Decoding Gnosticism: Secrets of a Heretical Christian Belief
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2023
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By far the most mysterious, intriguing, and widely-interesting ancient "heresy" was Gnosticism. But what exactly is it and why does it matter? In this episode we consider the basic ideas that lay behind the Gnostic religions and explore just how radically different they are from the views that came to be regarded as orthodox. How could these religions be considered Christian if they didn't think Jesus' death mattered? How could they consider the God of the Old Testament to be a lower level and inferior divinity, and this material universe to be a cosmic disaster? Did Gnostics have their own Scriptures? Did they use the books that later became the New Testament? If so, why didn't they just admit their views were wrong? We will address these and other issues in this exploration of the highly unusual world of Christian Gnosticism.
This week, Bart and Megan talk about:
-What are some of the commonalities we see in different Gnostic groups?
-How does Jesus feature in this dualistic, spiritual/material world, and does it play into his identity as divine-human?
-xWhere does YHWH, the god of the Hebrew Bible, come into this? Is he the divine being, an Aeon, what is he?
-You said it’s the goal of the Gnostics to get back to the Pleroma, how is this to be done?
-Did the Gnostics use different religious texts from the proto-Orthodox?
-How did the proto-Orthodox groups go about combating the Gnostics?
-How did the Gnostics try and claim that they were correct, versus the proto-Orthodox?
-How does the afterlife work for Gnostics? Gnostics already see the material world as being “hellish”, so are there gradations of heaven?
-Do we know how they went about identifying which people had the spark of Sophia?
-Do we have a sense of how widespread gnosticism was in the ancient world?
-Do you think that the potential widespread nature of Gnosticism owe anything to the mystery cults of the Classical world?
-Did the Gnostics hold to the theory of atonement, or do we just not know?
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Lying in hospital after a collapse and just semiconscious, three thoughts came to me:
1. Am I dying?
2. That would cause a lot of problems.
3. But they wouldn't be my problems.
Hmmm... I've heard my share of death bed stories... what we all say, one way or another, is that I wish I'd spent more time with the ones I love, particularly children when children are involved. Many facing death, experience the brutal fact that their passing will cast grief upon the remaining loved ones. Perhaps you're missing something?
Joe was sharing his sense of 'detachment' he was experiencing when he was facing 'the possibility' his number was up. Which is valid.
@@blackkittens. Interesting... perhaps 'detachment' is more pervasive in some lives than others. There was no 'possibility' to it in those sobering cases I've encountered... They wouldn't see the next sun rise, or sun set, period... and were fully cognizant of their imminent demise. In those cases... guilt made dying difficult... those dying feel guilty for the grief their deaths cast upon their loving survivors. Perhaps that's their problem?
Forgive me if I trespass, but I felt a sense of humor in this?
How are you doing?.
This episode certainly brought a new meaning to the biblical passage that said, “you are in the world, but not of the world”.
I'm a fan of Epicurus myself, believe it or not. My kid also started asking me about dying and coming back from the dead. I think it has more to do with video games than any philosophical beliefs on reincarnation.
Yeah, I think the kids are basically asking. "Do people respawn in real life, too?"
Kid is epicurious
@crede9427 Hey, watch out! Your epicurious is showing!
If there were 2 kids, they'd be bi-epicurious
@@TrulyZer0kids have asked questions about these things long before video games. It’s kind of sad that this is your first thought
After recently watching another guy interview Dr. Bart in a frenetic manner, I appreciate Megan's calm, focused, and concise mannerisms even more.
Bart my man...I Love You Dearly for who you are. But, I think it's time to accept that your knowlege far exceeds your undestanding on this one. Its not a club with a secret Hand Shake. Somethings cant be taught, they can only be learned. You have not yet become spiritually aware, and you stick out like a sore thumb. I can help just reach brother, I can show u where I found Christ... Hint. it wasnt in the Bible. I love You Bro.
@@joevanlandingham6343 you're walking down the road he's already traveled, man
Naw... not quite. Lol.
