I think Max has 1 advantage over every other driver. All he does is race constantly. Thats he's only interest even when the season is over he goes back to racing sim. That is a different dedication to driving. Doing a 24hr race on iracing in between Quali and Race on the F1 weekend is actually insane. Max is a hybrid of alot of drivers plus having both parents in motorsport has molded him into something we havent seen before. In terms of his ability you cant even really think of a weaknesses. Lewis is great too but i just think evolution over time, the next generation are going to get better and better. Answer this if you took the Max of today and put him against Rosberg , Button, Russell etc i dont think they beat him over a season and as i said before i think in 2021 if you switched Lewis and Max i think Max wins the championship in that merc before Abu Dhabi. Some of those races where Lewis struggled i think Max betters some of those results Imola, Baku, Monaco even Monza sprint Turkey.
Max racing constantly is a changing beast though I think. The quality of his teammate (or lack thereof) IU think masks the fluctuaitons between when he's raising the floor vs when he's raising the ceiling Agree with the second paragraph. Lewus' challenge (which he seems to have accepted) is dealig with the new whippersnappers - and its got much more to do with the quality of those drivers than any drop off in his own performance
@@tyredgp The reason i think Max always racing is a big thing is because he stays battle ready. Even when Red Bull are not on pace which is rare he is always still doing what he can. How many times can you say Max had a off weekend where he just never seemed on it. Even Lewis in his best years had races where he was just completely off it for a weekend. Yes checo isnt the best so we have no1 to compare him too, but in 2021 we saw what he can do Vs Lewis.
Max raised the entire bar. Every driver has to train harder and work harder. Anyone who beats Max on pure driving skill has reached the pinnacle of his career.
thats great perception.. after a rough start of the year. And Jos staying home for Canada (dunno if that was that important) it marked the end of an era and the start of a very consistent period that basically didnt end.
Max delivered but also his team: strategy, pit stops...just spot on. It seems like McLaren could do better strategy-wise but also pit stops-wise. They may have lost two seconds there, the two seconds Lando needed to close the gap to Max. But driving to Max is not same as passing Max. Max passed George in a very swift and clinical style where Lando took to long to pass George and thus lost time and tyres. I think Lando is going to have a great chance in Austria. Go F1!
Michael and max did/do both. Look what Michael did in dogshit Bennetons and Ferraris. Look what max did as a 17 year old in a Tauro Rosso and then in the Red Bull against the invincible Mercs. Both men also pull talent to their team and retain talent. They’re the two best drivers I’ve seen since my time watching the sport.
I get the implication that in this case “team” is limited to their side of the garage. I wonder how this would end up if “team” included the other side of the garage.
Max is in a totally seperate category. its called - "have wheels? Will race" Its even got nothing to do with F1. The man was just born to race. That's it. Most people need their whole life to figure out what their true purpose, their calling is. He's lucky he got that figured out early.
More tyred than ever...alright, let the wheels come of. EDIT(S): Raising the floor is sometimes also making sure everyone starts operating to the new base level. In essence when a new key player comes in and who's already there conforms to the new standard. Would you say a raising the floor driver might be best teamed up with a raising the ceiling driver? So one forces things go better and the other can hunt for titles? And of course if you have that in one driver...yeah, you can play the game differently.
Raising the floor is usually the teams part of the equation (make the car go faster, level up teams dynamics and do the right thing), whilst the driver tends to be more raising the ceiling (get everything or at least the most out of the available package). But there are some very rare driver exceptions that can help raise the floor as well. Max is most definitely the best at that, whilst Lewis to me never came across as someone involved with floors, let alone raising them. Btw it's not that Max necessarily raises the floor of the Red Bull car, but he raises the floor of the team he works with by never accepting anything less than utter perfection from himself, implicitly forcing his team/ side of the garage to go 100% in as well. You see this in who Red Bull hires, their pit stops (FAST!) and everything. The Red Bull garage of Max is the living embodiment of Mercedes: the best or nothing.
