I always find these videos unique and interesting, I think one where there is no movement speed cap would also be interesting if it’s even possible to do.
The way you present your videos (ie title, your voice and the structure of the overall video) has shitpost energy but you actually get to know a bit more of this spaghetti code of a game that is my thoughts
The wrangler itself is a threat. increased fire speed and defense PLUS AUTO AIM. Even the downside of the sentry getting disabled can be used to tank ubers. Ridiculous!
A “Sniper ahead!” voice command would also be appreciated, similar to the one for Spy. I believe Overwatch characters automatically call out when a sniper is nearby, which I thought was a helpful mechanic.
It always puzzled me how there's a sentry ahead voiceline but not a sniper ahead one. I'd be much more worried about a class that can instantly down me with one bad mistake (like spy, who has a voiceline too!) than a stationary heavy that beeps every second
I think it might be interesting if the Sydney Sleeper SPECIFICALLY did not have the laser, allowing snipers using it to actively support their team while being harder to find
The issue is Valve also made the Sydney Sleeper a bodyshot machine. So my fix to this is to keep the laser, or nerf the bodyshot capabilities of the rifle to do 90-100 damage max to either the head or body and in return the sniper becomes less visible and more support oriented.
@@heart4011Up to 135 with a fully charged mini-crit headshot seems fair enough. If you catch a really out of position engi, a slow scout, or just an oblivious sniper, you deserve the kill imo. Especially with the scout. That’s not easy to hit.
maybe we can change the strength of the beam depending on the charge of the rifle and scoping status. The beam only appears when scoped in. When there is no charge, the beam will be weak but still visible to vigilant players. When the sniper is fully charged, the beam will become very obvious. Such change will also balance unfair guns like Bazzar Bargain since the beam will become very obvious very quickly.
I very much like this proposal. One problem I had with the original model was it always being visible, but showing the charge strength would also give away how unsafe it would be to cross.
I can't tell you enough how much this looks like those levels in Half Life 2 where you dodge combine snipers. Technically, Valve themselves have already engaged in this solution!
This is what the Splatoon games do with the charger class, and it goes a long way towards balancing them. Chargers have the most range and can one-shot - allowing them to control a huge amount of space - in a game all about controlling space. However, the laser makes it more obvious where they’re aiming and where their maximum range is, making them much easier to counter. Despite this, a good charger player can still be very effective, because they can hide the laser behind a wall and then flick onto their target.
The fact that chargers have a maximum range at all is a large factor as well. Splatoon maps are all super wide open with enormous sightlines but charger isn't a problem because it's not good enough to find a spot to stand where they can see enemy heads, they have to find a spot to stand that's close enough to the enemy for them to reach. Which, in turn gets them close enough to be seen by the enemy, which introduces counterplay. I also really like the balancing of each charger with its own effective range, charge time, damage, etc.
here's a suggestion: remove the beam's visibility completely when the sniper isn't scoped in or has zero percent charge while scoped in, and gradually decrease the opacity of the beam, making it more clear to see, as the charge increases
this would be a good change if they also added a one second delay before headshots would count, or added a ramp up period for headshots while scoped to nerf quickscopes
I believe that even with a sort of "dusty hazy appearance" of a red line could make the experience a lot more fun while not completely giving away the sniper (essentially you would need to actually be aware of what the laser would look like before being able to spot it)
Have it stronger where it originates and fade over distance like a real laser pointer. Still let’s you see where it’s coming from and assess accordingly, but doesn’t let you literally dodge bullets or get a perfect flank.
This is a really interesting mechanic that could be explored more to address the sniper issue. Maybe the beam should only appear when scoped like others said or only be visible when the sniper fires like the machina, then give the machina the permanent beam (which would probably look really cool with the reskin)
I think they should be visible if the sniper rifle is equipped, not if he's scoped Most snipers have by now learned how to quickscope the player's head
Your idea does absolutely nothing. The problem is not a case of knowing where the sniper is. The problem is he can't be engaged. You can know where a sniper is and still not be able to do anything about it. Quickscope exists you know. A sniper could stand in the house not scoped at swiftwater first and quickscope whatever leaves spawn in complete safety. Your idea does nothing to adress this. With the constant beams you can take the door he's not looking at and get at least some chance to dodge him.
@@Hedning1390 it's like I mentioned, it'd be best to exclusively appear when the rifle is on the sniper's hand, because if they wanna quickscope under those circumstances they'll usually have a significantly less quick scope pulling out the rifle, waiting for the animation and shooting
In general, Sniper needs to be more visible. I saw a suggestion to give him a clip and an exceptionally loud reload, I've been thinking "what if every rifle had a Classic-style Tracer", but this is also a good solution.
Typically with sniper, the problem is the "good" snipers that can quick scope on demand. "Bad" snipers can be annoying but they aren't overly crazy. The laser I think will be to punishing for bad players so maybe some changes like the laser only appears while they scope, and hangs for a few seconds after they unscope. The most interesting factor though for me is that it is a new variable to balance the game. Both the class itself and and a new stat you can balance individual weapons.
I really like the idea of the laser sight when scoped for another reason: this actually gives a new play for Wrangler Engies. If they have similar lasers, then an Engie can pretend to be a Sniper and intimidate enemies, even if just for a short period of time.
Yes, and this highlights how OP sniper is currently. A level 3 sentry should be king of area denial, but just the possibility of a sniper is a better area denial than your level 3 sentry.
@@Hedning1390 The thing is that a level three sentry can't instantly kill you if you peek, whereas a Sniper can instantly kill you if you appear in their line of sight for even a millisecond. It isn't even necessarily skill, as I have bad aim but have also gotten very silly lucky shots/predicts while sniping.
@@guiltriple It's virtually all skill. Sure you are gonna hit some dumb shot every once in a while because of luck, but that's the same for literally every class. Sniper instantly killing isn't the issue, removing his ability to instantly kill would literally make the class unplayable.
Interesting. People always say "respect the sightline," but this definitely makes it clear when you need to respect it. I assume this laser indicator was taken from the MVM robots? Did Sniper v Sniper duels become more enjoyable? Did this change affect the effectiveness of heavies or medics significantly? People often cite overhealed heavies as one of the main reasons why Sniper is healthy for the game. Did people start running the Machina/Heatmaker/Huntsman more? The laser tracers inherent to the previous two weapons becomes less of a nerf when all the other rifles have a giant laser, while the Huntsman presumably didn't have any laser at all? (Edit: Frpm the video it looks like the giant laser shows up even while unscoped? Which is kinda odd.) Were the viability of any sniper secondaries/melees affected? I assume the Cozy Camper would have been most impacted, but... Were there situations where big sightlines made the laser not inhibit hardscoping at all? Were there any major complaints after this change?
Yeah people always love to say "Just avoid the sightlines" which ends up being 80% of the map and the people who say this are often sniper mains themselves
As a game dev who really likes playing sniper but knew it would be frustrating to play against, this video might just be the solution i was looking for. Good ideas, and I hope to see more!
What's funny is that I think this is already an active feature, but it's specific to Sniper and Sydney Sleeper Robots in Mann vs Machine. It's not quite as visible, but they do have a blue Laser Sight that stretches from their eyes which is quite fitting considering they are robots with very bright eyes.
Shounic might be the only one to convince me that sniper isn't broken with his knowledge in game mechanics but nope even he agrees that sniper is broken
This game lacks content and updates. A lot of weapons need toning down. There’s toooooo many direct upgrades in this game. But sniper? Man the dude needs a rework as much as heavy. Gameplay is boring, and the frustration snipers causes is too much. (Not to mention the bot crisis)
I think the beam being implemented this "crudely" would alienate the class by a lot. Perhaps it should only show up when sniper is aiming down the scope, and as he charges the shot, the beam becomes more and more opaque. It would at least force snipers not to stare into some location as they would unscope and move often to keep their beam as low-profile as possible. Also, snipers can still hide their beam by aiming into a nearby wall, and when a player pops out, they can flick shot them. Whenever or not this should be rewarding to sniper, I dunno.
The issue with shounic's laser is that its a sourcemod plugin - a hackjob basically. Valve implementing this would be able to perfectly transfer the MvM laser onto the Sniper Rifle in PvP.
@@kerbonaut2059 I mean, yeah. If valve themselves made this, it'd probably be better looking and feeling, but this kind of put-together experiment seems rather necessary to get the idea across
I think maybe the closer the laser gets to you, the more visible it should be. Like it fades in based on distance/closeness. Mostly because seeing all those lasers flying all over the place I feel kind of makes the visuals of the game a bit messy and too hectic, even for tf2 standards.
This is how it’s done in Splatoon and I think it’s a great improvement, although it’s pretty easy to avoid showing the sight line by flicking. Splatoon also adds a limit to how far you can snipe.
TF2 also has a range beyond which the bullets from the rifle lose all kinetic energy and don't hurt anything actually, it's just so ridiculously long that in practice it may as well be infinite
This feature already exists in tf2, with a visible beam when the sniper scopes in, but this only applies to the robot snipers in mvm, when they scope in they get a wrangler style beam so you can tell where they are looking at.
The issue with shounic's laser is that its a sourcemod plugin - a hackjob basically. Valve implementing this would be able to perfectly transfer the MvM laser onto the Sniper Rifle in PvP.
"The beam was enough to make playing against a sniper not frustrating" This is effectivelly killing the whole purpose of snipers in first place, lmao, but on the other hand - you can simply keep your eyes anywhere else where the beam is hidden, and only going for a strike when the target is in the proximity, something of a quickscoping but with a twist.
I think the beam should only be on while scoped, or maybe even charged, just so it indicates "Hey! This here way is definitive death!" instead of showing location of sniper even if he isn't ready to at least try defending himself
@@dclc but that would mean the sniper relies heavily on his ability to quickscope the moment he sees a target enter his sightline, and that is hoping that target does not have hp above 150
My worry with this alteration is that it actively encourages quickscoping, makes it much harder for new players to learn how to aim, and drastically devalues good positioning and gamesense, which is what Snipers were originally supposed to use before quickscoping became a thing.
Pretty much this. Knowing where the sniper is aiming at is cool and all but when was the last time you saw a pub-stomping sniper hardscope? Unless the laser is also active when he's not scoped in, but then again they can just hide it like they hide the dot while scoping. The main problem is the damage; the fact that any decent sniper can essentially random crit on demand before you're even in fighting distance.
That's why I prefer scope-glint over this beam idea. Snipers are supposed to be the patient wait for the right moment type class. I agree with shounic and many players that Snipers are just too hard to really see coming, and I think a scope glint would be a really nice compromise because Snipers wouldn't be able to shoot you by hiding in plain sight but they could still hold angles.
Being able to lock down an entry is incredibly powerful. now in pubs a sniper can hold down a choke, and because they have their reticle hidden (or not and the players didnt notice) they'll just be drip fed kills over time. If the threat was more visible, players would actively avoid that path, meaning that now sniper can more effectively funnel down players into other paths This is what already happens in high level of competitive play, but only because players are all on voice chat immediately calling out where the sniper is
Seeing this implemented in a way that would only have the beam active while the sniper is scoped in would most certainly make playing against sniper more enjoyable while also not making sniper to easy to counter.
Splatoon already fixed this back in 2015. The sniper rifle weapons in that game do exactly this: create a big bright beam visible to other players when you are charging up / scoped. It works pretty well. ....on top of putting range limits on sniper rifles. They have long range, but you can't just shoot all the way across the map like TF2 Sniper can. Of course, this is mostly due to the Ink mechanics of Splatoon, as being able to shoot a line of ink all the way across the map would be hilariously broken.
Splatoon also makes this mechanic more engaging by having you use the environment to hide your sight line until you're ready to flick or until you notice a distracted opponent.
Maybe the laser should only come when they scope in? And make it longer for a sniper to actually scope in so if he’s camping somewhere hidden and then pull up his scope you have time to see it and react
maybe only when he's got his sniper rifle out, unscoped or not. 50 damage is still considerable and he can still *see* you and immediately react when unscoped by quickscoping
There was a game called “Ace of Spades”, which was like a “tf 2 + minecraft” game. The Sniper class was with laser sights, but only when he scoped in. It was a powerful class, but you could deal with him, because you could see where he is looking and build defences or (if you were a miner class) tunnel to him
It would help a lot having a consistent way of knowing where Sniper is aiming, since most of the time you're just really guessing where the dot is coming from and what part of the map he is, but the flat 150 damage with an almost zero time to react (unlike the rest of the classes) is still a headache.
