That is a wonderful observation. My head was groping for what I loved in this scene and why it generated so much more satisfaction than a contemporary film. You answered my confusion.
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Nothing was above "good acting" and verbal dialogue back then... A lot movies made today are of no substance... Today, you have an array of actors, with very little talent... Then in Hollywood, you had to have talent... Now, it's just about being marketable... This takes a level of intelligence to understand and appreciate today.
The insult of "Greek" leveled at the guy was fun, because it was in Greece that the last bastion of the Roman Empire lasted for about 1000 years after the fall of Rome itself. They considered themselves Romans, because their institutions were in lineage from Rome. Great movie though!
Rome was influenced by their Neighbors the mighty Etruscans and everything else fell into place, and the Roman Senate is founded by Rome not Greeks. But regardless ROME & ATHENS were two great civilizations the western world as ever known period.
@SSJ That's not what you unitially said!!!! You said that "the Romans saw the Greeks as degenerates", meanwhile Rome was tremendously intertwined with Greek civilization.
I love these old movies. These are the days when actors were legit, professional and didn't care about looking good for the camera, they simply wanted to nail their part no matter how big or small. You feel like you're watching a stage play, not a movie.
Seems like all you guys are watching pretty shit movies. Just google Daniel day Lewis or Frances Mcdormand and start watching. You’ll change your mind if you’re actually open minded
Alexander never really had the opportunity to consolidate his "Empire" as such; and whilst we can call it that on paper. In actuality it would make more sense to call it his "realm" and the lands beyond Hellas as being mere "Conquests". Short of the establishment of over a dozen "Alexandrias" across his realm, and encouraging instances of Hellenisation throughout Asia Minor and Syria (which were already in part underway), the Empire wasn't nearly cohesive enough, nor did it possess the bureaucratic and political infrastructure to hold it together. Despite the best efforts of Perdikkas and Antipater, it was simply an impossible task to keep it together with Alexander's untimely death and the huge swaths of territory he subjugated, it was essentially an Empire in size and name only.
This film has a very interesting history. It was film entirely in Spain. And the scenes were done in actual Roman towns,the rest in studios in Madrid and Rome. This is close to historical accuracy. This is truly a well crafted film; from directing,writing,acting, and editing. No 21 century film can compare too this work. There is amount cgi or any computer simulation can produce this quality. Thank you for sharing this beautiful vignette.
The movie compresses a number of events but captures a true sense of how Rome's power and grandeur deteriorated. Bidding for the Imperium actually did take place at one point during the Year of the Four Emperors, and famine and plague struck during the time known as the Crisis of the Third Century, which post-dated the misrule of Commodus. But in how The Fall Of The Roman Empire depicts the dynamic of the slow Roman collapse, the forces that eroded the strength and morale of the Empire, is where it really shines. The movie's coda summed it up: "No great civilisation is conquered from without, until it has destroyed itself from within".
The "rights to all thing" in this was a product of the time the film was written. 1964 was the same year the Civil Rights Act was passed in the U.S. (this is an American film). The lead writer of the film was a Jewish Canadian who was blacklisted during McCarthyism for he and his wife's Communist affiliations. Citizenship to all was something Emperor Caracalla passed 30 years after the events of this scene, and Roman historian Cassius Dio asserts this was done to expand the tax base of eligible citizens. Another reason might have been to expand the recruitment pool of eligible draftees into the Legions. Unfortunately that wound up reducing the appeal of the Auxiliaries, non-citizen soldiers who would enlist to seek citizenship as a reward for service; citizenship came with legal protections that subject/auxiliary status didn't have and so it provided an attractive incentive for willing service. Uniform citizenship also blurred the legal distinction between the Italian "core" of the Empire and the auxiliary provincials. All were subject to the same laws now, and over time the centralness of Italia shifted away. This film also directly inspired Ridley Scott's 'Gladiator' 36 years later. The overall plot is almost beat for beat identical, right down to the final duel between Commodus and the fictional protagonist. In this one, Commodus is killed in the Forum instead of the Arena, but it still pre-kills him about 12 years before his real historical death (he was sole Emperor for 12 years). There's also a scene involving the fictional Timonides (the Greek ex-slave in this scene) holding his hand in a flame without crying out to prove his bravery; it's a direct lift from the tale of Gaius Scaevola doing the same when he was captured by the Etruscan Clusium King.
and the senator with the hooked nose at the end giving the open the gate and embrace the hordes speech, certainly ahead of it's time in self awareness of the situation.
@@crimsonthumos3905 It is pretty humorous. Mass immigration is not a good thing, I don't understand how people still can't see it. Even similar groups have great strife, but completely different ones causes untold chaos.
In 7th grade we had the opportunity to see this film for extra credit. I loved it. I always loved history. With Stephen Boyd ( an under rated actor) and the great Christopher Plummer it was a great movie. RIP Stephen Boyd and Christopher Plummer.
I know this is a one year old comment, but I hate to break it to you that this film is completely fiction. From the comments I gather that some elements of the set design were accurate, but the actual story is not even close to anything that happened in Rome. In fact, several of the basic assumptions it makes are flat out wrong. For example, there is a consensus among the senators that slaves produce less than free men. This may be true, but the senators (who were nearly always rich aristocrats) profited immensely off of their slaves. No senator would ever free his slaves without payment. This was true for slavery up until the industrial revolution. It was hugely profitable for those in charge, and so it stuck around. It was not a "peculiar institution" as one of the US founding fathers put it, it was the status quo in every part of the world, even pre-contact Americas. The idea that slavery was wrong was something that came about in the mid 1700s, with the Enlightenment. This film sort of puts a weird, enlightenment spin on things, from what I can tell from this scene. It fails to consider that rulers' philosophy was completely different from our thinking today. That last paragraph was all my knowledge, but if anyone reading this is especially curious, this quora post talks more about why the story, while trying to present a historical narrative, ends up not hitting a bullseye, but instead veering to the right and killing the neighbor's dog. www.quora.com/Is-Edward-Gibbons-The-History-of-the-Decline-and-Fall-of-the-Roman-Empire-historically-accurate
@@milesmartig5603 Yes - such films as this are never to be regarded as true to history, but rather to be valued for their performances (as with Shakespeare histories)
@@gdiwolverinemale2745i totally agree! look at what happened to the Palestinians after they welcomed in jewish European refugees fleeing christian Europe and the na z i s.
@@seanoreiley48 true in the sense of mass immigration. letting in 'the hordes' is never a good thing, as in this case the vandals and visigoths did destroy them. and this is just in the context of europe. i see a rise in right-wing ideology (not necessarily bad within reason) that is definitely geared toward immigration, and the inability of a portion of a population/group to accept and assimilate into another culture, but rather attempt to destroy it. you definitely see this with a portion of muslim immigrants or those from war torn backgrounds that import it to their new country. and again, it just is a pipeline to having severe internal strife.
You said what I was about. And the first part where the senator argues against giving citizenship to “barbarians and savages that go around murdering might seem even more apposite. However, James Masons oratory while well delivered, in today’s context and potentially then is a nice idea, but somewhat unrealistic. Certain problematic people come with hate, which they brought with them and are indoctrinated in and filled with envy and an ideology that believes itself superior and consequently that it must subdue others. As my history of Rome and the barbarians reminds me, the barbarians were not exactly adverse to conquest. And as for the old senator saying we must open the gates more or less and change ourselves, misses the point of the first senator that a viper remains a viper even if you treat it nicely.
@@ljp400 I don't think you know anything about how Rome was "destroyed". Please look at it, it's more interesting than "muslin barbarian bad destroy civilisation"
It was supposed to be Chuck Heston but he turned the role down as he didn't want to work with Sophia Loren again after EL CID. So he recommended his Ben Hur Co-Star Stephen. Steve had as much chemistry with Sophia as Chuck did I think. An amazingly underrated actor.
@Dumitru Frunza So ur saying Titanic, Jurassic Park, Terminator, Frozen, Warcraft, Aladdin,....... all sucks????????? Yet, these movies had earned massive around of money. Seem to me it's just u making fatigue comments around here.
@@Nishkid641 Chill out my friend. Those movies are great. I'm talking about the progressive abuse of CGI as time goes on - movies made in the nineties, compared to those made in the 2000ths, etc. Take the Lord of the Rings series as an example. The early ones had CGI, but on the whole, was OK-ish. The more recent ones, the amount of CGI has increased gradually. If you find that OK - no problem. TH-cam is a big place for everyone's opinions, mine included.