I think you've misunderstood the Development work that Lewis does vs George, The reason Toto is Looking for another Driver is George is not doing any Development work, George just Drives whatever is given to him vs Sir Lewis Giving Feedback for Car development
And how does giving feedback make him slower than George? Lewis is trying to make the car suit him better than George. So of course he’s giving feedback. George is doing exactly the same. Every driver does at this level.
@@f.kieranfinney457 tell us how not giving feedback will make the car suit him and eventually go faster? In my opinion George is actually threatened by Sr Lewis because despite him having an upper hand in quali and race trim, the advantage George have is so tiny looking at the age difference.
wasn't that being said about Lewis? That he's very good at driving every car he's given, but has virtually no clue on how to set a car up for different tracks and conditions? That being the reason he did so well when having a teammate knowing that shit and copying the set-up (Alonso, Button, Rosberg and Bottas) - and was prety shit when was team mate with Kovalainen and Russel?
I think every "ceiling raiser", but especially every generational driver must be a "floor raiser" too, by definition. If you are good enough to get that extra % out of the car, you are certainly also raising the floor. Schumi: before the ferrari got dominant, he surely raised the floor, dragging that actually pretty bad ferrari to a title decider against Villeneuve or the pre 94 Benetton to podiums and wins. Alonso dragged the pretty bad ferrari to title deciders as well, raising the floor, but also ended schumis reign of terror in his renault, again, raising the ceiling. Senna: dominated in mclaren, but also got wins in his lotus, raising both floor and ceiling. Hamilton: raising the ceiling, but also the floor, point in case last year, he should not have gotten 3rd in the championship . Verstappen: raising floor and ceiling since 2019. The other way round its different, the "floor raisers" are quality drivers who just lack the extra speed: Albon, Hulkenberg, sainz, in a way even Perez, who did very well in the Force India, until we found out how ordinary he looks beside max
How can anyone hate you guys. I mean you have literally become my F1 cousins whom I can have a friendly banter with. The only thing missing is some excellent food and a cold drink to go with that.
Interesting discussion. From the point of view of f1 I think I agree with the definition of raising the floor but I think that raising the ceiling is better defined as being able to lift the performance of the entire package from engineers to mechanics to strategists both in the short term (to produce unexpected/miraculous results) and long term (to level up the team/car). I think in this regard Lewis and Max are capable of raising the ceiling. I think they both can raise the floor but max more so.
I think its more of him having low motivations due to the team's poor form at the moment and also there are reports mentioning that Aston Martin have been using Alonso to test various correlations and set ups to get the understandings of their car while letting Stroll have the benefits with his car
The points you guys bring up for max being in his own category regarding this conversation can also be applied to Lewis as well🤔 so I’m a bit confused to why they aren’t both on their own category? Look at Lewis career and you can vividly see the similarities to the points you make for max doing both floor and ceiling raising. Rethink that and give me your verdict Agree or disagree?
I take your point but I think it’s a question of extent. Lewis’ back catalogue suggests the flow element of his driving isn’t as strong as the way he lifts the ceiling - that’s what defines him Of course I think he can drive a bad car, but with Max it seems to be much more consistent no matter the car. Even aside from the examples I’ve given Lewis had random off days when the car and him just didn’t click - Monaco 2021 is a good example
@@f.kieranfinney457 the conversation is overall I believe but obviously not now. Max wont have this level of success always. We’ll be having similar convos like we did for Vettel Schumacher Alonso Hamilton. You can’t win forever
@@tyredgp I mean I get that but you can find examples of max having off days as well. Early in his career as you mentioned he did not have that maturity and made mistakes. That’s having an off day. If he wasn’t clicked with his car he’d overcompensate and make some bad mistakes. That is considered having off days. Lewis may not do that during the later stages of his career but he definitely dragged some of those McLaren cars to wins and podiums just like max did some of those redbulls. So that’s why I say max isn’t exclusive to both floor and ceiling category because Lewis has demonstrated both as well just like max has. That’s all I’m saying. They both can do both max does floor better Lewis does ceiling better. I think they both even out tho. I can’t say one’s a better driver all time f1 history because one does better than the other. Ultimately you’d be saying max is better all time because he’s in his own category but I’m just saying that’s not true because Lewis has demonstrated both as well. Overall max may have better floor performance, Lewis may have better ceiling performance but both can do both and have demonstrated both.