Is it so odd that people miss awarrnes markers, when they get too caught up in the story.
@@joevanlandingham6343where?
Another great podcast! In relation to the gospel of Thomas, I'd really like to hear more about early Syriac Christianity, especially in places like Edessa. It's such an interesting part of early Christianity and it achieves so little attention. I wrote a research paper in college about Bardaisan and I was blown away by how diverse early Christianity was in that part of the world.
I love how bart acknowledges other beliefs different than his own but doesn't disparage the others
I haven’t listened to this yet, but anything from Bart is good with me. I just finished Elaine Pagels Gnostic Gospels. It opened my understanding of the history and breadth of knowledge to be learned. If interested, include her in this discussion, you won’t be disappointed.
35:00 What a wonderful edit. I was hanging on to this like a cliff, and to the editor... you just whisked it all away from me! I demand a full publishing of the entire interview!
Professor Ehrman, just as usual, I can sit in your class all day. I want to thank you for helping me to understand gnosticism. I purchase the Nag Hammadi Scriptures. Fascinating book. I know it’s a myth but it can help to see things spiritually. We’ve move from not knowing into to knowing but still I have a long ways to go. I look at wisdom that gnostics bring. Megan you are beautiful and you are a fascinating host. 😊
My favorite epitaph is epicurean: "Non Fui, Fui, Non-Sum, Non-Curo" meaning "I was not, I was, I am not, I care not."
Good times :D
Plz expalain mate
You mean the epitaph? Firstly, an epitaph is a the inscription on a grave. And this one is basically the shortest summary of life: First, we are not there, then for a while we are, and in the end, we aren't again. And that's fine, nothing to worry about.
Please do an episode on the historical john the baptist/ influence of john the baptist in early Christianity!
Spent a lot of time recently reading NT apocrypha. Really interesting stuff! Some of the English translations online are a little wonky and clearly scanned from another source (a word like ‘disciple’ might be improperly scanned as ‘clisciple’ for example) but overall extremely fascinating!
Please not m
Balanced, insightful and informative -as usual.
I so enjoy these sessions and always eagerly await for the next, Thank you so very much.
Megan, I deeply resonated with what you said about your 5-year-old in the beginning. My six-year-old is asking me very similar questions. He doesn't think he has the answer, but he seems all the more scared for it
I spent my early childhood obsessed with death myself but I didn’t talk about it with adults, just with my friends.
In my case, it had much to do with Catholic school: apart from the obvious, the constant talk of death, one of my earliest memories is seeing coffins being carried out of school. Nuns lived in underground cells (weird, but true) and they were very old, death was common even though it was never discussed with us children.
Video starts at roughly 3:15.
❤ just love listening to Bart
For me, as a German, it is always funny to listen to English-speakers about "Gnostics",
because in English, the letter "G" is not pronounced, which makes the word sound like "nasty".
just like the word "gyaan" in Sanskrit means divine knowledge similar to gnosis
Super Q&A this week. A huge growth experience. Thank you!
Just started this, and before I forget, I do want to express my vicarious delight that Bart is resonating with the joys of Epicurus.
Great interviewer. She clearly knew the best questions to cover the topic as broadly as possible.
Oh man, that assignment of writing your won gospel is pretty cool! Would you be willing to share the requirements for that assignment? I'd love to give it a shot myself.
Only tangentially related to "writing your own gospel", is one of my favorite books of all time. "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller Jr., is a fantastic bit of sci-fi where in a post apocalyptic world a religious order exists to perpetuate, well, something. I can't say too much without ruining anything. But it's a really fun look at man made religious orders and texts to send a message down through the ages.
Highly recommend it if you are in to religions and sci-fi.
I want to write my own gospel and submit it to Bart to be graded. Guess I need to apply to attend Chapel Hill
Seriously, you 2 should listen to Near Death Experience stories. They're extremely compelling. I've still got a sliver,a wedge of Agnostic thinking, but they've definitely changed my thinking.
Thank you again and still Megan.
& thank you Bart for sharing your thoughts.
