I would say this is absolutely what makes the Americans in Black Sea so deadly. Yeah they generally have better optics and spotting, but the ability to communicate and share information for the Americans in both SF and BS far far outstrips that of Redfor. Hell even in the WW2 titles the Allies (minus the soviets) have a pretty clear advantage in terms of amount of radios. Those Willy Jeep’s are a excellent pick to tag along larger infantry formations.
I’ve been playing CM for more than a decade and this is the first I’ve learned of the ability of units to communicate with each other outside of their chains of command. This has huge tactical consequences, especially for radioless scouts. Thanks, Hapless!
One of the most complicated subjects to tackle in CM and you handled it flawlessly. This will be my go to video when attempting to explain C2 in the future!
Thanks much, very good information. This is one of the many features of Combat Mission that makes it soooo GREAT to play. Please do more of these informative videos.
Well presented and informative as Usual Hapless! I think it would be a great idea for Battlefront to link to these videos to get new players up to speed quickly to start enjoying the game. One thing that is very cool to see that I may add is as turreted vehicles get the spot info sometimes you will see them start to orientate the gun in the direction of the spot even though it does not have visual yet. It's just another aspect of the game that sets it apart than anything else out there.
Check out the demos before you buy anything. The benefits of it being 10 years old is that Battlefront still follows old business practices and keeps them on their website!
This was fantastic and taught me so much about the game I had been wondering for a while. I’m so bad for not reading instructions, so your videos make my life a lot easier
Thanks, that has really helped, you have a great way of explaining things and at 70 years old even I can understand it now. Keep them coming, always enjoy your vids.
Thank you for this. Communication is one thing that I'm always overlooking. I have often thought it would be nice to have ultra realistic C2, to the point where you couldn't give orders to units that were out of contact, or even see what they're doing or what they see. This would require designating one of the officers on the map to be "you", as there would need to be a point in the C2 chain from which your orders are coming from and to which all the spotting information you can see is making its way to. And it would require a very good AI, to handle the actions of troops that you can't give orders to. But it would definitely get me over my bad habits of ignoring communication very quickly. Your units wouldn't react to their orders until those orders had passed down the C2 chain from "you" to them. And you wouldn't even be able to see enemy units until the spotting information about them had passed up the C2 chain from the unit that spotted them to "you". This sort of command and information delay would require a very different game than Combat Mission, since micromanagement would no longer be possible. You would have to be able to issue more general orders, with subordinate AI commanders needing to work out the specifics based on circumstances that are too localized in space and time for you to be able to react to with the communication lag. It would be asking the player to give up a certain amount of control over the battlefield (it would be asking the player to experience the same difficulties as a real commander). Which is something I would be perfectly fine with, but I wonder how many players like me are out there?
It becomes tricky because in CM the player is simultaneously every leader at the same time, not just the one at the top. Subordinate leaders aren't automatons- they may do things without orders etc, which would be hard to model. What would be really interesting would be to play a distributed CM game where you have (for example) one player per platoon, and they can only communicate in the methods their pixeltruppen can.
Command Ops 2 could be this kind of game for you. It has a different scale, so you command a larger amount of troops and their are represented as counters.
It would be kind of fun to have a game like CM where those rules apply but every officer can be a player. Not sure how the whole turn based system would work out but it certainly sounds interesting.
Nice. Though I wish you had gone into more detail about communication in the modern titles and how important or unimportant maintaining direct line-of-sight and "shouty" communication is when almost all squads have a radio.
He did go into detail about the effects of having your hq units close to your units to give them morale bonus. So that will apply to the modern titles as well. The radios and tools used for communication is pretty much just for passing contact spots and confirmed targets across the units. In modern titles you can afford to split up your units more and still keep contact at greater distances compared to ww2 titles. But overall keeping squads close together maintaining bonuses from hq is still going to be the best way to maintain quick sharing of information and morale.
Thank you for all the content on CM. I stumbled upon this game about a week ago, and your channel shortly after looking for more information on it. Your content convinced me to buy Black Sea and I've been binging your videos to help with long process of learning the ins and outs and trying to get decent at it.
