"a 19-tuplet, and I'll probably almost never need to do that" That comment aged well with the new Sungazer track lol. Now you need to play them every show
he must've been exposed to massive amounts of ionizing tuplet radiation as a child or something, it's such a defining element of his compositional style
Great video, and thanks for the shout-out! Interesting to think about the relative accessibility of the 'swung quintuplets' kind of sound versus additive rhythms.
Mate your content must be great. I just realized i didn’t finish this video when I watched it months ago, _because?_ *i stopped the video to go learn some quintuplet grooves.* Any video that I have to pause to go play drums, is an inspirational one.
I’m glad Shaun mentioned J Dilla, as thats what instantly comes to my mind anytime I hear a quintuplet beat. Old school 90s hip hop that lags and slides around the beat.
Probably not quite as topical for this channel, but I'm a big fan of Simeon ten Holt's Canto Ostinato. 1 full hour of nothing but wonderful quintuplets.
For what it's worth, Salt + Charcoal off that same EP is mostly in 7-tuplet. But yes, Flaneur is probably my personal favourite example of a really nice quintuplet feel.
Thanks all for the Spotify playlist suggestions! Lot of great stuff in there. I've been updating it with new additions and have also expanded it to include some 7-tuplets and other tuplety grooves. Keep 'em coming!
Hey Shawn! I've been trying to find someplaylist or forum where people listed quintuplet swing songs for more than an year now, so I'm super happy that your making this playlist, specially since you'll know well what is or isn't quintuplet (/septuplet/n-tuplet) swing. I have some suggestions, though I'm not a drummer and haven't gone into detail trying to figure out if these are actually quintuplet swing or just unquantized feel: Alfa Mist - Sunrise (Pillows) ...I'm nearly completely sure this one is QS Anderson Paak. - Heart Don't Stand A Chance ...The main part of this one I'm pretty sure as well Hiatus Kayote - Jekyll ...The end I believe is in quintuplet Hiatus Kayote - Fingerprints ... This one I'm not sure, but it gives me a similar feeling that's why i believe it is and then parts of Hiatus Kayote's Molasses and Swamp Thing
10:16 "What's the hardest thing that i would ever need to do? Which is like a 19-tuplet, and i'll probably almost never need to do that." Never say never, uh?
I'm so glad you're doing these types of videos! I love the format but focusing on the rhythm side of music, I think there is a wealth of theory videos that don't cover enough of this so thank you!
Its nice to think of meters as combinations of 1s, 2s and 3s for sticking. Its nice to think of meters as binary for going through the combinations of accentuation. eg. 00000 10000 01000 11000 00100 10100 0100 11100 (accent 1s) Its nice to think of odd meters as polyrythms for realitycheck, eg. im wondering if Im playing the gnawa rythm (4+3+3) right, accent every fourth beat so that the different meters meet the second time.
I find that quintuplets are incredibly flexible when it comes to going off the grid by playing most notes early or late, it's one of my favorite ''templates'' to mess around with to get many different feels. A simple even swinging pattern always has this jump with odd rhythms, by going off the grid you can ease that jump and even justify placing it in the middle of the rhythm rather than at the end. I only recently learned about nested tuplets, these can also really cool for changing certain gaps when a certain section of rhythm doesn't quite lead into another.
Great video as usual, a favourite trick of mine is to play the big laid back quintuplet swing and then switch to quick 5/8 licks as RLRLK or RLRLL blazing around and then back to the laid back feel while keeping to the quintuplet grid. The contast is killer.
Man, what a great video. Another argument as to how jazz seems to be further influenced by hiphop which for better or for worse makes it much more accessible than say the fusion of the late 60s and 70s, I'm pretty stoked on this.
Your videos are great on so many levels. You go for the deep dive on whatever subject you’re discussing and i’m riveted the entire time. Please keep making these. Your take and your intricate explanations are super informative and interesting.
Damn, I really dig your videos. Came over from Adam (as a bass player myself) but stayed for the quality content. Keep it up! And don't me counting away over here... 1 + 2 + 3, 1 + 2 + 3, 1 + 2 + 3...
I always love it when you upload new videos Shawn. I'm a huge harmony nerd but I still have so much to learn about rhythm and it's hard to even get started when you've only ever learned it from other harmony nerds
Here are more examples :-) Phronesis - French Phronesis - The tree did not die Phronesis - 4 now Phronesis - Rabat Morten Schantz - Godspeed Marius Neset - Music for Drums and Saxophone Eric Garland - Eminence Sam Crowe Group - Circles Tigran Hamasyan - Etude No. 1 Tigran Hamasyan - Erishta Vijay Iyer - Aftermath Punch Brothers - It's All Part of the Plan Yshai Afterman - Lomer Bustan Abraham - Igrig Coeuts - Vengo de Moler Coetus - Don Gato سعدي توفيق - توبه من المحبه اتوبه من المحبة - امل خضير
"We tend to like things that are familiar to us, and dislike things that are not" - I'm not sure I agree, at least from my personal experience. One thing I've noticed about my tastes in music is that I'm drawn towards music that I can't mentally "predict" - i.e. that is not familiar to me. The longer it takes for me to become familiar with it, the more I like it. One of the first songs I remember that I noticed this with was "Tetsuo" from the Akira soundtrack. There's a lot of unpredictable rhythms in there, and it probably took me.. dozens or even hundreds of listens to get comfortable enough with the music so that I could accurately mentally predict what was coming up - and I absolutely loved it. The same experience has happened to me on many occasions since. A lot of Michael Gordon's work is like that for me too. e.g. his "Vincent van Gogh" opera. It's those songs, or those parts of songs that I tend to be drawn to the most.
