I was always a downhill/free ride kinda guy, but back in the day I had a friend who was really into XC. He used to obsess about those SID’s. He’d talk about them constantly, like to the point that it was kinda annoying, lol. We were just poor early 20 something bicycle messengers who spent all our money on weed and beer, so a high end fork like this was out of the question. Eventually though, he did get one. To this day, I still don’t know who he wined and dined to get them, but goddamn he got them. I still remember meeting up for a ride and Dan coming around the corner and seeing them on his bike for the first time. Holy crap Danny was a happy camper! 🍻
I wanna know how top end stuff 5 years ago measures up against the new mid range Sr suntour stuff that comes as standard on most new affordable entry level mtbs.
In my experience mid range Marzocchi forks from 2003 are far better than Suntour XCR forks which are pretty entry level. The dampers are rubbish and spike so badly that sometimes it feels like you left the lockout on.
stuff from 5 years ago isn’t that different from today, sure there’s been a few innovations but a 2015 fox fork doesn’t really feel different from a 2021 fox fork. older stuff will get you way more value though
I have a pair of marzocchi bombers z3 lights from 1998 I bought them 2nd hand back in 2002 I service them every year great forks and still feel as good as when I 1st got em 👍 great video
The gaters are a huge improvement over the current ones. I live in a sandy area and it garentees the fork stantions are scratched to oblivion on short order. I suppost they cant sell you another set if they last too well.
It would make much more sense to compare the 1999 SID with the 2020 100mm SID or even the 100mm Fox 32 step cast... The Fox 34 is a trail fork, it's not an XC fork.
That's actually a 34 step-cast fork. And being "only" 120 mm travel set up for 29 inch tires - it's about proportional to the SID or comparable XC forks of '90s era.
@@aluminumhorserider6197 Can remember when when Doddy was real good at getting tech really accurate, sadly not any more? Would have something to do with audience that have no real knowledge, even google knows little about anything more than 5 years old?
Hey Doddy, Cory from West Virginia here. Love the retro v modern comparison video. I would love to see you do one on wheels. I remember having to true wheel after almost ever ride and buy new ones all the time. Now I’m 100 lbs heavier and have been on same wheels for 3 years and have just had the spoked tightened once. What had made wheels so great theses days.
Votec GS4 was also nice. Upto 140mm of travel in 1998. Marzzochi came in later with an open oilbath and was the benchmark in sensivity. Love these old days...
I never expected to see Doddy use pliers to turn the hex fork caps on that vintage SID. He seems to have a tool for everything and I can hardly believe my eyes seeing Doddy use a giant plier on those caps. Am I missing something? Are the caps not built with a hex shape? Otherwise: beyond superb teardown, comparison and tech analysis. Thanks a million!!!
Those Pliers happen to be Knipex! Possibly the best wrench/pliers in the world (Carlsberg) also they are a smooth jaw. If you have a spare £250 you could buy a set of them!
I really appreciate you mentioning the materials and the process of manufacture for the parts, and even the metal in the kashima coating. It was great that you said the name of each part, as I didn't have to use separate resources to learn what you were talking about. Nice informative video, and easy to understand even for somebody who knows nothing about bikes. It's amazing seeing the changes made and I'm glad you talked about some of the benefits of each component. Thanks for making this.
22:22 imagine you've had a 2002 Marzocchi Junior T wich have a similar coating like the Fox has AND an open oil bath damping. I have one and the coating hasn't worn out a µm. It still works great after all those years.
I've got a pair of Fox air shocks from the 1970's...Motorcycle that is... These are still in demand in the right vintage circles. Bob and Geoff Fox originally sold dirt bike accessories for CZ motorcycles so they took the stanchions from 35mm CZ forks and cut them down and machined some shock bodies and put an air bladder in them. Later they added another Schrader valve to adjust the negative pressure...and that's how they got in the suspension business.
I had a RockShox Judy XC from 1995 with elastomer and oil cartridge with an amazing 50mm travel on my Sunn 5000R :D That was a revolution at that time. Went through Fox from 2007, and now 2020 Fox 34 stepcast. And yes there is a world between those suspensions allowing us riding what we thought impossible at this time. Thanks for showing us the inside of those beasts !
Having had three different XC forks in the last five years, ranging from RockShox entry level XC 32 coils through to current Reba & Fox 32 Step Cast Performance, I have to say the differences in actual performance are slight at best. Air springs are easily adjustable and lighter, boost axles are more convenient, but other than that in terms of ride feel and outright performance out on the trail when all dialled in, I don’t feel the massive increments in cost go hand in hand with what you get as the end user. I personally feel that experimenting with tyre pressure has a more profound effect on comfort and handling than swapping out forks does. I also think the serving schedules are beyond a joke for frequency.
Hey Doddy how about a retro pad brakes and modern disc brake comparison video. I’ve been watching a lot of restoration videos and have seen some interesting pad brakes followed by cool new disc designs. Love the videos keep em coming mate!
