The ribbon definitely tames that top end and gives a little more body to the guitars over all sound! I think similar to what you said, it’s not black and white. In my experience, sometimes a brighter guitar with less “meat” to it sits better in a mix like what the 57 has. That being said there’s then also the option of using both and blending them to taste! Just thought I’d drop my two cents from my experience here. Great work man!
very great comparisons. thank you for using the same riff back to back so we can actually compare how identical sonic information is picked up differently. also, the compensated test is important because of how valuable it is to match microphone to ideal placement
I actually prefer the Audio Technica AT4081 over the Royer 121, but I would never use either of those without something like the Shure SM57, because even though the ribbons do sound better in a situation like this, when guitar is ALL you hear, we both know that in most cases the guitar will sit in a mix with a whole bunch of other instruments. Using just a ribbon mic will muddy up the sound and you won't be able to get much of the definition in the high end back by filtering away the low end. Two mics should be enough though. I remember a Dutch guy (Erwin Musper) who worked with guitarists and bands like Van Halen, Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, The Scorpions, Metallica, Jeff Beck, Elton John, Chicago (just to name the most famous ones) and lots of other (Dutch) bands as well. I don't know the guy personally, but he wrote about his work in a monthly music magazine and that's how I know how he would record the electric guitar: he would set up a number of different amps (say three or four) and then he would place two mics before each amp, like you did with the Audio Technica and the Shure. Then he would use another mic, one or two foot away from each amp, and then he would use some room mics as well. I have no idea what mics he used for what purposes, but that's what he did. It would take him literally hours and hours to carefully position every mic in such a way that it didn't cause phasing issues and other problems. It's a hell of a job, but someone's got to do it (I guess 😂 ). Off course, this seems like a bit too much in many, many ways. And it was. However, it did have some great advantages as well, because once everything was set up perfectly, he would have each mic (could be 12 to 16 mics) running through a single channel for every single mic. And here's the good part...., he wouldn't use the eq, or anything to affect the sound. All he needed to do was using the faders to create the perfect sound. The faders, or the pure tone of every single mic, functioned as eq controls. He thought it gave him the most realistic guitar sound and it was easy (his words, not mine!) to get the perfect mix. Off course the music industry changed and his way of working became waaaaay too expensive (I assume), so it didn't last for decades, but still. All I wanted to point out is the fact that there are some good reasons and advantages to use more than just one mic if you have the means to do it. 😁
I know ribbons sound nicer on guitar cabs. However, dynamic mics help the guitar to sit better in a full band mix. Plus you can edit the sound of the dynamic mic to sound darker
@@LivingroomGearDemos depends on the mix too I guess. I just like having the flexibility of that extra top end that the dynamics have. That being said, for heavier guitar tones the ribbon certainly offers more flexibility in the low end
The 1st test really felt like you had a blanket over the ribbon mic and the 57 sounded much brighter and clear. After the other comparisons, you can definitely tell mic placement is huge. Great video as always.
ribbon mics have been a revelation for me recording guitar. i never quite gelled with dynamics or condensers on amps - tube mics have great low end but even they can feel pokey at certain guitar frequencies. ribbons are so beautifully flat and natural in the upper mids and highs, and you can EQ and compress and distort the hell out of them without them sounding overcooked.
I know it's annoying to set up two mics but blending the dynamic and ribbon is really where the magic happens. You have to get them in phase but when they're working together it's a much bigger sound than either alone. Also, there's way more to dynamic mics for guitar than the SM57, it's really worth it to experiment.
yeah, it's worth it, absolutely. And yeah, I own several dynamic mics that I use on cabs. My favorite is the Lewitt MTP440, but I used the SM57 as an example since most people own that.
They're both great, really. It's all a matter of taste, like you said. You can definitely hear the rolled off tone of the ribbon, and the top end edge of the dynamic. I can see myself using either, depending on what I'm working on. I'd love to hear a good recommendation of a nice ribbon for under £130 if anyone knows of one.
I think in a mix, having more highs is just better, the ribbon mic tends to slip into muddy territory, which idk isn't as nice with everything else going on too
It really depends on the tone aim, and the speaker. I personally think the 57 is great for a lot of gritty/hi gain tones, and for clean tones not so much
On its own, yeah, not the best. It’s too shrill in a position where you’d get the best detail. I prefer darker mics so I can get closer to the cap and catch all that detail without it sounding like shit.
the Royer sounded worse than the AT to me actually. Maybe it would be good for micing up a bass or something, but i thought the AT sounded more clear and usable, personally. There was maybe a tiny bit of perceived warmth and low end in the Royer, and maybe a tiny bit more dynamic volume in the lows? Maybe after EQing to bring in a bit more highs it would be preferable, but not +600$ preferrable lol
Hi Can we use ribbons in live situations, gigs, like combining sm57 for cab micing. Do ribbons captures unwanted sounds ? from drums or other instruments or singers ? Or do they only good for silent home recording
You mention compensating placement but not how you are positioning them. Is the ribbon centered and the SM57 a few inches off center as your optimal locations?
