Thief 4 - An analysis or an autopsy
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Thief 4 or Thie4f of Thief 2014, is the game that killed the Thief franchise dead. So how did it happen. Did Garret go out with a whisper, a moan, or a horrified scream. Watch the video to find out.
Superb job, man. I'm only 1/3 of the way through and already a knockout effort.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: This game had some SERIOUS backstage turmoil going on. Divergent design, studio politics, East vs. West elitism... I would kill to interview one of the devs and get their side of the story. Because - as bad as Teef is - (and it is indeed terrible) in a weird way, it was also a valiant effort, considering what Eidos Montréal were up against. Eidos Montréal's Founder split halfway through, in disgust at Square Enix's micromanagement. The previous Producer (Mario Tracey-Aguera) - who had allegedly turned Teef into a third-person Assassin's Creed-esque Action title - was abruptly replaced by Stephan Roy. That Roy was able to refocus all that wasted energy and money into a _somewhat_ playable first-person stealth title is nothing short of herculean. He deserves no small amount of credit for getting it into a semi-playable state, regardless of the game's actual quality.
Make no mistake: The game is awful. But the _story_ behind the game has got to be fascinating. And likely holds myriad lessons for aspiring developers.
what lesson would that be, don't trust Canadians to preserve the integrity of an established fan base?
LOL, I just wanted to send a tweet to you to check this video out, because I know you are just as big of a Thief fan. But It seems I was a bit late. :)
Oh shit! It's razor! You guys should do a collab one of this days.
Yo, Razor. Been watching your channel for a while, man. Thanks for dropping a line. Hit me up in DM if you ever want to chat.
If it was me, I'd never let Eidos Montreal to touch Thief or Deus Ex ever again.
Thief 4: use a focus meter
Thief 2: focus
"Sense: Ability to visually detect noises..."
Back in the original games, you used your own earholes to detect noises, and it worked fine.
@@Furymgs3 I could see it for the deaf. Heh, see. But yeah it is an easier thing for others
@@DIEGhostfish It's not a feature for the deaf, though, it's a gameplay feature. It would be like puting the Colourblind option has an unlockable skill.
@@Furymgs3 Oof.
@@Furymgs3 that would be coooooool!
Damn, this still hurts, 4+ years later. Thief 4 was such a huge dissapointement for me that it made me begin my own stealth game directly inspired by the first 3 games. I hope I finish it sometime in the future.
Can't wait
I'm replaying it quite good
How is the progress going? What will it be called?
How is the game
I'm going to need some info on that game you're making. I'm an early backer, and the wait is killing me. Finish it already!!! ;)
According to some in-game lore (thanks Thief 4 wiki), this isn't the same Garrett, it's a descendant or reincarnation of some sort and takes place hundreds of years after the other games. His eye isn't mechanical... it's just blue for some reason. Probably related to the seance thing going on at the end of the prologue. That's what allows him to use his focus ability. You actually can find the original Garrett's (called the "Master Sneak-Thief") mechanical eye as a treasure. So it's all just coincidence I guess. Coincidence that he looks similar, has a special eye, is named Garrett, is a "thief"...
Not really, it's just a reboot or spiritual sequel. Basso and Erin are in the original games too.
Scavenger
It's a different Basso, just like it's a different Garrett. And the girl at the end of Thief: Deadly Shadows is not Erin. She may be the inspiration for Erin, but it is not her.
Bætnet
I know that, my point is that those 3 characters can't all be a coincidence at the same time like you seem to be implying, that's why I said reboot or spiritual sequel instead of true sequel. The world of Thief 4 is not the same as the original games is what i'm saying.
Scavenger There are actually numerous references in Thief 4 to the events of the previous games, implying that they did in fact happen. E.g. finding OG Garrett's mechanical eye like Bætnet mentioned, also "Moira Asylum" which is clearly the insane Widow Moira's old seafront mansion from Thief 3. Even finding the old Hammerite Cathedral from Thief 1 and the abandoned Keeper Library under the brothel. A cursory glance on the wiki reveals that the events of Thief 1-3 did actually happen in the same universe, a few hundred years before Thief 4. It is the same world.
You're right though, it is silly that those 3 characters all appear again in Thief 4 as if it were a different continuity. It's just shit writing.
Yeah, it is technically a reboot, but one that takes place in the same universe, hundreds of years later.
In original Thief you could even lean forward alt+w.
i just used left or right and mouse... i didnt know you coudl though
43:30 The eye actually _isn't_ the mechanical eye Garrett got from Karras in Thief 2. That fell victim to the reboot which also claimed the factions and Garrett's personality. _This_ glowy eye is the result of him looking into the magical mcguffin when Erin falls through the roof. If you look closely in that cutscene, you can see that his eye doesn't glow before the accident. This is also why his eye is the "missing piece" of the Primal, he absorbed it somehow.
How did he manage to look at it with only one eye though? Did he develop extreme wall-eye temporarily as he fell through the roof?
@@peterv1436 maybe it was only that eye because he was blind in it before?
Wasn't it supposed to be shrapnel?
"We're never going to see another Thief game" - we're contantly seeing new Thief content in the form of Fan Missions made for Thief 2 and Thief Gold, so I'm not complaining. A lot of them are much better than any sequel made by whoever currently holds the rights could be, anyway.
alternatively you can play the excellent dishonored series. a little more assassination focused but so similar that frankly i consider d1 the real thief 4. plus, corvo in d2 is voiced by stephen russell so he's literally Garrett
The problem is Dishonored will never have the sense of vulnerability that Thief does. You *can* sneak in Dishonored, but you always have the _option_ to go on a murder spree. In Thief, you can't fight worth potatoes.
@@Verbose_Mode Eeeeh I may be biased since I've been playing Thief for over 10 years and know the engine in and out, but once you learn how to use your sword and circlestrafe, combat in Thief is really easy.
@@JarlFrank Yes, you can be good at combat but the skill needed for it is huge, much harder then just sneaking past/avoiding/knocking people out. Good job at mastering it! Dishonored makes combat easy so its just another way of playing instead of a way not to play.
