As a CFII I will never understand why people waste valuable time on the radio. I have had to land in farm fields, taught dozens of students how to conduct emergency landings, and other procedures when there is very little time to spare, none of it ever included talking on the radio. If your engine fails there is nothing the tower or anyone else can do to save you. It's up to you to practice what you should have been taught. The radio is fine when you have lot's of time. I have had emergencies at high altitudes and had the ATC find me an airport wihin a short distance away. But not when seconds count.
The only use in such a situation like this is to let them know you have an emergency and are turning back so they can clear other aircraft out of your way. Also understand that a partial loss of power could mean a total loss at any moment and find a place to get the thing on the ground.
I argued with my CFI about exactly that. My view is that fuck the passenger briefs, fuck the mayday call and fuck trying to restart the engine if you know there is nothing obviously wrong. Job 1 is land the plane. Anything you do other than facilitate the landing of the plane takes away from landing the plane.
I was giving my son a lesson (he's an instructor in the CV-22 now) when we suffered a catastrophic engine failure after takeoff at KFMY runway 5. After I took control and knew I'd make in back down on the available runway I called the tower and let them know we were landing. I figured they had a right to know, as long as I had the approach more or less nailed, but didn't make the call until I got the important stuff done. As for people taking the time, I agree that unnecessary communication is a bad idea but I also understand, to some degree, the human need to talk to someone at stressful moments.
My Bush Pilot CFI in 1995 had 3 partial power fails working on old cargo airplanes in South America. He was also a mechanic. So i learned from the best, i dindt want a BS CFI with not that experience to BS me. He said: loss of thrust On Take off, or partial power lost (we say LOTOT lately) mostly depends of kind of LOTOT. If the engine is vibrating at over say 400 agl ofter take off, but keeping the rpm over say 1,700 then a tunback can be done safer due that is mostly a failed cylinder and the others are keeping some rpm and will mostly sustain level altitute, but wont climb on 3 cylinders of 4. 6 Cylinders engines mostly will climb on 5 unless high density alt. or heavy. NOTE THAT. BUT IF ENGINE IS SURGING ON AND OFF, that is a fuel problem instead and it might quick OFF soon. Lower the nose, change tanks and lean the mixture a bit. Don’t turnback unless a power off kind at over 700 agl is safer because it might quit on the low turn and you wont reach the runway. = Dont turnback or turnaround the airport if engine is surging on and off under the power off turnback marker YOU HAVE DONE before that take off. We had a marker on altimeter.
@@CFITOMAHAWK A turnback marker? If you are a CFI, as your screen name would seem to indicate, how in the world do you justify throwing out specific numbers for some unknown aircraft, and and advising people to govern themselves based on that information?
Hello folks, I have flown off this same runway many times and have some friends do the same thing. Here's the problem he had. Going straight out and find ing a place to land is not going to happen! There is nothing but houses and streets full of car's. What he did by trying to make that terrible turn ended up saving innocent lives. I'm not sure how high he was and his relation to the runway when he lost power. When my friends and I use that runway we know there's nothing in front of us to conduct a safe landing. I and the others do try to get as must altitude as possible in case we need to comeback. It's very sad what happened but I proud of him not trying to land on the houses! RIP young man, Thank you for this great video,,,,,
When I was a student, I was taught, best glide angle immediately and try for straight ahead. No sharp turns. When you have found a spot and if you are too high then very gently gradual turns to bleed off altitude. FLY, FLY AND FLY THE AIRCRAFT. When and if you have time give a Pan or Mayday. Regards from South Africa
That may be what led to the fatalities, unfortunately. I don't have any information other than what's in the video (and a 20 year old private pilot cert), but the desire to "stretch" the glide when you're "almost there" can easily lead to a stall/spin at low altitude. Physics is physics, and if you don't have the potential energy, you can't turn it into kinetic energy. And "best glide" speed is best glide speed... you won't glide further by pulling back on the stick. If they weren't "almost there" they might not have been tempted by this and may have landed horizontally in a field. Unfortunate situation. RIP.
Yeah...it was. It quit on take-off........you don't make turns if you do not have the altitude to handle these turns, with no power. It is why these emergencies are practiced, or least, evaluated. They do happen and it does not mean you have to crash.
The power loss is a secondary issue, at best. The real issue is yet again a pilot trying the impossible turn instead of pushing the nose down, straight and put it on the ground. One should always have a preflight plan for this event.
I instructed for years before retiring I will throw my two cents in here. Number 1. If you are low and slow NEVER try to turn back to the airport pick some spot in front of the aircraft make the decision immediately and land as best you can. If you are one of those folk who thinks you have to turn back pay attention. If you decide to make that turn you better be damn sure you won’t have to apply any back pressure at all in that turn to maintain altitude. Back pressure loads your wing up and you were taught stall speed increases with bank angle. Already being slow even a very small bank angle and any load on the wing will induce the stall and spin you to the ground. When you are already low and slow this will kill you. If you don’t have altitude to drop the nose and completely unload the aircraft you ain’t a gonna make it.
Great explanation, George. A number of years ago I was working in a law enforcement aviation. Among the aircraft in our hanger were a pair if Maules, an M5 and an M7. One day the other CFI and I decided to test the assumption that the turn was impossible. After a number of turns, at altitude, we determined that, depending on the wind, it was possible, in the M5, at Vy with at least 800 feet of altitude we tested the theory on one departure and failed (simulated) the engine at 1000', and landed on the departure runway. Having done that, I would still not recommend the maneuver.
