Probably should have pinned this yesterday.... This is NOT a review of Blood on the Clocktower. This is my experience playing it and the various factors. As a game that is often played in similar settings, at conventions, with larger groups, etc etc. If you love this game, great. If you think this sounds like an experience you would avoid, then avoid it. Take what you want from this video but it's absolutely not a review.
It’s clear your title infers that it’s about blood on the clock tower to viewers. Suggest you maybe change the title of your review to ‘your horrible realization you don’t like convention demo experiences of larger social deduction games’. Also you say you’re down when you’re doing this video and has nothing to do with the game. Maybe you wait to review because the attitude leaks through on your review and your credibility as the reviewer. I hope all is well with you and yours.
You make it clear throughout the video that you have no interest in playing the game ever again. Multiple times in the video you state that you have issues with the games design. You just don't ever tell us what they are. The closest we get is at 16:30 when you talk about how long you have your eyes closed. It's unclear if that's a design flaw or just another issue with the location. I agree that this isn't a review of the game. You don't review it in the content. But you call out the game in the title. You condemn it as a game you'd never play again. You say you'll explain its flaws as a game. You structured this video as a game review. While I appreciate knowing that this game can be an extremely negative experience at a con, I wouldn't have watched a 20 minute video on just that. I'm looking for reasons why this game might not be worth trying because I haven't played it yet. Even your comment here makes it sound like I should find some of those reasons in this video. I didn't.
Lol, liar... You are lying and just trying to save face.. Rewatch your intro, because you literally say the exact opposite. This is click bait trash and a waste of everyones time. Your intro describes that the game is bad, but then describe everything but the game. Definitely won't watch any of your other videos if this is what you do... pathetic.
...then change the title lol. The title obviously implies it is a review, or at the very least that you have some legitimate criticisms of the game. But it isn't and doesn't; you barely even talk about the actual game at all, and your criticisms are almost exclusively about the venue and the fact that there were well over the recommended number of players. This video is so frustratingly bad that you now have the honor of being the first channel I have ever blocked on TH-cam. Such an absolute waste of time. 😒
20 players playing for the first time on a convention? That is a terrible setting, I don't think any game could withstand a chaos test with double of recommended players.
Oof, I run it monthly and I’ve been getting anxious about the amount of people wanting to attend and having only 1 copy (for now). With several new players I prefer about 12 max, but prefer 9 with nearly all new players.
One of the reasons I don’t like this video review is that he obviously doesn’t like demos of larger deduction games. And makes it sound like 20 players is double the recommendation and it’s not. From the publisher, “A captivating social deduction game of murder, mystery, and demons. Each player has an ability and is never eliminated.5-20 players.” I played it with 7 and with 18 or so people in convention settings. I’ve had some games that were better but I’ve always enjoyed it regardless of having experienced players or new.
The takeaway if you don't wanna watch 18 minutes of rambling: Don't sign up for a social deduction game with 20 people, half of whom you've never met before, in a crowded noisy room if you're an introvert - got it! This review isn't about the game, it's mechanics, its amazing replayability or endless combinations and puzzle-solving experience - it's about everything else than the actual game - but to say he never wants to try the actual game, with like 8-9 friends at home in a cozy environment is just stubbornness - like letting a bad party, where you puked on the floor lead you to saying, you'll never wanna party again. I've been storyteller twice with 4 games under my belt, with 8, 9 and 10 people, in it's been an absolute blast! Most of the players knew each other, and most players praised the game to high heaven both times - you could feel the adrenaline and euphoria in people as they left both nights. Sure, it's not for everybody, and sure the game can become "too big for itself", but that is actually the Storyteller's fault, not the game's.
I haven't played this game yet and was looking for takes that might balance out the overwhelmingly positive reviews I've seen. Instead I got twenty minutes of complaints about the location that had nothing to do with the actual game interspersed with promises that you had issues with the game itself. Finally at 16:30 you bring up an issue with the game design and it's just that you were left with your eyes closed for too long. No indication if that is typical for the game or if it's yet another product of the poor setting. You start the video saying that you wouldn't even attempt this game again. That's a pretty strong condemnation and I expected there to be substance about the game itself. It sounds like you had a truly terrible experience. I'm convinced I shouldn't try the game on a crowded convention floor. Other than that though, I don't feel like I learned anything about the actual game from this video.
I think the "45 minutes to teach the game" and "spent half the game with my eyes closed instead of playing" were pretty strong strikes against the game.
Yeah same - I got suckered in by the clickbaity headline, and all I heard were complaints about the noisy setting, the person running the game (45 minutes to get started is ridiculous) and nothing in particular about the game. Pointless video.
Oh wow, I feel clickbaited into a video that is all about badly organiced social deduction games at conventions and nothing about the actual game "blood on the clocktower" itself. Sorry that you had such a bad experience, but I had hoped for a bit more than the fact that it's not a good idea for an introvert to play a (way too big) social deduction game at a convention...
To be fair, this wasn't supposed to be a game for teaching new players. When we invited individuals, we asked which game people would like to play assuming that you would already know and be familiar with the games. It wasn't supposed to be about introducing new people to a new game. The game was advertised as only for experienced players and was supposed to be for paying players to have an experience playing a game they enjoyed with content creators from TH-cam.
Amber, first of all, I made it clear that this is not a complaint against anyone running the game. This was purely about my experience with it, what did and didn't work for me both situationally and the game itself. That said, speaking frankly....that's almost worse. What I just heard from you is that you're "selling me", without being concerned whether it's a fit for me? No one told me it was for experienced players and I made it clear it was my first game when I accepted. While I didn't and still don't have any complaints against anyone, this makes it worse, not better.
@@BoardGameCo I'm confused how that was the takeaway from my comment. We failed to communicate that we wanted you to pick a game that you enjoyed already. That's on us. My point was that yes, this was a failure of us as the organizers to communicate that out prior to the event. So of course it was not an ideal situation for you. And I'm incredibly sorry about that.
@@BoardGameCo Sounds like u messed up by joining this “pro” game while being a noob. U didn’t know how to play. U didn’t know the players. U didn’t know the rules. U didn’t know the interactions. U didn’t know how to calculate player interactions.
@@BoardGameCoNo, it really doesn’t make it worse, it makes it a miscommunication. She’s already apologized . You can afford to show some grace here, especially since you have to bear some of the blame. You know conventions, and you put yourself in this situation, anyway. You also didn’t prepare at all. I find this entire video in bad taste. A better topic might have been optimizing your chance for a good experience with a new game. Or, how to avoid irreparably damaging your first impression of a game.
Sounds like he knew the environment wouldn't work for him going into it but did it anyway? Most of the problems weren't to do with the game mechanics either. Pretty sure if someone offered to teach me Brass Birmingham in a nightclub I might know that it would annoy me.
Strange critique, the problems you seem to have are to do with the environment you played in, rather than the game itself.But maybe these games are not for you.
@@BoardGameCo what you dont make clear though is how it logically follows that because of these external factors you will never play the game again. its odd because there are plenty of games that you gave second/third chances for the very same criticisms. You have failed to justify your conclusion. Hiding behind the "this isnt a review" doesnt absolve you of this.
Blood on the clocktower is amazing. I watched this to see why you didnt like it. And honestly at that many players, i dont think id like it. This is a game for around maybe 7 - 12ish players. That just seems super chaotic and no way to find out any actual information. Hats off to that story teller trying to play with that many people.
@@j.r.cilliangreen4083 it also depends on maturity and discipline. and also if people know each other. i could get 100 people i know are really well diciplined and play it with them. but 10 strangers who dont know eachothers ticks is wild. i can see a group that large at a convention being a slog. like if you had 10 pairs of people youd end up with every pair nominating eachother for a joke. where as 20 people who know eachother wouldnt need to get that out their system
6:03 The appeal of board game cafes: They're *not* noisy, the tables are large, you can utilize their board game collection, you can order food/drinks, it provides a good meeting place without "intruding" anyone's home. Not everyone has a large home with a large table for board games.
the good ones will also play new games with you and teach you games. theyll also mother you through the complexities of a game like botct and help mplayers who might struggle
You're review (and yes thats what it is, a review of your experience) does not follow logic. The event was poorly organised, too noisy, too many people and it was not explain you needed to be a veteran, but you take it out on the game and not that awful experience? if I was playing 20 person monopoly in a warzone with the top rated monopoly players in the world I wouldn't take that out on the game. seriously, make it make sense, I want to know.
Lol of course it sucked. I love blood on the clocktower. It's an AWESOME logic puzzle, rivaling Avalon. Every single issue you mentioned would be rectified if you played in a room without other games running and played with 7-12 players. Also playing with friends/family would help. First of all, there were way tooooo many players. It's not possible to follow the all the characters or the board state as a new player. Especially since 5 had to be travelers, which is a whole new role type that has its own rules (that aren't fun imo). You can't contribute your thoughts in a game with 20 players. Even as players die, they still participate and have 1 remaining vote (unlike Mafia) so I can imagine you had to be aggressive to get a word in. Also the nights take FOREVER with 20 players! The storyteller needs to wake up so many players every night AND track an insanely complex board state. Btw that's also why setup took so long. Definitely a hard pass with those playing conditions. You should try it again at 7 players - it should take in total not longer than an hour.
yap, 20 strangers is so bad. if you had 10 pairs of people come in theyd all want to nominate their friend and that takes ages.. its so hard to wrangle that many strangers who 8 of which seemed to have never played the game before. 1 or 2 fine the st can have some extra time with them to explain possibilities. but 8 new players in a 20 player presumably not the starter script aswell. just no
For anyone who is actually wondering how this game is played I highly recommend No Rolls Barred 's playthroughs. This infuriated me to listen to. I've never seen someone complain about keeping their eyes closed with such passion in a game that requires players to not know each other. This is like someone shitting on a painting because the line for the museum was too long, and the a/c was broken and their camera died before they could take a picture of it and makes a video saying that the painting itself was the worst thing he's ever seen in two years. Nothing at all about mechanics of the game, no actual criticism at all, and yet you'll never play it again, but it's not a review of the game.
@@BoardGameCo i may be, I’ve waited three years for this game and have seen it played properly enough times to spend the money on it. You had one experience and because you played a game with an unrealistic amount of people in the loudest most frustrating environment and you’re telling your audience that you will never play it again. People hear that and must think the game is like that everytime and it’s not and personally I think it’s silly that you even made this video. Play it under proper conditions two or three times THEN make a video saying it’s your worst experience ever.
i genuinly ran this game at uni so many times and told people before you play watch as many of the in person games and early games of NRB because it saves so much explaining time. honestly nrb deserve all the pandemonium institutes money for having the most comprehensive guides to the game. i wont lie, its hard to grasp at first. but once you understand it there are so many ways it can be adapted to specific needs. you dontt even need to close eyes, boxes and everyone turns around to a desk where they write their night time interactions. and you give blank slips to non nightitme players. or even text messages. you send the non active players at night texts to respond to about cheesecake or how purple zebras are so they all read and text stuff. it is also a hobby game. it is almost a lifestyle choice of a game. if id never played the game before and went to a convention where the entire cast of NRB wanted to play with me and my inexperienced friends and it included all the cast doing their usual shenanigans and bits i too would be overwhelmed as f*ck. especially if i didnt clarify with the ST that id never played before and had no experience of the game.
If this is the most popular negative account of the game, and it's so specifically focused on the bad situation you played the game in... I think that actually speaks a good deal towards how great this game is.
I’m never going to play Twilight Imperium ever again, it is the worst game I ever played, because we tried to play it in a Tokyo Train in the busy hour and they served Eel to eat and I hate eel. Worst game ever.
Not here to defend BoTC, it's not for everyone, I get it. I do find your review to be rather poor, though. You spend half the time talking about yourself and you come right out of the gate saying you will never ever play this game again, and then proceeds to listing a series of factors outside the actual game that contributed to the poor experience, which could easily be fixed in a different setting. (Insane player count, extended wait time, noise, many strangers) Isn't it rather obnoxious to refuse to ever touch something again, because external factors, which could easily be resolved, made it a poor experience? It's like saying you'll never attend another concert of a certain band because of rain and a power outage. You tried something once, under the worst possible conditions, and now you're here, ready to share your review with the world
@@BoardGameCo I know. You are painfully aware of the external factors that led to your poor experience, yet, still come to the conclusion that you will never play it again. I guess it's a wrong on my part for thinking you are making reviews.
@@SgtKean Life's too short, you have to make choices and navigate your way through based on what your experience tells you you'll like or not. The choice is rarely "Play Blood on the Clocktower or sit in silence with my thoughts for 3 hours". It's always "do X, Y or Z" - I'm sure there are things you've never tried that you've just figured are "not for you" - ballet and opera are two common ones. Nothing wrong with that. (And the point of making the video is that, next time Alex makes a video about a social deduction game, someone will ask the question "What do you think of Blood on the Clocktower?" regardless)
"I didn't knew how the game work beforehand", "I didn't like the environment we played", "I didn't knew anyone there", "The person running did a great job", "This isn't a critic on the game", and it end in "I'll never play this game ever again"? This video is all over the place
Blood on the Clocktower is HANDS DOWN!!! The best social deduction game ever created. Over 100 roles and more will most likely be added. You need to give it another chance.
and countless community custom scripts and characters. and you dont even really need to buy the game to play it if you have a printer and some time as its all available online
I think most of your complaints stem from this being at a convention and the fact that you were 20 people. Way too much. Your feeling of having your eyes closed most of the time is also likely made worse by the fact that you were so many players. That being said, if you don’t like the WW style of games, this might just not be for you. Hope you manage to get some sleep!