Great video! This is the aspect of combat mission that I struggle the most with. I'm currently playing CMFI and often struggle when needing to call in mortars and arty. I'm often informed that my spotters have no contact with the mortars so hopefully this'll help me figure out what I'm doing wrong.
A good tip is to keep your mortars with a unit that has a a radio. This can either be with their commander that should have one, or I like to keep a vehicle with a radio with them. Put mortars in triangular formation (if 3) and put jeep in middle. The mortars will use the jeeps radio to be in contact with spotter then you're good to go.
@@vinnart yes this is what I usually do but I did have a strange situation the other day that had me stumped. Basically I had my spotters peeking over a ridge and their command team was a few meters behind them keeping out of sight of the enemy. The command team had a radio and then further back I had 3 mortar teams set up in a triangle with their command team in the middle also with a radio. I tried using the spotters to call in a mortar strike but the on map mortars showed as 'no contact'. I assumed that info would be passed from the spotters to their command team verbally then via radio from one command team to the other then verbally again to the mortar teams but the game was having none of it.
Excellent video and presentation. Most of this I knew just from playing, but the cross-organization communication I thought worked completely differently (I was obviously very wrong). Thank you so much for correcting my understanding, it will change the way I approach unit positioning/locations in missions.
I will add that the Default for the Nivida Geforce in game pop up pannel is also ALT Z and will over ride the in game. I had to change the Geforce Default to another function key.
I had no idea that this was going on behind the scenes in CM, this adds a whole new dimension in play! Kinda want to experiment with scenarios where this is an factor. Any recomendations?
Going by 7:50, is intel stateful between units? i.e. Should HQ units patrol around and spread intel between scattered units if you cannot maintain stable links?
So question: Does a unit with a contact spot have an increased chance of confirming the contact? As in, will they immediately see it whenever they come into view without having to re-spot it? How do contacts work tactically?
Think of this as IRL. Someone tells you that there is an enemy truck near a blue building with a short fence. You wont know where exactly that is until you see it, but you will know where to look at and you will find it faster, than if you did not get told about it.
At this point, the only thing I am confused about is why are my units in modern titles sometimes losing link despite having a radio. It's like they refuse to use it sometimes. I wonder if they can't use it on the move either.
Does it always have to be the headquarters of a unit that shares information with the rest of the squad? The scenario I'm looking at is that I have a recon humvee sitting next to a bradley and they spotted some enemy troops. Would I have to open up the bradley so the recon humvee can share that information to them or would it still be radioed through the hq to get that info shared?
So from what I understand, having a unit/squad lose communication to superiors will degrade their combat effectiveness but does that mean I won't be able to give them orders anymore ?
another good basics video! Really like them. but there is one thing i dont understand. when im playing, my units usually take a LOT more time to share informations. I dont know really why that is, it even takes very long when they are close together. i think it may have something to do with the difficulty level (im SP only), but cant confirm that.
Does communication affect anything outside of spotting contacts? I'm used to Graviteam, where if you lose communication with a squad, it can take several minutes before they follow an order because there's a "chain of command" system for every click you make in the game. An AT squad lost on the other side of town might have no idea you want them to face the other direction to knock out an APC because no CO on screen is able to tell them to do that, even if you've clicked all the right buttons. In other words, if I send a lone rifleman to the other side of the map with no radio, and then give him orders, will he still follow them immediately?
He will still follow them immediately. In short, there isn't a perfect solution here. Its clearly not possible for a CO to communicate with a lone rifleman who is out of contact, but it's also clearly implausible for a lone rifleman to exercise no initiative whatsoever. In CM, it's best to consider yourself the pixeltruppen hive mind, rather than some kind of distant commander.
@@usuallyhapless9481 Interesting, thank you so much for the response! Over the last year or so, I've watched just about every video you've put out about CM, some of them multiple times. Love the channel man, it's not just extremely helpful but also really fun to listen to your breakdowns of the battles you upload.
Usually I mean a unit that isn't part of a standard organisation. So if I had a platoon and added a mortar team to it, the mortar team would be an attachment.
