I wish red and white were just the treasure color makers and maybe secondary of blue and black but yes definitely not green. If anything green should be the anti treasure color destroying and gobbling up treasures.
meh, it makes sence from the dnd set becuse the green dragon in that took over an Elf kingdom with a big seeming limitless hoard of treasure but for the most part the rest yeah
Is there any way to crunch the numbers (EDHREC-style) and plot the average number of treasure-based cards per deck against an appropriate time period? That's the kind of data I'd love to hear to put things more under perspective.
I think that rewarding you with "if mana from a treasure was spent to cast this spell..." is a nice incentive to not just stash treasures. But those incentives are few, and yeah, treasures in green feels wrong Edit, 28:04 Dana sneaking an excuse for less basics
My friend group was talking about this as well recently. Kinda thought it was getting shoved down are throats too much nowadays. I thought it would’ve been cooler to have clues in New Capenna instead of treasures since it feels more Noir.
I built an Akiri/Silas Treasures matter deck back in 2020 before they ever printed any green treasure cards and the treasure cards were basically Smothering Tithe and Ixalan cards. I loved how it was my own niche strategy with some payoff without being too powerful. Fast forward to today where it feels like they print more treasure cards than anything else now and it’s affected my deck’s uniqueness. It’s gotten to the point where I have to try and convince people that I made a treasure deck “before it was cool”…
The fact that there are several cards in New Capenna that produces tapped treasures hopefully means that wotc realizes that treasures are becoming a problem.
Interesting idea I just had here. I really like the implementation of treasures entering tapped. Maybe for color pie reasons Red should be getting untapped treasures (spend it now, impulse buy, etc.) and other colors should have to save it by having it enter tapped. As for green... just no.
I like what Dana mentioned towards the end, to me it’s like more I have to now fit these types of cards instead of slots I would have preferred been more towards the flavor or my unique take on the deck. White really should have keep the treasures theme, the whole taxing aspect of white can lead to some awesome cards designs…..
That whole flavor and card design idea makes complete sense to me and sounds great, but I will say I think they've liked the idea of giving white land ramp and probably don't need much more ramp in general unless all the other colors start getting more ramp that would outclass whites currently existing land ramp
@@captaindaddd6055 i just always pictured/would of preferred the idea of treasures in white instead of land ramp cause of cards like Smothering Tithe, it’s a good way for white to “ramp” in the form of treasures/ a taxing effect to keep up with the green decks of the world that now have that artifact that makes lands tap to make treasure, I don’t think that card needed to exist at all in any color.
@@gaymer4rmmeletis I totally agree. I thought old gnawbone was a wild one and I'm surprised they released that. Putting treasures in green just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me
Mayhem Devil is like my favorite card now because of how strong he is when a bunch of treasures are on board. I've used his ping effect for politics too when others have treasures
I think treasures should be rare, and mostly in red (with the exception a creating 8 for 2cmc). But white should be able to create pearls (artifacts that you can tap and sacrifice to create white mana) - same can be done in each color, to a lesser extent (green VERY RARELY can find emeralds hidden in the bark of a tree)
THANK YOU! I can't stand how mono white is the only color that isn't supposed to benefit from resources, even though it is the color of order and civilization! those two things alone should mean White should have the most passive form of generating resources- taxing others to pay for their projects. And about Nature green, it makes more sense if you think of treasure and natural treasures such as gems rather than artificial treasures such as coins.
I'm in agreement. Stash was 100% a mistake. Green already has to much of the color pie and now this? Let's not forget all the token doublers are in green as well...
Having played in ixlan limited treasures made it easier/fun to cast big MV spells in limited. However now there everywhere and its losing its flavor. I use tresures in 4 of my 5 decks (3 of which have green in them). On top out of the decks that run green in them that feels fun/flavorful is Shattergang Brothers with pitiless plunder + Academy manufactor. Side note: I hope we get a white rhystic study that makes clues.
In my mind, there is just a lot of them. I saw JLK on twitter say that all of them should come in tapped. That is the best way to make them perfectly fair.
Less of a runaway storm turn for sure. I like we've seen that for a few cards this set: "tapped Treasure tokens". And that still fits flavor perfectly in my opinion! You gotta hoard your treasure at least one turn before you spend it. Also not sure why green has treasures, considering of anyone they'd think useless shineys are stupid.
I don't think bootleggers stash will be as strong as people are hyping it up to be since green doesn't really have a ton of artifact support, but I do agree that green also doesn't need the help in producting hoards of Mana. It would definitely have been better if it was red or even white. I mean, what were they even thinking?!
This is the first episode of your cast that really pulled me in. Lovely content and thank you for the listen. On topic I do wish more treasure hate would show up. I dont mind the treasures even if they are ridiculously frequent now, but if they give us more collector ouphes (maybe in white hopefully) I think it would add enough of a deckbuilding cost/ consideration to help mitigate the treasure situation.
Goad is a great example here, I am in a similar boat with the Thief of Sanity/Ashiok based effects where I love the "I can play your cards!" thing, but like with Ragavan its super annoying if they make it too good. Its a great fun mechanic, that also can be obnoxious in multiple ways. Least of which being just exiling key pieces from your opponents decks and never casting them so they never get em in their grave or something.
I think what surprises me the most is that they still haven't printed good treasure hate. We need a card that is good on it's own but also hoses treasures. Something like an enchantment with that also has a "At the beginning of your end step each opponent loses life equal to the twice the number of treasure artifacts they control"
It doesn't really play like Brass's Bounty at all, Bounty gets you ahead on mana while Stash is mana banking like Omnath or Kruphix. Green is the appropriate color for the card.
@@Yesnomu It is linked to lands under your control like Brass's Bounty that is why I am comparing the two and saying the card should be a red card I don't understand why it needs to be green
@@atlaswar2425 Green is the only single color it could be. The similarity to Bounty is only superficial, Bounty is a one-shot mana ritual that is expressed through treasure while Stash is a long-term mana bank. Let's say you play both with seven lands: Bounty gives you seven treasure, so you have fourteen mana next turn--you could potentially win the game with that much. With Stash, you have eight mana next turn, so very different outcomes. This fits the playstyle of red vs green: a big burst of power once, as opposed to slowly saving and accumulating power.
