You’re right, that’s why PAs do the job of PAs by being mid level providers and not doctors that people keep trying to say that they’re trying to be lol
Im currently a student radiotherapist and i am interested in studying to be PA when I graduate and I'm not sure how to feel as I think it would be a good career for me, medicine is a very inaccessible career for many people, especially postgrduate study, if u arent rich its almost impossible to achieve. But i also don't want to go into a career where i am stigmatised and looked down on by my peers.
Have you considered ACP roles? As a therapeutic radiographer you have the ability to independently prescribe under the hcpc. Therefore if you gained clinical experience as a RT you could consider applying for an ACP training post. As someone who worked as a diagnostic radiographer for 10yrs then pursued PA id say that having another profession to fall back on in this present climate is essential. Given the uncertainty in terms of the future of the profession and consequently lack of employment and financial security i wouldnt recommend training as a PA atm. Wait a few years. If it stabilises reconsider, if it all implodes then you wont have wasted 2 yrs of stress and 20k on tuition fees.
Hey I’d say go for it if it’s something you truly want to do and attracts you to medicine. There’s no way that they would stop the PA profession when the GMC is now taking over them. I’d say if it is truly what you want to do then now is an excellent time to go for it. From what I’ve read, a lot of PAs like the work/life balance and you can choose any specialty you want to work in. Imagine if you qualified as a PA and then moved abroad to work in the States for example, a PA In Oncology earns $398k of course depending on experience, an AA in the States in just two years after qualifying was on $220k. Doctors on the other hand earn at least double but you can see that the career in itself is rewarding for the average citizen. You never know, as with UK PAs, with time, you may be able to move to the States where you’re more accepted and the potential to earn is significantly higher. Imagine the NHS losing PAs to the States after GMC registration. It would be a plus for UK PAs if they’re not wanted here. I respect all healthcare professions and bullying is disgusting. I wish all PAs the best! You’re only just starting to get recognised so go for it if it’s truly your passion
@@ThePushUKLifestyle yeah it's going to be a real page turner for PAs. Moreso that the government would be on its knees once again complaining about the shortages. 😂😂
Let's face it, the UK is bankrupt, it has a massive population with many diseases, entitled people, and few doctors. Problems will arise, such as this one. I left the UK in 2004, my local doctor had no diagnostic equipment except a blood pressure monitor and a weighing scale. Pathetic. Why don't these people, who clearly earn high salaries, invest in ct scanners and mri scanners?? That way , these high earning people will diagnose the problem early and save lives??? What is the problem with this country?? Everything is run down and Victorian. No wonder there's a huge problem there. Glad i left and certainly will not be returning to re live the nightmare. Imagine visiting a local doctors office and finding a blood pressure monitor and weighing scales only in 21st century UK. To say that a ct scanner is " too expensive " is a poor excuse. Even poorer is to state that a medically trained professional is incapable of using and interpreting the results. Pathetic excuse. There must be training schemes in place where these people can enter the 21st century and learn about how to use any scanner. If these people do not learn then lives are at stake because time is of the essence.
Respectfully thats appropriate equipment. specialist diagnostic equipment that you have suggested require a specialist team. Also very expensive to run its your GPs responsibility to refer you to the appropriate diagnostic pathway.
@malfy8369 it begs the question, these jobs can be done by a trained layperson, these so called doctors should be pushed into hospital work. Why can't they interpret a ct scan?? Are they NOT medically trained?? If not then refer them to COMPULSORY training on ct scans and start diagnosing diseases BEFORE it's too late ...
@@prp3231 All doctors do general training and then specialise in a field. Thats why you're consultants are in the hospitals or specialised clinics. Investigation of diseases are whole disciplines in themselves to do it properly you need specialists in the field.
@@malfy8369 I guess in the UK it is a big deal to buy a ct scanner , even bigger deal to get " medically trained personnel " to study to interpret the result and pass it on to other higher authorities to diagnose the disease and start early treatment.
Sorry can I just ask you whether you have actually gone on the FPA website for Physician Associates to read CRYSTAL CLEARLY their SCOPE OF PRACTICE? Or do you and the other doctors who hate the idea of Physician Associates just create videos to continue to promote hate on the profession that is here to stay. Junior doctors need supervision from their seniors too likewise Physician Associates. You should start by doing a thorough research before spreading further false information to the general public for the sake of speaking up on "patient safety" when there are doctors who have missed diagnoses on similar cases as some PAs who have been dragged down. By the way, the very first title given to PAs was actually Physician ASSOCIATES before it was changed to assistants and BACK TO ASSOCIATES. if you had done a thorough research, you would have known about the name and of course the PA SCOPE OF PRACTICE that has existed since DAY ONE OF THEIR INTRODUCTION IN THE UK 20 PLUS YEARS AGO. I used to believe the information from the doctors against the profession until I read it MYSELF. Stop spreading FALSE/HALF STORIES.
@@Mulberry2000 I mean if I was, I definitely would have a chip on my shoulder with a brain that could study medicine in 2 years and GMC recognition and the flexibility to practice medicine in any specialty. I mean I can see why there is jealousy and scare mongering, however I can also see why other doctors don’t feel threatened by the PA profession because why should they. You don’t have to be a PA to do your own research. I'm just not that gullible to listen to certain doctors who think they're the only ones who can work in medicine.
As a patient here is my take on PAs, they are crap, simple as that, that is from my experience. Sure they are nice people, but when you go in the room with a PA you know they are not as knowledgeable and trained up as Doctor. PAs and medical centres do not tell the patient they are seeing a PA, the latter looks like a doctor and acts like a doctor and when you ask them they give confusing answers. PAs from my experience do not like not been compared to doctors, they give that impression. So not telling a patient they are not seeing a doctor, the medical centres not telling the patient they are not seeing a doctor is damn dangerous. I have mental health issues and i have told PAs i have some problems and it was dismissed. When i told a doctor this morning it was not dismissed. Over 4 weeks ago i developed a serious painful rash all over my body. I do not mix with any one, so i cannot for the life of me know where i got it from. My Doctor said you can get bad rashes from stress, yes i have a lot of stress in my life, depression and money worries does that to you. So like i said i had a serious rash, i was very ill, i could not tell the " doctor" what was wrong with me I just lifted up my t- shirt, it was then i found out to my horror i was seeing a PA. Do not get me wrong she was very nice but extremely lacking, fair play to her she got a doctor to come and see me. When they saw my condition all was shocked, i put it down to stress. So i was given treatment by the doctor and he told me if it i have any problems with the rash come back. About 3 weeks later i went back and said i have a rash and sore between my fingers. I thought the rash was coming back, i saw a PA, this time i knew and she said you need some cream to help remove the sore and the spots to stop the itching. Yes this PA was one of two who saw my previous condition and she assumed it was the same, wrong big time. I went to the doctors this morning and asked the Medical centre not to give me a PA but an actual doctor. I walked into the the room showed him my hand and he said instantly anything between the fingers is assumed to be scabies. So i suffered an extra two weeks +one with a painful hand and it was spreading to my other. I then check my feet and it was on their but i never got any itching down there except on my legs at night but I never though about it. So what's the point of my post? PAs are human beings, but they pretend to be doctors, they do not tell patients they are not doctors, and the medical centre colludes with them. When asked they use obfuscation to confuse the patient, and that can lead to a big life threating problem if one thinks they are ok because after all the pain in the leg is just a sprain not a blood clot. There is no way a MSs is equal to a doctors MD or training just none. I know what a Master level is and how intensive it is. I have a Masters Degree and i did mine in one full year 12 months straight after a honours degree. So in my view PAs are dangerous they are not experienced or knowledgeable, you can tell when you meet them. A doctor because they are trained at a hight standard gives off aura of competence. No i have never thought a female doctor i have met is a nurse. PAs do not have the air or competence but act like they do, as the saying goes a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous - in this case PAs are.
