@@bri5490 Sure, but the rate of fire & performance of a static 7.62mm NATO GPMG and a 7.7mm Browning are close enough for this experiment to give a good idea of the kind of damage done. If they were using 50 cal M2 Browning or a 9mm calibre SMG, it would be meaningless. I guess the problem for the makers is finding 8 operational aircraft Brownings & getting them in one spot. Easier to just ask the Paras for a day at the range with the GPMGs!
They also failed to take into account the fact that fighters were wheeled onto a 'zero range' where the guns were synchronised for their arc or cone of fire to meet at a given distance chosen by the pilot.
@@orsonincharge4879 LOL and some times you could add to that pyrotechnics lol . You can take us out of the services but we will always be an ex-serviceman :-)
The world's top Scoring ace, Maj Erich Hartmann (352kills confirmed, all on the Eastern Front.), was known for getting so close (under 70Metres) that the enemy aircraft filled his windscreen before he even fired his guns. He had to bale out or crash-land some 9 times in Russia, each caused by damage from fragments of the aircraft he destroyed.... and he was shot down 2 or 3 times on top of that. He never claimed to be a marksman, as he had fought at the latter stages of the Battle of Britain and managed only 1 kill, his first. You can contrast that with the "Star of Africa" , Leutnant Hans-Joachim Marseille (158 Kills), who was a marksman and often returned to base with 2 or 3 kills and half his ammo unused. On one day he claimed 14 kills over 3 or 4 sorties, a claim the British disputed, even though they lost over 20 planes that day - a number were classed as "Overdue" and never returned to base, so were not listed as "Lost" for several days. Marseille would often call out at longer ranges, where he would shoot to his squadron mates: Engine... fuselage or Wing... and whatever he said, he hit. Hartmann survived the war, Soviet prison camp and became head of the West German Airforce later on. Sadly Marseille was killed in an accident flying a new Bf1099G. Apparently poisonous fumes started getting into the cockpit forcing him to bale out (No Oxygen). He struck the Plane's tail surfaces on exit and his parachute never opened. (The fumes were an issue with the G-0 (Combat ready, but not produced in numbers - Hartmann was in a G-0 and been asked to report on his impressions of it)and G-1 and G-2)
great sound i love the sound of gun fire grew up opposite Hythe ranges was stationed at larkhill hear the artillery impact area and still love the sound coming from the range in Hythe as a veteran
The more I watch Guy over the years I've become to realise he'd have made a bloody good soldier extremely fit and always thinking and most definitely fearless.
Erich Hartmann, the Luftwaffes top ace with 352 confirmed kills, said that he would, if possible, not open fire until he was within 50-75 yards from his enemy. He took a far greater risk getting that close without being hit himself but at that range he literally pumped so many shots into his enemy that they had no chance.
A little more background on those guns and how they are used commonly in the infantry (and a little bit about on mounted roles). The GPMG (FN Mag 58 in my experience - though there are other similar guns such as the American M240) is often used in an infantry fire support role to create a "beaten zone". My memory is pretty bad, but I think the math for how big that zone was came down to 2 factors. 1) the zone expands about 1m for every 100 metres and 2, the shape of the fire is a cone and the pattern on the ground changes with the angle the rounds come in at. So the more perpendicular you are to the target the more circular, else it is more like an elongated oval. Knowing this you can plan out how many guns are needed to create effective fire. You can kind-of see the beaten zone in the video, but it's more obvious when you see it from an elevated position. Typically multiple guns are set up and take turns bursting to help keep the fire up longer and to manage heat. You're meant to swap the barrel (after getting approval) every few hundred rounds to let it cool down - you do that while another gun is firing. The rate of fire of the MAG58 can be changed and "tuned" (often literally by ear) by turning the gas plug on the barrel. There is a tool in the cleaning kit that can help do this when the barrel is red hot and built-up carbon and brass has sped up the tune. (The default is something like 7 clicks back from fully closed). Assuming the tune is in the ballpark of what it should be and the amount of available ammunition is known, an officer can work out a fire control plan and provide an estimated number of minutes of cover fire they can provide for maneuver support allowing troops to retreat or to advance on the enemy who can't move or poke the heads out due to fire coming in on them. When the gun is used in mounted roles where there is a lot more traverse movement it is typical to tune for a faster rate of fire so that you can increase the amount of hits onto a moving target, especially at longer distances where the rounds tend to spread out - that's why guns in aircraft have very high rates of fire. ...and that's about it.
With the gas plug and tuning it you also need to balance them by turning the gas plug either way until the cocking handle aligns with a white line on the body of the gun
The rule of thumb is that one FNMAG is worth about 8-10 infantry riflemen. That's how much firepower you can deliver with it if you know that you are doing. The tolerance in the weapon gives you a nice spread at 300-400m or so. The fire doctrine when I did my military service was that you fire 15-20 round bursts. And once you start to fire the beast, you don't stop until either you are out of ammo or everything is dead in front of you.
1972 I was on Salisbury plain doing the gpmg in SFR laying onto a tank in the distance when a Morris minor came over a hill to the right of the tank , they weren’t really in any danger as they were spotted well before they reached the arc of fire ,it turned out to be an elderly couple got lost going for a picnic😂
@@shaunwild8797 Presume you're talking about the sheep at Sennybridge....fucking horrible place. 300 days of rain a year and the fecking wannabe SF lads of 23. Shit wish someone had lit me up before tramping around the place for a chunk of my life I'll never get back :D
@@tm-worldwide Dixies bloody corner.......the most miserablr place on the planet.......Sennybridge has never seen sunlight, even the slugs have vit D deficiency.
The machine guns of the Spitfire and Hurricane didn't fire in parallels lines. They were synchronized at different distances so as to make a wider cone at longer distances but also to converge at 200, 300 and 400 yards (distances might not be accurate) so when the enemy flies through the cone at least there's a higher probability that some rounds would hit the target. I hope I explained that right.
If I understand it correctly the machine guns in WW2 fighters weren't set up to fire directly ahead but each was slightly offset the further out along the wing so that their arcs of fire would cross at a certain distance from the air plane. Perhaps the the planes in question were synchronized to cross at a shorter range than was originally recommended.