Treasures are one of those thing that when you're playing with them you're having so much fun, but then when your opponent is doing the same thing you just hate them so much.
As for full art lands: I think of it like a change of frame they're slowly making standard. Full art lands being the standard look of lands in 5-10 years is a cool thing no one should feel bad about. The gradual transition keeps pricing steady on the way there, so even better. Just like the frame for Enchantment Creature showed up as a unique thing to Theros and later became standard regardless of plane. No one has complained about that change, I notice...
@@leviangel97 "If the second ability of Revel in Riches causes you to win the game, please refrain from throwing your Treasure tokens into the air as this may distract or injure other players."
@@travislannoye8244 well spotted mate 👍 If you want another laugh, look up Aura Thief's ruling, it's from 2004, back when stealing a bunch of global enchantments was nowhere near as powerful as it is today! First sentence is pretty funny
They should just make a colorless land with "Whenever an opponent sacrifices an artifact for mana, add a charge/storage counter on this land" and then be able to remove those counters for mana
I think that Manglehorn is a great addition to any creature based Green deck now, used to be strictly worse than a Reclamation Sage because it hit only Artifacts and not both Artifacts AND Enchantments… but still being able to destroy and Artifact plus the static ability of stopping people from exploiting treasures to get huge turns, making all their treasures enter tapped.. I think it’s a really great include. I run it in my Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck and it’s great 👌🏼
I agree. Treasures fits with red's temporary theme (impulse draws, creating tokens that are destroyed at end of turn, single turn theft) and would give white a method of ramp that could be tied to fairness (create a treasure for the difference in land count) or as a reward for it's rule setting (like Smothering Tithe or Monologue Tax). Give black and blue interesting interactions with treasures, and give green ways to punish or destroy treasure.
in the original mirrodin block there was an issue where people were just playing the best color to support artifacts that were the most competitive. colorless was the only viable option. when treasure production is too accessable this is the same problem but in reverse. the color pie doesn't matter. Everyone just plays the best combos and the cards they want. The limitations are only "how to i build my treasure production" not "How do i build around my colors and game plan"
Hey green needed the support. What is it that green is supposed to be good at again? Creatures Land/mana Draw Enchantments And now artifacts. Pretty sure that's just all parts of magic... Only thing it's "bad" at is removal. Which it has all forms of good removal besides board wipes.
Green should never have gotten treasures and green should never have gotten card draw when a creature enters the battlefield. Green allways gets everything. It now has great ramp, great card draw, great removal, great big creatures, great small creatures, good lifegain, great enchantments, and even good artifacts. Now green is probably going to get counterspells and reanimation next
My Breya treasures deck is very sad about all the new green treasure support. I don’t wanna have to build Kenrith Treasures but it’s getting harder not to each set.
it would be cool if the treasure mechanic would be something that goes like this "Hoard- create a treasure token. if you already have one, put a counter on it for each time you hoard" (treasures have tap, sacrifice this artifact to add mana of any color equal to the amount of counters on it)
Treasures are starting to get a bit absurd. They’re just generically good for every color and really speeding up the format. Maybe that’s the goal with a lot of these though. But green is getting ridiculously fast. Not sure why it’s getting some of the best treasure cards.
I dont think green is problematic atm. The "uniceness" of green seems to be: steal the things others doing but better cause "nature" and having more mana. Its just lazzy design, boring and uninspired. On blue side we have something that is more troublesome since beginning: extraturns, counterspells and being the carddraw color. So to break it down: you get an hole new turn that has no counterplay whatsoever in other colours. You can answer everything and you allways have something in hand to do stuff. Ofc there are more unice designs but those are more "balanced". White had a longtime ago the balance factor. But that design isnt supported anymore and they are somehow in an crysis to find "fun" ways for that. Gues if you boom everything or block some minor things you cant progress yourself, so you loose the game. Oh and if you go lifegain, thanks for waisting our all time. Red wants to go fast, but then you see blue having allways something and you run out of options cause your more "impulsive". Means you get most times slightely more for huge downsides. Like extra turn for loose the game or draw cards but you loose the game (cause they have to be played know) or fast creatures but you loose the game (cause you dont do enough esp if just one thing gets removed your out). So the only other thing you can do is damage but in commander your mostly too slow and loose the game. Black is imo the 2nd placed color. You can cheat close as good as blue and the price is fair. So its red but better. Oh yeah you also have other mechanics but in short: its all cheat. Cheat creatures in hand/grave/play. Cheat life. Cheat damage. Cheat draw. Do Something something to cheat something. And that is imo it. Nothing special about the other colors that are close to "you cant interact with anything i do, but if you someday get something i still can protect myself from that useless things and probably get payed for doing that 🤡"
I think they know what they are doing, bringing us to the point of “over saturation” just to expand the design space with treasure-hate cards in the future
Yes, treasures in green is wrong. BUT having the Stash be colorless or anything but green would be game-breaking. If you have access to green, you do not need the Stash. But if you want to abuse that card you need a green commander and therefore have a worse deck. Just think what Urza, Prosper, Magda, Korvold or else would do with this effect. If you want this effect to exist, it nerds to be in green. But who wanted it in the first place?
My feelings regaring the color green tend more and more towards: "It is a boring color I actively avoid and I actually do not want to play anymore". Even during drafts and prereleases I have to force myself not to mindlessly skip them.
If you wanna ramp a card, i think adding *gain 2 life* in the end is a better alternative than creating treasures. How can you say the inkeeper in pushed when every non-standard format has elvish mystic?