They can PID targets faster if someone else has spotted them first, plus they get some leadership bonuses. Comms are also needed to call for on/off map artillery support, CAS etc
Am I the only one that find it wrong that my soviets platoon leader can call in off map or on map artillery even without being equip with a radio or close to someone with one ? Is it a bug ?
my only question is when the information is passed down and other units get the contact markers does that make them spot them faster or do they just simply know about it then and thats it
yea i was also wandering about this because if that would not be the case, then the whole concept of communication links would be useful just for roleplaying purposes. Still I would gladly see some video about how units without contact info are spotting their targets vs how units with contact info are spotting theirs
is this confirmed? i had a situation where one of my scout cars didnt spot a tank for MINUTES even though it had the information an LOS. Of course i cant really tell if it would have been different without the shared information
Hi! First of all, thank you for your videos. I was too overwhelmed to get into CM but thanks to you I finally decided to get started. Second of all, can you please make a video about differences between WeGo and Real Time types of combat? Pros\cons of each one and tactical advantages\disadvantages between the two. Again, thank you for your videos!
Hey Hapless, how active is the multiplayer community? I want to get into the game but I really can't justify dropping $80 per 8 year old games running on a 15 year old engine.
This is all well and good..but...so what? Does the game limit you from running up the clueless Shreck team? There is no delay penalty, The player has abused the Borg as always. I had an idea for the Iron Mode, making command more Realistic, but most players are hard wired to being Borg-Boys. And, battlefront is just rehashing the current product and looking for Military Bucks now.
In the old Close Combat games you could show circles which indicated the leadership coverage of a command team. If other units were within the bubble then they reacted better to orders. Does CM have this feature?
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
Battlefront really should skip their written tutorials and just pay you to make these. Wonderfully explained as usual.
That's what I've been saying the whole time. He leaves no real grey area like the manual does
Bohemia interactive did this with Dslyecxi for arma 3. Really nice way to get people to understand the game.
I would say this is absolutely what makes the Americans in Black Sea so deadly. Yeah they generally have better optics and spotting, but the ability to communicate and share information for the Americans in both SF and BS far far outstrips that of Redfor. Hell even in the WW2 titles the Allies (minus the soviets) have a pretty clear advantage in terms of amount of radios. Those Willy Jeep’s are a excellent pick to tag along larger infantry formations.
I mean historically the fact Panzer units had radios in every tank proved to be one of the vital reasons for their victory in 1940 France.
I’ve been playing CM for more than a decade and this is the first I’ve learned of the ability of units to communicate with each other outside of their chains of command. This has huge tactical consequences, especially for radioless scouts. Thanks, Hapless!
Always remember to tell your platoon commander/Captain how you want cursed at BEFORE combat. It simplifies communication and he takes requests.
One of the most complicated subjects to tackle in CM and you handled it flawlessly. This will be my go to video when attempting to explain C2 in the future!
Thanks much, very good information. This is one of the many features of Combat Mission that makes it soooo GREAT to play. Please do more of these informative videos.
Well presented and informative as Usual Hapless! I think it would be a great idea for Battlefront to link to these videos to get new players up to speed quickly to start enjoying the game.
One thing that is very cool to see that I may add is as turreted vehicles get the spot info sometimes you will see them start to orientate the gun in the direction of the spot even though it does not have visual yet. It's just another aspect of the game that sets it apart than anything else out there.
Hap, whatever you've changed with the audio is REALLY making a difference here. You sound very smooth, great job!
Good to know man! Just a couple more minutes messing with the audio in audacity.
These videos are gonna make me spend 60 dollars on a 10 year old RTS game I can’t stop watching!
You won’t stop at one, trust me on that
I just bought my first one and am already thinking about getting a WW2 setting version...
Check out the demos before you buy anything. The benefits of it being 10 years old is that Battlefront still follows old business practices and keeps them on their website!
check the official site occasionally, sometimes they do offer a bit of a discount. Its never on sale at Steam
It is worth it.
you need to be on BATTLEFRONTs pay roll. you show this game in the best light.