I cannot wait until Bart's new book to come out!
More damned passwords to remember. What's worse, you have to remember them after you've died.
One of my favorite parts of studying the humanities! 😹
26:00 - The problem with the gnostic texts, themselves, is that they are written by Gnostics, who are Gnostics presupposing Gnosticism.
Even as a Gnostic Bishop I have always enjoyed Barts books and podcasts. He has Gnostics ALMOST right.
Glad this video came out. I know that this topic is out there on youtube. Though I havent found a video from a channel i trust.
You may want to read “The Gnostic Gospels” by Elaine Pagels.
Based on what Bart said about his students excelling at fiction but not at research, it would seem he has a classrom full of Dan Browns!
This couldn't have come at a better time. I just finished reading "Revolt of the Angels" and loved it, though was confused as to where the writer got the name Ialdabaoth for yahweh. Now I know!
It's short for yahweh who lolls about on the sabbath.
It seems anything hid in a cave for more than 1850 years should deserve way more attention than books whose originals are long gone and messed with by who knows who how many times. And the fact they were hidden says something too. Like who wanted to destroy them? And why?
Excellent point! Mr. Ehert is a bit of a grinning mocker... making humorous laughs and comments as he does so. He's definitely a few verses short of the proverbial truth. Your deeper insights and questions lends credibility to your objectiveness exploring the written records. Thank you...
When I was young and in Catholic HS learning about the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures, I had the distinct feeling that YHWH and Jesus couldn't be the same deity or at least YHWH had gone soft at some point. When I discovered the gnostic gospels many years later, it made me feel better that I wasn't the first person to see the difference between HS and CS treatment. The demiurge makes total sense if you just compare the motivations of HS and CS versions of god.
Gnosticism is really quite understandable in the context of the hellentistic/roman world. There were so many mystery cults in this era. These mysteries had members with "special" relationship because of the "knowledge (secret)" that they held. Gnostic cults fit within the context that some people has special knowledge that gives one a heads up. Probably fit better than people had such a strange few that one is saved without having secret knowledge.
Begins at 3:00.
In a future podcast, could you please discuss HOW the belief in the Holy Spirit as a 3rd person of the trinity, fully co-equal with the Father and with Jesus, developed in the early Church? Is this a case of divine hypostasis, for example like God's Wisdom in Proverbs 8? Thank you!
Humans are a story telling species. So many stories. 😇😎😉
Yeah but no exact truth. This is kinda close tho maybe
Dr. Ehrman is always a win
Love to hear Bart talking about Valentinus and The Gospel of Truth
Next episode both should have squared glasses 😄😄 great show guys! 🙂
La perfección es imposible. Pero si aspiramos a ella podemos alcanzar la excelencia.
Would love to know Bart's thoughts on James Lindsay's take on the Hegelian dialectic and its progeny as forms of gnosticism.
sounds pretty silly
47:49-48:42 polycarp to the philippians 4 probably indicates his earlier authorship of the pastorals (145 CE, readjusted from 140 CE).
P.S.: polycarp to the philippians 3:2 probably indicates his later authorship of 2 peter (150 CE) as well. The Gospel of Mary (155ish CE) seems to be very aware of these developments.
P.P.S./Edit: Tatian hated the fact that, in its opposition to marcion, 1 timothy and 2 timothy promoted marriage over celibacy so he removed the texts from his personal canon. That’s kinda funny.
Glad someone asked about the 'trans' issue - a Christian friend just posted something by someone who is very much anti-trans etc. Aargh..... (My niece is gay - she now has little contact with her fundamentalist parents.) My question is this - forgive me if Bart has already covered this elsewhere - how do 'eunuchs' in the Bible fit into this conversation? I don't understand why gay/ trans men wouldn't have been highly represented in this group.
Very interesting episode.
Does Gnosticism have any direct lineage to Platonic thought? I notice Gnostic aeons are kind of similar to Plato's forms and also that Yaldabaoth is sometimes referred to as the Demiurge. If so, was it a trend among Hellenized Jews during the late Second Temple period and afterwards as well, or was this by and large a Christian trend?