So imagine you did a one year intensive MSc, imagine PAs who do it for TWO INTENSIVE years. Now that’s tough. You say they’re crap but the “crap” PA brought in a doctor as it is their job to consult their senior doctors, now that’s a brilliant PA I’d say. There’s nothing confusing about a PA responding by saying that they are a PA and a qualified one at that. No wonder the GMC is recognising them and wants to bring them under their care too. Lol
@ThePushUKLifestyle I did not do a Msc i did a Masters degree in arts, No PAs do not DO TWO YEARS OF INTENSIVE TRAINING, jog on - intensive is not what you want in these course. Basically it take two years of study to at MSc PA to reach the same level as Masters of Arts degree. My MA could have been done over two years but i opted to be done over a full 12 months. Please note a full 12 months not one academic year of oct to July. Look I am talking from experience do not second guess me i was there and experienced PAs you were not. PAs are crap simple as that, they are no good, simple as that. The supposed so called intensive two years is not that intensive, you will spend some time with theory, and then in hospitals but its done in an academic frame work, within the year. That is why a two year MSc is on the same level as a full time MA in the arts. The MA I did was a full on intensive course in the ancient world, it was solid 12 months of work from Sept - Sept. It was not limited by the academic year. If you think a Two year MSc is superior to a MA in the arts. How do you know? Have you done an academic MA? If not jog on. I had to do a lot of essays/research at postgraduate level and a 15,000 word dissertation. My MA was in the ancient world and i have degree in history as well. The MA was well above degree level and if i wanted to i could do a PHD and my MA would be accepted for it. If you look at the course details for Msc Physicians associate at Manchester University and compare them to to MA in the classics over one year. The MA in the classic is way more intensive I get why its just an academic subject so studying hard is ok, no lives at risk. The PA Msc is not as intensive as its gradually putting people into a role that affects people's lives. MD degrees for Doctors do the same. www.manchester.ac.uk/study/masters/courses/list/12571/msc-physician-associate-studies/course-details/#course-profile www.manchester.ac.uk/study/masters/courses/list/07915/ma-classics-and-ancient-history/course-details/#course-profile
@@Mulberry2000 I understand why you’re trying to convince people that the TWO YEAR INTENSIVE PA MSc degree studying MEDICINE is beneath a ONE YEAR MA degree in history because you write 15000 word essays and the MSc PA write 10,000 including sitting the same OSCEs that medicine degree holders sit but in a shorter amount of time, trained to diagnose and come up with a treatment plan alongside a senior doctor. I mean they’ve definitely done well and I can see why consultants love them. Using your own words, you said I wasn’t there when you experienced crap PAs and that’s how you’re so certain, you forget that there are more than just the one you experienced and are thousands of them out there and for me, I experienced an excellent one treat me and you trust me too that I know because you weren’t there also. Your opinion however is different to the body that regulates doctors who also see something in PAs to give them actual GMC registration numbers, clearly the GMC deem them qualified enough to do THEIR OWN ROLE. It looks like they’re here to stay regardless of what you think. I find it weird that you’re comparing an MA in history to a profession that looks after actual human beings and not history. I mean I get it, they do take histories off patients too but your comparison really is lacking. I don’t feel like jogging on right now but yeah. Not convinced from your point of view. If you’re checking a university website, make sure to compare all unis and not just Manchester as you did with singling out the one PA when there are thousands more for your point of argument. You do realise that there are PAs who also have gone on to complete a PhD and have their title doctor? Proving those who call them unqualified that they too have brains. So just because you think that you could have done a PhD doesn’t mean that the MSc PA is beneath your MA and doesn’t allow PAs to carry on to complete the said PhD that you COULD HAVE done
@@ThePushUKLifestyle Keep trying sherlock. I told you and provide proof the MSc for PA is not intensive, it says on the Manchester University web site that four months is intensive. The simple fact is Msc PA degree need two years to get to the level of a one year Master of Arts Degree. Again proof provide. A MSc in PA is not studying medicine there you go again trying to inflate PA and Msc with doctors. They do not study medicine they study patient care and support doctors BIG DIFFERENCE. PAs should be banned they are no good. I have experienced them many times and the MSc does not cover it, if it did i be the first one say Yeah it does. As for me comparing MA in history to a PA god you are not very bright are you, its still a masters level duh. PAs will not last long doctors are up in arms, and so are patients, i am one of them. It has been reported by Doctors that patients are not told they are seeing a PA, and the medical centres collude with this. that is my experience as well, if you do not like it - do one. There is too much evidence from people and doctors who say PAs are dangerous. Get rid of them as soon as possible. I have been misdiagnosed by a PA many times. For example last year i thought i was seeing a doctor and he look at my leg and said get the hospital quick. My sock has restricted my legs at the ankle. I said to him why should i go? I knew from experience what was happening. I went to the hospital and ALL WAS FINE. Do yourself a favour before debating me read up on the links i have given and some more, your out of your depth here. Do not ignore patients who do not like PAs. "The BMA’s campaigning against the worrying expansion of physician associates and other associate roles comes amid increasing concerns around patient safety, illustrated by several tragic cases, including the death of 30-year-old Emily Chesterton, who died from a blood clot after being repeatedly misdiagnosed by a PA when she thought she had seen a doctor." My experience as well though i did not have a blood clot. www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-launches-legal-action-against-gmc-over-dangerous-blurring-of-lines-between-doctors-and-physician-associates#:~:text=The%20BMA's%20campaigning%20against%20the,repeatedly%20misdiagnosed%20by%20a%20PA "“PAs are not doctors, and we have seen the tragic consequences of what happens when this is not made clear to patients. Everyone has the right to know who the healthcare professional they are seeing is and what they are qualified to do - and crucially, not to do." PAs pretend to be doctors. its a fact. "over 18,000 responses, UK doctors are reporting overwhelming concern about patient safety in the NHS due to the current ways of employing physician associates and anaesthesia associates.87% of doctors who took part said the way AAs and PAs currently work in the NHS was always or sometimes a risk to patient safety. In addition, 86% reported that they felt patients were not aware of the difference between these roles and those of doctors, showing the immense scope for patient confusion about the level of care they are receiving. In a separate survey of the public, 29% of patients said they did not know whether or not they had been seen by a PA." "“If well-defined, associate roles can play an important part in NHS teams, but the Government has refused to give associate roles that definition. Patients deserve to know who is treating them and the standard of care they are going to receive. By blurring the lines and allowing a situation where PAs can act beyond their competence without the public understanding what they are qualified to do, both professions are demeaned and risk losing crucial public trust." My experience as well, you just want to ignore it, typical. www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/new-survey-shows-shocking-scale-of-concern-from-doctors-over-use-of-physician-associates As for your line about the GMC regulating PAs. It is a mistake, a bad one, why because PA can say they have a GMC number and continue to use obfuscation about their roles. So i do not give a fig if the GMC is regulating them. I believe PAs are dangerous and will refuse to see one any more. The are pseudo doctors and the public is unaware of it, this is dangerous. "The British Medical Association (BMA) said it was concerned that a new law allowing the General Medical Council (GMC) to regulate PAs could confuse doctor and PA roles and could risk patient safety." If PAs go back to the original role of just shut up and do they job the are trained for, which is to do basic checks and stop hiding the fact they are not doctors, stop dressing like doctors et al then they can have role. They are not higher than a nurse not even close. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68194718 "One of the primary risks associated with associate physicians is the potential for mistakes to occur due to their limited experience and supervision. These mistakes can range from misdiagnoses and medication errors to procedural complications. In some cases, these errors can have serious consequences for patients, leading to prolonged illness, disability, or even death." www.lblaw.co.uk/knowledge/blog/beware-the-risks-of-associate-physicians-in-the-nhs/ "TWO YEAR INTENSIVE PA MSc degree studying medicine is beneath a ONE YEAR MA degree because you write 15000 word essays". Clearly you do not know what your on about and never studied on a MA course. Arts students can run rights around Bsc degree students et al in the art of debating because they spend 3 years doing it, the same goes for MA students. Post graduates at MA level do not do 15,000 words essays, it called a dissertation. That slip of yours show you do not know the difference between the two. They spend a lot of their time researching on their own, developing ideas to answer a chosen question with a seminar, or essay frame work. Also i had to study Latin as well along with numerous course modals. Again its at post graduate level. I have shown you the list of the MA course content in the link. You have not bothered to look at it. PAs are so lacking in medical knowledge doctors are up in arms about them. A MA in arts is academic, a MSc in sciences is not. The latter needs more time to train for the job hence the two years for a PA. A MA in the arts does not need two years to train for a job lol.