So not really a review of the game itself. Kinda like trying to eat a pizza while riding a bicycle in the rain and then saying “pizza was my most disappointing meal of the year”, ha.
Not a single person I've pulled into this game has disliked it. Your setting and mood were terrible and that's no reason to attack a wonderful game for it.
Six mins in and I know that you don't like talking to your friends, don't like playing games in public and that you don't like blood on the clock tower (still don't know why on this one). What I do know is that you like talking about yourself and for some reason think everyone else also wants to hear about you and your pet oeeves. Sorry dude but I'm off..
I'm sorry you played what is the worst possible experience for Clocktower. That is not a representation of what the game normally is, or should be. I personally think they (TPI) shouldn't have even suggested 20 players being possible in the design of it (the worst part is that any players beyond 15 are forced into being Travellers, which can be voted to die at any time in the day and most people are paranoid about leaving Travellers alive for more than a day or two). Having all the convention distractions on top of that has got to have been rough. From what I've seen from people that run BotC at conventions, the target is 8 or 9 players. You played double that. I would never ever once run a 20 player game, period...let alone with new players. Anything beyond 12 is just chaos (I know from personally being in a 15 player game). Yes, like you mention expecting, there is an ideal player count and most people agree on 8-12. Even then, I'd try avoiding 12 players with new players. 7-10 is probably safe, but lower is better since it's less to learn and less info going around. Night phases should definitely not be a majority of the time, even with 20 people. I don't know what the numbers usually are, but for 12 players, it's more like a couple minutes for night and about 10 minutes for day. Maybe the fact you're not engaged in gameplay (and already feeling like shutting down) exaggerates the feeling of time passing? Maybe the ST added in too many roles that act in the night or is going very slowly to ensure she's doing it right? It most certainly shouldn't be 50% of the game. Day is probably on average 4 or 5 times longer than night. What's ironic is the description of what you like in social deduction is what I love most about BotC. There's a puzzle to solve, and usually the ST has set you up with a situation. It's up to the good players to work out that puzzle while the evil players try to throw wrenches in it with false info or be a distraction. It's not a shouting match with very limited info, like Werewolf/Mafia. You can find ways to test people, create chains of trust, narrow down your worldview, etc. but there's still room for evil to have a chance (e.g. Drunk/Poison status). It's very similar feeling to One Night series. You don't have to remember everything, because you can choose to trust someone to share your info with and you can all work together to parse all the info. (Of course, having 20 players just about guarantees you won't be able to parse all that info. Too many voices. Too many distractions. Not enough time.) If you mean that having to listen to 19 other players' stories and info is overwhelming, I fully get that. It's why I'd never run it with that large of a group. I'd shut down as well. I practically did in the 15 player game I played. I won't say I hope you try BotC again because I know the experience has scarred you and will shade how you feel about it in the future. I personally have a vendetta against Settlers of Catan because my first games of it were with people who played the game in very toxic and anti-social ways. I'm sure it's a good game, but I'll forever hate it and you'd be struggling to convince me to give it another shot. Like you say about BotC, there may be a world where I do give it a shot, but I likely won't. *P.S.:* Sorry for the essay. I'm quite obsessed with Clocktower and honestly believe it's the best social deduction game out there. The only ones that can compare are ones with a niche like Deception, in my eyes. My only beef with it is the fact I can't get groups of 8-12 people to play, and that's on me and my situation.
This video should have lasted 3 minutes explaining the issue about being half the time doing nothing but being eyes closed. The rest is not about the game, man
This honestly sounds more like a criticism of the organizers of the event, and not necessarily BotC. If you look on the events page on Origins' website, it says previous experience is required to play. Sounds like they messed up big time by allowing a bunch of new players play in a 20-player game. I feel bad for anyone that paid $12 to play and end up with the same experience you had, especially when they could have played for free in any of the other games being run at smaller player counts.
When we invited the content creators, the idea was that we presented a list of games that we ran and asked if the creators wanted to play any of those specific games. Apparently, our failure was that it wasn't stressed enough for folks to pick a game that they enjoyed playing, not something that they had never seen before.
Your needs are wrong! LOL But really Blood on the Clocktower is a transformative game. Literally the only game that I can get more than 4 people together to play, and when we ask people jump to want to come over and play again. Play in a real setting, not a shoehorned hotel meeting room.
Dont agree with this one but hey not here to always think exact same thing :D understand what you are saying but i love it so much . Really made an evening out of it prepared rooms in the house with themes for people to cahoot and scheme they loved it .
I would really hope you do another video after you play it again with a different settings, perhaps with lesser ppl (9-10?) in a decent room setting as well as everyone came prepared (pre-study the scenario as well as the roles involved). I must be lucky I had one of the best game nights in a while. Disclaimer: social deduction game was not my favourite genre. Long story short, had a friend invited me over for Blood on the Clocktower and he made sure everyone pre-study the roles involved in the scenario (Trouble Brewing), I was skeptical as I saw the 3.05 weight on BGG (that’s heavier than Castle of burgundy and Concordia!), instantly I knew I have to spent a longer time to understand the game rules similarly to games like CoB but I didn’t think I spent too much time on this as I just need to study 21 roles. We were playing the same scenario twice in a row, with 9 ppl (+ story teller) in a house with separate rooms for private discussion, host put on thematic background music during night phase and due to smaller group we didn’t have our eyes closed that long, given everyone came pre studied the roles we can get the game started after like in 15mins? Some of us did ask questions for the more difficult roles like drunk and recluse but no biggies for me. All in all we had a blast and we were still talking about the game the next day, which is a good sign. For me not being too good at putting an ‘act’ on social deduction game like werewolf or Avalon where you HAVE to talk in front of everyone this game offer me to do well as I can talk with a smaller group in private which I can certainly play (act) better. I think I would play this again and I hope you would give the game another chance when you can play it with the right group, right time and place.
I think my biggest complaint with this video is that the title is misleading. I would recommend "Here's how NOT to play BotC" instead. Putting in the title that the game was "disappointing" does yourself a disservice because it makes the game seem inherently flawed and that's not even the point you're trying to get across. But sure, there is definitely a "right way" and a "wrong way" to play it (like all social games) and I found this video valuable because it made me think of some of the "wrong ways" I should avoid when I host my own games. But the title is just so infuriating because it makes the game look bad when in reality the blame should be pointed at this event's organizer(s). Maybe the title is clickbait? Well, it certainly baited me.
All social deduction games are inherently flawed, because they're inherently pitting people against each other in real life, rather than placing them in the context of a game. There is always - ALWAYS - without fail, the person who is aggressive, the person who does nothing but lie, the person who tries to use external information against everyone. It is a horrible experience, not just when playing, but often even when *seeing* people play them.
So BOTC is my #1 game of all time - interestingly I actually don't like many other social deduction games like Avalon or wearwolf but BOTC holds a very special place in my heart. Listening to your game experience I can almost guarantee the highest detriment on your enjoyment was trying to play your first game at so many players... There is a HUGE amount of leaning to do in BOTC and more than basically any other game I've played it rewards multiple plays and familiarity with the game mechanics... In smaller games you have to interact with far fewer characters and there is inherently a lot less going on. It's also a lot quicker and the night phase (where you close your eyes) is significantly shorter... Now I'm not saying that BOTC is definitely for you - it's not a game for everyone and that's ok :) but just know the experience you had is really not typical of a normal introduction play and if you did give it a go again at a lower player count with people you know I would expect you to have a much much better time (even if ultimately deciding it wasn't a game for you!)
As an introvert myself, these sorts of gaming experiences definitely take a lot out you. I learned BOTC at a convention, but enjoyed it more when played in a quiet game night setting. The logic puzzle to unwind is fascinating. The one complaint I have about the game is the alpha gamer problem. This game rewards multiple plays, so it inevitably welcomes those who want to dominate the conversation, because that have it all "figured out."
@@midgesmoot1739 I think this is a brilliant rule as I’ve played it eight times in conventions and there were a couple times that we had alpha gamers. That would definitely have solved it!
The other one that might be important to include is the *Angel* because it will protect a new player from being stomped on by an experienced player without serious consequences. I used Angel when I introduced three new players in a 10 player game and it was enough for the experienced players to back off a bit and not just throw a Chef on the block for not wanting to share info or something similar. Another option is *Revolutionary* pair an alpha gamer with a brand new player and ask them to try to not overwhelm the new player with the strategy. This one is only going to work if the player realizes they're alpha-gaming and self-correct to try and work with the newbie in a productive way. It does, however, make it so they can't just alpha game and point out the newbie as obvious evil or, on the flip side, frame the newbie good player as evil. They're forced to work with them.
I dont get this it sounds more like you had problems with external factors rather than the game itself, you acknowledge this and then your last complaint the one about the game itself was it had a lot of downtime.... right, after saying that you made the game a 19-20player game? so sounds to me like you had a shit experience because it was in the wrong setting, with too many people you didnt know, too many new players and with too many players in general. Since 3 of your gripes were to do with the player count you were playing with (and around for that matter) why would the game be at fault here? Also just to add ofcourse it has logic, watch a NRB gameplay of it especially one with Carley and you can see her using logic to solve the game. It usually starts off with social reads all social deduction games do but each game of BoTC certainly has a solvable puzzle. Also, just saying its not a review doesnt change anything you posted a video with opinions on a game that a number of people are calling you out that your criticisms seem to be directed towards the wrong thing... Ultimately it seems a shame to write off a game entirely just because you played it in the wrong setting with the wrong amount of people.
I think I would hate the experience you had. I think I would love this game under normal circumstances (7-12 people. In a curated environment. Etc.) But I really like RPG's and I think this game asks for something like an RPG experience which is something you have commented on disliking in the past.
'No offence to anyone running the game, any of the players in the game, the organizers of the event, or the makers of the game itself, please, no offence...but this was the worst night of my life and it was the worst experience ever and I'll never play it again. But no offence...please.'
I really want to try this... But man, it seems you guys made ALL the mistakes in that session... 20 people playing the game for the first time, many of whom don't know each other, in a Convention setting?!? Jesus, that must be hell!! On BGG it says the game plays best with 8 to 12 people... they also recommend it with 6 and 7, and from 13 to 16 (I would say 15 because 16 has a lot of Not recommended votes!) and I'm pretty sure these recommendations aren't in the setting you were in, convention with loud noises and distractions. Also, this looks to me like a more involved Social Deduction game than they usually are, so this adds up to the bad experience you had... you also talk about staying 50% of the time with your eyes closed waiting for things, probably an exaggeration on your part, like you said, but it's how it felt to you... I would say it's normal, you were playing with 20 people!! Lots of roles, lots of things to be done! I'm pretty sure you managed to destroy what looks, to me, to be an excellent game with all those things :\ Sorry about that
LOVE THIS GAME! Just played this over the weekend with 7 players and a rotating storyteller. Played this for about 7 hours straight and everyone had a great time and cant wait for the next session. just sounds like you had a bad experience and decided to give a bad review of the game without actually giving the game a chance. Seems like a very bias review and an overall bad take...
Even his "genuine" complaints are not typical. I regularly run this game in Sheffield, UK. The things you need to know can be introduced in at Max 10 minutes. Now if I'm having to set up the Grim I have another experienced ST/ Player do the intro talk which is only ever necessary if there's new players. So that 10 minutes approx is it for set up. Thats whether it's 5 or 20 players. The first night phase does often take longer but you slowly get shorter nights as night waking roles die. It never even approaches half the game even if you do the night phase really methodically. Usually a little less than 3 minutes down to about a minute later game so on average maybe a total of 10 minutes in an hour long Trouble Brewing. Day phases including Nomination period maybe 12-15 minutes per day again getting shorter as the game goes on. Everything here screams that the experience has been heavily canted by personal biases and atrocious conditions. I'm not sure how someone took 45 minutes to do the set up. My advice to this person. Is get people you know outnumbering those you don't. Play it in an atmosphere that is more conducive. Don't right it off. Give it another go. I run this in a large game store for the Store as well as have Unofficially official games as well. We usually get a large ish side room to run it. I've built the group up so if necessary we can run 5 towns (mostly 2 at moment to manage group size but at this level of group development we plan for 3). The store is happy to accommodate. Bear in mind that usually the shop is full of wargamers on nights we play so those groups nearer that action do have to deal with some extra noise however we are still using areas slightly segregated. I'm totally unsure also why he played at all given he has expressed dislike of large social games. I mean kudos he tried but it he doesn't like a majority of the things happening even without that then 🤷🏼♂️ As an ST I'm lucky I will admit. I don't have to think of numbers other than when to start another town and split optimally. I have several ST's with Grims who are happy to take up that role. I have a venue that caters (Nay even bends over backwards to accommodate us, Thank you Patriot Games Sheffield) for us. Sorry if this is ranty but I just feel this is an unfair swipe. Listening to this felt more like watching someone punishing a kid for scalding themselves when proper precautions weren't taken in the first place! At least try it in more optimal conditions, you may find out that that puzzle aspect so loved is actually there, because it is. Anyway.
