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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 เม.ย. 2022
- How many basic lands does your deck play? Can utility lands cause more harm than good? Let's discuss!
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Dana plays so many utility lands that he has trouble holding up counterspell mana in monoblue
that's WAY too many utility lands
he plays so many noon-basics that Price of Progress is always a 1 shot kill.
That's funny!
So much utility but at what cost?
He said his 2 color blue decks you must have missed that lol
Alternate title: Dana explains why ghost quarter against him is strip mine.
Thank you Dana for using my challenge. With all the Aura decks running around out there, Sythis, Siona, Tuvasa, Light-Paws, etc. it just seemed like a solid utility card to save your auras.
My mate has a light paws and I have a bruna. These will make a fine addition to our decks. Good find mate
Scarab of the Unseen is good in Killian if you go the cantrip route. lots of 1 mana draw 1 card back to your hand
I was not expecting Dana to say he ran 6 basics at his lowest basic count. I have a 3C deck running 5 basics two plains, two mountains, swamp. Never had an issue getting my colors.
This highlights the importance of tracking your colored mana pips.
I used to count the first pip (of each color) in each card as "1" and every other pips of the same color as "0.5", then balance the land mana production off of it _and_ giving a little bit of extra push of lowly present colors
I'm in the "it totally depends on the deck" camp. I was running a bunch of budget mana fixing nonbasics for my Volo deck and it was slowing my deck down so much. (I only play budget because I'm poor) I have since removed all nonbasics and have only basics in the deck and it runs even better. With the amount of ramp when you have 2 or 3 Sakura or solemn, you can easily colour fix. I've never had a game that I haven't had the colours I need.
My pet deck is Extus aristocrats and that deck runs a grand total of six basics and two utility lands: Phyrexian Tower and The Bog. It's *extremely* low to the ground with an average CMC of 2.5, and the lower your curve gets the more demanding your colors get because you simply don't have as many generic mana costs to play. This is compounded by the fact that the deck wants to be playing 2, 3, 4 spells a turn, again, making your color requirements pretty steep. The deck's ramp is almost all artifacts, but it does also run Boreas Charger and Knight of the White Orchid, and the only reason those two get a spot is because they search for Plains, not Basic Plains, meaning that they have five targets (two Plains, two Shocks, and a Triome), not just two.
I'm definitely with Dana in the camp of once you've got enough deckbuilding experience and money invested into lands, you can be more aggressive/greedy with nonbasics, you just gotta remember than when someone slams a Blood Moon and you can't cast shit you did it to yourself and you're not allowed to bitch about it.
Preach it!
Totally with you on that and on that last part xD
I started thinking on this exact subject just a couple weeks ago while looking over Dana's Juri list. I never realized that in all but 3 of my decks I played almost a perfectly 50/50 split of basics v. non-basics. The only decks that I didn't make the effort to keep the basic count higher were decks that drew multiple cards every turn or my 5-color deck that needs more fixing. I always find myself neglecting utility lands when I do play them unless the ability is is absolutely integral to what I need to do to win or prevent a loss in that given moment. Thanks for making me evaluate my deck building process and habits with every episode!
Matt's joke made me keel over with laughter
I quickly discovered that I had a colorless lands problem in my Kaza, Roil Chaser deck, because she almost always reduces the colorless cost of my instant and sorcery spells to nothing. PLUS most of my creatures in that deck are 1 mana wizards. I kept cutting and cutting until i realized the correct number of colorless lands was zero.
May I interest you in running grave hate and nonbasic land hate in your mana base though?
It is probably not worth it in a Kaza deck, since almost nothing there costs generic mana. Scavenger Grounds and Tectonic Edge would be dead lands most of the time (in regards of casting spells), so they might as well be just a grave/land hate spell/artifact if graveyard decks/nonbasic lands are a problem.
I have a Mogis deck that runs into a similar situation. The deck isn't green, and triple mana of the same color is the rule on its cards. So, every land and mana rock must generate colored mana, otherwise I'd be stuck with uncastable cards in hand. I might run into some powerful nonbasic lands or graveyard decks, but I have to accept this weakness and hope I can win faster than they do. (In my other decks with easier costs, Scavenger Grounds and Tectonic Edge are always present though.)
Blood Moon is one of my favorite cards ever because EVERYONE plays a disgusting amount of nonbasics.