@@JarlFrank No its not combat in Thief is hard and the supernatural creatures like Vampires, Robots, Ghosts were harder to kill then your normal human enemy guards.
Combat is hard even if you were skilled at using sword and blackjack and bow and arrow!
Me: Garret why do you steal?
New Garret: Because its what I do.
Me: No Garret. That is what you are currently doing.
I see you also are a connoisseur of the Zero Punctuation variety.
Press X to not die
I really liked 2014 - It wasn't perfect though and did have flaws
LOL
Personally haven't played Thief 4 yet. I'm too terrified of having my fond adolescent memories of the first three games destroyed. I think when I first saw the trailers for this I really wanted to love it, but when I heard Garrett speak and it wasn't Stephen Russel in his iconic gravel tones, I think I cracked in half a little.
Misanthropic Attack Helicopter. I'm keeping my hopes up that one day, we'll see a sequel slip from the shadows that stays true to the spirit of the game and the characters.
Play it for academic purposes. It has its moments visually when it copies dishonored, but as a thief game... at least you'll know first hand what you're criticizing.
@@alexsm3882 don't waste time, it's linear, unbeliveable, terribly built
@@IrrationalDelusion I played it some years ago, and yes do waste time so you don't have to parrot what others say. It is mostly horrible, but at least I know why for myself. And it does have its moments as well.
@@alexsm3882 , eat feces. That way, you'll understand how it's disgusting, instead of simply assuming it is.
I played through Deadly Shadows with mods that removed loading.
It was a great game, and deserves to be part of the Thief Trillogy.
What I'll say is going to spoil the game if you haven't played it, and I think you should honestly because it's fantastic.
But out of all the factions in that game:
ONLY THE KEEPERS WERE DESTROYED IN DEADLY SHADOWS.
ALL THE OTHER FACTIONS STILL EXIST.
Meaning the fact they are no longer in Thief 2014 is purely because they didn't want to have them back. It's a stupid decision because the conflict between the Hammerites and Pagans is the main focus of the entire Thief trillogy.
Jumping in general in DS fucked me up. Always misfiring and I won't even get started on garret getting stuck mid flight. But it still felt like a thief game.
My biggest peeve is that they called it just "Thief", as though it represents the series in any way. I think it's disrespectful and arrogant, and I'm sad that became a trend in games and movies.
TDS is clumsy and clunky, but if you can get over that, it's an enjoyable game that also feels like a thief game. I loved it very much.
The only thing stolen in Thief 4, is the IP and creativity.
EmoWookie what creativity?
EmoWookie lol
@@asdasd-ty9se That's the whole point it was stolen.
Sebastian Sochanski I’m saying there is none
Wouldn't that imply that the game is creative?
Watching this video the asylum part feels like they tried to somehow recapture Thief: Deadly Shadow's Shalebridge Cradle (at least on the surface level) without having the skills to actually pull it off
"basically if you don't use opium, it's because you didn't know you could"
100% true
This deserves way more appreciation than it got 5 years ago
@@stevenclark1662 Thank you lmao.
It’s especially funny considering the fact that I got clean from an opioid addiction ~2 years after posting that comment (slightly less than 3 years ago today).
1 hour autopsy of Teef? This is gonna be awesome.
Also, somewhere in Arizona, a man swathed in black and white wearing aviators is nodding his head in approval. Optionally he's giving you a standing ovation.
Damn right he is.
@TheRageaholic Oh heck yeah!
Ayy, did I pass a "Shivers" check?
brother might i have some
LOOPS
I have no idea how the fuck this is relevant but I agree
You may have NO LOOPS
Sorry but my inner Thief superfan is going to have to correct you on one thing, Basso didn't owe Garrett for the Bafford job, Cutty did ;)
damn my feeble old brain.
and then cutty fucking died
BrandonC He was a good man, what a shame
Thank you! It's been bothering me the entire time. He only got Basso out to get with his sister. In the 2nd game, you help him get with his fiance too.
@@JoeTAC I make it a policy never to take a job this sentimental
A video that any true taffer would choose to watch over a trip to the bear pits tonight.
The bear pits aren't that great anymore, anyway.
No more paw hooks.
Back in my day....
The developers really should have worked "taffer" into every game - and worked harder on the goofy dialogue between guards - which was always charming!
@@Mister_Gency You should have been there years ago. Tell ya... the bears then? They were something to see!
Hey pro tip: you can also kill zombies with fire arrows. It blows them up into little bits, so they can't get back up and gnaw on you.
Just wanted you to know for future play-throughs, good video btw
they also work great on mechanists machines. i only learned it LATE into my second playthrough but it helps a lot to jsut destroy a fuckin camera or fight the large machines head on instead of trying to get to their backside... expensive but it works.
There's a better way. down them with a sword (2 charged hits should get the job done) then quick save the game and immediately reload. The game bugs out and the zombies technically get up instantly but are actually stuck in the downed state. Cheesed through half of the cathedral with this.
This is my first thief and I really like it. I understand the level design bit but seeing an animation for opening a door isn’t a cutscene. That’s like saying swinging a sword in Skyrim is a cutscene because on that very moment you can’t do anything besides watch the action play out. Lol
Not true at all. You can move while swinging and charge up a spell/attack in your off hand. Plus, swinging a sword happens instantaneously upon button press and isn't as committal and timesensitive as any action in a stealth game. I'd consider it a cutscene since the animations aren't as simple as the action you are attempting to do. He doesn't just open the door upon button press, you press the button, he stands up and opens the door, and THEN control is given back to the player after the door is opened. You can enjoy the game, but this comparison isn't very good.
The older games for their time were good when it came to graphics and unparalleled when it came to sound. The scarce ammo and audio visual clues on how to play were the key to tension and immersion. Rather than the map markers and text pop ups and x-ray vision (FFS).
They created modern graphics which is awsm but modern hand holdy game design killed it. Instead of a unique gem what thief was back then now it is a less than ok dime a dozen game. : / *sighs in older player*
I know.
I did find a free alternative called The Dark Mod that captures most of the ambiance and mechanics of the original Thief, only with a physics engine and constant updates. Its also got a ton of missions to play.
