved the LIghtning charging curves and it maxes out at 190 kW now (for the Extended Range model).
Yeah, I will. But I'm waiting on Ford to give me official information on what was done to improve it.
@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I'm a Lightning owner as well, can't wait for the video! Thanks!
The drop between 48-50% charge was the BMS equalizing both batteries in the truck to continue higher charging speeds.
What happens if you start at 40%?
This but on the superchargers too.
will pull
I tried two superchargers with magic dock on my last big trip. Wouldn’t let me pull more than 180kw so that’s super slow compared to EA and EVGo but they did work fast and flawlessly.
The fact that they email you how much it was instead of telling you before and after you plug in is a bit sketchy and not very good business practices. And by the amount it cost you is kinda telling why they don't tell you before
Geez. Makes my Rivian R1T seem like a Prius next to Mary's barge.
9:55 This is how you ruin an EV convert before they even start. $150 charging session is criminal
It you watch the video, you understand why that was. I don't sugar-coat the truth.
Please address why the charging speed drops when ac is turned on and what is Gm doing about it
I'm guessing the ac system has to divide duties?
Genius … other evs don’t have this issue .. I wonder why Tom
Is not addressing this
@@oj9886 Man, I just posted the video! I'm not ignoring you - I just read the comment. I can't sit by the computer and read all the comments in real-time. I'm glad you asked because it reminds me about this. I asked GM for an answer on this a while back but they didn't respond. Now I will ping them again. Thanks for reminding me.
AC is cooling the battery. This is why it's helpful to see cell temps.
@@jamesengland7461genius it’s doesn’t happen in other evs
At normal prices of around $0.50 / kwh and 2 miles / kwh, that's 25 cents per mile. Even with expensive gas at around $3.50 and assuming 16MPG which is LOW, gas is cheaper at 21.8c / mile. That's just stupid, there's then NO benefit to travelling with this truck, especially considering the cost of it.
Charging $0.59/kWh should be a crime.
In this 39 minute video, you could add roughly 310 miles 😂
so towing still is problematic even with big batteries....
@laloajuria4678 Towing is problematic with ICE too even with a fuel tank....
Tom
Can you address
My question