My Bush Pilot CFI in 1995 had 3 partial power fails working on old cargo airplanes in South America. He was also a mechanic. So i learned from the best, i dindt want a BS CFI with not that experience to BS me. He said: loss of thrust On Take off, or partial power lost (we say LOTOT lately) mostly depends of kind of LOTOT. If the engine is vibrating at over say 400 agl ofter take off, but keeping the rpm over say 1,700 then a tunback can be done safer due that is mostly a failed cylinder and the others are keeping some rpm and will mostly sustain level altitute, but wont climb on 3 cylinders of 4. 6 Cylinders engines mostly will climb on 5 unless high density alt. or heavy. NOTE THAT. BUT IF ENGINE IS SURGING ON AND OFF, that is a fuel problem instead and it might quick OFF soon. Lower the nose, change tanks and lean the mixture a bit. Don’t turnback unless a power off kind at over 700 agl is safer because it might quit on the low turn and you wont reach the runway. = Dont turnback or turnaround the airport if engine is surging on and off under the power off turnback marker YOU HAVE DONE before that take off. We had a marker on altimeter.
That is the first "emergency procedure" I remember my CFI telling me. Forget about turning around...you're going to stall. Concentrate on your other options and FLY THE PLANE!
All good points, George. Eleven of my thirteen engine failures Cobra in Vietnam, crop dusting in piston airplanes, and in small Cessnas on pipelines started at 200' AGL or lower. Altitude (lots of) is time. Airspeed, down low, is life. My default takeoff in overloaded Cobra, Ag, or Cessna was the basic low ground effect takeoff. Like in the crop field, I was at full power in low ground effect until obstructions required pitch up to just over the obstruction. That cruise climb maneuvering airspeed, that zoom reserve airspeed, allowed me to maneuver to the obvious workable landing zone in the very near hemisphere. Yes, all turns were 1 g turns because I allowed the nose to go down as designed (dynamic neutral stability) while banking as much as necessary to make that LZ in the six seconds I had available. But most are low and slow (Vy is way too slow) as you say and most would freak out at the 40 degree nose pitch down in a sixty degree or greater bank angle at 200.' Yes, quite doable as I have done it many times. But you are correct to say they should not turn back. I did once but only the the adjoining crop field because my student had already started a turn that way when pitching to just over the obstruction. And yes, I had enough zoom reserve airspeed (airspeed is altitude and altitude, even 200' is airspeed) to zoom up a bit more the clear the trees going back into the adjoining field at an angle. When it quits...look. Where you can certainly get to is obvious, even if it is exactly between a couple of houses. Fly (airspeed) all the way to there. You probably have altitude, say 400 or so. Trade that altitude for airspeed in order to maneuver to that workable (ok not great) landing zone.
You can do what ever you like just to pull into the stall stick position. Aircraft stall at a fixed angle of attack. Which directly correlates with the stick / yoke position.
It's called the impossible turn for a reason. Don't think you can make it back easily. Fly straight ahead and pick the best spot to come down while maintaining airspeed and level flight. Don't get suckered into trying to make it back to the airport after a power loss. You will only end up being the first one at the scene of the accident.
I only wish single engine pilots would study these types of incidents, really think about the situation and recommended solutions, and fix them in their minds before they switch the mags. One too many don´t.
My instructor was a fighter pilot in Vietnam and fighter pilot instructor and many things he beat into my thick head. He called turning back to the airport with a dead engine is know as the DEAD MANS TRUN. Pick your best path forward and fly it to the ground.
Not smart to take the left turn.....better stay straight and land anywhere you can, without making any turns...Happened to a guy I knew who had a twin, whose engines both quit on take off. He went straight down, ended up near a woman's house, but no one was hurt. The plane was totaled..The guy never flew again. He was a surgeon and their flying abilities were never stellar. This guy did the right thing. The mechanics had put detergent oil in his crankcase. That killed the engines. He knew what to do and that way, not trying to get back to the airport !
You have to put detergent oil after a say first 20 hours of new engine. If both failed, i bet it was water in fuel he didnt drain it well. No power heavies like twins cant do turnbacks..
Good advice, but honestly looking at the map from here I don't see a whole lot of landing opportunities straight ahead for a good distance. There was a large highway running roughly perpendicular to their course that may have been an option depending on how heavily trafficked it was at the time. Other than that though it was all subdivisions ahead of them for a few miles.
There’s nothing but neighborhoods north of the airport, I work at one of the hangars on this field. The field he landed at was the best option given the circumstances. He barely caught the rock pile, if he would have been a foot higher he would have at least had a chance… so sad, left a young daughter. Wife died on scene, husband (pilot) died in hospital
Sad. Seeing how he completed the turn, he just didn’t have the altitude to make it back, and he probably would have lived if he committed to the field instead of still trying to make the runway. From that crash site picture, that was probably a pretty bad stall with a nose low impact.
if you are above pattern altitude then you can make a shallow turn to the airport, first thing is get to that best air glide speed. under pattern altitude straight ahead best landing spot.
Aviate-Navigate-Communicate........there were several crash landing fields in his SOP eng fail shallow turns only L-R path ahead. Side slipped in if hot&high. Break the plane, live yourself. RIP.
I am in and out of Wiley Post frequently. Ironically if they had had another 100-200' of altitude he could have made it to the mowed grassy area just north of the approach end of 17L and 17R. Just north of the airport is a large irregular shaped grass field he could have put it down there and probably been successful.