@@dumitrufrunza8136 yeah yeah. I just curious about those fools who keep complaining. My advice for them is that: why don't they join the film industry and change it instead of sitting and just criticizing. But I bet whatever they do, they will meet similar criticism from others.
Sounds good but here's the problem...history notes that when Rome did that, the immigrants would not assimilate. They would not learn the language or break from the customs that were harmful to keep peace. Rome was then destroyed from within. But of course that was only a symptom of the fall. The real fall of Rome was that it refused to accept the one True God but instead followed non-gods. Any nation that does this is only asking for the inevitable. Judgement. We will all reap what we have sewn.
+hots4jc Are you stupid? The Roman empire had been christian for quite some time during its fall (which was one of the reasons why it collapsed in the first place.
hots4jc that was because the Romans asked them to come in. No, they BEGGED them to come in. In their moment of weakness, they asked others to protect them, so they never respected them.
These were the glory days of the real Hollywood. Back then the pictures where HUGE productions. Just look at all the cast and extras in this scene. Imagine the wardrobe, catering , lighting all in a HUGE way to produce such a play like act yet for the camera. And notice the actors did the lines by the page without a cut or edit. They were real professional actors. Not like today. They can’t remember two lines. I love to watch these older moves as well as the black and white movies. They captivate me and demand attention and then you know they have truly done their job well as professionals they were. it’s wonderful that we have these great pictures to be entertained and to take us to a place and time forgotten.
True and as bad as Hollywood becomes because it adapt to the audience. Put those lines in today cinema.. everyone slept ^ ). That's the real horror. Also the same scene apply to today , the burning street of France, inheritance of Roman system still can't master culture integration.
These were actors who had spent years in theatre learning their craft and perfecting their technique . Unlike today where it's straight from Stage school to the screen .! And it shows..!!
Movie takes place in 180 AD. The Western Roman Empire falls almost 300 years later. The Eastern Roman Empire fall about 1,200 years later. Curiously, both empires fell because of Germanic invaders: the Goths for the former, and Frankish Crusaders of the 4th Crusade for the latter.
Saying that is like ignoring all the preexisting health conditions that lead to terminal illnesses. While the Ottomans weakened and ultimately ended the Byzantine Empire, it cannot be ignored that it was the Roman Catholics who fatally backstabbed and fragmented the empire to easily conquerable rump states. Even after the the Byzantines regained their lands from the Latins, they were left militarily and economically crippled. All the Ottomans had to do was pick up the scraps that the Latins left behind.
"There comes a time when the people no longer believe in it. Then, then does an empire begin to die." With the riots going on across America I can't help but feel this is more relevant for some people in the world than ever.
@Peter Rogan personally I think Amerca of all the countries need to be united more than ever being that now it has an evil moving target on its back, the US is supposed to be a living example of democracy but I'm afraid some individuals in power are now destroying the very one thing that makes America outstanding. It is it is in the best interest of the world that America remains the Superpower... I weep for the world.
rencrow one dies another rises. As for best interest ... well we shall see. Only time will tell. But if America falls China becomes the superpower without strong opposition ... and that’s something we all should be afraid of.
@@sarahjames927 Ask yourself... what did China ever do to warrant your prejudice? China didn't initiate any war nor sanction for the past 70 years. How many wars have the U.S. waged over the last 20 years? All you proved is that you're a racist and a bigot.
I used to think the hardest fights are fought on the battlefields. Now, after these 10 long minutes, I see that they are fought over the debating chambers before the final arbiter. A battlefield only decides the outcome of the fight. The debate decides the future of the entire realm.
if anyone debating there had seen a battlefield they wouldn't need to debate such obvious common sense things as to keep the barbarians out... Rome's political class stopped being soldiers, then only money rules and everything is up for grabs; citizenship, franchise, the army itself...
@B Dan Spoken like someone who has never heard of the battle of Gate Pa. The Maori overwhelmingly won the battle, but lost the peace. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword. And they conquer the world for the sake of the meek, who will inherit the earth. It has been written, so also, it must be fulfilled and is indeed being fulfilled as we yet speak. ;)
@@greg_4201 Rightly, you have said it was not the Romans who fought anymore, but rather, the barbarians recruited into Roman armies. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you can't fight your own battles, who are you to think you can continue to hold on to your own realm? Simple logic.
@B Dan you've seen them? Have you also seen the 100% of empires which fall? Maybe you should look at those too! Have you never read that those who live by the sword also die by the sword? You can conquer by the sword, but you cannot rule by the sword. The pen is always mightier than the sword. Always.
@B Dan Pheh! You're quoting my fellow countryman as if his words were gospel. By the stroke of a pen, an entire army is demobilised. What use is the weapons of the infantrymen when they've lost their job? If they turn on their masters, their own comrades will slay them. Authority triumphs over power, every single time. A general or warlord or political leader can wreck as much havoc as they like, but at the end of the day, they are at the mercy of the historians. The traffic cops can be taken to court if they disobey the law. Leaders of countries can be dragged off as war criminals. No one is above the Law. And at the end of the day, death slays all tyrants. And then, they face their judgement at the mercy of their own Maker, who won't be particularly impressed at the way they treated their fellow creatures. You say you live in the real world, as if you can tell the real world apart from your dogma. But may your karma run over your dogma.
Stephen Boyd is the only weak link here, and while he had theatrical experience the competition was tough....Alec Guinness, James Mason, Christopher Plummer, Anthony Quayle, Omar Sharif...Russell Crowe had it more easy in the remake...which we could call...The Gladiator.
I love Roman history so much because of moments like these. It’s so grandiose, so poignant- it makes me think of the word “legendary” and how it comes from *legendarius* (the gerund of *legere,* *legendum* + arius), which pretty much means “you’ve gotta read about it,” where the *leg-* is just like in legitimate, legal, and legible. Roman History is just legendary: you have just got to about it.
I have a personal theory that much of Rome's ability to become a great society came in their intrinsic value of communication, where clear communication is considered the source of order. We know from contemporaneous writings that oration was a highly respected skill among Romans and especially among the political classes, so much so that they developed an entire system of hand gesticulation for the purposes of heightening and clarifying verbal communication. We know that at the height of the Legion's proficiency at war there were literacy requirements among the lower ranks. They placed a huge value on record-keeping, recording more than just people's words but also constant detailed recording of statistics and events. We have more detailed accounts of Roman affairs than we do of most of the European kingdoms that followed Rome's collapse. Studying Roman history really gives you a sense of how dark the Dark Ages were--in many respects Rome feels like an out-of-place modern society that was teleported into Antiquity, and it's a little saddening to think of the cessation of advancement that occurred after their end. I often wonder where we'd be today if the inheritors of the Roman West had retained Rome's appreciation for the spoken and written word.
@@bladerunner12 There’s so much truth here that it’s hard for me to even unpack it all. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 The literary tradition that was alive in Rome is still with us today, of course. The great authors like Cicero and Seneca never truly died out- trust me, I speak Latin- but you do too, sort of, in that you and I are still using the Latin alphabet; not the Greek or the Persian one but *this* Latin one, of course. “Rome is words that seem like they fit together.” Is also something I’m fond of saying, and it’s true, and the beauty and simplicity of Latin make this all the more true.
From the story, to the themes, to even the very costumes..it is clear that Gladiator is a spiritual successor to this film. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And to see Alec Guinness as Marcus Aurelius was perfect. I've never known him in any other role than as Obi-Wan...it was somehow like I was watching the same character.
He played King Charles I in the Cromwell movie. And Cromwell’s actor Richard Harris would go on to play Marcus Aurelius in Gladiator. Just som fun facts I wanted to say.
Great speech from dear old Finlay Currie, a great Scottish character actor who appeared in several other epics, most notably as Peter, the disciple of Jesus, in the first big costume spectacular of the 50s, "Quo Vadis".
All these actors honed thier skills on the stage first. That's where acting is learned. These men and women have failed somewhere to succeed here. Bravo.
Every drop of water contains a tempest, an entire ocean. Every snowflake contains an avalanche, a glacier. Do not be fooled by the benign innocence of a singular victim, who contains vengeance and wrath en masse. Educate barbarians first before allowing admission, lest their barbarism infect the developed host.
@@HostileLemons immigration was a deciding factor on the destruction of Rome because most of the immigrants didn’t become dutiful citizens of the empire and often rebelled against Rome so immigration has massive impacts the 1965 Immigration Act was never voted on by the People it was the government that did that.