Good when it came to graphics, during time of release? Eh, they were okay. Average.
yeah, getting lost was annoying but binding compass to tab really helped prevent that in the future.
and yeah with scarce ammo it forced you to decide "do i get past this part with or without using an item..." I never had a hard experience like that of the last two thief levels, in the first yeah theres alot of crystals around but searching for replenishing items is going to take time and might get me caught. in Soul Forge, i grabbed a bunch of gas arrows, expecting to fight more human patrols like last time... i was wrong but i managed with my limited supply of water arrows and the sewege pipes and such having a few more there for me here and there was just such a feeling of relief, it felt like a blessing.
my first few levels i used water arrows on fuckin everything... later i just got better at sneaking around.
they weren't all that impressive graphically back in the day, what was impressive was how ai behaved around light sources and sound sources.
@@Ad-im1ne I don't know, I think the game looks good... Not battlefield amazing but good
This was the second game I owned for the PS4, and I tried soooooo hard to love it. I snapped out of it when my save file was corrupted by a loose power cable, forcing me to start over and realize how shitty the game really was.
After finishing my first thief game I can actually feel myself getting anxious and tightening up over the fuckin guard knockouts taking 5 seconds... just that 5 seconds I'm feeling just the tension...
Hitman Absolution had the exact same problems with level design. A bunch of small arenas connected by linear paths that hide loading screens and prevent you from going back. That's what happens when good graphics are deemed more important than good gameplay.
but absolution was at least fun (plus it has the only hitman story worth paying attention to, even with "and thats a fucking yeehaw" boi
@@quinnmarchese6313 Hitman players don't play Hitman for the story, they play it for the fun of having to figure out the myriad of ways they can tackle each assassination mission. Hitman games are very similar to Thief games in that regard. And focusing on the story instead of the gameplay is part of the reason why fans hate Absolution so much, since it made the game that much more linear. Not having to follow a precise story means that you don't really have to worry about coherence and continuity both between and inside missions, so you're free to design your big sandbox puzzles the way you really want instead of making it some kind of corridor. You have no limitations outside of the ones imposed by the mission itself, no particular need to be at that exact position to trigger that exact script or cutscene to move the story forward. Just NPCs with patterns, a few interactible objects, and clever squarish level design.
Absolution was a decently fun stealth game, yeah... assuming you weren't expecting an actual Hitman game. But there are other games of that precise genre I'll turn to if I want to play that sort of game, no need to twist the Hitman series into something it's not.
@@Furymgs3 you read into my comment too much, no where did i say it was a good hitman game, i just said it was somewhat fun and had a decent story my dude
@@quinnmarchese6313 Yeah, I guess you're right. It wasn't a _bad_ game. But boy was it a disappointment, though.
@@Furymgs3 that is correct. Hugely disappointing. I prefer the standalone sniper challenge
If you need to finish deadly shadows, use the patch/mod Sneaky Patch, wich removes the loading screens inside the missions. (The keepers are the main faction on deadly shadows btw, and you get to experience more about the relationship between Garrett and them)
Yep. I tried that in a playthrough I attempted last year. May give this another try and perhaps stream it to force my way through it. Really want to play through part 2 again first.
Strat-Edgy Productions i finished the og trilogy 2 days ago, now i'm into T2X, then i'm debating if i should give the dark mod another try (played it b4 1.0 years ago and wasnt convinced, but since then they released 2.0 and added one or two "campaings" and then custom maps by the fans) or jump into fan missions (and if i do that still need to decide for which game)
Strat-Edgy Productions you should at very least do the Shalebridge Cradle level in T3, except for Silent Hill series and System Shock 2, that's the creepiest and most atmosphedic level ever created in gaming
Quentin Els id argue return to haunted cathedral from thief 1 is close to shalebridge (but for added reasons) after recently replaying the og trilogy
I have a complete playtrough (without commentary) in 1080p with all loading screens edited out. If you are interested in it. (Check my channel)
th-cam.com/video/D9NnSYXoREU/w-d-xo.html
someone needs to make a ray tracing mod for the original thief
Remake in Unreal tbh. The graphics in general are outdated.
@@MattZelda Perhaps, but the mechanics are marvelous. Remaking in Unreal would just neuter it.
@@GlareanLiebertine why are you people like this? better graphics is always good, the characters look like shit in thief 1+2. Ray traced mirrors or puddles would be great and useful for seeing round corners
@@bigboss3051 Yeah but you would need to get the sound mechanics into the new engine.
@@bigboss3051 I have literally never liked graphical remasters. The old mechanics never feel right in the new pretty engines, or subtle changes are made to the art design that completely change the vibe of a scene. Games are art and we should respect the qualities of old games for what they are. Should we throw Metropolis in the garbage and remake it as a talkie because sound is objectively better? Should we repaint works of medieval art to fit the expectations of modern audiences? You can't just change the entire game engine while leaving the feel of the original work untouched. Something will always be lost in translation.
I'm not saying I wouldn't be curious to check it out, if dedicated fans want to try, more power to them. But future scholars will probably recognize our constant remastering of old games as both futile and misguided. Games are products of their time, this is reflected in their design, their art, and their engines. They are not amorphous products to be reshaped and resold every ten years.
I have to admit that Thief 3: Deadly Shadows was actually a very good game. And once you learned how the open world is build up it all made sense. And it also had some memorable missions like the Cradle or the manor on the island one.
There were some problems with it but sprinkling holy water as some do when it's mentioned i think is way overblowing it. It was a good game and great ending to the series.
Thief 3 was a very good game. I didn't mind the smaller lvls because the levels were more detailed and even more believable. The loading screens were annoying though and the game felt a little unstable and buggy, and the physics were a little glithcy because of the 3rd person option. Deadly shadows has its flaws but also its improvements, it would have been an even better game if it had been made witch PC in mind but compared to Thief(4)/ the reboot its a f*ckin masterpiece:)
I loved Thief 3. I adored every second of it. The locations were so much fun, and the cradle is probably the best Thief mission ever imo.
