Great Video, really good sleuthing of the problem. Fortunately on my MX so far I haven't had this problem (yet), but I was thinking also adding a little stiction to plunger bolt face might be a good thing. Possibly in the form of a polyurethane button or oring that protrudes 10 thou or so off the bolt face.
Thank you. If my bolt face starts to get dented too badly then I might add a hardened face to it. The piston puts out a lot of pressure, I think polyurethane would just get crushed under that small surface area.
Great idea. I'll be having a look at my 440 and see if I can do something similar. The problem I have is a bit different. the slight sideways movement you get as the piston moves causes my pneumatic cylinder to leak when it's operating. Swing it away from machine and there's no problem and replacing the seals - twice - hasn't helped. This could be just what I need.
on a scale of 1-10 how happy are you with the ATC for the 440? I heard from some that its finicky and unreliable and sometimes drops tools every 10-15 changes. Would like a feedback from a 440 owner before I order one, thanks
@@levinrio7685 I'm afraid my comments aren't very relevant as I built my own ATC, rather than buy Tormach's. The end result is very reliable and I rarely run any programs without using it. There's some useful info on it (and links in the description to more detailed specs) at th-cam.com/video/dK3I27DcQj8/w-d-xo.html
www.santacruzelectronics.com/forms/Query.cfm?do=detail&q_part=TR%2DTR1100XLBT3&q_StartRow=1 It's kind of hard to find without a direct link, pretty nice though.
Nice work! Another great vid , looks to me like the right side with the removable pin comes up first and then aligns it’s self, wondering if you shim up that side just a little it might not rock as much. Basically just a washer sitting in there.
I'll need to shim both sides up. That side without the spring will always top out first since it has no pressure holding it down. Taking out some of the travel might help it have less side to side movement though. I think I'll be doing that just for good measure. I just have to find the right size washers.
Hi Jason. Great vid as always. A question thats a bit off the topic but related to tormach. I am not a tormach owner but would love to fit a auto tool changer on my cnc conversion. How do they orientate the spindle. It looks like a normal AC spindle motor with a VFD. Or am I missing something. Does the tormach have a encoder on the spindle or a sensor of some sort to orientate. I can hear the high pitch of the VFD when orientated the spindle. Would love to know more.
You are correct. It's a VFD controlled motor that has an encoder just underneath all the pulleys on the spindle. Here's a video with a good look at it, th-cam.com/video/q4JHbKKr_60/w-d-xo.html same reason it's able to rigid tap. I don't exactly know how it works with the control but that's the hardware.
I’m buying bt30 tools and all that goes with it. What bt30 tools would you recommend to be a well rounded machinist. A video maybe. I don’t want to overspend buying unnecessary tools.
I've had that sometimes on mine as well. I suspect it's a not excellent fit in the taper as well as some thermal expansion. You could check with some transfer ink. I had the lower bearings go bad and the heat buildup caused them to get stuck completely. Does your spindle housing get hot? If it's relatively cool then don't worry to much, otherwise think about a new set of bearings or a spindle replacement.
@@vcedge9466 I'm not sure if it gets hot, I'll check tomorrow. ... But it shouldn't have bad bearings I assembled it end of December 2 months ago. It's probably had around 100 hours max time running. I'm still getting familiar with it but feel it has really ruff tool changes. The ATC gets pushed down on every tool change and randomly it pop really hard where it grabs the tool and pulls it into the spindle (but on the release). I've tried resetting the alignment a few times thinking I just didn't align it properly but now I'm looking around to see if maybe someone else has had this problem, because fixing the alignment doesn't seem to be really fixing anything? Lol... Idk 😁 Thanks for the reply, there's not very much information out yet.
a simpler way of fixing this is to stop the drawbar power module from moving at all, aka add a bolt/washer in place of the pin, and remove the spring from the other one, and torque BOTH to 10-20 ft/Lb's that will fix it, as there is no room to move, so once aligned square, it WILL stay square.
The draw bar is designed top move in order to contact the drive flange only when activated. I'm not sure what would happen if it were solid mounted, it would certainly put a lot of pressure on the bearings when not in motion and that's not a good thing. Makes me wonder how other machine draw bars work though, might be worth looking into.