It's true in general, which is different from saying it's true for every individual. Even so the point isn't "people don't like things they aren't 100% familiar with," which is obviously wrong otherwise nobody would ever want to experience any new ever, but rather than people are more likely to like something the more familiar they are. So for that song you might have been caught completely off-guard by the rhythms but you're probably still familiar with the types of instruments used, with the system of tonality, with the concept of recorded sound as an artform and so on. Unless you were just born it wouldn't have been entirely alien to you so you had some familiarity to latch onto while experiencing the unfamiliar.
Yes! I agree we need a certain amount of unpredictability. Otherwise it'd be boring. I've experienced the same thing with Afro-Cuban music - where the timing is not quantized, and thus a bit unpredictable. And that's exciting! The main thing I've noticed in my experience is that certain "complex" music grows on me over time. I might not like it initially, but I grow to really love it after many listens. As a teenager, for example, I used to be put off by some of Dream Theater's meter changes. It was too unpredictable, so it took several listens to appreciate. But these days, since those rhythms are all quite familiar, nothing really phases me on the first listen. Even though I don't know the meter changes in advance, I'm still hearing "familiar" bits -- "oh, that was a 5, then a 7, then a 3" so it's all "familiar"... even if it's unpredictable. These days I'm much more sensitive to harmony/melody, since I'm pretty much game for anything rhythm-wise. But if it gets too atonal, or just too "out there", it's a turn off. Though I suspect it'd grow on me if I listened more. Anyway, if the music is good and you like it, that's good enough! Sometimes there is no reason "why" we like something. And that's ok.
@@TheSquareOnes In the Akira case, it was actually my first experience with gamelan (or at least gamelan-inspired) music, so the instruments, the genre and probably even the tonality to some extent was fairly unknown to me.
@@myxfit I feel like you're missing the point but I'm not really interested in arguing it further. You can try to understand this widely documented psychological phenomenon and how it applies to your own life or you can choose to believe that you're the most special person ever, either way is fine. I was just trying to clear up what looks like a misunderstanding of what the mere-exposure effect is and what it means.
@@TheSquareOnes I wasn't particularly even arguing against (or for) your point. Just sharing further details of my personal anecdote. I certainly don't see a need for the snippy personal attack, but hey, whatever floats your boat :)
Hi Shawn, I really appreciated the video but I have to say I don't very much agree with your advice on the counting method. I totally see the merit of that system and I admit I still use it sometimes today, but the point in my opinion is that the most appropriate and natural sounding way of approaching rhythms with tuplets (and this can be applied to odd time signatures as well) is to follow the shape that the rhythm of the riff or the melody in question is communicating. For example if you have a 7 with this shape '1001000' (or basically a 3+4), I cannot ignore the ternarity implied by that first 3 that is the thing that gives that particular flow to this rhythm. The listener's ear no matter what will interpret that as something ternary and not as an upbeat on 2 (unless is against quarter notes, but still) that's what's cool about these rhythms, everyone of those almost has a personality given by the internal division of the pattern. I'm not obviously saying to learn all the 128 permutations, it's not what I teach my students, but as we approach these concepts they will always be related to some kind of riff, as musicians we need to serve the music after all, so at least we have give importance to what's presented to us and after that we can start changing stuff around and improvising. To me your method looks a little bit too mechanic and I'm saying this because I used to use it and sometimes I felt was going against the musicality of my phrases. And the improv by the way will always be connected to the original pattern in some way, either by similarity or by contrast, so my advice would be to first understand what's in front of you and then apply variations with that original shape always in one corner of our mind. Thank you again, and great job with the Sungazer stuff.
1. As always, huge respect for the execution in these videos. Please don’t stop. 💗 2. Something to possibly add to the playlist would be “moiré” by xuiqen. The step length is 35, and was intended to present an option of feeling it as 7 quintuplets or as a 9/4 with a slight skip. 🙂
Haken is a great way to get into odd time signatures. They do a lot of 7/8 and 5/4 in a way that doesn't feel jarring. They were my gateway to musical "oddness".
Shawn! what an awesome video, thorough and inspiring! it's always fun to hear about how other drummers experimenting on the drum set reach similar conclusions (i.e. keeping an evenly placed kick and snare relationship while varying hi-hat subdivisions). Keep the great vids coming!