My issue with Treasures is that there aren't many ways to counter play against them right now. Most of the good counter plays were printed before Gold tokens (which Treasures were based on). I'd like to see more cards that sweep low mana value artifacts and some reprints of enchantments that force them to come in tapped or allow you to draw off them being used. It also turns every deck into an artifacts matters deck. I've played a metric ton of Rakdos over the years and they all throw treasures in now.
Free to play video games almost always include their own currencies so that once real money is filtered into bespoke internal currency, expenditures are harder to rationalise. It tricks the brain and becomes a type of fallacy. Treasure does the exact same thing as Lotus Petal, but its a token with a different name. Those two characteristics (token & name) have allowed the developers to 'play themselves' down a path of not recognising a problem until pressure is applied.
This echoes my own concern, pretty much point for point, as far as solutions go: We need to run more mass artifact or noncreature token hate, and equally Wizards probably need to print more of it. There's plenty of mass artifact hate around, but for treasures they could do something like a 3 mana vandalblast that just pops all noncreature tokens, or all artifact tokens, or something along those lines. Furthermore, in dealing with artifact hate, they really ought to find a way that you can stop treasure from working, on the stack, so that once you have your spell on the stack, opponents can't activate their treasure tokens to gain value from them, or something along those lines.
I totally agree about green not needing the boost that treasures provide. In general, I think the mechanic is getting far too strong, and treasure-generating cards too prevalent in the format (and too expensive). One angle that I think would be helpful is to encourage treasure use as a means to help cast those high mana value commanders; it would be nice to see more of them return to the format.
Treasures should've been left primarily in boros. Green should've never gotten them. Blues primary treasure maker got banned. Black can stay minimum with treasure.
They needed to make more of these treasures ETB tapped. Cards like Dockside Extortionist are rituals that let you save the mana for later. Not being able to use them until your next turn (unless you have something like Amulet of Vigor) seems like a reasonable downside. I'm not saying they should always enter tapped, but Ognis is a lot less broken and more interesting because of it.
I really dislike the argument that if everything is special then nothing is special. Its essentially saying you should only get good stuff everyone once in a while. Full art basic lands being so common means more people can easily have full art lands and more people are choosing to do that to their deck because their are more pretty land. And I like finding out which lands each player likes best. Cause they are all special to someone.
I love treasures. I've built a Magda Treasures EDH deck and the entire Grixis section of my cube around them. I agree with everything you've said about Green getting treasures. Stop it, WotC. It was fine in DnD (in all five colours because of theme), but it needs to stop.
Yep soon as I saw bootlegger’s cache, I went out and got 7 copies of eye of singularity. Stax-ey tho. I do like viridian revel and ancient runes, I like outlook of packing stuff that progresses you vs hamstringing them!
With all the changes in the format over the past few years, it really challenges you to kind of shift gears in what could be considered Commander staples. Cards like Viridian Revel and other things that benefit you for opponents screwing with artifacts would have never been considered otherwise so it's really a "adapt and overcome" type of situation. I predict that it will force WotC to print Treasure hate cards until the power spike goes down and more answers have to be invented
Structural Assault is going to be a very nice pickup for my Jared Carthalion deck! I don't see anything that is on the power level of Dockside or Smothering Tithe for treasures this time around. I think that it's a lot like the first round of partner commanders where they learned some lessons and applied them going forward. I don't really understand the "green gets treasures and white doesn't." But to be honest, I wouldn't play Old Gnarlbone or Bootlegger's Stash in any of my decks anyway. The only token treasure card that catches my eye is Ognis for my Veavictis deck which has a bunch of fervor effects. While I think that card is amazing specifically for that deck, I don't think it is necessarily pushed for the format. I'm giving the game designers at WotC a tip of the hat instead of a wag of the fingers this time around. I think this set is one of the most exciting and flavorful ones we've seen in a while, and I haven't seen anything absolutely busted. I think Jetmir might be the strongest card spoiled so far, and honestly any commander that encourages combat gets a nod from me.
I agree that the treasures going to green instead of white is a boggling decision. But if it means that white gets some more legit card draw and some legit ramp, I'm here for it.
I think treasures have a bad reputation because people still think of them as a mechanic designed as its own archetype rather than a tool the designers can use to make mana a little more permanent than Red and Black normally do (with rituals) and a little less permanently than Green normally does (with ramp). I think the problem lies less with how many cards can make them, and more how many can be made per card, and the weird incidental synergies it has with the fact that they're artifacts. Edit: wanted to add, if "Cultivate in blue" gives you the same issue as treasure in green, how does Dreamscape Artist make you feel? It basically turns any card in your hand into a Harrow.
I don't like this set, at all. I don't like the design direction (too colourful and posh for my taste) and I think that it gives too many new ways to create treasures.
It pissed me off to no ends when I saw Bootlegger’s Stash. Green is the last card that needs ramp like that. They have pushed this color to be just as powerful as blue thinking that they’ll somehow compete when in reality they just combined into an even worse monster. Not only does green not need it, it’s far and away BETTER than what other colors would have gotten. White’s version would have been so kneecapped that it’d only allow one land per turn to tap for treasure.
Uh, of course it's better than a white version would be? Green is primary in making mana, white only makes mana in very limited cases (like the new Giada). Why are you acting like it's some kind of injustice?
@@Yesnomu they aren’t balancing it properly. Green is the color of ramp, so paying a higher costs is less of an issue. When it’s given a white effect, it gets a cheaper version, not a more expensive version.
Old Gnaw bone should have been red and inferno of star mounts green, inferno pumps itself which green likes and red should be the color of treasure in general imo, so Gnaw bone fits that.
Joey at 5:00 "flavorfully you can justify anything in a color but it doesn't make it right in the game." Joey at 5:55 "I get, fully, that green is the color of mana, but to me, the fact that green is the color of nature should take priority over that." ??? So you're saying that flavor shouldn't matter more than mechanical identities but flavor is more important to you than mechanics??? Also why does everyone say that white is/used to be the color of treasures? There are exactly two white cards that make treasure for you, and both are in control of your opponents. That would be like saying Red is a card draw color because risk factor, browbeat, and Fiery Gambit exist. It's just that one of those two cards happens to be one of the most played cards in commander *because* it breaks the color pie. Same reason green decks play beast within.