SEE THIS POST FROM BELOW--- NOT MINE... Hello folks, I have flown off this same runway many times and have some friends do the same thing. Here's the problem he had. Going straight out and find ing a place to land is not going to happen! There is nothing but houses and streets full of car's. What he did by trying to make that terrible turn ended up saving innocent lives. I'm not sure how high he was and his relation to the runway when he lost power. When my friends and I use that runway we know there's nothing in front of us to conduct a safe landing. I and the others do try to get as must altitude as possible in case we need to comeback. It's very sad what happened but I proud of him not trying to land on the houses! RIP young man, Thank you for this great video,,,,,
I believe the tower is saying "...Atlantic tug..." From the Atlantic FBO on the field. Nevertheless, this is always so hard to take. I suppose fear and terror can take you wherever it wants to take you. It took this pilot into a stall and out-of-control crash. I've been told and have read at least a thousand times: "Once you lose your cool it's all over but for the pallbearers... Dang! I hate to see another one.😢
Also remember folks, if an engine isn't making proper power on take-off (you did check the RPMs and manifold pressure before lifting the wheels off the ground, right?) , it's not going to suddenly get better in the climb.
There looked like a couple of landing spots straight ahead if the pilot hadn't have made his turn. Once again, the "impossible turn" cost a plane and its pilot.
@@scotabot7826 I believe the turn was a factor as the altitude lost in the maneuver may have been better spent gliding straight ahead to locate a suitable landing area. I think I understand what you mean but at what point would any such turn not be a factor?
@@Tom-zs6bb FYI - I just read a comment from a pilot that frequents that airport who stated that there is nothing in the direction he was heading but neighborhood’s and city streets for several miles, a probably saved lives on the ground! I looked at google earth and after 4 miles there was one place he could have landed after crossing an 8 lane turnpike! Tragic!
@@Tom-zs6bb SEE THIS POST from a local pilot--- NOT MINE. Hello folks, I have flown off this same runway many times and have some friends do the same thing. Here's the problem he had. Going straight out and find ing a place to land is not going to happen! There is nothing but houses and streets full of car's. What he did by trying to make that terrible turn ended up saving innocent lives. I'm not sure how high he was and his relation to the runway when he lost power. When my friends and I use that runway we know there's nothing in front of us to conduct a safe landing. I and the others do try to get as must altitude as possible in case we need to comeback. It's very sad what happened but I proud of him not trying to land on the houses! RIP young man, Thank you for this great video,,,,, @billythekid3234 @billythekid3234 3 weeks ago
You can always glide a single engine. The problem is, where are you going to land it ? It is why it is unsafe to fly single engines at night. You cannot see the ground, if you have to take it down. Planes can fly without engines, until they have to get down.....pilots control that, flying the right attitude.....It goes back to the trust greater than the drag...the old aeronautical rules that keep these birds, up in the air.
I believe many try this impossible turn back out of raw instinct. The same instinct many people have when they stall a perfectly good airplane in imc and they pull back on the yoke . It must be hard not to overcome this instinct.
From the airport it was right at 4 1/2 miles of neighborhood’s and city streets then a six lane turnpike around OKC he would of had to clear had he gone straight north. After he turned left, had he stayed a westerly direction there was a pasture about 1 1/2 miles. He obviously thought he could get back to a large field in front of the north end of the runway?
It is possible to do but depends on the altitude. I did demos with my students to demonstrate when to make that 180 degree turn if high enough. Otherwise just land straight ahead and hope for the best. I flew out of PWA about 5 times when I was a PP off that runway. Good times, decades ago. I feel awful for the families, btw.
Never try the impossible turn unless you're flying a canard airplane, then it's not impossible because canard airplanes don't stall. They just don't. I pulled it off from 200' after a prop failure on takeoff. The Long EZ I did it in is in the little blue pic on the left.
Looks like he had partial power and he was in a climb when it occurred. So I am guessing 70 knots IAS. Lower the nose and gain as much AS as you can with what power you have left. At low alt (I am guessing he was maybe 1000 AGL) it's too risky trying the 180. If you lose all power during your turn then you have no choice. Level the wings and pitch for best glide speed and scan for a suitable landing spot. FORGET TURNING BACK TO THE AIRPORT! If you are low and slow you CANNOT make any turns. You are in a LOW ENERGY STATE! Fly the A/C! Try to turn and you bleed airspeed so you have a choice: lower the nose to maintain glide speed (lose altitude to maintain energy) or maintain alt and bleed airspeed and risk a stall/spin. Remember, a stall with rudder input will induce a spin! DON'T DO IT! If you have altitude then you can maybe execute a 180 but it's risky. A 172 has a 9-1 glide ratio: 9 miles for every 1 mile AGL; So at 1500 feet AGL, about 2 miles! I don't know the numbers for the Beechcraft but I'm guessing about the same or slightly worse (Cessnas are famous for their glide ratios)! I am guessing he was at T/O climb power perhaps 1000 AGL or less when he lost power (800-900 fpm climb)! All you can do is pitch for glide and scan in front of the A/C for a landing spot. This should have been briefed BEFORE take off so you have a GAME PLAN! DO NOT TRY THE IMPOSSIBLE TURN! So sad and he could have done the RIGHT ACTION and survived. WHO CARES ABOUT THE PLANE!
Yep. You can tell there wasn'the a plan for this exact scenario. He may have even had a plan for engine out....but man _reduction_ of thrust is insidious. It lulls alot of people into sketchy turn backs, despite fields all around
Made the turnback BUT AFTER RADIO. He LOST PRECIOUS SECONDS CALLING BEFORE TURNING. AND BLAH BLAH talking a lot on radio i bet he didnt troubleshoot the engine weLl. Then After the turnback, He turned to the right instead of going to the runway overrun he could reach... AND STALLED IT GOING TO that field. LACK OF LOTOT PRACTICE.