Right, let me stress you that I have not played the game at all, and sure I understand it is not a review but it is a "vowed I will not play this game again" vote and that is a very binary thing to say and I want to know about it. So with this information I am looking forward to the reasons why: The game itself is so bad one should never play it. And oh boy was I disappointed. So I watched this ENTIRE video with that piece of information in mind. And what I found was, bad game setup, bad gaming environment and a dislike to "werewolves" to start with. Aaaaand basically , if you play with loads of players you are eyes shut for a long time and that was anoying..... Full stop, no analyses of the player powers, how they work together or against each other. No analyses of interaction between players, just a: It felt bad to me and that's it. If this is all that it takes to ward you off from a game. Not just stating it was a bad experience, but actively stating you will never play this game ever again due to it. Then please stop commenting on boardgames. Just stop. You are not helping people taking informed choices on the question: Is this game for me. Thank you for nothing, I am not a single clue the wiser on this game. (exept that playing in a realy crowded and noisy area with an active dislike towards maffia like games, and way too many players will not play in its favour, but that's not a valid reason to not play a game)
Totally understand what you meant when you said a large group mutes you totally resonates with me. I’m in my element when in a small group of 3-4 friends. Once that group goes above 7, I’ll struggle to feel lively.
Playing in a crowded room is obviously not the game's fault. There is plenty of information to deduce in BotC compared to Werewolf. It sounds like you just played with too many people, especially the first time you're playing. You can also keep talking when your eyes are closed in BotC. How can you judge a game that obviously wasn't played in the right circumstances? Would you play Caverna the first time with 7 players? Also, the teaching would obviously be 0 minutes if everyone had played before. That's a weird criticism.
@@BoardGameCo You said you'd never play the game again, though. The game shouldn't be played the first time with 20 people or ever in a loud environment. Dice Tower Con has rooms dedicated to these types of games. Social Deduction is one of my favorite genres, and I think it's unfair to judge the amount of information to puzzle out in BotC compared to Werewolf. It's much more like Resistance or One Night. And like I said, the talking can continue at night in BotC, not that it should be near 50%, but it's also still playing the game.
Sounds like a chaotic first play that emphasised issues that you seem predisposed to dislike due to your personality. Don't know if this setup justifies the clickbait title and overly negative monologue. Bit bizarre!
@@BoardGameCo The entire thing. You're taking advantage of the hype of the game and putting that it's the worst experience you've had to get views. You then went on to complain about the environment that you played it in and not even the game itself. It's the definition of clickbait. Your title should have been "My worst convention experience ever."
It's sad hearing this as someone who thinks BotC is one of the best gaming experiences out there. I would say to try it again under better circumstances but maybe it's just not for you. I played it at UKGE last week but luckily they were in a somewhat quieter corner of the expo. Also numbers were kept to max 15. In better circumstances you shouldn't be eyes shut more than 25% if the game. Plus you can still openly talk when asleep.
I have ran about 75 of these games and it sounds to me there was 3 issues. Two of the issues I feel like you need to suck it up which are the noise issue and playing with people you don't know. You volunteered to play this game in a loud setting and with how you were able to invite as many people as you liked. You should have expected there would be other players you wouldn't know. You know yourself better than anyone. You should have requested a private game or just not have played. The third issue was your story teller. I'm sorry she sounded like she had no idea what she was doing. You had your eyes closed for 50% of the game is insane. It should have been more like 5-10%. The first night is longest and will take some time but after that your nights should take 2-3 mins at most. It is insane to me that they allowed travelers in a game with so many new people. Your storyteller really needs to improve their game.
This is some real clickbait lol. "I hated playing this game for the first time at well over the recommended player count and in a terrible setting" isn't exactly a hot take.
In our group we had some amazing games with twenty players (five of them travellers). Yes, it is long and comlex, yes, you probably will die long before the end of the game. But you still can and should listen to everyone, talk to people, think what's going on (or how to distract the town from your demon XD). In big games a lot of fun interactions can happen.
I had a thought on board game cafes the other day. Some of my friends don’t want to play because their house is a mess. Although I advocate for keeping things tidy. I think it’s nice to have the option to meet someplace without the overhead of housework.
Lack of friends and a place to hopefully meet some, a lack of location to play at ones own house, messy house, a fun public atmosphere, potentially more people to get higher player counts, and so much more.
Yes. It's nice to have a hangout place that isn't anyone's home. Also not everyone has a big house with a big table for board games. Or they have a family that would get in the way of gaming. :D
plus having a chance to play boardgames no strings attached. i dont wanna spend money on a board game. he literally demonstrated that he benefitted from not having to buy botct in order to decide he hated it. imagine just having the grim cluttering your space
Making a controversial thumbmail and title is your prerrogative as a content creator but let's not pretend this vid is anything else than clickbait by way of an apparent contrarian opinion of a popular game. Featuring the game here was as useful as if I said "My worst gaming experience ever - AZUL: I played it naked while semisubmerged in a bog in winter, and someone shot me in the balls on my third turn. Kinda makes me sour about playing it again"
That's an absolutely reasonable takeaway....except for the fact that I put out nearly 2000 videos on the channel and I barely ever engage in clickbait...so if this is just clickbait then why here? Why now? What actually happened, is I was looking forward to playing a very popular game and the experience was terrible...and so I made a video while trying to distinguish between the issues with the session vs the issues with the game. Your azul comparison would be great...if that were a normal way to play Azul. Sadly the way I played Blood is a fairly typical experience for the game.
@BoardGameCo Your last comment about the dishonest comparison may be fair enough, but then you'd be at fault for mentioning the game at all. You could have made this video about playing in the right headspace, researching the game a bit in advance to know if it's gonna be for you, how more social games aren't always ideal for more introverted types, or how you don't have to expect to love whatever game vox populi deems great. All those topics are interesting for discussion, and not so common issues in the typical discourse for a boardgame channel. And you did cover them well! I just think featuring a specific game's box art and name was the wrong approach here.
I’ve run 50+ live games of BOTC. Unfortunately this experience does not sound very representative of the game. Environmental issues aside, setup and first night should never take that long, even at a very high player count (which like any game compounds down time). It’s night and day with a more curated experience.
Could well be. I tried to keep my feedback on the game itself limited to the closed eyes, and the rest I think was enviromental with the caveat that many people play this game in that enviroment.
First time watcher on your channel, saw the video and because I adore BotC I was curious to hear a differing opinion. And man as an introvert myself, that experience does sound truly horrendous. Just an avalanche of factors that pile up to the point that it could be the greatest game ever and it wouldn't have been a remotely enjoyable time. I am super sad to hear though that you are hard against ever playing the game again though, you described quite possibly the worst way, in every possible way, to play that game for the first time. I do not think you got a clear view of what the game can be at all, and I suppose you never will because of external experiences coloring everything so negatively.
This is hard to believe ^^ 45 min before starting the game is far too long xD 10 min are enough time to explain it And why would anyone play this in a noisy room?
basically tbey fucked it. its being played in a noisy room cus they signed up for a money costing experience. and it took 45 mins cus they said ill take 8 people to this 12 player game
Terrible review. Honestly, this 'review' is just utterly disappointing and tedious commentary on your experience with social games in a setting that was not designed with specifically your wants in mind. You speak not of the game but of your social experience with the players which in any other social game, would still present the same issues to you. At least be honest with yourself. This video is a bad take in bad taste, as much as you've denied that in the comments.
I played it in a board game pub in London first with about 10 and then about 20 near total strangers. Both were extremely fun but the second one with the big group was one of the most fun experiences I've had playing a game.
I feel unless you have a very specific gaming group, I would wager the best experience of BOTC has to be the No Rolls Barred playthroughs. The game seems very cool, but I've accepted that it's not likely I will ever experience it at that level.
NRB has been playing a lot of it and they don’t do it in person, which is why I think it does so well. They did it in person once, but honestly the game works better using the town center website to play the game. They also always use Ben to do the story telling, this means no one is truly seeing how the game plays as a story teller, since none of them have the opportunity to just be that, yeah they have a “co-host” from their group so Ben has someone to talk to, but that isn’t the same as being the story teller. My wife was ready to buy the entire game, but we also don’t have a large enough play group for it unless we play online. Also if we do play the game we would need to play it almost exclusively as one of our weekly games to get any kind of value from the real physical copy. I honestly think BOTC is one of the most unique and interesting deduction games out there, but if you are a player who gets a role that doesn’t really do much, or you are new and drunk then you only get bad info and the game doesn’t feel good. Sure there will be a few people who think they had a good time and would want to do it again, but it’s ultimately a game that should be an app, or website, never played physically.
I debated that....but since this is a game that is often played at conventions in settings like this...I thought it was reasonable to keep it included.
I think a lot of the problems were due to wrong player count and environment. I think this game has some very special requirements: 1) Private setting, preferably somewhere comfortable (a home) 2) Group of 8-10 people, this would limit the downtime 3) The people know each other, or majority of each other I bet if you did this with the people you know at the convention, in a private room, your experience would've been much better.
@@seansmith2650 It's similar to Resistance's or One Night's requirements. I would take away having to know each other, but every social deduction game is better if you know people.
@@windbane69 Not really. They all run well with 5. Going from 5 people to 8 people is a big jump. Both in people required and space to host them. And if you're agreeing it should be a private setting, then you're probably going to know people. Generally we don't invite strangers to our homes!
@@deano2099 Oh, I assumed that setting requirement included a side room at conventions, like ones that DT has. Resistance and One Night work with 5, yes, but they are better with more.
@@seansmith2650 I played it in convention centers eight times with 7 up to about 18 people. Most of the convention settings that I played it at were in a quieter space then obviously this reviewer had. We also started faster than 45 minutes. Most of his review was about him not liking the scenario he was in or how he would not like to demo this game in a convention setting. Not about this game. Almost everyone wouldn’t be demoing a game in a convention. So that’s not a good comparison. The game itself runs very well. But you should know what you’re doing as in any game you are leading. I really enjoyed playing this game and has phenomenal potential for small to large groups up to 20. When I finally get my copy I am nervous about leading it. This video did make me realize to play in a more controlled setting than a convention floor room. From the publisher “A captivating social deduction game of murder, mystery, and demons. Each player has an ability and is never eliminated.5-20 players.”
I've lost count of the number of games I've run of BOTC. Must be closing in on at least 100. From my experiences running I now limit the game to 8-12 players when I can, especially at cons. This is my favorite game of all time! High player count games can work in the right circumstances, but I never find it ideal. Most of my 12 player games last 75-90 minutes. Also my teach lasts 15-20mins without interruptions.. I like to get the first night going and if anyone has questions about character powers I ask they pull me aside once we've begun.
I respect that this is your opinion and you are, of course, entitled to it. However, I think that by saying that you would never play BOTC again based off of your first and only experience undersells what the game actually has to offer. I will agree that a 19-20 Player game in your first game is probably FAR too ambitious (I personally feel that 12 players is the optimal player count.) However, the statement about spending 50% of the game with your eyes closed is dependent on your role, which we unfortunately don't have much context behind from this video. I can understand if you were a role that doesn't wake up at all, such as the Mayor or Recluse, that you might find that a little insufferable, especially during such a large game. But much of the joy behind the night phase is wondering whether or not the Demon will spare you so that you are able to use your ability, or being woken to use your Minion ability to mess with the Good team. I have played many games where, during the night phase, players will still talk and interact about non game-related things (hell, we even did a full rendition of Bohemian Rhapsody in one game), so there are still ways of being entertained during the night phase, although I appreciate the loud and congested setting for your game might have made that a little more difficult. All in all, I would say that you should at least give the game a second chance, but in a more comfortable environment with players that you know, or are prepared to get to know over time. I say this as an avid BOTC Fan and Content Creator. And yes, not every game will be perfect or as enjoyable as you hope it will be for a myriad of reasons that are often out of your control. And even if you don't want to "play" the game yourself, you can always learn the Storytelling aspect of the game and act as the host/dungeon master for all the other players. Sorry for rambling, but I do hope you give the game a second chance.
I hated the game. There is just too much noise in the game, meaning false information. They make every single character an information role in some way, and a ton of mechanisms to discredit the information you get which means there is almost no way to verify if you have anything right. This lent itself to people saying this is what i know, but I could be poisoned, or drunk or there could be a red herring, or the recluse or spy could be in the game. That's only the base game. It's honestly garbage for mechanics. The rules tell you if you are running the game to lie to your players in various ways to make the game last longer. Roles are super vague when they say "may" do a thing, which means it's completely up to the person running it.
Obviously, if you were playing with less people you would have your eyes closed for a shorter amount of time and have to keep up with less information. I think the people running the game should have split the group into two games to prevent cognitive overload.
We would have, if we had another copy of the game to play with. In fact, when we were planning events, we expected to have the published game already, since we were told last year it was going to be shipped by early spring. Unfortunately it's still theoretically somewhere in shipping. We as the players and organizers of the event still don't have copies. Everything we were playing with was either homemade or pre-production copies that were sent to very select individuals.
@@amberwedig7363 yeah, I’m a backer. I’m not sorry to be backing but I’m aware of the delays. No one expected a pandemic. I just think his very strong negative reaction is mostly due to group size. Especially since he opens my saying large groups drain him.
Board game cafes are great when you don't have enough space for a game, or you don't have the game you want to try out, and you don't want to or can't buy that certain game.