Playing wargames, I've always thought of the rifle calibre MG armament as a bit anemic, when compared to 50cals, 20mm cannons or even the 37mm on the Lend-Lease Cobra fighters sent to Russia. This video was a reminder of the power of eight machineguns all firing at a fixed point. Impressive stuff!
@@Rooster---ooo for a full deflection shot, they should have pulled the target through at 300mph. Or looking at it another way, a burst of about 1/10th a second, or about 2/10th given the GPMG's lower rate of fire. Two rounds per gun, roughly.
@@fredblogs Battle Britain versions were fitted with 8x .303 guns, in 1941 they changed to 4x 20mm cannons. Later in the war some were even fitted with 12x .303s
Yeah, the title's off, but the effect is the same. I mean the Luftwaffe weren't flying plywood cut-outs either, and there weren't four paras on each wing of a hurricane.
@@tSp289 No but i bet if you asked for Paras to be strapped to the wings to aim and shoot those machine guns ....i bet there would have been enough nutters to make enough wing gunners !!! . Para's are mad and a different breed :-)
@@TzunSu The standard 174 grain MkVII ww2 303 produces 3,265 J of energy and the 180 grain produces 3,574 J. The 147 grain M70 7.62 produces 3,470 J and the 175 grain m118 produces 3,560 J so saying the 303 is quite bit more powerful is not correct as it depends on which version of each type you are comparing. I think you may be referring to American 30-06 which is just flat out more powerful.
I love the IA drill of this gun, its literally "Check clear, if you can't, try harder, and if a certain time passes and you still can't, run the fuck away and wait a couple minutes, before coming back, and check clear"
Something that they did not mention, but should have, is how the 8 MGs of the Spit and Hurri were harmonized to all converge at 250 yards. It seems pretty clear that these paras did not go for convergence, but rather just arbitrarily aimed at some point on the ME109 silhouette. Pretty cool demonstration, nevertheless. Clarence Anderson discussed in his book To Fly and Fight the incredible damage six .50 cal MGs in his Mustang could do when you hit a plane at a distance where all the rounds converged. Certainly, the .50 cal offers much bigger hitting power, but the .303 rounds all converging at the rate of fire of 1150 RPMs could be very effective. The problem is that that probably did not happen all that often, since when flying in a dogfight the pilot often has to take whatever shot he can get. It's often just a quick burst that one has time for. Much more than that and most of the rounds fly harmlessly past the target. And it's also necessary to be at the right distance from the target to maximize convergence. No doubt that going to a combo of two .303 and a 20mm on each wing, or one .50 cal. and a 20mm on each wing, was a big armament upgrade, however.
Guy, that must have been so much fun. Props to 3Para. I cant imagine what it was like as a Hurricane,or any other British fighter pilot in the day. SO FUCKING BRAVE. I stand in awe.
@@HO-bndk Yes, Hawker Siddeley Aircraft Company founded in 1934. It was the name of the company that created the Hawker Hurricane. The same company was also responsible for the design of the Supermarine Spitfire.
@@HO-bndk I get the confusion but the first flight wasn't until 1935 and the company had changed from Hawker Aircraft Group to Hawker Siddeley Aircraft Company. And yes, I know the Hawker Hurricane Wiki gets it wrong and lists the manufacturer as the Hawker Aircraft Company but if you read that same wiki, you'll see that the first models and designs weren't discussed until July 1934. The company had already changed hands at the point with the merger. If you actually go to the Hawker Siddeley wiki though, you'll see they are responsible for the design of the Hurricane and the Spitfire. :)
Mind you by the time the first models of Spitfires and Hurricanes were made with 8 machine guns, other nations moved on to heavier caliber machine guns and cannons like the .50 cal BMG or 20mm Oerlikon. Rifle caliber machine guns by the outbreak of WW2 were not as effective as they were during WW1 but the shear volume of fire by the early Spitfires and Hurricanes were enough to compensate it. Later models had their armaments upgraded to .50 M2 and 20mm cannons.
The guns used in this video are FN MAG’s (this variant designated L8A2 in British service) the MAG was designed in 1950 at Fabrique Nationale (FN) in Herstal, Belgium & went in to service in 1958, it was not “used during the battle of Britain” as it didn’t exist then, in fact it doesn’t even operate like the Browning 1919’s used then. The US designed & built Browning 1919 is short recoil operated & the FN MAG’s shown here are long stroke piston operated, @Guy Martin Proper
@@ToeKnee632 read the title of this video, speedy… Also it’s lower cyclic rate but that’s nothing to do with the title of this video, read before you condescend.
@@nicholsliwilson You're not very good with sarcasm I see! Yes the title is very slightly misleading. But anyone with half a braincell and working ears could tell they were GPMG's within a second, the copy and paste Wiki knowledge wasn't required. Also r/dontbeadickallyourlife
@@ToeKnee632 LOL! So you've sunk to claiming it's "sarcasm," the fallback of anyone not strong enough to own their mistakes. 😄 Oh & that wasn't a petty insult like yours, you really are on r/confidentlyincorrect for the world to laugh at. I'll have to update it with this tomorrow, that's hilarious. 😄
I don’t think you can appreciate what it’s like having 8 machine guns firing at once until you watch this demonstration then you can get a better understanding about how much destructive power these aeroplanes had.
That sound was truely awsome. Now take a moment to consider what it would be like on the receiving end of a P47 Thunderbolt with eight .50 caliber machine guns.
The Hurricane was even more effective because those 8 guns were in 2 groups of 4, each about 1 foot or less from the next whereas - The Spitfire Mk I had 8 guns spread out over most of the wing outboard of the Propeller arc, the outermost pair were 3 feet apart.
Two questions: At what range were the guns harmonized at the different times? What are the dispersions of a wing-mounted Browning Mk.II compared to a tripod-mounted GPMG?