I really appreciate your explanation of counting rhythms, you’ve given me some info to chew on 😊 I’m totally gonna paint with these colours much thanks ❤️
Another track you could add is Midnight Mischief by Jordan Rakei, which has an extended quintuplet groove starting around the 3:45 mark and otherwise is just a fantastic song
yeah_! i actually wrote in 2015 many studies of independence of that clave and many others against binary triplet quintuplet etc rhythmic permutations all builded inside the quintuplet subdivision of the pulse, actually you can mantain binary or whatever rhythm modulatin softly the metric tuplet by tuplet, increasing or decreasing, i think Tulio Araujo has developed that in an impressive way
I think i see your point about needing to count. But I think that's more important when getting deep into music. For us newbies it might be better to just feel it for a while, at least until we love music too much to escape anymore.
I know. :( Sometimes used copies still pop up. I'm hoping he re-opens the web store at some point. Best I can say for now is go for the Drum Guru app. The counting system in the odd meter lesson is the same that's used for tuplets (just faster).
Hey Shawn! I wanted to congratulate you for the amazing content that you've been making. I also want to ask you a question (or maybe for some advice): I am a drummer that lately has been interested in the worlds of jazz and fusion drumming, I started to experiment and learn via my love of prog rock (especially the older stuff). Could you offer some tips or recommend certain online courses/TH-cam videos/books that could help me grasp the art of jazz drumming? Thanks in advance!
@@nosfy Keep up this great mentality! I've been a metal drummer for 6 years, but now I wanna transition to jazz in order to expand my pallette and stuff.
Thanks, this has been my new goto thing sinds the video of (ofcourse Adam) but I really like the extra depth you put into it! Also like to use the septuplets in my drumcomputer (use a 14 steps).
Joel Rothman has a - new out of print - book on quintuplet based swing coordination exercises ... it is very odd (no pun indeed) and was/is very visionary on his part. The "flow" between bass and snare, underneath two quintuple variations of the jazz ride, is very challenging and will prompt very unique motion patterns ...
Hey, Shawn! Just now I rediscovered some Maloya I lovelovelove, which is Danyèl Waro's album Monmon from 2017. One of the songs on this album might be what got me into quintuplet swing to begin with, it's called Naraini. It's really fun to hear the vocals parts being completely relaxed rhythmically on top of the strict 5-grid. The song Panga also has a hint of 5, but is more like a relaxed 3. I hope you take a listen and discover something you like!
Ta ka de me de... is how I count fives. It really rolls out of the mouth easily. I think I got that from Anika Niles, or maybe from Indian counting systems (kona kol?)?
Would recommend checking out Tigran's Nairian Odyssey, its initial motif has a 7 tuplet swing, on 1 and 5, really interesting song as well. 4/4 feel with 7 tuplets.
so i actually kinda went through the reverse of learning tuplets, i kinda- used tuplets more often than regular time signatures so recently iv kinda moved away from that kinda additive rhythm, to straight rhythms in odd time signatures. in fact i recently created a track in 11/4 that used a straight rhythm, no 3 + 3 + 2 etc just literally 11 beats, and i gotta say its a lot more interesting than dividing a beat into 11 parts.
Speaking from personal experience: it's interesting/funny how for musicians (and especially drummers) the reaction to (a) relatively straightforward odd time signatures and (b) quintuplets and other uses of subdivisions is flipped around compared to the reaction of people less exposed to these concepts. musicians: - odd time signatures: "yup, that's 9/8 there, cool. Yup, that's 7/8." Even, "yup, they're doing 15/16" - quintuple shuffle: "woah! I need to understand what's going on here... something feels off, I feel slightly uneasy, but I'm intrigued" non-musicians: - odd time signature: "I'm uncomfortable, I don't understand what's going on." - quintuple shuffle: "cool, I can bob my head to this 4/4 beat." I think this is consistent with the mere-exposure effect you describe
Hey Shaun! This video has been really informative, but I'm floored by your spotify playlist with quintuplet feels! Is there anyway you can either make or ask your community to make a playlist with modulations and/or implied meter?
There's a world of difference between odd time signatures/tuplet subdivisions and frequently changing time signatures. You can always establish a groove that people will dance to in just about any time signature, but when the pulse is constantly moving around it forces you to either be "in" on it having heard the song before or give up and focus on the texture/arrangement of that section. I think this is why so many prog bands use that as bridges, breakdowns, and the like.
Sugarcane by Nubiyan Twist has a pretty sick Quintuplet swing throughout it and then an awesome quintuplet filled riff towards the end. Please add to playlist to help this amazing group out
Does anyone use letters to count rhythms? Like repeating "a b c d e" for counting out fives or "a b c d e f g" for sevens. The letters (at least before you get to W) have nice and short names of roughly uniform length, so it just struck me that it might work well for counting these larger numbers without having to break them up into smaller chunks at all, and risk sort of biasing yourself toward certain accents over others.
The arguable places that Zappa uses a quintuplet shuffle (that I'm aware of) are the "oh yeah" in Penguin in Bondage and also in Didja Get Any Onya? The first example is just a short fragment that isn't played over the main beat of the song, and the second example is more like a fast beat in 5 with all the stress on the 1 and 3. Again, it's arguable whether it's a shuffle or just an additive rhythm.