> but the flat 150 damage with an almost zero time to react Ah yes, Because I can react to the Scout about to do 102 meatshot like I got spare time to dodge it. You don't react to Sniper, You avoid the sightline. Now quit watching Zesty Jesus before your brain rots from his horrible takes.
@@annon4645 You can't react to the spy backstabbing you for an instant kill either, but no one complains about that. The difference with scout is that you can see him coming most of the time and he also has to get up close and personal and actually work for his damage, unlike sniper who can sit in one spot across the map and do more damage simply by clicking on your head.
honestly as a splatoon player, this change makes sense. Chargers do this in Splatoon and it gives a level of footsies between charger mains and everyone else, and slightly raises the skill ceiling by making flickshots and hiding your laser strangely viable tricks, though the latter is only really viable because you're playing a sniper with a laser sight in a 3rd person shooter, and is less effective with splatterscopes (which zoom into a first person view at full charge similiar to snipers in TF2)
yeah, the charger hate is still real but much less so and has lots of counterplay. being able to avoid being seen by squidding through sightlines probably helps a ton too but even then chargers can learn to see the faint trails in ink, which encourages even more depth and skill. also the tf2 and splatoon overlap is surprisingly strong i love that
I play Splatoon but never have played TF2, so I just assumed Sniper also had a line like Splatoon chargers do. When I found out that he doesn’t (which was just now), I was shooketh.
@@TrouserSnivy Those first two points you mentioned were completely subjective and out of place lol, especially in a discussion about hypothetical game balance.
@@EonTheAien alright, I gave a mostly subjective and unhelpful response because I'm a bitter ass and after ten years of playing the game just to see the community still has awful opinions, sometimes I express that bitterness outwardly. If you want me to make it more objective, Splatoon plays vastly differently and therefore we should not say a change is good just because another game uses that sort of function. Just as one singular example for this, Splatoon does not have matches that hinge almost entirely on the state of your team's medic, and I don't believe it has really any sort of pick-based impact dichotomy like TF2 does. The laser change ultra buffs the hell out of medic's survivability, and this alone as a single factor should be enough for it to be understood that this sort of change is not healthy for a game like TF2, even if it is in Splatoon.
Ironically, I believe this would make sniper even more dangerous in his area of expertise : Area denial. With a now entirely visible threat, you will be less inclined to go in, at a moment when the team NEEDS you on the objective in the last crucial seconds. And if you do, you will be so busy trying to avoid the threat you can see, that you will neglect the others, such as a demoman shooting at you from a corner, or the sound of a spy de-cloaking. This would contribute to make the sniper even better as his job.
The problem with sniper has always been the point of visibility. Unless he's wearing an unusual are a really gaudy cosmetic, you might be looking at him but not realise it because of how far away he is. While a crude method of fixing this problem, the beam does work though I've also thought about giving his aiming laser some kind of glare to make his location obvious the moment he scopes in since I think a whole beam makes it far too easy to manually dodge around his bullets.
That's called scope glint, games like call of duty added it for the same reason of Snipers being too hidden in plain sight. I agree it would be be the more moderate compromise between this giant beam and current vanilla TF2.
The laser seems fine to me, just make it so it only appears when he's scoped. Although I think a bigger problem sniper has is being able to do quickly kill yoy without even needing to be scoped first. So if rather the scope in speed be nerfed instead of a laser being add.
I've had the glare idea independently myself, I didn't realize it was already in some games. I think a combination would definitely be best. The laser only shows up when scoped, and if the beam is on or near you, you get a sort of lens flare glow on whatever side it's touching you (similar to the damage indicator in some games). If the sniper is on screen when aiming at you, there's flickering red spot over them so you can immediately identify where they are. Maybe even play a high pitched "light" noise when you're touched. It should give you every opportunity to get out of the way so that it's your fault if you die. The major complaints against snipers in every game are the same. They can instantly kill you from almost anywhere in the map, and can be basically invisible and untouchable just from how far away they are. It puts all the responsibility for your death onto the attacker, because you can't react like you could to machine gun damage for instance, where you can take damage and run away to avoid dying.
Not seeing the sniper is a skill issue. TF2's artstyle makes it incredibly easy to not only notice a player but know that player is a sniper at a single glance, unless he's concealed entirely by foliage (which means he can't see either).
Yeah Halo Infinite took the sniper glare approach as well, and it's _astonishing_ how much less frustrating it is to fight snipers in Infinite compared to previous Halo games specifically because of that change.
This change would make the huntsman next to unusable since you would always know where the arrow would end up once it was fired at you, meaning that it'd be difficult not to dodge it. I don't think it'd be hard to apply this only to the sniper rifles though
Huntsman Sniper is the "balanced" version of Sniper : You are forced to play from mid to close-range in order to be effective, putting you at the same risk as other classes. You have to commit to a charge in order to effectively deal damage, uncharged shots are still possible but requires you to stand in breathing distance if you wanna land them. You have a reduced ammo pool. Your projectile can actually be DODGED and you also have a much longer reload time compared to sniper rifles.
What’s interesting is that, Splatoon’s sniper weapons do have a laser when players charge their shot, which basically gives you the same elements you can see in the experiment here
Also the Binary Rifle from Halo. It's capable of a one-hit kill even with a body shot, but to balance it has low accuracy when hipfired, and upon zooming in it projects a pair of distinct orange beams indicating where it's going to fire.
It's interesting to see that Demo is now effectively a counter class to sniper, since knowing map geometry will often allow you to know where a sniper is just by seeing the laser, and then understanding everywhere the sniper _can't_ be so as to hit him around corners.
Yeah, you are right, and thats a problem, demo is also one of the strongest classes in the game, can engage any fight with the right weapon, is a engi counter, sticky traps and spam, and then he also can kill sniper with the granade launcher just having a basic knowledge of the map and granade falling arc. Nerfing one of the best class to directly buff another dont seems like a good solution to me
@@WeeabooPocky but it was mentioned specifically in the video that sniper has to constantly move to actually do anything now, kinda removing his ability to act as a area denial tool, sentries can do what they do despite being big flashing signs because they have 216 health and a constant stream of healing, their of which sniper can do
The issue with shounic's laser is that its a sourcemod plugin - a hackjob basically. Valve implementing this would be able to perfectly transfer the MvM laser onto the Sniper Rifle in PvP.
But why? That would defeat the entire purpose of knowing where he's looking, because he doesn't have to stay scoped in to do 150 damage in an instant, that's only for the 450 damage or the 150 bodyshot.
This reminds me of a change that was made to Ace of Spades. The Sniper class originally had no Laser which allowed them to hide in corners or far away places and hit you from max render distance. The change they made was to add a Laser when the sniper was Aiming down site. Though they were still extremely dominant, you at least knew where they were before they quick scoped you from existance.
I feel that something like this would be a good addition. It’s a little ridiculous that everyone can always see exactly where the sniper is looking, so having the beam present only while scoped-in would be better. Then perhaps increasing scope-in-time by a little to give people time to react. I also saw someone mention having the laser’s intensity increase as the charge increases, and I agree.
@@sshuckle they kind of do because they can't oneshot a lot of the classes without a full charge. Honestly i'd just make it so the no charge headshot can't one shot any classes except like kunai spy. have it like like 0.5 seconds for it to do the 125
@@axmoylotlonly being able two OHKO kunai spies means only 75 ish damage, which becomes pretty garbage with taking out priority targets or killing a target in mid range. Light classes need 2 quickscopes, medics pyros soldiers and demos take 3, and heavy needs 4 (though this 1 isn’t as important). You also can’t even save your teammates from getting picked off since the time between shots or the charge time is slower than they can kill your medic. Personally I think 120 damage is the sweet spot, which puts his ttk on par with every other class
@@ukaszzib3819Slow down the scope-in and reload animations, maybe add on the reverse damage falloff that the Crossbow has, thereby reducing the Sniper's ability to fight at close range.
As much as I don't like the pyro, I have to agree when you really look back on it, Sniper has to be the most hated. It's especially unfair on very open maps where some sniper hidden somewhere can just pick people off and no one can do anything about it. Pyro gives you a fighting chance at least.
Agree with you there. Sometimes it feels like you have to play the hardest game of "Where's Waldo" to see the 5 visible pixels of a sniper's head to see if you can react in time.
One idea I had is to take an idea from Modern Warfare and make it so that the sniper when zoomed in has a very visible glint so if there's a sniper scoping down on you, you can see him a hell of a lot more easily
Definitely know that some of the folks of the gmod ArcCW sweps have that implemented in the Swep Base, but it’s somewhat crudely done, but that might be because of the limitations of the source engine. Still, I would like to see that tested.
scope glint doesn't really work out on the tf2 sniper. sniper's biggest problem isn't necessarily long range play, it's that he can quickscope faster than a person can blink, yes, blink. the laser solution is practically the only solution to the quickscope problem other than making quickscope unusable.
Maybe a good compromise would be to make it so the line only appears when the sniper is scoped in, and dissapears when they aren't. It would make it a bit easier for the sniper, while still making it clear to the opponent when they really need to watch out. It would give unscoped shots more of a use. You could argue that it just encourages snipers to quickscope all the time, but those are way harder, so it feels more right to me to reward them for that.
I'd argue that the laser fading in to become more visible depending on the charge on top of being turned on only when scoped in would make it a little more fair for both the sniper and the class they are fighting since that way everyone can tell how much damage the sniper can output (even when the beam is barely visible the instance you scope in) and where the sniper is
as a skilled/sweaty sniper I think it's better to keep the laser on even if it's not scoped cuz it's really easy to quick scope enemies rather close range or long range Sniper can be op if its played by good player but also can be countered easily by good playing Soldier/Demo/Spy/Scout/Pyro Basically any class can counter any class if its played well Heck I even wiped 5 people as Medic with Uber + Uber saw Switch Hit combo
People have suggested only turning on the beam when scoped, which is a nice idea, but quickscoping is generally the most effective way to play Sniper already, so you wouldn't get much of a warning anyway. One way to deal with this would be to lengthen the amount of time before you can headshot after scoping in (currently 0.2s), to give a target an actual chance to see the laser and try to evade before 150 damage comes their way.
Maybe a better solution would be to have the beam to turn on when you have the rifle while deployed, and then giving the rifles a slower switch speed, in that way the beam would remain as a warning.
Oh. The Zesty Jesus point. My primary issue with it is that it only looks at the reaction time the target needs to identify the Sniper and excludes the reaction time the Sniper needs to identify the target and flick, assuming they don't use walls and perfect tracking hacks. In my own testing it makes the real reaction time you need somewhere between a half and a full second, just from the variance in the flick you need. That and it makes Sniper play at longer ranges and pre scope, since its less risky due to his reaction time being effectively slower, which is what makes him imbalanced in the first place. Snipers should be made to play closer to their team, that way the DPS classes can actually get on him quickly and Soldier/Demo don't need to bring themselves
I'd never thought that such a complex issue could be solved with such a simple solution. it doesn't outright nerf the sniper, but instead just makes it easier for everyone else to deal with him.
@@psychosomatiqueofficial the point of the sniper is to pick off important targets at a distance, switching positions and strategizing so people don't avoid you, not to be overpowered. if that wasn't the case, we might as well just make non-scoped bodyshots do 600 damage no matter what
This looks like the type of thing that you see in the Splatoon franchise, where the sniper class weapons (or "chargers" as they're called) have this line coming out of the weapon when the weapon is charging/fully charged, and the distance of the line depends on the maximum range of the sniper. This means that people can see wherever the sniper is aiming and therefore have a chance at avoiding it.
I feel like a good idea is for the laser to show up only when zoomed in. Having a giant beacon for the enemy team basically saying, “THE CLASS THAT IS THE BIGGEST THREAT AND SUCKS AT CLOSE RANGE IS RIGHT HERE!” Using it for when they are only zoomed in will encourage sniper players to not spend the entire match scoped in or move their location frequently while still having that interaction between classes. I love the idea of the laser but it adds to all the visual mess of tf2. Rocket jumping soldiers, pyro flames, projectiles flying everywhere, constant checking your back for spies, trying to gun down the enemy scout and a constant beam from both your sniper and the enemy sniper can be very overwhelming. I would say remove the sightline of your teams sniper altogether and only have the sightline on an enmey sniper when they are scoped in.