I can very clearly recall the headlines: “UK doctors protest at extension to nurses' prescribing powers” in 2005 “BMA meeting: Doctors vote to limit the number of medical students” in 2008 The PA profession is safe, thriving, and expanding in so many countries, including the US, Canada, Netherlands, New Zealand, Republic of Ireland, India, Israel, Bulgaria, Myanmar, Switzerland, Liberia, Ghana, etc., but in the UK, "they're not safe." PAs are not good, but the thought of their existence keeps me awake at night because they are taking our jobs, training posts, and filling our rotas. The most striking aspect of this orchestrated, dreadful campaign and vile bullying of Physician Associates in the UK was how old-fashioned professional jealousy and protectionism, disguised as "patient safety concern," sparked intense hatred and bitterness towards a comparatively small workforce of less than 5,000 individuals. Isolating and attacking a whole group of healthcare professionals who are doing their best in this manner is disgraceful on many levels, to put it mildly, but the public is not foolish enough to understand that this revolting campaign has all the hallmarks of selfish ambition for PROTECTIONISM disguised as "patient safety concern." The Physician Associate (PA) is: “a new healthcare professional who, while not a doctor, works to the medical model, with the attitudes, skills and knowledge base to deliver holistic care and treatment within the general medical and/or general practice team under defined levels of supervision.” (DOH, 2006). Another country where this protectionism is in full play in 2024 is: “South Korean doctors strike in protest of plans to add more physicians." “The junior doctors are protesting the government's plans to train more physicians." (BBC News, February 20, 2024). Ever heard of Tiny Island Syndrome? References: Cole A., (2008). BMA meeting: Doctors vote to limit number of medical students. BMJ. 337:a748 Day M., (2005). UK doctors protest at extension to nurses' prescribing powers. BMJ. 331(7526): 1159. Department of Health. The competence and curriculum framework for physician assistants. London: Stationery Office; 2006. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4139317 (Accessed 30 May 2024)
PAs are not safe I am a patient and i have experienced many of them. If i had not a lot of heath problems and just went to my medical centre now and then. I would not know who was a Doctor or a PA till i got in the same room with them. Now i know their faces so i can avoid them when given a appointment.
I’m sorry but who are you? Because you’re BRILLIANT!!! Please spread this so that the scare mongering and bullying of other health care profession can finally stop. Healthcare is not for one profession alone, no one profession can do it on its own. It’s an MDT approach if some doctors have forgotten. But of course it’s playing the “patient safety card” when the bullying is actually putting patient safety at risk
The real danger is the lack of a cohesive and properly funded workforce. This divide that’s being created between doctors and those that are employed to support them and improve the workings of the healthcare system is going to cause more harm than good. It’s going to cause further public insecurity and the demonisation of the healthcare system. PA’s are not doctors. They are there to support with organising diagnostic testing and then feeding back treatment protocols, developed as part of a wider healthcare team including doctors. To pin the blame onto one role is totally unacceptable. The name Physician Associate literally means by definition someone working under the supervision of a Physician with limited responsibilities. As more senior members of the healthcare system doctors have a duty to ensure collaboration and coherence within the system. Stop creating a divide and start working together to improve the healthcare system. Stop blaming. Try to make improvements. The patients care should be your priority and finding solutions on how to make this better for them is the most important thing. Doctors cannot work alone. They need support.
why is patient safety being flagged up time and time again. if you think about it PAs are discussing all their cases with reg / consultant and not making independent decision. By your faulty logic, if you give a very junior FY1/FY2 an extremely complex to manage ON THEIR OWN without a senior input, the patient is safe and patient safety uncompromised by default just because they are doctors and they went to medical school? DONT MAKE ME LAUGH. by your faulty logic, FY2 are baby doctors and even if they make a mistake its okay because they will LEARN as as they go along and with years will gather more knowledge and experience. but if a PA makes a mistake they are incomptent, they are unsafe and all the negative shit. Can i point out what the biggest flaw in your logic is (and all the other doctor sharing your view) it is that you very ignorantly think PA's learning is capped at PA school whereas med students continue to learn and grow after med school and you are unable to comprehend the fact that PAs continue learn after PA school just like medical students. also people thinking 3000 odd PAs taking away training opportunities from >300,000 doctors- gotta take the L.
What utter bollocks. First of all, there are numerous instances in primary and secondary care where it is known that PAs are working independently and therefore unsafely. Second, there are again many documented instances where PAs have been taking training opportunities away from doctors. Theatre lists, endoscopy lists etc. What is the point of a PA being scrubbed up and assisting? Zero long term benefit. There are plans to increase numbers of these unregulated and undefined roles. There are PA roles being advertised at registrar level. It's beggars belief you can compare a doctor who has completed 5 years of medical two, two years foundation training and completed speciality membership exams with a physician ASSISTANT. The role of a PA is to write down ward round notes, basic ward jobs, chase results. They are instead being used to replace doctors in an completely unsafe manner. I am advising everyone I know who has to see a health professional to ask, if they are seeing a doctor or a PA and make sure that they are seen by a doctor. I would trust a 4th year medical student more than PA when it comes to clinical judgement.