The airport was the best option, but he should have started his turn back and declared emergency at the first sign of a bad engine. He flew upwind for another 15 seconds before turning, putting 30 seconds additional to get back to the runway. Regarding landing straight ahead - there really wasn't a good option ahead in OK city. If he turned as PIC (aviate/navigate), then declared (communicate), we'd never have heard of this incident. Impossible turn statistics have quite a selection bias - we hear of the bad ones, and never the ones that landed without incident. As a pilot, I would say practice these turns - get the nose down and do a steep turn - standard rate won't get you back - the other thing is that you'll have a lot more drag with a stopped prop vs. idle requiring more nose down than you can practice for. This really isn't the prototypical impossible turn as he was in the air for 2 minutes after the problems started. I think there's quite a few pilots out there that would have made the turn back and an incident free landing that we'd never hear about.
Negative. looks like they made the turn fine but fell short. Had they kept straight, they likely would have endangered more people and would have hit just has hard. He may have tried to fight decent with the yoke, resulting in stall. In that case he may have been able to glide down, but who knows.
He mighta dropped a wing, shooda flow straight ??? Dick McSpaddén had an Excellenté videô on how to be Handled such a situations called "The Impossible Túrn"
This guy obviously put more effort into calling "Mom and Pop for help" instead of leaning mixture a bit, and some carburetor heat. That solves most LOTOT ENGINE PROBLEMS. I know that since 1996 Bush Pilot Training.
Sorry, I have no sympathy for this kind of accident. It's drilled into you from the start to look for a landing site within the 30 deg cone off your nose after takeoff engine failure. I get they made it a little furter and it wasn't quite the impossible turn but any turn is going to cost you altitude and airspeed which costs you time and options..
He would have to have glided approximately four miles straight ahead north or landed on houses or city streets after clearing a major turnpike that runs around OKC. He did bank left (west) and there is an open area about 1 1/2 miles perhaps he could have glided to, but he obviously thought he could make the runway! Have no idea his altitude.
Would you have sympathy knowing a husband and wife died in this crash and left behind a 10 year old daughter? I don't usually GAF about A-holes on the internet but dang, they are real people, ya know? We all make mistakes.
As a pilot with over 10000 hours it makes no sense to ever put your life in danger to buzz around with one engine. Who does that? It is so stupid! I trained in a glider then motor glider then a cirrus back in 2006. All had parachutes. If your flight school doesn’t offer brs parachutes don’t give them your money.
Easy bullshit to spew when you're sitting comfortable in an A320 with dispatch doing your flight planning, MX taking care of your plane and another competent pilot next to you. After Colgan the rest of us have to sit 1,500 hours in a single engine plane built before the 90's doing circuits and stalls just to get a sniff of safe 135 or 121 flying, usually at $130 an hour for the first 250 hours, not counting the instructor, taxes, or DPE fees. If your suggestion is for every low time pilot to log 1,500 hours in a $200 / hour Cirrus or a $450 / hour twin, I'll send you my ZELLE so you can wire some of that nice $400 / hour you're making sitting comfortable at Delta. I know a lot of pilots who will appreciate your financial contributions...
@@16vr68 if your low IQ brain is worth only one engine then fly a plane with one engine. I don’t even fly now or driver. I buy industrial real estate so I have a pilot and a driver. Flying to me wasn’t fun, ever but a necessity. I’d get a plane with a brs as an option. Pipistrel, cirrus, some vans, some Cessnas….to name a few.
@@scotabot7826 it’s your age. Want me to list all the pilots that have died since 2000 that could have lived with a brs? Cirrus can recover from a spin…..ask Europe! Ask Gork to list all pilots in single engine Wh have died..it’ll spit out names and images! I never fly on a single…it is considered an emergency in my plane!
As a CFII I will never understand why people waste valuable time on the radio. I have had to land in farm fields, taught dozens of students how to conduct emergency landings, and other procedures when there is very little time to spare, none of it ever included talking on the radio. If your engine fails there is nothing the tower or anyone else can do to save you. It's up to you to practice what you should have been taught. The radio is fine when you have lot's of time. I have had emergencies at high altitudes and had the ATC find me an airport wihin a short distance away. But not when seconds count.
The only use in such a situation like this is to let them know you have an emergency and are turning back so they can clear other aircraft out of your way. Also understand that a partial loss of power could mean a total loss at any moment and find a place to get the thing on the ground.
I argued with my CFI about exactly that. My view is that fuck the passenger briefs, fuck the mayday call and fuck trying to restart the engine if you know there is nothing obviously wrong. Job 1 is land the plane. Anything you do other than facilitate the landing of the plane takes away from landing the plane.
I was giving my son a lesson (he's an instructor in the CV-22 now) when we suffered a catastrophic engine failure after takeoff at KFMY runway 5. After I took control and knew I'd make in back down on the available runway I called the tower and let them know we were landing. I figured they had a right to know, as long as I had the approach more or less nailed, but didn't make the call until I got the important stuff done. As for people taking the time, I agree that unnecessary communication is a bad idea but I also understand, to some degree, the human need to talk to someone at stressful moments.
My Bush Pilot CFI in 1995 had 3 partial power fails working on old cargo airplanes in South America. He was also a mechanic. So i learned from the best, i dindt want a BS CFI with not that experience to BS me. He said: loss of thrust On Take off, or partial power lost (we say LOTOT lately) mostly depends of kind of LOTOT. If the engine is vibrating at over say 400 agl ofter take off, but keeping the rpm over say 1,700 then a tunback can be done safer due that is mostly a failed cylinder and the others are keeping some rpm and will mostly sustain level altitute, but wont climb on 3 cylinders of 4. 6 Cylinders engines mostly will climb on 5 unless high density alt. or heavy. NOTE THAT.