I think it's a pretty good solution for snipers, but as stated in the video: it obviously gives a pretty big disadvantage towards the sniper, since anybody could see the line and know exactly where you are, so it encourages snipers to move rather than stay in one spot. HOWEVER, this is not always exactly possible on some maps like in CTF and KOTH game modes, where usually sniper sightlines are very limited.
This implementation is flawed because it's always 100% opaque no matter what and regardless of being scoped out or in. I don't know why shounic seemingly rushed this video out because I feel like he and the playtesters should have thought of this after the test.
@@ImGonnaFudgeThatFish I think the opaque-ness is not intentional, he's using the wrangler laser as a placeholder, I'm sure if this was an official implementation it would be much more transparent and only show when scoping in. Coding/Modding TF2 is very hard thanks to source spaghetti so him taking a shortcut like this just for a test is pretty excusable.
A fangame called Typical Colors 2 on Roblox did something really similar, but made it so that it’s only when the Marksman, its Sniper alternative, is scoped in, and I really enjoy it.
@@techtheuwumaster9177 aside from the fact that I don’t have a computer, the game is genuinely really well made and introduces a ton of really cool concepts and new weapons. Cringe culture is dead, and I’m actively pissing on its grave.
@@theasianthatsbetterthanyou8324 meanwhile a bot has near perfect accuracy, comes in swarms, spam vc and test, steal players pfps and usernames and try to kick real people from the server. Which one would you prefer? A good sniper or 5 to 6 bots?
@@theasianthatsbetterthanyou8324 I do find getting killed by a sniper who is just a headshot god at the game annoying, but I’d prefer to deal with that instead of a bunch of code specifically intended to ruin the game.
I feel like maybe the beam could get more visible the more you charge your shot. Example: if you just started scoping in, it would be transparent. Then when its at half, it becomes easily visible. Finally, when its fully scoped it would even emit a little light too. Idk, just a thought. Also make the Sniper beams only visible when they're scoping. Last thing, maybe it could flicker like a broken light occasionally, so Snipers can still fool others into thinking they weren't scoping.
The laser's an important game design addition for visibility, a huge step in the right direction, just implemented poorly currently and in need of refinement for this idea. Suggestions: - lasers only on the Sniper's rifles and not the Huntsman - laser beam only appears while scoping in (or while charging for the Classic) - the Sniper's default laser dot is visible while the rifle is active - the Sniper's default laser dot will blink more solid and a bit wider when he scopes in, the same duration of the delay before he can score headshots (or continuously blink for when the Classic can headshot) - the laser beam becomes increasingly visible the longer the sniper's scoped, in line with his charge, but without completely blocking player vision. This will be difficult to balance, making the difference subtle yet informative enough, but it's possible - the dot, when placed on a target's head hitbox, even with a glancing pass, will cause a warning indicator like a damage indicator to flash in the direction of the Sniper, and the class being aimed at will shout their Sniper presence warnings from MvM This should give even the least aware player enough warning stimuli to take action and get evasive, while, also, being logically consistent and more refined. The Sniper can still just keep his laser next to a choke or sightline (2fort balcony) he's holding and flick to targets that enter his sight, but that demands a bit more skill than planting aim into the actual choke or sighline. And make the Heatmaker's Focus active period more visible from just the Machina tracers. Maybe make the laser become the Machina tracer while it's active, and the laser dot Crits spark. Furthermore, a Crit-boosted Sniper Rifle's laser dot should spark, too, just the two statuses need to be distinct
Maybe when you aim, the laser on the sniper rifle could be activated, emitting a thin, light line instead of the red bar you used. It would make aiming down sight-lines useless, which means they would have to aim in quickly to effectively use the sight line. Just an idea.
@@TheProAtPUBG ..Literally no? Snipers are in the backlines, either behind the team or at most within a group of teammates. And if there's a sentry in the path "Flanking" literally isn't an option. If it was so easy to flank Sniper if you knew where he was then Sniper wouldn't be known for being so broken.
I think "the sniper has to be more aware of his positioning." Is a severe understatement. He is effectively revealed to the entire map at all times. A better idea imo would be tracer rounds, so he only reveals his position after taking a shot, improving his consistency but still forcing him to move every now and then.
This was the equivalent of giving spy a big fucking bubble on top of their head that says "IM GOING TO BSCKSTAB SOMEONE HONHONHON" even while cloaked or disguised It only benefits players that aren't Swipez1 wannabes
That literally solved nothing, the fucking machina has it and it's still broken , it doesn't matter and it doesn't change the way you engage with him , it's still one sided
@@literallyvergil1686 obviously it's not a perfect change, you could make other tweaks. I'm just saying that constantly revealing the exact position of a light class with no movement is a terrible idea.
100% something that I think needs to be added to the base game whenever a sniper is scoped in, so basically just make the Sniper into the MvM Sniperbots. Between this and a small delay between scoping-in and being able to headshot so the sniper can't skip the laser by simply quickscoping you, I think Sniper would be far better and no longer a complete annoyance. I always felt like Sniper's damage potential and safety from getting killed easily needed to come with something that alerted you to his presence, and this does it.
Sniper is definitely too OP, coming from a Sniper main (I mention since I'm trying to show you I ain't in arrogance saying he's balanced). I would actually prefer it also if his base headshot critical damage didn't 1 shot half of the mercs as well, way too over powered. Sniper is suppose to be support, not flat out deny an entire team if you are so good playing him. His role should still be giving massive damage to the enemy so your team can finish them easier, but damn it his initial damage should not be capable of taking out half the classes without ovwrheal. Dare I say, a fully charged shot should be capable of only doing 200-225 damage. Because now at least quickscoping won't be an issue anymore, now all Snipers have to actually aim & wait to kill most classes in 1 shot, & the Heavy class (any really) definitely gets more room to breathe. And now Sniper won't be the "better Spy," Spy will be the only one capable of killing anyone at any HP in one blow in a quick session with chain stabs. (compared to quickscope after quickscope)
@@Paycheck777 Sniper being able to kill most of the classes with a headshot is fine as long as it takes a little while to do it, but right now it really doesn't since he can do it so quickly. I wouldn't say sniper is a support class either, that may be what he's called in the menu but it definetly isnt accurate.
Gonna be honest, the idea of the laser only being active while the sniper is scoped doesn't stop the sniper from just waiting unscoped until people approach his sightline where the laser's impact is much less. Here is a pitch, makes the draw speed of the sniper rifle longer and make the laser show when the rifle is out. You can still be stealthy with sniper while vulnerable until you want to have a impact where your laser will immediately notify of your location, creating a dodgable death. Just me though.
I think this is an interesting and potentially good change, but I think the bigger issue is simply the ability to get a free 150 at any range on any class. Sniper either needs a longer wait period before being able to headshot after scoping in, or to do less base damage (say, 120), forcing the sniper to wait and charge up a shot to guarantee kills on most classes, leaving him vulnerable and giving him an actual weakness.
Overwatch's Widowmaker does just this. When you scope, it charges up from like 50 to 150 damage in around a second, and resets when you fire. This basically prevents quickscoping entirely.
"free" is a very big word here, since it really isn't free. This laser as is would definitely be an over-nerf, but something like a glint that appears when he is scoped or maybe the laser only appears while he is scoped would be good enough to calm people down.
@@benander6017 The problem is that sniper's only skill ceiling is how well players can aim. And, as much as you might hate to admit it, some players aim on a near-aimbot level. As stated in the video rather gracefully; the only real "counter" is to simply not even get in a sniper's line of sight to begin with. And at that point, sniper has a ridiculous amount of power to block any path or route he wants. It's blatantly obvious that sniper is broken, and yes, he can absolutely get "free" 150 headshots.
@@TheGeekRex Overwatch's main feature in this regard is that it features large shields, with lots of health and no head critbox, which are a direct counter to high-burst, low-DPS snipers.
This is my favorite sniper rebalence idea because it actually forces people to learn to play against a sniper and not just complain that the long range class killed them at long range (also I belive the beam should only be visible while the rifle is active and ofc originate from the barrel of the rifle not give sniper lazer eyes, but thats kind of self explanitory)
although being able to see where the sniper is sounds quite powerful, it still has to be powerful. Something about have a lasee pointed directly at you is kinda spooky and something you have to respect.
Yeah, I think that really is one of the bigger problems with Sniper; he just lacks really any audiovisual cues...which feels like a blind spot on Valve's part considering how every other class has more stuff that alerts you of their presence
In Robocraft the sniper laser is very important to also give a sense of tension while scouting a part of the map in search of enemies (other than the fact that a Railgun shot can disassemble your robot in seconds with a well placed shot) but the laser is only visible when scoping
One solution to not remove the importance of good positioning from the class would be to make the "beam" a nearly invisible refraction of light (like the way light warps on a hot sidewalk.) So if you round a corner and notice the air in from of you is bending weirdly, then a Sniper must be scoped in. If you aren't paying attention, then you'll probably miss it. This puts Sniper closer in line with Spy, where the trick is to come at a direction/time that players have their guard down, while discouraging using the same spot over and over.
i really liked this. i’m a bit surprised you didn’t bring up that robot snipers have a laser showing where they’re looking while scoped. in mvm this is an amazing feature because you can figure out where you’re getting shot from while you’re otherwise focused on the other robots. i like seeing it in actual gameplay as it really balances sniper out
I feel like it would be beneficial if the line of sight beam would only be visible when the sniper is scoped in. That way the sniper can both position themselves in an area but also be telegraphed to where they are when scoped in. Also you should remove the beam for the bows and the Sydney sleeper. The bows since sniper is reduced to a mid range class And the Sydney sleeper because it's a more support oriented weapon that can't crit headshot.
Honestly just having the sniper dot be a solid laser would be the perfect solution. I mean, TF2 is in the late 1960s and early 70s, laser sights were first marketed in 1979, so obviously the laser sight Sniper has would have to be thick enough to see with the naked eye. So making Sniper's entire laser visible would be both good game design and historically accurate.
I would personally turn down the opacity on the lazer a little and make it so the beam is only there when he's aiming to make the beam less obnoxious, more reasonable for a shooter, and to give the sniper a bit more of an edge.
Making it "less obnoxious" defeats the entire purpose. It's like saying übers shouldn't be as bright to make them less obnoxious. No, powerful things need to be obnoxious. The wrangler isn't half as dangerous as a sniper, yet it has a bright laser all the time.
@@Hedning1390 the laser isn't there when the sentry isn't being wrangled, so why should a sniper's laser be there when he's not aiming? why should it be there when he has his mele out? it'l just look silly having a laser pointing wherever your team's sniper is looking all the damn time.
@@vidiottheowl2825 The difference is the sniper can do his 150 damage instantly aiming for a shorter time than what can be perceived by his target while the sentry can only do that damage over a period of time especially at the ranges where the wrangler might be used. You could argue that it shouldn't be there when the melee is out. That's fair but this was just a quick and dirty mod. I'm not arguing for the beam to be there with the melee active.
Honestly this is brilliant because it also indirectly makes spy a better pock in certain situations, where before there was basically no situation the sniper couldn't do better.
@@AbyssalOzen Speed buffs on spy arent as effective compared to other classes since his disguise makes his speed match that of who he's disguised as. As far as health goes that one can be a bit dangerous as it leans closer to becoming combat class. I'd rather his unique abilities be buffed instead like his cloak and disguise.
"Sniper players reported scoping down a doorway and waiting for people to show up wasn't viable" Man, I can't just stare at a chokepoint and get headshots?
I feel instead of a laser maybe a scope glare/glint similar to the battlefield games could be implemented to tell you when a sniper is aiming at you and where he is. Afterall the sniper emits a laser from his scope so you should be able to tell from the laser glare if he's aiming at your head. This way the player will be notified if a sniper has their attention on you without making the sniper's job more difficult. Although this won't tell you if a sniper is around the corner but with enough reflex maybe you could avoid them and get back behind cover.
Halo has the glare shit and it makes it real easy to tell if someone’s got a sniper, but its a massive fucking blinding light so its hard to fight back cus you cant fucking see them. I think the laser is a better idea
I feel like sniper needs to have his ability to go from unscoped to killing you within a fraction of a second removed. Like maybe speed up the reload but make it so you can’t do 150 damage for about a second when you scope in, it would make shooting you point blank way more difficult because the sniper has to be almost still while aiming, and while it wouldn’t stop snipers from just staying scoped the entire time, at least now you know that they either have reduced vision or can’t kill you for a second when you peak.