24:50 for reducing fatigue, ultimate grip and comfort, coil springs have it. But air has infinite adjustability. Given the suspensions sole purpose is to keep the tyre on the ground and slow down the impulse of a bump, coils seem to win. I still run fox 40 rc2 coil forks because they feel so much better. The ultimate adjustment seems negligible unless you are a top level pro that could possibly feel the difference. Or more likely see a couple hundreths of a second difference. Then that could also be less weight. Maybe a coil air composite like rear DH shocks are the best feel. With new materials and titanium springs they could be the future. Maybe I'm old and have ridden coil since the 90's. As long as elastomer forks and shocks stay dead we should be good 😂
adjustability is important even for non-pro riders. Not many people want a fork for one purpose, and often people adjust their forks for different trails. In addition, a fork is good only if it fits you. Coil forks that work for some people won't work for other riders of different weights, unless extensive modifications are made. But in my opinion, the biggest difference between coil and air forks is the weight. And what air forks have you compared your fork to? Modern forks have come a very long way, even when compared to forks from a few years ago.
Really really enjoy these ' tech talks' where you go in to fine detail about things. Yes I am a tech type, what used to be called a 'grease merchant' back in the day. Proud of it. Keep them coming Doddy especially the old tech stuff like the recent Marin you serviced. Love these old/new comparisons as well👍
I'd like to see you put the FOX 34 back together. I'm particularly interested in seeing how you would put the lubricating grease/fluid back into the shock and how you determine how much to put back in.
I just finished building up a hard tail with the new Helm MKII and I have to say my initial impression is that fork is smoother than two sticks of butter having sex on a hot day.
Excellent vid, thanks! I once reconditioned one of those cartridge dampers out of a '96 Judy XC (the type with gold 3-piece lowers); extracted the old seals and got them matched up at a bearing shop, fitted one of the new seals and the piston, primed it and filled it to the brim with 5W fork oil, then pressed in the 2nd seal with a thin screwdriver between the seal lip and the damper shaft to bleed it. This was over 20 years ago so my memory is a little hazy but I guess the seals must have been retained by internal circlips. In November I bought a 2008 Specialized Stumpjumper running the original Fox F120RL fork, I assumed (wrongly) parts weren't available and so purchased a 2020 RockShox Reba to replace it along with a Monarch RT3 rear shock. Very happy with this combo but it left me with an immaculate Fox F120RL sat on a shelf doing nothing. It turns out the air piston seal is actually available but not the wiper seals so I serviced them using RockShox grey 32mm seals and foams (the type for the original mid-2000s Reba) and they fit perfectly, the OD is exactly the same! So this fork was fitted to my Giant XTC7 26" wheel hardtail, replacing the RockShox 30 Silver TK Coil. These are great for the money but the F120RL transformed the bike, 25mm more travel and two thirds the weight, and I'm running 26" slicks for the road atm so the lockout is very welcome (ridden it offroad a few times though and it went well). The damper looks similar to the one out of those Fox 34s but without the bladder. One thing I like to do with older QR dropout forks when servicing them is to refit the plastic dropout protector piece you get in the box when buying a set brand new; it's so easy to snap the lowers across the top of the arch otherwise and it protects the dropouts if you happen to drop the fork. Not being up to speed with modern bikes I enjoyed the stripdown of the Fox 34s, thanks again!!
When Jerry Vanderpool was closing up his company Hippie Tech I had the opportunity to purchase one of his last new old stock custom RockShox Judys he'd built from leftover service spare parts. All parts were new oem. I still ride it today. It's assembled from RockShox Judy SL lowers, dual coil springs with HydraCoil open bath damping, and Judy TT (I think) uppers that are steel stanchions nitride coated black with a steel steerer. It's an ounce over 4 pounds in weight with the steerer cut, has 100mm of travel, and no perceptible flex under my 200 lbs in use due to the all steel uppers and steerer. It's the only reason I've not upgraded my mtb because the Judy still works fantastically on New England singletrack.
Been mountain biking pretty much since I could ride a bike. I remember seeing these OG SID and Judy forks and just thinking how rad they were. Heavy speed nostalgia
I have a 2001 z1 Atom Bomber race fork which still works like a champ! Coil sprung. I just serviced it last month. One issue I've had was finding seals. I got some Marzocchi seals via eBay, but they had a small flange that was absent in the original seals, which meant I had to file the exterior around 1/3 of the circumference in order to avoid interference with the bridge/lowers interface.
I had a "proper" sid long ago. It weighed around 1300 grams. Add the weight of the two coils, then subtract the air unit's weight you might end up at around 1400 to 1450 grams
They had to compare apples to oranges, as that’s what is takes to support the “bike tech has come a long way” claim. It hasn’t changed much, but the sponsorships and modern prices won’t let him say that.
Another amazing video Doddy, never had a SID but certainly had my fair share of those early forks. Pretty amazing how far we have come. Keep up the great work!
I'm on my very first air shock and its like a magic Carpet ride 👍 fifty years I've been riding and only ever had spring, when they first came out I had the old suntour heavy as hell xc range, cant hold a candle to this rockshox recon sl solo air 120mm ,beautiful looking beast just floats with its solo air piston, there's an ingenious indentation inside the Stanchion that equalisers the pressure from pos to neg when the piston seal passes over it.