Man out here saving me from combat mission incompetence. Great video as always!
Another day, another UH video. Life is good.
Hapless uploads make any day a good day.
Your videos are real treasure for CM community, keep them coming!
This was fantastic and taught me so much about the game I had been wondering for a while. I’m so bad for not reading instructions, so your videos make my life a lot easier
Thanks, that has really helped, you have a great way of explaining things and at 70 years old even I can understand it now. Keep them coming, always enjoy your vids.
This is why I love Battlefront, details.... always in the details. Excellent level of detail and explanation Hapless!
been watching a lot of your old pvp vids. Would love to see more in the future
Next video should be a PVP game
Thank you for this. Communication is one thing that I'm always overlooking. I have often thought it would be nice to have ultra realistic C2, to the point where you couldn't give orders to units that were out of contact, or even see what they're doing or what they see. This would require designating one of the officers on the map to be "you", as there would need to be a point in the C2 chain from which your orders are coming from and to which all the spotting information you can see is making its way to. And it would require a very good AI, to handle the actions of troops that you can't give orders to. But it would definitely get me over my bad habits of ignoring communication very quickly.
Your units wouldn't react to their orders until those orders had passed down the C2 chain from "you" to them. And you wouldn't even be able to see enemy units until the spotting information about them had passed up the C2 chain from the unit that spotted them to "you". This sort of command and information delay would require a very different game than Combat Mission, since micromanagement would no longer be possible. You would have to be able to issue more general orders, with subordinate AI commanders needing to work out the specifics based on circumstances that are too localized in space and time for you to be able to react to with the communication lag. It would be asking the player to give up a certain amount of control over the battlefield (it would be asking the player to experience the same difficulties as a real commander). Which is something I would be perfectly fine with, but I wonder how many players like me are out there?
There are lots of people who play with self-enforce rulesets like that. Definitely adds a whole new layer of challenge to the game.
It becomes tricky because in CM the player is simultaneously every leader at the same time, not just the one at the top.
Subordinate leaders aren't automatons- they may do things without orders etc, which would be hard to model.
What would be really interesting would be to play a distributed CM game where you have (for example) one player per platoon, and they can only communicate in the methods their pixeltruppen can.
there is a game: Gravitation mius front
Command Ops 2 could be this kind of game for you. It has a different scale, so you command a larger amount of troops and their are represented as counters.
It would be kind of fun to have a game like CM where those rules apply but every officer can be a player.
Not sure how the whole turn based system would work out but it certainly sounds interesting.
Wonderful video as always
Nice. Though I wish you had gone into more detail about communication in the modern titles and how important or unimportant maintaining direct line-of-sight and "shouty" communication is when almost all squads have a radio.
He did go into detail about the effects of having your hq units close to your units to give them morale bonus. So that will apply to the modern titles as well. The radios and tools used for communication is pretty much just for passing contact spots and confirmed targets across the units. In modern titles you can afford to split up your units more and still keep contact at greater distances compared to ww2 titles. But overall keeping squads close together maintaining bonuses from hq is still going to be the best way to maintain quick sharing of information and morale.
Thank you for all the content on CM. I stumbled upon this game about a week ago, and your channel shortly after looking for more information on it. Your content convinced me to buy Black Sea and I've been binging your videos to help with long process of learning the ins and outs and trying to get decent at it.
No other videos put the magic under the hood of combat mission into such clarity. Should be getting a full time wage from battlefront.
Very informative as always. Knew most of it but it clarified the process. Didn’t know the process with scout teams however!
Great video! This is the aspect of combat mission that I struggle the most with. I'm currently playing CMFI and often struggle when needing to call in mortars and arty. I'm often informed that my spotters have no contact with the mortars so hopefully this'll help me figure out what I'm doing wrong.
A good tip is to keep your mortars with a unit that has a a radio. This can either be with their commander that should have one, or I like to keep a vehicle with a radio with them. Put mortars in triangular formation (if 3) and put jeep in middle. The mortars will use the jeeps radio to be in contact with spotter then you're good to go.