Yea I figured you would not like Blood on the Clocktower. Though Blood on the Clocktower has downtime it sounds more like who ever ran this created a complicated script to play with that player count. Also from the numerous games I have watched both online and live in person vids online downtime can be way longer but has an advantage. I have watched both Blood on the Clock tower channel and NRB playthroughs on their channel In person games players have limited time when awaken to make a choice of how to use their power. So to me it seems like your session was probably a story teller not moving things along with the script they had. Maybe they had to many townfolk that awakened in the night. How long does it take to tap one on the shoulder and flash the number two for an Empath. Or an imp to point to who they want dead. So not sure what went wrong there. Online games people often talk more with the story teller which draw things out. Now for me I played RPGs where a GM would take a few players off to the side for something and it would take hours while the rest of us sat there. When the GM would come back we play maybe an hour or so more then call it quits. One is left sitting their going umm well that was a waste of a session. To me Blood on the Clocktower is not like that. If you don't have a night role you still have a role that is still important. I would argue that the most important power a player has in Blood on the Clocktower has nothing to do with if they wake at night or in the deduction skills. As seasoned player said its more about taking control of the conversation and narrative and manipulating it so you can reveal or hide things. To me Blood on the Clocktower is game where a player has more control over things then your average board game because its a social game where yes people who are better at that excel. That doesn't mean a passive player can't play out their game and that it. You go in with a plan of how you wish to do things. I think sitting their thinkin this is a structured logic puzzle forgets that most of this game is about lies. Even the story tellers lie and shape the game towards evil one night or good the next. So while there is structure to this game there is a ton of player interaction and social manipulation. I think that is what makes this game is fun and when there is a lack of that along with some roleplaying yes this game I think would not be that entertaining. You might as well play werewolf. But I can tell just from your style this game was not for you. I love it because any player can take control of the conversation, dead or alive, and shape the outcome of this game. The poor player who figured everything out and has the correct answer doesn't always win unless they can socially make the argument.
i feel terribly sorry for You. If You never play this game again You will miss out on such an amazing experience. This is by far my favourite board game. Period. Hopefully You will be able to give it another chance. I doubt You will regret it
@@youvelookedbetter i hate social deduction and botct is the only game i will play that is sd because A i havent experienced allot of sd games but also B it has mechanics that other popular ones dont have where theres reason for sketchyness beyond being a demon or minion. i dont want to tell you who i am becasue i could be a damsel and you could be a minion. whereas werewolf is "youre exhibiting traits of a lier and/or an autistic person youre the baddy" and theres no logic beyond what peeople think is how to spot a liar which is usually how to spot someone with social anxeity or ND traits
I get everything you're saying, except for the conclusion. You played a game in a terrible environment for it, at way more people than recommended (apparently in part because of your own actions, too), with a script and roles that don't sound great for this setup of new players (travelers, many night roles), and your conclusion is that you will never play it again even in the best conditions possible. The two things about the game itself that you quote as reason (not having information in the open to puzzle through, and spending too much time with your eyes closed) were direct consequences of the environment and the player count. The logical conclusion should be transparent, at least if you like Avalon/ONUW and others in that family: change the environment and player count. I just don't get the adamantness based on one terrible experience. But hey, plenty of other games in the sea, it's no biggie.
Strange point you are making here.. 🤔 If you didn’t feel comfortable with all the other groups playing in the same room as you and that was your biggest issue of not liking the game, this would than be true for any other game too… 🤷🏽♂️ And then you’re saying you’re an introvert person playing with 13 strangers… sorry I don’t get it! EVERY GAME WOULD BE HORRIBLE FOR YOU THIS WAY 😅
Unfortunately the deck was stacked against you. You played with way too many people, with characters that shouldn't be used for new players, in a non-ideal environment. If you haven't, I would recommend the No Rolls Barred series playing it via discord/zoom for a better understanding of how the experience should have been. I may never actually play the game myself but I find videos of it being played very entertaining!
Never played a fun social deduction game at this player count. There really isn’t any game left at that player count, and barely any deduction. It’s just social chaos.
45 Minute setup time? Not very good by the game runner. Playing in a noisy chaotic room where talking is critical? Bad choice. 20 people, all newcomers? TERRIBLE choice by the ST. But if you never liked Werewolf, this isn't for you even in the ideal setting. You keep giving kudos to the moderator...but it's sounds like bad choices were made. I love the game, and wouldn't play in this set up.
I know this video is a year old at this point, and I'm not just going to join the bandwagon here. I just want to explain is that there are more introvert-friendly ways of enjoying the game. There are options on (free to access) Discord for communicating via text only, or to communicate using voices but no cameras. Most of the online STs I've played with have night phases down to a science. But in your own home, being able to reference the Wiki while playing, or using the online tool to codify the information you receive, makes the game much more tolerable. Unlike NRB, there are some videos of online play no-frills: @Blood On The Clocktower CT @patters, and even the official BOTC channel can illustrate a way to enjoy the game in a more calm, self-controlled atmosphere.
I dont like Social Deduction games, they have never held any appeal for me. I, for some reason, watched some BotCT video and was hooked. I have never played it in person, but it is truly fascinating. I have seen werewolf played in person and was bored of it in minutes and have never seen a game of it that looked fun (to me). Most others just failed on the same level. BotCT seems to have infinitely more depth. That said, I have no plans on actually playing it personally, but for the first time I can see the appeal of social deduction. From what I have seen, BotCT becomes FAR FAR better with knowledgeable players or an experienced group. I would certainly call that a weak point (one of the only ones). Also, "social" games would have a sticking point for "introverts". Also, I respect that you speak you mind, even against the consensus. Your mannerisms and tastes alight almost perfectly with my best friend, and I can often watch your videos to know if HE will enjoy a game I might be interested in.
"Im an introvert. I dont like loud noises. I dont like conventions and cafe's" procedes to play a large social game full of loud noises in a convention and then spends 30min complaining about how "bad" the game is but its ok because "this is not a review" Also most complex games take 45min to teach a group of people who have never played before. I've played games that took us over an hour to learn before playing and left thinking that was the best game I've ever played. Get a group of people together who never played before and a good storyteller will take the time no matter how long to make sure everyone knows how to play and take as much time the group needs to ask questions. Lastly he said he loves social deduction games except... (lists almost every social deduction game made)
Do people know a list of Board Games that for DM/GM’s? I’m looking for a “streamlined” rpg experience, where a number of mechanics are set but also there is a DM/GM who can tweak it as they go.
Well, I think if you don't enjoy Mafia or Werewolf style games not liking BOTC is kind of a No-brainer, but it also sounds like your first game was run terribly. 20 people is way WAY too many, and I'm not at all surprised that it was a drag. You'd be waiting for twice as many people to act each night, each action would take longer because they have twice the choices, and twice as many people need to die before the endgame. Compounded together? of course that's going to be awful.
So address the one complaint of substance about the game itself; no, you should not be spending 50% of your game with your eyes closed. If that it so, either something very complicated is going on or the game masters were letting people take too long making their decisions. However, there's a LOT of other factors you aren't considering here. First off, if you weren't having fun, then of course it's going to feel longer. Second of all, you're playing with 20 people. The night phase will increase in length with more people naturally because games resolve each role one-by-one and players have to consider more options per night phase. Furthermore, there is a guarantee that all repeating night phase effects will occur in 20 people, which means the time increase is not linear per player, it's quadratic. Another factor in 20 people is that the mental stack required to make decisions increases out of control with that many people, which further increases night phase time. Thirdly, the game is complicated enough that your night phase should be probably spent thinking about the events and your plan for the next day. If you aren't familiar with the game and don't have a good idea of the game flow, you probably didn't do that, so you spent the night phase idle. Night phase in BOTC is longer than in other social deduction games, but it's not usually *that* long, especially after 1st night. Most of the time, there aren't that many repeating night roles; for example, in Trouble Brewing, you usually have 4-ish repeating night roles at the beginning of the game (Demon, maybe a minion, maybe 2-ish info gathering roles), some of the roles of which involve no choices and thus resolve extremely quickly (like Undertaker). When the runner meant the game was for advanced players, they meant it was for advanced players *partially for this exact reason*. A new player jumping into a 20 player game does not just ruin the game for themselves, it can ruin it for everyone else because the night phase just takes too long if a newer player does not know the script and know the effects going on, and the chain of information becomes very tenuous with that many players. And since you were in a convention, it's unlikely that anyone would ever walk you through what you needed to consider during a private conversation (probably the only real way a new player could survive a 20 player game with a good experience).
I think most of your issues stemmed from the size of the group. Let's say it's a group of 20, that's 15 or so people that have rolls that need a setup that takes a lot of time, at least 10 people that wake up every night for 5-10 seconds that's 1-2 minutes per night. The game may work with a huge amounts of players, but only if they know what they're getting themselves into. The game is also not a game you can "solve" as one needs to contend with multiple angles of false information, be it player-made or storyteller-made. All in all, this game is best experienced in a group of 6-8/9 people. Also, it's best played in an isolated room where players can follow what's happening in the game. This is also a heavy social game, lots of talking, manipulating, and playful gaslighting. The time spent with eyes closed is heavily related to the player amount, so keep it small.
Wait, you played once in a bad setting. And you refuse to ever try it again? Its way too complex to just jump into the deep end with a ton of people. I will say, it likely is a good idea you dont play it again. But mostly because you have to invest into the best experience, to earn it. And some people just arent equipped or willing for that. I love the other games you referenced, they are much simpler and quicker. There are great aspects to that, but the deduction and depth to deception or discovery in those games will never reach that of Blood On The Clocktower. For anyone else reading comments, I would say... Play it for yourself, and force yourself to not just rage quit after one play. The reward for not having short patience or attention is HUGE, but you definitely have to care and put in effort with this game. Its an investment of fun, a brain challenging experience and hones your deception skills like no other.
Haha, I hear you Alex. When your playing a boardgame and it feels like you are in a Casino ... NO THANKS! LOL. Social deduction, todays 'climate', tons of strangers ... pass. I mean you had kind of stepped into the frying pan here in terms of having an enjoyable experience! Let me put it this way, you can play a semi-garbage game (Anastyr for example) but play it with close friends QuacknCo and boom, you have a lot of fun .... Appreciate ALL of your content Sir!
Your bad experience seems to have been a combination of bad circumstantial factors and bad judgment of the situation on your side. All of which is unrelated to the game. Heck, you don't even really talk about the game. Most is just a rant about the setting (which no one forced you into, btw). To then put the game in the title like that is neither fair nor validated. Downvote candidate. Not a channel I'll keep watching I think.
Probably should have pinned this yesterday....
This is NOT a review of Blood on the Clocktower. This is my experience playing it and the various factors. As a game that is often played in similar settings, at conventions, with larger groups, etc etc.
If you love this game, great. If you think this sounds like an experience you would avoid, then avoid it. Take what you want from this video but it's absolutely not a review.
It’s clear your title infers that it’s about blood on the clock tower to viewers.
Suggest you maybe change the title of your review to ‘your horrible realization you don’t like convention demo experiences of larger social deduction games’.
Also you say you’re down when you’re doing this video and has nothing to do with the game. Maybe you wait to review because the attitude leaks through on your review and your credibility as the reviewer. I hope all is well with you and yours.
You make it clear throughout the video that you have no interest in playing the game ever again. Multiple times in the video you state that you have issues with the games design. You just don't ever tell us what they are. The closest we get is at 16:30 when you talk about how long you have your eyes closed. It's unclear if that's a design flaw or just another issue with the location.
I agree that this isn't a review of the game. You don't review it in the content.
But you call out the game in the title. You condemn it as a game you'd never play again. You say you'll explain its flaws as a game. You structured this video as a game review.
While I appreciate knowing that this game can be an extremely negative experience at a con, I wouldn't have watched a 20 minute video on just that.
I'm looking for reasons why this game might not be worth trying because I haven't played it yet. Even your comment here makes it sound like I should find some of those reasons in this video. I didn't.
If that is so, the title is very misleading.
Lol, liar... You are lying and just trying to save face.. Rewatch your intro, because you literally say the exact opposite. This is click bait trash and a waste of everyones time. Your intro describes that the game is bad, but then describe everything but the game. Definitely won't watch any of your other videos if this is what you do... pathetic.
...then change the title lol. The title obviously implies it is a review, or at the very least that you have some legitimate criticisms of the game. But it isn't and doesn't; you barely even talk about the actual game at all, and your criticisms are almost exclusively about the venue and the fact that there were well over the recommended number of players.
This video is so frustratingly bad that you now have the honor of being the first channel I have ever blocked on TH-cam. Such an absolute waste of time. 😒
20 players playing for the first time on a convention? That is a terrible setting, I don't think any game could withstand a chaos test with double of recommended players.
Oof, I run it monthly and I’ve been getting anxious about the amount of people wanting to attend and having only 1 copy (for now). With several new players I prefer about 12 max, but prefer 9 with nearly all new players.
One of the reasons I don’t like this video review is that he obviously doesn’t like demos of larger deduction games. And makes it sound like 20 players is double the recommendation and it’s not. From the publisher, “A captivating social deduction game of murder, mystery, and demons. Each player has an ability and is never eliminated.5-20 players.”
I played it with 7 and with 18 or so people in convention settings. I’ve had some games that were better but I’ve always enjoyed it regardless of having experienced players or new.
@@JBearwa 12 is usually considered the sweet spot. It's playable to 20, but 12 is optimal.