I just replaced a pair of sync fork with rockshox 32mm AIR ,its hilarious how beefy my old T6 ovation Marin looks 💪,now she rides like a magic carpet 🤘🇬🇧😎
I was disappointed that he didn't compare a Rock Shox to a Rock Shox. Fox did make some good 26" forks. Riding 26" wheels requires more skills than 29". Call me old fashioned but I prefer the older stuff. Manitou made a reverse arch fork that was much better than many of the popular Rock Shox forks. Marzocchi forks were very popular among many downhillers and people on the west cost of the US in the late 90's early 2000's. Thanks.
I used to spend hours back in 1999 swapping out springs, dampers, getting the stanchions free from stiction to get the most dialed, plushest ride out of those forks.
I put my 2007 iron horse bike next to a 2021 diamondback, and man could you see a difference originally tires 3" bigger 26-29 take the tires off, and the diamondback still sat 4" taller everywhere except the seat stay, and seat post were surprisingly shorter by 1_5/32"
Cool video! I started Mtn Biking at a pretty young age (Headshok was a thing) and my first real bike had a Marzocchi "Zokes" fork which was elastomer sprung.
nice to see in 28 years how many modern forks are still around and working, considering most manufacturers don't support there products once there two years out of date
Last year I did my first cross country race in pouring rain on an old coil-fork GT from 2004. After the race my coils were permanently bottomed out pancakes and when i opened up my forks I had to pour out half a liter of brown water. My wrists hurt that day
The early SID’s were amazing in their day and still are quite good for light to moderate XC riding. The SID in this vid is basically a Judy with the spring swap instead of the original air spring setup.
Ah the good old days 😌. Remembering when I was in the school you didn't have a good bike unless it had RockShox. Oh and trying to stop with wet rims with V brakes in Vancouver😅🤣🤣🤣🤟🤙
Circa 1991-ish, my first shocks were Specialized Future Shocks (the only rival at the time to Rock Shox) and instead of shrader valves, you pumped it up with a needle pump like you’d use to pump up a sports ball. That was the only adjustment. Eventually the valve leaked and no replacement parts. Oh how far we’ve come.
Brother Eldrian: I just got replacement compression elastomers for mine :). It comes in a kit with 10 elastomers. Took awhile to find a supplier online. Fork is on a 1995 Bontrager Privateer. These days I use it for winter commuting to/from work. The fork is rated 60 mm of travel lol.
@@mrsmartypants_1 Nice one. Yeah but I used to be the king of travel until my buddies picked up the mach 5 of Manitou. Insane times compared to now. Where did you aquire the elastomers? I'd rather go with a spring and damper for sure though.
Brother Eldrian: Totally agree about the spring and damper. I wanted to invest as little money as possible in the bike and still have a nice riding bike for commuting. My bike money goes into my 2 modern mountain bikes. The headset (1”), seat tube (26.8mm) etc.. of the Privateer makes it extremely hard to find replacement parts. Here you go: www.suspensionforkparts.net/eshop/rock-shox/rock-shox-quadra-21r-elastomer-refresh-kit-95-96.html
Best thing I did back in 2001 was get rid of a SID World Cup fork and replace it with the 2001 Fox fork. The difference was very notable, especially in the corners. The Fox was much stiffer (not as bendy) and didn't wash out like the SID (same tires). I still have that Fox fork (100 mm travel) mounted on my 2000 Litespeed, just some seal replacements only.
22 years on and coil is still far superior! Just stuck a Vorsprung coil conversion in my Fox 36 and it actually makes the fork worth the cost. Prior to that, no matter how good the Grip2 damper was, it was still limited by the air spring.
It took years for RS to sort out the SID air springs, which is probably why this one was modified to coil. The Marzocchis of the day were heavier, but more reliable. I had a 2000 SID and it lasted about 50 hours of riding before it crapped out, and I replaced it with a Manitou. I have a 2009 SID Team on a Giant Anthem, and it's bulletproof. It's about as good as 26" forks got before 27.5 and 29 took over, and it would be a more appropriate comparison example than this blue fossil. 32mm stanchions, 100mm travel, about 1.5 kg with an uncut steerer, the SID Team isn't very far behind the Fox featured here, other than the change to through axles.
What are the performance improvements of upgrading a front fork today? I'm not wanting to increase the travel, but obviously a £200 fork Vs a £500 fork must have some differences? Would it be worth the upgrade?
012chris210 you’ll get a slightly lighter fork with more adjustability for your body weight and riding style. Don’t expect life changing differences though.