BUT IF ENGINE IS SURGING ON AND OFF, that is a fuel problem instead and it might quick OFF soon. Lower the nose, change tanks and lean the mixture a bit. Don’t turnback unless a power off kind at over 700 agl is safer because it might quit on the low turn and you wont reach the runway.
= Dont turnback or turnaround the airport if engine is surging on and off under the power off turnback marker YOU HAVE DONE before that take off. We had a marker on altimeter.
@@CFITOMAHAWK A turnback marker? If you are a CFI, as your screen name would seem to indicate, how in the world do you justify throwing out specific numbers for some unknown aircraft, and and advising people to govern themselves based on that information?
Hello folks, I have flown off this same runway many times and have some friends do the same thing. Here's the problem he had. Going straight out and find ing a place to land is not going to happen! There is nothing but houses and streets full of car's. What he did by trying to make that terrible turn ended up saving innocent lives. I'm not sure how high he was and his relation to the runway when he lost power. When my friends and I use that runway we know there's nothing in front of us to conduct a safe landing. I and the others do try to get as must altitude as possible in case we need to comeback. It's very sad what happened but I proud of him not trying to land on the houses! RIP young man, Thank you for this great video,,,,,
N county line and w britton seems to have a lot of space
There are several large fields out there in front of him.
@@charron1 How wide and long?
@@MikeyJr. EASY TO SEE THEM BUT FROM MUCH HIGHER ALTITUDE HE HAD. M
When I was a student, I was taught, best glide angle immediately and try for straight ahead. No sharp turns. When you have found a spot and if you are too high then very gently gradual turns to bleed off altitude. FLY, FLY AND FLY THE AIRCRAFT. When and if you have time give a Pan or Mayday.
Regards from South Africa
Damn it. From the graphics it looks like he was almost there. RIP.
That may be what led to the fatalities, unfortunately. I don't have any information other than what's in the video (and a 20 year old private pilot cert), but the desire to "stretch" the glide when you're "almost there" can easily lead to a stall/spin at low altitude. Physics is physics, and if you don't have the potential energy, you can't turn it into kinetic energy. And "best glide" speed is best glide speed... you won't glide further by pulling back on the stick. If they weren't "almost there" they might not have been tempted by this and may have landed horizontally in a field. Unfortunate situation. RIP.
That's the allure of the "impossible turn"... it seems possible...until physics and lack of energy catch up with you.
This is heartbreaking, to hear the panic in someone's final words. May they rest in peace. I hope a cause of the power loss will be found quickly.
Yeah...it was. It quit on take-off........you don't make turns if you do not have the altitude to handle these turns, with no power. It is why these emergencies are practiced, or least, evaluated. They do happen and it does not mean you have to crash.
@@linanicolia1363Did you even watch? He completed the turn successfully, simply didn’t make it back to the runway
@@yamkaw346you lose airspeed making that turn. Hence why most spin it in. It is the “Impossible turn” for a reason.
The power loss is a secondary issue, at best. The real issue is yet again a pilot trying the impossible turn instead of pushing the nose down, straight and put it on the ground. One should always have a preflight plan for this event.
@@TheBeingReal again the turn is not what got him… he successfully completed the impossible turn, was just too far from the airport.
I instructed for years before retiring I will throw my two cents in here. Number 1. If you are low and slow NEVER try to turn back to the airport pick some spot in front of the aircraft make the decision immediately and land as best you can. If you are one of those folk who thinks you have to turn back pay attention. If you decide to make that turn you better be damn sure you won’t have to apply any back pressure at all in that turn to maintain altitude. Back pressure loads your wing up and you were taught stall speed increases with bank angle. Already being slow even a very small bank angle and any load on the wing will induce the stall and spin you to the ground. When you are already low and slow this will kill you. If you don’t have altitude to drop the nose and completely unload the aircraft you ain’t a gonna make it.
Great explanation, George. A number of years ago I was working in a law enforcement aviation. Among the aircraft in our hanger were a pair if Maules, an M5 and an M7. One day the other CFI and I decided to test the assumption that the turn was impossible. After a number of turns, at altitude, we determined that, depending on the wind, it was possible, in the M5, at Vy with at least 800 feet of altitude we tested the theory on one departure and failed (simulated) the engine at 1000', and landed on the departure runway. Having done that, I would still not recommend the maneuver.
My Bush Pilot CFI in 1995 had 3 partial power fails working on old cargo airplanes in South America. He was also a mechanic. So i learned from the best, i dindt want a BS CFI with not that experience to BS me. He said: loss of thrust On Take off, or partial power lost (we say LOTOT lately) mostly depends of kind of LOTOT. If the engine is vibrating at over say 400 agl ofter take off, but keeping the rpm over say 1,700 then a tunback can be done safer due that is mostly a failed cylinder and the others are keeping some rpm and will mostly sustain level altitute, but wont climb on 3 cylinders of 4. 6 Cylinders engines mostly will climb on 5 unless high density alt. or heavy. NOTE THAT.
BUT IF ENGINE IS SURGING ON AND OFF, that is a fuel problem instead and it might quick OFF soon. Lower the nose, change tanks and lean the mixture a bit. Don’t turnback unless a power off kind at over 700 agl is safer because it might quit on the low turn and you wont reach the runway.
= Dont turnback or turnaround the airport if engine is surging on and off under the power off turnback marker YOU HAVE DONE before that take off. We had a marker on altimeter.