The wing mounted armament had the ability of being fixed so that the streams of fire of the guns would converge on a singular area a certain distance in front of the aircraft to deliver a more concentrated impact on an enemy aircraft. I read where during the battle of Britain some pilots had their guns converge at 100 yards. Even this couldn't totally make up for the .303 Browning's lack of hitting power on metal skinned aircraft of the time, leading to its eventual replacement with 20mm cannon on the last mks of Hurricanes and Spits. The Germans likewise had issues with rifle caliber aircraft weapons. The down side of cannon weaponry though was ammo capacity of 150 rds per gun or so. The American .50BMG was the middle ground of ammo effectiveness and ammo capacity.
The RAF brass didn't believe the Poles' claims of enemy planes shot down. They sent up a wing commander to observe an interception on a German formation. He said the Poles went right into the middle of them and all of a sudden there were German planes falling out of the sky trailing bits and pieces behind them. He reported that the Poles claims should be regarded as accurate.
ngl, there is something both awe inspiring and terrifying about 8 machine guns all firing at once. I wouldnt wanna be the unlucky person on the recieving end of that.
To get an even better match it would have been better to group those Machine guns in 2 groups of four, each gun about 1 foot from the next and each group about 10-12 feet apart, and aimed as a group at each of the targets, just to simulate the separation of the 8 guns on a real Hurricane Mk1. (4 guns per wing.) Other than that, an interesting experiment to see.
I appreciate the technical aspect of this experience, but in wartime conditions under extreme duress, cannot be measured. Those Battle of Britain’ RAF pilots were absolutely tremendous
The german fighter Ace of ww1 manfred von Richthofen known as the The ''Red Baron', achieved a score of 80 downed allied aircraft, in his writings about his method, he describes his tactic to get as close as possible, feet away from the enemies rudder so it guaranteed a kill before he himself was shot down , ironically not by another aircraft, but by enemy ground fire . Lol
Your statement he shot down only stragglers how many in his 80 confirmed kills were stragglers ? In one engagement 1917 he downed 4 British aircraft in one day, his tactic of closing on the enemy till your on his tail s also still valid too he never flew alone he had a wingman to cover his rear , he created a new unit the flying Circus all experienced fighter pilots, The Top fighter aces of the Luftwaffe WW2 adoff Galland always had wingman covering his rear that was all they did protect him, Douglas bader talks with Galland on many occasions on tactics each methods in his biography he mentions this .... Erich Hartmann employed the same tactics from Richthofen methods /tactic closed on the enemy until! Your sights are filled he achieved the highest kill ration of any fighter Pilot in WW2 all his kills were fighters read his biography he didn't shoot down just stragglers through if any were caught well tough .
@@iainreid9822 no idea his name was George Buring a Canadian spitfire ace. He shot down 27 aircraft in 14 days. He was a master of aerial shooting and ammo conservation. Maybe he noticed a difference in trajectory? Anyway after ground firing practice he got his mechanic to remove the tracers as he felt they were atleast unbenifical.
Some pilots asked for no tracer rounds as often the first thing an enemy plane would know that they were under attack (& from which direction) was to see tracer bullets flying past. Remove the tracer and they have less time to react. At closer ranges they aren't needed anyway.
It's an area weapon i.e. not designed to put every round down in close proximity, the idea being it can blanket an area with rounds thereby either killing the enemy or making them keep their heads down.
it was not just range, but the distance where the guns where synchronised to meet at a point in the distance, so they were not parallel but angle in slightly.
@@ERAUsnow They couldn't get them, the yanks had them all. Cannons were the real shredder, would have blown those targets apart, hence why the US adopted them in the 50's, but when they tried in 1940 the wings flexed to much, causing them to jam, later models had them
The problem is they are using M240 or FNMAG general purpose machine gun, which is developed right after WW2. The machine gun used by the Hawker Hurricane was actually the American M1919.
where do start the 303 is bigger than the 7.63of the GPMG. the GPMG is a version of the the FN mag designed in 1950 so they are not the guns used 11 years beforehand
the poles don’t just go for the plane.. they literally turned a BF109 into a flying coffin.. either blowing up the fuel tank or directly annihilating the pilot into minced meat
I wonder if they might have gotten a different result if they’d set up the GPMG’s the same way that the Brownings were set up in the Hurricane, two groups of four machine guns set up either side of the fuselage and not eight guns set up in a row.
Ok, so not Browning .303's. The headline is what drew me to the video in the first place. I do seem to remember that Guy did fire a Browning that had been recovered from a crashed Hurricane or Spitfire. A couple of the Browning's were restored to working condition. As an aside while on the range one day, during my turn in the butts a Gimpy was being fired. The noise and power of those rounds going just a couple of feet over your head has to be seen to be believed. At one point, the gun firing at the target I was responsible for fired low. The power of the gun was such that a lot of dirt and rubble came over the top, showering us below. Quite an experience to be at the receiving end. I much preferred the punch of the 7.62mm.
Cool video. Long time since I fired a Gimpy but I seem to recall the rate of fire as 750rpm as opposed to the Browning's 1,150 rpm (that's 153 rounds per second from a Spit). So you would need over 12 Gimpys to replicate the true rate of fire. The MG42 has a similar rate of fire and has a firing sound where the shots almost blend together. Eight Brownings firing together is simply a continuous "burr" sound even more than a Minigun.
There was a spitfire that crashed in a bog in Donegal during the war. 70 odd years later they retrieved the wreckage and the Irish army got the machine guns operational again and fired them in the firing range in the Curragh.
@@user-zm8bs9cf6f it's getting to three months ever since I read about Mr Oliver Alejandro on twitter,and after I got familiar with his platform, I made a decision of going into full trading with him.
Trading generally is not easy as it seems that's why it's advisable for one to invest with a good trader who gives guidelines and also decides when it's a good time to invest.
@@user-nv7ry3jp1v I completely agree with you considering the market sentiment and how complicating the market can be, An Expert is essential for lucrative investment in the market
im actually shocked that this is insinuating that the FN MAG/ GPMG was used during the battle of britain and that the 7.62x51 ammo used in this gun is the same as the 303 british used in the battle of britain
Now try a moving target and deflection shooting. They make it look easy with stationary targets and stationery firing. And while they're at it, have someone shooting 20 mm cannon back at them
The title its click bait I was expecting brens brownings designs it could been better titled ammomution used in that battle and instead of a Me109 silhouette they should put a Toyota tactical one.