Doddy, you should have included the original 1995 RockShox Judy XC or SL into your comparison. They would have shown the huge difference in technologies between then and now. Colored MCU (Micro Cellular Urethane) bumpers in blue and red for different stiffness stacked together and an oil damper which is made with a flimsy plastic housing. Of course the MCU elastomers squashed and squished in any possible direction making adjustments impossible, which didn't matter since they completely disintegrated after some months and had to be replaced regularly. And the high-pressure oil damper had a lifetime of some 12 months before the plastic housing exploded and leaked all oil into the lower leg. The fork then turned into a wonderful pogo stick for some time, which then after total decomposition of the MCU bumpers sank down by 50mm and turned into a stiff fork which made you very aero since your front was 50mm lower. A lot of action for your money... :D)))))
Dodgy not wishing to criticise but being a 38 year veteran gas fitter/plumber you shouldn’t use your adjustable grips backwards because they are prone to slipping and rounding off the edges love all the videos cheers Nick
That's pretty cool. I still have my Manitou on my Gary fisher. I didn't ride much so it still works great today. I would like to see the internals of a Manitou unless it's simar to the blue one you did. It's from around 2004/2005.
Enjoyed looking at how much progress mtb suspension has had over 20+ years. Would have been better to compare the old Rockshox Sid to the 2021 Rockshox Sid, though. That way it's apples to apples. Maybe in another Video? And if you were to do cross comparison between brands, shouldn't it be compared to a Fox 32?
Great vid. Except I'd like to understand what a damper is. What is the internal of the damper? have you got a video to illustrate that technology and how it works?
That Sid actually looks nice
Would have been even lighter without the Judy internals too
I would love a new SID Ultimate Carbon with those old decals on it.
@@danpetrea that would be quite beautiful. i reckon you could still get some of the decals.
And nancy
I was always a downhill/free ride kinda guy, but back in the day I had a friend who was really into XC. He used to obsess about those SID’s. He’d talk about them constantly, like to the point that it was kinda annoying, lol. We were just poor early 20 something bicycle messengers who spent all our money on weed and beer, so a high end fork like this was out of the question. Eventually though, he did get one. To this day, I still don’t know who he wined and dined to get them, but goddamn he got them. I still remember meeting up for a ride and Dan coming around the corner and seeing them on his bike for the first time. Holy crap Danny was a happy camper! 🍻
I wanna know how top end stuff 5 years ago measures up against the new mid range Sr suntour stuff that comes as standard on most new affordable entry level mtbs.
Agrred.
In my experience mid range Marzocchi forks from 2003 are far better than Suntour XCR forks which are pretty entry level. The dampers are rubbish and spike so badly that sometimes it feels like you left the lockout on.
Go with the older high end stuff. Id take that 99 rockshox before any suntour
Sun tour on my bike and man it’s nice having some travel but it is a pos
stuff from 5 years ago isn’t that different from today, sure there’s been a few innovations but a 2015 fox fork doesn’t really feel different from a 2021 fox fork. older stuff will get you way more value though
I have a pair of marzocchi bombers z3 lights from 1998 I bought them 2nd hand back in 2002 I service them every year great forks and still feel as good as when I 1st got em 👍 great video
The gaters are a huge improvement over the current ones.
I live in a sandy area and it garentees the fork stantions are scratched to oblivion on short order.
I suppost they cant sell you another set if they last too well.
The excitement in Doddy's eyes is so real! Legend 🤙
It would make much more sense to compare the 1999 SID with the 2020 100mm SID or even the 100mm Fox 32 step cast... The Fox 34 is a trail fork, it's not an XC fork.
I often forget these are commercial videos
That's actually a 34 step-cast fork. And being "only" 120 mm travel set up for 29 inch tires - it's about proportional to the SID or comparable XC forks of '90s era.
My thoughts as well. And if it were cross-compared to Fox, should have been with a Fox 32.
It's not logical.
@@aluminumhorserider6197 Can remember when when Doddy was real good at getting tech really accurate, sadly not any more?
Would have something to do with audience that have no real knowledge, even google knows little about anything more than 5 years old?
Hey Doddy, Cory from West Virginia here. Love the retro v modern comparison video. I would love to see you do one on wheels. I remember having to true wheel after almost ever ride and buy new ones all the time. Now I’m 100 lbs heavier and have been on same wheels for 3 years and have just had the spoked tightened once. What had made wheels so great theses days.
this is what i love about gmbn tech - real in-depth, nerdy breakdowns of the things we use and how we got here! Great vid!
Votec GS4 was also nice. Upto 140mm of travel in 1998. Marzzochi came in later with an open oilbath and was the benchmark in sensivity. Love these old days...
I'm still rocking my 2010 fox 40 and my dad runs a 1998 RST fork
I had a yeallow RST 381.
Still rocking my 2009 fox 36 RC2 - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Cool I’ve got a 2010 fox 36
Monteiro I still ride the yellow rst on my 90s hardtail from time to time!
pfft. Gold Judy XC and a Quadra 21 on another bike
Not even watched 5 mins yet but those SIDs would be absolutely perfect on my old 2000 GT Tempest 😍
What color
I never expected to see Doddy use pliers to turn the hex fork caps on that vintage SID. He seems to have a tool for everything and I can hardly believe my eyes seeing Doddy use a giant plier on those caps. Am I missing something? Are the caps not built with a hex shape? Otherwise: beyond superb teardown, comparison and tech analysis. Thanks a million!!!
Those Pliers happen to be Knipex! Possibly the best wrench/pliers in the world (Carlsberg) also they are a smooth jaw. If you have a spare £250 you could buy a set of them!