As another wise man, Heraclitus of Ephesus, once wrote "δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης" (You could not step twice into the same river.) because the river changes constantly and it is not the same river as in the moment ago. The EU or the USA are not the Roman Empire. There are too many differences, you cannot make conclusions based on a few accidental similarities. The demise of the Roman Empire was caused by more factors. Internal wars, plague and economic collapse because cutting off the supply of the slaves were among them. When the Empire could not expand and plunder foreign territory or provinces anymore, its economy stagnated at best. After the Crisis of the Third Century, the Empire did not look as we imagine from historical block-busters. The Roman Empire was a military dictatorship, too big to be ruled from one centre effectively in those times. In the 5th century, the Germanic tribes weren't backward savages without a potter's wheel as in the 1st century. Their kings and leaders often grew up in Rome or Ravenna as noble hostages, their soldiers knew Roman tactics.
I love this movie. Truly epic in every way. Huge stars in a huge cast, huge screen, huge sets, great music score, wonderful performances. Yet the cost meant it had to be monster box office hit to make money and it didn’t. They wouldn’t make another another epic for decades.
Incredible production design and a great score by Dimitri Tiomkin. And, yet, there exists no American Blu-ray release and no 4K. It is films like this that remastering and 4K were developed.
It's funny, because the young senator was the clear antagonist of the scene, yet history proved him to be 100% right about everything. The citizenship became a cheap commodity and lost all value, the surrounding rulers believed Rome to have become weak, and the very people the heroes of the scene wished to shelter were the ones to hammer the final nail into the coffin of Rome.
Welp, a civil war every tuesday, stupid taxation system and the assassination the rare strong and loyal men who could have actually saved the empire also did not help.
It kind of reminds me of another great nation which decided it's citizenship wasn't worth much, and then began to perish under the weight of foreign immigration/invasion.
@@davidfinch7407 America's inevitable fall has got fuck all to do with immigration and all to to with a few rich people stripping the county all its wealth and convincing the left and the right population that their each others enemy. The rich are the enemy not the immigrant
I saw this film for the first time in 2018, after hearing what a flop it was on its initial release...and it's become one of my favorites. But it's truly before its time, and its concepts are as relevant today (maybe even more so) than in 1964 when it was first released.
As a professor of history I heartily endorse this film. It has it's share of "Hollywood fiction" in it, but on the whole it is very accurate. Christopher Plummer does an excellent job as the Emperor, Commodus. This scene concerning the Roman Senate speaks volumes about he problems that will later bring down the Republic and Rome itself. It is a hard film to find, though!
"..later bring down the Republic...."? The Roman Republic ended with the settlement of the Emperor Augustus in 27 BC, some 200 years before the depiction in this film. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic
Such voices, beautiful, strong, clear, persuasive, articulate and passionate. Sad we have so few great orators these days, none of them among politicians.
I recall broadcasts from the parliament in Westminster going back 50 years. Boris Johnson is hands down the best speaker over that period. A born entertainer. Thatcher was very prepared and highly organised but lacked any flair or spontaneity.
When barbarians at the gates become barbarians in the gates...like it or not, there is a lot of truth to that. They never fully integrated by choice. Rome had many problems, and that was the largest of them all once they let barbarian tribes not only settle into Roman territory, but accepted them as equal auxiliaries in the army. So many never became loyal to Rome.
The barbarians wanted to become roman but time and again the roman empire would massacre and betray loyal barbarian soldiers. Many late Roman leaders were part barbarian themselves. The Senate of the empire and the aristocracy frequently plunged the empire into civil war during already hard times.
roman empire fell because of barbarians who didint care about Rome and never bothered to become full, dutiful citizens of Roman empire, and yes... course there are some exceptions but still
@@webo1521 You cannot become what you are not. It's not that non-romans didn't bother becoming "dutiful citizens". Citizenship nationalism is cringe and fake. European barbarians could become romans purely because of race. When Rome became 60% extra-european by its fall, it was bound to happen. Just like in the West today.
One of the last great film epics. Superbly acted by an unbeatable cast AND before the advent of CGI. The battle scenes and those of assembled armies were made up of thousands of extras!
The promises of old lords, the Pax Romana prophecied by Marcus Aurelius, a nation and ideology driven forth by the words and ideals of a hero held high. Shit gives me chills.
Livius himself would have had speaking rights in the Senate as only Senators could serve as Legates of Legions. Ironically the biggest problem with Roman Government and Politics was that the terms of office were TOO short. Only one year in every office, and it was expected to move up or move out. Also the second biggest problem was the Gubernatorial system, devolving power to Governors and giving them Legions, even with service, the average Legate could have held his own in the Senate without troubles. On the other hand, who could not imagine James Mason himself as a Senator of Rome with the highest distinction?
Usually, Preators and Consuls became Governors after their terms expired, then if they were leading a military campaign and their term ran out they were simply re-designated Proconsuls or Propreators to keep them in command for the remaining duration of the campaign under the stronger control of the Senate. After a Term of Office, the Higher officials would become Governours and then return to the Senate as Ex-Consul and Ex-Preator with possibility of re-election every 7 years.
What they didn't mention in this clip is that Romans were too wealthy and effete to wage war by this point, and they had long since been paying off various barbarian tribes to do it for them. Pretty much the same as USA today. Society of weaklings.
Fun fact: James Mason was the first choice to play Harvard Law Professor Charles Kingsfield in 1973 film The Paper Chase. He turned it down, and the producers turned to a little-known British-American actor named John Houseman for the part. Houseman ended up winning the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor for this role, which he later revised in a TV series of the same name as the film. Mason likely also would have been excellent in the role, though.
Never have I been glued to the screen with just people talking. My god. When will we ever see these kind of performances again. It's like watching theater.
At this point in the Roman Empire, it had already been declared *centuries* ago that all who resided within Rome's borders were Roman Citizens. Basically; your shitty partisan politics has no place in classical history, and you degrade your intelligence by thinking it so does.
@@luminous6520 It was the edict of Caracalla in 212 AD that made all freemen in the Empires borders to be citizens. This edict never applied to slaves unless they were freed. A substantial part of the population even in this time were slaves, estimates vary. This scene takes place during the reign of Commodus which was 20 or 30 years before this. By the time of Caracalla's edict Rome had become a military dictatorship, the Senate had ceased to be a force in Roman politics.
Royston E. Smythe what an odious statement, from an historical illiterate as well. I suggest education, it is often an antidote for such silliness, or rather lack of understanding.
iJustFlyDammit Lmao then you're an idiot, because while germanic immigrants violently attacked Roman citizens in hordes, immigrants in the US tend to keep to themselves & their families, hide & stay away from local authorities as much as possible, big difference dipshit, there are no hordes of illegal immigrants attacking & killing US citizens in scale breaking numbers unless you watch fox news (which you probably do) this comparison is as stupid as the 2 conservatives that raised you. Rome was the most prestigious, honorable & influential nation in human history, to even compare Rome to the US is like comparing a roaring lion to a newborn kitten. the US is NOTHING like Rome, get over yourself.
If the last of the "great emperors" that the old Senator served was Marcus Aurelius, then the Caesar sitting on that throne must be Emperor Commodus...oh shit...!
Spoiler: This movie ends in a duel between Commodus and the General. Sigh: worse yet, for some reason I thought Oliver Reed played the German chieftain. Kept smirking watching Gladiator for first time.
What a great empire Rome was ,& they fortified it by expansion,building magnificent roads all over their empire, granting citizenship to all those they had conquered. All of western Europe, Britain, & North Africa. What a people!
Tactic 101: have ugly, mean spirited actors play the roles you want viewers to hate and have genteel, noble looking actors play the roles you want them to support.
@@PRubin-rh4sr Because you communicate like a Neanderthal, you are not eligible to participate in adult conversation. Enjoy your time grunting back and forth with your fellow ignoramuses in the internet's gutter. I doubt you will ever graduate from it.
It’s amazing how Rome became a vessel, upon which anyone has been able to project their own beliefs and values. The rise and decline of the Roman Empire becomes the authority by which we can confirm our own hopes and fears about the present, regardless of any correspondance to the real world.
Rome is the real world. In case you didn't notice it remains at the core of Western civilization. Rome's history has everything in it for those who want to avoid repeating some mistakes
It only concerns Europeans. This is why during this period of great crisis, europeans identify all the more with their ancestors and the history of Rome.