I would say every mono red deck that can run one should do so.
I have a werewolf deck that makes sure it sticks by running hate pieces and my favorite one to slam is Blood Moon for both flavor and effectiveness because most of my playgroup run 6basics tops, they see basics as more of filler than premium like I do, HAhahaha.
@@blaze556922 If blood moon is an oppressive card, your playgroup plays too few basics and too little enchantment removal.
@@blaze556922 I never said play stax. There is a large gap between what you responded with and my intention. I have seen a lot of players lose games because they don't pack removal for powerful but fair enchantments like smothering tithe. I win through combat with most of my decks. I would still say run blood moon because it isn't like winter orb or stasis. The enchantment you refered to punishes people for playing the game. Blood moon punishes greedy land bases. It is kinda like admitting that ghost quarter is a stax piece in your meta.
Ultimately, you ignored my point. Blood moon isn't a problem card in combat focused metas and I am not saying to only have enchantment removal. I am saying run cards like boseju or naturalize or anguished unmaking which can affect enchantments or you will lose to the enchantress deck every single time even when it wins through combat.
My green decks run tranquility. That is because I have seen too many tables where I am the only one with a single card in their deck that can destroy smothering tithe or obliette or blood moon. These are fair cards in commander, if powerful. If blood moon shuts down their decks, run path to exile over swords. They won't be able to ramp.
Totally agree. There are so many problematic enchantments that warp the game that you should be ready to respond. I only run Blood Moon in a mono-red Torbran deck to leverage my early board presence and buy time. It’s strong but not game breaking. I’ve had many games where other players allowed my Blood Moon to stick around because it didn’t effect them as much as someone else. They correctly allowed the Blood Moon to punish that players greed and it does a good job at that. Whenever I hear that Blood Moon breaks rule zero, I’ve learned they haven’t had enough play experience to realize that it’s no winter orb.
My Abzan deck plays 9 basics and it feels low, but I've gotta say I resonate with Dana's warlock analogy. There are truisms in Magic that will make your life easier for new players, but as you play and understand your decks and your style you can stray from them.
I always glance nervously at sol ring when my commander has no generic mana in the cost, just 5 pips
Dana has this whole topic down. The major situation with running a low amount of non-basic lands is that once you've been playing a long time in ANY format (I've been playing since 4th) is that you get to work out and get used to the whole risk and reward scenario, the amount of times you're gonna get screwed over because of the vast amounts of non-basics you're playing is substantially lower then the number of times you'll put yourself in better winning positions. And with the number of games that get played if that one game where you're non-basics do get screwed over happens, congratulate the player for a good game, shuffle up and go again, because in the end it's a game you're gonna loose sometimes.
Yeah, I'm not giving up my color fixing or utility just because I _could_ run into a blood moon. I built my deck with a pipeline directly from the skittles factory in mind, and if I lose because 1 person used 1 card to sever that line, _amongst dozens of players and hundreds of cards,_ then so be it
I don't feel like you all talked much about activated abilities on permanents. My Trostani deck wants a ton of W and G mana, and often an equal share of each. I think I have 5 Lands that can't produce a color in that deck, and a lot of my ramp is ways to increase the amount of mana each land produces.
As for Landfall, if you are playing fewer than 42 lands, you need more basics.
I am personally super down on utility lands that only make colorless mana. Unless the utility is just that strong that it would be foolish not to (Karn's Bastion in various Counter-focused decks, for example), all my lands either make colored mana or get me to other lands that do make colored mana. In the Foundry of the Consuls example, 5 mana and losing one of your lands for two derpy flying 1/1s is not worth the hit to mana consistency in any token or artifact deck, unless your name is Urza and those thopters immediately replace the mana you used to make them.
I'm also super far down on lands that enter tapped, unless they do something upon entering, then it's like paying 1 mana for that effect. Bojuka Bog is a good example of this, it's basically a sorcery that reads "B: Exile target graveyard" that also turns into a swamp next turn. That works for me. Counterexample is the Temples/Scry Lands. In, say, a Gruul deck for example, would you play a sorcery that read "R/G: Scry 1"? No? Don't play Temple of Abandon then.
Edit: This is all not taking into consideration budgetary concerns. If you're pinching pennies and all you have are guildgates and artifact duals, you do what you must.
I have never regretted having Alchemist's Refuge, and I consider it one of the best non-basic lands. And I've put it in a lot of decks.