@@MrKosobi the cradle isn't just the best thief mission ever, its legit one of the best atmospherically designed levels in all of gaming
I think you were the correct amount of angry in this video. Awesome job, man
Gonna stream Thief 2 soon. Hope to see you there :)
I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks for the heads up!
Angry, sarcasm, irony, all mixed to a fine texture and presented as the highest of artwork for us. *bows before the great Strat-Edgy in respect*
I really enjoyed the open world in Thief 3, it made the City feel much more alive and realised
Agree with your criticisms of this last video in the franchise. I hated the girl - her unpleasantness took away from the likeability of the storyline. Her constant anger and offense at Garrett was annoying not empathy producing. I had little to no investment in seeing this plot resolved because of her disagreeableness - and it was murky regarding the relationship! Spot on!
I liked thief 3. I was aware of the small areas and frequent loading screens, but it still kept the loop design, and even though not big geographically, the areas were still big enough and free enough, choice-wise, in my opinion. In t3, the areas were not SMALL... they were just more segmented.
I wouldn't say that taking control away from the player for a few second to take loot is a bad thing. In fact, I absolutely adore this mechanic, I love Garrett's hands, that's literally gonna be the first thing I will remember if asked about this game. I love watching his gentle touches and cautious, almost womanly actions (except for banging the heads, yes, crushing faces is not gentle).
Could they do this animations less noticeable and all? Yeah, totally, I was also irritated because of the freaking windows animation FOR GOD SAKE HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO BREAK IN.
I won't protect the script (lackness of it) nor protect the linear levels BUT LEAVE ALONE HIS ADORABLE HANDS.
I may be biased because this is the first Thief I played, yes, I may even be a hand fetishist, who knows. Still, RDR2 also has this mechanic of grabbing things. Of course, the game's got different pace but does it look as cool and realistic! I wish more games had this feature, it doesn't break the immersion if done correctly.
Amazing vid.
The shard of the Primal Stone is embedded inside Garrett's eyeball. That's why he has Vision Powers at all. It's very draining/mentally shitty to use the ability because the Primal messes with human minds and bodies, and that's why the "Mana" Item in this game is Poppies; it calms him down, lets him Focus more.
All I wanted to say. Everything else is 10/10.
This game was such a trainwreck but it could've been so great...
i mean, forcing the main character to use opium to keep their abilities in check is an objectively cool narrative trope, too bad its wasted in this game
new Unity vid pls
I think the general killed the guard because he expected him to be loyal and go the extra mile if necessary (cut open the man's belly like he did to make sure he didn't have anything on him). It shows how much of a psycho he is, I think.
It was very poorly conveyed, then.
Like a worse version of Rais from Dying Light.
I'd get through Deadly Shadows. It isn't as bad as people make it out to be, especially after the fan patch that does away with a lot of the loading screens.
Both Dishonoured and Dishonoured 2 feel like you're in control despite the animations - I'm unsure why but maybe it's because the animations are short and can be cancelled whilst never assuming anything, for instance, you can open a window and then use it as cover or you can choke someone out and then pick up their body in the same animation - if you want to. I'm uncertain why it didn't work in Thief 4.
at the end of thief 3 an old magic lady named the Hag slaughters most of the keepers after disguising as the translator. there are 5 magic objects she's after that lead to something called the final glyph, which can destroy and deactivate all glyph powers in existence. Garrett learns she intends to destroy the objects, since they are her only weakness, seeing how she armed herself for centuries with glyph powers. Garrett activates the final glyph, dissipating all keeper powers and exposing their whole compound to the city, where it normally would have been hidden. this plus having most of the keeper, bar four or five, murdered, the faction seems to outright disappear except Garrett, who became a keeper. even there it's inconsistent with this. hope I could help you fill in what happened with the keepers in DS
So i actually liked the erin boss fight. It was a fight involving hiding sneaking and stealing shit. I hope future stealth games can at least look at that framework and say, "yeah, a boss doesnt need to be a dragon. It can be a test of the skills a player developed throughout the game"
Playing the asylum level really made it feel like the story arc was written by committee. This level was basically a rehash of the Shalebridge Cradle mission from T3. They wanted a creepy mission so they just jammed in Shalebridge Mk2
And the Shalebridge Cradle did it better. Thief 3 as a whole is a better game than Thief 4. Thief 3 was the actual conclusion to Garrets story. Thief 4 was a souless reboot.
I don't really buy into the "Thief 4 was held back by consoles" argument. While I hate comparing different games that use different engines and have different budgets, I feel this is a valid time to make that comparison. There are plenty of other games that have sandboxes that facilitate open gameplay that are much larger than thief's that are on consoles. Even the old hitman games had levels that could accomplish this (though mechanically they aren't built for it). And this is coming from a pc player. I haven't owned a console since the 360 era.
If a developer takes their time, they can do quite alot within the limitations of a console. But Thief 4's devs didn't have the time and not organized from what I understand. They apparently had one hell of a time trying to make this but I don't know the details. Otherwise, I agree with everything else in this video.
i would personally say that its actually fantastic that consoles exist because it suggests a line that shouldn't be crossed to disallow certain players from certain games. it means devs can strive to cater to more people. certainly there are games that are somewhat held back by restrictions, and thief 4 is one of them. however thief 4 was held back by the fact it was a 360 game for most of it's life and no one bothered to reoptimize it for ps4 and xbone. T4s limitations were inherently outdated (and by extension, shouldn't have been a problem) by the time it had come out.
It's not really clear on whether Thief 2014 is meant to be a straight reboot, or some kind of continuation.
I recall from watching a playthrough of Thi4f that there are some nods to the Keepers with the symbols that you see in the underground ruins that you traverse right after the House of Blossoms. There's a line nuGarrett has at some point about how they built over the old city. I think the idea is that Thi4f is supposed to be set a few hundred years or so after the original games, but that the returning characters are reincarnations. At the same time, I don't think Erin is meant to be the girl from the end of Deadly Shadows, but more of just a nod to that plot thread.