@@MrCheeseify1 here we go another disgruntled utterly ignorant medic affected by herd mentality. lets address each points you have raised shall we. "numerous instances in primary and secondary care where it is known that PAs are working independently and therefore unsafely". whats the source? where is the evidence? social media? and by numerous, how many ? do yo have an acctual number or just what read on social media? if PAs are working independently than those PAs are likely the ones who have been in the same GP practice for a long time >3-5yrs. they probably know the local demographic quite well. and their supervising GP / consultant trusts them as they have demonstrated that competency whilst closely working years under them. so what's wrong with that? why are you undermining experienced PAs? ?? "Second, there are again many documented instances where PAs have been taking training opportunities away from doctors. Theatre lists, endoscopy lists etc" there are 3000 odd practicing PA in the entire country and about 350,000 doctors. the ratio is. like 1PA : 1000doctors. ED is probably the only speciality that hires PAs in relatively high numbers, we're talking 7-8. other speciality like haem, neuro, cardio, derm probably hire 1 or 2 PAs at max. and you are telling taking some time to train a comparatively much much small workforce is taking away training opportunities??? make it make sense. again m8 you are not thinking clearly, in fact you are not using your brain at all. there is national. you gave example of endoscopy list. google it m8 search "national shortage of endoscopists" or "capacity crisis" and see that and slap your face before you sprout another BS without thinking and for being severely affected by herd mentality. "There are plans to increase numbers of these unregulated and undefined roles." GMC will regulate PAs and regulation will come. so that PAs can also be held accountatble for their own clinical practice so be reassured. "It's beggars belief you can compare a doctor who has completed 5 years of medical two, two years foundation training and completed speciality membership exams with a physician ASSISTANT." so you went to medical school. So fucking what? In this day and age of internet, digital media advanced technology, where knowledge and knowledgeable teachers are available everywhere on a touch of a finger tip why is your thinking still stuck and unevolved? why do you think that learning only happens in 4 walls of some elite institution? when PAs and med students have access to same resources, same books, same online sources like geeky medics, osmosis etc. what there stopping PAs from accumulating same wealth of knowledge? tell me please? open you mind and think. cos clearly you are not thinking. or you are telling me that there is a secret book of medicine only avilable to med student on MBBS course that bestows upon you the knowledge to make 100% accurate diagnosis. some kind of magical portion from narnia only available to med student who go med school. 💀💀 LMAOOOOOOO. what an utterly hilarious thing to say. how utterly ridiculous. "They are instead being used to replace doctors in an completely unsafe manner" how? in what situation? give examples. don;t just sprout BS. "I would trust a 4th year medical student more than PA when it comes to clinical judgement" well that's your call. that's alright. keep ignorantly sticking to your ignorant beliefs fulled by herd mentality. GOOD BYE.
@@MrCheeseify1 I think junior doctors are treated unfairly and 100% need to have pay restoration. I can appreciate why there is so much frustration however I do not believe all these long-standing issues such as medical training opportunities, pay is due to the PA role. I think alot of anger has been misdirected at PA's who have chosen the profession, to help and improve patient outcomes. I don't think PA's and Dr's are comparable they are different roles, which are both valuable and have a contribute to make. I think regulation is a much needed and long-waited step forward. I have seen several examples on placements, where when there is adequate supervision, PA's are contributing significantly to the medical team. E.g in AMU each case is discussed with a registrar, although the role is different, as a PA gains more experience especially within a certain specialty or GP setting, they continue to learn and develop and become a valuable part of the MDT. As the literature indicates there is no evidence to suggest that PA's are unsafe, they are trained to recognise where they need to seek support. Also, a large majority of Dr's have actually never worked with a PA - there are alot of misconceptions around the role. I agree that there should be clearly defined guidelines for supervision - especially newly qualified PA's. In GP i have seen PA's taht have been trained to diagnoses and treat common conditions - the GP's in the practice were grateful to the PA's and they had an open door policy for any queries - they said they had never experienced any safety concerns for PA's working in practice for over 10years. Dr's need to be treated better by the health care system - while I think valid points should be raised and debated. Putting PA's down based on education and comparing education to a Dr does not help anyone.
@@Sonia-ig9fj What value can a PA offer that a doctor cannot? What do they bring to the MDT that a doctor is unable to bring? The role is nothing more than a political tool to undermine the healthcare system even further. If we take primary care as an example, why are PAs needed in this setting? Why not have more GP positions? Where they don't even need to have an open door policy to discuss patients because they are actually qualified to to their job. We have GPs struggling to find jobs currently. Absolve the current PA role and direct all funding towards more training positions and roles for a better qualified, more knowledgeable actual physician and it will lead to better healthcare in the country. Current use of PAs is unsafe.
In order to progress to core training or registrar level rigorous written exams, OSCEs/PACES are required. Never mind research publications, courses and audits etc. However there are numerous reports of PAs being unsupervised, “performing” the role of registrars and even performing surgical procedures. Where is the rigour in their training? There is none! The whole situation is a shambles. The rationale behind the PA role was to perform simple medical tasks to reduce workload for doctors (eg admin, bloods) but instead we are seeing horrendous scope creep and erosion of training for doctors. PAs are a VALUABLE asset to the mdt when they are utilised safely and correctly. Currently this is not the case for some (not all) PAs. This is not just a problem for PAs. It’s a problem for a lot of MAPs. I feel bad for MAPs who are being put in these positions and who are being sold the fantasy of becoming “pseudo doctors” by universities. If an MAP disagrees with that patient safety is being compromised then that in itself is incredibly worrying and the dunning kruger effect has truely taken ahold. I don’t mean to bash MAPs at all but we need regulations to define their role. If you want scope expansion then please go to medical school. I don’t think you truly understand the rigour of just basic medical training. It is absolutely necessary to practice medicine!
We just don't want PAs. They always need to be supervised. which creates extra work. And can be used to drag down physicians salaries. Only clinic management profits form employing PAs instead of using real doctors.
They do not always need to be supervised - dependent on the settings newly qualified PA's have to be closely supervised similarly to an FY1. However, as a PA gains more experience they are able to work more autonomously - a PA working in the same department for 5+ years will not require the same supervision. I don't agree that they create extra work - I have have seen examples in AMU/ GP where they considerably help to reduce the workload safety and are valued by the Dr's in the team. PA's are a small profession compared to Dr's there are currently only 3250 PA's in the UK and 376,000 Dr's - PA's are not a replacement for Dr;s they are a supplementary role, similarly to specialised nurse practioners who runs asthma clinic - but simply just through the numbers the idea that they are a replacement for Dr's have bee overexaggerated and untrue.
I have the pleasure to work alongside 10 fantastic physician associates. Because PA's stay in one area they are able to provide a high level of care and can support jr DR and nursing staff with their knowledge and skills. Please stop this PA witch hunt, Dear doctors... they are not after your job...
@@woutervk very well said. Since when did having extra health care professionals to work as part of an MDT create further work for doctors. Glad you work with TEN PAs hopefully more are trained to carry on providing excellent care! I find that senior doctors really like working with them and are not about the pay. The pay problem lies with the government and not PAs.
In a nutshell, PAs should not and must not be allowed to do the jobs of doctors.
You’re right, that’s why PAs do the job of PAs by being mid level providers and not doctors that people keep trying to say that they’re trying to be lol
I like the way you have included both sides of the argument - I think it is important to be respectful to both professions and the value they bring :)
Thank you, I agree! I'm glad you noticed, I really tried to be balanced
@@TriyaAnushka ❤
They are dangerous left on their own and with medical centres backing
Im currently a student radiotherapist and i am interested in studying to be PA when I graduate and I'm not sure how to feel as I think it would be a good career for me, medicine is a very inaccessible career for many people, especially postgrduate study, if u arent rich its almost impossible to achieve. But i also don't want to go into a career where i am stigmatised and looked down on by my peers.