To watch the full documentary, click here 👉 www.channel4.com/programmes/guy-martin-battle-of-britain
All Wars are Fake and you know it.
All Wars are Fake.
All wars are fake though Guy... & you know it!
“Guy fires the machine guns used during the Battle of Britain” but in fact, Guy does not fire the machine guns used during the Battle of Britain
Yeah stupid title. A GPMG has fuck all in common with a Browning. 303
@@AllThingsCubey It's analogous to the armament of the Hurricane. Similar RoF & calibre. The title is daft but the experiment is fine.
The British Army used the Bren gun or Vickers and trained with Lewis guns. The RAF Spitfires and Hurricanes used Browning 303.
@@bri5490 Sure, but the rate of fire & performance of a static 7.62mm NATO GPMG and a 7.7mm Browning are close enough for this experiment to give a good idea of the kind of damage done.
If they were using 50 cal M2 Browning or a 9mm calibre SMG, it would be meaningless. I guess the problem for the makers is finding 8 operational aircraft Brownings & getting them in one spot. Easier to just ask the Paras for a day at the range with the GPMGs!
They also failed to take into account the fact that fighters were wheeled onto a 'zero range' where the guns were synchronised for their arc or cone of fire to meet at a given distance chosen by the pilot.
“I’m the General, using this Machine Gun, with ******* Purpose!”
Those that know.......
open fresh air windows..... bulletproof in fact...
haha yeah, classic!
this is my pillow, *slaps metal tin
Welcome to my crib.
Got some flares to shoot the locals if they start fucking about
I bet those Paras had fun picking up all that brass afterward.
Think of the weigh in tho!! £2-300 🤣
Get the beers in lads!!!
Bet they were up at 0330 to lick the range clean for the cameras
Yes remember the days you had to pick up all your spent cartridges !!!
@@zeberdee1972 .. I have no live rounds or empty cases in my possession sir
@@orsonincharge4879 LOL and some times you could add to that pyrotechnics lol . You can take us out of the services but we will always be an ex-serviceman :-)
'You're less likely to miss the nearer you are to the target'. Absolute revelation!
The world's top Scoring ace, Maj Erich Hartmann (352kills confirmed, all on the Eastern Front.), was known for getting so close (under 70Metres) that the enemy aircraft filled his windscreen before he even fired his guns. He had to bale out or crash-land some 9 times in Russia, each caused by damage from fragments of the aircraft he destroyed.... and he was shot down 2 or 3 times on top of that. He never claimed to be a marksman, as he had fought at the latter stages of the Battle of Britain and managed only 1 kill, his first.
You can contrast that with the "Star of Africa" , Leutnant Hans-Joachim Marseille (158 Kills), who was a marksman and often returned to base with 2 or 3 kills and half his ammo unused. On one day he claimed 14 kills over 3 or 4 sorties, a claim the British disputed, even though they lost over 20 planes that day - a number were classed as "Overdue" and never returned to base, so were not listed as "Lost" for several days. Marseille would often call out at longer ranges, where he would shoot to his squadron mates: Engine... fuselage or Wing... and whatever he said, he hit. Hartmann survived the war, Soviet prison camp and became head of the West German Airforce later on. Sadly Marseille was killed in an accident flying a new Bf1099G. Apparently poisonous fumes started getting into the cockpit forcing him to bale out (No Oxygen). He struck the Plane's tail surfaces on exit and his parachute never opened. (The fumes were an issue with the G-0 (Combat ready, but not produced in numbers - Hartmann was in a G-0 and been asked to report on his impressions of it)and G-1 and G-2)
@@brettpeacock9116 wow i can say anything. Thank you for the info
No, it's: "The further you are from a target, the more likely you are to not hit". Mind blown!
@@brettpeacock9116 I was just thinking about Eric Hartman. Thanks for mentioing him.
The (corrected: Soviets) had a bounty on him
@@SuperParatech The Russians had the bounty on Hartmann, he was german.
The sound of the guns firing in tandem is scary enough.
Its more remarkable when you hear WW2 pilots say they could barely hear their own guns firing while in the cockpit.
@@HO-bndk That’s cool I didn’t know that
great sound i love the sound of gun fire grew up opposite Hythe ranges was stationed at larkhill hear the artillery impact area and still love the sound coming from the range in Hythe as a veteran
Fr
It's the one you don't hear that gets you
The more I watch Guy over the years I've become to realise he'd have made a bloody good soldier extremely fit and always thinking and most definitely fearless.
As an ex-soldier,to be honest,Guy would be a Royal Marine given the choice.He likes the fact the beret colour is the same as GWR loco's.
@@gregc2467 also think he will be a rmc if given a choice, he has before mentioned traits amd good taste.
I agree chaps, if only to see Guy in military uniform - ooof!!!!!!
You can’t be fearless though. He really is a bit of a nutter. The things he has done, no way.
Easy to be fearless until your on a two way range
A national treasure
So is guy....
Erich Hartmann, the Luftwaffes top ace with 352 confirmed kills, said that he would, if possible, not open fire until he was within 50-75 yards from his enemy. He took a far greater risk getting that close without being hit himself but at that range he literally pumped so many shots into his enemy that they had no chance.
He also had to make many forced landings after his plane was damaged by bits of enemy planes hitting it.
In his words "I wouldnt fire until they filled the entire window"
Hartmann also didn’t have to worry so much about gun convergence
Galland said that being in front of a Hurricane was like " poured on by a watering can of lead "
@DANIEL PRADO please tell me you have other sources other than google
A lot of segments in shows like this are filler… this is absolutely amazing.
A little more background on those guns and how they are used commonly in the infantry (and a little bit about on mounted roles).