The blue eye that Garrett has in Thi4f isn't meant to be the mechanical eye. His eye is like that from getting some kind fragment or something from the magical blue stone from the end of the intro mission. I think that's meant to be an justification for the ability to see through walls and stuff. You can, however, find a mechanical eye in Moira Asylum, which give the implication that maybe old Garrett died there, but again, it's not totally clear.
All that aside, one of the real ironies of Thi4f is that it cribs a lot of it ideas from Dishonored, a game that's actually a much better successor to the original Thief games.
they removed all magical beasts and fantasy things to fight in this game... this game entirely was jsut using thief brand as a way to build hype...
thief 1 and 2, idk about 3 but theyre filled with fantasy concepts
Really nice to see that people still appreciate the originals. We lost so much. Thank you for the video.
Thinking about it, I think her calling him "Big Brother" is some kind of weird thing that probably came down from the Square people in Japan, more like an "Aniki" sort of deal, like in the Yakuza where your mentor is your 'Big Brother'.
People do that worldwide not a Japan exclusive behaviour to refer to a close friend as bro or sis
I so agree about thief 4 making so many actions a cut-scene was extremely detrimental.....
This actually destroys the game feel, I mean that... Absolute destruction to game feel... This thing on it's own is a straight minus 2 stars from the controls category and that's exactly fair. If I was biased it would be minus 1 or 3 stars. So many games are doing this and it ruins the feeling of flow, they do it to ensure that the animations look better as the character isn't able to move and fuck things up for the animator.... But it's just not worth it, This is the result of visuals coming first. It affects the game play. In this case the controls... Just the most important bit of an action game, that's all.
In the last video I watched from you I just said how Thief: Deadly Shadows was so much better. I don't remember the level design of that game, but it was certainly complex enough to make me get lost many times. The "open world" part was a small part of the game, not a big deal really, and it added well to the story. The atmosphere was amazing, I was afraid of the enemies, while in Thief 4 I felt like an unbeatable ninja. Loved how I could miss a backstab in Thief 3, but in the fourth we have that cheesy prompt button.
In a way a prompt button is nothing more than a small cutscene, I remember the year 2012 and after, when cutscenes became a cancer. Then came Dark Souls, that gave back a game to people, not a movie, teaching developers what gamers wanted and things got better a little. Said that before watching the rest of the video, and you said something along those lines too, about the prompt button. In the other games the factions had their own reasons, they were cool. In this one we have a general where they threw all kinds of flaws, just to make sure we are the good side and he was the evil side, the morality depth of a child's book.
The sound legit breaks after an hour of playing
speaking of him being in a coma, that leads to another interesting question; how was he in a coma for a whole year, then he wakes up in a cart as if he were only out for an hour? (and when he wakes up in that cart, it doesnt say "1 year later", instead you get that information from the Queen of Beggars )and if they assumed he was dead why did they wait a whole year to take his body to God knows where? if they were taking it to the furnace place where you get that ring, you'dve thought his body would've been ashes a long time ago. I dunno something about the whole coma thing really doesnt smell right.
I am a diehard thief fan from the very fist time the game came out. It was my father who bought it from Ukraine and gave it to me when he returned from his long trip. A strange dark cd came into my hands when I was a kid. I knew something was different about it just by looking at the covers. I was even a little scared, it looked mature. I fell in love instantly after playing it for the fist time. This bond never veined it just got stronger the more I thought about the game my appreciation grew. I played so many games in my life and Thief towers above them all by a mountain.
This game you are analyzing isn't thief...it is an abomination of a something that was truly my great love. I was disgusted by it and couldn't even last 20 minutes.
I actually didn’t have an issue with the open world in Thief 3. It gave you a sense that what you did in your missions had an impact on the outside world. Even with the great level design in Thief 1 and 2 I couldn’t help feel like I was locked into some specific chain of missions where my factions and actions didn’t mean anything. Thief 3 also expands on that with the prison quests and several shops, to me it’s much more immersive even if it seems like a pain here and there to get through town.
Actually I think my biggest problem with the open world was the way the quarters were linearly laid out instead of done in a more hub style.
Thief 4 was, and still is, a train wreck.
What makes the original Thief games great is the balance between gameplay, cutscene and story.
My biggest problem with Thief 4 is the over usage of cutscene-locked-attacks(like in Deus Ex:HR) and scripted cutscenes. And the enemies and NPCs are more A than I.
You missed one gold nugget when you talked about the opium in the brothel: if you're playing at the highest difficulty level, you automatically fail the mission, because one of the difficulty-related objective is to not harm civilians, and apparently flooding the place does that. Completely out of nowhere, everything seems to point to the fact that using the opium pumping system would be a non lethal system to get rid of guards in the buiding. Nope, it's considered the lethal option. No warnings about that. Bullshit game design. It's as if the team that developed the level never spoke with the team that worked on objective and the ghost / predator / whatever system.
Which is goofy as shit seeing as how you are in the same opium filled level as the people you supposedly kill with it and you survive just fine. Broken ass game logic.
you do know that also happens when you knock civilians out with your black jack ?. I think in the custom difficulties it explained why you failed the mission, it was either on " no kills or knock outs" or " no civilian knock outs" that said if a human/guard/civilian or animal was harmed in any way the mission would fail. I bring this up because when the player is doing a takedown it's non-lethal but it still "harms" the npc because hitting people with a 1 to 3 pound club kinda hurts.
Drugs are bad, m'kay?
Apart from everything else, I like the body animations in Thief. Unlike many games, here it's important to give the player info about their clumsy and fragile body. It always felt weird for me to collect stuff 2 meters apart from me without realising how Garrett did it.
Deadly Shadows tried to do this too (allowing you to seamlessly swap between first/third-person) and it was a glitchy mess that carried over to the base movement (Garrett would jerk around for a moment when the player changed direction). I don't understand how the dev team saw that, decided to double down on it (to the extent that they initially tried to make the game a third-person Assassin's Creed-style title) and then settled on this weird hybrid approach that satisfied no one.
"Basically, if you don't use opium, it's likely because you didn't know you could."
--Strat-Edgy; 2018
I can never shake the feeling that you are generalsam, in the same way that mandalore is sseth.