Then you no well to avoid the PA role😂
Have you considered ACP roles? As a therapeutic radiographer you have the ability to independently prescribe under the hcpc. Therefore if you gained clinical experience as a RT you could consider applying for an ACP training post. As someone who worked as a diagnostic radiographer for 10yrs then pursued PA id say that having another profession to fall back on in this present climate is essential. Given the uncertainty in terms of the future of the profession and consequently lack of employment and financial security i wouldnt recommend training as a PA atm. Wait a few years. If it stabilises reconsider, if it all implodes then you wont have wasted 2 yrs of stress and 20k on tuition fees.
@@tommardel9792 better steer clear of PA roles then. The current lawsuit filled by BMA against GMC UK is just the beginning
Hey I’d say go for it if it’s something you truly want to do and attracts you to medicine. There’s no way that they would stop the PA profession when the GMC is now taking over them. I’d say if it is truly what you want to do then now is an excellent time to go for it. From what I’ve read, a lot of PAs like the work/life balance and you can choose any specialty you want to work in. Imagine if you qualified as a PA and then moved abroad to work in the States for example, a PA In Oncology earns $398k of course depending on experience, an AA in the States in just two years after qualifying was on $220k. Doctors on the other hand earn at least double but you can see that the career in itself is rewarding for the average citizen. You never know, as with UK PAs, with time, you may be able to move to the States where you’re more accepted and the potential to earn is significantly higher. Imagine the NHS losing PAs to the States after GMC registration. It would be a plus for UK PAs if they’re not wanted here. I respect all healthcare professions and bullying is disgusting. I wish all PAs the best! You’re only just starting to get recognised so go for it if it’s truly your passion
@@ThePushUKLifestyle yeah it's going to be a real page turner for PAs. Moreso that the government would be on its knees once again complaining about the shortages. 😂😂
Let's face it, the UK is bankrupt, it has a massive population with many diseases, entitled people, and few doctors. Problems will arise, such as this one. I left the UK in 2004, my local doctor had no diagnostic equipment except a blood pressure monitor and a weighing scale. Pathetic. Why don't these people, who clearly earn high salaries, invest in ct scanners and mri scanners?? That way , these high earning people will diagnose the problem early and save lives??? What is the problem with this country?? Everything is run down and Victorian. No wonder there's a huge problem there. Glad i left and certainly will not be returning to re live the nightmare.
Imagine visiting a local doctors office and finding a blood pressure monitor and weighing scales only in 21st century UK.
To say that a ct scanner is " too expensive " is a poor excuse. Even poorer is to state that a medically trained professional is incapable of using and interpreting the results. Pathetic excuse. There must be training schemes in place where these people can enter the 21st century and learn about how to use any scanner. If these people do not learn then lives are at stake because time is of the essence.
Respectfully thats appropriate equipment. specialist diagnostic equipment that you have suggested require a specialist team. Also very expensive to run its your GPs responsibility to refer you to the appropriate diagnostic pathway.
@malfy8369 it begs the question, these jobs can be done by a trained layperson, these so called doctors should be pushed into hospital work. Why can't they interpret a ct scan?? Are they NOT medically trained?? If not then refer them to COMPULSORY training on ct scans and start diagnosing diseases BEFORE it's too late ...
@@prp3231 All doctors do general training and then specialise in a field. Thats why you're consultants are in the hospitals or specialised clinics. Investigation of diseases are whole disciplines in themselves to do it properly you need specialists in the field.
@malfy8369 oh well, the more the treatment is delayed, the higher the risk of death.
@@malfy8369 I guess in the UK it is a big deal to buy a ct scanner , even bigger deal to get " medically trained personnel " to study to interpret the result and pass it on to other higher authorities to diagnose the disease and start early treatment.
Sorry can I just ask you whether you have actually gone on the FPA website for Physician Associates to read CRYSTAL CLEARLY their SCOPE OF PRACTICE? Or do you and the other doctors who hate the idea of Physician Associates just create videos to continue to promote hate on the profession that is here to stay. Junior doctors need supervision from their seniors too likewise Physician Associates. You should start by doing a thorough research before spreading further false information to the general public for the sake of speaking up on "patient safety" when there are doctors who have missed diagnoses on similar cases as some PAs who have been dragged down.
By the way, the very first title given to PAs was actually Physician ASSOCIATES before it was changed to assistants and BACK TO ASSOCIATES. if you had done a thorough research, you would have known about the name and of course the PA SCOPE OF PRACTICE that has existed since DAY ONE OF THEIR INTRODUCTION IN THE UK 20 PLUS YEARS AGO.
I used to believe the information from the doctors against the profession until I read it MYSELF. Stop spreading FALSE/HALF STORIES.
Oh look a PA with a Chip on their shoulder
@@Mulberry2000 I mean if I was, I definitely would have a chip on my shoulder with a brain that could study medicine in 2 years and GMC recognition and the flexibility to practice medicine in any specialty. I mean I can see why there is jealousy and scare mongering, however I can also see why other doctors don’t feel threatened by the PA profession because why should they. You don’t have to be a PA to do your own research. I'm just not that gullible to listen to certain doctors who think they're the only ones who can work in medicine.
As a patient here is my take on PAs, they are crap, simple as that, that is from my experience. Sure they are nice people, but when you go in the room with a PA you know they are not as knowledgeable and trained up as Doctor. PAs and medical centres do not tell the patient they are seeing a PA, the latter looks like a doctor and acts like a doctor and when you ask them they give confusing answers. PAs from my experience do not like not been compared to doctors, they give that impression. So not telling a patient they are not seeing a doctor, the medical centres not telling the patient they are not seeing a doctor is damn dangerous. I have mental health issues and i have told PAs i have some problems and it was dismissed. When i told a doctor this morning it was not dismissed. Over 4 weeks ago i developed a serious painful rash all over my body. I do not mix with any one, so i cannot for the life of me know where i got it from. My Doctor said you can get bad rashes from stress, yes i have a lot of stress in my life, depression and money worries does that to you. So like i said i had a serious rash, i was very ill, i could not tell the " doctor" what was wrong with me I just lifted up my t- shirt, it was then i found out to my horror i was seeing a PA.
Do not get me wrong she was very nice but extremely lacking, fair play to her she got a doctor to come and see me. When they saw my condition all was shocked, i put it down to stress. So i was given treatment by the doctor and he told me if it i have any problems with the rash come back. About 3 weeks later i went back and said i have a rash and sore between my fingers. I thought the rash was coming back, i saw a PA, this time i knew and she said you need some cream to help remove the sore and the spots to stop the itching. Yes this PA was one of two who saw my previous condition and she assumed it was the same, wrong big time. I went to the doctors this morning and asked the Medical centre not to give me a PA but an actual doctor. I walked into the the room showed him my hand and he said instantly anything between the fingers is assumed to be scabies. So i suffered an extra two weeks +one with a painful hand and it was spreading to my other. I then check my feet and it was on their but i never got any itching down there except on my legs at night but I never though about it.