Oh, brother! You deserve so much more attention!!! You're the best rhythm (and music, why not?) teacher I've ever had! But then again... You have to weight Quality versus Popularity, right? Don't go the Adam Neely way, keep teaching useful stuff. (Not a knock on Adam, I still love his content, but it changed a lot)
All we do is copy each other. It is difficult to be original unless we take the same pattern and twist it in a new way. A lot of thought goes into it. Nicely done video, though. Thank you, sir
Now I’m interested in the very subtle swing of septuplets. Or even a more extreme version of swing using septuplets, where instead of the 2:1 you have the slightly more swung 5:2. The subtle one mentioned earlier being of the ratio 4:3.
I’am applying swing to an house song, so consider that kick and claps are mostly no affected by swing. In this case swing percentage is applied by my sequencer. But hi hats, shakers and other percussions are getting more groove from the swings. I’m undecided between quintuplets and septuplets swing setting, any suggestion between these two? Considering a deep house song about 119 bpm, thanks
Yeah. I thought I was pretty advanced re: odd time sigs and rhythmic concepts until I watched some of Crowder's vids. Nope. I'm not advanced. Let's say intermediate at best. Keep up the great work Mr. Crowder, I'm learning a ton from u and love the Sungazer stuff. Can't wait to hear the next bunch of 'Gazer tunes.
Malcom Braffs arrangement of “Berimbau” (sick in between triplet and quintuplet swing) and Esos castillos ridiculos que nos inventamos by Bolsa de naylon en la rama de un arbol (straight 4/4 with each pulse subdivided in quintuplets$
Thanks for the playlist. Salt - Caligula’s Horse feels like a it is using quintuplets but I’m not quite sure, sixteenth quintuplets notes or whatever they are at that speed is a bit too fast for me to count.
I once heard a Bulgarian folk song called “Sedi Donka” which was in 25/16. Counted 3+2+2+3+2+2+2+2+3+2+2. I guess I could’ve benefited from watching this video before learning the song.
No, it wouldn't help you and could hamper you in that specific endeavor. Sedi Donka is a typical additive rhythm that happens to add up to a multiple of 5, but it doesn't have any meaningful quinary structure. It's 7+7+11, like two bars of chetvorno horo and one bar of kopanitsa.
Just got into a college jazz band for the first time and everyone in our rhythm section is playing 5 stuff all the time haha
I see your comments everywhere!
"a 19-tuplet, and I'll probably almost never need to do that" That comment aged well with the new Sungazer track lol. Now you need to play them every show
always good to get the skills just in case
Threshold 😍😍
frank zappa watching this:
you merely adapted the touplets...
I WAS BORN IN IT
he must've been exposed to massive amounts of ionizing tuplet radiation as a child or something, it's such a defining element of his compositional style
@Wadsmitter He grew up next to a chemical factory of some sorts, his father even worked there. He got chronically sick because of that (frank)
Gayyy
you merely adapted the tuplets... into tupplets.
cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0806/7971/products/Frank-Zappa-T-Shirt-Dont-Mess-Around-Tee-Black_2000x.jpg?v=1571499109
just got home, "uploaded 37 seconds ago"
perfect timing
1 min ago
Still feel the same way.
Pun intended?
"uploaded 8 months ago"
perfect timing
Great video, and thanks for the shout-out! Interesting to think about the relative accessibility of the 'swung quintuplets' kind of sound versus additive rhythms.
Thanks David!
Hiiii David!!!
Mate your content must be great. I just realized i didn’t finish this video when I watched it months ago, _because?_
*i stopped the video to go learn some quintuplet grooves.*
Any video that I have to pause to go play drums, is an inspirational one.
I’m glad Shaun mentioned J Dilla, as thats what instantly comes to my mind anytime I hear a quintuplet beat. Old school 90s hip hop that lags and slides around the beat.
My favorite song with quintuplets is flâneur by plini
I'll add it to the playlist. :)
Handmade cities by Plini contains quintuplets as well...i'm going to check the playlist for more, love this rhythm
Probably not quite as topical for this channel, but I'm a big fan of Simeon ten Holt's Canto Ostinato. 1 full hour of nothing but wonderful quintuplets.
For what it's worth, Salt + Charcoal off that same EP is mostly in 7-tuplet. But yes, Flaneur is probably my personal favourite example of a really nice quintuplet feel.
Keplar by Victoria as well
5:11 repetition legitimises
5:11 repetition legitimises
5:11 lepetition regitimises
Repetition legitimises
5:11 repetition legitimizes
5:11 repetition legitimises
Thanks all for the Spotify playlist suggestions! Lot of great stuff in there. I've been updating it with new additions and have also expanded it to include some 7-tuplets and other tuplety grooves. Keep 'em coming!
Hey Shawn! I've been trying to find someplaylist or forum where people listed quintuplet swing songs for more than an year now, so I'm super happy that your making this playlist, specially since you'll know well what is or isn't quintuplet (/septuplet/n-tuplet) swing.