But yeah, I couldn't get into theif 4 because the reauired route of climbing up a rope in the tutorial glitched and I couldnt climb it past about half way.
I like all these guys, but I don't really see this guy as similar to Sam really. Well made videos sure, but very different styles and content focus
@@perryborn2777 you aren't aware of the difference between mandalore and sseth then?
Its intentional if you don't.
@@heyllo1337 Nah m8 Mandalore and Sseth are the same person, Mandalore is just Sseth when he isn't on cocaine
@@perryborn2777 I literally said they were the same
@@heyllo1337 I never disagreed about Mandalor and Sseth being the same, I was talking about Sam and Paul initially. I only brought up Sseth and Mandalore because you did, though I think I misunderstood what you were saying at first.
Nice, but I want to point out that a cutscene isn't the same as an ingame animation. A cutscene is when all gameplay mechanics are suspended (cut), the problem with things like stealing objects is animations that are badly implemented. Far Cry 3 had pickup animations as well but they weren't nearly as bad as the ones in Thief 4. The problem here is that the game forces your character entity to re-position (allowing you to be discovered) and that the animations in general are just way too fucking long.
in theif 1-3 you were free to solve problems any way you wanted. In theif 4 you have to do what they planned you should do= booring. It has to do with the maps, but also with the fact that you aren't in full control gareth.
I will be the voice of contention here and say that I love the game to pieces. I had fun distracting guards and hunting collectibles and trying to find new ways to sneak around, or playing chapters for different playstyles etc. Also, I used to hate ANY game that is in 1st person, because I like to see who I'm playing as, but this game taught me how to love the FP persective, which inspired me to play Dishonored which is also an amazing title in my opinion. I must say I have never played the previous Thief titles, so I have nothing to compare this to. I went in blind with no expectations at all. I literally knew nothing about this game, it was free for a month on XBL. It sat on my 360 HDD for about 5 years. I finally gave it a chance and I got sucked in, mostly once I started doing the side jobs and learning that The City has more nooks and crannies that it originally appears.
tl;dr I adore that game and had an amazing time with it, and plan on revisiting it for achievements and such.
Impressive job on the video BTW. It looks like a lot of effort went into this and it shows. Outstanding job, even though I disagree with your overall outlook on the title.
The only 451 in this was the temperature this shit got my PS4 at.
Deadly Shadows with the Thief 3 Sneaky Upgrade removed the loading screens, making all the levels flow again. Deadly Shadows is a better game than this on one virtue. It is a CONTINUATION, and the CONCLUSION to the story of Thiefs 1 and 2, its in the same continuity, and the end of Garrets story. Thief 4 is a SOULESS reboot with NOTHING of what made the original three games good.
shalebridge cradle was awesome.
@@jprec5174 Shalebridge featured in my nightmares for awhile not gonna lie
The girl was from the end of thief 3. Also, I agree that they've gotten lazy with level design. They lost sight of originality and creativity. Linear isn't really good in stealth games like this.
Wait a goddamn minute... So this is a direct sequel???
That is so much worse...
I think they just took that one element. It looks more like half-assed reboot, that didn't have guts to openly say so.
P.S. You should finish Thief 3. At least there's a mod that reduces number of loading screens (in missions). Deadly Shadows had good ending, with a nice callback to first game.
The girl in Teef isn't related to the Thief 3 girl. They took the idea of Garret teaching someone else the ropes from Thief 3.
It's not a sequel, and a real Garrett would not take an apprentice. If you pay any attention at all at the end of Thief 3, the part about the intro of Thief 1 where Garrett gets hired is missing from the outro of Thief 3. He never asks the girl to come with him.
@Devious Weasel ~ Yeah, you get the idea that nobody on the design team took any architecture courses. Because that factory reminds me of some Unreal type DM type maps where the architecture is just there to give you something with some cover to shoot people in. The architecture serves no practical purpose beyond that.
Its kind of like a Bethesda Dungeon. Its there for you to kill things and find loot in, but, it doesn't make any logical sense.
From what I seen in some wiki pages this Garrett is an impostor, you can find the grave of the previous Garrett that states he was killed by the City Watch. Is this Garrett his son or an impostor(ironically the greastest thief identity is stolen).
Thank you. You pretty much just taught me to make stealth maps for my 100% stealth class D&D party.
I know what happened! in the old game we all know garret has a low tolerance level for stupid interactions or people so right after having to deal with that emo girl and falling or hanging off a rope in the middle of some weird sex ritual he decided that he would have nothing to have with the plot, so as the game flashed Garrett climbed up the rope, escaped the building, wacked some guy off the street put him in a cart and jumped out of that game,
as the year passed by a happy coincidence that guy the master thief wacked was also named garrett and hes two buddies were carring him in a cart, how it that for a solid theory! its air tight x3
My guess is that this game was designed at some point to be a sequel to Thief 3, that's why it was called Thief 4 at some point I guess, there are some bits and pieces left over that point to this:
1- Erin was probably the little girl Garett adopts at the end of Thief 3
2- The underground cave library was probably an abandoned Keeper library
3- Orion's zeppelin thingy probably was an unfinished project of the Mechanists
4- The weird fish-zombie thingies were probably used to be Pagan monsters/Fish people from Thief 3
And there are probably some other stuff that I'm missing, but this I think proves that they developed the game as a sequel at some point in time.
Then during development they changed course for who knows what reason (probably publisher pressure, change of directors etc.) to make the game a reboot. And whoever that was in charge of the reboot thought it was a good idea to remove the Pagans, Hammers, Mechanists the Keepers (although Keeper order kind of disbanded at the end of Thief 3) and other factions which made the unique world of Thief and replace it with a generic bad ruler with corrupt police force, so you get the Captain Hook looking Sheriff guy.
What bothers me to no end are the homages to the classic games through
1- The DLC Bank mission kind of nods to Thief 2's Bank mission
2- The mission where you go over the rooftops to get to the burning prison nods to Thief 2's amazing Life of The Party mission
3- The asylum mission is a nod to Thief 3's spooky Orphanage mission
4- The whole freaking clock tower is an homage to the clock tower Garett literally blows up in Thief 3
I just wish they could have done something totally unique with the reboot, use the IP's strong name and deliver a completely new experience like Prey 2017 (aka System Shock 3, or maybe should have been called Astro Shock or something? I dunno). It's just sad to see all this talent and effort go into creating a mish mash that wouldn't satisfy neither camp of old school Thief fans and some person who would be interested in a stealth action title.