The GPMG (FN Mag 58 in my experience - though there are other similar guns such as the American M240) is often used in an infantry fire support role to create a "beaten zone". My memory is pretty bad, but I think the math for how big that zone was came down to 2 factors. 1) the zone expands about 1m for every 100 metres and 2, the shape of the fire is a cone and the pattern on the ground changes with the angle the rounds come in at. So the more perpendicular you are to the target the more circular, else it is more like an elongated oval. Knowing this you can plan out how many guns are needed to create effective fire. You can kind-of see the beaten zone in the video, but it's more obvious when you see it from an elevated position.
Typically multiple guns are set up and take turns bursting to help keep the fire up longer and to manage heat. You're meant to swap the barrel (after getting approval) every few hundred rounds to let it cool down - you do that while another gun is firing.
The rate of fire of the MAG58 can be changed and "tuned" (often literally by ear) by turning the gas plug on the barrel. There is a tool in the cleaning kit that can help do this when the barrel is red hot and built-up carbon and brass has sped up the tune. (The default is something like 7 clicks back from fully closed). Assuming the tune is in the ballpark of what it should be and the amount of available ammunition is known, an officer can work out a fire control plan and provide an estimated number of minutes of cover fire they can provide for maneuver support allowing troops to retreat or to advance on the enemy who can't move or poke the heads out due to fire coming in on them.
When the gun is used in mounted roles where there is a lot more traverse movement it is typical to tune for a faster rate of fire so that you can increase the amount of hits onto a moving target, especially at longer distances where the rounds tend to spread out - that's why guns in aircraft have very high rates of fire.
...and that's about it.
interesting 👍
At 600M the beaten zone was 110M long x 0.5M wide. At 1000M it is 55M long x 1M wide. That is if my memory from 35+ years ago serves me right.
Not only similar. the M240 is a license built FN Mag.
With the gas plug and tuning it you also need to balance them by turning the gas plug either way until the cocking handle aligns with a white line on the body of the gun
The rule of thumb is that one FNMAG is worth about 8-10 infantry riflemen. That's how much firepower you can deliver with it if you know that you are doing. The tolerance in the weapon gives you a nice spread at 300-400m or so.
The fire doctrine when I did my military service was that you fire 15-20 round bursts. And once you start to fire the beast, you don't stop until either you are out of ammo or everything is dead in front of you.
How cool was the cut out of the BF 109. I want one in my front yard, with a Spitfire chasing it.
uh, make one yourself perhaps?
1972 I was on Salisbury plain doing the gpmg in SFR laying onto a tank in the distance when a Morris minor came over a hill to the right of the tank , they weren’t really in any danger as they were spotted well before they reached the arc of fire ,it turned out to be an elderly couple got lost going for a picnic😂
Sir, Mam I'm afraid you can't drive here
Why ever not?
Well the lads really want to fire their machine guns and you're right in the way.
You should have lit them up . It would have been the kindest thing to do. 😀
@@shaunwild8797 Presume you're talking about the sheep at Sennybridge....fucking horrible place. 300 days of rain a year and the fecking wannabe SF lads of 23. Shit wish someone had lit me up before tramping around the place for a chunk of my life I'll never get back :D
@@tm-worldwide Dixies bloody corner.......the most miserablr place on the planet.......Sennybridge has never seen sunlight, even the slugs have vit D deficiency.
@@tm-worldwide I meant the old couple in the car but for an added bonus the sheep could be next. 😁
The machine guns of the Spitfire and Hurricane didn't fire in parallels lines. They were synchronized at different distances so as to make a wider cone at longer distances but also to converge at 200, 300 and 400 yards (distances might not be accurate) so when the enemy flies through the cone at least there's a higher probability that some rounds would hit the target. I hope I explained that right.
If I understand it correctly the machine guns in WW2 fighters weren't set up to fire directly ahead but each was slightly offset the further out along the wing so that their arcs of fire would cross at a certain distance from the air plane. Perhaps the the planes in question were synchronized to cross at a shorter range than was originally recommended.
those guns all at once is the only time ive experienced asmr
Triggers me that they are using yards
Why u so low?
Why? The RAF measured range in yards back then, you can see it on the gunsights.
Allies using yards as the reference measurement during WW2.
heyyy
that's the Frenchness from Canada infecting your mind
That is an impressive amount of firepower.... Later on they had a couple of cannons but damn 8 machine guns going at it is impressive!
The aircraft mounted guns had a much higher rate of fire too
Playing wargames, I've always thought of the rifle calibre MG armament as a bit anemic, when compared to 50cals, 20mm cannons or even the 37mm on the Lend-Lease Cobra fighters sent to Russia. This video was a reminder of the power of eight machineguns all firing at a fixed point. Impressive stuff!
@@Rooster---ooo for a full deflection shot, they should have pulled the target through at 300mph. Or looking at it another way, a burst of about 1/10th a second, or about 2/10th given the GPMG's lower rate of fire. Two rounds per gun, roughly.
@@j.yossarian6852 Yes but they were never fitted with eight machine guns, only four.
@@fredblogs Battle Britain versions were fitted with 8x .303 guns, in 1941 they changed to 4x 20mm cannons. Later in the war some were even fitted with 12x .303s
Hats off to guy and the Para's I bet that was an awesome experience for all of them 👍👊
lets see if anyone gets it:
"Hit."
"Hit."
"Hit."
"Critical hit!"
"Enemy suffers damage on right wing."
"Hit."
"Enemy kill assist."
Everytime with Bf109 30mm or less then american 50 cal goes boom headshot
*”If we dont do something the enemy will win”*
@@xdlmao7880 "Attack the enemy!"
"YOU'VE GOT A HOLE IN YOUR RIGHT WING!"
there's a hole in your right wing!
Just when the Range Warden is having an easy day, the phone rings and the Commandant of the training area requests two ME BF109 targets...😀
“I bet he’s out cheating on me”
Me and the boys:
That's a bit of an unfortunate title. These machine guns were not used during the battle of Britain, they're just modern stand-ins.
I think they're just trying to show that they are standard machine gun caliber bullets, as opposed to .50 or 20mm.
Could be clearer though.
Yeah, the title's off, but the effect is the same. I mean the Luftwaffe weren't flying plywood cut-outs either, and there weren't four paras on each wing of a hurricane.
@@tSp289 Eh, not really. The .303 is quite a bit more powerful then the 7.62 NATO.