I have some suggestions, though I'm not a drummer and haven't gone into detail trying to figure out if these are actually quintuplet swing or just unquantized feel:
Alfa Mist - Sunrise (Pillows) ...I'm nearly completely sure this one is QS
Anderson Paak. - Heart Don't Stand A Chance ...The main part of this one I'm pretty sure as well
Hiatus Kayote - Jekyll ...The end I believe is in quintuplet
Hiatus Kayote - Fingerprints ... This one I'm not sure, but it gives me a similar feeling that's why i believe it is
and then parts of Hiatus Kayote's Molasses and Swamp Thing
Esos castillos ridículos que nos inventamos by Bolsa de naylon en la rama de un arbol, full quintuplets!
th-cam.com/video/rgzd3Lc9B2A/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for including Shwesmo in your playlist, i'd never heard of his music before and it absolutely made my day. Just fantastic
"A 19-tuplet, and I'll almost never need to do that"
2 years later and he needed to do that
10:16 "What's the hardest thing that i would ever need to do? Which is like a 19-tuplet, and i'll probably almost never need to do that."
Never say never, uh?
I'm so glad you're doing these types of videos! I love the format but focusing on the rhythm side of music, I think there is a wealth of theory videos that don't cover enough of this so thank you!
"19/16"
Me, in Ireland: "Nice"
Its nice to think of meters as combinations of 1s, 2s and 3s for sticking.
Its nice to think of meters as binary for going through the combinations of accentuation. eg. 00000 10000 01000 11000 00100 10100 0100 11100 (accent 1s)
Its nice to think of odd meters as polyrythms for realitycheck, eg. im wondering if Im playing the gnawa rythm (4+3+3) right, accent every fourth beat so that the different meters meet the second time.
That binary accentuation is something I really like! Thanks for exposing me to it!
I love your vids. You should upload content more often. Greetings from Poland btw
I find that quintuplets are incredibly flexible when it comes to going off the grid by playing most notes early or late, it's one of my favorite ''templates'' to mess around with to get many different feels. A simple even swinging pattern always has this jump with odd rhythms, by going off the grid you can ease that jump and even justify placing it in the middle of the rhythm rather than at the end. I only recently learned about nested tuplets, these can also really cool for changing certain gaps when a certain section of rhythm doesn't quite lead into another.
I very much appreciate the way that you are both precise and intellectually honest in the way you talk
Great video as usual, a favourite trick of mine is to play the big laid back quintuplet swing and then switch to quick 5/8 licks as RLRLK or RLRLL blazing around and then back to the laid back feel while keeping to the quintuplet grid. The contast is killer.
Man, what a great video. Another argument as to how jazz seems to be further influenced by hiphop which for better or for worse makes it much more accessible than say the fusion of the late 60s and 70s, I'm pretty stoked on this.
Chris Sheridan I think it’s the opposite way round
@@ogmiom3887 definitely seeing that way too, it's very creatively interesting cross pollination
Eyyy throwing out zappa. Not enough people talk about his music. Not enough people know who he is. Legends never die and he's one of them in my heart.
Love that you showed a clip of Matt Garstka at the beginning, I think he may be the best drummer of his generation.
I’d like to see people make some pop songs in odd time signatures like soundgarden did.
we need full live video "sequence start"! please!
Its already on this channel, look it up
Your videos are great on so many levels. You go for the deep dive on whatever subject you’re discussing and i’m riveted the entire time. Please keep making these. Your take and your intricate explanations are super informative and interesting.
Damn, I really dig your videos. Came over from Adam (as a bass player myself) but stayed for the quality content. Keep it up!
And don't me counting away over here... 1 + 2 + 3, 1 + 2 + 3, 1 + 2 + 3...
I'm not a drummer at all, but your content is SO good. Thanks for all the hard work.
I always love it when you upload new videos Shawn. I'm a huge harmony nerd but I still have so much to learn about rhythm and it's hard to even get started when you've only ever learned it from other harmony nerds
Here are more examples :-)
Phronesis - French
Phronesis - The tree did not die
Phronesis - 4 now
Phronesis - Rabat
Morten Schantz - Godspeed
Marius Neset - Music for Drums and Saxophone
Eric Garland - Eminence
Sam Crowe Group - Circles
Tigran Hamasyan - Etude No. 1
Tigran Hamasyan - Erishta
Vijay Iyer - Aftermath
Punch Brothers - It's All Part of the Plan
Yshai Afterman - Lomer
Bustan Abraham - Igrig
Coeuts - Vengo de Moler
Coetus - Don Gato
سعدي توفيق - توبه من المحبه
اتوبه من المحبة - امل خضير
Thanks! Some great stuff here. I added a few to the playlist. :)
"The more we are exposed to something the more likely we are to like it"
Reggaeton makes me a clear exception to this rule.
"We tend to like things that are familiar to us, and dislike things that are not" - I'm not sure I agree, at least from my personal experience. One thing I've noticed about my tastes in music is that I'm drawn towards music that I can't mentally "predict" - i.e. that is not familiar to me. The longer it takes for me to become familiar with it, the more I like it. One of the first songs I remember that I noticed this with was "Tetsuo" from the Akira soundtrack. There's a lot of unpredictable rhythms in there, and it probably took me.. dozens or even hundreds of listens to get comfortable enough with the music so that I could accurately mentally predict what was coming up - and I absolutely loved it.
The same experience has happened to me on many occasions since. A lot of Michael Gordon's work is like that for me too. e.g. his "Vincent van Gogh" opera. It's those songs, or those parts of songs that I tend to be drawn to the most.