I feel like WotC needs to give us more tools to interact with Treasure Generation/Stockpiling, like they’ve been adding more and more graveyard hate to each set. I picturing a couple of “Soul Guide Lantern” type cards that are cheap to cast, can cantrip when they’re not required and have fantastic Utility when playing against a Treasure deck. Like Dana said, maybe even on a utility land. An ability something along the lines of… 1 mana, tap, sacrifice this permanent: Token Artifacts lose all abilities and gain “at the beginning of the next end step, exile this permanent.” Would in my opinion be a great addition. Only hits token artifacts so won’t hoze people’s ramp, and exiles them instead of sacrificing them which stops accidental value from sacrificing artifacts. Just my 2-cents…
Treasure token the treasuring. Been the theme for like 2-3 years to make treasures from fucking everything, and especially for colors that don't need it, green certainly doesn't need treasures on top of everything else the color has gotten since let's say BFZ.
As for Dockside they will never van it because it is in a Commander Precon. We are stuck with it. It was a design mistake and the format is suffering because of it imo.
Dockside is crazy good, but run more hatebear. White and green have plenty of answers on their own. I do think wotc needs to make more punisher effects for those who want to break DsE.
Old Gnawbones creating treasures is related to it being a dragon not necessarily because it was a green creature. In that respect it’s not really a flavor fail. But I think adding other ways for green to make treasures was foolish and a flavor fail.
@@KBergs yea, I think all of the colors should have gotten a dragon that somehow created treasures based upon a color theme, whether it was an attack trigger, blocking trigger, etb trigger or ltb trigger or damage trigger. I am just saying that treasure and dragons is a reasonable fit.
I run a pretty high power korvold treasure deck, but overall I feel like treasure isn't that overpowered. I once played a dockside into korvold into gnawbone and a bootlegger stash, ended up with like 24 treasure at the end of it all, and guess what, I lost that game 😅 treasures don't make you invincible, one vandalblast and ita all over
I'm excited for green taking on treasure. Currently greens best ramp is it's efficient 1 cmc mana dorks. A birds of paradise gets a turn 2 3cmc commander. If these treasure cards can push out early mana dorks in deck construction, this will put their ramp more mid and late game. That can help encourage higher cmc commanders & slow down green's initial speed (by replacing mana dorks). The artifact this gives all your lands the ability to make treasure is actually slow (it takes you two turns after you cast it to benefit). Having access to that much mana late game will encourage late game big mana intensive plays. From a casual perspective I think that's a good thing.
Treasures are today so much upside that you have to play around it to make it a downside and that is allways bad. Esp if you could answer the answer cause you have the mana to counter the problem or destroy that. So an answer need to work in different zones too.
I kinda feel like this discussion missed the greater idea that most of treasure cards are designed for Standard and not Commander in mind. Shambling Ghasts , Deadly Dispute , and Unexpected Windfall are examples of Bomb standard cards that you didn't even mention for the commander format. I believe with Treasure becoming an evergreen mechanic , Austere Command is looking like it is becoming back into a premier sweeper for that one player with 20 treasures
I just really wish they wouldn’t be giving treasures to of all colors, green… the anti-artifact color, the color that needs it the least
Same same same. Weirdly annoying for me
I wish red and white were just the treasure color makers and maybe secondary of blue and black but yes definitely not green. If anything green should be the anti treasure color destroying and gobbling up treasures.
meh, it makes sence from the dnd set becuse the green dragon in that took over an Elf kingdom with a big seeming limitless hoard of treasure but for the most part the rest yeah
green is the big mana color and the least likely to abuse the artifacts
@@joefuller3886 still doesn't justify the outragous card that it is
Is there any way to crunch the numbers (EDHREC-style) and plot the average number of treasure-based cards per deck against an appropriate time period? That's the kind of data I'd love to hear to put things more under perspective.
I think that rewarding you with "if mana from a treasure was spent to cast this spell..." is a nice incentive to not just stash treasures. But those incentives are few, and yeah, treasures in green feels wrong
Edit, 28:04 Dana sneaking an excuse for less basics
My friend group was talking about this as well recently. Kinda thought it was getting shoved down are throats too much nowadays. I thought it would’ve been cooler to have clues in New Capenna instead of treasures since it feels more Noir.
Same, I do hope that this is the last we'll see of treasures for a while at least.
Agreed, but it seems they wanted to make a set based primarily around the swinging 20's rather than focusing on noir themes.
Yes, clues would have been so much better!
Jonnytailo
No
Johnnytailor
Ok ovwhorth
I built an Akiri/Silas Treasures matter deck back in 2020 before they ever printed any green treasure cards and the treasure cards were basically Smothering Tithe and Ixalan cards. I loved how it was my own niche strategy with some payoff without being too powerful. Fast forward to today where it feels like they print more treasure cards than anything else now and it’s affected my deck’s uniqueness. It’s gotten to the point where I have to try and convince people that I made a treasure deck “before it was cool”…
The fact that there are several cards in New Capenna that produces tapped treasures hopefully means that wotc realizes that treasures are becoming a problem.
Also wotc: bootlegger’s stash at mythic 😎😎😎
Interesting idea I just had here. I really like the implementation of treasures entering tapped. Maybe for color pie reasons Red should be getting untapped treasures (spend it now, impulse buy, etc.) and other colors should have to save it by having it enter tapped. As for green... just no.
I like what Dana mentioned towards the end, to me it’s like more I have to now fit these types of cards instead of slots I would have preferred been more towards the flavor or my unique take on the deck. White really should have keep the treasures theme, the whole taxing aspect of white can lead to some awesome cards designs…..