My top utility land is usually emergence zone which is very similar
Man, you haven't lived until you resolve a seedborne muse with an alchemist refuge in play. Bonus points if you're playing something that benefits playing cards on *each* turn, like Rashmi.
@@BigPapaGanda Isn't that card banned?
@@draftmagicagain1000 No? I know Prophet of Kruphix is, but Seedborne is free to abuse.
That land let's you cast spells as though they had flash, and Seedborne let's you untap everything. Prophet does both. You kinda have to build your own broken combo.
I think part of being a more experienced player is being willing to accept the trade off of losing some games for having too few basics vs winning some for having more utility effects on lands. Some decks can and will punish you for a 'greedy' land base, even if most won't and you just get to use better lands without a drawback. I run Back to Basics in my cEDH deck, Hall of Gemstone in my OG Multani deck, and a few Stax effects (Winter Orb, Static Orb, Tangle Wire etc) in decks that are designed to turn the gridlock into advantage over time, but I think I'd say most of my decks don't do stuff that affects other people's lands very much. I do run Boiling Seas and Omen of Fire in a Rakdos Chaos deck I guess, so it's worth noting that some players might actually punish you for running basic lands, mostly with old colour hosing cards.
No love for Blood Sun? It's the friendly Blood Moon. Blanks all non mana abilities on lands.
You can still use your lands for mana... just mana...
and NOTHING ELSE!
Particularly fun in Ghen^^
Honestly, I've been leaning toward mono-color decks lately, just out of frustration at the cost of fixing lands & impactful utility lands. Once you get beyond a few decks, even just the mid-tier dual land costs really start to add up. It's a feel bad re-buying $5-10 lands over & over just to hit your colors consistently. And just straight-up being priced out of things like new Boseju. Kinda feels nice just to keep it dumb & simple.
My play group is all working class dudes and we all have no issue with using a proxy for a card you already own so that you can use it for multiple decks without having to migrate it around. Then you buy that expensive card one time and can use it for all your decks.
Before watching: I see basics in my landfall deck as utilities tied to certain ramp packages like Harrow and lands like Myriad Landscape. So thankfully, I currently may run a low 38 with 15 basics in my Omnath, Locus of Creation deck. I ramp enough to see good usage despite the hard limit of landfall.
If you're in more than two colors you can run the old school ravnica bounce lands and have infinite landfall
Depending on the deck I run between 13-18 basic lands.. Seems like an alright number to me. Another nice video about deck and their mana base... But in my five color deck I run 8 used to be ten, but I swapped out some basics for a couple of the Neon Dynasty channel lands. Good stuff.
this just tells me that my ghitu deck that runs back to basics, magus of the moon, and blood moon is on the right track.
Evil comes in all shapes and sizes, occasionally as non-basic land hate
I used to count the first pip (of each color) in each card as "1" and every other pips of the same color as "0.5", then balance the land mana production off of it _and_ giving a little bit of extra push of lowly present colors
Fun Fact: For most of my 10+ years of playing Commander I've had more Sol Rings between my decks than basic Mountains.
Plot twist: you never played a deck with red
@@AdaWongMistress plot twist: he runs red but with blood moon instead just to spite those running basic mountains in red decks
I play very few utility lands, but I play a ton of duels. I think Dana is spot on with the 6 basics in a 3 color deck. This allows you to play cards like "Search for Tomorrow" "Fabled Passage" and "prismatic vista" to effectively fix your mana. Having 2 of each basic in a 3 color deck lets you get that second specific pip and cast your spells. Unless you are next level greedy like me and run "Necropotence" "LLanowar Tribe" and "Fiery Emancipation" all in the same deck... I tend to run "mana confluence" and "city of brass" in all of my 3 color decks because I do get greedy. If you run one snow basic and one regular, you also set yourself up optimally for "Field of the Dead" as well.
And yes, you will get hosed by "Blood Moon" or "Destructive Flow" or "Ruination", doing this. But it is a silly argument to say you shouldn't optimize in this way because of that. Enchantress decks get hosed by tranquility. Artifact decks get hosed by "Seeds of innocence". Oracle + Confluence gets hosed by "Stifle". Literally everything gets countered by something. And while, yes, strong mana bases are expensive, they are a very safe investment.