@@tSp289 No but i bet if you asked for Paras to be strapped to the wings to aim and shoot those machine guns ....i bet there would have been enough nutters to make enough wing gunners !!! . Para's are mad and a different breed :-)
@@TzunSu The standard 174 grain MkVII ww2 303 produces 3,265 J of energy and the 180 grain produces 3,574 J. The 147 grain M70 7.62 produces 3,470 J and the 175 grain m118 produces 3,560 J so saying the 303 is quite bit more powerful is not correct as it depends on which version of each type you are comparing. I think you may be referring to American 30-06 which is just flat out more powerful.
“Proof is in the pudding!” Couldn’t have put it better!!! Can’t argue with what you can see! 👍🏻👍🏻
I love the IA drill of this gun, its literally
"Check clear, if you can't, try harder, and if a certain time passes and you still can't, run the fuck away and wait a couple minutes, before coming back, and check clear"
Something that they did not mention, but should have, is how the 8 MGs of the Spit and Hurri were harmonized to all converge at 250 yards. It seems pretty clear that these paras did not go for convergence, but rather just arbitrarily aimed at some point on the ME109 silhouette. Pretty cool demonstration, nevertheless.
Clarence Anderson discussed in his book To Fly and Fight the incredible damage six .50 cal MGs in his Mustang could do when you hit a plane at a distance where all the rounds converged. Certainly, the .50 cal offers much bigger hitting power, but the .303 rounds all converging at the rate of fire of 1150 RPMs could be very effective. The problem is that that probably did not happen all that often, since when flying in a dogfight the pilot often has to take whatever shot he can get. It's often just a quick burst that one has time for. Much more than that and most of the rounds fly harmlessly past the target. And it's also necessary to be at the right distance from the target to maximize convergence.
No doubt that going to a combo of two .303 and a 20mm on each wing, or one .50 cal. and a 20mm on each wing, was a big armament upgrade, however.
Those guns are absolutely humming....its beautiful.
Narrator: “16 seconds of ammo...3 second burst”
Me in any WW2 game: So anyways, I started blasting
GLORIOUS... Thank you Mr Martin, and a thank you to the Gentlemen helping.
Proper Legends, all of them 🇬🇧👍🏻
Guy, that must have been so much fun. Props to 3Para. I cant imagine what it was like as a Hurricane,or any other British fighter pilot in the day. SO FUCKING BRAVE. I stand in awe.
Genuinely one of the coolest things I've ever seen
That was frikkin *awesome*
Guy once used a Browning against a BMW car. thathad a more relevant and realistic effect than shooting plywood.
It was a .50 cal, and not used by RAF in BoB. And this was a klickbait title, I ekspected .30 cal Brovnings and MG 15...
Had to carry one of these in afghan hated it until we got into a firefight then it's the best thing in the world
Cheers Guy. Great scenario, footage, filming, editing. Thanks to 3 Para also.
Guy is absolute class and reminds me soo much of the great Fred Dibnah......
Guy is to modern mechanics what Fred was to steam mechanics!
As an amateur model builder I saw that bfg 109 and recognized it immediately 😂👍🏻
I think the doco could have mentioned the ins and outs of the term "deflection" which is a huge factor in aerial gunnery
Deflection shooting is probably beyond the interest of the common viewer but it should still be mentioned as a very relevant part of aerial warfare.
Hawker Siddeley Hurricane with 8 guns: Slows down.
Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II with the GAU-8 Avenger: Hold my Beer.
"Hawker Siddeley" Hurricane!?
@@HO-bndk Yes, Hawker Siddeley Aircraft Company founded in 1934. It was the name of the company that created the Hawker Hurricane. The same company was also responsible for the design of the Supermarine Spitfire.
@@HO-bndk I get the confusion but the first flight wasn't until 1935 and the company had changed from Hawker Aircraft Group to Hawker Siddeley Aircraft Company. And yes, I know the Hawker Hurricane Wiki gets it wrong and lists the manufacturer as the Hawker Aircraft Company but if you read that same wiki, you'll see that the first models and designs weren't discussed until July 1934. The company had already changed hands at the point with the merger.
If you actually go to the Hawker Siddeley wiki though, you'll see they are responsible for the design of the Hurricane and the Spitfire. :)
Its a pity the BF109 was not moving, that would be very interesting
Maybe. However it’s a bit more practical to be experiment with density/area of fire per distance, given the historical context explained in the video.
Mind you by the time the first models of Spitfires and Hurricanes were made with 8 machine guns, other nations moved on to heavier caliber machine guns and cannons like the .50 cal BMG or 20mm Oerlikon. Rifle caliber machine guns by the outbreak of WW2 were not as effective as they were during WW1 but the shear volume of fire by the early Spitfires and Hurricanes were enough to compensate it. Later models had their armaments upgraded to .50 M2 and 20mm cannons.
The guns used in this video are FN MAG’s (this variant designated L8A2 in British service) the MAG was designed in 1950 at Fabrique Nationale (FN) in Herstal, Belgium & went in to service in 1958, it was not “used during the battle of Britain” as it didn’t exist then, in fact it doesn’t even operate like the Browning 1919’s used then. The US designed & built Browning 1919 is short recoil operated & the FN MAG’s shown here are long stroke piston operated, @Guy Martin Proper
Well done speedy!... they did say if you listened, it was a representation with similar cyclic rate and caliber.
@@ToeKnee632 read the title of this video, speedy…
Also it’s lower cyclic rate but that’s nothing to do with the title of this video, read before you condescend.
@@ToeKnee632 also r/confidentlyincorrect
@@nicholsliwilson You're not very good with sarcasm I see!
Yes the title is very slightly misleading. But anyone with half a braincell and working ears could tell they were GPMG's within a second, the copy and paste Wiki knowledge wasn't required.
Also r/dontbeadickallyourlife
@@ToeKnee632 LOL! So you've sunk to claiming it's "sarcasm," the fallback of anyone not strong enough to own their mistakes. 😄
Oh & that wasn't a petty insult like yours, you really are on r/confidentlyincorrect for the world to laugh at. I'll have to update it with this tomorrow, that's hilarious. 😄
I don’t think you can appreciate what it’s like having 8 machine guns firing at once until you watch this demonstration then you can get a better understanding about how much destructive power these aeroplanes had.