That is the first "emergency procedure" I remember my CFI telling me. Forget about turning around...you're going to stall. Concentrate on your other options and FLY THE PLANE!
All good points, George. Eleven of my thirteen engine failures Cobra in Vietnam, crop dusting in piston airplanes, and in small Cessnas on pipelines started at 200' AGL or lower. Altitude (lots of) is time. Airspeed, down low, is life. My default takeoff in overloaded Cobra, Ag, or Cessna was the basic low ground effect takeoff. Like in the crop field, I was at full power in low ground effect until obstructions required pitch up to just over the obstruction. That cruise climb maneuvering airspeed, that zoom reserve airspeed, allowed me to maneuver to the obvious workable landing zone in the very near hemisphere. Yes, all turns were 1 g turns because I allowed the nose to go down as designed (dynamic neutral stability) while banking as much as necessary to make that LZ in the six seconds I had available. But most are low and slow (Vy is way too slow) as you say and most would freak out at the 40 degree nose pitch down in a sixty degree or greater bank angle at 200.' Yes, quite doable as I have done it many times. But you are correct to say they should not turn back. I did once but only the the adjoining crop field because my student had already started a turn that way when pitching to just over the obstruction. And yes, I had enough zoom reserve airspeed (airspeed is altitude and altitude, even 200' is airspeed) to zoom up a bit more the clear the trees going back into the adjoining field at an angle. When it quits...look. Where you can certainly get to is obvious, even if it is exactly between a couple of houses. Fly (airspeed) all the way to there. You probably have altitude, say 400 or so. Trade that altitude for airspeed in order to maneuver to that workable (ok not great) landing zone.
You can do what ever you like just to pull into the stall stick position. Aircraft stall at a fixed angle of attack. Which directly correlates with the stick / yoke position.
Just FYI for those wondering - it’s “Atlantic Tug” (not “landing tug”) from Atlantic Aviation FBO.
Thanks for your correction 🙏
It's called the impossible turn for a reason. Don't think you can make it back easily. Fly straight ahead and pick the best spot to come down while maintaining airspeed and level flight. Don't get suckered into trying to make it back to the airport after a power loss. You will only end up being the first one at the scene of the accident.
Word.
Lol. It is a very possible turn if you know how to fly. Go read Barry Schiff. for decades he spoke about the BS of the impossible turn
I’ve tried it a few times. Always came up short. Always best to find a big open road or field.
Look at that map Not a lot of open anything around there.
I only wish single engine pilots would study these types of incidents, really think about the situation and recommended solutions, and fix them in their minds before they switch the mags. One too many don´t.
"Situational awareness" and "Risk assessment/management."
My instructor was a fighter pilot in Vietnam and fighter pilot instructor and many things he beat into my thick head. He called turning back to the airport with a dead engine is know as the DEAD MANS TRUN. Pick your best path forward and fly it to the ground.
Not smart to take the left turn.....better stay straight and land anywhere you can, without making any turns...Happened to a guy I knew who had a twin, whose engines both quit on take off. He went straight down, ended up near a woman's house, but no one was hurt. The plane was totaled..The guy never flew again. He was a surgeon and their flying abilities were never stellar. This guy did the right thing. The mechanics had put detergent oil in his crankcase. That killed the engines. He knew what to do and that way, not trying to get back to the airport !
You have to put detergent oil after a say first 20 hours of new engine. If both failed, i bet it was water in fuel he didnt drain it well. No power heavies like twins cant do turnbacks..
Good advice, but honestly looking at the map from here I don't see a whole lot of landing opportunities straight ahead for a good distance. There was a large highway running roughly perpendicular to their course that may have been an option depending on how heavily trafficked it was at the time. Other than that though it was all subdivisions ahead of them for a few miles.
There’s nothing but neighborhoods north of the airport, I work at one of the hangars on this field. The field he landed at was the best option given the circumstances. He barely caught the rock pile, if he would have been a foot higher he would have at least had a chance… so sad, left a young daughter. Wife died on scene, husband (pilot) died in hospital
Thanks again for the content
You're welcome 🙏
The microphone doesn’t have wings or a backup engine.
Mom callers. You have to troubleshoot instead of panic and calling for help like that..
Sad. Seeing how he completed the turn, he just didn’t have the altitude to make it back, and he probably would have lived if he committed to the field instead of still trying to make the runway. From that crash site picture, that was probably a pretty bad stall with a nose low impact.
if you are above pattern altitude then you can make a shallow turn to the airport, first thing is get to that best air glide speed. under pattern altitude straight ahead best landing spot.
Absolutely tragic.
Aviate-Navigate-Communicate........there were several crash landing fields in his SOP eng fail shallow turns only L-R path ahead. Side slipped in if hot&high. Break the plane, live yourself. RIP.
I am in and out of Wiley Post frequently. Ironically if they had had another 100-200' of altitude he could have made it to the mowed grassy area just north of the approach end of 17L and 17R. Just north of the airport is a large irregular shaped grass field he could have put it down there and probably been successful.
I almost won the lotto when 22 years old. But failed by 2 numbers.
SEE THIS POST FROM BELOW--- NOT MINE...
Hello folks, I have flown off this same runway many times and have some friends do the same thing. Here's the problem he had. Going straight out and find ing a place to land is not going to happen! There is nothing but houses and streets full of car's. What he did by trying to make that terrible turn ended up saving innocent lives. I'm not sure how high he was and his relation to the runway when he lost power. When my friends and I use that runway we know there's nothing in front of us to conduct a safe landing. I and the others do try to get as must altitude as possible in case we need to comeback. It's very sad what happened but I proud of him not trying to land on the houses! RIP young man, Thank you for this great video,,,,,
Rest in peace
May God comfort the families.