Hard metal against hard metal will always wear. It may not be a big issue in this case, but I’ve found hard metal on one side and a bearing-grade plastic on the other resists wear very well, assuming the stress will not be too high on the plastic.
Yep, it's not the atc sensor this time. It checks out good on the status screen and also the error code mentions the spindle brake. It was a little cryptic at first but makes some sense now that I know what's happening.
ever check the tram and tilt on the machine, get it perfect and then load up the front of the enclosure with weight like all the tools on the front like you have ? Tell me what happens. ;)
That would be an interesting experiment. I haven't checked it since initial assembly. I'm sure it has settled a little if nothing else. Next chance I get I'm going to unload the table and check everything, maybe I'll see if that changes it.
They did say that it's not a common problem. I had to send them the computer logs to get an explanation of the error code. It wasn't exactly obvious that the spindle was moving as the drawbar piston extends since you are never looking at it from that side and the piston is all enclosed. I suppose most machines don't have enough movement to cause any problems.
Tormach has a video with some general power draw bar setup suggestions that might also help. th-cam.com/video/740jwzE51Rw/w-d-xo.html
Your attention to fine detail is impeccable. Very motivating. Thank you for your time documenting and sharing this with us.
You are very welcome! Thanks for watching!
Definitely gonna do this to my machine. Great thinking outside the box and can’t wait to own one of your knives
Watching that tool change after watching a Brother Speedio run is almost painful. 😂
Not as painful as a manual tool change
Awesome solution! Great thinking, Tormach should do something similar on new models.
Great Video, really good sleuthing of the problem. Fortunately on my MX so far I haven't had this problem (yet), but I was thinking also adding a little stiction to plunger bolt face might be a good thing. Possibly in the form of a polyurethane button or oring that protrudes 10 thou or so off the bolt face.
Thank you. If my bolt face starts to get dented too badly then I might add a hardened face to it. The piston puts out a lot of pressure, I think polyurethane would just get crushed under that small surface area.
Instead of polyurethane use DuPont "Delrin" it's strong, tough and wear resistant.
Thanks for your videos! Great work, great pace and explanations and super educational.
Glad to hear it! Thanks for the feedback.
Great idea. I'll be having a look at my 440 and see if I can do something similar. The problem I have is a bit different. the slight sideways movement you get as the piston moves causes my pneumatic cylinder to leak when it's operating. Swing it away from machine and there's no problem and replacing the seals - twice - hasn't helped. This could be just what I need.
I'll have to keep an eye on my seals too. Thanks.
on a scale of 1-10 how happy are you with the ATC for the 440? I heard from some that its finicky and unreliable and sometimes drops tools every 10-15 changes. Would like a feedback from a 440 owner before I order one, thanks
@@levinrio7685 I'm afraid my comments aren't very relevant as I built my own ATC, rather than buy Tormach's. The end result is very reliable and I rarely run any programs without using it. There's some useful info on it (and links in the description to more detailed specs) at th-cam.com/video/dK3I27DcQj8/w-d-xo.html
Love the videos, where did you get your tool holder rack mounted on your mill
www.santacruzelectronics.com/forms/Query.cfm?do=detail&q_part=TR%2DTR1100XLBT3&q_StartRow=1
It's kind of hard to find without a direct link, pretty nice though.
Nice work! Another great vid , looks to me like the right side with the removable pin comes up first and then aligns it’s self, wondering if you shim up that side just a little it might not rock as much. Basically just a washer sitting in there.
I'll need to shim both sides up. That side without the spring will always top out first since it has no pressure holding it down. Taking out some of the travel might help it have less side to side movement though. I think I'll be doing that just for good measure. I just have to find the right size washers.
@@vcedge9466 nice!
Hi Jason.
Great vid as always. A question thats a bit off the topic but related to tormach. I am not a tormach owner but would love to fit a auto tool changer on my cnc conversion. How do they orientate the spindle. It looks like a normal AC spindle motor with a VFD. Or am I missing something. Does the tormach have a encoder on the spindle or a sensor of some sort to orientate. I can hear the high pitch of the VFD when orientated the spindle. Would love to know more.