All the GOAT contenders both raise the ceiling and floor. The real test in the long run driver is how much they can keep their performance in the rasing the ceiling zone. Let me also add to this : there is also the increasing level of professionalism and talent to account for across the sport. So the differentials in talent and raising ceiling/floor is harder due to the level of detail the performance of machine/human is maximised
100 percent agree with your second paragraph I think theres enough detail difference beween the really top guys to drop contenders into one group or another...predominantly
@@tyredgp The difference is the length of sustained performance. They can all do it for one race, maybe one season. But the ability to do it relentlessly for seasons, decades, is the mark of quality. That's a mental quality, not just talent. I'm sure Verstappen will rise to this, ubt let's take Vettel ( who gets criminally slept on) his form in a RB is very different from his form at Ferrari. We still have to see if Verstappen can maintain this relentless quality - considering he's basically been bred for F1 - it's something that should be baked in.
I agree that all goat contenders can do both. So I don’t think it’s one or the other. They raise the floor and ceiling. It’s proof at times throughout their career.
@@livefast-xc8lm Agree, depends where they are in their career. Last two years has been Hamilton bashing something out of the car, so it's more floor. The WDC years it as more ceiling.
@@Dir3ctH3X yup but you could also say during McLaren’s down years he’s had podiums and a win in a car that didn’t deserve it. Compared to his teammate. Floor aspect is evident. And ceiling is evident Merc years
This Man that’s putting on cap 🧢 is such an impostor and he lies 2 much. He ignored the facts Max never had a strong team mate and rating him among the greats are hypocritical. He’s just hunting for Max fanbase subscribe
Honestly? A significant portion of Formula media now believes Max Verstappen might be the most talented formula 1 driver ever. Eddie Jordan, who has managed both Senna and Schumacher, truly believes Max is better. Niki Lauda, after Brazil 2016 said Max was the most talented driver he had ever seen and talent of the century.....while working for Mercedes
@@Lanse1984 Gerhard berger, a close Friend of Senna, rates verstappen above Senna. Also Schumacher never had a strong team mate. So you're denying that he does not belong to the greats? So who according to you is? HAM? HAM lost out to some non-great teammates as well.
@Wmeester1971 I'm not sure what you believe I wrote.... my favorite driver all-time was Senna. I am in that age group that actually had the chance to watch him, and I never thought I would ever see a better driver, but Max Verstappen is better than Senna. Maybe not at every aspect of racing but Max has no weaknesses
I think Max has 1 advantage over every other driver. All he does is race constantly. Thats he's only interest even when the season is over he goes back to racing sim. That is a different dedication to driving. Doing a 24hr race on iracing in between Quali and Race on the F1 weekend is actually insane. Max is a hybrid of alot of drivers plus having both parents in motorsport has molded him into something we havent seen before. In terms of his ability you cant even really think of a weaknesses.
Lewis is great too but i just think evolution over time, the next generation are going to get better and better. Answer this if you took the Max of today and put him against Rosberg , Button, Russell etc i dont think they beat him over a season and as i said before i think in 2021 if you switched Lewis and Max i think Max wins the championship in that merc before Abu Dhabi. Some of those races where Lewis struggled i think Max betters some of those results Imola, Baku, Monaco even Monza sprint Turkey.