Gnosticism is strongly related to both Platonic and Stoic thought. Many academics agree with your notion that both Aeons might ultimately come from some notions about ideal forms, and that the Demiurge can be directly related back to Plato's Demiurge
The similarities are many. The first intellect and the concept of universal soul as manifestations of the attributes of “ the one “ are Neoplatonic and sounds very much like eons.
It owns a lot of ideas to Neoplatonism
@@oscarquintero2209 No, Neoplatonism hates the Gnostics, especially the founder of Neoplatonism (Plotinus), it's just they hate the Gnostics for being "Apocalyptic"/revelation-based/Biblical, all while Church Fathers akin to Irenaeus argues that "even Plato was more religious than them", even offshoot religions hates the Gnostics
Everyone in Ancient World hates the "Gnostic" Christians, albeit the questions proposed by modern scholars by thinking them as dualistic are really bogus and unfounded
@@Eddie-ls9zwGnosticism is also related to advaita or non duality(ancient Indian philosophy)
While I have really come to appreciate Bart Ehrmans' wealth of knowledge and his candor, his presentations remind me that we have few scholars of his nature and attitude. I think the Judaic community has a few, but we Muslims could do well to develop a few folks who could reflect on our own traditions, practitices and assumptions. FWIW. 😊
Excellence. As usual.
Can you guys imagine what Bart Ehrman would be like today if he were a conservative fundamentalist Christian still?
So will there be a course where Bart reveals the secret that allows us to escape this world?
That costs extra.
The password is "Sophia"..... Oh shit, now heaven is going to be crowded.
@@travis1240it's ok there's like 5000 gates all with different passwords lol
@@ancientflames I'll just print π to 100,000 pages on font size 4 and eventually should get there. Maybe the gatekeepers will just let me through so I don't block up their queue's all eternity
I'd ask a physicist or an astronomer. Something to do with integrating g over x squared from r to infinity.
16:33 .. no secret handshake?! Disappointing!!!
38:20 … it’s interesting, in the ‘70’s advertised in Playboy you could order what was called “The Laughing Jesus!”
47:16 … actually the Burning Bush was just a bush that happened to be on fire, God was behind a tree (my favorite New Yorker cartoon 😆)
gnosticism is very Much related to advaita Vedanta(non duality).
The term "Advaita" means "non-dual" in Sanskrit, and Advaita Vedanta emphasizes the fundamental unity or non-duality of the individual soul or spirit(Atman) and the ultimate reality (Brahman or God or consciousness). According to Advaita Vedanta, Brahman(God)is the absolute, infinite, and indivisible reality that underlies all existence. It is beyond the realm of names, forms, and attributes.
Advaita Vedanta posits that the apparent diversity and multiplicity of the world is an illusion (maya) created by ignorance (avidya). It asserts that the true nature of reality is pure consciousness, and the individual soul is not separate from Brahman(God)but is essentially identical to it. The goal of Advaita Vedanta is to realize we are not the body but spirit itself and we can realise this non-dual nature by transcending ignorance through self knowledge (jnana) and direct experience (moksha). And what gnostic gospels say is similar to it.[ and from the perspective of advaita Jesus was a Gnani(knower of the Truth) and there is no difference between the ultimate Truth and the knower of the Truth.]
Upanishad:~ ‘They alone in this world are endowed with the highest wisdom who are firm in their conviction of the sameness and birthlessness of Atman(spirit or God or consciousness). The ordinary man does not understand their way.
Mundaka Upanishads :- He who knows that highest Brahman(God)becomes even Brahman(God); and in his line, none who knows not the Brahman will be born. He crosses grief and virtue and vice and being freed from the knot of the heart, becomes immortal.
Mundaka Upanishads: ~ ‘So-called spiritual pundits and learned are called children because a child takes whatever it thinks as truth. The question never occurs to children “Is what I have seen or thought really the truth.