It's true in general, which is different from saying it's true for every individual. Even so the point isn't "people don't like things they aren't 100% familiar with," which is obviously wrong otherwise nobody would ever want to experience any new ever, but rather than people are more likely to like something the more familiar they are. So for that song you might have been caught completely off-guard by the rhythms but you're probably still familiar with the types of instruments used, with the system of tonality, with the concept of recorded sound as an artform and so on. Unless you were just born it wouldn't have been entirely alien to you so you had some familiarity to latch onto while experiencing the unfamiliar.
Yes! I agree we need a certain amount of unpredictability. Otherwise it'd be boring. I've experienced the same thing with Afro-Cuban music - where the timing is not quantized, and thus a bit unpredictable. And that's exciting!
The main thing I've noticed in my experience is that certain "complex" music grows on me over time. I might not like it initially, but I grow to really love it after many listens. As a teenager, for example, I used to be put off by some of Dream Theater's meter changes. It was too unpredictable, so it took several listens to appreciate. But these days, since those rhythms are all quite familiar, nothing really phases me on the first listen. Even though I don't know the meter changes in advance, I'm still hearing "familiar" bits -- "oh, that was a 5, then a 7, then a 3" so it's all "familiar"... even if it's unpredictable.
These days I'm much more sensitive to harmony/melody, since I'm pretty much game for anything rhythm-wise. But if it gets too atonal, or just too "out there", it's a turn off. Though I suspect it'd grow on me if I listened more.
Anyway, if the music is good and you like it, that's good enough! Sometimes there is no reason "why" we like something. And that's ok.
@@TheSquareOnes In the Akira case, it was actually my first experience with gamelan (or at least gamelan-inspired) music, so the instruments, the genre and probably even the tonality to some extent was fairly unknown to me.
@@myxfit I feel like you're missing the point but I'm not really interested in arguing it further. You can try to understand this widely documented psychological phenomenon and how it applies to your own life or you can choose to believe that you're the most special person ever, either way is fine. I was just trying to clear up what looks like a misunderstanding of what the mere-exposure effect is and what it means.
@@TheSquareOnes I wasn't particularly even arguing against (or for) your point. Just sharing further details of my personal anecdote. I certainly don't see a need for the snippy personal attack, but hey, whatever floats your boat :)
Hi Shawn, I really appreciated the video but I have to say I don't very much agree with your advice on the counting method. I totally see the merit of that system and I admit I still use it sometimes today, but the point in my opinion is that the most appropriate and natural sounding way of approaching rhythms with tuplets (and this can be applied to odd time signatures as well) is to follow the shape that the rhythm of the riff or the melody in question is communicating. For example if you have a 7 with this shape '1001000' (or basically a 3+4), I cannot ignore the ternarity implied by that first 3 that is the thing that gives that particular flow to this rhythm. The listener's ear no matter what will interpret that as something ternary and not as an upbeat on 2 (unless is against quarter notes, but still) that's what's cool about these rhythms, everyone of those almost has a personality given by the internal division of the pattern. I'm not obviously saying to learn all the 128 permutations, it's not what I teach my students, but as we approach these concepts they will always be related to some kind of riff, as musicians we need to serve the music after all, so at least we have give importance to what's presented to us and after that we can start changing stuff around and improvising. To me your method looks a little bit too mechanic and I'm saying this because I used to use it and sometimes I felt was going against the musicality of my phrases. And the improv by the way will always be connected to the original pattern in some way, either by similarity or by contrast, so my advice would be to first understand what's in front of you and then apply variations with that original shape always in one corner of our mind. Thank you again, and great job with the Sungazer stuff.
1. As always, huge respect for the execution in these videos. Please don’t stop. 💗
2. Something to possibly add to the playlist would be “moiré” by xuiqen. The step length is 35, and was intended to present an option of feeling it as 7 quintuplets or as a 9/4 with a slight skip. 🙂
Ah man LOVE your videos. Since I saw you playing with Adam I knew you were a real one! Thank you!!
Haken is a great way to get into odd time signatures. They do a lot of 7/8 and 5/4 in a way that doesn't feel jarring. They were my gateway to musical "oddness".
this video is based on different note rates, specifically quintuplets, not odd time signatures.
Snarky puppy has some killer grooves in 5s
Shawn! what an awesome video, thorough and inspiring! it's always fun to hear about how other drummers experimenting on the drum set reach similar conclusions (i.e. keeping an evenly placed kick and snare relationship while varying hi-hat subdivisions). Keep the great vids coming!
I really appreciate your explanation of counting rhythms, you’ve given me some info to chew on 😊 I’m totally gonna paint with these colours
much thanks ❤️
Quintuplets are fun.
Kinda reminds me of the breakdown for the song “All I know” by Karnivool
Great breakdown
Another track you could add is Midnight Mischief by Jordan Rakei, which has an extended quintuplet groove starting around the 3:45 mark and otherwise is just a fantastic song
yeah_! i actually wrote in 2015 many studies of independence of that clave and many others against binary triplet quintuplet etc rhythmic permutations all builded inside the quintuplet subdivision of the pulse, actually you can mantain binary or whatever rhythm modulatin softly the metric tuplet by tuplet, increasing or decreasing, i think Tulio Araujo has developed that in an impressive way
Thanks for this beautiful video! Great quintuplets explanation and the Spotify playlist! Inspiring!