At Comic Con NY there was a 19 person session and it was AMAZING!!! My session was 12 people and it was soooo fun, I’m addicted now.
I played it in near ideal conditions and still loathed it.
The takeaway if you don't wanna watch 18 minutes of rambling:
Don't sign up for a social deduction game with 20 people, half of whom you've never met before, in a crowded noisy room if you're an introvert - got it!
This review isn't about the game, it's mechanics, its amazing replayability or endless combinations and puzzle-solving experience - it's about everything else than the actual game -
but to say he never wants to try the actual game, with like 8-9 friends at home in a cozy environment is just stubbornness - like letting a bad party, where you puked on the floor lead you to saying, you'll never wanna party again.
I've been storyteller twice with 4 games under my belt, with 8, 9 and 10 people, in it's been an absolute blast! Most of the players knew each other, and most players praised the game to high heaven both times - you could feel the adrenaline and euphoria in people as they left both nights. Sure, it's not for everybody, and sure the game can become "too big for itself", but that is actually the Storyteller's fault, not the game's.
I haven't played this game yet and was looking for takes that might balance out the overwhelmingly positive reviews I've seen.
Instead I got twenty minutes of complaints about the location that had nothing to do with the actual game interspersed with promises that you had issues with the game itself. Finally at 16:30 you bring up an issue with the game design and it's just that you were left with your eyes closed for too long. No indication if that is typical for the game or if it's yet another product of the poor setting.
You start the video saying that you wouldn't even attempt this game again. That's a pretty strong condemnation and I expected there to be substance about the game itself.
It sounds like you had a truly terrible experience. I'm convinced I shouldn't try the game on a crowded convention floor. Other than that though, I don't feel like I learned anything about the actual game from this video.
Thanks for saving me the time of watching the video.
I think the "45 minutes to teach the game" and "spent half the game with my eyes closed instead of playing" were pretty strong strikes against the game.
@@helxis but night time is half the game. That's social deduction games for you.
@@helxis It shouldn't take 45 minutes to teach this game. At Uk expo, they explained and ran 8 player games in an hour.
Yeah same - I got suckered in by the clickbaity headline, and all I heard were complaints about the noisy setting, the person running the game (45 minutes to get started is ridiculous) and nothing in particular about the game. Pointless video.
Oh wow, I feel clickbaited into a video that is all about badly organiced social deduction games at conventions and nothing about the actual game "blood on the clocktower" itself.
Sorry that you had such a bad experience, but I had hoped for a bit more than the fact that it's not a good idea for an introvert to play a (way too big) social deduction game at a convention...
I love this game. I would say for a first game, it should be maybe 7 - 10 players with the trouble brewing script with no travellers
Yeah I'm bummed that Alex was given a traveller role instead of a regular Townsfolk character.
To be fair, this wasn't supposed to be a game for teaching new players. When we invited individuals, we asked which game people would like to play assuming that you would already know and be familiar with the games. It wasn't supposed to be about introducing new people to a new game. The game was advertised as only for experienced players and was supposed to be for paying players to have an experience playing a game they enjoyed with content creators from TH-cam.
Amber, first of all, I made it clear that this is not a complaint against anyone running the game. This was purely about my experience with it, what did and didn't work for me both situationally and the game itself. That said, speaking frankly....that's almost worse. What I just heard from you is that you're "selling me", without being concerned whether it's a fit for me? No one told me it was for experienced players and I made it clear it was my first game when I accepted.
While I didn't and still don't have any complaints against anyone, this makes it worse, not better.
@@BoardGameCo I'm confused how that was the takeaway from my comment. We failed to communicate that we wanted you to pick a game that you enjoyed already. That's on us. My point was that yes, this was a failure of us as the organizers to communicate that out prior to the event. So of course it was not an ideal situation for you. And I'm incredibly sorry about that.
@@amberwedig7363 Genuinely no resentment on my end.
@@BoardGameCo Sounds like u messed up by joining this “pro” game while being a noob. U didn’t know how to play. U didn’t know the players. U didn’t know the rules. U didn’t know the interactions. U didn’t know how to calculate player interactions.
@@BoardGameCoNo, it really doesn’t make it worse, it makes it a miscommunication. She’s already apologized . You can afford to show some grace here, especially since you have to bear some of the blame. You know conventions, and you put yourself in this situation, anyway. You also didn’t prepare at all. I find this entire video in bad taste. A better topic might have been optimizing your chance for a good experience with a new game. Or, how to avoid irreparably damaging your first impression of a game.
Damn we just got clickbaited into hearing why boardgame conventions suck for 20 minutes :v
Oh they're awesome, this part wasn't.
Sounds like he knew the environment wouldn't work for him going into it but did it anyway? Most of the problems weren't to do with the game mechanics either. Pretty sure if someone offered to teach me Brass Birmingham in a nightclub I might know that it would annoy me.
Yeah but controversy creates clicks.
Strange critique, the problems you seem to have are to do with the environment you played in, rather than the game itself.But maybe these games are not for you.
Absolutely, I made that clear.
@@BoardGameCo what you dont make clear though is how it logically follows that because of these external factors you will never play the game again. its odd because there are plenty of games that you gave second/third chances for the very same criticisms. You have failed to justify your conclusion. Hiding behind the "this isnt a review" doesnt absolve you of this.
Blood on the clocktower is amazing. I watched this to see why you didnt like it. And honestly at that many players, i dont think id like it. This is a game for around maybe 7 - 12ish players. That just seems super chaotic and no way to find out any actual information. Hats off to that story teller trying to play with that many people.
I play 15 with friends every month and you can get all the info you need and have a great time.
I played it with 18 or so and I really enjoyed it, also enjoyed playing it at 7-8 players.
Played 8 games at 4-5 conventions.
@@j.r.cilliangreen4083 it also depends on maturity and discipline. and also if people know each other. i could get 100 people i know are really well diciplined and play it with them. but 10 strangers who dont know eachothers ticks is wild. i can see a group that large at a convention being a slog. like if you had 10 pairs of people youd end up with every pair nominating eachother for a joke. where as 20 people who know eachother wouldnt need to get that out their system
6:03 The appeal of board game cafes: They're *not* noisy, the tables are large, you can utilize their board game collection, you can order food/drinks, it provides a good meeting place without "intruding" anyone's home. Not everyone has a large home with a large table for board games.
Also you could meet new people
the good ones will also play new games with you and teach you games. theyll also mother you through the complexities of a game like botct and help mplayers who might struggle
Took thirteen minutes until he finally said, "I don't like werewolf or mafia". If this was your opening line, could have saved us this whole video.
You're review (and yes thats what it is, a review of your experience) does not follow logic. The event was poorly organised, too noisy, too many people and it was not explain you needed to be a veteran, but you take it out on the game and not that awful experience? if I was playing 20 person monopoly in a warzone with the top rated monopoly players in the world I wouldn't take that out on the game. seriously, make it make sense, I want to know.
Lol of course it sucked. I love blood on the clocktower. It's an AWESOME logic puzzle, rivaling Avalon. Every single issue you mentioned would be rectified if you played in a room without other games running and played with 7-12 players. Also playing with friends/family would help.
First of all, there were way tooooo many players. It's not possible to follow the all the characters or the board state as a new player. Especially since 5 had to be travelers, which is a whole new role type that has its own rules (that aren't fun imo). You can't contribute your thoughts in a game with 20 players. Even as players die, they still participate and have 1 remaining vote (unlike Mafia) so I can imagine you had to be aggressive to get a word in.
Also the nights take FOREVER with 20 players! The storyteller needs to wake up so many players every night AND track an insanely complex board state. Btw that's also why setup took so long.
Definitely a hard pass with those playing conditions. You should try it again at 7 players - it should take in total not longer than an hour.
yap, 20 strangers is so bad. if you had 10 pairs of people come in theyd all want to nominate their friend and that takes ages.. its so hard to wrangle that many strangers who 8 of which seemed to have never played the game before. 1 or 2 fine the st can have some extra time with them to explain possibilities. but 8 new players in a 20 player presumably not the starter script aswell. just no
For anyone who is actually wondering how this game is played I highly recommend No Rolls Barred 's playthroughs. This infuriated me to listen to. I've never seen someone complain about keeping their eyes closed with such passion in a game that requires players to not know each other. This is like someone shitting on a painting because the line for the museum was too long, and the a/c was broken and their camera died before they could take a picture of it and makes a video saying that the painting itself was the worst thing he's ever seen in two years. Nothing at all about mechanics of the game, no actual criticism at all, and yet you'll never play it again, but it's not a review of the game.
Infuriating :)
You may be too emotionally attached to a game Yimmy.
@@BoardGameCo i may be, I’ve waited three years for this game and have seen it played properly enough times to spend the money on it. You had one experience and because you played a game with an unrealistic amount of people in the loudest most frustrating environment and you’re telling your audience that you will never play it again. People hear that and must think the game is like that everytime and it’s not and personally I think it’s silly that you even made this video. Play it under proper conditions two or three times THEN make a video saying it’s your worst experience ever.
i genuinly ran this game at uni so many times and told people before you play watch as many of the in person games and early games of NRB because it saves so much explaining time. honestly nrb deserve all the pandemonium institutes money for having the most comprehensive guides to the game. i wont lie, its hard to grasp at first. but once you understand it there are so many ways it can be adapted to specific needs. you dontt even need to close eyes, boxes and everyone turns around to a desk where they write their night time interactions. and you give blank slips to non nightitme players. or even text messages. you send the non active players at night texts to respond to about cheesecake or how purple zebras are so they all read and text stuff. it is also a hobby game. it is almost a lifestyle choice of a game. if id never played the game before and went to a convention where the entire cast of NRB wanted to play with me and my inexperienced friends and it included all the cast doing their usual shenanigans and bits i too would be overwhelmed as f*ck. especially if i didnt clarify with the ST that id never played before and had no experience of the game.
The sentence’I played a game in an environment I don’t enjoy and didn’t enjoy the experience’ could sum up the entire video
Exactly hahaha
its like playing connect 4 while sat in lava and blaming the counters for being to round
If this is the most popular negative account of the game, and it's so specifically focused on the bad situation you played the game in... I think that actually speaks a good deal towards how great this game is.
Could well be, this was definitely not meant to be a review of the game :)
@@BoardGameCo what was it meant to be then? it "wasnt a criticism of the game runners" and "isnt a review of the game" is it anything?
I’m never going to play Twilight Imperium ever again, it is the worst game I ever played, because we tried to play it in a Tokyo Train in the busy hour and they served Eel to eat and I hate eel. Worst game ever.
lol
Not here to defend BoTC, it's not for everyone, I get it.
I do find your review to be rather poor, though.
You spend half the time talking about yourself and you come right out of the gate saying you will never ever play this game again, and then proceeds to listing a series of factors outside the actual game that contributed to the poor experience, which could easily be fixed in a different setting. (Insane player count, extended wait time, noise, many strangers)
Isn't it rather obnoxious to refuse to ever touch something again, because external factors, which could easily be resolved, made it a poor experience? It's like saying you'll never attend another concert of a certain band because of rain and a power outage.
You tried something once, under the worst possible conditions, and now you're here, ready to share your review with the world
And yet it's not a review of the game. I make it incredibly clear which elements are from the game and what are unrelated.
@@BoardGameCo I know. You are painfully aware of the external factors that led to your poor experience, yet, still come to the conclusion that you will never play it again.
I guess it's a wrong on my part for thinking you are making reviews.
@@SgtKean Life's too short, you have to make choices and navigate your way through based on what your experience tells you you'll like or not. The choice is rarely "Play Blood on the Clocktower or sit in silence with my thoughts for 3 hours". It's always "do X, Y or Z" - I'm sure there are things you've never tried that you've just figured are "not for you" - ballet and opera are two common ones. Nothing wrong with that.
(And the point of making the video is that, next time Alex makes a video about a social deduction game, someone will ask the question "What do you think of Blood on the Clocktower?" regardless)
"I didn't knew how the game work beforehand", "I didn't like the environment we played", "I didn't knew anyone there", "The person running did a great job", "This isn't a critic on the game", and it end in "I'll never play this game ever again"?
This video is all over the place
Blood on the Clocktower is HANDS DOWN!!! The best social deduction game ever created. Over 100 roles and more will most likely be added. You need to give it another chance.
and countless community custom scripts and characters. and you dont even really need to buy the game to play it if you have a printer and some time as its all available online
I think most of your complaints stem from this being at a convention and the fact that you were 20 people. Way too much. Your feeling of having your eyes closed most of the time is also likely made worse by the fact that you were so many players.
That being said, if you don’t like the WW style of games, this might just not be for you. Hope you manage to get some sleep!
So not really a review of the game itself. Kinda like trying to eat a pizza while riding a bicycle in the rain and then saying “pizza was my most disappointing meal of the year”, ha.
Yes, but if a lot of people eat pizza while riding a bicycle in the rain...maybe it's worth telling people that it's not the best way to eat pizza
How is it not a review/opinion of the game if your takeaway is ‘i’ll never play this game again’? Doesnt make sense at all
Not a single person I've pulled into this game has disliked it. Your setting and mood were terrible and that's no reason to attack a wonderful game for it.
Six mins in and I know that you don't like talking to your friends, don't like playing games in public and that you don't like blood on the clock tower (still don't know why on this one). What I do know is that you like talking about yourself and for some reason think everyone else also wants to hear about you and your pet oeeves. Sorry dude but I'm off..