Great job! Thief Deadly Shadows -both Hammerites and Pagan's had items returned, and still existed. The Keeper's probably split, except Garrett.
I was so amazed by your analysis that I took a pen and paper and started to writing down all of the things you said about level design, sound design, and the script 👏👏👏
Weird 😂
I couldn't listen to this past 26:14. The content producer talks about "Emorett". Has he heard his own audio track on this video. It was like listening to a 5 year old with a young man's voice. It is not healthy to get so triggered by video games, get out of the basement, go to the gym, lose some weight. We all hated the lean mechanics in Thief 4, along with the rest of it, but not all of us threw a 5 year old's tantrum about it.
Just an FYI: This game is supposedly set YEARS after Stephen Russell's Garrett and the City. And not just a decade or so, at least 100 YEARS. The factions no longer exist (for some reason), and Garrett and Basso are just names being reused. Not to mention, you should totally play Deadly Shadows, which Moira Asylum was actually heavily inspired by
iirc, the moira asylum is actually supposed to be the seaside manor from deadly shadows
@@quinnmarchese6313 yeah, forgot to include that bit, it's lore connected
4:00 that’s some really great logic bud
Thief 4 isn't bad just because it isn't in-line with the original Thief games, it's bad because it isn't in-line with REALITY.
The original Thief games were so great because they were so in-line with reality.
Ths sad thing about these remakes is when they dont sell well, the company thinks "welp, the IP must just not be profitable anymore" 🤷♂️ Couldnt be our fault for fucking it up
Tbf, the Thief games were never profitable. They were highly praised but Looking Glass Studios closed down after Thief 2 and when Ion Storm took as many LGS employees as possible to work on and release Thief 3, they still ended up closing down despite the clear consessions they made for Eidos in that game, such as a third person and console availability. So yeah, the Thief trilogy is excellent but let's not pretend it's not a niche product. They never sold well.
@@davidrgrech0 sure i mean i cant argue with you there. But what i said does still ring true about other IPs that publishers sabotage. So perhaps misplaced in talking about theif, but i still stand by what i said
I paid almost nothing for this game and I was angry when I finished it. My favourite genre of game was promised and I got none of it
Great review! Thief Deadly Shadows I felt was really good, so maybe you should rethink playing it. It had an AWESOME level; probably one of the scariest in gaming history and right up there with "Haunted Cathedral" called the Shalebridge Cradle. Truly creepy and AWESOME!
However, I tend to agree with your disappointment with the cut scenes. The entire environment was limited and claustrophobic at times but the game truly adhered to the Thief feel and story. It looked like a Thief game and felt like a Thief game AND pulled you in like a Thief game.
My biggest disappointment, though this may sound petty was the absence of the rope/vine arrows. Instead; you were given a pair of near-useless wall climbing gloves that allowed to to go as you pointed out in Teef...only where the developers wanted you to go.
One of the many upsides of Thief DS was the return of the aforementioned Keepers, Hammerites and Pagans.They always add to the Thief quality.
Anyway....thanks for the Five Star review, but give Deadly Shadows another try. It's a "real" Thief game.
The lore of the Mechanists was so interesting, I was fascinated by them as a kid
Damn bro you dug INTO this game
I like this game more than thief 3.
Your thief 1 map splits into 2 paths, not 4. 2 of those go into the other 2.
Fantastic analysis, spot on really, and very sad considering what could've been... Makes me want to replay Thief 1 & 2 for the countless time.
46:39 - The reason why the Keepers aren't in the 2014 game (at least, the way I understand it) is due to the fact that Deadly Shadows ended with Garrett functionally destroying _all_ Glyph magic in The City, save for the Glyph on his right hand, when he placed five items in key districts and unified their abilities to both destroy the Glyphs and disable Gamall/The Hag (who turns into an old woman, no longer protected by her immortality). The action Garrett takes _also_ apparently wipes out all of the Keepers' records, as the ending cutscene shows what's left of the Keepers (their leadership having been decimated by the Hag) looking at their books only to find the pages are empty. The citizens of the City also discover that the magic used to hide the Keeper sanctuary has dissipated, allowing them to see the building for the first time in however many years.
The way the 2014 game was designed, it seems to suggest that the Keeper Library was built over by the House of Blossoms, but not only does this not make much sense (the entire framework of the Lower Libraries[?] is still there, in a cavernous space that doesn't jive with the structure built above it), but the Primal Book you find, which is expressly located in this Library (and was unlocked by a key Erin just happened to have found?) still has its writing within, which contradicts the ending of DS regardless.
And that's a comparatively-minor issue as opposed to the other logic bombs this game drops on the player.
Thief deadly shadows actually have a very good story and fulfilling ending to the triology and the loading screens only last literarly 1 sec on a modern pc. In short terms the keepers dissapears and all their glyphs and magic keeping them hidden disspaear as well and their societey gets revealed for the people in the city to their awe and astonishment. Garret is standing in the middle of it all and a little girl tries to pickocket him and he repeats the same words as the keeper says to young Garret in the dark project. Bringing down the keepers, sharing their knowledge with the people to create a new order was garret's role in the prophecy in the end. none of this is mentioned or reffered to in Thief(4). To me it seems like Thief(4) was supposed to be a sequel but they fucked up and made it a reboot instead.
This is a reboot. You're wrong about the eye, that's not a mechanical eye. It's a result of what happened with the primal in the cutscene when Garret is swinging down on the rope he looks directly into it. Also, if you're playing Thief 3. Download Sneaky upgrade.
www.moddb.com/mods/thief-3-sneaky-upgrade
It has load screens removed, and its completely changed by fans to be similar to Thief 1 and 2.