You need to not peak those locations. The laser is a great solution (granted it should only exist when the sniper is scoped in) without damaging the entire purpose of the class. Sounds cheesy, but most people's problem with sniper is almost purely a skill / map awareness issue.
@@benander6017 yeah but with how common sniper as a class is and how often they scope in, visually it would look weird to constantly see super long lasers shooting from that random Gibus sniper’s eyes, with the wrangler it’s a situational unlock, but sniper’s main ability is scoping in so the visual noise would be a bit distracting.
Easily solved by reducing the damage, making headshots require a full charge (or partial charge), or by just removing sniper. Sniper is not a tf2 class; he doesn't play by any of the same rules every other class does, and the biggest counter is countered by sniper having the best support item (jarate).
@@WaterZer0 Sniper vs Spy feels like the matchup that was thrown in by mistake into the game objective formula that defines TF2 All other classes add to the push or defend effort with manpower, Sniper and Spy add to the risk factor with backstabs and random headshots They are like player manned enviromental hazards, like a death pit that's gunning for you
I feel like this raises sniper's skill floor. I'll bet the random hobos you found for this experiment already know how to play sniper, at the very least have a basic understanding of how he works. If you were a noob with sniper or just completely new to TF2 in general, trying to play sniper would be incredibly hard and frustrating. Not only can you never hit anyone, they also seem to know exactly where you are all the time.
I think the beam should be invisible near the Sniper, and gradually become brighter as it goes, because while being able to see where a sniper is balances it, being able to perfectly see where it can aim and being able to "dodge" the shots at close range seems OP.
sniper shouldn't be at close range anyways, i think it'd just make people think about their positioning more i prefer the idea other people had where the beam is transparent or very hard to see and it gets easier to see the more charged the shot is
This remind me the snipers from Payday 2 that and the turrets are the only enemies that have laser to indicate their position and targets (players). It's very helpful at large maps to pick them first before escaping from a swarm of enemies.
Payday 2 is also a PvE game where you are supposed to have the advantage against the tide of mobs. It works well because it gives the group that's "supposed to win" the advantage and you normally can't get to the spots that the snipers occupy at all in that game. I don't really think it's a fair comparison.
@@1313hman snipers one shot you from where you can't even deal damage, depending on what weapon you're carrying and what map you're in on both of those games. if you ever played high difficulty pd2 you'd know how terrifying those guys are. it'd be ridiculous to play without the laser, as tf2 sniper currently is.
@@JoaoPedro-ps8lk and what's the problem with that? Are you saying that no matter what weapons you pick and no matter where they are, you should be able to deal with them like anyone else? What's even the point of different load outs then. Payday rant aside, TF2 snipers don't (at least not as intended in PvP) have aim bot, and can miss their shots, it takes skill to be oppressive, and even then the most skilled snipers aren't as oppressive as the most skilled rocket jumping soldiers.
@@1313hman I agree, assign beams to the sniper makes this class unfun to play since you're already weak at close range, people will focus you more and requires skill to quick scope. Being at close range for a sniper is already a huge disadvantage for him. I would say something about the sniper weapons, like the bargain and Machina.
@@yuukiyoshizawa7007 > Weak at close range I keep seeing this shit everywhere. Do people forget that sniper can do exactly the same amount of damage up close? Do people forget he has a bottle of AoE minicrits on demand? Do people forget that the AoE minicrits are commonly paired with a weapon that turns minicrits into crits? Sniper is anything but weak at any range.
Make this into a mod people can download, especially if you can have settings for like "beam all the time" "beam only when scoped" "beam only when un-scoped" (this adds some "which works best" variance) and a distance you have to be away from the sniper for the beam to render for you (so if you're in short/melee range you have to go by other cues).
Team fortress 2 update: Now added a sight of beam when scoping in a sniper rifle. While scoping on a enemy's head for a while the enemy gets blinded by the beam.
thats actually really interesting. i love gameplay experiments like this, where you toy with the rules and let what is effectively darwinian evolution develop new strategies and metas on the spot.
This makes sense. It forces sniper players to be better, rather than just standing still. It also forces better positioning and movement since you can't just stay in one place anymore either, otherwise you're gonna get a whole number of people up your ass, all the time.
Thematically it makes no sense to why a sniper's job isn't to hold a single area with their scope but then again this is the TF2 universe where rocket jumping is a thing so I think I'll be fine with that change
@@eylore3934 the problem becomes, the sentry is a lot louder and easier to pick up on. A sniper is near invisible behind everything else going on half the time. If anything, this makes him do his job better.
I like the concept, but I think it could use a little bit of fine-tuning if you actually wanted to legitimately consider this design change, since in its current state it makes sniper’s traditional weaknesses a lot less reliable, while also changing his strengths. For example, you can’t rely on capitalizing on the Sniper’s tunnel vision with the laser in play since hard-scoping an angle simply isn’t viable in the first place, and instead forces Sniper into this quickscope-hungry duelist playstyle which (while super cool) probably isn’t ideal for the class’ theming. Here’s a couple things I’d consider - I wouldn’t necessarily add them all but they’re all potentially interesting: - Making Sniper’s trail only visible if he’s scoped in for a certain amount of time (this would also make the Classic and Huntsman exempt from the change, which would be on model for huntsman’s design and a neat little buff to the Classic) - Combining the change with a slight increase in time before you can shoot after scoping in (This change alone is generally decent since it stops Sniper from point-blank quickscoping as easily, but in conjunction with the laser might just kill the class so there’s a sweet spot to hunt for here) - Make Sniper’s charge time faster (this would make scoping for medium amounts of time generally optimal, and can also make his matchup with light classes like scout very interesting since he can dodge the shots easily but risks dying in 1 hit more often) - Add a little more knockback or a slight slow to Sniper’s bullets (this one’s a bit of an oddball, it offers the potential of giving Sniper more of a general support role since it could make locking down picks easier in conjunction with the team, but threatens to make the class potentially even more toxic than he was before since stun mechanics are frowned upon in TF2)
(the experiment is over, you can't play it anymore. there is no server)
It needs more Saxton Hale
I always find these videos unique and interesting, I think one where there is no movement speed cap would also be interesting if it’s even possible to do.
The way you present your videos (ie title, your voice and the structure of the overall video) has shitpost energy but you actually get to know a bit more of this spaghetti code of a game that is my thoughts
Show LoS only when scoped
you need more pannenkoek influence
This test made me paranoid, and now wrangler lasers scare me
Thank you Dr. Bright
The wrangler itself is a threat. increased fire speed and defense PLUS AUTO AIM. Even the downside of the sentry getting disabled can be used to tank ubers. Ridiculous!
@@DocSauce-dl5gg kill the engineer and sticky bomb the sentry. or sap it and stab or shoot the engie. not hard or just snipe them.
@@DocSauce-dl5gg yes, the wrangler is op, but it can't delete poor innocent pyro mains from across the map like sniper can
@@DocSauce-dl5gg aim assist*
A “Sniper ahead!” voice command would also be appreciated, similar to the one for Spy.
I believe Overwatch characters automatically call out when a sniper is nearby, which I thought was a helpful mechanic.
Yeah this. It's annoying that there's some useful voice commands that aren't in the game. Like "Behind you!" command would be so appreciated
A "Sniper ahead!" Voiceline would be really easy to implement too, considering that most of the classes have sniper autocallouts for mvm.
This! ^ ^ ^
It always puzzled me how there's a sentry ahead voiceline but not a sniper ahead one. I'd be much more worried about a class that can instantly down me with one bad mistake (like spy, who has a voiceline too!) than a stationary heavy that beeps every second
@@slundo6325 yeah, they could even just replace "Pass to me!" since PASS time crashed and burned
I think it might be interesting if the Sydney Sleeper SPECIFICALLY did not have the laser, allowing snipers using it to actively support their team while being harder to find
I think that’s at least somewhat fair
That's pretty fair honestly.
The issue is Valve also made the Sydney Sleeper a bodyshot machine. So my fix to this is to keep the laser, or nerf the bodyshot capabilities of the rifle to do 90-100 damage max to either the head or body and in return the sniper becomes less visible and more support oriented.
Maybe also the Classic because goddamn that weapon sucks.
@@heart4011Up to 135 with a fully charged mini-crit headshot seems fair enough. If you catch a really out of position engi, a slow scout, or just an oblivious sniper, you deserve the kill imo. Especially with the scout. That’s not easy to hit.
having this be a thing when they're SCOPED sounds like an actual good idea to put in the game
That's what the sniper dot is SUPPOSED to do, but it's so small that it's easy to miss in gameplay
@@KannaDHD it already has a laser
@@twin_towers_destroyer I’m guessing you’re talking about mvm robot snipers that have laser beams
@@luigijackson6252 yes
Visible lasers for fully charged scopes would be good enough.
maybe we can change the strength of the beam depending on the charge of the rifle and scoping status. The beam only appears when scoped in. When there is no charge, the beam will be weak but still visible to vigilant players. When the sniper is fully charged, the beam will become very obvious. Such change will also balance unfair guns like Bazzar Bargain since the beam will become very obvious very quickly.
that's just a splatoon charger
I very much like this proposal. One problem I had with the original model was it always being visible, but showing the charge strength would also give away how unsafe it would be to cross.
@@anton-exe and that's good
bro stop stealing my thoughts
Basically the Sniper Dot actually has a laser
I can't tell you enough how much this looks like those levels in Half Life 2 where you dodge combine snipers.
Technically, Valve themselves have already engaged in this solution!
Mvm snipers have beams too
Yeah, it's the standard implementation of NPC snipers in most games. I've always wanted to see how it would work in a PvP multiplayer game.
@@Monody512 ace of spades marksmen had exactly that. Too bad the game is dead.
@@Monody512The trouble is everyone wants to use the gun they're holding, and with this solution, you're not likely using it on anyone.
AoS Classic will never truly die, so hey!
This is what the Splatoon games do with the charger class, and it goes a long way towards balancing them. Chargers have the most range and can one-shot - allowing them to control a huge amount of space - in a game all about controlling space. However, the laser makes it more obvious where they’re aiming and where their maximum range is, making them much easier to counter. Despite this, a good charger player can still be very effective, because they can hide the laser behind a wall and then flick onto their target.
The fact that chargers have a maximum range at all is a large factor as well. Splatoon maps are all super wide open with enormous sightlines but charger isn't a problem because it's not good enough to find a spot to stand where they can see enemy heads, they have to find a spot to stand that's close enough to the enemy for them to reach. Which, in turn gets them close enough to be seen by the enemy, which introduces counterplay. I also really like the balancing of each charger with its own effective range, charge time, damage, etc.
Not to mention the fact that chargers basically plant a mini-sun on you, making it easy to spot from a distance so you know where a dangerous area is.
Aren't they getting rid of the beam in 3? Or was that a big in the Direct?
@@MeoburN07 in the release date trailer, the charger had a laser
@@TheEggoEffect hmm, must have been something they accidentally removed but put back in or something
here's a suggestion: remove the beam's visibility completely when the sniper isn't scoped in or has zero percent charge while scoped in, and gradually decrease the opacity of the beam, making it more clear to see, as the charge increases
Kind of like splatoon
You mean INCREASE the opacity.
oh like the dot but its literally just a beam
Eh that wouldn't do much to stop quick scopes
this would be a good change if they also added a one second delay before headshots would count, or added a ramp up period for headshots while scoped to nerf quickscopes
I believe that even with a sort of "dusty hazy appearance" of a red line could make the experience a lot more fun while not completely giving away the sniper (essentially you would need to actually be aware of what the laser would look like before being able to spot it)
Have it stronger where it originates and fade over distance like a real laser pointer. Still let’s you see where it’s coming from and assess accordingly, but doesn’t let you literally dodge bullets or get a perfect flank.
This is a really interesting mechanic that could be explored more to address the sniper issue. Maybe the beam should only appear when scoped like others said or only be visible when the sniper fires like the machina, then give the machina the permanent beam (which would probably look really cool with the reskin)
I love how this mechanic is pretty much the hl2 combine snipers but as playable multiplayer characters
I think they should be visible if the sniper rifle is equipped, not if he's scoped
Most snipers have by now learned how to quickscope the player's head
Your idea does absolutely nothing. The problem is not a case of knowing where the sniper is. The problem is he can't be engaged. You can know where a sniper is and still not be able to do anything about it. Quickscope exists you know. A sniper could stand in the house not scoped at swiftwater first and quickscope whatever leaves spawn in complete safety. Your idea does nothing to adress this. With the constant beams you can take the door he's not looking at and get at least some chance to dodge him.