Love Gush in my Aesi deck. It's an all star in Minn too.
I think something that I will start thinking about is something the NitpickingNerds said, which is like "Put Field of the Dead in your spell slot, not your land slot". And I didn't totally understand that, but now I kinda do now.
If we think of Field of the Dead as more of an "enchantment" than a "land", now you start to think about "would I run this and reliably get this effect". Think of Vault of the Archangel where if this was an enchantment or artifact that just said "Pay 4 and tap, Creatures you control gain deathtouch and lifelink". then you start going "yeah this isn't worth a spell slot when I have so many other effects do the same thing in my deck". Most of my decks only run like, 33 lands but I think that if I apply this "some of my lands are spells and not lands", now I can include a few more lands because - well - they are "Spells" that add mana in a pinch, rather than lands with a spell like ability
I do run a number of basics. But aside from one deck traditionally having too many ETB tapped lands no matter what I did... I recently added Verdant Mastery and especially Traverse the Outlands to the deck in additional to the tribe elders and such. And those cards just have the potential to slurp out so many lands that I made a pass to replace a whole bunch of lands utility or not with the basics. To maybe have enough.
In Historic Brawl on Arena, you can use planeswalkers as commanders, so I have the jankiest deck ever, where I tutor the newer Vorinclex to my hand with Fierce Empath, set up cheap landfall synergies like Roaring Earth and Evolution Sage while ramping, play Goblin Charbelcher, play Vorinclex, then cast my commander, Nissa, Who Shakes the World, immediately ultimating her and putting every land in my deck on the battlefield, then activating Goblin Charbelcher to dome my opponent for 50-something damage. This requires me to run all basics except for the green MDFC lands and an alchemy gate that gets a random non-land card from your deck once per game that is also a forest and can be grabbed by Nissa. The deck is called Big Stupid because it either does that or casts Nyxbloom Ancient and X cost creature spells to ultra-Timmy.
It's also just animating lands and smacking my opponent in the face with them. Very amusing deck.
I put 90 triggers on the stack the other day between like 4 cards
I play 3 basics (1 of each type) in most of my 3 color decks. I don't think I run more than 6 basics in any decks except my mono red Neheb list! If you're playing virtually and you don't have any limit on budget, you can easily build around fetches, original duals, etc. I think if I was playing real paper (not proxies like I tend to), I would change my tune for sure.
Same, one of each in Atraxa for me, and 6 to 9 in my three color decks.
My reasoning is if I'm playing a mono red deck, I'm already at a disadvantage so I need cards like Blood Moon to catch up to green's insane ramp.
Green will ramp out basics most of the time, thus negating the upside of bloodmoon
Shout out to the signets and the "signet" lands (darkwater catacombs etc) if you're running a lot of utility lands. Even in 2+ color decks with green it could be worth running the signets. Rocks like prismatic lens are nice 2 mana rocks that can also fix your mana if needed. Last note: chromatic lantern, dryad of elysian grove, and wrenn and realmbreaker are also great!
whats a sea monsters fav meal....me thinking "SEAMEN".....wait...thats prob wrong..... great content as always guys!
I love challenge the stats. It’s fun to reconsider putting certain cards in my decks, but also wat cool to see cards I’ve never heard of and be a bit of a hipster (thanlks Dana 👍). But Matt, thank you for mentioning Gush. I have three landfall decks (yes I have a problem) that suffer from not enough card draw (I will always say I don’t have enough card draw). And I love easy ways to get cards back into my hand. I looked it up and my nearest game store has them in stock. I’ll be running over and buying one for each of my decks. Thank you thank you thank you!
For the first time in forever I was gotten by Blood Moon out of a Krenko deck yesterday, despite having 10 basics in the 3-color deck. I was a short game anyways. Most of my paper decks with 3c have 3-10 basics...
It's funny that my ashaya deck plays a lot of basics for being a mono green but always end with more non -basics on field because of the commander itself
Well that's what happens when you play a cEDH level commander. :P
I run a tatyova G/U landfall and I run back to basics and wave of vitrol for the sheer level of crippling it can cause my opponents, so not only am i accelerating with massive ramp value, but they are hobbled. I wouldnt use it outside of my old LGS meta but it is so useful.