Rock Shox Mag 21 with a long travel kit and Ti bolt kit.....THE BEST
I really appreciate you mentioning the materials and the process of manufacture for the parts, and even the metal in the kashima coating. It was great that you said the name of each part, as I didn't have to use separate resources to learn what you were talking about. Nice informative video, and easy to understand even for somebody who knows nothing about bikes. It's amazing seeing the changes made and I'm glad you talked about some of the benefits of each component. Thanks for making this.
22:22 imagine you've had a 2002 Marzocchi Junior T wich have a similar coating like the Fox has AND an open oil bath damping. I have one and the coating hasn't worn out a µm. It still works great after all those years.
I love how passionate and gassed up dodd gets seeing a nice retro MTB thing
I saved up every spare dime I had to upgrade from my Judy to the SID, I was so proud of them things😂
Back in the 90's I saved up to upgrade from a Rock Shox Quadra 5 to a Judy XC on my GT RTS.
“You should never hit the nuts directly”
Definitely not, can cause serious damage and ruin your rides.
Lol
😂😂😂😂👏👏👏👏
the new China virus will literally "attack your nutz" lol
fax
Proud owner of a 1999 SID XC. I love it. Super light and agile. It has mounts for a disc brake, but really just for show.
I've got a pair of Fox air shocks from the 1970's...Motorcycle that is... These are still in demand in the right vintage circles. Bob and Geoff Fox originally sold dirt bike accessories for CZ motorcycles so they took the stanchions from 35mm CZ forks and cut them down and machined some shock bodies and put an air bladder in them. Later they added another Schrader valve to adjust the negative pressure...and that's how they got in the suspension business.
I had a RockShox Judy XC from 1995 with elastomer and oil cartridge with an amazing 50mm travel on my Sunn 5000R :D That was a revolution at that time. Went through Fox from 2007, and now 2020 Fox 34 stepcast. And yes there is a world between those suspensions allowing us riding what we thought impossible at this time.
Thanks for showing us the inside of those beasts !
I had some judy xc forks in 95 on an Orange 🇬🇧 mtb
Having had three different XC forks in the last five years, ranging from RockShox entry level XC 32 coils through to current Reba & Fox 32 Step Cast Performance, I have to say the differences in actual performance are slight at best.
Air springs are easily adjustable and lighter, boost axles are more convenient, but other than that in terms of ride feel and outright performance out on the trail when all dialled in, I don’t feel the massive increments in cost go hand in hand with what you get as the end user. I personally feel that experimenting with tyre pressure has a more profound effect on comfort and handling than swapping out forks does.
I also think the serving schedules are beyond a joke for frequency.
Xc probably doesn’t take full advantage of the recent leaps forward in technology. Enduro on the other hand, I’ve noticed massive differences
I love the xc 32 for the price
T his is my coment for the price? It isn’t cheap. It may be cheap for Fox, but it still ain’t cheap.
32 cast fox 1000 pounds not cheap at all?
I completely agree.
Hey Doddy how about a retro pad brakes and modern disc brake comparison video. I’ve been watching a lot of restoration videos and have seen some interesting pad brakes followed by cool new disc designs. Love the videos keep em coming mate!
Doddy "thats pretty much all there is too it"
me. job for the bike shop i think
its easy after you first time dude
@@darkjm3 that's what she said !
Fantastic video. I love the level of detail. I did most of my mountain biking in the 90s, and I remember the Sid like it was yesterday.
Hi Doddy, I still ride my Judy 'Long travel' on my Cannondale SM500. Still works prob due to the protection of the rubber boots...
24:50 for reducing fatigue, ultimate grip and comfort, coil springs have it. But air has infinite adjustability.
Given the suspensions sole purpose is to keep the tyre on the ground and slow down the impulse of a bump, coils seem to win.
I still run fox 40 rc2 coil forks because they feel so much better. The ultimate adjustment seems negligible unless you are a top level pro that could possibly feel the difference. Or more likely see a couple hundreths of a second difference. Then that could also be less weight.
Maybe a coil air composite like rear DH shocks are the best feel. With new materials and titanium springs they could be the future.
Maybe I'm old and have ridden coil since the 90's. As long as elastomer forks and shocks stay dead we should be good 😂
adjustability is important even for non-pro riders. Not many people want a fork for one purpose, and often people adjust their forks for different trails. In addition, a fork is good only if it fits you. Coil forks that work for some people won't work for other riders of different weights, unless extensive modifications are made. But in my opinion, the biggest difference between coil and air forks is the weight. And what air forks have you compared your fork to? Modern forks have come a very long way, even when compared to forks from a few years ago.
Really really enjoy these ' tech talks' where you go in to fine detail about things. Yes I am a tech type, what used to be called a 'grease merchant' back in the day. Proud of it.
Keep them coming Doddy especially the old tech stuff like the recent Marin you serviced. Love these old/new comparisons as well👍
A grease merchant lol, is that a grease monkey that sells grease? 😂
I'd like to see you put the FOX 34 back together. I'm particularly interested in seeing how you would put the lubricating grease/fluid back into the shock and how you determine how much to put back in.