So what's the point of my post? PAs are human beings, but they pretend to be doctors, they do not tell patients they are not doctors, and the medical centre colludes with them. When asked they use obfuscation to confuse the patient, and that can lead to a big life threating problem if one thinks they are ok because after all the pain in the leg is just a sprain not a blood clot. There is no way a MSs is equal to a doctors MD or training just none. I know what a Master level is and how intensive it is. I have a Masters Degree and i did mine in one full year 12 months straight after a honours degree. So in my view PAs are dangerous they are not experienced or knowledgeable, you can tell when you meet them. A doctor because they are trained at a hight standard gives off aura of competence. No i have never thought a female doctor i have met is a nurse. PAs do not have the air or competence but act like they do, as the saying goes a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous - in this case PAs are.
So imagine you did a one year intensive MSc, imagine PAs who do it for TWO INTENSIVE years. Now that’s tough.
You say they’re crap but the “crap” PA brought in a doctor as it is their job to consult their senior doctors, now that’s a brilliant PA I’d say. There’s nothing confusing about a PA responding by saying that they are a PA and a qualified one at that. No wonder the GMC is recognising them and wants to bring them under their care too. Lol
@ThePushUKLifestyle I did not do a Msc i did a Masters degree in arts, No PAs do not DO TWO YEARS OF INTENSIVE TRAINING, jog on - intensive is not what you want in these course. Basically it take two years of study to at MSc PA to reach the same level as Masters of Arts degree. My MA could have been done over two years but i opted to be done over a full 12 months. Please note a full 12 months not one academic year of oct to July. Look I am talking from experience do not second guess me i was there and experienced PAs you were not. PAs are crap simple as that, they are no good, simple as that. The supposed so called intensive two years is not that intensive, you will spend some time with theory, and then in hospitals but its done in an academic frame work, within the year. That is why a two year MSc is on the same level as a full time MA in the arts. The MA I did was a full on intensive course in the ancient world, it was solid 12 months of work from Sept - Sept. It was not limited by the academic year. If you think a Two year MSc is superior to a MA in the arts. How do you know? Have you done an academic MA? If not jog on.
I had to do a lot of essays/research at postgraduate level and a 15,000 word dissertation. My MA was in the ancient world and i have degree in history as well. The MA was well above degree level and if i wanted to i could do a PHD and my MA would be accepted for it. If you look at the course details for Msc Physicians associate at Manchester University and compare them to to MA in the classics over one year. The MA in the classic is way more intensive I get why its just an academic subject so studying hard is ok, no lives at risk. The PA Msc is not as intensive as its gradually putting people into a role that affects people's lives. MD degrees for Doctors do the same. www.manchester.ac.uk/study/masters/courses/list/12571/msc-physician-associate-studies/course-details/#course-profile
www.manchester.ac.uk/study/masters/courses/list/07915/ma-classics-and-ancient-history/course-details/#course-profile
@@Mulberry2000 I understand why you’re trying to convince people that the TWO YEAR INTENSIVE PA MSc degree studying MEDICINE is beneath a ONE YEAR MA degree in history because you write 15000 word essays and the MSc PA write 10,000 including sitting the same OSCEs that medicine degree holders sit but in a shorter amount of time, trained to diagnose and come up with a treatment plan alongside a senior doctor. I mean they’ve definitely done well and I can see why consultants love them.
Using your own words, you said I wasn’t there when you experienced crap PAs and that’s how you’re so certain, you forget that there are more than just the one you experienced and are thousands of them out there and for me, I experienced an excellent one treat me and you trust me too that I know because you weren’t there also. Your opinion however is different to the body that regulates doctors who also see something in PAs to give them actual GMC registration numbers, clearly the GMC deem them qualified enough to do THEIR OWN ROLE. It looks like they’re here to stay regardless of what you think. I find it weird that you’re comparing an MA in history to a profession that looks after actual human beings and not history. I mean I get it, they do take histories off patients too but your comparison really is lacking. I don’t feel like jogging on right now but yeah. Not convinced from your point of view. If you’re checking a university website, make sure to compare all unis and not just Manchester as you did with singling out the one PA when there are thousands more for your point of argument.
You do realise that there are PAs who also have gone on to complete a PhD and have their title doctor? Proving those who call them unqualified that they too have brains. So just because you think that you could have done a PhD doesn’t mean that the MSc PA is beneath your MA and doesn’t allow PAs to carry on to complete the said PhD that you COULD HAVE done
@@ThePushUKLifestyle Keep trying sherlock. I told you and provide proof the MSc for PA is not intensive, it says on the Manchester University web site that four months is intensive. The simple fact is Msc PA degree need two years to get to the level of a one year Master of Arts Degree. Again proof provide. A MSc in PA is not studying medicine there you go again trying to inflate PA and Msc with doctors. They do not study medicine they study patient care and support doctors BIG DIFFERENCE. PAs should be banned they are no good. I have experienced them many times and the MSc does not cover it, if it did i be the first one say Yeah it does. As for me comparing MA in history to a PA god you are not very bright are you, its still a masters level duh. PAs will not last long doctors are up in arms, and so are patients, i am one of them. It has been reported by Doctors that patients are not told they are seeing a PA, and the medical centres collude with this. that is my experience as well, if you do not like it - do one. There is too much evidence from people and doctors who say PAs are dangerous. Get rid of them as soon as possible. I have been misdiagnosed by a PA many times. For example last year i thought i was seeing a doctor and he look at my leg and said get the hospital quick. My sock has restricted my legs at the ankle. I said to him why should i go? I knew from experience what was happening. I went to the hospital and ALL WAS FINE. Do yourself a favour before debating me read up on the links i have given and some more, your out of your depth here. Do not ignore patients who do not like PAs.
"The BMA’s campaigning against the worrying expansion of physician associates and other associate roles comes amid increasing concerns around patient safety, illustrated by several tragic cases, including the death of 30-year-old Emily Chesterton, who died from a blood clot after being repeatedly misdiagnosed by a PA when she thought she had seen a doctor." My experience as well though i did not have a blood clot.
www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-launches-legal-action-against-gmc-over-dangerous-blurring-of-lines-between-doctors-and-physician-associates#:~:text=The%20BMA's%20campaigning%20against%20the,repeatedly%20misdiagnosed%20by%20a%20PA
"“PAs are not doctors, and we have seen the tragic consequences of what happens when this is not made clear to patients. Everyone has the right to know who the healthcare professional they are seeing is and what they are qualified to do - and crucially, not to do." PAs pretend to be doctors. its a fact.
"over 18,000 responses, UK doctors are reporting overwhelming concern about patient safety in the NHS due to the current ways of employing physician associates and anaesthesia associates.87% of doctors who took part said the way AAs and PAs currently work in the NHS was always or sometimes a risk to patient safety. In addition, 86% reported that they felt patients were not aware of the difference between these roles and those of doctors, showing the immense scope for patient confusion about the level of care they are receiving. In a separate survey of the public, 29% of patients said they did not know whether or not they had been seen by a PA."
"“If well-defined, associate roles can play an important part in NHS teams, but the Government has refused to give associate roles that definition. Patients deserve to know who is treating them and the standard of care they are going to receive. By blurring the lines and allowing a situation where PAs can act beyond their competence without the public understanding what they are qualified to do, both professions are demeaned and risk losing crucial public trust." My experience as well, you just want to ignore it, typical.
www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/new-survey-shows-shocking-scale-of-concern-from-doctors-over-use-of-physician-associates
As for your line about the GMC regulating PAs. It is a mistake, a bad one, why because PA can say they have a GMC number and continue to use obfuscation about their roles. So i do not give a fig if the GMC is regulating them. I believe PAs are dangerous and will refuse to see one any more. The are pseudo doctors and the public is unaware of it, this is dangerous.