Yajur Veda - chapter- 32: - God or Supreme Spirit has no ‘Pratima’ (idol) or material shape
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad declares: "He who worships the deities as entities entirely separate from him does not know the truth. For the Gods, he is like a pasu (beast).
Brihad Upanishad: ~ “If you think there is another entity, whether man or God there is no truth."
Brihadaranyaka Upanishad: ~ Brahman (God) is in the form of the Athma, and it is indeed Athma itself.
Bible says: ~ “God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Gospel of Thomas
And he said, "Whoever discovers the meaning of these sayings won't taste death."
Saying 2: Seek and Find
Jesus said, "Whoever seeks shouldn't stop until they find. When they find, they'll be disturbed. When they're disturbed, they'll be […] amazed, and reign over the All."
Saying 3: Seeking Within
Jesus said, "If your leaders tell you, 'Look, the kingdom is in heaven,' then the birds of heaven will precede you. If they tell you, 'It's in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and outside of you.
"When you know yourselves, then you'll be known, and you'll realize that you're the children of the living Father. But if you don't know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
Jesus said, "I've cast fire on the world, and look, I'm watching over it until it blazes."
Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me, and I myself will become like them; then, what's hidden will be revealed to them."
Book of Thomas the contender
The savior said, "Brother Thomas while you have time in the world, listen to me, and I will reveal to you the things you have pondered in your mind.
"Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself, and learn who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. Since you will be called my brother, it is not fitting that you be ignorant of yourself. And I know that you have understood, because you had already understood that I am the knowledge of the truth. So while you accompany me, although you are uncomprehending, you have (in fact) already come to know, and you will be called 'the one who knows himself'. For he who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of the all.
Thomas answered and said, "It is obvious and has been said, 'Many are those who do not know soul.'"
"Watch and pray that you not come to be in the flesh, but rather that you come forth from the bondage of the bitterness of this life. And as you pray, you will find rest, for you have left behind the suffering and the disgrace. For when you come forth from the sufferings and passions of the body, you will receive rest from the good one, and you will reign with the king, you joined with him and he(father or spirit)with you, from now on, for ever and ever, Amen."
And the savior answered, saying, "Blessed is the wise man who sought after the truth, and when he found it, he rested upon it forever and was unafraid of those who wanted to disturb him."
Dialogue of the Savior
Matthew said, “Master, I would like to see that dwelling place where there is no wickedness, but rather, there is only pure illumination!”
The Master replied, “Brother Matthew, you won’t be able to see it so long as you are carrying around a physical body.”
Matthew said, “Master, though I won’t be able to see it, please let me understand it.”
The Master replied, “Anyone who gains knowledge of oneself will see it within all the opportunities given to him [missing text] then will arise [missing text] by one's devotion.”
Judas then asked, “Master, please tell me how [missing text] that agitates the motion of the earth.”
The Master picked up a stone with his hand and held it up. He said, “What do I hold here in my hand?”
He replied, “a stone.”
He told them, “What supports the heavens also supports the earth. When Wisdom arises from the Majesty, it proceeds upon what supports the heavens and earth. For the earth does not change course. If it changed course, it would crash. Rather, it doesn’t change course or crash, so that the initial Wisdom would succeed. For it was this that manifested the material universe and occupied them. Then breathed its air and because [missing text] that does not change course, myself [missing text] yourselves, all the servants of humanity.
Because you originate from there. You live within the hearts of those who teach from joy and truth. Though it arises from the body from the Creator and isn’t accepted, it will still [missing text] return to its home.
One who doesn’t know these perfect activities doesn’t know anything. One who doesn’t stand in the darkness will not be able to recognize the light. Should one not understand what fire is, one will become burnt by it. For he doesn’t know the basics about it. If one doesn’t first understand water, he knows nothing. For what use will he have to become baptized?
One who doesn’t know the wind is blowing will get blown away with it. If one doesn’t know about the separate existence of the body, he will die with it. Then how can someone who doesn’t know the Representative know the Creator?