You don’t see this type of acting anymore, this is start studded, classically trained actors who literally became the parts they played as if it were really their likeness.
I wonder if the speech made by James Mason was inspired, at all, by the potentially apocryphal story of Sun Tzu training a Royal Harem as soldiers. The story goes that King Such-n-such ordered Sun Tzu to train his harem, all 180 women, to be soldiers, to be Palace Guards. Whether the King was serious or not, Sun Tzu took his orders seriously and went about it. He gathered the women for their first lesson. He ordered the first two women to stand to attention and to pick up their spears. The women made no real effort to comply, complaining of the heavy weight of the spears and at having to stand for so long. Sun Tzu ordered them again to stand to attention and to hold their spears. The women refused to move at all this time. Sun Tzu understood what was happening, so he inquired of the women if they understood what he was asking of them. They replied that they understood perfectly what he was asking, but that they nevertheless had no intention of complying. Sun Tzu summoned the guards and had both women executed by beheading. The other women assumed that this would be the end of Sun Tzu, since he had killed two of the King's harem and that they could end this silly crap about training to become soldiers. But when Sun Tzu explained his actions to the King, he wasn't punished and soldier-training for the harem continued. I didn't remember the following well enough to recreate here, so I'll cut'n'paste it, so I don't leave out any important bits. In explaining his actions to the King, Sun Tzu said that "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But if his orders are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." After the two recalcitrant women were beheaded, the remaining 178 women obeyed every order given to them by Sun Tzu. Anyway, at about 3:30 here, it feels a bit like James Mason's lines were written by someone who was familiar with this story of Sun Tzu training an army of concubines. I suppose that there's no real way of knowing that, anymore. Not unless the writers left detailed written accounts of their inspiration for the script of this film...
The verbal sparring is on point and had me gripped from start to finish. Also there are no quick cuts or music to make the scene more "dramatic", just great dialogue delivered by great actors. Modern directors should take notes.
The film does have historical inaccuracies but the self-serving malaise that fatally afflicted the Roman empire is well conveyed. As for the cast, Alec Guinness, Stephen Boyd, James Mason, Christopher Plummer, and Sophia Loren, to name only some. Ne plus ultra!
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“The best answer to anger is silence.” - Marcus Aurelius
And yet he said that- Alan Watts
Lol jk
buddha also said that hundreds of years before mark aurelius.
"...and a big stick, just in case."
Doesn't work in all situations.
Truly, the verbal dialogue of this scene is better than any special effects
Definitely
Good writing trumps flashy CGI effects every single time.
That’s how movies used to be. Much better imo
That is a wonderful observation. My head was groping for what I loved in this scene and why it generated so much more satisfaction than a contemporary film. You answered my confusion.
Nothing was above "good acting" and verbal dialogue back then... A lot movies made today are of no substance... Today, you have an array of actors, with very little talent... Then in Hollywood, you had to have talent... Now, it's just about being marketable... This takes a level of intelligence to understand and appreciate today.
The insult of "Greek" leveled at the guy was fun, because it was in Greece that the last bastion of the Roman Empire lasted for about 1000 years after the fall of Rome itself. They considered themselves Romans, because their institutions were in lineage from Rome.
Great movie though!
The Greeks helped influence Rome in it's birth, and carried on Rome's legacy millennia after Rome fell.
@@soyusmaximus7176 I often think that the derision that Romans displayed towards Greek culture was just a manifestation of their jealousy.
Rome was influenced by their Neighbors the mighty Etruscans and everything else fell into place, and the Roman Senate is founded by Rome not Greeks.
But regardless ROME & ATHENS were two great civilizations the western world as ever known period.
Gr*ekoids were always second class citizens in empire, fulling their twink stock.
@SSJ That's not what you unitially said!!!! You said that "the Romans saw the Greeks as degenerates", meanwhile Rome was tremendously intertwined with Greek civilization.
I love these old movies. These are the days when actors were legit, professional and didn't care about looking good for the camera, they simply wanted to nail their part no matter how big or small. You feel like you're watching a stage play, not a movie.
Agreed this was a time of true artistic drama and acting
They seem more mature older all together.
Yes ! At that time an actor's VOICE was his greatest and most
important ability. Many of those appearing here were stage trained
REAL actors !!
Older movies has so long scenes without cuts. So good. Today’s movies is ruined by post processing.
Seems like all you guys are watching pretty shit movies. Just google Daniel day Lewis or Frances Mcdormand and start watching. You’ll change your mind if you’re actually open minded
James Mason never fails to deliver an excellent performance.
Especially with Bob Larson
I once saw a video of someone doing a fantastic impression of James Mason with their arse. Seriously.
Yes.
A master actor.
James Mason's portrayal of Erwin Rommel in "The Desert Fox" was excellent as well.
@@southtexasprepper1837 yes fantastic.
Also in Lolita.
“How does an Empire die? Does it collapse in one terrible moment? No.”
Alexander The Great’s Empire : Uhhhh, actually....
Alexander never really had the opportunity to consolidate his "Empire" as such; and whilst we can call it that on paper. In actuality it would make more sense to call it his "realm" and the lands beyond Hellas as being mere "Conquests". Short of the establishment of over a dozen "Alexandrias" across his realm, and encouraging instances of Hellenisation throughout Asia Minor and Syria (which were already in part underway), the Empire wasn't nearly cohesive enough, nor did it possess the bureaucratic and political infrastructure to hold it together. Despite the best efforts of Perdikkas and Antipater, it was simply an impossible task to keep it together with Alexander's untimely death and the huge swaths of territory he subjugated, it was essentially an Empire in size and name only.
his successors are the ones who destroyed his empire by their constant greed
It *can* under a really stupid idea proposed by no faction or nation in history but libtards.
Shaka Zulu: "Uhhhhhhhh"
(his mom died and he went insane)
Tora, Tora, Tora….
This film has a very interesting history. It was film entirely in Spain. And the scenes were done in actual Roman towns,the rest in studios in Madrid and Rome. This is close to historical accuracy. This is truly a well crafted film; from directing,writing,acting, and editing. No 21 century film can compare too this work. There is amount cgi or any computer simulation can produce this quality. Thank you for sharing this beautiful vignette.
The movie compresses a number of events but captures a true sense of how Rome's power and grandeur deteriorated. Bidding for the Imperium actually did take place at one point during the Year of the Four Emperors, and famine and plague struck during the time known as the Crisis of the Third Century, which post-dated the misrule of Commodus. But in how The Fall Of The Roman Empire depicts the dynamic of the slow Roman collapse, the forces that eroded the strength and morale of the Empire, is where it really shines. The movie's coda summed it up: "No great civilisation is conquered from without, until it has destroyed itself from within".
Yep, totaly agree. No CGI present here. I think it's still the largest film set ever assembled ( of the Roman Forum). A true epic.
HBO Rome is the only thing comparable
Lawrence you have described the nature of the movie perfectly.
Because cgi determines the quality of w film. Stupid boomers
The "rights to all thing" in this was a product of the time the film was written. 1964 was the same year the Civil Rights Act was passed in the U.S. (this is an American film). The lead writer of the film was a Jewish Canadian who was blacklisted during McCarthyism for he and his wife's Communist affiliations.
Citizenship to all was something Emperor Caracalla passed 30 years after the events of this scene, and Roman historian Cassius Dio asserts this was done to expand the tax base of eligible citizens. Another reason might have been to expand the recruitment pool of eligible draftees into the Legions. Unfortunately that wound up reducing the appeal of the Auxiliaries, non-citizen soldiers who would enlist to seek citizenship as a reward for service; citizenship came with legal protections that subject/auxiliary status didn't have and so it provided an attractive incentive for willing service. Uniform citizenship also blurred the legal distinction between the Italian "core" of the Empire and the auxiliary provincials. All were subject to the same laws now, and over time the centralness of Italia shifted away.
This film also directly inspired Ridley Scott's 'Gladiator' 36 years later. The overall plot is almost beat for beat identical, right down to the final duel between Commodus and the fictional protagonist. In this one, Commodus is killed in the Forum instead of the Arena, but it still pre-kills him about 12 years before his real historical death (he was sole Emperor for 12 years). There's also a scene involving the fictional Timonides (the Greek ex-slave in this scene) holding his hand in a flame without crying out to prove his bravery; it's a direct lift from the tale of Gaius Scaevola doing the same when he was captured by the Etruscan Clusium King.