You are correct. It's a VFD controlled motor that has an encoder just underneath all the pulleys on the spindle. Here's a video with a good look at it, th-cam.com/video/q4JHbKKr_60/w-d-xo.html same reason it's able to rigid tap. I don't exactly know how it works with the control but that's the hardware.
I’m buying bt30 tools and all that goes with it. What bt30 tools would you recommend to be a well rounded machinist. A video maybe. I don’t want to overspend buying unnecessary tools.
Ill have to keep this in mind if mine starts to give me fits.
I have an 1100mx and every now and then it pops real hard during a tool change... Any ideas why this happens?
I've had that sometimes on mine as well. I suspect it's a not excellent fit in the taper as well as some thermal expansion. You could check with some transfer ink. I had the lower bearings go bad and the heat buildup caused them to get stuck completely. Does your spindle housing get hot? If it's relatively cool then don't worry to much, otherwise think about a new set of bearings or a spindle replacement.
@@vcedge9466 I'm not sure if it gets hot, I'll check tomorrow.
... But it shouldn't have bad bearings I assembled it end of December 2 months ago. It's probably had around 100 hours max time running.
I'm still getting familiar with it but feel it has really ruff tool changes. The ATC gets pushed down on every tool change and randomly it pop really hard where it grabs the tool and pulls it into the spindle (but on the release).
I've tried resetting the alignment a few times thinking I just didn't align it properly but now I'm looking around to see if maybe someone else has had this problem, because fixing the alignment doesn't seem to be really fixing anything? Lol... Idk 😁
Thanks for the reply, there's not very much information out yet.
Nice.
Appreciate the creativity.
Good diagnosis and repair/ modification!
I assume it's still working?
Thanks for sharing! :)
Thanks! It is indeed still working well.
@@vcedge9466 sweet!
I, too, love solving mysteries. I hope you continue sharing stuff!
Thank you! :)
Who makes that toolrack hanging off the machine?
Here's the link to the tool rack www.santacruzelectronics.com/forms/Query.cfm?do=detail&q_part=TR%2DTR1100XLBT3&q_StartRow=1
a simpler way of fixing this is to stop the drawbar power module from moving at all, aka add a bolt/washer in place of the pin, and remove the spring from the other one, and torque BOTH to 10-20 ft/Lb's that will fix it, as there is no room to move, so once aligned square, it WILL stay square.
The draw bar is designed top move in order to contact the drive flange only when activated. I'm not sure what would happen if it were solid mounted, it would certainly put a lot of pressure on the bearings when not in motion and that's not a good thing. Makes me wonder how other machine draw bars work though, might be worth looking into.
Hard metal against hard metal will always wear. It may not be a big issue in this case, but I’ve found hard metal on one side and a bearing-grade plastic on the other resists wear very well, assuming the stress will not be too high on the plastic.
It would be nice to do something like that but I think most plastics wouldn't hold up to the pressure.
Are you sure it's not an atc sensor issue?
Yep, it's not the atc sensor this time. It checks out good on the status screen and also the error code mentions the spindle brake. It was a little cryptic at first but makes some sense now that I know what's happening.
Back in business. Loved it! Say... what temperature and how long did you temper it for? Ciao, Marco.
Double temper at 600F 2 hours each time.
ever check the tram and tilt on the machine, get it perfect and then load up the front of the enclosure with weight like all the tools on the front like you have ? Tell me what happens. ;)
That would be an interesting experiment. I haven't checked it since initial assembly. I'm sure it has settled a little if nothing else. Next chance I get I'm going to unload the table and check everything, maybe I'll see if that changes it.
@@vcedge9466 it will startle you. I have the t shirt. Told tormach about it.
This parts in the lathe when you chuck it on this small rod.. i was nervous ahah
Yeah, so was I. Lol
I don't now why tormach didnt think about that btw, this is the logic solution
they probably did but then someone said people will buy it anyway
They did say that it's not a common problem. I had to send them the computer logs to get an explanation of the error code. It wasn't exactly obvious that the spindle was moving as the drawbar piston extends since you are never looking at it from that side and the piston is all enclosed. I suppose most machines don't have enough movement to cause any problems.
Awesome!
Hello sir please CNC VMC HMC ALL MAINTENANCE BREADAWAN VIDEO CREAT
Nice video