You make a lot of good points but I would point out that your assertion that the game's first person animations, that you call "cutscenes", break immersion by taking away control, is not something everyone would agree with - to some those animations are the very thing that help them feel more immersed
They still make it a worse Thief game
You tearing through this game's assholes for more than an hour? Couldn't ask for more from this life.
This is where Thief 4 ended for me personally: two guards are patrolling some yard, there's a couple of boxes in the middle of it. On the top these boxes there're some coins and a silver (mb golden) cup. The guards are walking around them boxes. My brain bled.
Oh, btw, in this video you sounded just like Spoony at times (for example - in the window rant part). That's a good thing, I adore Spoony!
I don't know if you read comments on older videos, but I had no idea that there were supposed to be convicts in the asylum part. My game must have bugged out as the enemies were invisible to me throughout that entire section. I thought that was on purpose and that made it one of the spookiest things I have ever experienced in a game. Damn near shat myself a few times, trying to sneak around invisible voices threatening me. I thought that was the only part that elevated this entire shitshow of a game.
I don't know what to feel now.
You gotta be kidding me
The audio was a LOT better (like it actually had footsteps and directional audio) if you had an AMD card with TrueAudio and enabled the feature. Why they didn't at least offer a decent experience with normal audio that works on other GPUs I dunno. Other games seem to be able to...
I enjoyed the game. It's not really a Thief game, but it looked great and I liked the mood. Gameplay was fine-ish for modern standards.
It's not a "good" game, but I had fun with it.
"Sometimes murderer..."
Not in my playthroughs.
... Ok, I "mercy killed" Lotus... Dude asked for it.
Thats not murder
Technically he killed Karras and the Woodsie Lord tho. It's mentioned in a conversation between two Keepers in the Forbidden Library. This is one of the reasons why they thought Garrett would be the "brethren and betrayer" Caduca mentioned.
This game is awesome. There's not enough stealth games and this game does it all right. Shadows make sense, you can hear the enemies and the rules are uniform and work the same the whole time. **** haters.
I do see what you're saying but if you don't beat your head against the wall about how it's different, it's a very enjoyable game with SOLID stealth mechanics. I think they did the best they could for being a PC/Console split game. You just have to take into account how long each action takes to play out. It's more realistic that way, I love it. To get out of the lean you just press back...
Dude, yes you CAN hear the guards AND I never had a problem with knowing if I was in darkness. How did we have such a drastic difference in experience? Just turn up the damn sound!! The sound design is great!
The Moira Asylum chapter was a pitiful sand castle imitation of the horror masterpiece that is the Shalebridge Cradle. You should have finished Thief 3 instead of this piece of shit.
Don't forget the Haunted Cathedral, and the long trek through the abandoned city leading up to it
One point I have to disagree on is that I absolutely love the open world in Thief 3. The joy of independently exploring the city at my own pace between levels is one of the things that drew me to the game in the first place. I have over 400 hours of playtime on T3, yet I still discover new nooks and crannies I never knew about.
Hopefully one day we get the true Thief experience in an open sandbox level design. Much like how Hitman has been handled lately. Boggles my mind how this was never the goal to begin with, with this reboot.
Ausgezeichnete Analyse. Es ist überaus bedauerlich, dass so eine großartige Serie so sehr minimalisiert und ihr sämtliches Potenzial entzogen wurde, dass ein echtes Schleichspiel ausmachte. Deine Bewertungen haben mir so sehr zugesagt, dass ich wieder Lust bekommen habe die ersten zwei Teile auf ein Neues spielerisch wieder zu erleben. Ich hoffe, dass Square Enix niemals eine Fortsetzung veröffentlichen wird... Super Video 👍👍
"7 floors, all of witch are sprawling, exploration-heavy areas with multiple paths." This is mostly correct except for the bottom-most floor which is literally just a single room with a spider.
Also zombies can be killed with explosives and mines. Not just water arrows like you said.
I forgot to write this on your Deus ex Mankind divided video I've just watched but I realized I wasn't subbed so I changed that post haste.
Thanks for the content man.
Same. Best days of my life hunkering down, turning lights off, head phones squished to my ears. Still, today, those zombie and skele audios freak me out! Dark Project and Metal Age, nothing can beat that! One of my fav maps was Angelwatch, but the outside, on the thief's highway! The freedom!
In the original thief I just loved that you were an interloper into other people's worlds. You don't feel you're the protagonist, but someone slipping through their world with the hope of not being noticed. You know the city would continue perfectly as normal if you were or were not there. This is really brought out when you stumble onto other people's arguments, like this: th-cam.com/video/0EMsYiIqLvI/w-d-xo.html (from T2) - or running through their house apologising to the householders: "Don't mind me, ladies! I'm just passing through". You don't get that in T4 - everyone knows who you are and are hunting for you - and you're slated to be the hero to save the world (true Garret saves the world in all the other games, but only because that happened to coincide with his own interests!).
Thief used to be an IP made by people who "wanted to create the holodeck" (quote from a Rock, Paper, Shotgun retrospective on System Shock) and valued player agency, environmental storytelling, all the while proposing that cutscenes would be the lazy devs way out. Thief isn't merely a Stealth Game, capital S, capital G. With its minimalist UI, in-universe maps, sandboxy levels and cutscenes deliberately only taking place in between missions, its the farthest Looking Glass took their ethos.
The irony and tragedy is that it fell in the hands of developers who valued the polar opposite to that. Whereas Looking Glass' ideal may have been the Holodeck, Eidos ideal was the Cinema. Looking Glass (much like their heirs Arkane) would have NEVER traded agency for a more linear and guided cinematic experience and presentation. That's what they were actively fighting against starting right with Ultima Underworld. And they never stopped with that. Until they folded.
Playing this felt like playing a fever dream simulation.
I hate the idea that somehow dishonored is new thief, I hate that and want real thief again
52:01 no, its just the old "bad guy kills their own minion cliche"
I've watched this video so many times and every time I watch it again I love it more and more
The unavoidable unskippable actions drive me effing crazy. It's why I never finished the original Assassin's Creed and never bought any of the rest of them. The unskippable unavoidable animations make me rage.
How the hell did Thief become the poor man's Dishonored?