Agreed!
Great video on why you need to send your forks/shocks to pros for a service.
I have a Cane creek Helm coil fork on my bike and the grip and small bumb compliance is amazing.
I just finished building up a hard tail with the new Helm MKII and I have to say my initial impression is that fork is smoother than two sticks of butter having sex on a hot day.
@@batterybuilding I want to try that new helm MKII. The MKI is already amazong in either air or coil.
@@batterybuilding lmao what was that comparison!
Excellent vid, thanks! I once reconditioned one of those cartridge dampers out of a '96 Judy XC (the type with gold 3-piece lowers); extracted the old seals and got them matched up at a bearing shop, fitted one of the new seals and the piston, primed it and filled it to the brim with 5W fork oil, then pressed in the 2nd seal with a thin screwdriver between the seal lip and the damper shaft to bleed it. This was over 20 years ago so my memory is a little hazy but I guess the seals must have been retained by internal circlips.
In November I bought a 2008 Specialized Stumpjumper running the original Fox F120RL fork, I assumed (wrongly) parts weren't available and so purchased a 2020 RockShox Reba to replace it along with a Monarch RT3 rear shock. Very happy with this combo but it left me with an immaculate Fox F120RL sat on a shelf doing nothing. It turns out the air piston seal is actually available but not the wiper seals so I serviced them using RockShox grey 32mm seals and foams (the type for the original mid-2000s Reba) and they fit perfectly, the OD is exactly the same! So this fork was fitted to my Giant XTC7 26" wheel hardtail, replacing the RockShox 30 Silver TK Coil. These are great for the money but the F120RL transformed the bike, 25mm more travel and two thirds the weight, and I'm running 26" slicks for the road atm so the lockout is very welcome (ridden it offroad a few times though and it went well). The damper looks similar to the one out of those Fox 34s but without the bladder.
One thing I like to do with older QR dropout forks when servicing them is to refit the plastic dropout protector piece you get in the box when buying a set brand new; it's so easy to snap the lowers across the top of the arch otherwise and it protects the dropouts if you happen to drop the fork.
Not being up to speed with modern bikes I enjoyed the stripdown of the Fox 34s, thanks again!!
Fun fact, A vintage NOS rock shox SID, Judy could cost more than a modern fork. By the way that's not a rockshox SID, That's a Rockshox Judy XC!
Showing off your Knippex Wrench Pliers - fantastic tool!
When Jerry Vanderpool was closing up his company Hippie Tech I had the opportunity to purchase one of his last new old stock custom RockShox Judys he'd built from leftover service spare parts. All parts were new oem. I still ride it today. It's assembled from RockShox Judy SL lowers, dual coil springs with HydraCoil open bath damping, and Judy TT (I think) uppers that are steel stanchions nitride coated black with a steel steerer. It's an ounce over 4 pounds in weight with the steerer cut, has 100mm of travel, and no perceptible flex under my 200 lbs in use due to the all steel uppers and steerer. It's the only reason I've not upgraded my mtb because the Judy still works fantastically on New England singletrack.
Been mountain biking pretty much since I could ride a bike. I remember seeing these OG SID and Judy forks and just thinking how rad they were. Heavy speed nostalgia
History of parallelogram forks and alternative fork concepts would be interesting. Greetings!
Excellently detailed video. I have an older Hard Rock the one right before disc brakes came out. So will be attempting maintenance on them.
I have a 2001 z1 Atom Bomber race fork which still works like a champ! Coil sprung. I just serviced it last month.
One issue I've had was finding seals. I got some Marzocchi seals via eBay, but they had a small flange that was absent in the original seals, which meant I had to file the exterior around 1/3 of the circumference in order to avoid interference with the bridge/lowers interface.
“I should weigh them, to let you know what they weigh”
Well.... yeah
I had a "proper" sid long ago. It weighed around 1300 grams. Add the weight of the two coils, then subtract the air unit's weight you might end up at around 1400 to 1450 grams
1998 SID 1250/1200 grams with or without disc brake mount. it had also titanium parts like bolts and brake pivots. It was first SID ever.
what about sid vs sid?
Clearly a sponsored post to promote Fox over RockShox...subtly
@@qozmiq i don't know about that, but i guess it could be. i think its just that they had it and it was similar.
The Fox 34 isn't even an XC fork, it's a trail fork!... If you need to compare a Fox fork at least make it the Fox 32!
What about sid vs pokey!
They had to compare apples to oranges, as that’s what is takes to support the “bike tech has come a long way” claim. It hasn’t changed much, but the sponsorships and modern prices won’t let him say that.
Another amazing video Doddy, never had a SID but certainly had my fair share of those early forks. Pretty amazing how far we have come. Keep up the great work!
When some of my friends switched their elastomer forks to an air Marzocchi bomber Z1 and Z4 forks , it was a game change back then.
The holy grail was an yellow Judy SL or an red Judy DH from 1996.
I had yellow quad 21r....
Except....the weekly damper cartridge replacement!