That sound was truely awsome.
Now take a moment to consider what it would be like on the receiving end of a P47 Thunderbolt with eight .50 caliber machine guns.
The Hurricane was even more effective because those 8 guns were in 2 groups of 4, each about 1 foot or less from the next whereas - The Spitfire Mk I had 8 guns spread out over most of the wing outboard of the Propeller arc, the outermost pair were 3 feet apart.
That must have been a fun day out.
I'm sure those are versions of the FN MAG-58, which was made and introduced after the Battle of Britain
th-cam.com/video/VwtPsO5MND4/w-d-xo.html
this more like it, the Browning as used in RAF service.
I bloody love this guy....National Treasure
Two questions:
At what range were the guns harmonized at the different times?
What are the dispersions of a wing-mounted Browning Mk.II compared to a tripod-mounted GPMG?
Its closer to recreating the Long Range Desert Group machine gunning some parked aircraft than air to air.
@@Craigx71 The aircraft .303 Browning rate of fire was 1200 rpm
The wing mounted armament had the ability of being fixed so that the streams of fire of the guns would converge on a singular area a certain distance in front of the aircraft to deliver a more concentrated impact on an enemy aircraft. I read where during the battle of Britain some pilots had their guns converge at 100 yards. Even this couldn't totally make up for the .303 Browning's lack of hitting power on metal skinned aircraft of the time, leading to its eventual replacement with 20mm cannon on the last mks of Hurricanes and Spits. The Germans likewise had issues with rifle caliber aircraft weapons. The down side of cannon weaponry though was ammo capacity of 150 rds per gun or so. The American .50BMG was the middle ground of ammo effectiveness and ammo capacity.
Just ask the Poles in the RAF how close they got. They'd be practically knocking on the door before they opened up.
The RAF brass didn't believe the Poles' claims of enemy planes shot down. They sent up a wing commander to observe an interception on a German formation. He said the Poles went right into the middle of them and all of a sudden there were German planes falling out of the sky trailing bits and pieces behind them. He reported that the Poles claims should be regarded as accurate.
ngl, there is something both awe inspiring and terrifying about 8 machine guns all firing at once. I wouldnt wanna be the unlucky person on the recieving end of that.
3:54 FIRE!!!
The conclusion is obvious, but the fun the guys had and hearing the 8 machine guns firing was excellent. Thanks ¡ Greetings from Mexico City.
To get an even better match it would have been better to group those Machine guns in 2 groups of four, each gun about 1 foot from the next and each group about 10-12 feet apart, and aimed as a group at each of the targets, just to simulate the separation of the 8 guns on a real Hurricane Mk1. (4 guns per wing.) Other than that, an interesting experiment to see.
on a moving , vibrating aircraft with the wings flexing.
I appreciate the technical aspect of this experience, but in wartime conditions under extreme duress, cannot be measured. Those Battle of Britain’ RAF pilots were absolutely tremendous
reminds me of the last time I had indian food.
Lmfao.
Imagine what would happen if you had taco bill
Wonder how many rounds went through the first target and into the second
Now that you mentioned it that was a flaw in this experiment. Then again this was Done for TV so statistical data accuracy is not really required.
You don't actually think they put them in line with each other do you, lmao.
pretty solid comment right there.... the 250 target wasnt in place until needed!
What's more amazing is how guy survived being bummed or having a Gpmg barrel shoved up his bottom.
Thank fuck he wasn’t with 3 para mortar platoon
That's probably why the Polish Squadron were so successful during the battle of Britain.
The guns were harmonized so they all converged at a single point 250 yards away. After that point they bullets went away from each other.
Greg’s Planes and Automobiles has a great video explaining the different spreads and points of convergence.
Wasnt the Messerschmidt 109 armed with a 50 mil canon which with a couple of direct hits would decimate any target fired upon?
The german fighter Ace of ww1 manfred von Richthofen known as the The ''Red Baron', achieved a score of 80 downed allied aircraft, in his writings about his method, he describes his tactic to get as close as possible, feet away from the enemies rudder so it guaranteed a kill before he himself was shot down , ironically not by another aircraft, but by enemy ground fire . Lol
The red baron always went for the straggler. That was his tactic.
Your statement he shot down only stragglers how many in his 80 confirmed kills were stragglers ? In one engagement 1917 he downed 4 British aircraft in one day, his tactic of closing on the enemy till your on his tail s also still valid too he never flew alone he had a wingman to cover his rear , he created a new unit the flying Circus all experienced fighter pilots, The Top fighter aces of the Luftwaffe WW2 adoff Galland always had wingman covering his rear that was all they did protect him, Douglas bader talks with Galland on many occasions on tactics each methods in his biography he mentions this .... Erich Hartmann employed the same tactics from Richthofen methods /tactic closed on the enemy until! Your sights are filled he achieved the highest kill ration of any fighter Pilot in WW2 all his kills were fighters read his biography he didn't shoot down just stragglers through if any were caught well tough .
GREAT VIDEO GUY !!👍👍👍
I remember the story of one of the pilots during the battle of Malta even removed his tracers so he had more useful rounds.
Why would removing his tracers - which are real bullets but with a phosphorous tail that lit up on firing - be 'more useful'.
@@iainreid9822 no idea his name was George Buring a Canadian spitfire ace. He shot down 27 aircraft in 14 days. He was a master of aerial shooting and ammo conservation. Maybe he noticed a difference in trajectory? Anyway after ground firing practice he got his mechanic to remove the tracers as he felt they were atleast unbenifical.
@@iainreid9822 Tracer bullet is lighter, 150grns than the ball, 174grns, so the tracers go to a different point of impact.
Some pilots asked for no tracer rounds as often the first thing an enemy plane would know that they were under attack (& from which direction) was to see tracer bullets flying past. Remove the tracer and they have less time to react. At closer ranges they aren't needed anyway.