My Ur-Dragon deck has less than 30 lands overall, maybe like 15 basics at most but I have so many ramp effects and mana rocks and cost reduce cards but also dragons that make me mana like Klauth and Savage Ventmaw I end up with turns where I have like 7+ mana open
I will say....i just had this moment i truly got to appreciate Boseiju. After the Blueplyer got manadrain on a Isochron scepter turn 2 or something. It was the most freeing draw for turn i had in my entire life
I only have 2 decks. Rafiq runs 6 basics and 8 utility lands. The rest of the mana base is all duals. Nothing comes in tapped unless it's a super early check land or a very late bond land. Very few cards need more than one of any color and its probably the most mathematically perfect mana base I've ever built. Only thing I'd add is OG duals but it took me a while to get it all together though and it wasn't cheap as it is and I ain't got the cash for that.
K'rrik is my cEDH list and runs 2 basics. A swamp and a snow covered swamp, because sometimes you just gotta mill yourself out with Tainted Pact and win with the Thassa's oracle you Preator's Grasp'd from the person playing some blue combo degeneracy. 😅 K'rrik's the kind of commander who can play fast and loose on mana though.
Joey! Feldon! mono red graveyard is best graveyard. mono red also loves basics... and dragons! Spawn of Thraxes, Fire Dragon, Ben-Ben... Ben-Ben (ok, not a dragon but who doesn't want artifact clone of Ben-Ben?!?) try playing it without a sol ring but instead a horizon stone and layline tyrant, just really lean into the explosive mana ramp and make people sweat when it doesn't leave at the end of turn... is fun😁
I love the feeling of resolving a stax piece like Blood Moon or Back to Basics against people who play tons of non-basics and utility lands. While I agree with perceived "feel bads," you must also punish players for their decadence, greed, and hedonism.
I actually have a colorless deck that only runs a single waste in case I need to go get a basic from an opponent's spell. But, with everything being colorless, I don't have a downside really as each utility land is a better waste.
My Atraxa deck has 4 basics only because I don't have any OG Duals.
3 utility lands that only produce colourless and 2 triomes that come in tapped.
Works perfectly for me ^^
I like to jam a Contamination in most of my black decks to punish lands in general.
That'll teach you for not running Mono-Black!
Loving the podcast as always, but just a note on the site: It just seems to run very slow nowadays. I understand how Javascript/HTML5 stuff is all spiffy and spangly, but whenever I add a filter and the page reloads, it sometimes just hangs for ages (it's not just my computer or network either; it happens on my tablet and phone while I'm not home as well) or doesn't load at all. Not sure why it is, but maybe you can work on the speed of the site as much as the features themselves? Because don't get me wrong, the new features, again, are awesome, but have definitely started to slow it down...
The ubiquity of great dual lands that enter untapped makes Back to Basics et al just so much better and I feel obliged to run these kinds of effects at least with a certain regularity just to keep everyone on their toes.
The same goes for other stax pieces. Commander decks are meant to be Swiss army knives at least to a certain extent. If your deck really has absolutely no way to at least temporarily get out from under a winter orb then you are doing it wrong. Not to mention if an entire Meta degenerates into "Oh well I only need Swords to Plowshares because nobody tries to lock us down anyway".
I will find you and you will feel my Magic prevention Magic 😜
Most basics I play when on non-budget is 4 (I dont play 3 color decks). 2 snow and 2 non snow. My one dimir fae deck I only play 2 basics. Only thing that graba a basic in the whole deck is demolition field. Gotta turn on field of the dead baby!
I've got a friend with a colorless deck that he didn't put any wastes in (he didn't have any and didn't want to bother getting them). It works great... until I cast winds of abandon.
The effects of treasures shouldnt be negated either.
my play groups no longer call me out for running 20+ basics in all my decks against my playgroups. i use les utility lands unless my deck has a certain thing i want it to do. that being said i run 37 to 40 lands in all my decks depending on my high cmc cards in my decks. i promise there is nothing like a darksteel collosus coming down late game and my enemies are in shock.
Play less basics. 😛The more good lands we get the less we need basics. There are ways around most of the pitfalls mentioned. A lot of it comes down to what does your deck want. Learning to brew is key.
I have a sultai deck that is so Pip-heavy that it’s need a tremendous amount of mana-fixing non-basics. The deck has only three basics: one of each. My Sakura tribe elder has whiffed a couple times now. Maybe I can jam a couple more… 🤔
I run 6 basics in my 3 color deck, three normal, 3 snow, because tainted pact is just an op card regardless of its for a combo win
Does Dana have his deck list anywhere online?