@@vinnart yes this is what I usually do but I did have a strange situation the other day that had me stumped. Basically I had my spotters peeking over a ridge and their command team was a few meters behind them keeping out of sight of the enemy. The command team had a radio and then further back I had 3 mortar teams set up in a triangle with their command team in the middle also with a radio. I tried using the spotters to call in a mortar strike but the on map mortars showed as 'no contact'. I assumed that info would be passed from the spotters to their command team verbally then via radio from one command team to the other then verbally again to the mortar teams but the game was having none of it.
There’s a very simple fix. Play as the americans
Lots to learn, cheers for breaking it down in a concise manner :)
Thank you for another highly informative and useful video :)
Excellent video and presentation. Most of this I knew just from playing, but the cross-organization communication I thought worked completely differently (I was obviously very wrong). Thank you so much for correcting my understanding, it will change the way I approach unit positioning/locations in missions.
Well that was insightful. Thank you.
Great vid. Keep it up!
What? No carrier pigeons?? :)
Excellent video. Thanks.
I prefer lewd language and harsh hand gestures, but I'm a lover, not a fighter.
This is very cool. Never knew about this.
Thank you!
I will add that the Default for the Nivida Geforce in game pop up pannel is also ALT Z and will over ride the in game. I had to change the Geforce Default to another function key.
I had no idea that this was going on behind the scenes in CM, this adds a whole new dimension in play! Kinda want to experiment with scenarios where this is an factor. Any recomendations?
Good question. I'll have to test that.
I've been playing since 2016 and I never knew about the Alt-Z thing until I watched this video.
Oh yeah. Here we go
Good stuff! Have you considered also linking to Josey Wales’ videos on C2?
That would be a good move.
Great video! You could probably spend an hour on this one.
Just in time for the new version of the hard-cat rules, feels like cheating playing with out them (with a sprinkling of the friction rules thrown in).
I need to get round to playing the Hard Cat rules
@@usuallyhapless9481
Makes for a better game.
didn't know soldiers can run to tankers as a message carrier
For vehicles that can't "open up" like BTR's in Cold War, is there no way to share contact info by voice to nearby units?
Okay but now tell us more about the lewd hand gestures
The signal for "Double, On Me" was always a good one
Thanks
Could you do a video on Armoured/Scout Cars please? I'm a bit confused on how to use them (both in WW2 and modern games).
Going by 7:50, is intel stateful between units? i.e. Should HQ units patrol around and spread intel between scattered units if you cannot maintain stable links?
Potentially. It depends on the circumstances.
So question:
Does a unit with a contact spot have an increased chance of confirming the contact? As in, will they immediately see it whenever they come into view without having to re-spot it? How do contacts work tactically?
Think of this as IRL.
Someone tells you that there is an enemy truck near a blue building with a short fence. You wont know where exactly that is until you see it, but you will know where to look at and you will find it faster, than if you did not get told about it.
At this point, the only thing I am confused about is why are my units in modern titles sometimes losing link despite having a radio. It's like they refuse to use it sometimes. I wonder if they can't use it on the move either.
I've spotted that. I think it is movement that breaks the link.
Does it always have to be the headquarters of a unit that shares information with the rest of the squad? The scenario I'm looking at is that I have a recon humvee sitting next to a bradley and they spotted some enemy troops. Would I have to open up the bradley so the recon humvee can share that information to them or would it still be radioed through the hq to get that info shared?
So from what I understand, having a unit/squad lose communication to superiors will degrade their combat effectiveness but does that mean I won't be able to give them orders anymore ?
As long as units aren't panicking, you can give them orders. The player is more like a pixeltruppen hive mind than a commanding officer
another good basics video! Really like them.
but there is one thing i dont understand. when im playing, my units usually take a LOT more time to share informations. I dont know really why that is, it even takes very long when they are close together. i think it may have something to do with the difficulty level (im SP only), but cant confirm that.
The speed can depend on a lot of factors, from experience to morale to suppression etc
Does communication affect anything outside of spotting contacts? I'm used to Graviteam, where if you lose communication with a squad, it can take several minutes before they follow an order because there's a "chain of command" system for every click you make in the game. An AT squad lost on the other side of town might have no idea you want them to face the other direction to knock out an APC because no CO on screen is able to tell them to do that, even if you've clicked all the right buttons.