@@nickmoore385 I’m thinking that your point about the tracers warning the enemy pilot as to who was attacking him is the most relevant reason.
general purpose machine gun? i would think they are very specific
The gimpy is a mahinegun that is used pretty much everywhere hence why general purpose
don't forget the bf109s powerful 20mm
Or the Hurricane Mark IIA Series 2 with four 20mm cannon
Surely most of these engagements would be from behind as opposed to the side so the target presented would potentially be quite significantly smaller
I dont know how true this is but I seem to remember that gpmgs deliver an elliptical spread of shot, love the series
All machine guns do that.
In the SF role, yes.
It's an area weapon i.e. not designed to put every round down in close proximity, the idea being it can blanket an area with rounds thereby either killing the enemy or making them keep their heads down.
it was not just range, but the distance where the guns where synchronised to meet at a point in the distance, so they were not parallel but angle in slightly.
I've been waiting for years to see a video like this, always wanted to see what the 8 guns in a a spitfire or hurricane could do to a target 👍
Now fast forward 3 years into the war when the P-47 shows up. Forget them dinky .303s...imagine what an octet of .50s would do.
@@ERAUsnow them 50cals are proper meat choppers , you'd definitely be in trouble if came under fire from one.
@@ERAUsnow They couldn't get them, the yanks had them all. Cannons were the real shredder, would have blown those targets apart, hence why the US adopted them in the 50's, but when they tried in 1940 the wings flexed to much, causing them to jam, later models had them
You should make the same test with the 6 .50 cal. from the P-51 Mustang.
As much as i troll this channel for no reason
That firing of the 8 machine guns at the same time was awesome.
These guns are mad I used to love watching the old pilot footage from ww2
Fuckin' scary what machine guns can do.
especially 8 of them.
They'll shred brickwork - so firing across the bottom of a house causes it to collapse in on itself.
You wait until you see what a 20 or 30mm cannon will do, scary stuff.
@@andrewwaller5913 Cannon shells explode - different ballpark. 1:1 tracer is fun, though - it looks like laser.
The problem is they are using M240 or FNMAG general purpose machine gun, which is developed right after WW2. The machine gun used by the Hawker Hurricane was actually the American M1919.
7.62x51mm GPMG used in the Battle of Britain? Blimey they must have a time machine.
Isn't there a version of the Spitfire with 12 .303s? Or am i thinking of the Hurricane
Poles used to zero their guns very close I think a 100m
where do start the 303 is bigger than the 7.63of the GPMG. the GPMG is a version of the the FN mag designed in 1950 so
they are not the guns used 11 years beforehand
The Poles were famous for opening fire at 100 yards!!
Even then his mates would be yelling at him to get closer!
the poles don’t just go for the plane.. they literally turned a BF109 into a flying coffin.. either blowing up the fuel tank or directly annihilating the pilot into minced meat
I know I'm late but what the name of the sound when the bullets hit the floor (what i mean is this sound 2:31
They can handle a gun as easily as a jug of beer
All soldiers should be able to, they are trained in all weapons in use, from pistols to anti tank weapons, they are regularly tested, too.
@@davidpowell6098 and marines !
Fantastic reference for a little CG Spitfire short I am making. Saving this for later.
Thank god we had those boys back in 1940.
This is bloody brilliant
Proper👍
I wonder if they might have gotten a different result if they’d set up the GPMG’s the same way that the Brownings were set up in the Hurricane, two groups of four machine guns set up either side of the fuselage and not eight guns set up in a row.
Sadly we have lost the last and latest battle to secure our borders thank you Tory mob.
Ok, so not Browning .303's. The headline is what drew me to the video in the first place. I do seem to remember that Guy did fire a Browning that had been recovered from a crashed Hurricane or Spitfire. A couple of the Browning's were restored to working condition.
As an aside while on the range one day, during my turn in the butts a Gimpy was being fired. The noise and power of those rounds going just a couple of feet over your head has to be seen to be believed. At one point, the gun firing at the target I was responsible for fired low. The power of the gun was such that a lot of dirt and rubble came over the top, showering us below. Quite an experience to be at the receiving end.
I much preferred the punch of the 7.62mm.
Pretty sure these aren't .303's. That stuff hasn't been in use in NATO countries for like 5 billion years.
My god so British the accent is legendary
Cool video. Long time since I fired a Gimpy but I seem to recall the rate of fire as 750rpm as opposed to the Browning's 1,150 rpm (that's 153 rounds per second from a Spit). So you would need over 12 Gimpys to replicate the true rate of fire. The MG42 has a similar rate of fire and has a firing sound where the shots almost blend together. Eight Brownings firing together is simply a continuous "burr" sound even more than a Minigun.
Cool to see some of the bullets are keyholing since they are hitting each other
mid flight.
thank fuck it wasnt 3 para mortar pl
There was a spitfire that crashed in a bog in Donegal during the war. 70 odd years later they retrieved the wreckage and the Irish army got the machine guns operational again and fired them in the firing range in the Curragh.
just made $15,000 last week nice video by the way!!
How did you earn that much?
@@user-zm8bs9cf6f it's getting to three months ever since I read about Mr Oliver Alejandro on twitter,and after I got familiar with his platform, I made a decision of going into full trading with him.
Trading generally is not easy as it seems that's why it's advisable for one to invest with a good trader who gives guidelines and also decides when it's a good time to invest.
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im actually shocked that this is insinuating that the FN MAG/ GPMG was used during the battle of britain and that the 7.62x51 ammo used in this gun is the same as the 303 british used in the battle of britain
It’s similar to 303 didn’t you listen to what he said?. Ok let’s pull some machine guns from an old Hurricane just to satisfy you.
Now try a moving target and deflection shooting. They make it look easy with stationary targets and stationery firing. And while they're at it, have someone shooting 20 mm cannon back at them
The title its click bait I was expecting brens brownings designs it could been better titled ammomution used in that battle and instead of a Me109 silhouette they should put a Toyota tactical one.
GPMG's are a blast to fire! The aftermath, however, of picking up the brass and links, and then cleaning the weapons, not so much... haha
Well, what is the conclusion out of this for the present and future challenges in our world?