_noticing intensifies_
It has always been in our faces, hasn't it? Good catch.
With the HUGE exception that Scott's Gladiator didn't mention the dilutuion of Roman citizenship at all.
@MichaelSmith-ij2ut
Gladiator sure ripped off the ending but I still prefer the original.
Well well well
muh j00s @@notsocrates9529
"Fellow Romans"
This is too much.
Truly life imitates art
and the senator with the hooked nose at the end giving the open the gate and embrace the hordes speech, certainly ahead of it's time in self awareness of the situation.
The irony is that it is virtue signalling yet history shows that the Vandals DID destroy Rome
@@crimsonthumos3905 It is pretty humorous. Mass immigration is not a good thing, I don't understand how people still can't see it. Even similar groups have great strife, but completely different ones causes untold chaos.
@@accountreality1988Also not hard to find the early life section of the lead writer for the film
The nose gave it away 😂
In 7th grade we had the opportunity to see this film for extra credit. I loved it. I always loved history. With Stephen Boyd ( an under rated actor) and the great Christopher Plummer it was a great movie. RIP Stephen Boyd and Christopher Plummer.
I know this is a one year old comment, but I hate to break it to you that this film is completely fiction. From the comments I gather that some elements of the set design were accurate, but the actual story is not even close to anything that happened in Rome. In fact, several of the basic assumptions it makes are flat out wrong. For example, there is a consensus among the senators that slaves produce less than free men. This may be true, but the senators (who were nearly always rich aristocrats) profited immensely off of their slaves. No senator would ever free his slaves without payment. This was true for slavery up until the industrial revolution. It was hugely profitable for those in charge, and so it stuck around. It was not a "peculiar institution" as one of the US founding fathers put it, it was the status quo in every part of the world, even pre-contact Americas. The idea that slavery was wrong was something that came about in the mid 1700s, with the Enlightenment. This film sort of puts a weird, enlightenment spin on things, from what I can tell from this scene. It fails to consider that rulers' philosophy was completely different from our thinking today.
That last paragraph was all my knowledge, but if anyone reading this is especially curious, this quora post talks more about why the story, while trying to present a historical narrative, ends up not hitting a bullseye, but instead veering to the right and killing the neighbor's dog. www.quora.com/Is-Edward-Gibbons-The-History-of-the-Decline-and-Fall-of-the-Roman-Empire-historically-accurate
@@milesmartig5603 Yes - such films as this are never to be regarded as true to history, but rather to be valued for their performances (as with Shakespeare histories)
Some of the greatest speeches ever filmed are contained in these ten minutes!
Very relevant for the present moment .... and shows how wrong it is to let barbarians in
No, philosophical naivety. The Roman Empire fell under it own corruption from within.
@@gdiwolverinemale2745i totally agree! look at what happened to the Palestinians after they welcomed in jewish European refugees fleeing christian Europe and the na z i s.
@@gdiwolverinemale2745 Then you clearly understood nothing.
Finlay Curry is one of the greatest actors to come along in years. What adistinct voice hee had. May he RIP. A GREAT MAN.
I absolutely love the acoustics in this scene. Almost makes you feel as if you're really there.
Are you 50? I hate it.
These arguments are intriguing in today’s context, too.
They’ve only gotten more accurate in the years since you wrote this.
@@seanoreiley48 true in the sense of mass immigration. letting in 'the hordes' is never a good thing, as in this case the vandals and visigoths did destroy them. and this is just in the context of europe. i see a rise in right-wing ideology (not necessarily bad within reason) that is definitely geared toward immigration, and the inability of a portion of a population/group to accept and assimilate into another culture, but rather attempt to destroy it. you definitely see this with a portion of muslim immigrants or those from war torn backgrounds that import it to their new country. and again, it just is a pipeline to having severe internal strife.
for a one world government yes
You said what I was about. And the first part where the senator argues against giving citizenship to “barbarians and savages that go around murdering might seem even more apposite. However, James Masons oratory while well delivered, in today’s context and potentially then is a nice idea, but somewhat unrealistic. Certain problematic people come with hate, which they brought with them and are indoctrinated in and filled with envy and an ideology that believes itself superior and consequently that it must subdue others. As my history of Rome and the barbarians reminds me, the barbarians were not exactly adverse to conquest. And as for the old senator saying we must open the gates more or less and change ourselves, misses the point of the first senator that a viper remains a viper even if you treat it nicely.
@@ljp400 I don't think you know anything about how Rome was "destroyed". Please look at it, it's more interesting than "muslin barbarian bad destroy civilisation"
“We have changed the world, can we not change ourselves?”
Powerful line.
@Robo Redneck
Oh shut up, the romans would be laughing at you if they understood you're nonsense.
*cough* America? Hear that?
Yeah, good call old man, America, I mean Rome is dead now
No, we *should* not change ourselves!
The fact that Stephen Boyd is once again playing a Roman gives this movie some unintended continuity with 1959’s Ben-Hur
Boyd was supposed to play Marc Antony in Cleopatra.
It was supposed to be Chuck Heston but he turned the role down as he didn't want to work with Sophia Loren again after EL CID. So he recommended his Ben Hur Co-Star Stephen. Steve had as much chemistry with Sophia as Chuck did I think. An amazingly underrated actor.
…it goes on, Judah! It goes on!
Finlay Currie as well. OK, he wasn't a Roman in Ben-Hur, but he has the same kind of role in that movie, as Old Man Talking Sense And Peace.
It's so refreshing so see these old movies, after all the modern day CGI induced fatigue!
Also there must be atleast one gay or lesbian, and there must be sex scenes for no reason all the time
@Dumitru Frunza So ur saying Titanic, Jurassic Park, Terminator, Frozen, Warcraft, Aladdin,....... all sucks????????? Yet, these movies had earned massive around of money. Seem to me it's just u making fatigue comments around here.
@@Nishkid641 Chill out my friend. Those movies are great. I'm talking about the progressive abuse of CGI as time goes on - movies made in the nineties, compared to those made in the 2000ths, etc. Take the Lord of the Rings series as an example. The early ones had CGI, but on the whole, was OK-ish. The more recent ones, the amount of CGI has increased gradually.
If you find that OK - no problem. TH-cam is a big place for everyone's opinions, mine included.
@@dumitrufrunza8136 yeah yeah. I just curious about those fools who keep complaining. My advice for them is that: why don't they join the film industry and change it instead of sitting and just criticizing. But I bet whatever they do, they will meet similar criticism from others.
Oh stop generalizing ,boomer.
I wish I lived in ancient Rome, but just so I could wear those helmets. Their hat game was strong.
Or you could just buy the materials used and go cosplaying instead. Less death and more pussies achieved.
Yeah, now helmets look like turtles thrown into your head. I would add the same material but make it a Roman looking helm and add a pilum.
One could clean the dust off their feet with that brush on that helmet. It seems they wore sandals.
Their helmets were sick. Also back into the bronze age. They had colorful horse tail plumes. Damn they looked stylish
As far as I know the Italian army's Bersaglieri infantry units still have a black feather bush on their combat helmets to this day!
There is truth with all those speeches that resonate today!.
It'as knotty a problem, with some truth on both sides, as it ever was.
Sounds good but here's the problem...history notes that when Rome did that, the immigrants would not assimilate. They would not learn the language or break from the customs that were harmful to keep peace. Rome was then destroyed from within. But of course that was only a symptom of the fall. The real fall of Rome was that it refused to accept the one True God but instead followed non-gods. Any nation that does this is only asking for the inevitable. Judgement. We will all reap what we have sewn.
+hots4jc
Are you stupid? The Roman empire had been christian for quite some time during its fall (which was one of the reasons why it collapsed in the first place.
hots4jc that was because the Romans asked them to come in. No, they BEGGED them to come in. In their moment of weakness, they asked others to protect them, so they never respected them.
hots4jc Rome was strongest before becoming Christian.
These were the glory days of the real Hollywood. Back then the pictures where HUGE productions. Just look at all the cast and extras in this scene. Imagine the wardrobe, catering , lighting all in a HUGE way to produce such a play like act yet for the camera. And notice the actors did the lines by the page without a cut or edit. They were real professional actors. Not like today. They can’t remember two lines. I love to watch these older moves as well as the black and white movies. They captivate me and demand attention and then you know they have truly done their job well as professionals they were. it’s wonderful that we have these great pictures to be entertained and to take us to a place and time forgotten.