I'm sorry you played what is the worst possible experience for Clocktower. That is not a representation of what the game normally is, or should be. I personally think they (TPI) shouldn't have even suggested 20 players being possible in the design of it (the worst part is that any players beyond 15 are forced into being Travellers, which can be voted to die at any time in the day and most people are paranoid about leaving Travellers alive for more than a day or two). Having all the convention distractions on top of that has got to have been rough.
From what I've seen from people that run BotC at conventions, the target is 8 or 9 players. You played double that. I would never ever once run a 20 player game, period...let alone with new players. Anything beyond 12 is just chaos (I know from personally being in a 15 player game). Yes, like you mention expecting, there is an ideal player count and most people agree on 8-12. Even then, I'd try avoiding 12 players with new players. 7-10 is probably safe, but lower is better since it's less to learn and less info going around.
Night phases should definitely not be a majority of the time, even with 20 people. I don't know what the numbers usually are, but for 12 players, it's more like a couple minutes for night and about 10 minutes for day. Maybe the fact you're not engaged in gameplay (and already feeling like shutting down) exaggerates the feeling of time passing? Maybe the ST added in too many roles that act in the night or is going very slowly to ensure she's doing it right? It most certainly shouldn't be 50% of the game. Day is probably on average 4 or 5 times longer than night.
What's ironic is the description of what you like in social deduction is what I love most about BotC. There's a puzzle to solve, and usually the ST has set you up with a situation. It's up to the good players to work out that puzzle while the evil players try to throw wrenches in it with false info or be a distraction. It's not a shouting match with very limited info, like Werewolf/Mafia. You can find ways to test people, create chains of trust, narrow down your worldview, etc. but there's still room for evil to have a chance (e.g. Drunk/Poison status). It's very similar feeling to One Night series.
You don't have to remember everything, because you can choose to trust someone to share your info with and you can all work together to parse all the info. (Of course, having 20 players just about guarantees you won't be able to parse all that info. Too many voices. Too many distractions. Not enough time.) If you mean that having to listen to 19 other players' stories and info is overwhelming, I fully get that. It's why I'd never run it with that large of a group. I'd shut down as well. I practically did in the 15 player game I played.
I won't say I hope you try BotC again because I know the experience has scarred you and will shade how you feel about it in the future. I personally have a vendetta against Settlers of Catan because my first games of it were with people who played the game in very toxic and anti-social ways. I'm sure it's a good game, but I'll forever hate it and you'd be struggling to convince me to give it another shot. Like you say about BotC, there may be a world where I do give it a shot, but I likely won't.
*P.S.:* Sorry for the essay. I'm quite obsessed with Clocktower and honestly believe it's the best social deduction game out there. The only ones that can compare are ones with a niche like Deception, in my eyes. My only beef with it is the fact I can't get groups of 8-12 people to play, and that's on me and my situation.
This video should have lasted 3 minutes explaining the issue about being half the time doing nothing but being eyes closed.
The rest is not about the game, man
"One of the worst games ive ever played" then goes on a nonesense all overthrplace tangent about no actual real problrm with the game
This honestly sounds more like a criticism of the organizers of the event, and not necessarily BotC. If you look on the events page on Origins' website, it says previous experience is required to play. Sounds like they messed up big time by allowing a bunch of new players play in a 20-player game. I feel bad for anyone that paid $12 to play and end up with the same experience you had, especially when they could have played for free in any of the other games being run at smaller player counts.
When we invited the content creators, the idea was that we presented a list of games that we ran and asked if the creators wanted to play any of those specific games. Apparently, our failure was that it wasn't stressed enough for folks to pick a game that they enjoyed playing, not something that they had never seen before.
Your needs are wrong! LOL But really Blood on the Clocktower is a transformative game. Literally the only game that I can get more than 4 people together to play, and when we ask people jump to want to come over and play again. Play in a real setting, not a shoehorned hotel meeting room.
Dont agree with this one but hey not here to always think exact same thing :D understand what you are saying but i love it so much . Really made an evening out of it prepared rooms in the house with themes for people to cahoot and scheme they loved it .
Appreciate that we can disagree :)
I would really hope you do another video after you play it again with a different settings, perhaps with lesser ppl (9-10?) in a decent room setting as well as everyone came prepared (pre-study the scenario as well as the roles involved). I must be lucky I had one of the best game nights in a while. Disclaimer: social deduction game was not my favourite genre. Long story short, had a friend invited me over for Blood on the Clocktower and he made sure everyone pre-study the roles involved in the scenario (Trouble Brewing), I was skeptical as I saw the 3.05 weight on BGG (that’s heavier than Castle of burgundy and Concordia!), instantly I knew I have to spent a longer time to understand the game rules similarly to games like CoB but I didn’t think I spent too much time on this as I just need to study 21 roles. We were playing the same scenario twice in a row, with 9 ppl (+ story teller) in a house with separate rooms for private discussion, host put on thematic background music during night phase and due to smaller group we didn’t have our eyes closed that long, given everyone came pre studied the roles we can get the game started after like in 15mins? Some of us did ask questions for the more difficult roles like drunk and recluse but no biggies for me. All in all we had a blast and we were still talking about the game the next day, which is a good sign. For me not being too good at putting an ‘act’ on social deduction game like werewolf or Avalon where you HAVE to talk in front of everyone this game offer me to do well as I can talk with a smaller group in private which I can certainly play (act) better. I think I would play this again and I hope you would give the game another chance when you can play it with the right group, right time and place.
I think my biggest complaint with this video is that the title is misleading. I would recommend "Here's how NOT to play BotC" instead. Putting in the title that the game was "disappointing" does yourself a disservice because it makes the game seem inherently flawed and that's not even the point you're trying to get across.
But sure, there is definitely a "right way" and a "wrong way" to play it (like all social games) and I found this video valuable because it made me think of some of the "wrong ways" I should avoid when I host my own games.
But the title is just so infuriating because it makes the game look bad when in reality the blame should be pointed at this event's organizer(s).
Maybe the title is clickbait? Well, it certainly baited me.
All social deduction games are inherently flawed, because they're inherently pitting people against each other in real life, rather than placing them in the context of a game. There is always - ALWAYS - without fail, the person who is aggressive, the person who does nothing but lie, the person who tries to use external information against everyone. It is a horrible experience, not just when playing, but often even when *seeing* people play them.
So BOTC is my #1 game of all time - interestingly I actually don't like many other social deduction games like Avalon or wearwolf but BOTC holds a very special place in my heart.
Listening to your game experience I can almost guarantee the highest detriment on your enjoyment was trying to play your first game at so many players... There is a HUGE amount of leaning to do in BOTC and more than basically any other game I've played it rewards multiple plays and familiarity with the game mechanics... In smaller games you have to interact with far fewer characters and there is inherently a lot less going on. It's also a lot quicker and the night phase (where you close your eyes) is significantly shorter...
Now I'm not saying that BOTC is definitely for you - it's not a game for everyone and that's ok :) but just know the experience you had is really not typical of a normal introduction play and if you did give it a go again at a lower player count with people you know I would expect you to have a much much better time (even if ultimately deciding it wasn't a game for you!)
As an introvert myself, these sorts of gaming experiences definitely take a lot out you. I learned BOTC at a convention, but enjoyed it more when played in a quiet game night setting. The logic puzzle to unwind is fascinating. The one complaint I have about the game is the alpha gamer problem. This game rewards multiple plays, so it inevitably welcomes those who want to dominate the conversation, because that have it all "figured out."
This is when you included the Fables Buddhist role. "For the first 2 minutes of each day, veteran players may not talk."
@@midgesmoot1739 I think this is a brilliant rule as I’ve played it eight times in conventions and there were a couple times that we had alpha gamers. That would definitely have solved it!
The other one that might be important to include is the *Angel* because it will protect a new player from being stomped on by an experienced player without serious consequences. I used Angel when I introduced three new players in a 10 player game and it was enough for the experienced players to back off a bit and not just throw a Chef on the block for not wanting to share info or something similar.
Another option is *Revolutionary* pair an alpha gamer with a brand new player and ask them to try to not overwhelm the new player with the strategy. This one is only going to work if the player realizes they're alpha-gaming and self-correct to try and work with the newbie in a productive way. It does, however, make it so they can't just alpha game and point out the newbie as obvious evil or, on the flip side, frame the newbie good player as evil. They're forced to work with them.
I dont get this it sounds more like you had problems with external factors rather than the game itself, you acknowledge this and then your last complaint the one about the game itself
was it had a lot of downtime.... right, after saying that you made the game a 19-20player game?
so sounds to me like you had a shit experience because it was in the wrong setting, with too many people you didnt know, too many new players and with too many players in general. Since 3 of your gripes were to do with the player count you were playing with (and around for that matter) why would the game be at fault here?
Also just to add ofcourse it has logic, watch a NRB gameplay of it especially one with Carley and you can see her using logic to solve the game. It usually starts off with social reads all social deduction games do but each game of BoTC certainly has a solvable puzzle.
Also, just saying its not a review doesnt change anything you posted a video with opinions on a game that a number of people are calling you out that your criticisms seem to be directed towards the wrong thing... Ultimately it seems a shame to write off a game entirely just because you played it in the wrong setting with the wrong amount of people.
I think I would hate the experience you had. I think I would love this game under normal circumstances (7-12 people. In a curated environment. Etc.) But I really like RPG's and I think this game asks for something like an RPG experience which is something you have commented on disliking in the past.
Exactly. I do think that it felt Rpg adjacent
@@BoardGameCo I really think you're selling the deduction short. It should be way more based on information processing and talking it out than acting.
'No offence to anyone running the game, any of the players in the game, the organizers of the event, or the makers of the game itself, please, no offence...but this was the worst night of my life and it was the worst experience ever and I'll never play it again. But no offence...please.'
I really want to try this...
But man, it seems you guys made ALL the mistakes in that session...
20 people playing the game for the first time, many of whom don't know each other, in a Convention setting?!? Jesus, that must be hell!!
On BGG it says the game plays best with 8 to 12 people... they also recommend it with 6 and 7, and from 13 to 16 (I would say 15 because 16 has a lot of Not recommended votes!) and I'm pretty sure these recommendations aren't in the setting you were in, convention with loud noises and distractions.
Also, this looks to me like a more involved Social Deduction game than they usually are, so this adds up to the bad experience you had... you also talk about staying 50% of the time with your eyes closed waiting for things, probably an exaggeration on your part, like you said, but it's how it felt to you... I would say it's normal, you were playing with 20 people!! Lots of roles, lots of things to be done!
I'm pretty sure you managed to destroy what looks, to me, to be an excellent game with all those things :\ Sorry about that
Yep, entirely possible.
LOVE THIS GAME! Just played this over the weekend with 7 players and a rotating storyteller. Played this for about 7 hours straight and everyone had a great time and cant wait for the next session. just sounds like you had a bad experience and decided to give a bad review of the game without actually giving the game a chance. Seems like a very bias review and an overall bad take...
Even his "genuine" complaints are not typical. I regularly run this game in Sheffield, UK. The things you need to know can be introduced in at Max 10 minutes. Now if I'm having to set up the Grim I have another experienced ST/ Player do the intro talk which is only ever necessary if there's new players. So that 10 minutes approx is it for set up. Thats whether it's 5 or 20 players. The first night phase does often take longer but you slowly get shorter nights as night waking roles die. It never even approaches half the game even if you do the night phase really methodically. Usually a little less than 3 minutes down to about a minute later game so on average maybe a total of 10 minutes in an hour long Trouble Brewing. Day phases including Nomination period maybe 12-15 minutes per day again getting shorter as the game goes on.
Everything here screams that the experience has been heavily canted by personal biases and atrocious conditions. I'm not sure how someone took 45 minutes to do the set up.
My advice to this person. Is get people you know outnumbering those you don't. Play it in an atmosphere that is more conducive. Don't right it off. Give it another go.
I run this in a large game store for the Store as well as have Unofficially official games as well. We usually get a large ish side room to run it. I've built the group up so if necessary we can run 5 towns (mostly 2 at moment to manage group size but at this level of group development we plan for 3). The store is happy to accommodate. Bear in mind that usually the shop is full of wargamers on nights we play so those groups nearer that action do have to deal with some extra noise however we are still using areas slightly segregated.
I'm totally unsure also why he played at all given he has expressed dislike of large social games. I mean kudos he tried but it he doesn't like a majority of the things happening even without that then 🤷🏼♂️
As an ST I'm lucky I will admit. I don't have to think of numbers other than when to start another town and split optimally. I have several ST's with Grims who are happy to take up that role. I have a venue that caters (Nay even bends over backwards to accommodate us, Thank you Patriot Games Sheffield) for us.
Sorry if this is ranty but I just feel this is an unfair swipe. Listening to this felt more like watching someone punishing a kid for scalding themselves when proper precautions weren't taken in the first place!
At least try it in more optimal conditions, you may find out that that puzzle aspect so loved is actually there, because it is.
Anyway.
Yeah, a loud convention setting and an extremely high player count for game one is a recipe for disaster, for most people I'd think.
Right, let me stress you that I have not played the game at all, and sure I understand it is not a review but it is a "vowed I will not play this game again" vote and that is a very binary thing to say and I want to know about it. So with this information I am looking forward to the reasons why: The game itself is so bad one should never play it. And oh boy was I disappointed.