I think i see your point about needing to count. But I think that's more important when getting deep into music. For us newbies it might be better to just feel it for a while, at least until we love music too much to escape anymore.
Totally worth following you. I feel like you are a real teacher... greetings from Argentina
Great video! Those books by Mike Mangini seem to be out of print :(
I know. :( Sometimes used copies still pop up. I'm hoping he re-opens the web store at some point. Best I can say for now is go for the Drum Guru app. The counting system in the odd meter lesson is the same that's used for tuplets (just faster).
"a 19-tuplet, and i'm probably never gonna have to do that"
two years later
*threshhold is released*
Thanks for sharing your knowledge Man..🤗
Thanks Shawn. Amazing stuff.
and now quintuplet swing is my own default when i think of any music ever... whyyyy
This is exactly the type of drum channel I was looking for:)
anika nilles is great at the quintuplet swing first time i heard it, i couldn't get enough of it lol
Thanks for the playlist!
Hey Shawn! I wanted to congratulate you for the amazing content that you've been making. I also want to ask you a question (or maybe for some advice): I am a drummer that lately has been interested in the worlds of jazz and fusion drumming, I started to experiment and learn via my love of prog rock (especially the older stuff). Could you offer some tips or recommend certain online courses/TH-cam videos/books that could help me grasp the art of jazz drumming? Thanks in advance!
Jack DeJohnette's Modern Jazz Drummin, the Art of Bop Drumming, Syncopation are an excellent starting point!
@@nosfy Thanks, man!
@@dan-andreinafureanu6046 dude anytime! Love helping people find more musical education :^)
@@nosfy Keep up this great mentality! I've been a metal drummer for 6 years, but now I wanna transition to jazz in order to expand my pallette and stuff.
@@dan-andreinafureanu6046 🙏💜
Love these kinds of videos you do :D
Please do more :3
I was totally going on the wrong path with this until I saw this. Great video!
Thanks, this has been my new goto thing sinds the video of (ofcourse Adam) but I really like the extra depth you put into it! Also like to use the septuplets in my drumcomputer (use a 14 steps).
Joel Rothman has a - new out of print - book on quintuplet based swing coordination exercises ... it is very odd (no pun indeed) and was/is very visionary on his part. The "flow" between bass and snare, underneath two quintuple variations of the jazz ride, is very challenging and will prompt very unique motion patterns ...
Hey, Shawn! Just now I rediscovered some Maloya I lovelovelove, which is Danyèl Waro's album Monmon from 2017. One of the songs on this album might be what got me into quintuplet swing to begin with, it's called Naraini. It's really fun to hear the vocals parts being completely relaxed rhythmically on top of the strict 5-grid. The song Panga also has a hint of 5, but is more like a relaxed 3. I hope you take a listen and discover something you like!
I never expected someone refering to traditional music from my island in an American music-related video. Thank you for that !
Such a great video.
I like your explanations. Thanks for your time and energy on these topics! -Cheers!
Ta ka de me de... is how I count fives. It really rolls out of the mouth easily. I think I got that from Anika Niles, or maybe from Indian counting systems (kona kol?)?
ta din gi na tom
@@cherianbiju ta ke gi na ton
@@QkelleQ no
This is a great tip, thanks!
5:16 “significlantly”
Also, love your vids
5:15
I heard significuntly
Excellent video. I'm also enjoying your work with Adam in your band -- very fresh indeed!
No1 on the list : J a c o b C o l l i e r
Would recommend checking out Tigran's Nairian Odyssey, its initial motif has a 7 tuplet swing, on 1 and 5, really interesting song as well. 4/4 feel with 7 tuplets.
Your videos are very well researched. Great work!
Timeless by Textures is another great tune is quintuplets! That song, in particular, got me hooked on tunes in odd subdivisions.
"what if you put that into quintuplets, then you could make a whole song with it, and wouldn't that be cool"
*cues song he wrote with quintuplets*
I believe Shawn is referring to Kimo Williams Buffalo @3:44
so i actually kinda went through the reverse of learning tuplets, i kinda- used tuplets more often than regular time signatures so recently iv kinda moved away from that kinda additive rhythm, to straight rhythms in odd time signatures. in fact i recently created a track in 11/4 that used a straight rhythm, no 3 + 3 + 2 etc just literally 11 beats, and i gotta say its a lot more interesting than dividing a beat into 11 parts.
so glad strobes is on this list. such an underrated group
Great video and Spotify playlist! T-shirt ordered. 🥁😃
Thanks Peter!
Speaking from personal experience: it's interesting/funny how for musicians (and especially drummers) the reaction to (a) relatively straightforward odd time signatures and (b) quintuplets and other uses of subdivisions is flipped around compared to the reaction of people less exposed to these concepts.
musicians:
- odd time signatures: "yup, that's 9/8 there, cool. Yup, that's 7/8." Even, "yup, they're doing 15/16"
- quintuple shuffle: "woah! I need to understand what's going on here... something feels off, I feel slightly uneasy, but I'm intrigued"
non-musicians:
- odd time signature: "I'm uncomfortable, I don't understand what's going on."