True and as bad as Hollywood becomes because it adapt to the audience. Put those lines in today cinema.. everyone slept ^ ). That's the real horror. Also the same scene apply to today , the burning street of France, inheritance of Roman system still can't master culture integration.
Old people being old, example #5446565643543
These were actors who had spent years in theatre learning their craft
and perfecting their technique .
Unlike today where it's straight from Stage school to the screen .!
And it shows..!!
Utterly superb performances & dialogue. James Mason is always astounding.
The Roman Empire 😮
This is how the empire falls....with thunderous applause.
Movie takes place in 180 AD. The Western Roman Empire falls almost 300 years later. The Eastern Roman Empire fall about 1,200 years later. Curiously, both empires fell because of Germanic invaders: the Goths for the former, and Frankish Crusaders of the 4th Crusade for the latter.
Read up on what the 4th Crusaders did, and then reply back.
Saying that is like ignoring all the preexisting health conditions that lead to terminal illnesses. While the Ottomans weakened and ultimately ended the Byzantine Empire, it cannot be ignored that it was the Roman Catholics who fatally backstabbed and fragmented the empire to easily conquerable rump states. Even after the the Byzantines regained their lands from the Latins, they were left militarily and economically crippled. All the Ottomans had to do was pick up the scraps that the Latins left behind.
Yes,Manuel.Starting at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071.
An empire disappears when you start letting in individuals who have no interest in maintaining it
"There comes a time when the people no longer believe in it. Then, then does an empire begin to die."
With the riots going on across America I can't help but feel this is more relevant for some people in the world than ever.
I had the same thought pal
@Peter Rogan personally I think Amerca of all the countries need to be united more than ever being that now it has an evil moving target on its back, the US is supposed to be a living example of democracy but I'm afraid some individuals in power are now destroying the very one thing that makes America outstanding. It is it is in the best interest of the world that America remains the Superpower... I weep for the world.
rencrow one dies another rises. As for best interest ... well we shall see. Only time will tell. But if America falls China becomes the superpower without strong opposition ... and that’s something we all should be afraid of.
@@sarahjames927 Ask yourself... what did China ever do to warrant your prejudice? China didn't initiate any war nor sanction for the past 70 years. How many wars have the U.S. waged over the last 20 years? All you proved is that you're a racist and a bigot.
Americans (especially AA) no longer believe in it - This is a "Red Flag" for America.
I used to think the hardest fights are fought on the battlefields. Now, after these 10 long minutes, I see that they are fought over the debating chambers before the final arbiter.
A battlefield only decides the outcome of the fight. The debate decides the future of the entire realm.
if anyone debating there had seen a battlefield they wouldn't need to debate such obvious common sense things as to keep the barbarians out... Rome's political class stopped being soldiers, then only money rules and everything is up for grabs; citizenship, franchise, the army itself...
@B Dan Spoken like someone who has never heard of the battle of Gate Pa.
The Maori overwhelmingly won the battle, but lost the peace.
Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
And they conquer the world for the sake of the meek, who will inherit the earth.
It has been written, so also, it must be fulfilled and is indeed being fulfilled as we yet speak.
;)
@@greg_4201 Rightly, you have said it was not the Romans who fought anymore, but rather, the barbarians recruited into Roman armies.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
If you can't fight your own battles, who are you to think you can continue to hold on to your own realm?
Simple logic.
@B Dan you've seen them? Have you also seen the 100% of empires which fall? Maybe you should look at those too! Have you never read that those who live by the sword also die by the sword?
You can conquer by the sword, but you cannot rule by the sword. The pen is always mightier than the sword. Always.
@B Dan Pheh! You're quoting my fellow countryman as if his words were gospel.
By the stroke of a pen, an entire army is demobilised. What use is the weapons of the infantrymen when they've lost their job? If they turn on their masters, their own comrades will slay them.
Authority triumphs over power, every single time.
A general or warlord or political leader can wreck as much havoc as they like, but at the end of the day, they are at the mercy of the historians.
The traffic cops can be taken to court if they disobey the law.
Leaders of countries can be dragged off as war criminals.
No one is above the Law.
And at the end of the day, death slays all tyrants. And then, they face their judgement at the mercy of their own Maker, who won't be particularly impressed at the way they treated their fellow creatures.
You say you live in the real world, as if you can tell the real world apart from your dogma. But may your karma run over your dogma.
Man this is pure, glorious acting! I though I would just skip after 10-15 seconds, but ooh no! I couldn't! The amazing acting had me hooked.
Great and powerful acting here by the legendary, unforgotten James Mason.
And this kiddies, is what real script writing and acting looks like. What a pity we don't see such eloquence in movies today.
Stephen Boyd is the only weak link here, and while he had theatrical experience the competition was tough....Alec Guinness, James Mason, Christopher Plummer, Anthony Quayle, Omar Sharif...Russell Crowe had it more easy in the remake...which we could call...The Gladiator.
I love Roman history so much because of moments like these. It’s so grandiose, so poignant- it makes me think of the word “legendary” and how it comes from *legendarius* (the gerund of *legere,* *legendum* + arius), which pretty much means “you’ve gotta read about it,” where the *leg-* is just like in legitimate, legal, and legible. Roman History is just legendary: you have just got to about it.
I have a personal theory that much of Rome's ability to become a great society came in their intrinsic value of communication, where clear communication is considered the source of order. We know from contemporaneous writings that oration was a highly respected skill among Romans and especially among the political classes, so much so that they developed an entire system of hand gesticulation for the purposes of heightening and clarifying verbal communication. We know that at the height of the Legion's proficiency at war there were literacy requirements among the lower ranks. They placed a huge value on record-keeping, recording more than just people's words but also constant detailed recording of statistics and events. We have more detailed accounts of Roman affairs than we do of most of the European kingdoms that followed Rome's collapse. Studying Roman history really gives you a sense of how dark the Dark Ages were--in many respects Rome feels like an out-of-place modern society that was teleported into Antiquity, and it's a little saddening to think of the cessation of advancement that occurred after their end. I often wonder where we'd be today if the inheritors of the Roman West had retained Rome's appreciation for the spoken and written word.
@@bladerunner12 There’s so much truth here that it’s hard for me to even unpack it all. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
The literary tradition that was alive in Rome is still with us today, of course. The great authors like Cicero and Seneca never truly died out- trust me, I speak Latin- but you do too, sort of, in that you and I are still using the Latin alphabet; not the Greek or the Persian one but *this* Latin one, of course.
“Rome is words that seem like they fit together.” Is also something I’m fond of saying, and it’s true, and the beauty and simplicity of Latin make this all the more true.
Rome rotted from the inside , just like America is rotting from the inside !
As an X-Roman centurion I concur.Hail Testacleze.
I Am Leg-End
I’m starting to love classic movies. Actors loving their craft wanting to do their best.
Love watching old 50s/60s epic films, reminds of a lazy Sunday afternoons as a kid in the 90s.
70's and 80's for me.
From the story, to the themes, to even the very costumes..it is clear that Gladiator is a spiritual successor to this film. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And to see Alec Guinness as Marcus Aurelius was perfect. I've never known him in any other role than as Obi-Wan...it was somehow like I was watching the same character.
He's good in Lawrence of Arabia as well.
He played King Charles I in the Cromwell movie. And Cromwell’s actor Richard Harris would go on to play Marcus Aurelius in Gladiator.
Just som fun facts I wanted to say.
He played Colonel Nicholson in Bridge over the River Kwai, probably the main part in that film.
SEE Sir Alec as CHARLES The 1st In CROMWELL 😁SUBLIME g
He is in David Lean films...masterpieces all.
The acting in this movie is phenomenal! Thanks for uploading ^_^
Regretfully the 'larger compassion' can lead to the undoing of any civilization. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Some of those words really hit hard and are still relevant to this day. Thank you for the upload.
Rip Christopher Plummer, the original crazed Commodus. Both actors played role brilliantly
Wow !! This is powerhouse acting ! What voices ! And what
beautiful dialogue !!!
What an incredible piece of film.
James Mason has a special, compelling presence.
Belinda Carlisle's father in law.
😂
I like the use of skulls close to the ceiling, foreshadowing death.
I didn't notice it at all.
Guess I have to go back watching the video again.
Great speech from dear old Finlay Currie, a great Scottish character actor who appeared in several other epics, most notably as Peter, the disciple of Jesus, in the first big costume spectacular of the 50s, "Quo Vadis".