I'm not usually one for hearing huge differences between a lot of these gear choices, but man I'm really hearing a big EQ change between the ribbon and the condenser mics...
ironically my favorite setup for recording my guitar is 3 different mics 1 SM 57mics and 2 drum mics DM1.1025 and a DM1.101 between 2 cabs but I'm gunna try and get some ribbon mics one day and try this out, heres the tone I'm currently getting, th-cam.com/video/bW9flfzaRJY/w-d-xo.html Thanks for the video and info! definitely considering it!
I hate sm57’s so much. Yes many great recordings used them but when you’re not a rockstar caliber musician you need some help from a better mic in my opinion.
Not gonna watch the video because it's based off an opinion stated as fact, which is just wrong. Only dropped in to say that if ribbons were the "best" way to record guitar, it would clearly be the most common way to record. Anyone who has ever read 5 minutes worth of material on recording guitars knows this is not the case. "Best" is totally subjective, but that aside, there is no denying that dynamic mics are way more commonly used on guitar cabs, because in a mix, ribbons rarely win.
He is looking at this through the lens of getting good sounds for pedal demos and that sort of thing. Where ribbon mics win for sure for most guitar players. In an actual guitar mix I agree you want a less "amp in the room" sound than here. Less bass for cut for the mix
Audio-Technica AT4081 at Sweetwater: imp.i114863.net/rnL1mB
The ribbon definitely tames that top end and gives a little more body to the guitars over all sound! I think similar to what you said, it’s not black and white. In my experience, sometimes a brighter guitar with less “meat” to it sits better in a mix like what the 57 has. That being said there’s then also the option of using both and blending them to taste! Just thought I’d drop my two cents from my experience here. Great work man!
What about adding a condenser mic?
@@frankpiccirillo3972 Those are good for room mics!
very great comparisons. thank you for using the same riff back to back so we can actually compare how identical sonic information is picked up differently. also, the compensated test is important because of how valuable it is to match microphone to ideal placement
Thanks for checking out the video!
I actually prefer the Audio Technica AT4081 over the Royer 121, but I would never use either of those without something like the Shure SM57, because even though the ribbons do sound better in a situation like this, when guitar is ALL you hear, we both know that in most cases the guitar will sit in a mix with a whole bunch of other instruments. Using just a ribbon mic will muddy up the sound and you won't be able to get much of the definition in the high end back by filtering away the low end. Two mics should be enough though.
I remember a Dutch guy (Erwin Musper) who worked with guitarists and bands like Van Halen, Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, The Scorpions, Metallica, Jeff Beck, Elton John, Chicago (just to name the most famous ones) and lots of other (Dutch) bands as well.
I don't know the guy personally, but he wrote about his work in a monthly music magazine and that's how I know how he would record the electric guitar: he would set up a number of different amps (say three or four) and then he would place two mics before each amp, like you did with the Audio Technica and the Shure. Then he would use another mic, one or two foot away from each amp, and then he would use some room mics as well. I have no idea what mics he used for what purposes, but that's what he did. It would take him literally hours and hours to carefully position every mic in such a way that it didn't cause phasing issues and other problems. It's a hell of a job, but someone's got to do it (I guess 😂 ). Off course, this seems like a bit too much in many, many ways. And it was. However, it did have some great advantages as well, because once everything was set up perfectly, he would have each mic (could be 12 to 16 mics) running through a single channel for every single mic. And here's the good part...., he wouldn't use the eq, or anything to affect the sound. All he needed to do was using the faders to create the perfect sound. The faders, or the pure tone of every single mic, functioned as eq controls. He thought it gave him the most realistic guitar sound and it was easy (his words, not mine!) to get the perfect mix.
Off course the music industry changed and his way of working became waaaaay too expensive (I assume), so it didn't last for decades, but still.
All I wanted to point out is the fact that there are some good reasons and advantages to use more than just one mic if you have the means to do it. 😁
Really appreciate this comparison! Very insightful and you may have sold me on the AT 🤙🏼
I know ribbons sound nicer on guitar cabs. However, dynamic mics help the guitar to sit better in a full band mix. Plus you can edit the sound of the dynamic mic to sound darker
I actually like how ribbons sit better in the mix. That's why I often tend to only use a ribbon, no dynamic mics, on a lot of recordings.
@@LivingroomGearDemos depends on the mix too I guess. I just like having the flexibility of that extra top end that the dynamics have. That being said, for heavier guitar tones the ribbon certainly offers more flexibility in the low end
I’m a big fan of my Cascade Fathead with Lundahl transformer blended with my JZ audio HH1. Ribbon mixed with a good dynamic is they way to go for me.
Same for me, the Fathead + SM7b
haven't tried any of those yet!
The 1st test really felt like you had a blanket over the ribbon mic and the 57 sounded much brighter and clear. After the other comparisons, you can definitely tell mic placement is huge. Great video as always.
Thanks Jesse!