- quintuple shuffle: "cool, I can bob my head to this 4/4 beat."
I think this is consistent with the mere-exposure effect you describe
Also, it will be interesting to see where the trend goes after it's been more normalized
Hey Shaun! This video has been really informative, but I'm floored by your spotify playlist with quintuplet feels! Is there anyway you can either make or ask your community to make a playlist with modulations and/or implied meter?
man you should post more videos. loved everything i watched here (big sungazer fan here btw!)
Awsome knowledge! Thank you!
Very informative and interesting video, already fond of the playlist
There's a world of difference between odd time signatures/tuplet subdivisions and frequently changing time signatures. You can always establish a groove that people will dance to in just about any time signature, but when the pulse is constantly moving around it forces you to either be "in" on it having heard the song before or give up and focus on the texture/arrangement of that section. I think this is why so many prog bands use that as bridges, breakdowns, and the like.
Sugarcane by Nubiyan Twist has a pretty sick Quintuplet swing throughout it and then an awesome quintuplet filled riff towards the end. Please add to playlist to help this amazing group out
Does anyone use letters to count rhythms? Like repeating "a b c d e" for counting out fives or "a b c d e f g" for sevens. The letters (at least before you get to W) have nice and short names of roughly uniform length, so it just struck me that it might work well for counting these larger numbers without having to break them up into smaller chunks at all, and risk sort of biasing yourself toward certain accents over others.
Cale Gibbard, wow that’s a cool idea
i personally prefer to use the indian classical system of ta-ka-di-mi which is created for this purpose
This has increased my knowledge of odd tuplets significlantly. (5:15)
I love how odd bar groupings + odd tuplets are two extremes related to Odd Time Signatures...
Omg I’m the first one to follow the playlist 😂
The arguable places that Zappa uses a quintuplet shuffle (that I'm aware of) are the "oh yeah" in Penguin in Bondage and also in Didja Get Any Onya? The first example is just a short fragment that isn't played over the main beat of the song, and the second example is more like a fast beat in 5 with all the stress on the 1 and 3. Again, it's arguable whether it's a shuffle or just an additive rhythm.
i dig rhythm lessons from the very best
Oh, brother! You deserve so much more attention!!! You're the best rhythm (and music, why not?) teacher I've ever had! But then again... You have to weight Quality versus Popularity, right? Don't go the Adam Neely way, keep teaching useful stuff. (Not a knock on Adam, I still love his content, but it changed a lot)
any chance of you breaking down some of the grooves on the Ethiopian pop tunes near the bottom of the playlist? they're throwing me for a loop...
All we do is copy each other. It is difficult to be original unless we take the same pattern and twist it in a new way. A lot of thought goes into it. Nicely done video, though. Thank you, sir
Great stuff Shawn.....................!
Now I’m interested in the very subtle swing of septuplets. Or even a more extreme version of swing using septuplets, where instead of the 2:1 you have the slightly more swung 5:2. The subtle one mentioned earlier being of the ratio 4:3.
I’am applying swing to an house song, so consider that kick and claps are mostly no affected by swing. In this case swing percentage is applied by my sequencer. But hi hats, shakers and other percussions are getting more groove from the swings. I’m undecided between quintuplets and septuplets swing setting, any suggestion between these two? Considering a deep house song about 119 bpm, thanks
Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be 2^(n-1) instead of 2^n possibilities? For instance, I can only think of 2 ways to group 2. (1+1, or 2)
Yeah. I thought I was pretty advanced re: odd time sigs and rhythmic concepts until I watched some of Crowder's vids. Nope. I'm not advanced. Let's say intermediate at best. Keep up the great work Mr. Crowder, I'm learning a ton from u and love the Sungazer stuff. Can't wait to hear the next bunch of 'Gazer tunes.
love it!!
Just found out that i have been accidentally (and terribly) been playing quintuplets on my ride.
Neat
Woooow man your band is so fucking siiiick!!
Malcom Braffs arrangement of “Berimbau” (sick in between triplet and quintuplet swing) and Esos castillos ridiculos que nos inventamos by Bolsa de naylon en la rama de un arbol (straight 4/4 with each pulse subdivided in quintuplets$
Thanks for the playlist.
Salt - Caligula’s Horse feels like a it is using quintuplets but I’m not quite sure, sixteenth quintuplets notes or whatever they are at that speed is a bit too fast for me to count.
Great video! Well explained and researched but I would have liked to hear you playing a couple of grooves. But a great video still.
I once heard a Bulgarian folk song called “Sedi Donka” which was in 25/16. Counted 3+2+2+3+2+2+2+2+3+2+2.
I guess I could’ve benefited from watching this video before learning the song.
I just listened to it. It's cooooool!
No, it wouldn't help you and could hamper you in that specific endeavor. Sedi Donka is a typical additive rhythm that happens to add up to a multiple of 5, but it doesn't have any meaningful quinary structure. It's 7+7+11, like two bars of chetvorno horo and one bar of kopanitsa.