@@Hedning1390 it's like I mentioned, it'd be best to exclusively appear when the rifle is on the sniper's hand, because if they wanna quickscope under those circumstances they'll usually have a significantly less quick scope pulling out the rifle, waiting for the animation and shooting
@@mzov_1724 That's fine. Having it whenever the sniper rifle is equipped is good. Only when scoping is not good enough.
In general, Sniper needs to be more visible. I saw a suggestion to give him a clip and an exceptionally loud reload, I've been thinking "what if every rifle had a Classic-style Tracer", but this is also a good solution.
make all sniper rifles garands so you hear a PING, when he's reloading or our of ammo in his clip
Reducing his ammo pool from 25 down to 15 or even 10 will help a lot, and having to reload on every 5th shot.
@FruityCrits 🤣🤣🤣
I do like the idea of every rifle having a classic style traces.
@@bigblue344 switch Huntsman's and the Rifles ammo capacity
Typically with sniper, the problem is the "good" snipers that can quick scope on demand. "Bad" snipers can be annoying but they aren't overly crazy. The laser I think will be to punishing for bad players so maybe some changes like the laser only appears while they scope, and hangs for a few seconds after they unscope.
The most interesting factor though for me is that it is a new variable to balance the game. Both the class itself and and a new stat you can balance individual weapons.
I really like the idea of the laser sight when scoped for another reason: this actually gives a new play for Wrangler Engies. If they have similar lasers, then an Engie can pretend to be a Sniper and intimidate enemies, even if just for a short period of time.
Yes, and this highlights how OP sniper is currently. A level 3 sentry should be king of area denial, but just the possibility of a sniper is a better area denial than your level 3 sentry.
@@Hedning1390 The thing is that a level three sentry can't instantly kill you if you peek, whereas a Sniper can instantly kill you if you appear in their line of sight for even a millisecond. It isn't even necessarily skill, as I have bad aim but have also gotten very silly lucky shots/predicts while sniping.
@@guiltriple It's virtually all skill. Sure you are gonna hit some dumb shot every once in a while because of luck, but that's the same for literally every class. Sniper instantly killing isn't the issue, removing his ability to instantly kill would literally make the class unplayable.
@@Degenerate04 good
okay i REALLY want this in the game now because that would be HILARIOUS
Interesting. People always say "respect the sightline," but this definitely makes it clear when you need to respect it.
I assume this laser indicator was taken from the MVM robots?
Did Sniper v Sniper duels become more enjoyable?
Did this change affect the effectiveness of heavies or medics significantly? People often cite overhealed heavies as one of the main reasons why Sniper is healthy for the game.
Did people start running the Machina/Heatmaker/Huntsman more? The laser tracers inherent to the previous two weapons becomes less of a nerf when all the other rifles have a giant laser, while the Huntsman presumably didn't have any laser at all?
(Edit: Frpm the video it looks like the giant laser shows up even while unscoped? Which is kinda odd.)
Were the viability of any sniper secondaries/melees affected? I assume the Cozy Camper would have been most impacted, but...
Were there situations where big sightlines made the laser not inhibit hardscoping at all?
Were there any major complaints after this change?
Wouldn't be much point to the mod if the laser didn't show up when unscoped, since quickscoping is the most effective way to play sniper anyway.
This
Yeah people always love to say "Just avoid the sightlines" which ends up being 80% of the map and the people who say this are often sniper mains themselves
@@sahazra what, does the sniper just have a pen laser attached to his head now?
You can see a huntsman sniper at 1:05
As a game dev who really likes playing sniper but knew it would be frustrating to play against, this video might just be the solution i was looking for. Good ideas, and I hope to see more!
Information counters long range!
Common sense counters morons like you ! GTFO with your piece of shit broken class !@@RandomFurry07
Recommend only using the line when scoped in, alot of other games do that too to prevent frustration
What's funny is that I think this is already an active feature, but it's specific to Sniper and Sydney Sleeper Robots in Mann vs Machine. It's not quite as visible, but they do have a blue Laser Sight that stretches from their eyes which is quite fitting considering they are robots with very bright eyes.
I'm fairly certain that existing logic was precisely what shounic hooked into to make this possible
they would need some kind of modification in their eyes specifically to snipe
I’d kill to play on a server with this active, strobe light snipers would be great at friendly parties.
It would be a party whenever a spinbot joins until they get kicked
That's an interesting use of the feature honestly
"HOW DARE U MAKE SNIPER FAIR AND BALANCED"
Triggered sniper mains in the comments
Shounic might be the only one to convince me that sniper isn't broken with his knowledge in game mechanics but nope even he agrees that sniper is broken
This game lacks content and updates. A lot of weapons need toning down. There’s toooooo many direct upgrades in this game.
But sniper? Man the dude needs a rework as much as heavy. Gameplay is boring, and the frustration snipers causes is too much. (Not to mention the bot crisis)
I do want to say though, I do love the videos solution tho.
@@mark-jf5ik heavy doesn't need a rework
@@mark-jf5ik i dont find the gameplay boring, sniper is pretty fun
@Kadather 🤣yes yes of course
I think the beam being implemented this "crudely" would alienate the class by a lot. Perhaps it should only show up when sniper is aiming down the scope, and as he charges the shot, the beam becomes more and more opaque. It would at least force snipers not to stare into some location as they would unscope and move often to keep their beam as low-profile as possible.
Also, snipers can still hide their beam by aiming into a nearby wall, and when a player pops out, they can flick shot them. Whenever or not this should be rewarding to sniper, I dunno.
The issue with shounic's laser is that its a sourcemod plugin - a hackjob basically. Valve implementing this would be able to perfectly transfer the MvM laser onto the Sniper Rifle in PvP.
@@kerbonaut2059 I mean, yeah. If valve themselves made this, it'd probably be better looking and feeling, but this kind of put-together experiment seems rather necessary to get the idea across
This would actually make the Classic viable, because you could scope in with no beam.
@@exodiusgames6021 classic just means you can headshot without scoping, but yes you have a point
I think it could just come out of the rifle always, wouldn't hurt. I think also sniper could get an extra 25 health to make him a little less squishy.
"I found 23 random hobos and asked them to join my TF2 server"
-Shounic, 2022
The Combine Sniper fighting is way more fun than vanilla snip0er
I think maybe the closer the laser gets to you, the more visible it should be. Like it fades in based on distance/closeness.
Mostly because seeing all those lasers flying all over the place I feel kind of makes the visuals of the game a bit messy and too hectic, even for tf2 standards.
and it also wouldn't easily show your location to everyone, but just to the people one is targeting. i like that idea
Agreed, the only thing I was worried about before is all the lasers looking annoying, but with this suggestion I'm fully behind it.
or the laser only shows up if your aimed, or when you have the rifle equipped?
Had the exact same idea!
I was looking for a comment like this. I think it's a pretty brilliant starting point to balance sniper, but damn this shit is ugly and annoying.
This is how it’s done in Splatoon and I think it’s a great improvement, although it’s pretty easy to avoid showing the sight line by flicking. Splatoon also adds a limit to how far you can snipe.
That sounds amazing
TF2 also has a range beyond which the bullets from the rifle lose all kinetic energy and don't hurt anything actually, it's just so ridiculously long that in practice it may as well be infinite
This feature already exists in tf2, with a visible beam when the sniper scopes in, but this only applies to the robot snipers in mvm, when they scope in they get a wrangler style beam so you can tell where they are looking at.
The issue with shounic's laser is that its a sourcemod plugin - a hackjob basically. Valve implementing this would be able to perfectly transfer the MvM laser onto the Sniper Rifle in PvP.
@@kerbonaut2059 I think that was Frank's point?
@@kerbonaut2059 that's literally what the OP is saying?
@@youtubeuniversity3638 I've seen Kerbs comment quite a few times. It's a spammy copy paste so it wasn't written in this context lol
@@Brixster mf really out here posting the same comment to dozens of posts like a bot
"The beam was enough to make playing against a sniper not frustrating"
This is effectivelly killing the whole purpose of snipers in first place, lmao, but on the other hand - you can simply keep your eyes anywhere else where the beam is hidden, and only going for a strike when the target is in the proximity, something of a quickscoping but with a twist.
I think the beam should only be on while scoped, or maybe even charged, just so it indicates "Hey! This here way is definitive death!" instead of showing location of sniper even if he isn't ready to at least try defending himself
no, sniper can just unscope to remove the beam
@@dclc but that would mean the sniper relies heavily on his ability to quickscope the moment he sees a target enter his sightline, and that is hoping that target does not have hp above 150
I really like this compromise. Should be an official feature TBH.
Wehn scoped in yes, when charged no I am really bad at sniper and even then most of my shots aren't fully charged
I personally think the line should have more opacity (I mean less transparent) when it's charged
My worry with this alteration is that it actively encourages quickscoping, makes it much harder for new players to learn how to aim, and drastically devalues good positioning and gamesense, which is what Snipers were originally supposed to use before quickscoping became a thing.
Pretty much this.
Knowing where the sniper is aiming at is cool and all but when was the last time you saw a pub-stomping sniper hardscope? Unless the laser is also active when he's not scoped in, but then again they can just hide it like they hide the dot while scoping.
The main problem is the damage; the fact that any decent sniper can essentially random crit on demand before you're even in fighting distance.
That's why I prefer scope-glint over this beam idea. Snipers are supposed to be the patient wait for the right moment type class. I agree with shounic and many players that Snipers are just too hard to really see coming, and I think a scope glint would be a really nice compromise because Snipers wouldn't be able to shoot you by hiding in plain sight but they could still hold angles.
Just remove quickscoping, problem solved.
GOOD.
They should invest time and risk for their damage like everyone else.
Combine it with quick scope nerf and i might even call sniper "balanced"
Being able to lock down an entry is incredibly powerful. now in pubs a sniper can hold down a choke, and because they have their reticle hidden (or not and the players didnt notice) they'll just be drip fed kills over time. If the threat was more visible, players would actively avoid that path, meaning that now sniper can more effectively funnel down players into other paths
This is what already happens in high level of competitive play, but only because players are all on voice chat immediately calling out where the sniper is
Seeing this implemented in a way that would only have the beam active while the sniper is scoped in would most certainly make playing against sniper more enjoyable while also not making sniper to easy to counter.
Splatoon already fixed this back in 2015. The sniper rifle weapons in that game do exactly this: create a big bright beam visible to other players when you are charging up / scoped. It works pretty well.
....on top of putting range limits on sniper rifles. They have long range, but you can't just shoot all the way across the map like TF2 Sniper can. Of course, this is mostly due to the Ink mechanics of Splatoon, as being able to shoot a line of ink all the way across the map would be hilariously broken.
First Solarlight’s controller video, now adding a laser to Sniper… Splatoon really thought out a bunch of stuff, huh?
@@CBaller well if to think about that tf2 did thay first, in mvm
Splatoon also makes this mechanic more engaging by having you use the environment to hide your sight line until you're ready to flick or until you notice a distracted opponent.
@@CBaller
Splatoon is a more balanced TF2
Putting range restrictions is a lazy justification to keep making stupid maps with stupid big sightlines to please MrShootMyFeet
Maybe the laser should only come when they scope in? And make it longer for a sniper to actually scope in so if he’s camping somewhere hidden and then pull up his scope you have time to see it and react
maybe only when he's got his sniper rifle out, unscoped or not.
50 damage is still considerable and he can still *see* you and immediately react when unscoped by quickscoping
@@eva2602 This is a batter idea then making quick scopes imposible in my oppinion.
or what if
while scoped in, not moving your crosshair for X seconds fades the laser slightly, making it harder to see
@@OrangeKRUSH001a that would encourage camping and stationary snipers, the opposite of what the laser is meant to do
@@FantasmaNaranja well to be fair snipers whole point is to camp and sit in one place
There was a game called “Ace of Spades”, which was like a “tf 2 + minecraft” game. The Sniper class was with laser sights, but only when he scoped in. It was a powerful class, but you could deal with him, because you could see where he is looking and build defences or (if you were a miner class) tunnel to him
It would help a lot having a consistent way of knowing where Sniper is aiming, since most of the time you're just really guessing where the dot is coming from and what part of the map he is, but the flat 150 damage with an almost zero time to react (unlike the rest of the classes) is still a headache.