In other words, if I send a lone rifleman to the other side of the map with no radio, and then give him orders, will he still follow them immediately?
He will still follow them immediately.
In short, there isn't a perfect solution here. Its clearly not possible for a CO to communicate with a lone rifleman who is out of contact, but it's also clearly implausible for a lone rifleman to exercise no initiative whatsoever.
In CM, it's best to consider yourself the pixeltruppen hive mind, rather than some kind of distant commander.
@@usuallyhapless9481 Interesting, thank you so much for the response! Over the last year or so, I've watched just about every video you've put out about CM, some of them multiple times. Love the channel man, it's not just extremely helpful but also really fun to listen to your breakdowns of the battles you upload.
Greetings from Sweden!
You mention "attach unit" in some videos, is that a command or you just mean that they are close to a radio/command team?
Usually I mean a unit that isn't part of a standard organisation. So if I had a platoon and added a mortar team to it, the mortar team would be an attachment.
@@usuallyhapless9481 Thank you for the fast response.
How do you attach it?
In the battle planer when you buy units or can you do it ingame somehow?
If there are no radios present in a particular unit, can you detach a scout team as a runner to pass information to another unit down the line?
Yes
what is the purpose of comms if you're controlling every unit?
They can PID targets faster if someone else has spotted them first, plus they get some leadership bonuses.
Comms are also needed to call for on/off map artillery support, CAS etc
@@usuallyhapless9481 I see thanks
Do units fire first when they know about the whereabouts of the enemy?
Am I the only one that find it wrong that my soviets platoon leader can call in off map or on map artillery even without being equip with a radio or close to someone with one ? Is it a bug ?
my only question is when the information is passed down and other units get the contact markers does that make them spot them faster or do they just simply know about it then and thats it
It makes them spot faster, the fresher and more solid the contact icon, the faster they will spot.
@@Coddykin awesome thank you for the info
This was an important point Hapless forgot to point out, but like Codreaunu said, it does make them spot units faster.
How much faster, depends.
yea i was also wandering about this because if that would not be the case, then the whole concept of communication links would be useful just for roleplaying purposes. Still I would gladly see some video about how units without contact info are spotting their targets vs how units with contact info are spotting theirs
is this confirmed? i had a situation where one of my scout cars didnt spot a tank for MINUTES even though it had the information an LOS. Of course i cant really tell if it would have been different without the shared information
What combat mission game is this tho? Is it CM red thunder? Sorry if im wrong im new to this game and im really excited fo buy one Game of the series
This one is Red Thunder yeah. It works like this in all the games though
@@usuallyhapless9481 ahhh alright thanks ^^
Amazing tutorial for a complex and essential mechanic lol barely referenced in actual tutorial, in manual but not like this.
what combat mission was this??
Yay
Hi!
First of all, thank you for your videos. I was too overwhelmed to get into CM but thanks to you I finally decided to get started.
Second of all, can you please make a video about differences between WeGo and Real Time types of combat? Pros\cons of each one and tactical advantages\disadvantages between the two.
Again, thank you for your videos!
Hey Hapless, how active is the multiplayer community? I want to get into the game but I really can't justify dropping $80 per 8 year old games running on a 15 year old engine.
I've never had a problem getting a game. Plenty of people here: discord.gg/Ck7dP3ZpSu
@@usuallyhapless9481 Cheers. Which game would you say is the most active?
🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉
This is all well and good..but...so what? Does the game limit you from running up the clueless Shreck team? There is no delay penalty, The player has abused the Borg as always. I had an idea for the Iron Mode, making command more Realistic, but most players are hard wired to being Borg-Boys. And, battlefront is just rehashing the current product and looking for Military Bucks now.
In the old Close Combat games you could show circles which indicated the leadership coverage of a command team. If other units were within the bubble then they reacted better to orders. Does CM have this feature?
It does not. Just got the command lines and the indicators in the bottom left