That whole flavor and card design idea makes complete sense to me and sounds great, but I will say I think they've liked the idea of giving white land ramp and probably don't need much more ramp in general unless all the other colors start getting more ramp that would outclass whites currently existing land ramp
@@captaindaddd6055 i just always pictured/would of preferred the idea of treasures in white instead of land ramp cause of cards like Smothering Tithe, it’s a good way for white to “ramp” in the form of treasures/ a taxing effect to keep up with the green decks of the world that now have that artifact that makes lands tap to make treasure, I don’t think that card needed to exist at all in any color.
@@gaymer4rmmeletis I totally agree. I thought old gnawbone was a wild one and I'm surprised they released that. Putting treasures in green just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me
As someone said on tiktok, “green shouldn’t make treasure, because treasures don’t grow on trees.’
but they do grow in the ground. Just need to do some digging.
Dana’s deadpan “I don’t like Join Forces as a mechanic” was golden XD The delivery was perfect 👌
Mayhem Devil is like my favorite card now because of how strong he is when a bunch of treasures are on board. I've used his ping effect for politics too when others have treasures
Bootlegger’s Stash definitely should have been a red card
Or black even
Makes sense cause brass bounty was like the dad of the card
Or Black… or both?
I think treasures should be rare, and mostly in red (with the exception a creating 8 for 2cmc).
But white should be able to create pearls (artifacts that you can tap and sacrifice to create white mana) - same can be done in each color, to a lesser extent (green VERY RARELY can find emeralds hidden in the bark of a tree)
I like the idea for white :)
But for green.. lets give it food.
@@okgut2033like the idea of Food for green. More effects like Gilded goose, where you can eat the food to produce more Mana
THANK YOU! I can't stand how mono white is the only color that isn't supposed to benefit from resources, even though it is the color of order and civilization! those two things alone should mean White should have the most passive form of generating resources- taxing others to pay for their projects. And about Nature green, it makes more sense if you think of treasure and natural treasures such as gems rather than artificial treasures such as coins.
Green has been my favorite color for 25 years, but I 100 percent agree that green should not get treasures.
I'm in agreement. Stash was 100% a mistake. Green already has to much of the color pie and now this? Let's not forget all the token doublers are in green as well...
Having played in ixlan limited treasures made it easier/fun to cast big MV spells in limited. However now there everywhere and its losing its flavor. I use tresures in 4 of my 5 decks (3 of which have green in them). On top out of the decks that run green in them that feels fun/flavorful is Shattergang Brothers with pitiless plunder + Academy manufactor. Side note: I hope we get a white rhystic study that makes clues.
In my mind, there is just a lot of them. I saw JLK on twitter say that all of them should come in tapped. That is the best way to make them perfectly fair.
Less of a runaway storm turn for sure. I like we've seen that for a few cards this set: "tapped Treasure tokens". And that still fits flavor perfectly in my opinion! You gotta hoard your treasure at least one turn before you spend it. Also not sure why green has treasures, considering of anyone they'd think useless shineys are stupid.
I don't think bootleggers stash will be as strong as people are hyping it up to be since green doesn't really have a ton of artifact support, but I do agree that green also doesn't need the help in producting hoards of Mana. It would definitely have been better if it was red or even white. I mean, what were they even thinking?!
I use my Lotus Petal's as treasure tokens, gets a good conversation started at most tables.
$20 treasures, nice flex.
This is the first episode of your cast that really pulled me in. Lovely content and thank you for the listen.
On topic I do wish more treasure hate would show up. I dont mind the treasures even if they are ridiculously frequent now, but if they give us more collector ouphes (maybe in white hopefully) I think it would add enough of a deckbuilding cost/ consideration to help mitigate the treasure situation.
Goad is a great example here, I am in a similar boat with the Thief of Sanity/Ashiok based effects where I love the "I can play your cards!" thing, but like with Ragavan its super annoying if they make it too good.
Its a great fun mechanic, that also can be obnoxious in multiple ways. Least of which being just exiling key pieces from your opponents decks and never casting them so they never get em in their grave or something.
I think what surprises me the most is that they still haven't printed good treasure hate. We need a card that is good on it's own but also hoses treasures.
Something like an enchantment with that also has a "At the beginning of your end step each opponent loses life equal to the twice the number of treasure artifacts they control"
needs to be on activation or ETB otherwise you just go off the same turn and it does nothing
Gorilla shaman, stony silence, energy Flux, blind obedience, etc
Bootlegger's Stash should be a red card. It feels and plays like a card already in red Brass's Bounty
It doesn't really play like Brass's Bounty at all, Bounty gets you ahead on mana while Stash is mana banking like Omnath or Kruphix. Green is the appropriate color for the card.
@@Yesnomu It is linked to lands under your control like Brass's Bounty that is why I am comparing the two and saying the card should be a red card
I don't understand why it needs to be green
@@atlaswar2425 Green is the only single color it could be. The similarity to Bounty is only superficial, Bounty is a one-shot mana ritual that is expressed through treasure while Stash is a long-term mana bank. Let's say you play both with seven lands: Bounty gives you seven treasure, so you have fourteen mana next turn--you could potentially win the game with that much. With Stash, you have eight mana next turn, so very different outcomes. This fits the playstyle of red vs green: a big burst of power once, as opposed to slowly saving and accumulating power.
@@Yesnomu Bwahahaha hahahahahaha AHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHAHAHA
Greens best part of the pie is that it can copy the other colors best part of the pie
Treasures are one of those thing that when you're playing with them you're having so much fun, but then when your opponent is doing the same thing you just hate them so much.
WotC: "we know white needs help in ramp and card draw"
Also WotC: "White no longer gets treasures, but green does!"
WotC: "nature!"
As for full art lands: I think of it like a change of frame they're slowly making standard. Full art lands being the standard look of lands in 5-10 years is a cool thing no one should feel bad about. The gradual transition keeps pricing steady on the way there, so even better. Just like the frame for Enchantment Creature showed up as a unique thing to Theros and later became standard regardless of plane. No one has complained about that change, I notice...
I dont have an issue with treasures but it does feel like a flavor fail for green to make treasures
while removing from white which has a ton of justification
@@KBergs idk about that. White has catch up ramp. But definitely more artifact synergies than green.