If God existed this wouldn't happen
lol. God is gonna do wut?
@@lewiskelly14 So you somehow know the mind of a God that doesn't exist? How does that work?
@SteviPantyhose-mt5lm pray that you may know
God, not God.
but he had so much precious time and kept flying further and further away from the airport....
Rest in peace
Poor Comptroller, he was Definitely All Shook Up
It's a sad irony that the accident happened at an airport named in honor of Wiley Post.
I believe the tower is saying "...Atlantic tug..." From the Atlantic FBO on the field. Nevertheless, this is always so hard to take. I suppose fear and terror can take you wherever it wants to take you. It took this pilot into a stall and out-of-control crash. I've been told and have read at least a thousand times: "Once you lose your cool it's all over but for the pallbearers... Dang! I hate to see another one.😢
Fly first and foremost, pay attention to speed and altitude. Forget the radio.
Also remember folks, if an engine isn't making proper power on take-off (you did check the RPMs and manifold pressure before lifting the wheels off the ground, right?) , it's not going to suddenly get better in the climb.
There looked like a couple of landing spots straight ahead if the pilot hadn't have made his turn. Once again, the "impossible turn" cost a plane and its pilot.
Was not a impossible turn crash!!
he lost altitude by making that turn.@@scotabot7826
@@scotabot7826 I believe the turn was a factor as the altitude lost in the maneuver may have been better spent gliding straight ahead to locate a suitable landing area. I think I understand what you mean but at what point would any such turn not be a factor?
@@Tom-zs6bb FYI - I just read a comment from a pilot that frequents that airport who stated that there is nothing in the direction he was heading but neighborhood’s and city streets for several miles, a probably saved lives on the ground! I looked at google earth and after 4 miles there was one place he could have landed after crossing an 8 lane turnpike! Tragic!
@@Tom-zs6bb SEE THIS POST from a local pilot--- NOT MINE.
Hello folks, I have flown off this same runway many times and have some friends do the same thing. Here's the problem he had. Going straight out and find ing a place to land is not going to happen! There is nothing but houses and streets full of car's. What he did by trying to make that terrible turn ended up saving innocent lives. I'm not sure how high he was and his relation to the runway when he lost power. When my friends and I use that runway we know there's nothing in front of us to conduct a safe landing. I and the others do try to get as must altitude as possible in case we need to comeback. It's very sad what happened but I proud of him not trying to land on the houses! RIP young man, Thank you for this great video,,,,,
@billythekid3234
@billythekid3234
3 weeks ago
Thanks for uploading. May God comfort all involved.👼🏼🙏🏼👼🏽
Boy these kinds of accidents make me leery of ever getting in a single engine craft.
You're welcome 🙏 Here is the adsbexchange link: globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a93ca8&lat=35.558&lon=-97.650&zoom=15.8&showTrace=2023-12-10&trackLabels/
@@the_flight_records Thank you - great site! 😎👍🏼
You can always glide a single engine. The problem is, where are you going to land it ? It is why it is unsafe to fly single engines at night. You cannot see the ground, if you have to take it down. Planes can fly without engines, until they have to get down.....pilots control that, flying the right attitude.....It goes back to the trust greater than the drag...the old aeronautical rules that keep these birds, up in the air.
How straight and flat is the river? Still would have been bad as the wheels hit the water I guess.
The impossible turn...
NOT a impossible turn crash!!
Why don’t more pilots know that they shouldn’t do this turn?
I believe many try this impossible turn back out of raw instinct. The same instinct many people have when they stall a perfectly good airplane in imc and they pull back on the yoke . It must be hard not to overcome this instinct.
One reason could be that there are lots of videos on youtube showing that the impossible turn is "perfectly possible."
@@leifvejby8023 Just like a half court free throw is perfectly possible.
From the airport it was right at 4 1/2 miles of neighborhood’s and city streets then a six lane turnpike around OKC he would of had to clear had he gone straight north. After he turned left, had he stayed a westerly direction there was a pasture about 1 1/2 miles. He obviously thought he could get back to a large field in front of the north end of the runway?
It is possible to do but depends on the altitude. I did demos with my students to demonstrate when to make that 180 degree turn if high enough. Otherwise just land straight ahead and hope for the best. I flew out of PWA about 5 times when I was a PP off that runway. Good times, decades ago. I feel awful for the families, btw.
Never try the impossible turn unless you're flying a canard airplane, then it's not impossible because canard airplanes don't stall. They just don't. I pulled it off from 200' after a prop failure on takeoff. The Long EZ I did it in is in the little blue pic on the left.
How about “You are cleared to land on ANY runway”……an emergency aircraft.
DECLARE AN EMERGENCY….LAND WHERE YOU NEED TO OR CAN.
agree. never understood this.