Max racing constantly is a changing beast though I think. The quality of his teammate (or lack thereof) IU think masks the fluctuaitons between when he's raising the floor vs when he's raising the ceiling
Agree with the second paragraph. Lewus' challenge (which he seems to have accepted) is dealig with the new whippersnappers - and its got much more to do with the quality of those drivers than any drop off in his own performance
@@tyredgp The reason i think Max always racing is a big thing is because he stays battle ready. Even when Red Bull are not on pace which is rare he is always still doing what he can. How many times can you say Max had a off weekend where he just never seemed on it. Even Lewis in his best years had races where he was just completely off it for a weekend. Yes checo isnt the best so we have no1 to compare him too, but in 2021 we saw what he can do Vs Lewis.
Legend!!! True f1 knowledge
Ability is indeed like no other. But he can get angry. Has been a while though since that last happened.
@@tyredgpI don't think Max cares who his teammate is. It does not matter as Max wants to win every race, lead every lap. It does not matter
Max raised the entire bar. Every driver has to train harder and work harder. Anyone who beats Max on pure driving skill has reached the pinnacle of his career.
lol I enjoyed this episode. You guys are jokes. Was laughing at the world peace segment😂
Max has been raising the floor since race 7 in 2018, not since 2023.
thats great perception.. after a rough start of the year. And Jos staying home for Canada (dunno if that was that important) it marked the end of an era and the start of a very consistent period that basically didnt end.
What about the rain race of Brazil 2016
Max delivered but also his team: strategy, pit stops...just spot on.
It seems like McLaren could do better strategy-wise but also pit stops-wise.
They may have lost two seconds there, the two seconds Lando needed to close the gap to Max.
But driving to Max is not same as passing Max.
Max passed George in a very swift and clinical style where Lando took to long to pass George and thus lost time and tyres.
I think Lando is going to have a great chance in Austria.
Go F1!
Michael and max did/do both. Look what Michael did in dogshit Bennetons and Ferraris. Look what max did as a 17 year old in a Tauro Rosso and then in the Red Bull against the invincible Mercs. Both men also pull talent to their team and retain talent. They’re the two best drivers I’ve seen since my time watching the sport.
I get the implication that in this case “team” is limited to their side of the garage. I wonder how this would end up if “team” included the other side of the garage.
Max is in a totally seperate category. its called - "have wheels? Will race"
Its even got nothing to do with F1. The man was just born to race. That's it. Most people need their whole life to figure out what their true purpose, their calling is. He's lucky he got that figured out early.
Well…
Nurture vs nature
When did you guys start watching F1? Like every race and session, etc…
a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng time Nate
You guys are known for argument and disagreement which makes this pod strange. Just argue about something pls
Lol
Reckon we might leave it to you lot on this one. Don’t worry we will continue to disagree shortly
@@tyredgp Can't wait
More tyred than ever...alright, let the wheels come of.
EDIT(S):
Raising the floor is sometimes also making sure everyone starts operating to the new base level. In essence when a new key player comes in and who's already there conforms to the new standard.
Would you say a raising the floor driver might be best teamed up with a raising the ceiling driver? So one forces things go better and the other can hunt for titles? And of course if you have that in one driver...yeah, you can play the game differently.
Raising the floor is usually the teams part of the equation (make the car go faster, level up teams dynamics and do the right thing), whilst the driver tends to be more raising the ceiling (get everything or at least the most out of the available package). But there are some very rare driver exceptions that can help raise the floor as well. Max is most definitely the best at that, whilst Lewis to me never came across as someone involved with floors, let alone raising them.
Btw it's not that Max necessarily raises the floor of the Red Bull car, but he raises the floor of the team he works with by never accepting anything less than utter perfection from himself, implicitly forcing his team/ side of the garage to go 100% in as well. You see this in who Red Bull hires, their pit stops (FAST!) and everything. The Red Bull garage of Max is the living embodiment of Mercedes: the best or nothing.
Max has blown off the roof.
Couldn't agree more with you guys.
Alonso = 7 podiums in first 13 races for 2023.