Small aside on Revel in Riches: if you run this card, please look at the last ruling on its Scryfall page...
I'm on my phone atm, what's the gist of this issue?
@@leviangel97 "If the second ability of Revel in Riches causes you to win the game, please refrain from throwing your Treasure tokens into the air as this may distract or injure other players."
@@travislannoye8244 well spotted mate 👍 If you want another laugh, look up Aura Thief's ruling, it's from 2004, back when stealing a bunch of global enchantments was nowhere near as powerful as it is today! First sentence is pretty funny
That was a nice intro!
They should just make a colorless land with "Whenever an opponent sacrifices an artifact for mana, add a charge/storage counter on this land" and then be able to remove those counters for mana
and make it a plains
I think that Manglehorn is a great addition to any creature based Green deck now, used to be strictly worse than a Reclamation Sage because it hit only Artifacts and not both Artifacts AND Enchantments… but still being able to destroy and Artifact plus the static ability of stopping people from exploiting treasures to get huge turns, making all their treasures enter tapped.. I think it’s a really great include. I run it in my Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck and it’s great 👌🏼
Matt saying dockside isn't bannable made me like the video
...but it is still much better than several other cards banned for power reasons
Love this, Love you
Treasure should enter tapped, and they should be prioritized to W R and never be in green.
They should low key be sorcery speed
This
I agree. Treasures fits with red's temporary theme (impulse draws, creating tokens that are destroyed at end of turn, single turn theft) and would give white a method of ramp that could be tied to fairness (create a treasure for the difference in land count) or as a reward for it's rule setting (like Smothering Tithe or Monologue Tax).
Give black and blue interesting interactions with treasures, and give green ways to punish or destroy treasure.
B and U feel treasure-y too imo, but as a less prioritized mechanic in comparison to W/R
We need a colorless land that read: “0 mana value non-land permanents enter the battlefield tapped”
In Ixalan I made a treasure deck and loved it, but now the rate that you can make treasures is wild. My once jank deck is now seen as salt.
in the original mirrodin block there was an issue where people were just playing the best color to support artifacts that were the most competitive. colorless was the only viable option. when treasure production is too accessable this is the same problem but in reverse. the color pie doesn't matter. Everyone just plays the best combos and the cards they want. The limitations are only "how to i build my treasure production" not "How do i build around my colors and game plan"
Hey green needed the support. What is it that green is supposed to be good at again?
Creatures
Land/mana
Draw
Enchantments
And now artifacts.
Pretty sure that's just all parts of magic...
Only thing it's "bad" at is removal. Which it has all forms of good removal besides board wipes.
Green should never have gotten treasures and green should never have gotten card draw when a creature enters the battlefield. Green allways gets everything. It now has great ramp, great card draw, great removal, great big creatures, great small creatures, good lifegain, great enchantments, and even good artifacts. Now green is probably going to get counterspells and reanimation next
Sadly they have a few cards for both of those already
My Breya treasures deck is very sad about all the new green treasure support. I don’t wanna have to build Kenrith Treasures but it’s getting harder not to each set.
Oof... Academy Manufactor + Xorn + Reckless Fireweaver are probably my favorite token set up. Hit everyone for 12 with just unexpected windfall....
it would be cool if the treasure mechanic would be something that goes like this
"Hoard- create a treasure token. if you already have one, put a counter on it for each time you hoard"
(treasures have tap, sacrifice this artifact to add mana of any color equal to the amount of counters on it)
This video generated at least 9 treasures while I was watching it.
Edit: I think we need more cards to steal or denature treasures.
Treasure Magnet : if a player would create a treasure, you create a treasure instead.
Counterfeiter : artifact tokens lose all abilities
Rust Demon: All artifact tokens gain Fade 1
@@Hexatomb I'd buy tf outta the lose abilities one.
Treasures are starting to get a bit absurd. They’re just generically good for every color and really speeding up the format. Maybe that’s the goal with a lot of these though. But green is getting ridiculously fast. Not sure why it’s getting some of the best treasure cards.
Because Wotc has a horrible balance track record when it comes to blue and green, which happen to be Maro's favorite colors.
I dont think green is problematic atm. The "uniceness" of green seems to be: steal the things others doing but better cause "nature" and having more mana.
Its just lazzy design, boring and uninspired.
On blue side we have something that is more troublesome since beginning: extraturns, counterspells and being the carddraw color. So to break it down: you get an hole new turn that has no counterplay whatsoever in other colours. You can answer everything and you allways have something in hand to do stuff. Ofc there are more unice designs but those are more "balanced".
White had a longtime ago the balance factor. But that design isnt supported anymore and they are somehow in an crysis to find "fun" ways for that. Gues if you boom everything or block some minor things you cant progress yourself, so you loose the game. Oh and if you go lifegain, thanks for waisting our all time.
Red wants to go fast, but then you see blue having allways something and you run out of options cause your more "impulsive".
Means you get most times slightely more for huge downsides.
Like extra turn for loose the game or draw cards but you loose the game (cause they have to be played know) or fast creatures but you loose the game (cause you dont do enough esp if just one thing gets removed your out).
So the only other thing you can do is damage but in commander your mostly too slow and loose the game.
Black is imo the 2nd placed color. You can cheat close as good as blue and the price is fair. So its red but better. Oh yeah you also have other mechanics but in short: its all cheat. Cheat creatures in hand/grave/play. Cheat life. Cheat damage. Cheat draw. Do Something something to cheat something.
And that is imo it. Nothing special about the other colors that are close to "you cant interact with anything i do, but if you someday get something i still can protect myself from that useless things and probably get payed for doing that 🤡"
I think they know what they are doing, bringing us to the point of “over saturation” just to expand the design space with treasure-hate cards in the future
I've had a Titania's Song sitting in my bulk green box for over 25 years. I think it's getting dusted off and I'm going to try it.....