Looks like he had partial power and he was in a climb when it occurred. So I am guessing 70 knots IAS. Lower the nose and gain as much AS as you can with what power you have left. At low alt (I am guessing he was maybe 1000 AGL) it's too risky trying the 180. If you lose all power during your turn then you have no choice. Level the wings and pitch for best glide speed and scan for a suitable landing spot. FORGET TURNING BACK TO THE AIRPORT! If you are low and slow you CANNOT make any turns. You are in a LOW ENERGY STATE! Fly the A/C! Try to turn and you bleed airspeed so you have a choice: lower the nose to maintain glide speed (lose altitude to maintain energy) or maintain alt and bleed airspeed and risk a stall/spin. Remember, a stall with rudder input will induce a spin! DON'T DO IT! If you have altitude then you can maybe execute a 180 but it's risky. A 172 has a 9-1 glide ratio: 9 miles for every 1 mile AGL; So at 1500 feet AGL, about 2 miles! I don't know the numbers for the Beechcraft but I'm guessing about the same or slightly worse (Cessnas are famous for their glide ratios)! I am guessing he was at T/O climb power perhaps 1000 AGL or less when he lost power (800-900 fpm climb)! All you can do is pitch for glide and scan in front of the A/C for a landing spot. This should have been briefed BEFORE take off so you have a GAME PLAN! DO NOT TRY THE IMPOSSIBLE TURN! So sad and he could have done the RIGHT ACTION and survived. WHO CARES ABOUT THE PLANE!
Yep. You can tell there wasn'the a plan for this exact scenario.
He may have even had a plan for engine out....but man _reduction_ of thrust is insidious. It lulls alot of people into sketchy turn backs, despite fields all around
Wow they were so close! Wtf
Made the turnback BUT AFTER RADIO. He LOST PRECIOUS SECONDS CALLING BEFORE TURNING. AND BLAH BLAH talking a lot on radio i bet he didnt troubleshoot the engine weLl. Then After the turnback, He turned to the right instead of going to the runway overrun he could reach... AND STALLED IT GOING TO that field. LACK OF LOTOT PRACTICE.
Tough call. I dont see anything except homes all around him. Almost no choice to attempt the turn around. If not youre going in a house.
The airport was the best option, but he should have started his turn back and declared emergency at the first sign of a bad engine. He flew upwind for another 15 seconds before turning, putting 30 seconds additional to get back to the runway. Regarding landing straight ahead - there really wasn't a good option ahead in OK city. If he turned as PIC (aviate/navigate), then declared (communicate), we'd never have heard of this incident. Impossible turn statistics have quite a selection bias - we hear of the bad ones, and never the ones that landed without incident. As a pilot, I would say practice these turns - get the nose down and do a steep turn - standard rate won't get you back - the other thing is that you'll have a lot more drag with a stopped prop vs. idle requiring more nose down than you can practice for.
This really isn't the prototypical impossible turn as he was in the air for 2 minutes after the problems started. I think there's quite a few pilots out there that would have made the turn back and an incident free landing that we'd never hear about.
So Sad, but this should not have happened, at all!!!!!!!
😢
Another impossible turn victim 😞
Negative. looks like they made the turn fine but fell short. Had they kept straight, they likely would have endangered more people and would have hit just has hard.
He may have tried to fight decent with the yoke, resulting in stall. In that case he may have been able to glide down, but who knows.
He stalled it much after turning. No wind at all. Heading for a field instead of runway overrun. Chumpp
He mighta dropped a wing, shooda flow straight ???
Dick McSpaddén had an Excellenté videô on how to be Handled such a situations called "The Impossible Túrn"
This guy obviously put more effort into calling "Mom and Pop for help" instead of leaning mixture a bit, and some carburetor heat. That solves most LOTOT ENGINE PROBLEMS. I know that since 1996 Bush Pilot Training.
Sorry, I have no sympathy for this kind of accident. It's drilled into you from the start to look for a landing site within the 30 deg cone off your nose after takeoff engine failure. I get they made it a little furter and it wasn't quite the impossible turn but any turn is going to cost you altitude and airspeed which costs you time and options..
He would have to have glided approximately four miles straight ahead north or landed on houses or city streets after clearing a major turnpike that runs around OKC. He did bank left (west) and there is an open area about 1 1/2 miles perhaps he could have glided to, but he obviously thought he could make the runway! Have no idea his altitude.
Would you have sympathy knowing a husband and wife died in this crash and left behind a 10 year old daughter? I don't usually GAF about A-holes on the internet but dang, they are real people, ya know? We all make mistakes.
As a pilot with over 10000 hours it makes no sense to ever put your life in danger to buzz around with one engine. Who does that? It is so stupid! I trained in a glider then motor glider then a cirrus back in 2006. All had parachutes. If your flight school doesn’t offer brs parachutes don’t give them your money.
Easy bullshit to spew when you're sitting comfortable in an A320 with dispatch doing your flight planning, MX taking care of your plane and another competent pilot next to you. After Colgan the rest of us have to sit 1,500 hours in a single engine plane built before the 90's doing circuits and stalls just to get a sniff of safe 135 or 121 flying, usually at $130 an hour for the first 250 hours, not counting the instructor, taxes, or DPE fees.
If your suggestion is for every low time pilot to log 1,500 hours in a $200 / hour Cirrus or a $450 / hour twin, I'll send you my ZELLE so you can wire some of that nice $400 / hour you're making sitting comfortable at Delta. I know a lot of pilots who will appreciate your financial contributions...
Craziest thing I've EVER heard, and I've been in Aviation 57 years. Pure Craziness!!!!!
10000 hrs in MSFS doesn't count.
@@16vr68 if your low IQ brain is worth only one engine then fly a plane with one engine. I don’t even fly now or driver. I buy industrial real estate so I have a pilot and a driver. Flying to me wasn’t fun, ever but a necessity. I’d get a plane with a brs as an option. Pipistrel, cirrus, some vans, some Cessnas….to name a few.
@@scotabot7826 it’s your age. Want me to list all the pilots that have died since 2000 that could have lived with a brs? Cirrus can recover from a spin…..ask Europe! Ask Gork to list all pilots in single engine Wh have died..it’ll spit out names and images! I never fly on a single…it is considered an emergency in my plane!
R I P