I have the trio xc, sl and dh
I had a pair of rockshox judy xc and put blue springs in bombproof
Amen! I saved up for a Judy XC. I loved it. I eventually blew an air/oil cartridge. But had it repaired.
I'm on my very first air shock and its like a magic Carpet ride 👍 fifty years I've been riding and only ever had spring, when they first came out I had the old suntour heavy as hell xc range, cant hold a candle to this rockshox recon sl solo air 120mm ,beautiful looking beast just floats with its solo air piston, there's an ingenious indentation inside the Stanchion that equalisers the pressure from pos to neg when the piston seal passes over it.
Your the best Doddy always making killer content.
I'm on marzocchi 2002 Z1, they need a service but are great forks 👍
I just replaced a pair of sync fork with rockshox 32mm AIR ,its hilarious how beefy my old T6 ovation Marin looks 💪,now she rides like a magic carpet 🤘🇬🇧😎
I was disappointed that he didn't compare a Rock Shox to a Rock Shox. Fox did make some good 26" forks. Riding 26" wheels requires more skills than 29". Call me old fashioned but I prefer the older stuff. Manitou made a reverse arch fork that was much better than many of the popular Rock Shox forks. Marzocchi forks were very popular among many downhillers and people on the west cost of the US in the late 90's early 2000's. Thanks.
My Carrera Fury from 2001 with its Rock Shox Judy fork is still my primary bike.
Still like my Marzocchi open bath forks. So plush and low maintenance. Sad they don't make them any more.
I used to spend hours back in 1999 swapping out springs, dampers, getting the stanchions free from stiction to get the most dialed, plushest ride out of those forks.
Alot of info,in a short amount of time. Thank you henry.
I put my 2007 iron horse bike next to a 2021 diamondback, and man could you see a difference originally tires 3" bigger 26-29 take the tires off, and the diamondback still sat 4" taller everywhere except the seat stay, and seat post were surprisingly shorter by 1_5/32"
Well done Dodd. Nice video 🤙🏼
Love this channel, only been watching for a few days and Im hooked. Very informative and glad I came. Keep it up guys, y'all rock! 🤘🏼
Awesome episode. Thanks for using the bracketing in the timeline. That makes it easy to go back in order to rewatch some parts.
Cool video! I started Mtn Biking at a pretty young age (Headshok was a thing) and my first real bike had a Marzocchi "Zokes" fork which was elastomer sprung.
nice to see in 28 years how many modern forks are still around and working, considering most manufacturers don't support there products once there two years out of date
I learn more In these gmbn videos then school
3:22 Not going to lie, that retro bike looks badass!
"[...] The Kashima Coating on the Fox fork [...]"
21:28
Wait, which fork do you mean? The Fox or the other Fox?😂
Great video, very interesting to watch. I learned quite a lot.
That Rockshox’s a museum piece.😍
Last year I did my first cross country race in pouring rain on an old coil-fork GT from 2004. After the race my coils were permanently bottomed out pancakes and when i opened up my forks I had to pour out half a liter of brown water. My wrists hurt that day
The early SID’s were amazing in their day and still are quite good for light to moderate XC riding. The SID in this vid is basically a Judy with the spring swap instead of the original air spring setup.
Ah the good old days 😌. Remembering when I was in the school you didn't have a good bike unless it had RockShox. Oh and trying to stop with wet rims with V brakes in Vancouver😅🤣🤣🤣🤟🤙
Circa 1991-ish, my first shocks were Specialized Future Shocks (the only rival at the time to Rock Shox) and instead of shrader valves, you pumped it up with a needle pump like you’d use to pump up a sports ball. That was the only adjustment. Eventually the valve leaked and no replacement parts. Oh how far we’ve come.
I still have my Quadra 21R here. Wish I had gotten a long travel or spring kit for it back in the day. Really hard to get spare parts today.
Brother Eldrian: I just got replacement compression elastomers for mine :). It comes in a kit with 10 elastomers. Took awhile to find a supplier online. Fork is on a 1995 Bontrager Privateer. These days I use it for winter commuting to/from work. The fork is rated 60 mm of travel lol.
@@mrsmartypants_1 Nice one. Yeah but I used to be the king of travel until my buddies picked up the mach 5 of Manitou. Insane times compared to now. Where did you aquire the elastomers? I'd rather go with a spring and damper for sure though.
Brother Eldrian: Totally agree about the spring and damper. I wanted to invest as little money as possible in the bike and still have a nice riding bike for commuting. My bike money goes into my 2 modern mountain bikes. The headset (1”), seat tube (26.8mm) etc.. of the Privateer makes it extremely hard to find replacement parts. Here you go:
www.suspensionforkparts.net/eshop/rock-shox/rock-shox-quadra-21r-elastomer-refresh-kit-95-96.html
Nice use of knipex....loving ur fork service set up...😎
I'm still running a Judy SL, for my local trails were massive travel is not so critical, it's still perfect 25 years on.
I run a Judy SL as well but I think it's a 2001.
That looks similar to the fork that was on my late 90s Rockhopper...