Yes, treasures in green is wrong. BUT having the Stash be colorless or anything but green would be game-breaking. If you have access to green, you do not need the Stash. But if you want to abuse that card you need a green commander and therefore have a worse deck. Just think what Urza, Prosper, Magda, Korvold or else would do with this effect.
If you want this effect to exist, it nerds to be in green. But who wanted it in the first place?
But Korvold is green and is particularly fond of treasures. And i say that being a korvold treasures player.
My feelings regaring the color green tend more and more towards: "It is a boring color I actively avoid and I actually do not want to play anymore". Even during drafts and prereleases I have to force myself not to mindlessly skip them.
Same, I actively avoid commanders with green and will actively try killing a green player first honestly.
Agree so much that shifting treasures into green and out of grixis plus into all sets soo frequently lacks flavour
Fun fact....Green also has Doubling Season :)...what were they thinking?
If you wanna ramp a card, i think adding *gain 2 life* in the end is a better alternative than creating treasures.
How can you say the inkeeper in pushed when every non-standard format has elvish mystic?
I really think bootlegers stash and halo fountain should of been switched round.
My issue with Treasures is that there aren't many ways to counter play against them right now. Most of the good counter plays were printed before Gold tokens (which Treasures were based on). I'd like to see more cards that sweep low mana value artifacts and some reprints of enchantments that force them to come in tapped or allow you to draw off them being used.
It also turns every deck into an artifacts matters deck. I've played a metric ton of Rakdos over the years and they all throw treasures in now.
Free to play video games almost always include their own currencies so that once real money is filtered into bespoke internal currency, expenditures are harder to rationalise. It tricks the brain and becomes a type of fallacy. Treasure does the exact same thing as Lotus Petal, but its a token with a different name. Those two characteristics (token & name) have allowed the developers to 'play themselves' down a path of not recognising a problem until pressure is applied.
Green is Raymond Barone...White is Robert: Raymond gets eeeeverything
what I took from this video is that we need better stax pieces for treasures
This echoes my own concern, pretty much point for point, as far as solutions go: We need to run more mass artifact or noncreature token hate, and equally Wizards probably need to print more of it. There's plenty of mass artifact hate around, but for treasures they could do something like a 3 mana vandalblast that just pops all noncreature tokens, or all artifact tokens, or something along those lines. Furthermore, in dealing with artifact hate, they really ought to find a way that you can stop treasure from working, on the stack, so that once you have your spell on the stack, opponents can't activate their treasure tokens to gain value from them, or something along those lines.
I totally agree about green not needing the boost that treasures provide. In general, I think the mechanic is getting far too strong, and treasure-generating cards too prevalent in the format (and too expensive). One angle that I think would be helpful is to encourage treasure use as a means to help cast those high mana value commanders; it would be nice to see more of them return to the format.
A bojuka bog type land that destroys 0 mana nonland permanents when it etbs?
Bootlegger's Stash should have been red or black....
Treasures should've been left primarily in boros. Green should've never gotten them. Blues primary treasure maker got banned. Black can stay minimum with treasure.
They needed to make more of these treasures ETB tapped. Cards like Dockside Extortionist are rituals that let you save the mana for later. Not being able to use them until your next turn (unless you have something like Amulet of Vigor) seems like a reasonable downside. I'm not saying they should always enter tapped, but Ognis is a lot less broken and more interesting because of it.
so do you guys like or do not like treasures in green?
I really dislike the argument that if everything is special then nothing is special. Its essentially saying you should only get good stuff everyone once in a while. Full art basic lands being so common means more people can easily have full art lands and more people are choosing to do that to their deck because their are more pretty land. And I like finding out which lands each player likes best. Cause they are all special to someone.
So glad for the uncle heel turn.
I love treasures. I've built a Magda Treasures EDH deck and the entire Grixis section of my cube around them. I agree with everything you've said about Green getting treasures. Stop it, WotC. It was fine in DnD (in all five colours because of theme), but it needs to stop.
Yep soon as I saw bootlegger’s cache, I went out and got 7 copies of eye of singularity. Stax-ey tho.
I do like viridian revel and ancient runes, I like outlook of packing stuff that progresses you vs hamstringing them!
With all the changes in the format over the past few years, it really challenges you to kind of shift gears in what could be considered Commander staples. Cards like Viridian Revel and other things that benefit you for opponents screwing with artifacts would have never been considered otherwise so it's really a "adapt and overcome" type of situation. I predict that it will force WotC to print Treasure hate cards until the power spike goes down and more answers have to be invented
Structural Assault is going to be a very nice pickup for my Jared Carthalion deck!
I don't see anything that is on the power level of Dockside or Smothering Tithe for treasures this time around. I think that it's a lot like the first round of partner commanders where they learned some lessons and applied them going forward. I don't really understand the "green gets treasures and white doesn't." But to be honest, I wouldn't play Old Gnarlbone or Bootlegger's Stash in any of my decks anyway.
The only token treasure card that catches my eye is Ognis for my Veavictis deck which has a bunch of fervor effects. While I think that card is amazing specifically for that deck, I don't think it is necessarily pushed for the format.
I'm giving the game designers at WotC a tip of the hat instead of a wag of the fingers this time around. I think this set is one of the most exciting and flavorful ones we've seen in a while, and I haven't seen anything absolutely busted. I think Jetmir might be the strongest card spoiled so far, and honestly any commander that encourages combat gets a nod from me.
I agree that the treasures going to green instead of white is a boggling decision. But if it means that white gets some more legit card draw and some legit ramp, I'm here for it.
I think treasures have a bad reputation because people still think of them as a mechanic designed as its own archetype rather than a tool the designers can use to make mana a little more permanent than Red and Black normally do (with rituals) and a little less permanently than Green normally does (with ramp). I think the problem lies less with how many cards can make them, and more how many can be made per card, and the weird incidental synergies it has with the fact that they're artifacts.
Edit: wanted to add, if "Cultivate in blue" gives you the same issue as treasure in green, how does Dreamscape Artist make you feel? It basically turns any card in your hand into a Harrow.