My favourite performance by him is as Magwitch in Davis Lean's Great Expectations.
All these actors honed thier skills on the stage first. That's where acting is learned. These men and women have failed somewhere to succeed here. Bravo.
Currie also appears as Balthazar in Ben Hur (1959) and Sir Cedric in Ivanhoe (1952).
He was also epic in the movie People Will Talk with Cary Grant a movie with subject matter that was taboo at the time
@@ivorbiggun710”Jesus has a way at getting at a young boy, and his liver…”
Every drop of water contains a tempest, an entire ocean. Every snowflake contains an avalanche, a glacier. Do not be fooled by the benign innocence of a singular victim, who contains vengeance and wrath en masse. Educate barbarians first before allowing admission, lest their barbarism infect the developed host.
This might as well be the debate over the 1965 immigration act. Too many parallels to modern America.
Except immigration didnt kill Rome. It was internal corruption and decadence
@@HostileLemons immigration was a deciding factor on the destruction of Rome because most of the immigrants didn’t become dutiful citizens of the empire and often rebelled against Rome so immigration has massive impacts the 1965 Immigration Act was never voted on by the People it was the government that did that.
propaganda piece to break a nations borders. Look at the West today. Its overrun & unable to fight its own destruction.
@@HostileLemons Yes.It.Did.
It’s unfortunate that the protagonists in both have been proven by time to be wrong. 😊
Funny how history repeats itself
As a wise man once wrote, "there is nothing new under the sun."
As a wise old lady said ''humans don't live long enough to see history repeat itself''
Napoleon Did Nothing Wrong King Solomon 😉
As another wise man, Heraclitus of Ephesus, once wrote "δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης" (You could not step twice into the same river.) because the river changes constantly and it is not the same river as in the moment ago. The EU or the USA are not the Roman Empire. There are too many differences, you cannot make conclusions based on a few accidental similarities.
The demise of the Roman Empire was caused by more factors. Internal wars, plague and economic collapse because cutting off the supply of the slaves were among them. When the Empire could not expand and plunder foreign territory or provinces anymore, its economy stagnated at best. After the Crisis of the Third Century, the Empire did not look as we imagine from historical block-busters.
The Roman Empire was a military dictatorship, too big to be ruled from one centre effectively in those times. In the 5th century, the Germanic tribes weren't backward savages without a potter's wheel as in the 1st century. Their kings and leaders often grew up in Rome or Ravenna as noble hostages, their soldiers knew Roman tactics.
no it doesnt, it tends to rhyme however.
They all do so good in this scene. The man presenting a hard argument to the senate looks nervous and clenches his hands in a way to show his anxiety.
Damn...they knew how to make a movie back then.And I love the old man's speach
*speech
So Stephen Boyd played another roman role. He was Messala from Ben Hur before that movie. He's really a brilliant actor. 😊
I was lucky to be taken to a lunch he was at in 1973. I just sat there looking at him and thinking 'that's Messala'!
I love this movie. Truly epic in every way. Huge stars in a huge cast, huge screen, huge sets, great music score, wonderful performances. Yet the cost meant it had to be monster box office hit to make money and it didn’t. They wouldn’t make another another epic for decades.
The acting in this movie is phenomenal! Thanks for uploading ^_^. What an incredible piece of film..
Incredible production design and a great score by Dimitri Tiomkin. And, yet, there exists no American Blu-ray release and no 4K. It is films like this that remastering and 4K were developed.
It's funny, because the young senator was the clear antagonist of the scene, yet history proved him to be 100% right about everything. The citizenship became a cheap commodity and lost all value, the surrounding rulers believed Rome to have become weak, and the very people the heroes of the scene wished to shelter were the ones to hammer the final nail into the coffin of Rome.
Welp, a civil war every tuesday, stupid taxation system and the assassination the rare strong and loyal men who could have actually saved the empire also did not help.
It kind of reminds me of another great nation which decided it's citizenship wasn't worth much, and then began to perish under the weight of foreign immigration/invasion.
@@davidfinch7407 Wonder you meant Britain or America? ;-)
They killed great leaders from assassination every month. How can we expect the empire to last longer 💀
@@davidfinch7407 America's inevitable fall has got fuck all to do with immigration and all to to with a few rich people stripping the county all its wealth and convincing the left and the right population that their each others enemy. The rich are the enemy not the immigrant
I saw this film for the first time in 2018, after hearing what a flop it was on its initial release...and it's become one of my favorites. But it's truly before its time, and its concepts are as relevant today (maybe even more so) than in 1964 when it was first released.
As a professor of history I heartily endorse this film. It has it's share of "Hollywood fiction" in it, but on the whole it is very accurate. Christopher Plummer does an excellent job as the Emperor, Commodus. This scene concerning the Roman Senate speaks volumes about he problems that will later bring down the Republic and Rome itself. It is a hard film to find, though!
"..later bring down the Republic...."? The Roman Republic ended with the settlement of the Emperor Augustus in 27 BC, some 200 years before the depiction in this film. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic
ds1868 Romans referred to themselves as the res publica during the Imperial periods
No
Best acting ever. Most underrated film. Film should be restored and relaunched. This the Senate and People of Rome in the drama of a session.
A tragically underrated motion picture. And for my money, some of the most impressive sets in film history.
Came out past it's time. Already a fatigue among audiences for epics.
"my fellow romans we must let in the foreigner hordes seeking to destroy us"
where have we heard this one before? lmao
Such voices, beautiful, strong, clear, persuasive, articulate and passionate.
Sad we have so few great orators these days, none of them among politicians.
I recall broadcasts from the parliament in Westminster going back 50 years. Boris Johnson is hands down the best speaker over that period. A born entertainer. Thatcher was very prepared and highly organised but lacked any flair or spontaneity.
When barbarians at the gates become barbarians in the gates...like it or not, there is a lot of truth to that. They never fully integrated by choice. Rome had many problems, and that was the largest of them all once they let barbarian tribes not only settle into Roman territory, but accepted them as equal auxiliaries in the army. So many never became loyal to Rome.
The barbarians wanted to become roman but time and again the roman empire would massacre and betray loyal barbarian soldiers. Many late Roman leaders were part barbarian themselves. The Senate of the empire and the aristocracy frequently plunged the empire into civil war during already hard times.
The acting in this is being played out by absolute masters of their craft.
One of or if not the greatest movie made about Rome.. So historically spot on
Imagine a world where Timonides the Greek was heard and the promise of the Roman peace was achieved.
roman empire fell because of barbarians who didint care about Rome and never bothered to become full, dutiful citizens of Roman empire, and yes... course there are some exceptions but still
@@webo1521Wow, that sounds like the US today!
@@webo1521 You cannot become what you are not. It's not that non-romans didn't bother becoming "dutiful citizens".
Citizenship nationalism is cringe and fake.
European barbarians could become romans purely because of race. When Rome became 60% extra-european by its fall, it was bound to happen. Just like in the West today.
At least they got the general layout of the Curia Julia correct. Togas are WAY too Byzantine, though.
Excellent sets in this movie. The only part I find that movies cannot get right is the clivus maximus up to the aedes jupiter
@@robbillington1982 I agree, except that the walls of the Curia certainly weren't plain brickwork, and the floor mosaics were much more intricate.
Remember when movies had dialogue? So few and far between they are today.
thank you very much for a video!
One of the last great film epics. Superbly acted by an unbeatable cast AND before the advent of CGI. The battle scenes and those of assembled armies were made up of thousands of extras!
The promises of old lords, the Pax Romana prophecied by Marcus Aurelius, a nation and ideology driven forth by the words and ideals of a hero held high. Shit gives me chills.
Livius himself would have had speaking rights in the Senate as only Senators could serve as Legates of Legions. Ironically the biggest problem with Roman Government and Politics was that the terms of office were TOO short. Only one year in every office, and it was expected to move up or move out. Also the second biggest problem was the Gubernatorial system, devolving power to Governors and giving them Legions, even with service, the average Legate could have held his own in the Senate without troubles.
On the other hand, who could not imagine James Mason himself as a Senator of Rome with the highest distinction?
Usually, Preators and Consuls became Governors after their terms expired, then if they were leading a military campaign and their term ran out they were simply re-designated Proconsuls or Propreators to keep them in command for the remaining duration of the campaign under the stronger control of the Senate. After a Term of Office, the Higher officials would become Governours and then return to the Senate as Ex-Consul and Ex-Preator with possibility of re-election every 7 years.