> but the flat 150 damage with an almost zero time to react
Ah yes, Because I can react to the Scout about to do 102 meatshot like I got spare time to dodge it.
You don't react to Sniper, You avoid the sightline.
Now quit watching Zesty Jesus before your brain rots from his horrible takes.
@@annon4645 You can't react to the spy backstabbing you for an instant kill either, but no one complains about that. The difference with scout is that you can see him coming most of the time and he also has to get up close and personal and actually work for his damage, unlike sniper who can sit in one spot across the map and do more damage simply by clicking on your head.
@@annon4645 bro chill lol
@@annon4645 I don't like Snipers but I also don't like Zesty Jesus...
@@annon4645 bro I cam see that scout coming a mile away, he ain't slick
also who's zesty jesus
honestly as a splatoon player, this change makes sense. Chargers do this in Splatoon and it gives a level of footsies between charger mains and everyone else, and slightly raises the skill ceiling by making flickshots and hiding your laser strangely viable tricks, though the latter is only really viable because you're playing a sniper with a laser sight in a 3rd person shooter, and is less effective with splatterscopes (which zoom into a first person view at full charge similiar to snipers in TF2)
yeah, the charger hate is still real but much less so and has lots of counterplay. being able to avoid being seen by squidding through sightlines probably helps a ton too but even then chargers can learn to see the faint trails in ink, which encourages even more depth and skill. also the tf2 and splatoon overlap is surprisingly strong i love that
I play Splatoon but never have played TF2, so I just assumed Sniper also had a line like Splatoon chargers do. When I found out that he doesn’t (which was just now), I was shooketh.
TF2 is a better game from a better genre than Splatoon, making TF2 more like Splatoon is a horrible idea
@@TrouserSnivy Those first two points you mentioned were completely subjective and out of place lol, especially in a discussion about hypothetical game balance.
@@EonTheAien alright, I gave a mostly subjective and unhelpful response because I'm a bitter ass and after ten years of playing the game just to see the community still has awful opinions, sometimes I express that bitterness outwardly.
If you want me to make it more objective, Splatoon plays vastly differently and therefore we should not say a change is good just because another game uses that sort of function.
Just as one singular example for this, Splatoon does not have matches that hinge almost entirely on the state of your team's medic, and I don't believe it has really any sort of pick-based impact dichotomy like TF2 does. The laser change ultra buffs the hell out of medic's survivability, and this alone as a single factor should be enough for it to be understood that this sort of change is not healthy for a game like TF2, even if it is in Splatoon.
Ironically, I believe this would make sniper even more dangerous in his area of expertise : Area denial.
With a now entirely visible threat, you will be less inclined to go in, at a moment when the team NEEDS you on the objective in the last crucial seconds. And if you do, you will be so busy trying to avoid the threat you can see, that you will neglect the others, such as a demoman shooting at you from a corner, or the sound of a spy de-cloaking.
This would contribute to make the sniper even better as his job.
Yeah but we’re also mean that he’d be more balanced because instead of being powerful and still think he would just be powerful
The problem with sniper has always been the point of visibility. Unless he's wearing an unusual are a really gaudy cosmetic, you might be looking at him but not realise it because of how far away he is. While a crude method of fixing this problem, the beam does work though I've also thought about giving his aiming laser some kind of glare to make his location obvious the moment he scopes in since I think a whole beam makes it far too easy to manually dodge around his bullets.
That's called scope glint, games like call of duty added it for the same reason of Snipers being too hidden in plain sight. I agree it would be be the more moderate compromise between this giant beam and current vanilla TF2.
The laser seems fine to me, just make it so it only appears when he's scoped. Although I think a bigger problem sniper has is being able to do quickly kill yoy without even needing to be scoped first. So if rather the scope in speed be nerfed instead of a laser being add.
I've had the glare idea independently myself, I didn't realize it was already in some games.
I think a combination would definitely be best. The laser only shows up when scoped, and if the beam is on or near you, you get a sort of lens flare glow on whatever side it's touching you (similar to the damage indicator in some games). If the sniper is on screen when aiming at you, there's flickering red spot over them so you can immediately identify where they are. Maybe even play a high pitched "light" noise when you're touched. It should give you every opportunity to get out of the way so that it's your fault if you die.
The major complaints against snipers in every game are the same. They can instantly kill you from almost anywhere in the map, and can be basically invisible and untouchable just from how far away they are. It puts all the responsibility for your death onto the attacker, because you can't react like you could to machine gun damage for instance, where you can take damage and run away to avoid dying.
Not seeing the sniper is a skill issue. TF2's artstyle makes it incredibly easy to not only notice a player but know that player is a sniper at a single glance, unless he's concealed entirely by foliage (which means he can't see either).
Yeah Halo Infinite took the sniper glare approach as well, and it's _astonishing_ how much less frustrating it is to fight snipers in Infinite compared to previous Halo games specifically because of that change.
This change would make the huntsman next to unusable since you would always know where the arrow would end up once it was fired at you, meaning that it'd be difficult not to dodge it. I don't think it'd be hard to apply this only to the sniper rifles though
i think that would also mean that snipers would use the huntsman as a mixup if they don't want to be seen as easily
Huntsman Sniper is the "balanced" version of Sniper :
You are forced to play from mid to close-range in order to be effective, putting you at the same risk as other classes. You have to commit to a charge in order to effectively deal damage, uncharged shots are still possible but requires you to stand in breathing distance if you wanna land them. You have a reduced ammo pool. Your projectile can actually be DODGED and you also have a much longer reload time compared to sniper rifles.
What’s interesting is that, Splatoon’s sniper weapons do have a laser when players charge their shot, which basically gives you the same elements you can see in the experiment here
Also the Binary Rifle from Halo. It's capable of a one-hit kill even with a body shot, but to balance it has low accuracy when hipfired, and upon zooming in it projects a pair of distinct orange beams indicating where it's going to fire.
splatoon snipers were always the sweet spot for me
It's interesting to see that Demo is now effectively a counter class to sniper, since knowing map geometry will often allow you to know where a sniper is just by seeing the laser, and then understanding everywhere the sniper _can't_ be so as to hit him around corners.
finally
the same counter for sentries, an area denial with the same function as the sniper, it doesn't sounds bad.
Yeah, you are right, and thats a problem, demo is also one of the strongest classes in the game, can engage any fight with the right weapon, is a engi counter, sticky traps and spam, and then he also can kill sniper with the granade launcher just having a basic knowledge of the map and granade falling arc. Nerfing one of the best class to directly buff another dont seems like a good solution to me
@@WeeabooPocky but it was mentioned specifically in the video that sniper has to constantly move to actually do anything now, kinda removing his ability to act as a area denial tool, sentries can do what they do despite being big flashing signs because they have 216 health and a constant stream of healing, their of which sniper can do
in an actual implementation i could see the sniper laser beam's visibility scaling with how charged your shot is
I really like that, but it still should be kinda visible at 0%
@@realdragon yes
@@realdragon no.
The issue with shounic's laser is that its a sourcemod plugin - a hackjob basically. Valve implementing this would be able to perfectly transfer the MvM laser onto the Sniper Rifle in PvP.
But why? That would defeat the entire purpose of knowing where he's looking, because he doesn't have to stay scoped in to do 150 damage in an instant, that's only for the 450 damage or the 150 bodyshot.
These gameplay experiments are some of the most interesting tf2 content I've seen in the past few years, keep it up
This reminds me of a change that was made to Ace of Spades. The Sniper class originally had no Laser which allowed them to hide in corners or far away places and hit you from max render distance. The change they made was to add a Laser when the sniper was Aiming down site. Though they were still extremely dominant, you at least knew where they were before they quick scoped you from existance.
I feel that something like this would be a good addition.
It’s a little ridiculous that everyone can always see exactly where the sniper is looking, so having the beam present only while scoped-in would be better. Then perhaps increasing scope-in-time by a little to give people time to react. I also saw someone mention having the laser’s intensity increase as the charge increases, and I agree.
Only when scoped in would significantly increase the use of the Classic
If it were only when scoped in, it wouldn't change much, snipers don't have to scope in all the time to be effective
@@sshuckle they kind of do because they can't oneshot a lot of the classes without a full charge. Honestly i'd just make it so the no charge headshot can't one shot any classes except like kunai spy. have it like like 0.5 seconds for it to do the 125
@@axmoylotlonly being able two OHKO kunai spies means only 75 ish damage, which becomes pretty garbage with taking out priority targets or killing a target in mid range. Light classes need 2 quickscopes, medics pyros soldiers and demos take 3, and heavy needs 4 (though this 1 isn’t as important). You also can’t even save your teammates from getting picked off since the time between shots or the charge time is slower than they can kill your medic. Personally I think 120 damage is the sweet spot, which puts his ttk on par with every other class
As a Sniper main,I approve this idea,although I think that the laser could make look slightly less visible and only appear when you scoping
lol i scope and get score in less than sec so they still has no chance to react
@@ukaszzib3819Slow down the scope-in and reload animations, maybe add on the reverse damage falloff that the Crossbow has, thereby reducing the Sniper's ability to fight at close range.
@@ukaszzib3819yeah but the other team members might have seen your beam and know you are there
@@Myranos if u shoot there is no beam only 2 sniper rilfes has it , so....
laser dot is visible but i can hide it
As much as I don't like the pyro, I have to agree when you really look back on it, Sniper has to be the most hated.
It's especially unfair on very open maps where some sniper hidden somewhere can just pick people off and no one can do anything about it. Pyro gives you a fighting chance at least.
Agree with you there. Sometimes it feels like you have to play the hardest game of "Where's Waldo" to see the 5 visible pixels of a sniper's head to see if you can react in time.
Pyro really only gets shit because his skill floor is very low, the problem with sniper is that his skill ceiling is too high
people tend to over-rate the 'W+M1" tactic. More often than not if you try to do that as Pyro you get destroyed by competent players.
The problem with Sniper is that he gives an almost zero time to react, which is something the other classes have.
"very open maps" * COUGH * * COUGH * wutville * COUGH *
One idea I had is to take an idea from Modern Warfare and make it so that the sniper when zoomed in has a very visible glint so if there's a sniper scoping down on you, you can see him a hell of a lot more easily
Definitely know that some of the folks of the gmod ArcCW sweps have that implemented in the Swep Base, but it’s somewhat crudely done, but that might be because of the limitations of the source engine. Still, I would like to see that tested.
scope glint doesn't really work out on the tf2 sniper. sniper's biggest problem isn't necessarily long range play, it's that he can quickscope faster than a person can blink, yes, blink.
the laser solution is practically the only solution to the quickscope problem other than making quickscope unusable.
the sniper in question putting his crosshair on a wall so you can't see his beam
Maybe a good compromise would be to make it so the line only appears when the sniper is scoped in, and dissapears when they aren't.
It would make it a bit easier for the sniper, while still making it clear to the opponent when they really need to watch out.
It would give unscoped shots more of a use.
You could argue that it just encourages snipers to quickscope all the time, but those are way harder, so it feels more right to me to reward them for that.
Buffs the classic
Some games add a glint to sniper rifle scopes so that sniper's victims get a warning.
I'd argue that the laser fading in to become more visible depending on the charge on top of being turned on only when scoped in would make it a little more fair for both the sniper and the class they are fighting since that way everyone can tell how much damage the sniper can output (even when the beam is barely visible the instance you scope in) and where the sniper is
@@redstonebits4362 you could just give it laser while unscoped, like it's supposed to be.
as a skilled/sweaty sniper I think it's better to keep the laser on even if it's not scoped cuz it's really easy to quick scope enemies rather close range or long range
Sniper can be op if its played by good player but also can be countered easily by good playing Soldier/Demo/Spy/Scout/Pyro
Basically any class can counter any class if its played well
Heck I even wiped 5 people as Medic with
Uber + Uber saw Switch Hit combo
People have suggested only turning on the beam when scoped, which is a nice idea, but quickscoping is generally the most effective way to play Sniper already, so you wouldn't get much of a warning anyway.
One way to deal with this would be to lengthen the amount of time before you can headshot after scoping in (currently 0.2s), to give a target an actual chance to see the laser and try to evade before 150 damage comes their way.