"The British Medical Association (BMA) said it was concerned that a new law allowing the General Medical Council (GMC) to regulate PAs could confuse doctor and PA roles and could risk patient safety."
If PAs go back to the original role of just shut up and do they job the are trained for, which is to do basic checks and stop hiding the fact they are not doctors, stop dressing like doctors et al then they can have role. They are not higher than a nurse not even close.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68194718
"One of the primary risks associated with associate physicians is the potential for mistakes to occur due to their limited experience and supervision. These mistakes can range from misdiagnoses and medication errors to procedural complications. In some cases, these errors can have serious consequences for patients, leading to prolonged illness, disability, or even death."
www.lblaw.co.uk/knowledge/blog/beware-the-risks-of-associate-physicians-in-the-nhs/
"TWO YEAR INTENSIVE PA MSc degree studying medicine is beneath a ONE YEAR MA degree because you write 15000 word essays". Clearly you do not know what your on about and never studied on a MA course. Arts students can run rights around Bsc degree students et al in the art of debating because they spend 3 years doing it, the same goes for MA students. Post graduates at MA level do not do 15,000 words essays, it called a dissertation. That slip of yours show you do not know the difference between the two. They spend a lot of their time researching on their own, developing ideas to answer a chosen question with a seminar, or essay frame work. Also i had to study Latin as well along with numerous course modals. Again its at post graduate level. I have shown you the list of the MA course content in the link. You have not bothered to look at it.
PAs are so lacking in medical knowledge doctors are up in arms about them. A MA in arts is academic, a MSc in sciences is not. The latter needs more time to train for the job hence the two years for a PA. A MA in the arts does not need two years to train for a job lol.
PA's should be nowhere near patients, they are way too under qualified
I can very clearly recall the headlines:
“UK doctors protest at extension to nurses' prescribing powers” in 2005
“BMA meeting: Doctors vote to limit the number of medical students” in 2008
The PA profession is safe, thriving, and expanding in so many countries, including the US, Canada, Netherlands, New Zealand, Republic of Ireland, India, Israel, Bulgaria, Myanmar, Switzerland, Liberia, Ghana, etc., but in the UK, "they're not safe." PAs are not good, but the thought of their existence keeps me awake at night because they are taking our jobs, training posts, and filling our rotas. The most striking aspect of this orchestrated, dreadful campaign and vile bullying of Physician Associates in the UK was how old-fashioned professional jealousy and protectionism, disguised as "patient safety concern," sparked intense hatred and bitterness towards a comparatively small workforce of less than 5,000 individuals. Isolating and attacking a whole group of healthcare professionals who are doing their best in this manner is disgraceful on many levels, to put it mildly, but the public is not foolish enough to understand that this revolting campaign has all the hallmarks of selfish ambition for PROTECTIONISM disguised as "patient safety concern."
The Physician Associate (PA) is: “a new healthcare professional who, while not a doctor, works to the medical model, with the attitudes, skills and knowledge base to deliver holistic care and treatment within the general medical and/or general practice team under defined levels of supervision.” (DOH, 2006).
Another country where this protectionism is in full play in 2024 is:
“South Korean doctors strike in protest of plans to add more physicians." “The junior doctors are protesting the government's plans to train more physicians." (BBC News, February 20, 2024). Ever heard of Tiny Island Syndrome?
References:
Cole A., (2008). BMA meeting: Doctors vote to limit number of medical students. BMJ. 337:a748
Day M., (2005). UK doctors protest at extension to nurses' prescribing powers. BMJ. 331(7526): 1159.
Department of Health. The competence and curriculum framework for physician assistants. London: Stationery Office; 2006. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4139317 (Accessed 30 May 2024)
PAs are not safe I am a patient and i have experienced many of them. If i had not a lot of heath problems and just went to my medical centre now and then. I would not know who was a Doctor or a PA till i got in the same room with them. Now i know their faces so i can avoid them when given a appointment.
I’m sorry but who are you? Because you’re BRILLIANT!!! Please spread this so that the scare mongering and bullying of other health care profession can finally stop. Healthcare is not for one profession alone, no one profession can do it on its own. It’s an MDT approach if some doctors have forgotten. But of course it’s playing the “patient safety card” when the bullying is actually putting patient safety at risk
PA's should not be allowed anywhere near patients. A lot of patients have died off late because of PA incompetence
The real danger is the lack of a cohesive and properly funded workforce. This divide that’s being created between doctors and those that are employed to support them and improve the workings of the healthcare system is going to cause more harm than good. It’s going to cause further public insecurity and the demonisation of the healthcare system. PA’s are not doctors. They are there to support with organising diagnostic testing and then feeding back treatment protocols, developed as part of a wider healthcare team including doctors. To pin the blame onto one role is totally unacceptable. The name Physician Associate literally means by definition someone working under the supervision of a Physician with limited responsibilities. As more senior members of the healthcare system doctors have a duty to ensure collaboration and coherence within the system. Stop creating a divide and start working together to improve the healthcare system. Stop blaming. Try to make improvements. The patients care should be your priority and finding solutions on how to make this better for them is the most important thing. Doctors cannot work alone. They need support.
why is patient safety being flagged up time and time again. if you think about it PAs are discussing all their cases with reg / consultant and not making independent decision.
By your faulty logic, if you give a very junior FY1/FY2 an extremely complex to manage ON THEIR OWN without a senior input, the patient is safe and patient safety uncompromised by default just because they are doctors and they went to medical school? DONT MAKE ME LAUGH.
by your faulty logic, FY2 are baby doctors and even if they make a mistake its okay because they will LEARN as as they go along and with years will gather more knowledge and experience. but if a PA makes a mistake they are incomptent, they are unsafe and all the negative shit.
Can i point out what the biggest flaw in your logic is (and all the other doctor sharing your view) it is that you very ignorantly think PA's learning is capped at PA school whereas med students continue to learn and grow after med school and you are unable to comprehend the fact that PAs continue learn after PA school just like medical students.
also people thinking 3000 odd PAs taking away training opportunities from >300,000 doctors- gotta take the L.
What utter bollocks. First of all, there are numerous instances in primary and secondary care where it is known that PAs are working independently and therefore unsafely. Second, there are again many documented instances where PAs have been taking training opportunities away from doctors. Theatre lists, endoscopy lists etc. What is the point of a PA being scrubbed up and assisting? Zero long term benefit. There are plans to increase numbers of these unregulated and undefined roles. There are PA roles being advertised at registrar level. It's beggars belief you can compare a doctor who has completed 5 years of medical two, two years foundation training and completed speciality membership exams with a physician ASSISTANT. The role of a PA is to write down ward round notes, basic ward jobs, chase results. They are instead being used to replace doctors in an completely unsafe manner. I am advising everyone I know who has to see a health professional to ask, if they are seeing a doctor or a PA and make sure that they are seen by a doctor. I would trust a 4th year medical student more than PA when it comes to clinical judgement.