This is one of "the" best videos I've ever seen. Thank you for this! Simple + detailed = Genius :-)
Thanks a lot!
ribbon mics have been a revelation for me recording guitar. i never quite gelled with dynamics or condensers on amps - tube mics have great low end but even they can feel pokey at certain guitar frequencies. ribbons are so beautifully flat and natural in the upper mids and highs, and you can EQ and compress and distort the hell out of them without them sounding overcooked.
Couldn't agree more! Thanks for checking out the video!
I know it's annoying to set up two mics but blending the dynamic and ribbon is really where the magic happens. You have to get them in phase but when they're working together it's a much bigger sound than either alone. Also, there's way more to dynamic mics for guitar than the SM57, it's really worth it to experiment.
yeah, it's worth it, absolutely. And yeah, I own several dynamic mics that I use on cabs. My favorite is the Lewitt MTP440, but I used the SM57 as an example since most people own that.
They're both great, really. It's all a matter of taste, like you said. You can definitely hear the rolled off tone of the ribbon, and the top end edge of the dynamic. I can see myself using either, depending on what I'm working on. I'd love to hear a good recommendation of a nice ribbon for under £130 if anyone knows of one.
check out Stagg and SE Electronics.
I think in a mix, having more highs is just better, the ribbon mic tends to slip into muddy territory, which idk isn't as nice with everything else going on too
Do you have any special acoustic treatment in your studio? Sounds so good!!!
I recommend the brazilian mics from oldbox. Great sounding tape mics for almost everything.
cool, will check them out!
And I always thought I was the weirdo for liking ribbon. I don't have one, but IRs do the same job.
Thanks for the video
awesome , I learned a lot, thank you
Glad to hear it!
I'm one of the few people that think sm57 sounds awful on cabs.
In some cases, yeah, I agree
It really depends on the tone aim, and the speaker. I personally think the 57 is great for a lot of gritty/hi gain tones, and for clean tones not so much
On its own, yeah, not the best. It’s too shrill in a position where you’d get the best detail. I prefer darker mics so I can get closer to the cap and catch all that detail without it sounding like shit.
Damn those are some nice tones. Always love your videos. What font is that that you’re using throughout the video? It’s really cool and vintage
Thanks General! I think it's called Niagara. I need to confirm that though
Can you do a MONO condenser cardiod microphone testing for guitar playing and upright piano
the Royer sounded worse than the AT to me actually. Maybe it would be good for micing up a bass or something, but i thought the AT sounded more clear and usable, personally. There was maybe a tiny bit of perceived warmth and low end in the Royer, and maybe a tiny bit more dynamic volume in the lows? Maybe after EQing to bring in a bit more highs it would be preferable, but not +600$ preferrable lol
Yeah, I'm hearing more highs in the AT now actually. I prefer the AT over the Royer.
Hi Can we use ribbons in live situations, gigs, like combining sm57 for cab micing. Do ribbons captures unwanted sounds ? from drums or other instruments or singers ? Or do they only good for silent home recording
You mention compensating placement but not how you are positioning them. Is the ribbon centered and the SM57 a few inches off center as your optimal locations?
I'm not usually one for hearing huge differences between a lot of these gear choices, but man I'm really hearing a big EQ change between the ribbon and the condenser mics...
The comparison in this video was with a dynamic mic,not a condenser/capacitor.
All of Van Halen 1 was recorder with a SM57. That is the best mic for recording guitar
ironically my favorite setup for recording my guitar is 3 different mics 1 SM 57mics and 2 drum mics DM1.1025 and a DM1.101 between 2 cabs but I'm gunna try and get some ribbon mics one day and try this out, heres the tone I'm currently getting, th-cam.com/video/bW9flfzaRJY/w-d-xo.html Thanks for the video and info! definitely considering it!
For really cheap version of this, get a sm57 and a shure beta 52a. tape them together an mix 60% 57 and 40% the beta. And voillaaa melt faces.
hm, interesting!
It's funny that for me it sounded like SM was the best, AT second and Royer the last one. Am I weird?
hah, no. Each to their own I guess. People are also very tuned into the sounds of SM57's because they are so common.
What mic pre?
audient id44
@ yall who aint having success w dynamics on guitar. vintage electro-voice. any of them. yw
I hate sm57’s so much. Yes many great recordings used them but when you’re not a rockstar caliber musician you need some help from a better mic in my opinion.
R121 is darker
yup, at least on driven tones
the ribbons both sound muddy
Call me weird, but I cannot stand how an SM 57 sounds on guitar.
I don't think you're alone
Not gonna watch the video because it's based off an opinion stated as fact, which is just wrong. Only dropped in to say that if ribbons were the "best" way to record guitar, it would clearly be the most common way to record. Anyone who has ever read 5 minutes worth of material on recording guitars knows this is not the case. "Best" is totally subjective, but that aside, there is no denying that dynamic mics are way more commonly used on guitar cabs, because in a mix, ribbons rarely win.
He is looking at this through the lens of getting good sounds for pedal demos and that sort of thing. Where ribbon mics win for sure for most guitar players. In an actual guitar mix I agree you want a less "amp in the room" sound than here. Less bass for cut for the mix