Yup yup! We have a link to our decklists page in the description! Click "Show More" to expand the full description box :)
The number of times I've won with my Firesong & Sunspeaker deck, or some of the others I run Price of Progress in, is really worth it. So play more non-basics! :)
I run even fewer basics than Dana. I usually run only one of each color in three+ color decks.
Back in the day my regular lunchtime opponent played Primal Order to keep me in check.
Primal order at least does damage.. the others just either makes it so you can't play your lands or they are mountains. Primal order punishes you in a fair way in my opinion. I didn't know that card eexisted, but I'm gonna put that in my mono green deck for sure.
And here I thought I was running too few basics in my Sylvia/Khorvath EDH deck at 19 total basics lol
love the topic.
What is this MADNESS ??? What do you MEAN you can't cast COUNTERSPELL in your Mono Blue deck??? This is Lunacy 🤯
I have a 5c dragon tribal deck, I run one of each basic ONLY because I like the amonket full art basics. Otherwise I'd run a flat zero
Not using greens land ramp spells?
@@andrewboatman669 the best green land finding spells don't get basics but duals
Nothing in my deck says anything about basics, all my ramp is tied up in artifacts or searching for land types. I think three visits is the only actual spell that does nothing but grab a land
I feel a challenge the stats coming after 19:00
IT'S JUST IN THE AIR
It didn't happen lol
I only play Bood Moon when I give my goblins mountain walk. And release them onto everyone
I routinely run a basic of each color in most of my 3 color decks.
Remember folks - a manabase full of nonbasic lands might be expensive, but Ruination is only 5 bucks
I have a Alibou, Ancient Witness commander deck with no basic lands.
I too am of the opinion you can never play enough basics. I was playing my mono black deck with Ayara as commander. My first hand consists of 2 swamps and a Witch's cottage. I figure it's worth a shot. Besides I was set up to play Gravecrawler turn 1 and Ghoulish Procession turn 2. Nothing stellar, but if I can play Ayara turn 3, I'd be set with a nice engine that lets me draw a card each turn and ping my opponents for 2.
Instead, by turn 3 I'm still stuck with Witch's Cottage and it comes into play tapped because I don't have 3 other Swamps in play.
So now I'm re-evaluating my mana base. There's 30 Swamps in the deck and 7 utility lands, but none of the utility lands would have allowed me to make a better play on turn 3 in that situation. How much would you guys play in this situation?
Honestly I would have just played the tap land first. I personally don't wait for cards like that to do the extra thing they do. Same case I make for the Zendikar flip lands. Your land count sounds fine honestly.
@@Blacklodge_Willy @Thomas van Dijk Agreed. Doing nothing turn 1 is way better than doing nothing turn 3, especially when you have as powerful of an effect as your Commander's. Politically, the tap land takes everyone's eyes off you, too, which can be an opportunity to convince 1-2 people to focus elsewhere.
Btw Last Laugh could be interesting for danas athreos deck :)
Scarab of the on seen with abundant growth in enchantress decks.
My mana fixing is sometimes just $5: world tree + crop rotation + sylvan scrying.
In white I always run 8 basic plains because of loyal warhound, keeper of the accord, archaeomancer map..
Other than that it’s always at least 6 basics even though I never play Cultivate.
The only colorless utility lands are Scavenger grounds and strip mine. There is really no place for others. Colored utilities are great though, such as bog, valakut or a simple multiple game winning shefet dunes.
Looks like primal order is going in all my mono greed decks
i know this is probably ‘too little too late’, but i only run 3 basics in my Mimeoplasm deck 😅
i have 11 basics in my 5 color niv deck, and honestly I don't know how I get away with having that many
*checks Osgir, 10 basics total.. checks out to me.
My two artifact decks have a much higher count of non basics and utility because the colorless is not as much of a drawback.
Shabraaz, that is a spicy deck for Gush. When you have 8 cards in your hand and curiosity is online, you can just go for the win.
my decks are like Dana's. I never have mana issues. i rarely have more than 5 basics. if somebody punished me then i accept. an easy L to take. i would rather have the consistency of having my colors and utility. its an easy trade off to make. i get punished 1 in 100 games. you need basics but not as many as you would think
Some of you guys have never been hit with a price of progress in a commander game and it shows.