Thus, one who doesn’t know the root of everything will remain ignorant. One who doesn’t know the root of wickedness is no stranger to it. One who knows not how he came will not know how he will go. And he is not a stranger to this material universe that will [missing text] become humbled.”
Thanks as always
In the last few weeks I've been reading the seminal book on the issue by Bishop of Lyon St.Irenaeus, written in the late second century. Its original title in Greek would translate into something like "Check and Overturn of the False Knowledge". Irenaeus writes that he's citing what he himself read and heard from Gnostics. And, oh boy, is it wild! 😂 You just can't make any sense. It's so *so* convoluted! So out of this world crazy stuff. These people didn't lack imagination, that's for sure!
Don't mean to be pedantic, but I think you mean 2nd Century. Like Mormonism, I can't get my head around Gnosticism!
@@johnstewart3244 Yes, thank you for pointing out this! I corrected it! It was written probably in the 180s.
Gnosis is not"secret knowledge" in the sense that you're told some secret.. it's self knowledge.. to "know thyself" to directly experience who you truly are.. all religions have this teaching hidden in allegory
Always a pleasure to hear the latest episode!
I would love to see an episode on different Theories of Atonement, in scripture and in later christian traditions.
Anything like this in the works?
This is so interesting! I had never heard about the mythology of Sophia and Yahweh as the dark character. It really is like stories of being in a time of darkness.
Gnosticism is just early Quantum Physics. As Max Planck said, Consciousness is Fundamental.
You Newtonians can't explain the Measurement Problem.
The attack on Mary by Peter and most of the other apostles , hints at the patriarchal control we see in the writing of not only most Christian text , but the power structure of the church as well.
The Abrahamic religions to this day keep a tight leash on woman , not just in the secular world , but as religious teachers as well. We see that the Magdalena writings didn't even make the final cut of the Cannon. And I agree with you that it had to be written by a hellenistic Christian because a Jewish wouldn't have written it . Thank you so much for this. . . ... .. .... ..... .. Q~anon loves Bart Her-Man
I feel the need to share the moment my mother passed away in Ireland in 2012.
Briefly I had been with her for the last 3 days holding her hand, when she stopped breathing I reached down to give her a hug and was met with this beautiful force rising from her body, it went through me and out my back heading upwards. I looked down and immediately realized that this was the vessel that carried my Mother's soul, her suffering was over.
Your message here resonated with me for that reason.
My lecturer later told me that was my Mother's greatest gift to me, the confirmation that I always knew, what happens at death.
Mary is the only disciple that has ever captivated my attention, when I pray it is always to her.
This interpretation from you has helped me immensely on my journey.
Thank you and may God bless you 🙏.
Gotta give Megan credit for those ripper specs!
Gnosticism sounds a little bit like Scientology but cheaper.
😂😂😂👌
Altho gnosticism came into being way earlier 😅
I noticed that too.
@@timcampbell2023 😂
Gnosticism doesn't have any followers who are movie stars. That's probably why they're less successful.
Within the last year I have been listening to a band named Draconian and their new album Under A Godless Veil. The whole album is about Sophia. I am also currently taking a Humanities class and asked the professor if we'd be talking about Gnosticism, and he said no, but it would be worthy of an in depth exploration of early Christianity. So, here I am for the lecture he shared pertaining to the song "Sorrow of Sophia" and any further information I may gain as a solid start for research. The song "The Sacrificial Flame," is another song by Draconian, which mentions Achamoth. It is making me believe the album is referring to Valentinianism.
It makes more sense after a nice bout of psychosis
The entities discussed around the 9:00 minute mark sound very Greek to me.
*36:10** the cackling jesus is an image we need in more churches.* wonderful. _JC
How much of gnosticism is derived from Marcion?
Either something the kid watched/played or someone definitely said something at school. It could also have been something in the background; kids are oddly perceptive when bored
My 5 year old is also obsessed with death in the last few months. Asking if kids can die, when I’m going to die. When he’s going to die. It’s a super tough question to answer! Especially when you get it at the most random times.