Used to stick all the time
I love your security sandals.
Wow... that SID is so clean.
What’s this coil spring witchcraft? My old Manitou 2 forks were elastomer!
Best thing I did back in 2001 was get rid of a SID World Cup fork and replace it with the 2001 Fox fork. The difference was very notable, especially in the corners. The Fox was much stiffer (not as bendy) and didn't wash out like the SID (same tires). I still have that Fox fork (100 mm travel) mounted on my 2000 Litespeed, just some seal replacements only.
my sons bike is still using my 99 sid long travel 80mm works fine still
2:12 - Doddy, isn't 32 the XC lineup of FOX, and 34 - their trail range?
22 years on and coil is still far superior! Just stuck a Vorsprung coil conversion in my Fox 36 and it actually makes the fork worth the cost. Prior to that, no matter how good the Grip2 damper was, it was still limited by the air spring.
It took years for RS to sort out the SID air springs, which is probably why this one was modified to coil. The Marzocchis of the day were heavier, but more reliable. I had a 2000 SID and it lasted about 50 hours of riding before it crapped out, and I replaced it with a Manitou. I have a 2009 SID Team on a Giant Anthem, and it's bulletproof. It's about as good as 26" forks got before 27.5 and 29 took over, and it would be a more appropriate comparison example than this blue fossil. 32mm stanchions, 100mm travel, about 1.5 kg with an uncut steerer, the SID Team isn't very far behind the Fox featured here, other than the change to through axles.
What are the performance improvements of upgrading a front fork today? I'm not wanting to increase the travel, but obviously a £200 fork Vs a £500 fork must have some differences? Would it be worth the upgrade?
012chris210 you’ll get a slightly lighter fork with more adjustability for your body weight and riding style. Don’t expect life changing differences though.
Why don't compare SID to SID or SID to FOX 32
Marzocchi Z1 BAM would be a fairer comparison with the 34. Plus the Z1 was way plusher than anything else out there in '99
This is so relaxing
Doddy, you should have included the original 1995 RockShox Judy XC or SL into your comparison. They would have shown the huge difference in technologies between then and now. Colored MCU (Micro Cellular Urethane) bumpers in blue and red for different stiffness stacked together and an oil damper which is made with a flimsy plastic housing. Of course the MCU elastomers squashed and squished in any possible direction making adjustments impossible, which didn't matter since they completely disintegrated after some months and had to be replaced regularly. And the high-pressure oil damper had a lifetime of some 12 months before the plastic housing exploded and leaked all oil into the lower leg. The fork then turned into a wonderful pogo stick for some time, which then after total decomposition of the MCU bumpers sank down by 50mm and turned into a stiff fork which made you very aero since your front was 50mm lower. A lot of action for your money...
:D)))))
Im gonna rebuild my infusion and put the old sid on..full xtr all brand new...yes i am old thanx doddy..you would love my super v's
Great vid doddy, just for the maintenance side of things and then you chuck a load of history and knowledge on us.... What a legend
Dodgy not wishing to criticise but being a 38 year veteran gas fitter/plumber you shouldn’t use your adjustable grips backwards because they are prone to slipping and rounding off the edges love all the videos cheers Nick
Very interesting the new 2021 RS air spring changes make it look VERY like the Fox air spring, with that much bigger end cap on the air spring🤔🤔
That's pretty cool. I still have my Manitou on my Gary fisher. I didn't ride much so it still works great today. I would like to see the internals of a Manitou unless it's simar to the blue one you did. It's from around 2004/2005.
Just so you know I think it's pronounced mol-ib-den-em die-sul-fide
Shouts out to all my 26 inch hard tail in 2020 brother.
Hell yeah gt avalanche for life .own seven bikes one is suspentionon and its for sale
I've got roxshox reba rl on my supercaliber but upgrading to fox 32 cast all you need is 100ml on an xc bike! Gold on my Roscoe and lyrik on my slash!
Enjoyed looking at how much progress mtb suspension has had over 20+ years.
Would have been better to compare the old Rockshox Sid to the 2021 Rockshox Sid, though. That way it's apples to apples. Maybe in another Video?
And if you were to do cross comparison between brands, shouldn't it be compared to a Fox 32?
Then you would enjoy MORE the evolution of mx/dirtbike suspension, since that is how mtb suspension evolves. 👍
before they knew how to do this fork is still alive and this means a lot)
The SID in original air sprung set up is around 1200g. Mine is still sweet and weighs 1240g.
Cool video Doddy. Those forks would look sweet af on my new bike💯👍😎 whats the asking price?😆
I have 1990 Bridgestone, MBS, I removed the Rockshock and replaced it with a solid fork, the weight difference was
substantial.
You're right, my RS Judy are heavy.. maybe even unnecessary for the riding I do. I paid something like 200 bucks back in '98.
Would have been really cool if you had compared that Sid to the new one .
A comparison between the new sid and old sid would be cool. I wouldn't call the fox 34 sc a xc fork though. Down country? Light trail?
Great vid. Except I'd like to understand what a damper is. What is the internal of the damper? have you got a video to illustrate that technology and how it works?