Chromatic lantern is my friend man! So are signets
Intro volume is too damn high! Good content as always though :)
Here’s my dad joke for this episode: with spring here the best barbecue side is corn on the cob nixilis ps. You’re welcome Joey
No, I will not play more basics because it makes my hermit Druid worse :). On the real though my main argument against needing a bunch of basics in the current playing field Is how easy it is to make a ton of treasures
I run a single Wastes in my Traxos deck. Colorless commanders get to run all the utility lands 😂
100th like! I advocate more basics!
What do you MEAN 8 is not enought???
Sliver deck 5 basics 1 of each color
Tap lands vs real dual lands are not as comparable in 1 v 1. Real duals are superior. In multi-player it feels like real duals can make you a target in scrub groups. I'm preparing 3 different mana bases for my main deck. The hard version has old school duals and fetch. The light version has mainly shock lands and triomes. The third version is actually a special mana base setup to support heavy early artifact destruction and green based land ramp. (I play 5 color Tribal Najeela)
I run field of the dead in every deck other than my mono color decks so I tend to run 2 per color of basics in every deck (1 regular and 1snow) I also run tainted pact which also restricts the number of basics I can run
Fully agreed. 2-colored decks basically don't really need those Command Towers. Either a basic from 1 of those colors or even a tapped dual (assuming ran out of usable untapped 1s), would be plenty serviceable & flavorful
Matt. Alchemists refuge works when you use mana storage to float colorless for casting the spell. It works best with tools like mage ring network, where you end each turn with 1-2 mana floated as storage counters to cast a big save spell during an opponents turn.
You also need to be untapping with something like wilderness reclamation.
If you cant keep a 3 piece combo up with two lands and an enchantment, why are you even playing this game?
Again: refuge is not a vedalken orrery replacement.
It is its own niche tool, meant to fit a specific type of play style.
Buy me my $500 commander brew and ill show you how its done.
Great episode guys! I love the idea of debates. That and dad jokes, what more could a person want?😅😅
I will jam Ruination and Back to Basics until my group starts playing mono color commanders exclusively.
3:28
Please intro the others as “My Mantastic co-hosts…” moving forward.
Casting one huge spell is more fun than casting any amount of cheap boring spells.
Just my opinion and experience .
I'd even go as far as saying that's the spirit of what commander should be
This is one of the first times I have had a card in a deck that was on Challenge the Stats. Gush is so good.
Design mistake. Has been banned or restricted in multiple formats. Brokenly good.
I love people like Dana so I can slam obsidian charmaw
Wait you want me to play more basic lands? nah i like playing cards that gets me lands into my hand then playing cards like Azusa, Lost but Seeking where i can play multiple lands per turn whoops i just won T3 with Maze's End. But if only Primeval Titan was not banned in Commander and if you ask me it should not be as there are more broken cards than it and trust me Tempt with Discovery is way more broken as odds are will use it to search for a land thus netting you a possible +4 as +3 due to the opponents searching and +1 for it naturally so better ramp than Primeval Titan and Genesis Wave in any green deck is a game ender as it is 3 green and X and it has
"Reveal the top X cards of your library. You may put any number of permanent cards with converted mana cost X or less from among them onto the battlefield. Then put all cards revealed this way that weren't put onto the battlefield into your graveyard."
Note you reveal it is not counted as milling or drawing according to the rules so you don't deck out if you can't reveal. Again pretty much Genesis Wave is far stronger than Primeval Titan. And trust me trying to make a competitive Maze's End deck is hard and even more hard making it consistent because you need 10 gates however the enter tapped does not really matter if you have Arbor Elf or any creature that lets you untap lands at which point you would just need creatures like Azusa, Lost but Seeking that lets you play additional lands per turn and suddenly you have around a power level 8 Maze's End deck which on a 1-10 scale is pretty good
But we need to speed the process up so let's go ahead and put in more basic lands so we can sac them to Elvish Reclaimer and get out more gates faster because he puts any land into the battlefield tapped gates and Maze's End already enters tapped so it does not matter. What does matter is having creatures that let's us untap lands and cards that let's us play additional lands per turn thus allowing us to use Maze's End's effect multiple times per turn. Or if you want to have some fun make a bounce deck and keep bouncing Ulvenwald Hydra for it's ETB effect you can search for any land and put it onto the field tapped which Ulvenwald Hydra is the same cost as Primeval Titan yet he is not banned and actually scales the the amount of lands you have.