That’s the point right? A car that maybe shouldn’t have been up there but Alonso hustles a time out of it anyway
For lowering the floor, there can only be one candidate: Logan Sargeant
🤣
I think you've misunderstood the Development work that Lewis does vs George, The reason Toto is Looking for another Driver is George is not doing any Development work, George just Drives whatever is given to him vs Sir Lewis Giving Feedback for Car development
And how does giving feedback make him slower than George? Lewis is trying to make the car suit him better than George. So of course he’s giving feedback.
George is doing exactly the same. Every driver does at this level.
@@f.kieranfinney457 tell us how not giving feedback will make the car suit him and eventually go faster? In my opinion George is actually threatened by Sr Lewis because despite him having an upper hand in quali and race trim, the advantage George have is so tiny looking at the age difference.
wasn't that being said about Lewis? That he's very good at driving every car he's given, but has virtually no clue on how to set a car up for different tracks and conditions? That being the reason he did so well when having a teammate knowing that shit and copying the set-up (Alonso, Button, Rosberg and Bottas) - and was prety shit when was team mate with Kovalainen and Russel?
Great job guys. Enjoyed it. Please keep it up
Thanks Hukato!!
I love this podcast
Legend
I think every "ceiling raiser", but especially every generational driver must be a "floor raiser" too, by definition.
If you are good enough to get that extra % out of the car, you are certainly also raising the floor.
Schumi: before the ferrari got dominant, he surely raised the floor, dragging that actually pretty bad ferrari to a title decider against Villeneuve or the pre 94 Benetton to podiums and wins.
Alonso dragged the pretty bad ferrari to title deciders as well, raising the floor, but also ended schumis reign of terror in his renault, again, raising the ceiling.
Senna: dominated in mclaren, but also got wins in his lotus, raising both floor and ceiling.
Hamilton: raising the ceiling, but also the floor, point in case last year, he should not have gotten 3rd in the championship .
Verstappen: raising floor and ceiling since 2019.
The other way round its different, the "floor raisers" are quality drivers who just lack the extra speed: Albon, Hulkenberg, sainz, in a way even Perez, who did very well in the Force India, until we found out how ordinary he looks beside max
Fair point
Reckon it’s a question of extent though…
How can anyone hate you guys.
I mean you have literally become my F1 cousins whom I can have a friendly banter with. The only thing missing is some excellent food and a cold drink to go with that.
Mate, we absolutely feel the same way
Interesting discussion. From the point of view of f1 I think I agree with the definition of raising the floor but I think that raising the ceiling is better defined as being able to lift the performance of the entire package from engineers to mechanics to strategists both in the short term (to produce unexpected/miraculous results) and long term (to level up the team/car). I think in this regard Lewis and Max are capable of raising the ceiling. I think they both can raise the floor but max more so.
Love this
Fernando appears to be showing his age. When Stroll is beating you over and over, something is wrong.
I think its more of him having low motivations due to the team's poor form at the moment and also there are reports mentioning that Aston Martin have been using Alonso to test various correlations and set ups to get the understandings of their car while letting Stroll have the benefits with his car
Thank you guys !! Hit the like everyone !
Michael Schumacher was the prototype of racing the ceiling then
Yeh we might have got that the wrong way round !
Fair assessment, no objections from me on this one. Keep it coming.
Thanks CKR
The points you guys bring up for max being in his own category regarding this conversation can also be applied to Lewis as well🤔 so I’m a bit confused to why they aren’t both on their own category?
Look at Lewis career and you can vividly see the similarities to the points you make for max doing both floor and ceiling raising.
Rethink that and give me your verdict
Agree or disagree?
Not now though.