How often have you actually been quick scoped
@@vyor8837 pretty much 40% of all the times i got shot by a sniper
I'd like it if the headshot scope delay was removed entirely and instead a scope in speed was added. Something like 0.75 seconds at most.
Maybe a better solution would be to have the beam to turn on when you have the rifle while deployed, and then giving the rifles a slower switch speed, in that way the beam would remain as a warning.
Oh. The Zesty Jesus point.
My primary issue with it is that it only looks at the reaction time the target needs to identify the Sniper and excludes the reaction time the Sniper needs to identify the target and flick, assuming they don't use walls and perfect tracking hacks. In my own testing it makes the real reaction time you need somewhere between a half and a full second, just from the variance in the flick you need. That and it makes Sniper play at longer ranges and pre scope, since its less risky due to his reaction time being effectively slower, which is what makes him imbalanced in the first place.
Snipers should be made to play closer to their team, that way the DPS classes can actually get on him quickly and Soldier/Demo don't need to bring themselves
theres a pretty decent roblox tf2 recreation that actually recently made this a thing
3:11 is there actually no clip of gabe saying sniper
No
I'd never thought that such a complex issue could be solved with such a simple solution. it doesn't outright nerf the sniper, but instead just makes it easier for everyone else to deal with him.
sounds like an out right nerf to me when literally the entire point of the sniper is to be OP
@@psychosomatiqueofficial the point of the sniper is to pick off important targets at a distance, switching positions and strategizing so people don't avoid you, not to be overpowered. if that wasn't the case, we might as well just make non-scoped bodyshots do 600 damage no matter what
Well. It nerfs charged shots.
Quickscopes would remain unchanged pretty much no matter what you do to the laser.
not really a "fix"
@@masterowl123 best we can do when valve can't be assed to balance the game and rework a problematic, broken class
With a more polished laser that only shows when scoped in, that's a great balance idea.
This looks like the type of thing that you see in the Splatoon franchise, where the sniper class weapons (or "chargers" as they're called) have this line coming out of the weapon when the weapon is charging/fully charged, and the distance of the line depends on the maximum range of the sniper. This means that people can see wherever the sniper is aiming and therefore have a chance at avoiding it.
What if Valve actually updated the Sniper, or the game at all?
You're asking too much 🥶
I feel like a good idea is for the laser to show up only when zoomed in. Having a giant beacon for the enemy team basically saying, “THE CLASS THAT IS THE BIGGEST THREAT AND SUCKS AT CLOSE RANGE IS RIGHT HERE!” Using it for when they are only zoomed in will encourage sniper players to not spend the entire match scoped in or move their location frequently while still having that interaction between classes. I love the idea of the laser but it adds to all the visual mess of tf2. Rocket jumping soldiers, pyro flames, projectiles flying everywhere, constant checking your back for spies, trying to gun down the enemy scout and a constant beam from both your sniper and the enemy sniper can be very overwhelming. I would say remove the sightline of your teams sniper altogether and only have the sightline on an enmey sniper when they are scoped in.
Sniper bots with beams gonna make TF2 look like a laser light show
I think it's a pretty good solution for snipers, but as stated in the video: it obviously gives a pretty big disadvantage towards the sniper, since anybody could see the line and know exactly where you are, so it encourages snipers to move rather than stay in one spot.
HOWEVER, this is not always exactly possible on some maps like in CTF and KOTH game modes, where usually sniper sightlines are very limited.
If the sightlines are limited, then paths to those sightlines must also be limited.
This implementation is flawed because it's always 100% opaque no matter what and regardless of being scoped out or in. I don't know why shounic seemingly rushed this video out because I feel like he and the playtesters should have thought of this after the test.
@@ImGonnaFudgeThatFish I think the opaque-ness is not intentional, he's using the wrangler laser as a placeholder, I'm sure if this was an official implementation it would be much more transparent and only show when scoping in. Coding/Modding TF2 is very hard thanks to source spaghetti so him taking a shortcut like this just for a test is pretty excusable.
A fangame called Typical Colors 2 on Roblox did something really similar, but made it so that it’s only when the Marksman, its Sniper alternative, is scoped in, and I really enjoy it.
Why would you play a roblox knockoff of a free to play game, cringe
@@techtheuwumaster9177 aside from the fact that I don’t have a computer, the game is genuinely really well made and introduces a ton of really cool concepts and new weapons. Cringe culture is dead, and I’m actively pissing on its grave.
@thelagnificentleader Then get a cheap computer, anything is better than roblox. All roblox is is bad remakes of other games
To be fair, Sniper would probably be less hated if it wasn’t for the bots.
A good sniper is even more game ruining than a bot because he has gamesense.
@@theasianthatsbetterthanyou8324 just not true is it
@@theasianthatsbetterthanyou8324 meanwhile a bot has near perfect accuracy, comes in swarms, spam vc and test, steal players pfps and usernames and try to kick real people from the server.
Which one would you prefer? A good sniper or 5 to 6 bots?
@@theasianthatsbetterthanyou8324 I do find getting killed by a sniper who is just a headshot god at the game annoying, but I’d prefer to deal with that instead of a bunch of code specifically intended to ruin the game.
I feel like maybe the beam could get more visible the more you charge your shot.
Example: if you just started scoping in, it would be transparent. Then when its at half, it becomes easily visible. Finally, when its fully scoped it would even emit a little light too. Idk, just a thought. Also make the Sniper beams only visible when they're scoping. Last thing, maybe it could flicker like a broken light occasionally, so Snipers can still fool others into thinking they weren't scoping.
Invert, encourage actually charging shots instead of quickscope spam.
@@youtubeuniversity3638 no.
“Respect the sightline”
Sure, I’ll respect what I CAN’T EVEN DETERMINE!!!
The laser's an important game design addition for visibility, a huge step in the right direction, just implemented poorly currently and in need of refinement for this idea.
Suggestions:
- lasers only on the Sniper's rifles and not the Huntsman
- laser beam only appears while scoping in (or while charging for the Classic)
- the Sniper's default laser dot is visible while the rifle is active
- the Sniper's default laser dot will blink more solid and a bit wider when he scopes in, the same duration of the delay before he can score headshots (or continuously blink for when the Classic can headshot)
- the laser beam becomes increasingly visible the longer the sniper's scoped, in line with his charge, but without completely blocking player vision. This will be difficult to balance, making the difference subtle yet informative enough, but it's possible
- the dot, when placed on a target's head hitbox, even with a glancing pass, will cause a warning indicator like a damage indicator to flash in the direction of the Sniper, and the class being aimed at will shout their Sniper presence warnings from MvM
This should give even the least aware player enough warning stimuli to take action and get evasive, while, also, being logically consistent and more refined. The Sniper can still just keep his laser next to a choke or sightline (2fort balcony) he's holding and flick to targets that enter his sight, but that demands a bit more skill than planting aim into the actual choke or sighline.
And make the Heatmaker's Focus active period more visible from just the Machina tracers. Maybe make the laser become the Machina tracer while it's active, and the laser dot Crits spark. Furthermore, a Crit-boosted Sniper Rifle's laser dot should spark, too, just the two statuses need to be distinct
All of this!
And I really like the idea of automatic sniper callouts when the sniper dot glances across someone's head.
i think it should actually fade out witch charge. the general idea of the nerf-sniper community is to encourage good positioning.
Maybe when you aim, the laser on the sniper rifle could be activated, emitting a thin, light line instead of the red bar you used. It would make aiming down sight-lines useless, which means they would have to aim in quickly to effectively use the sight line. Just an idea.
Denying routes as a sniper is very useful by itself even without actually killing people.
@@Steir12 yes, but it does reveal your location, making you an easy target to someone flanking you.
The point is to give the sniper a risk for pointing their gun out. They could still hide the laser by looking at the floor.
@@TheProAtPUBG ..Literally no? Snipers are in the backlines, either behind the team or at most within a group of teammates. And if there's a sentry in the path "Flanking" literally isn't an option. If it was so easy to flank Sniper if you knew where he was then Sniper wouldn't be known for being so broken.
@@Game-ne5nb flank better, stop whining.
if this was an actually thing all servers would become a rave show
I think "the sniper has to be more aware of his positioning." Is a severe understatement. He is effectively revealed to the entire map at all times. A better idea imo would be tracer rounds, so he only reveals his position after taking a shot, improving his consistency but still forcing him to move every now and then.
This was the equivalent of giving spy a big fucking bubble on top of their head that says "IM GOING TO BSCKSTAB SOMEONE HONHONHON" even while cloaked or disguised
It only benefits players that aren't Swipez1 wannabes
That literally solved nothing, the fucking machina has it and it's still broken , it doesn't matter and it doesn't change the way you engage with him , it's still one sided
@@literallyvergil1686 obviously it's not a perfect change, you could make other tweaks. I'm just saying that constantly revealing the exact position of a light class with no movement is a terrible idea.
@@literallyvergil1686 no lmao
@@undrcovrmallard1463 I agree just have the line when he's scoping in and as other suggest it becomes clearer the higher the charge is
100% something that I think needs to be added to the base game whenever a sniper is scoped in, so basically just make the Sniper into the MvM Sniperbots. Between this and a small delay between scoping-in and being able to headshot so the sniper can't skip the laser by simply quickscoping you, I think Sniper would be far better and no longer a complete annoyance. I always felt like Sniper's damage potential and safety from getting killed easily needed to come with something that alerted you to his presence, and this does it.
Sniper is definitely too OP, coming from a Sniper main (I mention since I'm trying to show you I ain't in arrogance saying he's balanced). I would actually prefer it also if his base headshot critical damage didn't 1 shot half of the mercs as well, way too over powered. Sniper is suppose to be support, not flat out deny an entire team if you are so good playing him.
His role should still be giving massive damage to the enemy so your team can finish them easier, but damn it his initial damage should not be capable of taking out half the classes without ovwrheal.
Dare I say, a fully charged shot should be capable of only doing 200-225 damage. Because now at least quickscoping won't be an issue anymore, now all Snipers have to actually aim & wait to kill most classes in 1 shot, & the Heavy class (any really) definitely gets more room to breathe. And now Sniper won't be the "better Spy," Spy will be the only one capable of killing anyone at any HP in one blow in a quick session with chain stabs. (compared to quickscope after quickscope)
I was thinking maybe eliminate headshots under 50%charge
@@Paycheck777 Sniper being able to kill most of the classes with a headshot is fine as long as it takes a little while to do it, but right now it really doesn't since he can do it so quickly. I wouldn't say sniper is a support class either, that may be what he's called in the menu but it definetly isnt accurate.
Gonna be honest, the idea of the laser only being active while the sniper is scoped doesn't stop the sniper from just waiting unscoped until people approach his sightline where the laser's impact is much less.
Here is a pitch, makes the draw speed of the sniper rifle longer and make the laser show when the rifle is out. You can still be stealthy with sniper while vulnerable until you want to have a impact where your laser will immediately notify of your location, creating a dodgable death.
Just me though.
“ WHERES THE DEFENSE? “
“I AM THE DEFENSE “
Me when I, as Spy, am the only one defending the intel.
I think this is an interesting and potentially good change, but I think the bigger issue is simply the ability to get a free 150 at any range on any class. Sniper either needs a longer wait period before being able to headshot after scoping in, or to do less base damage (say, 120), forcing the sniper to wait and charge up a shot to guarantee kills on most classes, leaving him vulnerable and giving him an actual weakness.
Overwatch's Widowmaker does just this. When you scope, it charges up from like 50 to 150 damage in around a second, and resets when you fire. This basically prevents quickscoping entirely.
"free" is a very big word here, since it really isn't free. This laser as is would definitely be an over-nerf, but something like a glint that appears when he is scoped or maybe the laser only appears while he is scoped would be good enough to calm people down.
@@benander6017 The problem is that sniper's only skill ceiling is how well players can aim. And, as much as you might hate to admit it, some players aim on a near-aimbot level.
As stated in the video rather gracefully; the only real "counter" is to simply not even get in a sniper's line of sight to begin with. And at that point, sniper has a ridiculous amount of power to block any path or route he wants. It's blatantly obvious that sniper is broken, and yes, he can absolutely get "free" 150 headshots.
@@TheGeekRex Overwatch's main feature in this regard is that it features large shields, with lots of health and no head critbox, which are a direct counter to high-burst, low-DPS snipers.
@@curlybrace4984 Did you just say that the class deserves to get gutted, because some players have good aim?