So I watched this ENTIRE video with that piece of information in mind. And what I found was, bad game setup, bad gaming environment and a dislike to "werewolves" to start with. Aaaaand basically , if you play with loads of players you are eyes shut for a long time and that was anoying.....
Full stop, no analyses of the player powers, how they work together or against each other. No analyses of interaction between players, just a: It felt bad to me and that's it.
If this is all that it takes to ward you off from a game. Not just stating it was a bad experience, but actively stating you will never play this game ever again due to it. Then please stop commenting on boardgames. Just stop. You are not helping people taking informed choices on the question: Is this game for me.
Thank you for nothing, I am not a single clue the wiser on this game. (exept that playing in a realy crowded and noisy area with an active dislike towards maffia like games, and way too many players will not play in its favour, but that's not a valid reason to not play a game)
Totally understand what you meant when you said a large group mutes you totally resonates with me. I’m in my element when in a small group of 3-4 friends. Once that group goes above 7, I’ll struggle to feel lively.
Playing in a crowded room is obviously not the game's fault. There is plenty of information to deduce in BotC compared to Werewolf. It sounds like you just played with too many people, especially the first time you're playing. You can also keep talking when your eyes are closed in BotC.
How can you judge a game that obviously wasn't played in the right circumstances? Would you play Caverna the first time with 7 players? Also, the teaching would obviously be 0 minutes if everyone had played before. That's a weird criticism.
And yet I made it very very clear which aspects were circumstances vs the game itself. This isn't a review. It's a conversation.
@@BoardGameCo You said you'd never play the game again, though. The game shouldn't be played the first time with 20 people or ever in a loud environment. Dice Tower Con has rooms dedicated to these types of games. Social Deduction is one of my favorite genres, and I think it's unfair to judge the amount of information to puzzle out in BotC compared to Werewolf. It's much more like Resistance or One Night. And like I said, the talking can continue at night in BotC, not that it should be near 50%, but it's also still playing the game.
Blood on the clocktower is the best social deduction Boardgame ever created.
its nothing new since i played town of salem
fells copy past for me
Sounds like a chaotic first play that emphasised issues that you seem predisposed to dislike due to your personality. Don't know if this setup justifies the clickbait title and overly negative monologue. Bit bizarre!
Which part of the the title is clickbait? Or overly negative. It sounds like you walked away understanding exactly what the situation is.
@@BoardGameCo Dude, you went for the clickbait plain and simple
@@BoardGameCo The entire thing. You're taking advantage of the hype of the game and putting that it's the worst experience you've had to get views. You then went on to complain about the environment that you played it in and not even the game itself. It's the definition of clickbait. Your title should have been "My worst convention experience ever."
It's sad hearing this as someone who thinks BotC is one of the best gaming experiences out there. I would say to try it again under better circumstances but maybe it's just not for you.
I played it at UKGE last week but luckily they were in a somewhat quieter corner of the expo.
Also numbers were kept to max 15.
In better circumstances you shouldn't be eyes shut more than 25% if the game. Plus you can still openly talk when asleep.
Thanks David. I won't say it will never happen, but I certainly think it's unlikely sadly.
It looks like you're wearing the perfect shirt for this video. It really puts your opinions in context.
Thanks for the content. I'd recommend an outline for your videos, the first ten minutes of this one was very repetitive.
Ugh, more clickbait from boardgaming's biggest con artist.
I have ran about 75 of these games and it sounds to me there was 3 issues. Two of the issues I feel like you need to suck it up which are the noise issue and playing with people you don't know. You volunteered to play this game in a loud setting and with how you were able to invite as many people as you liked. You should have expected there would be other players you wouldn't know. You know yourself better than anyone. You should have requested a private game or just not have played. The third issue was your story teller. I'm sorry she sounded like she had no idea what she was doing. You had your eyes closed for 50% of the game is insane. It should have been more like 5-10%. The first night is longest and will take some time but after that your nights should take 2-3 mins at most. It is insane to me that they allowed travelers in a game with so many new people. Your storyteller really needs to improve their game.
I'm confused. You're an introvert, but you invited a crap tonne of friends to play? 🤔
Introvert vs extrovert are often misundertood terms. Introvert doesn't mean you don't like people or lots of people in the slightest.
This is kinda a strange video as it sounds like a typical FUN social deduction game to me.
Sounds like they're just not your jam.
Most are. I like a lot of social deduction games. This one wasn't for me. At least based on the experience if nothing else.
@@BoardGameCo You should probably change the title of this video at least. It's quite misleading.
Possibly the least useful or interesting board gaming story I’ve listened so far this year.
Totally fair, but unlike Blood on the Clocktower, at least I only wasted 20 minutes of your time ;)
3:19 - he starts explaining
This is some real clickbait lol. "I hated playing this game for the first time at well over the recommended player count and in a terrible setting" isn't exactly a hot take.
In our group we had some amazing games with twenty players (five of them travellers). Yes, it is long and comlex, yes, you probably will die long before the end of the game. But you still can and should listen to everyone, talk to people, think what's going on (or how to distract the town from your demon XD). In big games a lot of fun interactions can happen.
I had a thought on board game cafes the other day. Some of my friends don’t want to play because their house is a mess. Although I advocate for keeping things tidy. I think it’s nice to have the option to meet someplace without the overhead of housework.
Lack of friends and a place to hopefully meet some, a lack of location to play at ones own house, messy house, a fun public atmosphere, potentially more people to get higher player counts, and so much more.
Yes. It's nice to have a hangout place that isn't anyone's home. Also not everyone has a big house with a big table for board games. Or they have a family that would get in the way of gaming. :D
plus having a chance to play boardgames no strings attached. i dont wanna spend money on a board game. he literally demonstrated that he benefitted from not having to buy botct in order to decide he hated it. imagine just having the grim cluttering your space
Sounds like you had all the worst elements together for this game. It isn't surprising that you didn't enjoy your experience.
Yep. That's where I am
Making a controversial thumbmail and title is your prerrogative as a content creator but let's not pretend this vid is anything else than clickbait by way of an apparent contrarian opinion of a popular game.
Featuring the game here was as useful as if I said "My worst gaming experience ever - AZUL: I played it naked while semisubmerged in a bog in winter, and someone shot me in the balls on my third turn. Kinda makes me sour about playing it again"
That's an absolutely reasonable takeaway....except for the fact that I put out nearly 2000 videos on the channel and I barely ever engage in clickbait...so if this is just clickbait then why here? Why now?
What actually happened, is I was looking forward to playing a very popular game and the experience was terrible...and so I made a video while trying to distinguish between the issues with the session vs the issues with the game.
Your azul comparison would be great...if that were a normal way to play Azul. Sadly the way I played Blood is a fairly typical experience for the game.
@BoardGameCo Your last comment about the dishonest comparison may be fair enough, but then you'd be at fault for mentioning the game at all. You could have made this video about playing in the right headspace, researching the game a bit in advance to know if it's gonna be for you, how more social games aren't always ideal for more introverted types, or how you don't have to expect to love whatever game vox populi deems great. All those topics are interesting for discussion, and not so common issues in the typical discourse for a boardgame channel. And you did cover them well! I just think featuring a specific game's box art and name was the wrong approach here.
I’ve run 50+ live games of BOTC. Unfortunately this experience does not sound very representative of the game.
Environmental issues aside, setup and first night should never take that long, even at a very high player count (which like any game compounds down time).
It’s night and day with a more curated experience.
Could well be. I tried to keep my feedback on the game itself limited to the closed eyes, and the rest I think was enviromental with the caveat that many people play this game in that enviroment.
First time watcher on your channel, saw the video and because I adore BotC I was curious to hear a differing opinion. And man as an introvert myself, that experience does sound truly horrendous. Just an avalanche of factors that pile up to the point that it could be the greatest game ever and it wouldn't have been a remotely enjoyable time. I am super sad to hear though that you are hard against ever playing the game again though, you described quite possibly the worst way, in every possible way, to play that game for the first time. I do not think you got a clear view of what the game can be at all, and I suppose you never will because of external experiences coloring everything so negatively.
Who has 10 friends that play board games
Well if the answer is even 1, then it's at least 10 ;)
This is hard to believe ^^
45 min before starting the game is far too long xD
10 min are enough time to explain it
And why would anyone play this in a noisy room?
It was being run at a convention
basically tbey fucked it. its being played in a noisy room cus they signed up for a money costing experience. and it took 45 mins cus they said ill take 8 people to this 12 player game
This video reminds me of Tom Vassel's review on Food Chain Magnate, which he had a horrible experience and absolutely hated the game.
It's funny you say that....when filming this, I was very much thinking the same thing.
Terrible review. Honestly, this 'review' is just utterly disappointing and tedious commentary on your experience with social games in a setting that was not designed with specifically your wants in mind. You speak not of the game but of your social experience with the players which in any other social game, would still present the same issues to you.
At least be honest with yourself. This video is a bad take in bad taste, as much as you've denied that in the comments.
I agree, it's a terrible review. Oh wait... It's not a review.
@@BoardGameCo If it's not a review then change the title. This stupid video keeps appearing in every BOTC search feed.
I played it in a board game pub in London first with about 10 and then about 20 near total strangers. Both were extremely fun but the second one with the big group was one of the most fun experiences I've had playing a game.
I feel unless you have a very specific gaming group, I would wager the best experience of BOTC has to be the No Rolls Barred playthroughs. The game seems very cool, but I've accepted that it's not likely I will ever experience it at that level.
Yep, I think I'm not the target audience
NRB has been playing a lot of it and they don’t do it in person, which is why I think it does so well. They did it in person once, but honestly the game works better using the town center website to play the game. They also always use Ben to do the story telling, this means no one is truly seeing how the game plays as a story teller, since none of them have the opportunity to just be that, yeah they have a “co-host” from their group so Ben has someone to talk to, but that isn’t the same as being the story teller. My wife was ready to buy the entire game, but we also don’t have a large enough play group for it unless we play online. Also if we do play the game we would need to play it almost exclusively as one of our weekly games to get any kind of value from the real physical copy. I honestly think BOTC is one of the most unique and interesting deduction games out there, but if you are a player who gets a role that doesn’t really do much, or you are new and drunk then you only get bad info and the game doesn’t feel good. Sure there will be a few people who think they had a good time and would want to do it again, but it’s ultimately a game that should be an app, or website, never played physically.
This is one of SU&SD's favourite ever games. That should have warned you!
Lol it does to a degree
Just take the name of the game out of the video if the problem was the setting around it more then the games fault.
I debated that....but since this is a game that is often played at conventions in settings like this...I thought it was reasonable to keep it included.
@@BoardGameCo i wasn't.
I think a lot of the problems were due to wrong player count and environment.
I think this game has some very special requirements:
1) Private setting, preferably somewhere comfortable (a home)
2) Group of 8-10 people, this would limit the downtime
3) The people know each other, or majority of each other
I bet if you did this with the people you know at the convention, in a private room, your experience would've been much better.
Sounds like a game that isn't really possible to play for the vast majority of people lol
@@seansmith2650 It's similar to Resistance's or One Night's requirements. I would take away having to know each other, but every social deduction game is better if you know people.
@@windbane69 Not really. They all run well with 5. Going from 5 people to 8 people is a big jump. Both in people required and space to host them. And if you're agreeing it should be a private setting, then you're probably going to know people. Generally we don't invite strangers to our homes!
@@deano2099 Oh, I assumed that setting requirement included a side room at conventions, like ones that DT has. Resistance and One Night work with 5, yes, but they are better with more.
@@seansmith2650 I played it in convention centers eight times with 7 up to about 18 people. Most of the convention settings that I played it at were in a quieter space then obviously this reviewer had. We also started faster than 45 minutes. Most of his review was about him not liking the scenario he was in or how he would not like to demo this game in a convention setting. Not about this game.
Almost everyone wouldn’t be demoing a game in a convention. So that’s not a good comparison.
The game itself runs very well. But you should know what you’re doing as in any game you are leading. I really enjoyed playing this game and has phenomenal potential for small to large groups up to 20. When I finally get my copy I am nervous about leading it. This video did make me realize to play in a more controlled setting than a convention floor room.
From the publisher “A captivating social deduction game of murder, mystery, and demons. Each player has an ability and is never eliminated.5-20 players.”
I've lost count of the number of games I've run of BOTC. Must be closing in on at least 100. From my experiences running I now limit the game to 8-12 players when I can, especially at cons. This is my favorite game of all time! High player count games can work in the right circumstances, but I never find it ideal. Most of my 12 player games last 75-90 minutes.
Also my teach lasts 15-20mins without interruptions.. I like to get the first night going and if anyone has questions about character powers I ask they pull me aside once we've begun.
I respect that this is your opinion and you are, of course, entitled to it. However, I think that by saying that you would never play BOTC again based off of your first and only experience undersells what the game actually has to offer. I will agree that a 19-20 Player game in your first game is probably FAR too ambitious (I personally feel that 12 players is the optimal player count.) However, the statement about spending 50% of the game with your eyes closed is dependent on your role, which we unfortunately don't have much context behind from this video. I can understand if you were a role that doesn't wake up at all, such as the Mayor or Recluse, that you might find that a little insufferable, especially during such a large game. But much of the joy behind the night phase is wondering whether or not the Demon will spare you so that you are able to use your ability, or being woken to use your Minion ability to mess with the Good team. I have played many games where, during the night phase, players will still talk and interact about non game-related things (hell, we even did a full rendition of Bohemian Rhapsody in one game), so there are still ways of being entertained during the night phase, although I appreciate the loud and congested setting for your game might have made that a little more difficult. All in all, I would say that you should at least give the game a second chance, but in a more comfortable environment with players that you know, or are prepared to get to know over time. I say this as an avid BOTC Fan and Content Creator. And yes, not every game will be perfect or as enjoyable as you hope it will be for a myriad of reasons that are often out of your control. And even if you don't want to "play" the game yourself, you can always learn the Storytelling aspect of the game and act as the host/dungeon master for all the other players. Sorry for rambling, but I do hope you give the game a second chance.