I take your point but I think it’s a question of extent. Lewis’ back catalogue suggests the flow element of his driving isn’t as strong as the way he lifts the ceiling - that’s what defines him
Of course I think he can drive a bad car, but with Max it seems to be much more consistent no matter the car. Even aside from the examples I’ve given Lewis had random off days when the car and him just didn’t click - Monaco 2021 is a good example
@@f.kieranfinney457 the conversation is overall I believe but obviously not now. Max wont have this level of success always. We’ll be having similar convos like we did for Vettel Schumacher Alonso Hamilton. You can’t win forever
@@tyredgp I mean I get that but you can find examples of max having off days as well. Early in his career as you mentioned he did not have that maturity and made mistakes. That’s having an off day. If he wasn’t clicked with his car he’d overcompensate and make some bad mistakes. That is considered having off days.
Lewis may not do that during the later stages of his career but he definitely dragged some of those McLaren cars to wins and podiums just like max did some of those redbulls.
So that’s why I say max isn’t exclusive to both floor and ceiling category because Lewis has demonstrated both as well just like max has. That’s all I’m saying. They both can do both max does floor better Lewis does ceiling better. I think they both even out tho. I can’t say one’s a better driver all time f1 history because one does better than the other. Ultimately you’d be saying max is better all time because he’s in his own category but I’m just saying that’s not true because Lewis has demonstrated both as well.
Overall max may have better floor performance, Lewis may have better ceiling performance but both can do both and have demonstrated both.
Very nice comparison guys 👍🏻
Thanks Nils
Googling what NBA means 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Nothing like a Brit insult an American sport 😂
Ammar
@@tyredgploved the Jordan years
All the GOAT contenders both raise the ceiling and floor. The real test in the long run driver is how much they can keep their performance in the rasing the ceiling zone.
Let me also add to this : there is also the increasing level of professionalism and talent to account for across the sport. So the differentials in talent and raising ceiling/floor is harder due to the level of detail the performance of machine/human is maximised
100 percent agree with your second paragraph
I think theres enough detail difference beween the really top guys to drop contenders into one group or another...predominantly
@@tyredgp The difference is the length of sustained performance. They can all do it for one race, maybe one season. But the ability to do it relentlessly for seasons, decades, is the mark of quality. That's a mental quality, not just talent.
I'm sure Verstappen will rise to this, ubt let's take Vettel ( who gets criminally slept on) his form in a RB is very different from his form at Ferrari. We still have to see if Verstappen can maintain this relentless quality - considering he's basically been bred for F1 - it's something that should be baked in.
I agree that all goat contenders can do both. So I don’t think it’s one or the other. They raise the floor and ceiling. It’s proof at times throughout their career.
@@livefast-xc8lm Agree, depends where they are in their career. Last two years has been Hamilton bashing something out of the car, so it's more floor. The WDC years it as more ceiling.
@@Dir3ctH3X yup but you could also say during McLaren’s down years he’s had podiums and a win in a car that didn’t deserve it. Compared to his teammate. Floor aspect is evident. And ceiling is evident Merc years
This Man that’s putting on cap 🧢 is such an impostor and he lies 2 much. He ignored the facts Max never had a strong team mate and rating him among the greats are hypocritical. He’s just hunting for Max fanbase subscribe
That's true crown tiger! Hit the subscribe friend, goes really well with the insult. 🙏🏻❤️
Ammar
Honestly? A significant portion of Formula media now believes Max Verstappen might be the most talented formula 1 driver ever.
Eddie Jordan, who has managed both Senna and Schumacher, truly believes Max is better.
Niki Lauda, after Brazil 2016 said Max was the most talented driver he had ever seen and talent of the century.....while working for Mercedes
@@Lanse1984 Gerhard berger, a close Friend of Senna, rates verstappen above Senna.
Also Schumacher never had a strong team mate. So you're denying that he does not belong to the greats?
So who according to you is? HAM? HAM lost out to some non-great teammates as well.
@Wmeester1971 I'm not sure what you believe I wrote.... my favorite driver all-time was Senna. I am in that age group that actually had the chance to watch him, and I never thought I would ever see a better driver, but Max Verstappen is better than Senna. Maybe not at every aspect of racing but Max has no weaknesses
@@Lanse1984 Sorry, I replied to the wrong message. I was trying to reply to @crowntiger8590.