If you have come up with good answers please let me know!! 😉
But how is it hard to answer? You just say yes we're all going to die and no one knows when
lol@"believe it or not"... I love me some inadvertent humor.
This gnostic cosmology is pretty ridiculous tho lol but the knowledge of secret of salvation is tempting one. The passwords to go from material world to spiritual world is weird. It's more like pagan theories of afterlife. Instead the password for gnostics is practice of religious law, I think.
Thank you.
There was a theosophical movement in Russia which influenced late 19th-century Russian literature.
John couldn't read or write...same for peter?
Very profound the subject, a little shallow the presentation. Where is the gnosis beyond these historic complexities?
We so need more gnosticism! How was its decline like and how come we much reminds me of Eastern religions
The Gnostics' "sparks" idea is echoed in Chasidism. Coincidence?
I'd love to hear his theories on what we have to do to come back? I don't think we have to do anything, we only have to do things to escape the wheel of reincarnation.
i love those glasses that megan has!!
I think I was five or six on a family road trip and one night I just realized that I was going to die someday and I was terrified. I still am now.
Gnostics sound like the ancient equivalent of conspiracy theorists today. How conspiracy theorists believe they know the truth about what shape the earth is, the truth about some historical event, who really rules the world etc.
Cults have always been popular lol.
So, Gnosticism is basically Hinduism with different terminology. They were trying to bring back the Old Tradition.
If the message of the Historical Jesus was primarily centered around the idea that "The (earthly) Kingdom of God is coming soon, you must repent and love your neighbor in order to enter the Kingdom," then I am wondering how that message gave rise to gnostic ideas like secret knowledge, enlightenment, transcending the material world and the God of the Old Testament being a flawed entity? The two central messages seem very disconnected to me.
They're, they were just really into Plotinus
There was never one such thing as gnosticism. Many sects with different beliefs.
When I first discovered Epicurus 35 years ago...
I was all like, "where's the bullshit? I mean even the Stoics are full of it much of the time (nobody's that tough)."
Then Bart just said, "what we have from him is so little. "
Oh...right...like all religion and philosophy...they get around to incredible bullshit...if you just let them get around to it.
Thank whatever we have so little.
Some of his thoughts on friendship go against our common moral intuitions and verge on egoism, not that there's anything wrong with that but yeah he's pretty great.
I looked up the book “Against the Gnostics” and Amazon gives it a 4.5/5. Kinda chuckled at that.. who was hating on Plotinus in the reviews? 😂
27:40: I'm a Gnostic too. But I don't have the knowledge, I *_search_* for it. It is within me, but my understanding of Platonism is not quite there yet, and the psychology determined by mathematics (similar to sociobiology, but regarding the mind) is not quite clear. The imagery of Gnosticism being a heretical Christianity or Judaism is misleading. Gnosticism is something else.
I wish that Bart hadn't spoken about his preferred relatively narrow view of gnosticism exclusively. There's a great deal more to be said about gnosticism than he touched on in this gloss of the topic.
Missing years of Jesus ? He travelled to India & Studied Buddhism , Hinduism & other religions. There is still a Jewish tribe in north part of India. Believe it or not, Afghans ( yes, Taliban) were jews originally.
I keep expecting Megan to end the intro with a switcheroo, “Welcome to Misquoting Jesus with Bart Ehrman, the only show where a six time NYT bestselling author and world renowned Bible scholar, interviews Bart Ehrman.”
I loved Bart's answer on the LGBTIQA question. It almost had me in tears.
A great episode. Thank you.
@15:17 "...and, at the end, the Divine being left Jesus, which is why on the cross, Jesus cries out, 'my God, my God, why have you forsaken me', God has left him..."