I don't like this set, at all. I don't like the design direction (too colourful and posh for my taste) and I think that it gives too many new ways to create treasures.
SHIMMER DRAGON be like : MORE PLEASE!
Should I trade away my 2nd dockside?
It pissed me off to no ends when I saw Bootlegger’s Stash. Green is the last card that needs ramp like that. They have pushed this color to be just as powerful as blue thinking that they’ll somehow compete when in reality they just combined into an even worse monster. Not only does green not need it, it’s far and away BETTER than what other colors would have gotten. White’s version would have been so kneecapped that it’d only allow one land per turn to tap for treasure.
Uh, of course it's better than a white version would be? Green is primary in making mana, white only makes mana in very limited cases (like the new Giada). Why are you acting like it's some kind of injustice?
@@Yesnomu they aren’t balancing it properly. Green is the color of ramp, so paying a higher costs is less of an issue. When it’s given a white effect, it gets a cheaper version, not a more expensive version.
I agree green does not need treasure but old gnaw bone is good in my chatterfang deck for making my nutty creatures
Old Gnaw bone should have been red and inferno of star mounts green, inferno pumps itself which green likes and red should be the color of treasure in general imo, so Gnaw bone fits that.
I agree, treasures are too many now... too much
sooooo I am running more artifact boardwipes. it's just crazy too many now.
WotC has given themselves the greatest copout of all time with green. Anything can be loosely justified with "Cuz nature bruh".
If u think about it all the other colors are nature too so the sky is the limit with green and wotc
Joey at 5:00 "flavorfully you can justify anything in a color but it doesn't make it right in the game."
Joey at 5:55 "I get, fully, that green is the color of mana, but to me, the fact that green is the color of nature should take priority over that."
??? So you're saying that flavor shouldn't matter more than mechanical identities but flavor is more important to you than mechanics???
Also why does everyone say that white is/used to be the color of treasures? There are exactly two white cards that make treasure for you, and both are in control of your opponents. That would be like saying Red is a card draw color because risk factor, browbeat, and Fiery Gambit exist. It's just that one of those two cards happens to be one of the most played cards in commander *because* it breaks the color pie. Same reason green decks play beast within.
Love the new show!
I feel like WotC needs to give us more tools to interact with Treasure Generation/Stockpiling, like they’ve been adding more and more graveyard hate to each set.
I picturing a couple of “Soul Guide Lantern” type cards that are cheap to cast, can cantrip when they’re not required and have fantastic Utility when playing against a Treasure deck. Like Dana said, maybe even on a utility land.
An ability something along the lines of… 1 mana, tap, sacrifice this permanent: Token Artifacts lose all abilities and gain “at the beginning of the next end step, exile this permanent.” Would in my opinion be a great addition.
Only hits token artifacts so won’t hoze people’s ramp, and exiles them instead of sacrificing them which stops accidental value from sacrificing artifacts.
Just my 2-cents…
Treasure token the treasuring. Been the theme for like 2-3 years to make treasures from fucking everything, and especially for colors that don't need it, green certainly doesn't need treasures on top of everything else the color has gotten since let's say BFZ.
Won’t somebody think of the Blue players!!
As for Dockside they will never van it because it is in a Commander Precon. We are stuck with it. It was a design mistake and the format is suffering because of it imo.
Dockside is crazy good, but run more hatebear. White and green have plenty of answers on their own. I do think wotc needs to make more punisher effects for those who want to break DsE.
Gonna start using Titania's Song...
Just shut them treasures down with eye if singularity, corrosion and collector ouphe👌
Green cards should not use the word treasure unless saying: 'Destroy all treasures'.
Old Gnawbones creating treasures is related to it being a dragon not necessarily because it was a green creature. In that respect it’s not really a flavor fail. But I think adding other ways for green to make treasures was foolish and a flavor fail.
cool then it could've been a black card and been just fine
@@KBergs yea, I think all of the colors should have gotten a dragon that somehow created treasures based upon a color theme, whether it was an attack trigger, blocking trigger, etb trigger or ltb trigger or damage trigger. I am just saying that treasure and dragons is a reasonable fit.
Treasure tokens are just lotus petals. Change my mind.
Lotus Petal is recurable, Treasure Tokens aren't.
Black lotus is just three treasures in a trench coat.
Lotus petal is a card
I run a pretty high power korvold treasure deck, but overall I feel like treasure isn't that overpowered. I once played a dockside into korvold into gnawbone and a bootlegger stash, ended up with like 24 treasure at the end of it all, and guess what, I lost that game 😅 treasures don't make you invincible, one vandalblast and ita all over
Make treasures, crackle with power.
Don't tell people tireless provisioner is better than Lotus Cobra I'm trying to buy up all the tireless provisioners I can
I'm excited for green taking on treasure. Currently greens best ramp is it's efficient 1 cmc mana dorks. A birds of paradise gets a turn 2 3cmc commander. If these treasure cards can push out early mana dorks in deck construction, this will put their ramp more mid and late game. That can help encourage higher cmc commanders & slow down green's initial speed (by replacing mana dorks). The artifact this gives all your lands the ability to make treasure is actually slow (it takes you two turns after you cast it to benefit). Having access to that much mana late game will encourage late game big mana intensive plays. From a casual perspective I think that's a good thing.
Treasures are today so much upside that you have to play around it to make it a downside and that is allways bad.
Esp if you could answer the answer cause you have the mana to counter the problem or destroy that.
So an answer need to work in different zones too.
I kinda feel like this discussion missed the greater idea that most of treasure cards are designed for Standard and not Commander in mind. Shambling Ghasts , Deadly Dispute , and Unexpected Windfall are examples of Bomb standard cards that you didn't even mention for the commander format. I believe with Treasure becoming an evergreen mechanic , Austere Command is looking like it is becoming back into a premier sweeper for that one player with 20 treasures
Oh also Viridian Revel has spiked at this point lol
So we should buy lots of blast zones?