I hated the game. There is just too much noise in the game, meaning false information. They make every single character an information role in some way, and a ton of mechanisms to discredit the information you get which means there is almost no way to verify if you have anything right. This lent itself to people saying this is what i know, but I could be poisoned, or drunk or there could be a red herring, or the recluse or spy could be in the game. That's only the base game. It's honestly garbage for mechanics. The rules tell you if you are running the game to lie to your players in various ways to make the game last longer. Roles are super vague when they say "may" do a thing, which means it's completely up to the person running it.
Obviously, if you were playing with less people you would have your eyes closed for a shorter amount of time and have to keep up with less information. I think the people running the game should have split the group into two games to prevent cognitive overload.
We would have, if we had another copy of the game to play with. In fact, when we were planning events, we expected to have the published game already, since we were told last year it was going to be shipped by early spring. Unfortunately it's still theoretically somewhere in shipping. We as the players and organizers of the event still don't have copies. Everything we were playing with was either homemade or pre-production copies that were sent to very select individuals.
@@amberwedig7363 yeah, I’m a backer. I’m not sorry to be backing but I’m aware of the delays. No one expected a pandemic. I just think his very strong negative reaction is mostly due to group size. Especially since he opens my saying large groups drain him.
Board game cafes are great when you don't have enough space for a game, or you don't have the game you want to try out, and you don't want to or can't buy that certain game.
Agreed. Not everyone has a big home with a big table. It's nice to have a hangout place that isn't anyone's home.
Yep, I totally understand why they exist, just not as much for me.
Yea I figured you would not like Blood on the Clocktower. Though Blood on the Clocktower has downtime it sounds more like who ever ran this created a complicated script to play with that player count. Also from the numerous games I have watched both online and live in person vids online downtime can be way longer but has an advantage. I have watched both Blood on the Clock tower channel and NRB playthroughs on their channel In person games players have limited time when awaken to make a choice of how to use their power. So to me it seems like your session was probably a story teller not moving things along with the script they had. Maybe they had to many townfolk that awakened in the night. How long does it take to tap one on the shoulder and flash the number two for an Empath. Or an imp to point to who they want dead. So not sure what went wrong there. Online games people often talk more with the story teller which draw things out.
Now for me I played RPGs where a GM would take a few players off to the side for something and it would take hours while the rest of us sat there. When the GM would come back we play maybe an hour or so more then call it quits. One is left sitting their going umm well that was a waste of a session. To me Blood on the Clocktower is not like that. If you don't have a night role you still have a role that is still important. I would argue that the most important power a player has in Blood on the Clocktower has nothing to do with if they wake at night or in the deduction skills. As seasoned player said its more about taking control of the conversation and narrative and manipulating it so you can reveal or hide things. To me Blood on the Clocktower is game where a player has more control over things then your average board game because its a social game where yes people who are better at that excel. That doesn't mean a passive player can't play out their game and that it. You go in with a plan of how you wish to do things. I think sitting their thinkin this is a structured logic puzzle forgets that most of this game is about lies. Even the story tellers lie and shape the game towards evil one night or good the next. So while there is structure to this game there is a ton of player interaction and social manipulation. I think that is what makes this game is fun and when there is a lack of that along with some roleplaying yes this game I think would not be that entertaining. You might as well play werewolf. But I can tell just from your style this game was not for you. I love it because any player can take control of the conversation, dead or alive, and shape the outcome of this game. The poor player who figured everything out and has the correct answer doesn't always win unless they can socially make the argument.
i feel terribly sorry for You. If You never play this game again You will miss out on such an amazing experience. This is by far my favourite board game. Period. Hopefully You will be able to give it another chance. I doubt You will regret it
That's ok, there are a lot of great games out there. Not every game has to be a fit for every person.
Not everyone is into social deduction and that's OK.
@@youvelookedbetter i hate social deduction and botct is the only game i will play that is sd because A i havent experienced allot of sd games but also B it has mechanics that other popular ones dont have where theres reason for sketchyness beyond being a demon or minion. i dont want to tell you who i am becasue i could be a damsel and you could be a minion. whereas werewolf is "youre exhibiting traits of a lier and/or an autistic person youre the baddy" and theres no logic beyond what peeople think is how to spot a liar which is usually how to spot someone with social anxeity or ND traits
I get everything you're saying, except for the conclusion. You played a game in a terrible environment for it, at way more people than recommended (apparently in part because of your own actions, too), with a script and roles that don't sound great for this setup of new players (travelers, many night roles), and your conclusion is that you will never play it again even in the best conditions possible.
The two things about the game itself that you quote as reason (not having information in the open to puzzle through, and spending too much time with your eyes closed) were direct consequences of the environment and the player count. The logical conclusion should be transparent, at least if you like Avalon/ONUW and others in that family: change the environment and player count.
I just don't get the adamantness based on one terrible experience. But hey, plenty of other games in the sea, it's no biggie.
Strange point you are making here.. 🤔 If you didn’t feel comfortable with all the other groups playing in the same room as you and that was your biggest issue of not liking the game, this would than be true for any other game too… 🤷🏽♂️ And then you’re saying you’re an introvert person playing with 13 strangers… sorry I don’t get it! EVERY GAME WOULD BE HORRIBLE FOR YOU THIS WAY 😅
Unfortunately the deck was stacked against you. You played with way too many people, with characters that shouldn't be used for new players, in a non-ideal environment. If you haven't, I would recommend the No Rolls Barred series playing it via discord/zoom for a better understanding of how the experience should have been. I may never actually play the game myself but I find videos of it being played very entertaining!
Never played a fun social deduction game at this player count. There really isn’t any game left at that player count, and barely any deduction. It’s just social chaos.
Great video, note to self, do not play anything at a convention (If I ever go to one).
Lol I did enjoy other games.
45 Minute setup time? Not very good by the game runner. Playing in a noisy chaotic room where talking is critical? Bad choice. 20 people, all newcomers? TERRIBLE choice by the ST. But if you never liked Werewolf, this isn't for you even in the ideal setting. You keep giving kudos to the moderator...but it's sounds like bad choices were made. I love the game, and wouldn't play in this set up.
I know this video is a year old at this point, and I'm not just going to join the bandwagon here.
I just want to explain is that there are more introvert-friendly ways of enjoying the game. There are options on (free to access) Discord for communicating via text only, or to communicate using voices but no cameras. Most of the online STs I've played with have night phases down to a science. But in your own home, being able to reference the Wiki while playing, or using the online tool to codify the information you receive, makes the game much more tolerable.
Unlike NRB, there are some videos of online play no-frills: @Blood On The Clocktower CT @patters, and even the official BOTC channel can illustrate a way to enjoy the game in a more calm, self-controlled atmosphere.
I dont like Social Deduction games, they have never held any appeal for me. I, for some reason, watched some BotCT video and was hooked. I have never played it in person, but it is truly fascinating. I have seen werewolf played in person and was bored of it in minutes and have never seen a game of it that looked fun (to me). Most others just failed on the same level. BotCT seems to have infinitely more depth.
That said, I have no plans on actually playing it personally, but for the first time I can see the appeal of social deduction.
From what I have seen, BotCT becomes FAR FAR better with knowledgeable players or an experienced group. I would certainly call that a weak point (one of the only ones). Also, "social" games would have a sticking point for "introverts".
Also, I respect that you speak you mind, even against the consensus. Your mannerisms and tastes alight almost perfectly with my best friend, and I can often watch your videos to know if HE will enjoy a game I might be interested in.
"Im an introvert. I dont like loud noises. I dont like conventions and cafe's" procedes to play a large social game full of loud noises in a convention and then spends 30min complaining about how "bad" the game is but its ok because "this is not a review"
Also most complex games take 45min to teach a group of people who have never played before. I've played games that took us over an hour to learn before playing and left thinking that was the best game I've ever played. Get a group of people together who never played before and a good storyteller will take the time no matter how long to make sure everyone knows how to play and take as much time the group needs to ask questions.
Lastly he said he loves social deduction games except... (lists almost every social deduction game made)
Do people know a list of Board Games that for DM/GM’s?
I’m looking for a “streamlined” rpg experience, where a number of mechanics are set but also there is a DM/GM who can tweak it as they go.
What a terrible take. Extremely unprofessional to put out a video like this. I hope to see a quick follow up apologizing.
You will be disappointed then.
@@BoardGameCo I wish I could say I was, but unfortunately the writing was on the wall.
Well, I think if you don't enjoy Mafia or Werewolf style games not liking BOTC is kind of a No-brainer, but it also sounds like your first game was run terribly. 20 people is way WAY too many, and I'm not at all surprised that it was a drag. You'd be waiting for twice as many people to act each night, each action would take longer because they have twice the choices, and twice as many people need to die before the endgame. Compounded together? of course that's going to be awful.
I don't know why I keep trying to like socila deduction games. They are almost always a miserable time.
So address the one complaint of substance about the game itself; no, you should not be spending 50% of your game with your eyes closed. If that it so, either something very complicated is going on or the game masters were letting people take too long making their decisions.
However, there's a LOT of other factors you aren't considering here. First off, if you weren't having fun, then of course it's going to feel longer. Second of all, you're playing with 20 people. The night phase will increase in length with more people naturally because games resolve each role one-by-one and players have to consider more options per night phase. Furthermore, there is a guarantee that all repeating night phase effects will occur in 20 people, which means the time increase is not linear per player, it's quadratic. Another factor in 20 people is that the mental stack required to make decisions increases out of control with that many people, which further increases night phase time.
Thirdly, the game is complicated enough that your night phase should be probably spent thinking about the events and your plan for the next day. If you aren't familiar with the game and don't have a good idea of the game flow, you probably didn't do that, so you spent the night phase idle.
Night phase in BOTC is longer than in other social deduction games, but it's not usually *that* long, especially after 1st night. Most of the time, there aren't that many repeating night roles; for example, in Trouble Brewing, you usually have 4-ish repeating night roles at the beginning of the game (Demon, maybe a minion, maybe 2-ish info gathering roles), some of the roles of which involve no choices and thus resolve extremely quickly (like Undertaker).
When the runner meant the game was for advanced players, they meant it was for advanced players *partially for this exact reason*. A new player jumping into a 20 player game does not just ruin the game for themselves, it can ruin it for everyone else because the night phase just takes too long if a newer player does not know the script and know the effects going on, and the chain of information becomes very tenuous with that many players. And since you were in a convention, it's unlikely that anyone would ever walk you through what you needed to consider during a private conversation (probably the only real way a new player could survive a 20 player game with a good experience).
I think most of your issues stemmed from the size of the group.
Let's say it's a group of 20, that's 15 or so people that have rolls that need a setup that takes a lot of time, at least 10 people that wake up every night for 5-10 seconds that's 1-2 minutes per night.
The game may work with a huge amounts of players, but only if they know what they're getting themselves into.
The game is also not a game you can "solve" as one needs to contend with multiple angles of false information, be it player-made or storyteller-made.
All in all, this game is best experienced in a group of 6-8/9 people. Also, it's best played in an isolated room where players can follow what's happening in the game. This is also a heavy social game, lots of talking, manipulating, and playful gaslighting.
The time spent with eyes closed is heavily related to the player amount, so keep it small.
Wait, you played once in a bad setting. And you refuse to ever try it again?
Its way too complex to just jump into the deep end with a ton of people. I will say, it likely is a good idea you dont play it again. But mostly because you have to invest into the best experience, to earn it. And some people just arent equipped or willing for that.
I love the other games you referenced, they are much simpler and quicker. There are great aspects to that, but the deduction and depth to deception or discovery in those games will never reach that of Blood On The Clocktower.
For anyone else reading comments, I would say... Play it for yourself, and force yourself to not just rage quit after one play. The reward for not having short patience or attention is HUGE, but you definitely have to care and put in effort with this game. Its an investment of fun, a brain challenging experience and hones your deception skills like no other.
Haha, I hear you Alex. When your playing a boardgame and it feels like you are in a Casino ... NO THANKS! LOL. Social deduction, todays 'climate', tons of strangers ... pass. I mean you had kind of stepped into the frying pan here in terms of having an enjoyable experience! Let me put it this way, you can play a semi-garbage game (Anastyr for example) but play it with close friends QuacknCo and boom, you have a lot of fun .... Appreciate ALL of your content Sir!
Your bad experience seems to have been a combination of bad circumstantial factors and bad judgment of the situation on your side. All of which is unrelated to the game. Heck, you don't even really talk about the game. Most is just a rant about the setting (which no one forced you into, btw). To then put the game in the title like that is neither fair nor validated. Downvote candidate. Not a channel I'll keep watching I think.
Love this game, sorry you had a bad experience
Appreciate it :)
So drawn out
Sorry :)