What stands out in this scene is one thing and one thing only.... GREAT DIALOGUE
More like a tapestry of monologues
@@celtspeaksgoth7251 Exactly
Excellent scene - and gosh doesn’t the dialogue from nearly sixty years ago resonate today?
Welcome to the United States.... at a pivotal moment. Just as the Romans. History does repeat itself, it just comes in different forms
What they didn't mention in this clip is that Romans were too wealthy and effete to wage war by this point, and they had long since been paying off various barbarian tribes to do it for them. Pretty much the same as USA today. Society of weaklings.
Fun fact: James Mason was the first choice to play Harvard Law Professor Charles Kingsfield in 1973 film The Paper Chase. He turned it down, and the producers turned to a little-known British-American actor named John Houseman for the part. Houseman ended up winning the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor for this role, which he later revised in a TV series of the same name as the film. Mason likely also would have been excellent in the role, though.
Never have I been glued to the screen with just people talking. My god. When will we ever see these kind of performances again. It's like watching theater.
"It becomes a cheap, common thing, to be given away like bread" - Like the citizenship of western countries now.
Yep. Cultural suicide.
At this point in the Roman Empire, it had already been declared *centuries* ago that all who resided within Rome's borders were Roman Citizens.
Basically; your shitty partisan politics has no place in classical history, and you degrade your intelligence by thinking it so does.
@@luminous6520 It was the edict of Caracalla in 212 AD that made all freemen in the Empires borders to be citizens. This edict never applied to slaves unless they were freed. A substantial part of the population even in this time were slaves, estimates vary. This scene takes place during the reign of Commodus which was 20 or 30 years before this. By the time of Caracalla's edict Rome had become a military dictatorship, the Senate had ceased to be a force in Roman politics.
@@luminous6520 "by thinking it so does." That was a great point you made. You're very smart and your mom is proud of you.
Royston E. Smythe what an odious statement, from an historical illiterate as well. I suggest education, it is often an antidote for such silliness, or rather lack of understanding.
I feel like I'm watching the US today
Extremely small is a bit of an understatement don't you think
>I feel like i'm watching the US today
That was the point of the "movie".
iJustFlyDammit ignorant comment
iJustFlyDammit
Lmao then you're an idiot, because while germanic immigrants violently attacked Roman citizens in hordes, immigrants in the US tend to keep to themselves & their families, hide & stay away from local authorities as much as possible, big difference dipshit, there are no hordes of illegal immigrants attacking & killing US citizens in scale breaking numbers unless you watch fox news (which you probably do) this comparison is as stupid as the 2 conservatives that raised you. Rome was the most prestigious, honorable & influential nation in human history, to even compare Rome to the US is like comparing a roaring lion to a newborn kitten. the US is NOTHING like Rome, get over yourself.
@Rick O'Shay Libs: Illegal immigrants slaughtered native americans. Also Libs: So lets have more illegal immigration.
The old guy at the end dampers the Greco-Roman spirit
This is an underrated movie. I've seen its entirety, and very well done.
Even the small parts of the senators played by fine British actors Eric Porter,Finlay Currie,and Douglas Wilmer
Some people just never learn their history.
This is happening to America right now.
Oikophobia - "the aversion to one's Home, own identity and society", creeps in paradoxically when a civilization reaches peak greatness
If the last of the "great emperors" that the old Senator served was Marcus Aurelius, then the Caesar sitting on that throne must be Emperor Commodus...oh shit...!
Spoiler:
This movie ends in a duel between Commodus and the General.
Sigh: worse yet, for some reason I thought Oliver Reed played the German chieftain. Kept smirking watching Gladiator for first time.
The production qualities on this film are so impressive.
Interesting debate. Amazing how their debates are so similar to ours. I think we can look to rome both for inspiration and warning.
A lot of great camera shots for a movie made in 1964
What a great empire Rome was ,& they fortified it by expansion,building magnificent roads all over their empire, granting citizenship to all those they had conquered. All of western Europe, Britain, & North Africa. What a people!
Tactic 101: have ugly, mean spirited actors play the roles you want viewers to hate and have genteel, noble looking actors play the roles you want them to support.
Wut, they look all good, the fuck you mean
@@PRubin-rh4sr Because you communicate like a Neanderthal, you are not eligible to participate in adult conversation.
Enjoy your time grunting back and forth with your fellow ignoramuses in the internet's gutter. I doubt you will ever graduate from it.
Somewhere, somehow, a Judean is involved.
They are everywhere
@Rick O'Shay 100% and one immediately pops up to diflect and divert.
@Rick O'Shay You have not debunked a single lie.
We're Jews, we're Jews in space
Zooming along
Protecting the Hebrew race
And its weapon of mass subversion of europeans: Christianity;
Christianity is a judean cult.
9:09
The nose know
Oy vey
@Rick O'Shay Quo Vadis is a better movie. But John Rhys-Davis (who plays Peter in 'The Redemption') is a better Peter.
It’s amazing how Rome became a vessel, upon which anyone has been able to project their own beliefs and values. The rise and decline of the Roman Empire becomes the authority by which we can confirm our own hopes and fears about the present, regardless of any correspondance to the real world.
Rome is the real world. In case you didn't notice it remains at the core of Western civilization. Rome's history has everything in it for those who want to avoid repeating some mistakes
It only concerns Europeans.
This is why during this period of great crisis, europeans identify all the more with their ancestors and the history of Rome.
"HONORABLE FATHERS...and senators of Rome. Have you heard....of the high elves?!"
LOVE it !!! Thank you so much.....
I never knew that the Roman Empire lasted until 1964
How subtle the tribe has been all this time. 110
This was a and is a great movie! Very depictive of the USA...
It could have been depective of the British empire.
And still such a relevant topic today!
Very, very timely! Exactly what is happening mainly in the US but the world in general. Beautiful!
You don’t see this type of acting anymore, this is start studded, classically trained actors who literally became the parts they played as if it were really their likeness.
That last speech given is so prophetic is hurts.
Cause it's the truth
I wonder if the speech made by James Mason was inspired, at all, by the potentially apocryphal story of Sun Tzu training a Royal Harem as soldiers.
The story goes that King Such-n-such ordered Sun Tzu to train his harem, all 180 women, to be soldiers, to be Palace Guards. Whether the King was serious or not, Sun Tzu took his orders seriously and went about it. He gathered the women for their first lesson. He ordered the first two women to stand to attention and to pick up their spears. The women made no real effort to comply, complaining of the heavy weight of the spears and at having to stand for so long. Sun Tzu ordered them again to stand to attention and to hold their spears. The women refused to move at all this time. Sun Tzu understood what was happening, so he inquired of the women if they understood what he was asking of them. They replied that they understood perfectly what he was asking, but that they nevertheless had no intention of complying. Sun Tzu summoned the guards and had both women executed by beheading. The other women assumed that this would be the end of Sun Tzu, since he had killed two of the King's harem and that they could end this silly crap about training to become soldiers. But when Sun Tzu explained his actions to the King, he wasn't punished and soldier-training for the harem continued.
I didn't remember the following well enough to recreate here, so I'll cut'n'paste it, so I don't leave out any important bits. In explaining his actions to the King, Sun Tzu said that "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame. But if his orders are clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." After the two recalcitrant women were beheaded, the remaining 178 women obeyed every order given to them by Sun Tzu.
Anyway, at about 3:30 here, it feels a bit like James Mason's lines were written by someone who was familiar with this story of Sun Tzu training an army of concubines. I suppose that there's no real way of knowing that, anymore. Not unless the writers left detailed written accounts of their inspiration for the script of this film...
What is so strong about the scene: Both sides had compeletely valid arguments.
Damn us, if we open the gates to our enemies, damn us, if we dont.
@Peter Rogan Caesar boasted of slaughtering a million Gauls in total, one third of the country's population. 'Teachings of Rome' you say
The verbal sparring is on point and had me gripped from start to finish. Also there are no quick cuts or music to make the scene more "dramatic", just great dialogue delivered by great actors. Modern directors should take notes.
The film does have historical inaccuracies but the self-serving malaise that fatally afflicted the Roman empire is well conveyed. As for the cast, Alec Guinness, Stephen Boyd, James Mason, Christopher Plummer, and Sophia Loren, to name only some. Ne plus ultra!