Turning your creatures into lands also circumvent effects such as sac a land that crop rotation requires and no don't do this with sporemound unless you can brake that infinite combo otherwise the game would be forced into a draw as lands would enter the field thus creating creatures which in turn are lands ad infinitum. Like if one adds a infinite combo into their deck they have to be careful and able to turn it off unless it is something like Sanguine bond and Exquisite blood resulting in the win of the caster once activated but results in a tie if anyone that is not the castor has a platinum angel out or a you can't lose the game card as there is no way to change the game state the game just ends. And yes there are not many search your library for non basic lands cards but you can get around that especially with cards like Ramunap Excavator or the colorless artifact both lets you play lands from the grave so you honestly don't have to worry about cards like crop rotation in fact Isochron Scepter that crop rotation as with Azusa, Lost but Seeking you are pulling 3 gates per turn
Yes Golos would be the commander for this 5 color deck if he was not banned just for his ETB and just bounce him with flicker spells that you copy. And no it does not matter if you speed the opponents up with cards like Hired Giant he is a red and 3 and reads "When Hired Giant enters the battlefield, each other player may search their library for a land card and put that card onto the battlefield. Then each player who searched their library this way shuffles." meaning more options to try and get the gates out as you can abuse bouncing fast.
The deck is mostly green due to abundance of ramp but you do need a 5 color commander because of gates but if you run a Elf engine you can run costly cards like Hour of Promise as it costs 1 green and 4 and reads "Search your library for up to two land cards, put them onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle. Then if you control three or more Deserts, create two 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens."
It is mostly the getting any 2 land cards you want is why this card is good even for its cost as again the win con is Maze's End so Kura, the Boundless Sky is also a good card as it lets you search for 3 lands and put them into your hand again this is mostly good if you have stuff that allows you to play multiple lands per turn and obviously Nylea's Intervention would be a good card to have. You know what here are some cards that allow you to search for any land that are not banned in EDH and Genesis Wave does not count as it does not search and neither does Abundance
Nylea's Intervention
Kura, the Boundless Sky
Hour of Promise
Hired Giant
Crop Rotation
Realm Seekers
Reap and Sow
Sylvan Scrying
Tempt with Discovery
Ulvenwald Hydra
Weathered Wayfarer
Knight of the Reliquary
Expedition Map
Elvish Reclaimer
Realms Uncharted
Reshape the Earth (you can get all the gates out with this one card)
Scapeshift (A mass crop rotation if you will)
Beseech the Queen (a lands cmc is 0 so you can search it)
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Disciple of Deceit (if you happen to discard a 0 cost artifact such as lotus petal it will allow you to search for a land as cmc is 0)
What's insane is there being that many cards that let's you search for any land almost as much as cards that behave exactly the same as Timetwister so have those and cards that allow you to play additional lands per turn, suddenly people are not going to want to play against your Maze's End deck especially when you start to add actual tutors into the mix such as demonic or diabolic even vampiric. But the thing you must do first is think of the engine you are going to use obviously Green Elves are the main ones and you would have Fastbond so you can just search and play any lands that 1 damage is worth it. But if you have a black engine as a side you can then send lands from the deck to the grave so you can Ramunap Excavator them later but there are some other stuff you can do as well with the other colors and simic is one of the strongest.
Note only the commander has the be 5 colors otherwise you can not run all of the gates or at least 10 different ones to win with Maze's End as again that is your win con and with Ramunap Excavator it is always a threat as they have to exile the lands to beat the win con
Oh i should also note Magus of the Candelabra with Umbral mantle will allow you to untap all of your lands that enter tap through an infinite combo with Nissa, who shakes the world as any forest you tap for mana you get another green mana and you tap X and magus to untap X lands with Umbral Mantle it has a untap ability meaning it works if the creature is tapped as it does Equipped creature has "3, Untap: This creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn."
Its a neat little infinite mana combo any mana doubling effect would work for it also Umbral mantle has a equip cost of 0 so with a convoluted way you can get 3 of your creatures to basically have infinite attack and defense and win that way. This is a good backup encase they actually prevent you from being able to win with Maze's End
I like basics. Simple, reliable and basicly free