This is my favorite sniper rebalence idea because it actually forces people to learn to play against a sniper and not just complain that the long range class killed them at long range (also I belive the beam should only be visible while the rifle is active and ofc originate from the barrel of the rifle not give sniper lazer eyes, but thats kind of self explanitory)
although being able to see where the sniper is sounds quite powerful, it still has to be powerful. Something about have a lasee pointed directly at you is kinda spooky and something you have to respect.
Yeah, I think that really is one of the bigger problems with Sniper; he just lacks really any audiovisual cues...which feels like a blind spot on Valve's part considering how every other class has more stuff that alerts you of their presence
Sniper in theory:
GabeN: "Sniper counters Heavy and other Snipers."
Sniper in practice:
*Counters any class with a head.*
In Robocraft the sniper laser is very important to also give a sense of tension while scouting a part of the map in search of enemies (other than the fact that a Railgun shot can disassemble your robot in seconds with a well placed shot) but the laser is only visible when scoping
One solution to not remove the importance of good positioning from the class would be to make the "beam" a nearly invisible refraction of light (like the way light warps on a hot sidewalk.)
So if you round a corner and notice the air in from of you is bending weirdly, then a Sniper must be scoped in. If you aren't paying attention, then you'll probably miss it.
This puts Sniper closer in line with Spy, where the trick is to come at a direction/time that players have their guard down, while discouraging using the same spot over and over.
I'm pretty sure the spies cloak works that way in team fortress classic... Or was that fortress forever
I think making the tracer as visible as invisible spies wont help since its a much smaller thing thsn the full body model
Now hear me out, what if sniper was simply removed
i really liked this. i’m a bit surprised you didn’t bring up that robot snipers have a laser showing where they’re looking while scoped. in mvm this is an amazing feature because you can figure out where you’re getting shot from while you’re otherwise focused on the other robots. i like seeing it in actual gameplay as it really balances sniper out
I feel like it would be beneficial if the line of sight beam would only be visible when the sniper is scoped in. That way the sniper can both position themselves in an area but also be telegraphed to where they are when scoped in.
Also you should remove the beam for the bows and the Sydney sleeper.
The bows since sniper is reduced to a mid range class
And the Sydney sleeper because it's a more support oriented weapon that can't crit headshot.
Honestly just having the sniper dot be a solid laser would be the perfect solution. I mean, TF2 is in the late 1960s and early 70s, laser sights were first marketed in 1979, so obviously the laser sight Sniper has would have to be thick enough to see with the naked eye. So making Sniper's entire laser visible would be both good game design and historically accurate.
I would personally turn down the opacity on the lazer a little and make it so the beam is only there when he's aiming to make the beam less obnoxious, more reasonable for a shooter, and to give the sniper a bit more of an edge.
Making it "less obnoxious" defeats the entire purpose. It's like saying übers shouldn't be as bright to make them less obnoxious. No, powerful things need to be obnoxious. The wrangler isn't half as dangerous as a sniper, yet it has a bright laser all the time.
@@Hedning1390 the laser isn't there when the sentry isn't being wrangled, so why should a sniper's laser be there when he's not aiming? why should it be there when he has his mele out? it'l just look silly having a laser pointing wherever your team's sniper is looking all the damn time.
@@vidiottheowl2825 The difference is the sniper can do his 150 damage instantly aiming for a shorter time than what can be perceived by his target while the sentry can only do that damage over a period of time especially at the ranges where the wrangler might be used.
You could argue that it shouldn't be there when the melee is out. That's fair but this was just a quick and dirty mod. I'm not arguing for the beam to be there with the melee active.
Honestly this is brilliant because it also indirectly makes spy a better pock in certain situations, where before there was basically no situation the sniper couldn't do better.
Hoesntly spy has his own entirly different and opposite set of problems. Like seriously spys problem is that he is TOO counterable.
@@GiRR007 all he really needs is a slight speed buff and maybe some extra health
@@AbyssalOzen Speed buffs on spy arent as effective compared to other classes since his disguise makes his speed match that of who he's disguised as. As far as health goes that one can be a bit dangerous as it leans closer to becoming combat class. I'd rather his unique abilities be buffed instead like his cloak and disguise.
@@GiRR007 135 HP. Kunai gets -65 hp Big earner gets -35 hp (earner would be basically a direct upgrade if it kept -25)
@@twin_towers_destroyer instead of giving him more health I would prefer to move the damage reduction on his cloak to his disguises.
"Sniper players reported scoping down a doorway and waiting for people to show up wasn't viable"
Man, I can't just stare at a chokepoint and get headshots?
I feel instead of a laser maybe a scope glare/glint similar to the battlefield games could be implemented to tell you when a sniper is aiming at you and where he is. Afterall the sniper emits a laser from his scope so you should be able to tell from the laser glare if he's aiming at your head. This way the player will be notified if a sniper has their attention on you without making the sniper's job more difficult. Although this won't tell you if a sniper is around the corner but with enough reflex maybe you could avoid them and get back behind cover.
Halo has the glare shit and it makes it real easy to tell if someone’s got a sniper, but its a massive fucking blinding light so its hard to fight back cus you cant fucking see them. I think the laser is a better idea
It is too late at that point, if you're being told he is aiming at you when he is already aiming at you... then it only helps if the sniper is bad.
I feel like sniper needs to have his ability to go from unscoped to killing you within a fraction of a second removed. Like maybe speed up the reload but make it so you can’t do 150 damage for about a second when you scope in, it would make shooting you point blank way more difficult because the sniper has to be almost still while aiming, and while it wouldn’t stop snipers from just staying scoped the entire time, at least now you know that they either have reduced vision or can’t kill you for a second when you peak.
what if i told you that mechanic already exists?
You need to not peak those locations. The laser is a great solution (granted it should only exist when the sniper is scoped in) without damaging the entire purpose of the class. Sounds cheesy, but most people's problem with sniper is almost purely a skill / map awareness issue.
@@benander6017 yeah but with how common sniper as a class is and how often they scope in, visually it would look weird to constantly see super long lasers shooting from that random Gibus sniper’s eyes, with the wrangler it’s a situational unlock, but sniper’s main ability is scoping in so the visual noise would be a bit distracting.
Easily solved by reducing the damage, making headshots require a full charge (or partial charge), or by just removing sniper.
Sniper is not a tf2 class; he doesn't play by any of the same rules every other class does, and the biggest counter is countered by sniper having the best support item (jarate).
@@WaterZer0 Sniper vs Spy feels like the matchup that was thrown in by mistake into the game objective formula that defines TF2
All other classes add to the push or defend effort with manpower, Sniper and Spy add to the risk factor with backstabs and random headshots
They are like player manned enviromental hazards, like a death pit that's gunning for you
I feel like this raises sniper's skill floor. I'll bet the random hobos you found for this experiment already know how to play sniper, at the very least have a basic understanding of how he works. If you were a noob with sniper or just completely new to TF2 in general, trying to play sniper would be incredibly hard and frustrating. Not only can you never hit anyone, they also seem to know exactly where you are all the time.
I think the beam should be invisible near the Sniper, and gradually become brighter as it goes, because while being able to see where a sniper is balances it, being able to perfectly see where it can aim and being able to "dodge" the shots at close range seems OP.
sniper shouldn't be at close range anyways, i think it'd just make people think about their positioning more
i prefer the idea other people had where the beam is transparent or very hard to see and it gets easier to see the more charged the shot is
This remind me the snipers from Payday 2 that and the turrets are the only enemies that have laser to indicate their position and targets (players).
It's very helpful at large maps to pick them first before escaping from a swarm of enemies.
Payday 2 is also a PvE game where you are supposed to have the advantage against the tide of mobs. It works well because it gives the group that's "supposed to win" the advantage and you normally can't get to the spots that the snipers occupy at all in that game. I don't really think it's a fair comparison.
@@1313hman snipers one shot you from where you can't even deal damage, depending on what weapon you're carrying and what map you're in on both of those games. if you ever played high difficulty pd2 you'd know how terrifying those guys are. it'd be ridiculous to play without the laser, as tf2 sniper currently is.
@@JoaoPedro-ps8lk and what's the problem with that? Are you saying that no matter what weapons you pick and no matter where they are, you should be able to deal with them like anyone else? What's even the point of different load outs then.
Payday rant aside, TF2 snipers don't (at least not as intended in PvP) have aim bot, and can miss their shots, it takes skill to be oppressive, and even then the most skilled snipers aren't as oppressive as the most skilled rocket jumping soldiers.
@@1313hman I agree, assign beams to the sniper makes this class unfun to play since you're already weak at close range, people will focus you more and requires skill to quick scope. Being at close range for a sniper is already a huge disadvantage for him. I would say something about the sniper weapons, like the bargain and Machina.
@@yuukiyoshizawa7007 > Weak at close range
I keep seeing this shit everywhere. Do people forget that sniper can do exactly the same amount of damage up close? Do people forget he has a bottle of AoE minicrits on demand? Do people forget that the AoE minicrits are commonly paired with a weapon that turns minicrits into crits?
Sniper is anything but weak at any range.
An unexpected side effect is that the Machina got buffed
Make this into a mod people can download, especially if you can have settings for like "beam all the time" "beam only when scoped" "beam only when un-scoped" (this adds some "which works best" variance) and a distance you have to be away from the sniper for the beam to render for you (so if you're in short/melee range you have to go by other cues).
I love how this allows interaction with the Sniper at long distance. Would really enjoy playing with this change
I feel like the beam should be slightly more transparent so it's like a haze and only if aiming. If you pay attention it's there but not if you don't.
This change was recently added to roblox tf2 version and its really good.
0:58
this is way too funny why isn't this getting more credit
Team fortress 2 update:
Now added a sight of beam when scoping in a sniper rifle.
While scoping on a enemy's head for a while the enemy gets blinded by the beam.
thats actually really interesting. i love gameplay experiments like this, where you toy with the rules and let what is effectively darwinian evolution develop new strategies and metas on the spot.
This makes sense. It forces sniper players to be better, rather than just standing still. It also forces better positioning and movement since you can't just stay in one place anymore either, otherwise you're gonna get a whole number of people up your ass, all the time.
Thematically it makes no sense to why a sniper's job isn't to hold a single area with their scope but then again this is the TF2 universe where rocket jumping is a thing so I think I'll be fine with that change
@@TerminaBroTheFirst yeah, it does nothing sensically. Its also a giant goofy laser comin' outta the sniper's nose. Its just for balance's sake
but snipers role is as a area denial tool, your not a scout, your job isn't to get sick frags. its to lock down chokepoints, your a sentry gun
@@eylore3934 the problem becomes, the sentry is a lot louder and easier to pick up on. A sniper is near invisible behind everything else going on half the time. If anything, this makes him do his job better.
@@theGrassMan0305 sentry guns also have 216 hp and more healing than a medic coming their way
I like the concept, but I think it could use a little bit of fine-tuning if you actually wanted to legitimately consider this design change, since in its current state it makes sniper’s traditional weaknesses a lot less reliable, while also changing his strengths. For example, you can’t rely on capitalizing on the Sniper’s tunnel vision with the laser in play since hard-scoping an angle simply isn’t viable in the first place, and instead forces Sniper into this quickscope-hungry duelist playstyle which (while super cool) probably isn’t ideal for the class’ theming. Here’s a couple things I’d consider - I wouldn’t necessarily add them all but they’re all potentially interesting:
- Making Sniper’s trail only visible if he’s scoped in for a certain amount of time (this would also make the Classic and Huntsman exempt from the change, which would be on model for huntsman’s design and a neat little buff to the Classic)
- Combining the change with a slight increase in time before you can shoot after scoping in (This change alone is generally decent since it stops Sniper from point-blank quickscoping as easily, but in conjunction with the laser might just kill the class so there’s a sweet spot to hunt for here)
- Make Sniper’s charge time faster (this would make scoping for medium amounts of time generally optimal, and can also make his matchup with light classes like scout very interesting since he can dodge the shots easily but risks dying in 1 hit more often)
- Add a little more knockback or a slight slow to Sniper’s bullets (this one’s a bit of an oddball, it offers the potential of giving Sniper more of a general support role since it could make locking down picks easier in conjunction with the team, but threatens to make the class potentially even more toxic than he was before since stun mechanics are frowned upon in TF2)
This is the best sniper balance video i've ever seen. (Except the video about removing sniper)