That rendering sorta conflicts with:
John 8:29 KJV And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
What are "those things that please him"? Please reconsider a couple chapters later:
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Jesus' commandment was to submit to crucifixion. Yet, many believe God forsook Jesus, while on the cross, doing that which God commanded Jesus to do, that pleases the Father.. for which his Father even loved him? That sounds pretty incongruent that Father God would forsake his Son at that explicit moment in time. To the contrary, and long known among lay theologians (and heretics, LOL)... What, then, was Jesus saying from the cross... "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Among the crucifixion onlookers, many fluent in the OT... Jesus was fulfilling the previously unknown prophesy of the crucifixion found in King David's time of grief:
Psalm 22:KJV 1{To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.} My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Here's the link to King David's previously unknown prophesy of the crucifixion in that chapter:
biblehub.com/kjv/psalms/22.htm
Quite likely... Jesus rehearsed David's entire Psalm 22 prophesy from the cross, but only the first words of Psalm 22, were sufficient to refer the OT theologians to that prophesy... being fulfilled right in front of the eyes of his detractors... That kinda pull those verses together? Real simple for a heretical 'gnostic' (LOL!)
Mormonism almost could be renamed The American Gnostic Catholic Church 😂
Explains the malevolence of the OT (and, if you ask me, of the NT) God quite well, but of course it‘s as crazy as any other religion.
Of the two(orthodox Christianity and gnostisim) I would pick gnostisim.
The secret teaching is secret only to the ignorant.
To those who are awake, the secret teaching is known.
The gateway is to begin by knowing YOU.
Out of a timeless world
Shadows fall upon Time,
From a beauty older than earth
A ladder the soul may climb.
I climb by the phantom stair
To a whiteness older than Time.
Regarding death: speculation is not science, instead ask NDE:ers and neurophysiologists! Philosophy is how we sort and arrange thoughts, science is about facts. If we want to know what Epicurus thought of death, the topic is what Epicurus thought of death, not death.
our existence here is an evil curse. I hate it and yet I have to continue. why God puts us thru such a disgusting experience is itself a sad mystery warranting an answer.
My answer is: Why do you blame God ?
Why so pessimistic?
I don’t hold the Bible as moral authority, so don’t take this as my view but Leviticus is clearly against both homosexuality and cross dressing, but not trans identity per se. So according to Mitzvot you theoretically could be trans but you’d have to have a hetero or asexual orientation and dress according to your gender. You could interpret what the Torah considers your “base gender” for these two commandments as either the one from birth or the one at identificaation depending on how mean you want to be. But it’s hard to map to a book that had no concept of gender dysphoria
I mean yeah dude: it was written in the early Iron Age into classical antiquity based off of Bronze Age mythology. It’s basically the invented folklore and traditions of a Semitic people so old they forgot why they codified them, being further interpreted by non-Jews who had no idea of its context, and since then by further peoples with even more opaque understandings of the subject matter. It’s basically a bunch of literary prose, books of poetic tales and phrases, transposed with a bunch of archaic legal mumbo-jumbo.
Let's begin ...love from Pakistan 🇵🇰
The bottom line is, Gnosticism is cool and you know it!
While the church fathers were laughing at gnostics Jesus was laughing at church fathers for their ridiculous theology of Resurrection, atonement of sins and salvation by believing these concepts.
It all happened due to one man called Paul who invented a divine Jesus to market his religion to the Roman Gentiles whereas Jesus was an ordinary messiah to the Children of Israel. By projecting a human Jesus to divinity he paved the way for gnosticism and Catholicism.
All of early Christians were Jews. They believed both in Jesus and Old Testament. Professor James D.G.Dunn who was a professor of divinity in the department of theology at University of Durham, UK who was also an ordained minister of church of Scotland and the Methodist Church of Great Britain, has written a book titled Unity and Diversity: Inquiry into the character of earliest Christianity in which he says
- Jewish Christians continued to obey the laws in Old testament
- It was evident that they believed in Judaism and Jesus.
- All theological beliefs that were later introduced by Paul were absent.
- In150AD and beyond the situation become significantly changed that the Jewish Christianity so far being the only Christianity was branded as unorthodox and heretical.
- Second century AD heretical Jewish Christianity was closer to the earliest Christianity than any other forms of Christianity that existed in Roman lands.