@@MrCheeseify1 here we go another disgruntled utterly ignorant medic affected by herd mentality.
lets address each points you have raised shall we.
"numerous instances in primary and secondary care where it is known that PAs are working independently and therefore unsafely".
whats the source? where is the evidence? social media? and by numerous, how many ? do yo have an acctual number or just what read on social media?
if PAs are working independently than those PAs are likely the ones who have been in the same GP practice for a long time >3-5yrs. they probably know the local demographic quite well. and their supervising GP / consultant trusts them as they have demonstrated that competency whilst closely working years under them. so what's wrong with that? why are you undermining experienced PAs? ??
"Second, there are again many documented instances where PAs have been taking training opportunities away from doctors. Theatre lists, endoscopy lists etc"
there are 3000 odd practicing PA in the entire country and about 350,000 doctors. the ratio is. like 1PA : 1000doctors.
ED is probably the only speciality that hires PAs in relatively high numbers, we're talking 7-8. other speciality like haem, neuro, cardio, derm probably hire 1 or 2 PAs at max. and you are telling taking some time to train a comparatively much much small workforce is taking away training opportunities??? make it make sense. again m8 you are not thinking clearly, in fact you are not using your brain at all.
there is national.
you gave example of endoscopy list. google it m8 search "national shortage of endoscopists" or "capacity crisis" and see that and slap your face before you sprout another BS without thinking and for being severely affected by herd mentality.
"There are plans to increase numbers of these unregulated and undefined roles."
GMC will regulate PAs and regulation will come. so that PAs can also be held accountatble for their own clinical practice so be reassured.
"It's beggars belief you can compare a doctor who has completed 5 years of medical two, two years foundation training and completed speciality membership exams with a physician ASSISTANT." so you went to medical school. So fucking what? In this day and age of internet, digital media advanced technology, where knowledge and knowledgeable teachers are available everywhere on a touch of a finger tip why is your thinking still stuck and unevolved? why do you think that learning only happens in 4 walls of some elite institution? when PAs and med students have access to same resources, same books, same online sources like geeky medics, osmosis etc. what there stopping PAs from accumulating same wealth of knowledge? tell me please? open you mind and think. cos clearly you are not thinking. or you are telling me that there is a secret book of medicine only avilable to med student on MBBS course that bestows upon you the knowledge to make 100% accurate diagnosis. some kind of magical portion from narnia only available to med student who go med school. 💀💀 LMAOOOOOOO. what an utterly hilarious thing to say. how utterly ridiculous.
"They are instead being used to replace doctors in an completely unsafe manner"
how? in what situation? give examples. don;t just sprout BS.
"I would trust a 4th year medical student more than PA when it comes to clinical judgement"
well that's your call. that's alright. keep ignorantly sticking to your ignorant beliefs fulled by herd mentality.
GOOD BYE.
@@MrCheeseify1 I think junior doctors are treated unfairly and 100% need to have pay restoration. I can appreciate why there is so much frustration however I do not believe all these long-standing issues such as medical training opportunities, pay is due to the PA role. I think alot of anger has been misdirected at PA's who have chosen the profession, to help and improve patient outcomes. I don't think PA's and Dr's are comparable they are different roles, which are both valuable and have a contribute to make. I think regulation is a much needed and long-waited step forward.
I have seen several examples on placements, where when there is adequate supervision, PA's are contributing significantly to the medical team. E.g in AMU each case is discussed with a registrar, although the role is different, as a PA gains more experience especially within a certain specialty or GP setting, they continue to learn and develop and become a valuable part of the MDT. As the literature indicates there is no evidence to suggest that PA's are unsafe, they are trained to recognise where they need to seek support. Also, a large majority of Dr's have actually never worked with a PA - there are alot of misconceptions around the role. I agree that there should be clearly defined guidelines for supervision - especially newly qualified PA's. In GP i have seen PA's taht have been trained to diagnoses and treat common conditions - the GP's in the practice were grateful to the PA's and they had an open door policy for any queries - they said they had never experienced any safety concerns for PA's working in practice for over 10years.
Dr's need to be treated better by the health care system - while I think valid points should be raised and debated. Putting PA's down based on education and comparing education to a Dr does not help anyone.
@@Sonia-ig9fj What value can a PA offer that a doctor cannot? What do they bring to the MDT that a doctor is unable to bring? The role is nothing more than a political tool to undermine the healthcare system even further. If we take primary care as an example, why are PAs needed in this setting? Why not have more GP positions? Where they don't even need to have an open door policy to discuss patients because they are actually qualified to to their job. We have GPs struggling to find jobs currently. Absolve the current PA role and direct all funding towards more training positions and roles for a better qualified, more knowledgeable actual physician and it will lead to better healthcare in the country. Current use of PAs is unsafe.
In order to progress to core training or registrar level rigorous written exams, OSCEs/PACES are required. Never mind research publications, courses and audits etc. However there are numerous reports of PAs being unsupervised, “performing” the role of registrars and even performing surgical procedures. Where is the rigour in their training? There is none! The whole situation is a shambles. The rationale behind the PA role was to perform simple medical tasks to reduce workload for doctors (eg admin, bloods) but instead we are seeing horrendous scope creep and erosion of training for doctors. PAs are a VALUABLE asset to the mdt when they are utilised safely and correctly. Currently this is not the case for some (not all) PAs. This is not just a problem for PAs. It’s a problem for a lot of MAPs. I feel bad for MAPs who are being put in these positions and who are being sold the fantasy of becoming “pseudo doctors” by universities. If an MAP disagrees with that patient safety is being compromised then that in itself is incredibly worrying and the dunning kruger effect has truely taken ahold. I don’t mean to bash MAPs at all but we need regulations to define their role. If you want scope expansion then please go to medical school. I don’t think you truly understand the rigour of just basic medical training. It is absolutely necessary to practice medicine!
But the names shouldn't be the ones deciding if they are parallel to a qualified doctor. It's literally going to do more harm than good
Good point!
We just don't want PAs. They always need to be supervised. which creates extra work. And can be used to drag down physicians salaries. Only clinic management profits form employing PAs instead of using real doctors.
They do not always need to be supervised - dependent on the settings newly qualified PA's have to be closely supervised similarly to an FY1. However, as a PA gains more experience they are able to work more autonomously - a PA working in the same department for 5+ years will not require the same supervision. I don't agree that they create extra work - I have have seen examples in AMU/ GP where they considerably help to reduce the workload safety and are valued by the Dr's in the team. PA's are a small profession compared to Dr's there are currently only 3250 PA's in the UK and 376,000 Dr's - PA's are not a replacement for Dr;s they are a supplementary role, similarly to specialised nurse practioners who runs asthma clinic - but simply just through the numbers the idea that they are a replacement for Dr's have bee overexaggerated and untrue.
I have the pleasure to work alongside 10 fantastic physician associates. Because PA's stay in one area they are able to provide a high level of care and can support jr DR and nursing staff with their knowledge and skills.
Please stop this PA witch hunt, Dear doctors... they are not after your job...
@@woutervk Thank you for highlighting this 🙂
@@Sonia-ig9fj Yes they do.
@@woutervk very well said. Since when did having extra health care professionals to work as part of an MDT create further work for doctors. Glad you work with TEN PAs hopefully more are trained to carry on providing excellent care! I find that senior doctors really like working with them and are not about the pay. The pay problem lies with the government and not PAs.